Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood season four. This is Scott Durfey, and I'm joined, as always, by the beautiful Debra Durfey. What's up, Deb? Hello, friends. So it's good to be with you tonight, babe. It's been kind of a crazy day. We're recording this on a Monday night. We just yesterday went through a very peaceful, wonderful Sunday experience partaking of the sacrament. I got to teach a gospel doctrine lesson on Doctrine and Covenants
46, 47, and 48, which was a lot of fun. I love doing that because I get to learn so much. But my highlight yesterday, Doug, was partaking the sacrament, taking the sacrament. I just look forward to that every week, and I haven't always. One of the things that's really kind of, I think, helped to grow that feeling within me over the last several years has been doing this, doing
what we're doing here today. It's interesting because I was thinking of that same thing probably the majority of the times we sing the sacramental hymns, you and I both weep, and we pull out our Kleenex. And a few months ago, we were asked to speak on the importance of the sacrament. We did a deep dive into the importance of the sacrament. And as we were sitting on the stage, you know, to be, to speak, and they sing the
sacramental hymn, we both just wept. And I think my first counselor in the primary presidency said, I just thought something bad had happened. And I thought, you know, for decades, years and years and years, I took that sacred, sacred time for granted. And it was just one of those things that it's like, okay, let's be reverent, think about Jesus. And, you know, the deeper dive that we do into the atonement of Jesus Christ, the more I really appreciate my Savior. And those
songs are so moving. The words that, upon the cross of Calvary, they crucified our Lord. I mean, there's, and then torn broken. I mean, there's so many words that are so descriptive, but yet penetrate to the fleshy tables of my heart. It affects me. Yeah. Why is that the case? Do you think? Well, I think for one, I have put forth effort to really understand the atonement
of Jesus Christ. I know for a fact I did not understand it and I still, I don't claim that I do understand it a hundred percent, but I understand it more fully and I've lived. I've lived life, you know, a few decades, quite a few decades and I have really had to understand and apply, you know, Repentance, I really had to redefine repentance. Understanding it the way I did as
a youth is very, very different. The way that I understand it today, for the simple fact is understanding the fall, understanding that we are here and sin will forever be part of this mortal world. It will always be part of this mortal world. And I think understanding that helped me have a little bit more understanding for my dependency on the Savior. That's exactly how it is for me too. Especially today, I have
been just so reflective. Somebody who's really important to me, who has battled addiction and the various things that come with it and has had to deal with the various consequences of it and so on. Not much unlike myself 26 something years ago. But this person will be picking up a two -year medallion tomorrow in alcoholics. Yeah, exactly. But this person is really up against the effects of the fall. That's the interesting
thing about this kind of thing, Deb. You know, so often, and I know that you've also been privy to these types of experiences, but so often sometimes we think, well, The fall is coming down around me and when I say the fall is coming down around me that can look like so many different things that we're going to be talking about as you can tell the fall of Adam and Eve once again tonight. We may even carry this into next week. It's that
important and we'll talk about you. I think you'll understand why it's that important as we go through this, but. As I go through my life and as things would come crashing down, you know, usually based on dumb decisions I had made or something like that. But when life got really difficult for me and there was just no place for me to go because I had just burned everything down around me, so to speak, I knew that I couldn't anymore. Of myself, I was completely powerless over my
entire life. So I made a decision to turn my will in my life over to the care of God as I understand him. And I did that through entering Alcoholics Anonymous and other recovery programs, which for me is a way also to access the spirit and to have those kinds of blessings in my life. But as I did that, I recognized how broken and beat up and just beat down I was. And then I
got sober. And then I thought, well, and not unlike a lot of others, and this is my point, well, I'm getting sober now, everything should be fine. Heavenly Father should be blessing me now. All those things, all those bills I neglected to pay, they should just go away. All of the other things that I neglected should just go away. The relationships that I damaged, they should just instantly be better. And I know that there's a bit of hyperbole in what I'm saying
