Hey there gang just kind of wanted to give you an update on the podcast our plans are to continue to record podcasts. We have just run into a little hurdle here with Dave having some medical issues. See he had a hip surgery and has been a little bit out of the pocket as you can well imagine. He's healing well. We anticipate being back on schedule within a week or two. Thanks for your patience. In the meantime enjoy our friend Jack Christianson.
Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. I'm Scott Durfey and joined as always by David Durfey Good to be here Scott. Good to have an old friend with us today. Yeah, I'll be careful on using adjectives like old. There you go. There you go. Hey gang before we get started I just want to thank you all for your responses your emails all of that.
Just it's so wonderful so great to hear from you. Last week we were able to address a question from an email and we'll continue to try and do that as we can. You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. He redeemsusatgmail.com. Well listen Dave this week is a treat for me. I think it probably is for you as well. We have a guest with us that has some notoriety in the church and his name is Jack Christianson. I have had the opportunity to know Jack for a little over 25 years.
I'll have 25 years I guess a little under 25 years. I'll have 25 years sober next month. In fact one month from yesterday as a matter of fact. Awesome. That is hard to believe. But you know after a few years of being in recovery I had an opportunity to speak with Jack at a fireside. And I'm sure I have a brighter recollection of that than Jack because he gets an opportunity to do that so much.
And I felt like I was with a celebrity because I had listened to so many of his talk tapes and stuff growing up. But I know Jack is Jack Jack the scripture maniac. That's right. Wow I can't remember that. You didn't know that. Well I know that about Jack and Jack and David know the scriptures to a degree that I I hope to us some day aspire to. But anyway that's Jack Dave. I'm going to let you take it from here and say a few more words
and then just kind of get us rolling. Thanks Scott. Yeah. Thanks Jack for being with us. So honored to be here. Both of you. Jack are. What does our stand for. It's just our. Yeah that's what I thought. It's just a middle initial. In fact on all of my products that I have books and yeah it has a period. But I didn't learn until I started doing family history that my real name is Jack are. Yeah. No period.
No period. Yeah. So I just leave the period on it. But I'm Jack are my dad is Jack. So I'm junior. OK. So well I Jack Jack and I I guess we knew each other when we were in high school playing against each other in sports and he was my my nemesis and we had a lot of respect I think for each other then he was best quarterback. I mean I know we played against and it was always fun to beat him. I know that he's the only one that did.
Well I'm going to save you all the research to these guys played in the day of one Gifford Nelson. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Gifford was a pro bow and Jack was the quarterback at Orem. And I remember the you know coming over to Orem their homecoming and beating them seven to nothing. That was that was a big deal for us because we had to work was kind of small and or we were really big and one of the bigger schools in the state had a great team
and went on one state and did all kinds of great things. And anyway well it's only been 52 years and I'm still hurting but that's OK. I can be redeemed. That's what I know. Physically hurting or emotionally hurting. Yeah. It was mentally mentally I got you. That's that makes sense to get beat by a little American fork. He was probably really humbling for Jack which was good for him. Yeah. Anyway so we were kind of a nemesis to each other but we've become great friends. Jack
went on played a little college football. He met the love of his life Melanie Harris. Right. And how many children do you have Jack. We have one son and four daughters. One son four daughters and our children and our we have 19 grandchildren and four great grandchildren. Jack has had many many church positions and callings after after we taught seminary for a while and I remember observing him teach before I actually became a seminary teacher. He was a popular teacher. I remember
him holding his head people's heads in buckets of water. At least that's what I observed. That's correct. In order to teach them that when they desired God as much as they desired air using the sock Socrates right experience. You know when somebody came and asked Socrates how did he become so smart. He said when you desire knowledge more than you desire air after you tried dunked him in the ocean and he passed out. And Jack was using that for testimony. And anyway I wanted to become a seminary
