Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. Scott Durfee here joined as always by David Durfee. What's up Dave? Life's good Scott. Life is good. It's a great pleasure to be with you and spend an hour with our listeners. You know I was just reflecting, well this is a great time of the week for me or this hour. It's kind of a special time of the week for me.
And what a kind of a sweet period or time in my life when I focus on a podcast, focus on redemption and the Savior. And then to be in the temple two days a week using the sealing powers of the Melchizedek priesthood that have been delegated to me through President Nelson and the Seal families both living and dead for time and for all eternity fulfilling the promise and prophecy of Elijah. And Scott I don't know, I have no words to describe what a blessed sweet time in my life this is.
Well we both got to be part of a really sweet experience last night. A niece I guess of yours. Yeah, grand niece. Grand niece, that's right. I guess a second. You know in our family it's so weird because it's like and it's been this way since I was little you know I would see somebody who's a third or a fourth cousin and say and I'd be talking to them, Laura Way for example, Gilman, right? And I'd be talking to people and say hey who's that? You know because she was particularly very cute.
Still is obviously. I don't know if she listened to it out but people would say hey who's that? She's my cousin. Oh really is that one of Dennis's kids? No I guess she's my third or fourth. But because of our family and our parents, your dad started this you know we're so close to each other that we just. It wasn't the first, second or third. No we're just family. I don't know. Family. That's good. That's good. Yeah I think so too but what a sweet experience to be with sweet little Sadie.
Sadie is just going to be an absolute wonderful missionary in Hawaii. Yeah isn't that amazing? Going to Hawaii to the Hawaiian Temple, visitor center. Yeah, yeah tough duty. I just think that she'll be great for her. She'll be an amazing missionary. Look forward to her. She really will. Humble sweet family. Yeah we're in that time of year.
You know I know that we have listeners that tune in throughout the year so some of you will be listening to this in the summer and that's okay but you just have to bear with some of the commentary that we have because of this time of year.
You know Dave I know you probably too but we just have had one of the most amazing thanks giveings, our family Casey, my oldest daughter engaged over the weekend to just a wonderful young man who we're excited to have as part of our family and you know just a lot of great things. I know you had some wonderful stuff happen as well. Life is good and you know we're getting closer to Christmas and as we do that next week we should probably just kind of do a little Christmas podcast.
We're talking about the fall. We've been talking about that now for a few weeks. And I'd like to just maybe conclude and summarize and try to say with the thunder of Sinai, that's Elder Maconkey. Yeah but you say it well too. With all the thunder of Sinai, exclaim how important it is to understand the fall and we'll try to do that today. I do look forward to this will be our third time that we've done a Christmas episode. Can you believe we've been doing this for that long?
No. This will be our third Christmas. Yeah I know, awesome. I think so. And you know we will do just a special Christmas season. It'll be for the Christmas season in preparation for it. So anyway, well the last couple weeks we've been focusing on the fall of Adam and Eve. We've talked about how that is an important pillar. In fact it's one of the three pillars of eternity, the creation, the fall, the atonement. The pillars of the plan of salvation.
And the atonement of Jesus Christ being the third one in kind of a circular fashion. One not necessarily before the other. Probably preeminence belongs to the atonement of Jesus Christ in those three. But without either of the first two, even that wouldn't be possible or necessary. Both of those words apply here. But today we're going to move into, you know, we have a quote. I think I'm going to let you talk about the quote. It says, Louis, pretty famous philosopher Anglican by...
This is from his book called Miracles. Scott, I know as a missionary, you probably did this as a missionary. I think people still do this in Sunday school. When they talk about the fall, they kind of draw, right? They start ground level and then they show a big dip and they show Adam and Eve in the bottom of this big dip. Like a pit. Yeah, like a pit. Yeah. Yeah, they draw it like a pit and a pit in the ground, below ground.
And then they show a ladder or they show something going back up to ground level. Right? Yeah. That's kind of how they... People teach the fall. That's how we've kind of done it over the years. So when I read this quote by C.S. Lewis, I just really fell in love with it. And I hope our listeners can just get beyond the ground level pit, back to ground level understanding of the fall and the atonement. So let me read the quote. Okay. God is not merely mending, not simply restoring a status quo.
You're not just getting this back to ground level. Redeemed humanity is more glorious than unfallen humanity could have or would have ever been. I love that, Scott. We just do not understand and appreciate the real purpose of this fall and the fall and this mortal experience is such an important part of our progression. I mean, we should think of it as a fall forward, not a fall backward. We should think of it as a fall upward, not a fall downward.