here, but just a bit. Sometimes I think that, you know, and I've done those rescue type of repentances as well, you know, where something goes wrong or I'm compelled for whatever reason to go running to the bishop and do what I thought in that at that time in my life was actual repentance, which I've learned since that it's not, but to to go running and because my world's crashing down around me. And then I'm surprised when everything
just doesn't all of a sudden get better. I've come to find out that the fall of Adam and Eve is obviously the reason that we deal with a lot of these different things, but the fall of Adam and Eve, the offset to the fall of Adam and Eve doesn't just necessarily sometimes happen in an instant, in a second, in a night, in a day, in a week, in a month, and so on. So I have a question. I mean, you were raised as an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ. of Latter
-day Saints I should complete. Why do you think you learned more about the fall and the atonement of Jesus Christ entering the rooms of recovery rather than in primary and young men, young women? Or did you? Yeah, I did. I absolutely did. And this is kind of key. This is an individual thing. And I'm not saying this is not a prescription. I'm not saying that it has and it should be this way for everybody. because it shouldn't be and
it's not for those. Anyway, the reason that that actually helped for me, Deb, is for some reason, I just needed an absolute obvious two by four to the side of the head that life would give me by way of my addiction. And you know, it was a choice. I'm not saying that my there's debate around this and I'm not going to have it with
anybody. I have my own views on it. But there's debate around whether this was something that I had agreed to do before I came to Earth or not, you know, and various things like that. And I'm not getting into that. That's not the point. The point is, is it's not me, it's him. That was why it was so important for me, I guess, I don't know, but it was that's why it was so important for me to get that understanding the
way I got it. Because I just had to absolutely have absolutely zero question in my mind that I had any control left. I know that there's a lot of people who don't need to be bloodied and pummeled and and I know that but for me I for whatever reason Personality, I don't know for whatever reason and again, you know trying to figure out all the particulars around those things is just a waste for me understanding The solution
is the is that is the direction for me? That's the journey right and perhaps I mean going to the come follow me this last week Maybe the gift of the spirit I mean some of us learn through actual events and sometimes we have the gift of learning through our experiences and some of us have the gift of learning vicariously through other people's. That doesn't seem to have been my lot, babe. Well, you haven't experienced absolutely everything. I understand. There's things that
you do. I definitely say that. I just remember asking the question last, you asked the question last week at Institute about how many of us here have... have, and I don't remember the exact question, but something to the effect of can resist temptation. What was that question? Yeah, the question was, I asked them, I said, how many of you find it very easy to keep all of the commandments? Oh, yeah. And there were a lot of hands. Almost every hand. I was jaw dropped. I was like, wow,
I think we're teaching the wrong crowd. Yeah. And then I I don't know did I ask gift of obedience I I mean I just think of their spiritual gifts to have that gift of obedience I know and then you asked another question and I don't remember exactly what it was, but I you know, I think understanding that some of us have the gift of discernment, some of us have the gift of obedience, some of us have the gift of listening and learning.
Whatever that is, I too am one of those that get to learn by universal two -by -fours to the forehead and have life experiences really beat the ever -loving crap out of me and bruise and tear me up. And I think that's why those words penetrate so deep is because I have pictures now to go with those words. Not to the effect that the Savior does, of course. But I know what it's like to be bruised and battered. But you
have a different perspective. Sure. And that's the whole point behind understanding and learning about the fall of Adam and Eve is to gain the perspective that you just articulated, Deb. Right. Well, and ironically enough, there are days, and today is one of them, that I am grateful for my challenges. I am grateful for those things that I went through that beat the everloving snot out of me. I really am. Today I'm grateful. When I was going through it, I was not grateful.