teacher. I've always wanted to become like Jack. So anyway it's just really an honor to have him here and he's served as a stake president mission president and it's so sweet now Jack that we share the calling of being a patriarch. Well Jack has quite an education to Oh yeah. Jack attended Oxford. Well it's the H.D. it's the private side of Oxford which is Buckingham Buckingham. Yeah. And served as a besides being Institute director at U.B.U. where I was also Institute
director. He went over to the secular side became vice president at Utah Valley University and then was called away as a mission president. Yeah. I was actually the assistant to the president special assistant to the president. OK. So I had my office right next to the president and it was great. Yeah. And had such a positive effect on the university from the community standpoint building trust and thank you support from the community. Anyway Jack it's just a really
an honor to have you here. And we wanted to be able to have you share with us some of your experiences that you've had throughout your life with the redemption of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice. You and I have spent
enough time together. I wish it was more but we've spent we've been on a golf trip together and you hosted hosted us when I came back to New York in the sacred Grove when you were mission president in the New York Rochester Mission and anyway we've we've had enough time together that I I know who Jack is and Jack's had so many experiences personally as well as experiences helping others to feel the love of God through the
redemption of his son. So let's just start Jack by having you kind of share any experiences that you want as examples of the redemption of Jesus Christ and the power of his atonement. Well thank you Dave and Scott it's a joy to be with you. I think the most important thing that I can say to any listeners and to the two
of you is that I am an I have an absolute certain witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I am a living witness of his redemptive power not only in my own life but in the lives of many many people that I've had the privilege of serving with and my family. I didn't have the great privilege that some of you
have had of growing up in an active Latter-day-St. family. My mom and dad for whatever reason chose not to be active and as a result it it they developed habits they they had issues all along the way. We talk about Scott being sober for 25 years. My father my my both my grandfathers my brother my some of my uncles all struggled with addiction and so it was very very common in my life to see it growing up. I didn't understand it. I do now thank goodness but but my my two grandfathers
just had difficult lives. One was in World War I. I never got the the problems that war creates in the mind and the spirit and the very soul of people and my grandpa my grandpa Christensen had some struggles but when he grasped the gospel I think the premise of what I'd like to say about both my grandparent my grandfathers my two grandmothers were as I can't even talk about them. They were as saintly as they get and I'll talk about them in a minute because that's what set the
whole my whole course of wanting to help other people. And by the way Jack the one thing I admire the most about you is the individuals who I have seen you help. Just just the one on one. I mean you know besides the masses the books and the caves and the leadership positions you've held Jack. I remember the the one young man at UVU who used to come in the Institute every once in a while yeah Dana Wilson and he would always call you yeah when he needed help and you were always
how is Dana doing. He's he's passed away. He died of COVID. He did and it was a really I took him to be tested. I helped him for 32 plus years. I took him shopping every week. What was his handicap. He had cerebral palsy and a mental deficiency. But he always you know you were like you were like more than a brother to him. You were like his dad his brother is his lawyer his everything housekeeper his everything. And anyway that's that's the one thing about you Jack since you you just said it
that's what gave you the desire to serve others. You have been an amazing example to me. Well thank you thank you. It's been a privilege and sometimes you worry if you are not worried isn't the right word but you wonder if it does any good and it wears you out. Sure. But my very first year of teaching there was a sign on a teacher's wall in his office that changed my life. He said you are not the interruption of my life but the purpose for it. And I have tried to live by that. That a
student isn't an interruption. A troubled teenager isn't an interruption. You're the purpose for which I exist. And when you go to what president Ezra Taft Benson said he said this just as a man or a woman does not desire food until they are hungry. So they will not desire the salvation of Christ until they know why they need Christ. Right. And then he goes on and says and no one properly and adequately knows why they need Christ until they understand one doctrine above them all