Because of the fall, we have a redeemer, which then takes us even further up the mountain. So we shouldn't think of it about the fall as being the low ground level. The fall was part of God's plan and takes us up into the mountain, into the mountain of redemption. You know, that's how we should see it. Now, not without its prickly pears and its challenges and rocky crags and crooks and cliffs and all that stuff, right? Mortality is rough. But Scott, we're climbing. We didn't like fall in a pit.
I just don't think that's the way it should be displayed. I don't know how C.S. Lewis figured that out. I think the Bible makes it clear, but not as clear as the Book of Mormon. I mean, when Paul teaches, as an Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,
okay, but for C.S. Lewis to know that redeemed humanity is more glorious than unfallen humanity could have ever been, what he's really teaching there is to have a Savior is so much greater than if Adam and Eve would have stayed in the Garden of Eden and even if they could have had children. And again, we don't know if they couldn't or if they wouldn't. We know that they never would have had children.
But even if they could have had children and would have had children in the Garden of Eden, Scott, and we would have lived in the Garden of Eden, our lives and the state of our progression and the happiness and joy of our redemption would not be nearly as great as it is because of the fall and because of the Father sending His down and offering Him as a sacrifice.
I mean, the plan is perfect, Scott, and God knew that we would sin and He sent us down to a hellish, mortal, telestial state so that we could grow and when I say send down, I should again probably say He put us up. Elevated us.
He elevated us to a place where we could really be challenged and where we could really grow and where we could really exercise our agency, where we could be tested, where we could prove ourselves and learn to keep His commandments, but mostly learn to rely upon our Savior and Redeemer. And receive the gift and the giver of the gift. Yeah, exactly. That way. I love, you know, Adam and Eve had this same kind of awareness at some point, right?
They understood this, you know, after they had made sacrifices and had begun to live a life in mortality. You know, we read in the Pearl of Great Price in Moses chapter 5, verse, I'm going to start in verse 10. And so, one day Adam blessed God and was filled and began to prophesy concerning the families of the earth, saying, blessed be the name of God. And this is key. For because of my transgression, my eyes are opened and in this life I shall have joy. And again, in the flesh I shall see God.
That doesn't sound like a pit. It doesn't sound like a pit at all. And Eve makes it even, you know, as our wives do, they come in and make it even more beautiful. Yeah, right. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying, were it not for our transgression, we should have never had seed and never should have known good and evil. And I love this. And the joy of our redemption and the eternal life, which God giveth unto all the obedient. Yeah. It's awesome. They got it.
They understood it right there. They got it. Yeah. They got it. And I think we need to all celebrate the fall of Adam and Eve. And by the way, Scott, we're the only Christian church that believes that we should be celebrating the fall. We're really the only church that believes we should be celebrating our humanness, our natural man inclinations and all of that.
Other people, all commentaries that I've read, and there may be exceptions to this, but I'm not aware of any, all the commentaries I've read, man, it's, they're really down on Adam and Eve. And if Adam and Eve would have not given into the lost of the flesh, and we don't know anything about, you know, that really what happened and how the fall really took place.
I mean, the whole fruit thing, elder, president Oaks talks about it as, well, maybe it's a symbolism, maybe it's an allegory, maybe it's a metaphor. We don't really know what really happened or how it really took place. But that's how God wants to teach it is that they partook of fruit or whatever.
All we know is that they made a conscious decision and choice following the plan of God to multiply and replenish the earth and to come to a mortal state where all of that could be accomplished, making it possible for Jesus to come down as a human and as a God, flesh of Mary and spirit of God, and to be able to as a man, right, as a human, but deity that he would make the sacrifice, become our savior and redeemer and take us further up the mountain.
I just, I just wish that we wouldn't see ourselves in a pit because this, this was all part of the glorious plan of God. Eventually, when we, and for those of you who have been with us for past seasons, you know this, when we get into repentance, we're going to talk about what repentance is not. Well, let's, let's, we've talked about what the fall is not so far, right? I mean, we know that it's not punishment.
We know that it's, it's not the God's way of having to come up with a second or a backup plan, for example, you know, and Dave, you know, we're going to talk about, I think, six or seven things today that actually come as benefits to us or ways that our lives or our eternal lives even can be, can be enhanced through the fall of Adam and Eve, right? True doctrine understood changes behavior.
If we really understand the fall, Scott, if we really understood the doctrine of the fall, it would change us. Well, it would change our behavior. It would change how we, how we live, how we act, how we feel about ourselves, how we see ourselves and how we see others. It would change everything. It would change how it would change our worldview. Totally.