And I really thought I was being picked on, and I thought I was having a job experience. And I thought there were a lot of days that felt... unfair and not fun and not, I mean, I just felt really picked on. But today when I look back and I literally can see the hand of God in every single experience I went through, it's, they say, you know, looking back you, 2020, what is it? Hindsight's 2020. Hindsight's 2020. But 2020 was such a crazy year. I don't even like to use
that. You're glad it's in our hindsight. But honestly, in pushing pause and just reflecting and seeing why all of those things were for my highest and greatest good and my learning was such a gift. And God literally was in those details. So what makes you different? Because it's different. Right? I mean, we have to just, let's just acknowledge the fact right now that not everybody sees it
that way. Not everybody goes through the same experience and comes out on the other side with the same glowing optimism today that you have around your challenges, Deb. So what makes a difference? I don't necessarily feel that I'm better or bigger. I don't have that at all. I don't hear you saying that either. But what is different? I honestly feel like the difference is because I had, I like me if I had goodly parents
that taught me as a child. And I knew to seek for a higher, I mean, there are definitely times when I made terrible choices and I consciously knew these were terrible choices when I was making them. But I knew that also that there was a path of repentance that I could go on. I didn't think it would be that. I didn't understand that at the time. But back to your question, what makes me different? I honestly can't answer that. You know what it is for me? What? And I know you,
you'll probably say, oh, yeah, definitely. But what I think it is is I just, yeah, they're my own choices. And so when I say. You know, I got beat up. A lot of people take offense to that. They're like, you didn't get beat up. You beat yourself up. So say it however you want it. I'm fine with it. I don't care. However it is that you want to say this, you say it the way you want to say it. But I was so beat up and I was so breathless and I was so ready to just literally,
and I'm not, this is not hyperbole. I was just so ready to be done, done, done, done, done, done, done. And, and That's when I surrendered. That's when I said, I can't do this anymore. That's when God stepped in and provided for me a way to the Savior in that moment. I had I had
that remember last week. We talked about the gift of desperation It is truly a gift and I was desperate and a lot of times I think that there and this is to our listeners for those of you who are feeling Desperately beat down and beat up and just I can't do this anymore The fall of Adam and Eve is just absolutely kicking me to the curb I just can't do this anymore for those of you who are feeling that That's the
perfect timing. This is when when we, and Deb, you'll explain this to us, but this is when our hearts are broken enough now that that broken heart, he can enter in. Talk to us a little bit about broken heart and how all that works and how this applies to this, Deb. Well, it has been really clear to me that when... I get down to that. I get to that point of I am powerless. Sometimes it's a choice. Sometimes there are very obedient people that can say, you know what,
I'm going to turn my will and my life over. I am going to let God prevail in my life. And some people can do that with just that intention and choice and prayerfully seeking to let God prevail. Institute students last week. Yeah, they're so amazing. I know. But for me, I had to and I maybe it's because I'm a control freak. Maybe I just like to be in control. Maybe it's like, No, I'm good. God, I got this. I'm gonna I'm gonna drive
this boat. I'm gonna And you know, the farther I drive this boat and the further we get into the waters of catastrophe and tumultuous times, the more wreckage there is and the more I hit the rocks and before long, I'm literally sinking in the boat. Like, and now all the passengers or whoever's around me is sinking in this boat. And I think that's the part that I let go of the steering wheel and go. Yeah, I can't do this. So how do we do it before we start sinking? I'm
not really that good at it. Yeah, you're pretty good at it. Yeah, so here's the thing. Here's the problem. And this is one of the things that I think that we all need to think about it. Think about Deb, you're compartmentalizing everything that has to do with the fall of Adam and Eve in a one big kind of dramatic tub. You know, not everything is that big. You know, we deal with a lot of stuff that has to do with the fall
of Adam and Eve. It's just everyday stuff, just everyday disappointment, just everybody just every day. whatever, you know, injury, illness, sadness, just everyday stuff. And I'm not saying sadness should be everyday stuff or illness. Don't read me wrong on any of that. But I'm just saying that our worst days don't define us. Our worst moments in our life, the worst periods of time that we have lived, that doesn't define
us. You know, our first episode, a couple episodes ago, we talked about who we are, our identity. And really, Elder Bednar talked about this several months ago in a talk where he talked about to really to get to know Jesus Christ, we have to understand the fall of Adam and Eve. Well, I
think that that's important. We can take that even a step further in saying that in order for Scott Durfee to really understand Jesus Christ and develop that relationship with him that I want, I really have to understand how The fall of Adam and Eve plays its role in my life. Some of those things can be big. Some of those things can be small. Much of it has been seemed quite big throughout my life. And I still have to deal
with some of that stuff. But again, getting back to our identity, I think that really kind of helps us to understand how we fit. Yeah. And I think back to the broken heart, a broken heart being an open heart. to me means willingness. And again, in the sacramental prayers, that they may be willing. And I listen to that word, that's a penetrating word for me, that it's like, Heavenly Father, I am willing. Today, I am willing. And sometimes I have to pray for that desire to let
God prevail. I have to allow Him to, you know, dictate and when I get terrible news on the phone or if I have a sad child or a grandchild or a friend or whatever, that I am equipped with that letting God prevail, that I can hold the space, that I can cry. I can cry with them. I can cry because of the news I've received that I can endure and move through this mortal existence knowing that we are all in a fallen place. A fallen state, right? Yes, a fallen state. Yeah,
let's do a little bit of scripture on that. Let's go to Mosiah chapter 4. Deb, you talk about fallen state, and that reminds me, in fact, it takes me back to remember King Benjamin, and King Benjamin's giving this long discourse, and he's talking about the blood of Christ, how it atones for their sins, and how that men drinketh damnation to their own souls, except they be humble unto themselves, and become as little children, believe
in salvation. It was, is, and is to come through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, and on and on. And they just have this wonderful, beautiful. discourse about Jesus Christ and how he is the solution. He is their savior. He is literally everything. When Mosiah chapter four, Deb, will you read just verse five to start with here? Yeah. So Mosiah four, five, for behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness
and your worthless and fallen state. I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and His matchless power, and His wisdom, and His patience, and His longsuffering towards the children of men, and also the atonement which has been prepared for the foundation of the world, that Thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord and should be diligent in keeping his commandments and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life. I
mean the life of the mortal body. I love that he declares there, I mean the life of the mortal body. Not you, not you, your mortal body dies, right? Right. Verse five, okay. For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness
and worthless and fallen state. Okay, so sometimes, if I'm reading this right, sometimes, that awakening of my worthlessness and my fallen state, maybe that, according to this, for behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God, maybe it's the knowledge of the goodness of God that helps me to come to that. Maybe it's because I know that God is so good that it puts an exclamation point at the end of or in the middle of my trials and just makes them seem. Huge, right? And sometimes
they are huge. I don't want to diminish anybody's hugeness because it comes and we all get to deal with it from time to time. And neither does he wish to diminish this, diminish it. But he goes on and he says, God has at this time awakened you to a sense of your nothingness and your worthless and fallen state. It's a fallen state. We are in a fallen state. A state is a place. You can be in a state of mind. That's a place of mind. You can be in a whatever, but it's not a trait.
It's not a fallen trait. It's a fallen state. A trait is our DNA. Our spiritual DNA is heavenly parents, divinity, joint heirs with Christ forever and ever. Salvation is free because of the blood of Christ. That is a trait. My trait is my spiritual DNA. My state is I'm fallen. And because I'm fallen, sometimes it creates a difficulty for me to hone in on and maybe focus on my trait. clouding it with how big the state that I feel like I am in. Does that make any sense? Yeah,
it makes 100%. What are your thoughts? Well, I just go to the very end of six when you say that. And it just means it means the life of the mortal body. That's where we're at. We're in that fallen state in the life of the mortal body. So 100 short years. That's if we live as long as President Nelson. But it's like, you know, literally. I mean, till the end of life. I mean, we're here in a fallen state with our mortal body. Then if we go on, let's just do
that in seven. So, you know, here we have identified our biggest problem. Our biggest problem comes by way of the fall of Adam and Eve. Was that designed by Heavenly Father? Certainly it was. Why was it designed by Heavenly Father? So that we could understand our dependence on his son, right? Not on us, but on his son, not our own dependence, not our... Going back to our nothingness. Exactly, our worthless and fallen state, right?
And so in seven, this is the man who received a salvation through the atonement, which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind. So for the foundation of the world, obviously, that was before the foundation of the world. It was before the fall of Adam and Eve. So this was part of the plan from the very beginning, right? The foundation of the world for all mankind, whichever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who shall ever be even
to the end of the world. So who's the atonement for? The atonement of Jesus Christ for every single one of us. Every single one of us. in spite of and probably better said because of our pain, because of our separation from. Well, and you understand that sin being a part of this mortal world, sin draws us away from God. Yeah. It diminishes our peace and joy and inhibits us from receiving heavenly comfort and direction
from the Holy Spirit. So in order for us to like combat that, we have to say, Okay, well, we're in this mortal world and we need to seek. We get to exercise, be willing to exercise our agency. Eventually, if we grow accustomed to sin and do not seek relief through the Savior and Redeemer, we will find ourselves beyond the veil, excluded from the living with God and His Son. Is that out of the book? Yeah, this is in chapter seven of the Divine Gift. What page is that on? Seventy
-three. All right. Yeah, I love that. Well, okay, good. Let me just read this on the same page. The Lord then explained one of the primary lessons
to be learned in mortality. it is given unto them to know good from evil we are blessed with that discernment wherefore they are agents unto themselves there is that agency again that we are willing to exercise our agency and choose him i love that but it also you know says all men everywhere must repent so you know, as much as we're living here and we understand our dependency on the Savior, we have to also exercise our agency to turn to Him. Yeah. So important, right? exercising
agency, that's one of the reasons. As a matter of fact, you know, one of the questions that is often brought up, I hadn't planned on talking about this, but one of the questions that's often brought up is, why would God give two seemingly competing and contradictory commandments to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? You know, in other words, why would he command them to multiply and replenish the earth and to not eat of the