Because, well, think of this too, you know, and you've used the quote, I think you quote an elder pentagraph from the past when you, in the MTC, if I'm wrong, correct me on that. But when he said that gratitude is the beginning of desire, you know, and as we study the fall and as we understand the fall, then we have a deeper gratitude for the fall. And as I have a deeper gratitude for the fall, then I have a deeper desire to put on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And that comes for a long reason.
And then my gratitude for the Atonement of Jesus Christ increases because I know of my need for Redeemer. And as my gratitude for the Atonement of Jesus Christ increases, then my desires increases and it goes on and on and on. And on and on. Like a helix. Right. And we probably don't even know where that concludes. In fact, it probably, for eternity, won't, right? But gratitude is the beginning. So I hope we can be grateful, be grateful for the fall.
And we've listed some lessons that we want to make sure that our listeners don't miss in our gratitude and in our understanding of the fall of mankind. So, number one, I think I don't necessarily need to put a number bullet point to these, but maybe our listeners like numbers.
Number one, knowing that it was God's plan that we fall in sin should help us to be more kind to ourselves and to others, more patient to ourselves and to others and to others and more compassionate to ourselves to ourselves and to others, right? Knowing that we are fallen. That's how we should feel about it is that, hey, none of us, none of us are free from the fall. We all have inclinations. We all have tendencies. We all have temptations. We're all going to sin. I'm never free from it.
I'm never totally free from the fall. We can talk about being born again and that we can become like a child, right? The natural man is an enemy to God. I know all that. But as long as you're in this life, you feel the effects of the fall every day and we see sin every day and we are tainted by sin every day. And we sin every day. Right about trying to be perfect. We're not even sinless. We can never be sinless.
So anyway, there's so many and I don't know, we'll maybe talk about sin when we talk about repentance because there are sins of omission. There are sins of commission and we're just, we never do everything we know we should and we never completely stop in this life doing things we know we shouldn't. So you know, we should let some of that go and we should just be more kind without being complacent in sin. I'm not talking about being complacent.
I'm just saying when you understand the real, total, comprehensive effects of the fall on all of us individually, we should just be more kind to ourselves, more compassionate, more patient towards ourselves. You know, we talk about and we hear about every day if we look for it, you know, there's people that are telling us and encouraging us, hey, you know, just be a little more compassionate. Just have a little more compassion. Just try to be a little more understanding.
And I think one of the things that humanly, you know, some of us are predisposed to do is to just think that everybody's experience is probably just like mine. Yeah. Right? We should all be probably the same. We have a conscious, that's not a cognizant effort or activity that we engage in for that force to come by that conclusion. But I think just by nature, we kind of do. However, our, all of us are experiencing the fall of Adam and Eve in different ways. Yeah, for sure.
It's having a different degrees of difficulty. Exactly. And the parable of Elder Maxwell, different degrees of difficulty. The diver, I don't know if you remember that. I don't. But he tells a story about the diver who, who was just perfected at entering the water and not making a splash. Because he knew how to point his toes and he knew how to stretch out and he could dive. He could make these simple dives so beautifully without a splash.
And he was in this diving competition once and he, he, you know, felt really good about it because he, the, there was one guy that was leading him in this diving competition. He made this tumbling, high double triple somersault, twisting in the air and he comes down and makes a, this big splash. And the guy, the guy thinks, oh man, I got him because I didn't make any splash.
And the judges, when they, when they showed the results, this man had made a lot of splash, beat this kid who could point his toes and no splash. And he was so upset about it. He went, what, how can that be? He went over to the judges and started to complain. And one judge just looked at him and he said, son, degree of difficulty, degree of difficulty. Well, a lot of us in this life make a lot bigger splash than others because of the degree of difficulty of our life. Yeah. That's true.
And God takes the judge, takes all of that into consideration. I've always loved that little parable by Elder Maxwell. But I'm going to use that. I do love that. Well, and it's applicable.
You know, we have this experience and, you know, for us to have a deeper compassion, a deeper, to be, for me, you know, to be kinder and all of these other things, you know, it does require us to understand, well, I should say, if we do understand that the fall was part of God's plan, that it makes it a lot more consumable for me, a lot more palatable for me, a lot more, a lot easier for me to take that on and make it a part of my life. Yeah. All right. And I think I just made a mistake, Scott.
I think that's not Elder Maxwell. I think that's Stephen Robinson. Okay. So just off the top of my hand, I didn't plan to share that. But I think that's Stephen Robinson. He was the diver that could point his toes and it wasn't so much parable, but a true story. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. I think that's Stephen Robinson. So anyway, for our listeners, they can maybe look that up. So Scott, let's go to number two.