forbidden fruit. If they didn't eat of the forbidden fruit, as we read last week in Second Nephi, there would have been no ability to multiply and replenish the earth, right? So the duplicity between those two things has become something of a bit of a debate among Christian theologians for a long period of time. An elder, not elder, but brother Robert J. Matthews actually gave a talk and talked about how That had to be an important component of the entire plan. Otherwise,
there would have been no agency. That was the beginning in the institution, really. Maybe I misspeak when I say that, but it seems to me that that's the institution in the beginning of our real mortal agency is in that moment when those things take place. And in that moment, when those things take place, that's what puts into movement. all of the effects of the atonement of Jesus Christ. All of them. I love how you and I can see it this way, and we just recognize,
hey, our life has been broken. But there are those out there, Deb, who haven't had experiences where maybe they feel that way. Maybe they're not as broken. And so where does this... all apply to me, you know, prophets are fallen, apostles are fallen, there's no, you know. No one's exempt. We're all fallible, right? And if I think of prophets, if I think of ancient prophets, I think of an ancient prophet, none maybe, maybe a couple, but none strike me as more worthy than the brother
of Jared. He just was. As a matter of fact, the scripture says that Jesus couldn't even withhold himself from the brother of Jared. His faith was that great. Well, before all of that, the brother of Jared has this problem. You know, they have to come to the new world and they're building these barges out of dishes and there's a hole in the top and a hole in the bottom and there's no light. And they know that they need to breathe. They know that they need to have
air and they would like to have light. And so the brother of Jared takes this to the Lord, and this is what he says. He says, Lord, we must be encompassed about by the floods. In other words, as they're crossing, the water will encompass them about. O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now, behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of the weak. because of his weakness
before thee. For we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee. Because of the fall, our natures have become evil continually. Nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee. And from the we may receive according to our, that from the we may receive according to our desires. So he actually says, our natures have become evil continually. What does that mean? Our natures have become evil
continually. Well, again. We deal with temptation. We deal with the effects. It's part of the mortal world. The whole thing, right? We're in that fallen state. This is the brother of Jared saying that. Yeah, yeah. So what makes me think that I need to work until I can't work anymore, then I can ask for help? Yeah, well, that's probably one of those belief systems that we listened to incorrectly and forgot to ask. and work, you know, faith without works is dead. And we hear
that cliche a lot. But you know, we can have all the faith we want, but if we don't get off the chair and start working or pick up the stones like the brother of Jared did, or whatever, it's like there's got to be action. Faith is also action. The thing that I love about this is that, you know, really the brother of Jared, he recognizes and acknowledges that he inherited weakness from mortality. But he also acknowledges and recognizes that his identity is that of a divine son. That's
a perfect remembrance. Remembering who we are and whose we are, but then understanding where we are. Yeah, you know, and I think also the brother of Jared gives us a really great example here, you know, and it might be easy to say, well, yeah, well, this isn't about sin or about some big difficulty. It was about a big difficulty. Really what the brother of Jared realizes is that we're not our problems, you know, or we could say we're not our temptations. We're not
our problems. We're not our difficulties. We're not even our fallenness. Yeah, we're his. Well, and we don't need to identify as that. Yeah. Oh, boy. How many times do we say, well, I am and, you know, well, this isn't filled in the blank. Yeah. But OK, so let's talk about that for a second. I say it all the time. Yeah. And every time I go to an alcoholics anonymous meeting, I introduce myself as my name Scott and I'm an
alcoholic. Now, they know. And, you know, I mean, it is because that's part of the customary tradition there. That's what we do. And they know when I refer to myself as an alcoholic, and oftentimes they'll say my recovery dates October 26, 1998, or whatever the case may be. So there's the presumption there that it's a recovering alcoholic or an alcoholic can recover. Why don't you say I'm a recovering alcoholic? I don't know. Sometimes I do. Yeah, sometimes I do. I don't think it
matters. I've thought about that, and I have an opinion that I don't want others to think that if they say it, that I'm judging them. But I have an opinion about that. I want to be inclusive. I want to be the same as everybody else, not different, not better. I don't find hope in a situation where I have to rise up to a certain level. I feel hope in a situation where I'm more like everybody else. Equality. Yeah. I think
that's how it is for me anyway. But, you know, so we go to these meetings and oftentimes, in fact, you've sponsored women in the program, I've sponsored men in the program. One of my closest, one of the people that means more to me than just about anybody else in this world, he's like a son to me, told me one time, he says, I'm not an alcoholic. And I said, okay. But he came later to say, I'm an alcoholic. His identity
changed a little bit. But we get a little bit confused sometimes around these identities, Dub. David and I had a conversation last season about once an addict, always an addict. Dave says, I don't believe that. I don't believe that you need to be an addict and say, I'm an addict. And I don't think that that's how we should identify ourselves. And I don't want to get into whether you should or whether you shouldn't. When I say I'm an alcoholic, I'm not claiming a broken identity
at all. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is when I say that I am an alcoholic, I'm just acknowledging my mortal nature, Deb. That's it. It's not a broken identity or an identity of brokenness. It's a nature of mortality, just like some of the others. A lot of times, Deb, when we think about what's our true identity. I mean, that's really we talked about that a lot. You know, what's our identity? Who am I?