Understanding the fall and knowing that we are all lost and fallen and can merit nothing of ourselves should humble us and help us to rely wholly and completely upon Jesus Christ and His Atonement for redemption. I mean, that's, that's just so sweet, right? That we do not have to depend on, I don't have to depend on you. I can't even depend on me to save myself. Now, I know it says, work out your own salvation.
I know Paul says that in Philippians and that's other places in the scriptures, Book of Mormon and other standard works. But what that really means, working out your own salvation, it's a different work, as Adam Miller puts it, it's a different work of a different kind, learning to rely upon Jesus Christ and not ourselves. It is taught over and over again in the Book of Mormon. In fact, it's one of my favorite scripture chains is that man can merit nothing of himself.
We have, we can make choices, but the only choice that really matters is ultimately who we choose as our Redeemer and to choose Christ as our Savior because we, we are just helpless without Him. And I think that's just so awesome to know that, that we get a point, we get at a point going up the mountain where we just, we recognize, okay, I can't go any further. I can't progress from here without Jesus Christ.
And that should be the real lesson, I guess, that we should take from the fall and the Heavenly Father and all the prophets want us to take from the fall. I mean, when Lehi teaches us, we read the scripture, when Lehi teaches us, first place that it appears in the Book of Mormon, right, is in 1 Nephi, when Lehi says that we're all fallen and because we're all fallen, God sent the Messiah Redeemer.
That's what we should take from when we think of the fall is that in the next, very next thought, we should bow our head and say, thank you and think of our Redeemer. Okay, so that's number two, number three, understanding the fall helps us to know who we really are and to celebrate our humanness, our human experience and the human condition that we live in, knowing that Christ has redeemed us and that the fall was an essential part of the plan of redemption.
I just think it's so sad that people do not celebrate this condition that we live in. Now, I know we are not free from our challenges that comes up in another one of these lessons we should learn from the fall. We're never going to be free from some of those challenges and opposition. The law of opposition will always be present with us, but wow, we should accept that. Not only accept it, we should celebrate that because Christ covered it.
Couldn't celebrate it if there was no hope of moving on and progressing and elevating above that, but it's only by our choice of receiving the Redeemer that we're able to. So let's go to number four. Everything that God knew we would send, right, because of the fallen conditions we'd be born into, should help us to know He is not ever mad at us when we sin.
Kind of looking back on that patriarchal blessing I gave that we told the story about the girl and I knew I had to tell her, God has never been mad at you, even though she'd had two children out of wedlock and had to go to church for 16 years. Anyway, I'm going to repeat this number four. Knowing that God knew we would sin because of the conditions we would be born into should help us to know He is not ever mad at us.
Without forgetting, now again, we should never forget, having said that, that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Doctrine Covenants section one. God is the ultimate example, therefore, of hating all sin, yet loving all sinners. He knew we would, Scott. We're His children and He sent us down here knowing we would sin. It was all part of the plan. He loves us even in our sins. He loves us. It's not something that we earn. We don't earn His love.
And finally, He loved us so much that because of the fall, part of the plan, He offered His son to come down here and to sacrifice for our sins and carry out the atonement. So that's a big one, I think number four is really big. It can just kind of change how you see your relationship with God, how you see God. That's everything, right? Well, it is. And that's one side of the coin. On the other side of the coin, it might actually help how I see my relationship with others.
Specifically, and this is where I'm thinking. Yeah, that God's not mad at your kids. That's it. That's exactly what I was just thinking of. Because that's on all of our minds a lot of the time, right? So if God knew that I would sin and He's not mad at me, then what puts me in a position to be mad at my kids when they sin? That's a little bit, you know, that just makes me a little uncomfortable to think, OK, why would I be OK to tread in that area when God doesn't even? I know.
The wrath of God is real. I think I said this in a previous. The wrath of God is real, but it's not His personal emotion. The wrath of God is because of what people do collectively. What people do collectively and how it affects unborn innocent babies who are born into that situation. People may feel the wrath of God, but that's not His personal emotion. That's what He does. His wrath is what He does. Not what He feels. Not who He is. God is love. I think that's important. I do, too.
Number five, understanding the fall of all should help us to overcome the false philosophies of perfectionism and meritocracy. Wow, the two apostate doctrines that hold us back. Do you think we could do an entire podcast just? I don't want to. Sure. I don't want to. I'm just saying. I'd be pretty negative. I'm just saying that we definitely could. Because David, this is something that has permeated the entirety, I think, of the human race. This meritocracy and perfectionism.
For example, if you think about even think of the parable of the prodigal son. When we think of the parable of the prodigal son, well, we think, well, the brother that was all ticked off because he was a righteous brother. So he dealt with perfectionism. Right. But guess what? So did the prodigal. The prodigal was also in effect at dealing with perfectionism because he didn't see himself worthy to come back and do and accept his father's offering, which was given to him so freely.
And when we talk about perfectionism, and I'm going to use the word scrupulosity, where we worship our scrupulosity, how well are you keeping the commandments? Are you going on your mission? You've got to be scrupulous. Did you get your duty to God? Did you get your Eagle Scout? Those kinds of things, right? That can really jump in front of us in our pursuit developing and having that close relationship with our Heavenly Father through us. No doubt.
I know that it's a whole human race, but I think it especially affects sometimes members of the church. It does. Yeah. I know that the brethren are trying to overcome that false philosophy of perfectionism and meritocracy. And I think we're doing a lot better about it. I mean, grace and mercy are so much more prevalent in conference talks than they were back in the 1950s and 60s and even 70s. And that's what we probably needed, right? At the time, that was fine.
But honestly, Scott, it just, I don't know. It just seems like, again, I alluded to this last week or the week before, we're all trying so hard to be like Jesus. And yet at the same time, we need to know we're never going to in this life be like Jesus. Right. I mean, we do give heed to temptation, which he never gave heed to, even though he suffered all temptation and we'll talk about that when we talk about his atonement. But we just are always going to come up short.
And it's not only, I'll repeat, it is not only not possible to be perfect in mortality. It's not perfect to live a day and be sinless in mortality. Not possible. It's not possible. We're tainted by sin every day. Yeah. And now I know the Greek word for perfection is whole, complete.
And if you want to think of it that way, when Jesus commands us to be perfect, even as his father, and then in the Book of Mormon, to be perfect, even as he's perfect, it's interesting that he doesn't say he's perfect in the New Testament, but he does say he's perfect in the Book of Mormon because he's been resurrected.
But if you want to think of perfect as being complete or whole, and that we're becoming more complete and we're becoming more whole, but the truth of it is, Scott, President Nelson, others, perfection is pending. We are not going to be perfect in this life. Give it up. Stop it. Stop trying to be perfect. Now, again, I'm not saying we should be complacent. I'm not saying that. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying we should be complacent or casual.
We should live a life, a charted, chart our course. We should be intentional, all of that. But, well, we should just not be so hard on ourselves or others. And meritocracy, to think that we merit anything, that we, meritocracy is a little bit like we think we deserve it. We're entitled to it. I've earned it. I've earned it. And it's kind of the vending machine gospel that Elder Christopherson and others have talked about where you think, okay, I put in my dollar. I should get out the candy bar.
I guess it's probably $2 now, inflation. But I put in my $2 and I used to be a quarter, by the way. I remember that. How come I don't get, anyway, meritocracy can really lead. It can lead people to really emotional, spiritual dungeons and put them in a really dark place because we just, man can merit nothing of himself. We are completely holy, absolutely dependent upon Jesus Christ and his merits. And if you don't understand the fall.
And if you don't understand five, number five here, you know, number five being understanding the fall should help us overcome the false philosophies of perfectionism and meritocracy. If you don't understand that, then number four is really difficult to understand too, which is again, just to reiterate, knowing that God knew we would sin should help us know he is not mad at us when we sin. Those things are really, all of these tie together. But those two really kind of are true. You know, yeah.
All right. Number six, understanding the fall should help us to not make the mistake of solely basing our identity upon the temptations, perversions and weaknesses of the flesh and sins that we experience immortality. We are spiritual beings having a human experience and we are human beings having a spiritual experience. We're both. Yeah. We are dual beings, Scott. Dual citizenship. That has been taught by all the prophets.
We are we are dual beings and in fact, the elder bednar said said this, Scott, in the 2013 General Conference, April, the precise nature of the test of mortality then can be summarized in the following question. Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ, the Lord? Right? And then there's Josiah, King Benjamin, Josiah 319. He, the elder bednar goes on.
That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop God like qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh. Now again, we won't be perfect in that, but that's the quest. That's the test. That's what we should be striving for. I told you today I can't have any of your M&M peanuts when I came in here today.
Because I just, I just have become weak over Thanksgiving at eating too much sugar. And so I just, I just got to have a little, a little check of the flesh here, a little flesh check and I'm just saying, okay, come on, David, spirit over flesh here, no more sugar today. So today. Listen to you. Today I can't have any sugar. You're just doing it one day at a time, are you? I am. That's all I can do, Scott. Yeah, that's awesome. What day at a time? But that's the test.