Who's am I? I mean, that was our first podcast, our identity, we really get a glimpse of our
identity through the fall of Adam and Eve. Because if it wasn't for the fall of Adam and Eve, we wouldn't know that we have a dependence on our savior and furthermore we wouldn't even know that that the stories behind all of that we wouldn't know the story of the pre -existence we wouldn't know the pillar of creation we wouldn't know the pillar of the fall of adam and eve we wouldn't know the pillar of the atonement of jesus christ we wouldn't have any idea of any of that but
but above maybe all of that we definitely would have a we wouldn't know who we were or who we are. Our identity would be really messed up. Well, and I think it's important for us to have that connection of remembrance because it is so repetitive that I think sometimes we say, oh, yeah, yeah, we lived in a pre -existence. Oh, yeah, Adam and Eve, which took the fruit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then they fell. And then now we're here having our mortal experience.
But when we push pause, and we literally feel of those moments of I am in a mortal state this hurts this situation these things that I'm experiencing this story that is happening in front of me right now is excruciating I don't like when there is contention I don't like I mean you know so I think as we as we understand and personalize that you know, this fallen state is intentional. And there is, this isn't an accident. This is just like the atonement wasn't the backup plan.
Neither are the challenges that we go through. And so oftentimes I have to ask myself, all right, what do I get to learn from this? Because again, as I always say, no growing in the comfort zone, no comfort in the growing zone. It's like, now I get to learn something. So what is it that I get to learn? Cause oftentimes I'm not willing. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard this, been there, done that. Kicking and screaming. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I get it. Well, and I think that we do need to be careful that we don't let our sins, our fallenness, our fallen state identify us. We really need to focus on our trait, not our state. Right. Right. I love that. I love that we focus on our trait. Yeah. Because I'm
not my story. No, I'm not. you know this I'm not a victim I'm not a perpetrator I'm not you know I I'm not all of those things I am a divine daughter of God but sometimes it's easy sometimes it's easy to feel like I am that well our accuser likes to be the accuser he's not our accuser he is the accuser and that's the point yes that's the point and again one of the reasons why we are so dependent on the atonement of Jesus Christ to answer the effects of the fall of Adam and
Eve. Identity is so important, knowing who we are. And we do have this dual nature, right? We're fallen. We are just fallen. It's like we're living pure opposition. What did the brother of Jared say? That our natures have become evil. Our natures, not that we, but our natures have become evil continually. And so, you know, Deb, well, how do you deal with that? You know, that question gets often asked. So how do you deal
with it? And, you know, we've heard the story in the past of the of the Indian chief and the two wolves. I have a little different story. tonight that kind of goes kind of goes along with that. So this is about identity and really understanding who we are and maybe can give us a little inspiration on how we can deal with the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve. There was once a man, a good man standing quietly in a studio and he didn't even realize it, but he
was being sculpted. Two artists were at work. One, steady and strong, was called Truth. The other, shadowy and sharp, was called Lies. Both had chisels. Both knew his shape, but only one could touch him at a time. Truth worked patiently, tapping gently, revealing the divine image beneath the stone. His hands were firm but kind, revealing the man's nobility, purpose, and potential. Every
strike was done with love. But when the man doubted when he feared and when he forgot who he was he handed the chisel to lies lies wasted no time he struck with shame carved with criticism and chipped away identity with whispers like You'll never change. It's just who you are. You're broken and Everybody knows it you're a fake the man winced, but he said nothing Days passed, sometimes weeks, sometimes months. And until one day, exhausted
and empty, he cried out, who am I really? And in that moment, he noticed something for the first time. Truth was still there. Chisel in hand, eyes full of light, waiting. Without a word, the man reached out and took the chisel from lies and handed it back to truth. And the shaping began again, this time with clarity, this time with purpose. this time in partnership. Because the man had learned he is not the stone, he is the sun. And the sculptor who holds the
chisel matters more than the marble. Wow, I love that. Yeah. Again, willingness. And deciding who we are, right? Who we are is very much a choice. I mean, our choice doesn't really change the inherent fact of anything, but it aligns us with the inherent fact that we are sons and daughters of heavenly parents. I agree. So easy
to get dismembered. So important that we understand it though and understand the effects that it has on us and you know last week you mentioned at the end of the Episode that you know, we should probably be grateful for the fall fact I think you asked her the students at Institute last week how many of you Have actually said a prayer and thanked Heavenly Father for the fall And there were hands. I could not believe that. These kids are beyond amazing. I swear we should sit
in the audience and let them teach us. So why should we be thankful for the fall again? Well, for me, being grateful for the fall helps me remember that there's purpose in all things. Yeah. And I am here for a really big purpose. And so when I do fall and I live in a sinful world, I live in a fallen state. in a fallen world. And when I realize that I get bad news or there's things going on, that there is a reason. These are not accidents. These are not coincidences.