Is that we learn in this life. And hey, this isn't a pit. It's not an exciting adventure. This puts us up in the mountains of adventure here, Scott, is that we have this test, this climb of trying to learn how to allow the spirit to control and override the flesh.
Yeah. Well, just think of, if understanding this, we've talked about six points so far, we've got one more to talk about, but just, if we just understand these seven points, just think of how that unburdens us, it relieves that burden from us of all of that weight. There's a ton of weight in all of that, not understanding who we are. Weight. My merit, not his, weight. W-E-I-G-H-T. Weight on my shoulders, all of that. Not understanding who I am completely. That's a weight.
Knowing that God's plan of the fall should help me be more kind to myself. Without that, I have weight. So all of this unburdens me or unloads that weight from me if, and that's it, right? Here's the key. Hopefully. Here's the key. If I embrace it and accept that into my life that way. Instead of seeing it as a challenge, you should see it as an opportunity. And a great blessing. Yeah. Yeah. The fall forward. Yep. The fortunate fall. Yep. Right? The fortunate fall. The fall forward.
The fall upward. The fall upward. Fall upward, not downward. Yeah. We should celebrate this. Yeah. As part of the plan's gotten. Anyway. Number seven. Understanding the fall helps us explain a lot of mortalities, problems, and issues that we all face. And it seems like we increasingly face some of these situations and problems, right?
Such as physical challenges, mental incapacities, inequities, inequalities, unfairness of life, the imperfections that we all see every day in ourselves and others. And even sexual issues and sexual tendencies and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right? If we really understand the fall, Scott, we should not be surprised by some of these weaknesses of the flesh. I give unto men weakness, right? Ether 1227. I give unto men weakness.
That's the fall that they might be humble and that they might learn that my grace is sufficient and that this is me saying it and that they need to rely upon Jesus Christ's grace as our redeemer and Savior. So I just think there are so many things that we deal with. And as a parent and dad of a gay son, Scott, I don't know if he was born with that or if he developed that because of the conditions that he was born into.
I don't know if he was born with it or it's something that is learned because of the conditions and the availability. Well, the good news is, is you don't have to figure that out. I'm not as judge. No. And even though- I'm his dad. I'm not as judge. Even those few seconds that you just wrestled with that, you don't need to do that. Yeah, you're right. We don't need to do that. Thank you. It doesn't matter if he was born with it. Thank you. It doesn't matter if it was nature or nurture.
It doesn't matter. That's a moot point. And Satan would have us wrestle with and strife with that issue so that we miss the important part of that, which is it doesn't matter. I remember when I was the Institute Director, we had Elder Christopherson's brother come to the Institute to do a fireside. And he's openly gay. I mean- I think he even written a book. Now, he's not acting out on it. He's not.
He's a strong, active member of the church with church callings and is in full good standing of the church. But, you know, he lived a gay lifestyle for many years. I think it was like 15 or something years. And one of our teachers asked them about being born into it or developing it, you know? And I will never forget his answer, which was it doesn't matter. I'm so glad he said that. And to focus on that would be counterproductive. To focus on that would be totally counterproductive.
It doesn't matter. And I might even suggest it wouldn't only be counterproductive, but it would be orchestrated by the diabolic- Yeah, you're even stronger than him. But that meant a lot to me coming from him. I mean, he believed that he was born into it. And there are, I'm sure, others who do believe that. And my son believes that and his mother believes that. But I don't know. We don't have to know. It doesn't matter. We're not the judge. We are not. But God knows. Right.
And if some of these things, God, are in fact the result of the fall, this is the good news. The atonement of Jesus Christ covers and overcomes unconditionally, I may say, all the negative effects of the fall. Now that doesn't mean that we will not be held accountable and that there aren't commandments that we need to keep.
It means that God will compensate them, that God will strengthen them, that God will bless them with all the grace and mercy they need in spite of their fallen nature, propensities, tendencies, inclinations, whatever. If we rely upon the atonement of Jesus Christ, he will restore us. He will cover us. He will compensate us. He will save us and he will redeem us. That's what we have to focus on.
And not get so hung up on all of these mortality, malaise, mortality issues, inequities and inequalities. Let's not get hung up on that. Let's just, when we see that, we should just remind ourselves Jesus Christ covers all of it and it's not our place to judge. I mean we can judge good from evil. We have to make those judgments. But we do not judge individuals. And we don't know all the reasons and all of the situations and conditions that people are born into.
We don't know all the answers to that, Scott. And so we need to let it go and rely upon, again, learn to rely upon for ourselves and for others that the Savior covers that. That's right. So because of the fall, we have two problems. It's really one problem. It's death. But we can split those into two problems. These are the two major negatives, universal negatives. We have spiritual death. We have physical death. Spiritual death is we're cut off from the presence of God.