These are not, I mean, some things are, yes, by choice. When I consciously make a choice to disobey, there are consequences that come, absolutely. But the other thing is when I don't make that conscious choice and there's still news that comes to me or information that comes to me, I get to remember, I get to learn something from this. Being grateful for the fall keeps me in that thinking celestial perspective. that it's like, there's a reason. There's a reason I'm
going through this. There's a reason why I'm seeing this. There's a reason why I have, you know, there's always a reason. And the reason why today that I know that is because of my past seeing God's hand literally at work in my life. And I thank him every day for eyes to see that because I know there's a lot of people that have not been able to see his hand in their life.
But I can tell you, you can see it if you kneel down and pray and ask that I'll have eyes to see why I'm going through this challenge, why I've been laid off for two years, why I had to bury a child, a parent, a sibling, whatever, a spouse. There is so many things that we will just not know the answer to. in this mortal existence. I remember listening to a conference talk about mortality works. In October of 2024, Brooks P.
Hales gave a talk about mortality works. And he talked about, I mean, the overall... thing was despite the challenges we all face, our loving Heavenly Father has designed the plan of happiness such that we are all not destined to fall. Just because we're in a fallen state does not mean we're going to fall eternally. I loved that. I loved that talk. I loved that hope and he talked about a sister who had been through so many challenges and how she Anyway, came back and said, you know
what? It's all in divine order. Mortality works. There's a reason for all of this. And I love that. So that's why I think we should be grateful for the fall. And I agree, you know, I'm with, you know, Nephi when he in Second Nephi 4 says, Oh, wretched man that I am. And he goes on and talks about that. And then he and then he says, Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted. And that's that's how it is for me. You know, I've definitely been a wretched man. I've been
no Nephi. Don't get me wrong. Make no mistake about that. However, I have been a wretched man and I also know in whom I now trust. And I'm thankful for the fall, Dub. If it hadn't have been for that, if it hadn't have been for my personalized experience with the fall, and I
think that's important. My personalized experience was not the same as your personalized experience, and it wasn't the same as my brother Mark's personalized experience, and it wasn't the same as any of my other siblings, and it wasn't the same as my parents, and it wasn't the same as, and others will say, yeah, but Scott, you made those choices. Okay, I made those choices, but it was my personalized experience of the fall. that has given me the depth of gratitude of for and towards our Heavenly
Father because of the gift of His Son. And what a gift that is to so many that are trying to fill that gap from their despair, their choices in getting in the world of addiction. and alcoholism, and to be able to see and listen to what you share that offers nothing but hope. I don't know. I think for so many of us, you're no different. Most of us are just no different. We live and die by comparison, and we know that comparison is the thief of joy. And so I compare my fallenness
to the fallenness of those around me. And though, especially the fallen, you know, and I hesitate to say it like that, because I don't see anybody around me is particularly fallen. I'm just acknowledging that we're all fallen and living and continue in living, experiencing evil continually or whatever it said. I'm just acknowledging that. But, you know, I think sometimes that by comparison, I look at my fallenness and my experience with the fall and I judge it because I think others
are too probably. which is so wrong, but I probably do, right? I mean, that's probably the truth. And so because I feel like somebody might be judging my experience of the fall or that my or let me back that up because I'm judging and comparison by comparison and contrast my experience of all of somebody else's and the way that I think I see them responding to those experiences. I don't see them really, but the way I think I see them responding to those experiences that
creates even a deeper fallenness for me. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And I think also it intensifies when we put out on social media all of our you know, that facade of perfection, of look at me, look what I did, look what my kids do, look where we're going, look how, look what we're eating for dinner. I mean, it's, it intensifies by, cause it's like, wow, I had a peanut butter sandwich, you know, kind of thing. But that comparison is a real mortal experience.