So a lot of the stuff that we talked about so far as part of these seven points come as a result of the spiritual death. We're spiritually dead. I mean in the world that we live in. Yeah, in that we've been cut off from the direct presence of God. And then the second one is physical death. And so much of what you just talked about, what we've just talked about here, fall into either one or both and sometimes one or the other and sometimes both of those categories.
For example, when we talked about mental, we made a little list here and it's by far from being completely inclusive. We said physical. So physical, let's talk about some of those. Physical challenges can be anything that ails us, even diseases. I have a daughter. My second oldest daughter is type one diabetic for her entire life since she was nine years old. She's reliant on a shot more than one time a day, several times a day just to keep her alive. So that's a direct result of the fall.
I know others that I sponsor, myself can be included in this. People in the Institute, people in my own family that deal with mental things. Whether that be... Sure. And when we're talking about... Anxieties, depressions. Well, okay, so that's a mental and emotional when we combine them together, those kinds of things and those are a direct result of the fall of being cut off from our Heavenly Father's presence. Right. And that can come as part of not just spiritual but physical death.
And you can go through, and I think I said this last week, that there's literally every problem that we face in this world that has to do with mortality. We can definitely link it back to spiritual or physical or both deaths. And if we understand that, then with that comes the compassion and all of the other things that we're talking about here. But first off, and hopefully, number one, it's compassion for ourselves and understanding all of that.
And the only reason you would feel like any of that puts you in a pit is because you don't understand that the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers it. When you understand that the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers it, compensates for it, will overcome it. Wow. Those things can actually be blessings to us. This is why he says, and again in Ether 1227, that if men humble themselves before me and have faith in me, I will make weak things. Become strong unto them. That's what we've got to focus on.
And I have felt that in my life. I know you have too. Yeah, for sure. You know, I know, and I would venture a guest to say that most of our listeners have probably felt that in our lives at some point as well. But that's available to us all the time. Well, again, and when I say we're spiritually dead, Scott, I know we can be alive in Christ. Absolutely. You know, as mortals who are spiritually cut off from the presence of God, we don't have to be spiritually dead to righteousness.
We don't have to be spiritually dead to the Savior or the Holy Spirit. We can be born again, spiritually born again. And I get that. And that we should be spiritually alive in Christ. But again, as long as we're here and as long as blood is coursing through our veins, we are going to feel the effects of the flesh and the fall. Brigham Young said, we will never in this life completely overcome it. So I just pray we can endure to the end.
And I know that's true for apostles and prophets and all those who have walked the earth. Even Jesus, even Jesus felt the full effects of the false God, but he never gave heed to temptations. Now, I will talk about that more. I guess I don't want to go off on that, but we'll talk more about that when we talk about his life in the next few weeks. Well, speaking of Jesus and his life, Jesus shares with us. Good Samaritan. Yeah, the rich young ruler, you know, says, what do I have to do?
I keep all the commandments, you know, and Jesus says, well, you have to love God and you have to love your neighbors yourself. And he asked, well, who's my neighbor? Right. And this is all I think in Luke 10. Jesus gives this amazing parable of the Good Samaritan. Oh, I'm indebted to John Welch and his research on this and an article that was written years ago in the, in the Enzine magazine that the Good Samaritan not only answers the question of who's your neighbor, right?
The Samaritans, Jews hated one another. And so it's a perfect parable, beautiful parable to answer who's our neighbor. All of everyone's our neighbor. Even if we all, we shouldn't have enemies, but even our enemies, we should see as neighbors. Anyway, but John Welch discovered in the stained glass window and other research he did in Europe that the early Christian fathers, Scott, recognized this parable as being Jesus's way to teach the young rich ruler and others the plan of redemption.
And he was trying to teach all of us in the parable of the Good Samaritan that the Samaritan goes down out of Jerusalem. Do you have it there? Is it Luke 10? Yeah, Luke 10. Beginning with verse. Verse 25. And so a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And he said unto him, what is written in the law, how readest thou?
And he answering said, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy strength and thou shalt and with all thy mind. That's the first great commitment. Yep. Okay. And thy neighbor as I self. Second great commitment. And he said unto him, thou hast answered right, this do and thou shalt live. But he willing to justify himself said unto Jesus and who is my neighbor.
And Jesus answering said, a certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves which stripped him of his raiment and wounded him and departed, leaving him half dead. So this, this man that, that leaves Jerusalem to go down, he goes down out of Jerusalem. This is this, this is a symbol. And again, early Christian fathers understood this. This is a symbol of the fall. They leave the, the holy city on the hill, Jerusalem's up on a hill, Scott.
And they, they leave there and they, they descend thousands of feet down towards Jericho and towards the Dead Sea. So they're coming down out of Jerusalem, down to the Dead Sea or the Jericho area, lowest part of place on earth, by the way. And this is symbolic of us coming down from heaven to mortality. This represents the fall of all. So continue. So he left him half dead. And by chance and half dead, meaning we're all beaten up. Yep. And that's a result of all. We're all attacked.
We're all, we're all attacked. We're all robbed. We're all victimized. We're all abused. We're all, okay. That's just, that's just the worldly hellish conditions of mortality that we're born into, which is again part, all part of the plan. We're all beaten up. We're all bloody. And I love, I love the word half dead, especially in light of what we just talked about a few minutes ago. We are. Right. Because we suffer from the spiritual and the physical death.
I hope I'm more alive in Christ than I am dead, but I am half dead. Yeah. We all are to a degree. We're, we all are to a degree dead because of the fall of Adam and Eve. 31. And by chance, there came down a certain priest that way. And when he saw him, he passed by him on the other side. And then the priest represents the law, particularly in this time of the parable was given the law of Moses, but that's, that's the symbol. The, the, the priest represents the law. So the priest didn't save him.
Yeah. And likewise, a Levite, when he was at that place, came and looked upon him and passed by on the other side, the priest can't save you. The law can't save you. In other words, the Levite can't save you, meaning the priesthood can't save you. We're not saved through the priesthood. We're not saved through the church. We're not saved through that. Okay. Continue. But a certain Samaritan as he journeyed came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion.
And it's so interesting that Jesus chooses to use the Samaritan to symbolize himself. The good Samaritan himself comes and what does he do? They went unto him and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine and sent him on his own beast. Yeah. Carried him himself. You're right. He, he picked him up. He put him on his own beast, carried him himself and brought, brought him to an end and took care of him.
And the end represents the church and it goes on and says, he even gave money and tells the innkeeper, Hey, if you need anything else, here's some money to cover it. Well, that's the savior. The savior has purchased us. The certain, the savior has paid for us. He's paid for all of our abuse, all of our victims and for, for all the sins committed against us. He's paid for all of that. Scott, that's, that's the, so ultimately when we read the good Samaritan, we should answer two questions.
One, who is my neighbor? And second, where am I in the plan of redemption? Where am I? Have I allowed the savior to pick me up, to bind my wounds? And has he carried me to the end? And am I recovering? Am I healing? Am I, am I striving? I mean, that's, that's a powerful symbol of the, of the fall and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I think we can be complete unless we read the final verse of that, in fact, a final tune.
Now Jesus asked this certain lawyer, now which of these thinkest thou was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, he that showed mercy unto him, and Jesus said unto him, and this is charged for all of us. Jesus said unto him, he says unto us as well, go and do thou likewise. Yeah. Well, ultimately I hope that's what we get out of understanding the fall, Scott.
And under to understanding the Atonement that will think of that parable and that charge to go do likewise and to become more like the Good Samaritan and help others bind up their wounds. And knowing that many of those wounds were not self inflicted. Many of those wounds, I know we have agency and that will be accountable and that we again should not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. But the truth is we've all been robbed. We've all been beaten.
And we should remember that when we think of the fall. And we should allow Jesus to pick us up. And sometimes we should be the hands in the arms and the beasts of Jesus and allow Jesus through us to help transport people to a place where they can be further healed. So I hope that's what our listeners will take from the fall. People probably continue to fall back on this doctrine because I think to really understand, appreciate, be grateful for the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
You have to understand your need for a Redeemer, which means you have to understand the fall. So we'll try to remind ourselves and our listeners of that as we continue on through the other podcast, future podcast as we move into the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Well, I think we've kind of established a real good foundation from which to build now as we do exactly that.
Dave, you know, in the beginning today, we talked about how the fall of Adam and Eve provides each one of us an opportunity for joy and for expansion of our spiritual lives and through eternity. And I hope that each one of us can see ourselves in the parable that we just read, the parable of the Good Samaritan. I hope that we can see ourselves as he who fell among thieves.
We are the one that descended and we are the one who is completely reliant on he, the Good Samaritan, on Jesus Christ, who picks us up, who puts us on his doctrine, who puts us on his answer, who puts us on his law, which satisfies all the law and will bring us ultimate joy. Thanks so much for being with us, everybody. Glad you were with us this week. We look forward to being with you again next week. And until then, be well.