That is, you know, as, and yes, we can look at it and be happy for people and, but in the, in this, in the reality of it, It's like, well, what can I put on my social media that's going to show that? Again, and I call it the facade of perfection, because as much as I say we don't put our... are negative things on there, they do. I mean, there are negativity on there. We can talk about that another time too, because that becomes somebody's identity often too. Right.
And there's payoff to that identity. I have been known to identify as, you know, poor me and look what happened. And I get it. I understand it. But in the same sense, it's like, I have got to stay completely vertical and not compare horizontally. That's it. That's it. Like where is my identity?
It is straight vertical. It is asking him Remembering him easy to say that when we're talking in our little space down here on a podcast It's a totally different story when we walk out that front door in the and the world hits us in the face Because that's just how it is for all of us and it's gonna be that way for all of us again I mentioned I kind of started earlier. I've been feeling particularly fallen this past week. I have just been feeling the effects. Physically, I have
my health hasn't been amazing. It's been pretty challenging. There's just that and overwhelming with work and kids stuff and just so much potential things, so many things to potentially worry about. There's only one thing that our focus should be on. Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not. Fear not. That's so much easier said than done. Yeah, let's just do the whole scripture, and this is a good one to end on. So this is in Doctrine and Covenants, section six. Verse 36, right?
You probably haven't memorized, sweetie, do you? Verse 36. Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not. Fear not. Behold the wounds which pierce my side and also the prints of the nails in my hands and feet. Be faithful. Keep my commandments and you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven And I think we can inherit the kingdom of heaven a little bit at a time and in small increments here, Deb I think sometimes we can feel peace
in the storm. I think that sometimes we can feel calm in our worry I think sometimes we can feel Comforted in our physical and mental and emotional pain. I think that sometimes we can and on and on it goes on and on it goes. Yeah. You know, Sunday I was listening to a homecoming talk and it was mentioned in there that they pray every single hour. Yep. And I thought, wow, that is a committed reflection of prayer. And it just came to me, I thought, you know what? I'm going
to put. DNC 636 and 37. And I'm going to read that every hour. I think that is something that resonates with me to look unto me in every thought, doubt not fear not. That would change me. That would change me. And again, when he's inviting us to look to him, where is he inviting us to see him? Yeah, in the Garden of Gethsemane. On that cross. out of that tomb because there's so much hope. And I love that he kept the scars on his hands to be reminded of what he truly
did do for me and for all of us. We worship a God with scars. Well, anything else, sweetie? We'll continue this obviously next week again a little bit. It's just so important that we understand. our personal roles in the fall, our personal experiences of the fall of Adam and Eve, and that we see them as personal, we know that also Christ's atonement for us was personal. It's part of the plan. Yeah. This is part of the plan. And I think when I was able to embrace
it and go, it's all in divine order. It's all in divine order. It's all in divine order. I keep saying that. Yeah. And I look unto him in every thought, doubt not, fear not. Well everybody thanks for being with us tonight as we close out today We just want to say with it wherever you are and however you're feeling you're welcome to be here with us Jesus isn't just waiting for you to clean up everything before you come to him He meets us right in the middle of our mess,
which is glorious. That's where his grace shines brightest So come as you are broken torn hopeful questioning searching. You're not alone And we'd love to stay connected with you as I mentioned earlier in the podcast If you have any thoughts questions stories or anything else to share, please send us an email You can do that at he
redeems us at gmail .com We promise to read everyone and respond to as many as is appropriately possible And if this episode touched your heart We hope that you would share it with someone you love and care about a friend a family member Anyone who could use a little more hope right now? Next week, we're going to talk more about Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, how he doesn't just redeem us, but he heals us. He lifts us. He transforms
us. He helps us overcome the effects of the fall, and he does it in our everyday lives and in our everyday struggles. Thanks for being with us, friends. And remember, there is always hope through him, because you and I have been redeemed through his blood. Thanks for being with us, everybody. See you next time. you