and that is the fall. Exactly we've quoted that haven't we Scott? Yeah and then he says and no other book on earth teaches that better than the Book of Mormon. Amen. And so if we can somehow grasp the Book of Mormon and not just hold to it but remember the phrase from First Nephi 8 that the group that held fast and continually to the iron rod when they got to the tree they realized it's not even a tree. They fell down. They fell down and worshiped because they realized
it's him. Yeah. It's him. And that's what can happen to each of us and I have needed the redemption of the Savior and his sacred blood going back to my grandparents when my grandfather Christiansen
got active in the church and overcame some of his issues. I didn't really know him other than than when he well that's not true when I was a little tiny kid but as I got older he died when I was 17 and he had to use the redemption of Christ to overcome his addictions to overcome his traditions and his anger about certain things but he went to the Manti Temple with my grandmother
and they were faithful both of them died completely faithful. My grandpa Pinnaker they lost my grandma and grandpa Pinnaker lost a 15 year old a four year old an 18 month old and then a son in World War II all within a short amount of time plus my grandmother's parents and sisters. The four year old and the 18 month old all died within like 18 months of each other
and my grandfather did not handle it well and he began to drink. My grandmother on the other hand it's very similar to in Alma where it says because of the exceedingly great length of the war
some got turned against and some became softened. Some were harder some were softer. Yeah and so my grandpa went harder my grandmother became the saint of saints and when my uncle Max and Rex turned 10 years old they went to my grandfather and said we want a special birthday gift for our 10th birthday and my grandpa thought it was another bicycle because the two of them had to share a bicycle. They were twins. Yeah and some maybe don't know elder Rex Pinnaker. Yeah of the first quorum
of the 70s. Yeah right. And so he they said dad we want a we want a special gift from you and he said well I just want another bike you can't share your bike. No we want you to stop drinking when we turn 10 and to my knowledge he never had another drink. I only knew my grandpa Pinnaker as a superstar spiritually. I have his scriptures that were what I got from him. I have a talk he gave that was inserted in his pearl of great price that I treasured. He died when I was 13.
My grandpa Christiansen died when I was 17 but why that is so significant it is. I don't know why my parents chose the way they did. A lot of it had to do with World War II. My dad left for World War II active in the church and elder. He played football two years at BYU before he left. Came home with a ton of problems. He and my mom had had dated in high school excuse me that's not
true. They went all through school together and then my mom was divorced with two children at the end of the war and my dad came home from war and they married and they raised us not active in the church. However they got it together. You want to talk about how it's affected my life. I feel
I need to tell you a story. If you don't mind me talking about my family. I was a grown man with children when I learned this story and I want to share it because I don't think people appreciate why people do what they do and somehow we've got to get to the point where we realize that this life is birth to the final judgment and resurrection. Too many unfair things birth to death. Yeah. In other words, Jack, we've talked on this on this podcast. There's a difference between
temptations and conditions. Amen. Section 46. Yep. 46. The Lord knows the condition of every single person. He suits his mercy according to their condition and that is absolutely correct. And so it's not going to be the same for everybody. Right. So when my parents got married, they didn't raise us in the church, but my grandparents were incredible influences in my life. My grandmother, Pinnaker would say to me every time she saw me, every time, that's not an
exaggeration. Oh, you're going to be a wonderful missionary. Well, I don't want to be a missionary. I want to be a football player. But guess what happened? Her influence made me want to go serve those because I realized why I needed Christ. But I let me tell you a story that I never told in public that I think will be helpful to your listeners. I was a senior at Orm High. It was during football season. My dad was coming home from a meeting late at night and stopped at the bar,
had too much to drink and hit a parked car, not too far from our home. And the police came, and the officer that was there saw my dad's driver's license. And his name was Jack Christensen. And the officer said to my dad, Hey, he related to Jack Christensen. That's a quarterback of Orm High School. He's my son. Now, before I tell you what happened, let me tell you how I learned this story. I was making fun of that officer and mocking him a little bit as a grown man. Just
do you remember this officer? Because he'd picked me up a couple of times and I just kind of was teasing about him. And my dad grabbed me by the shoulders. He says, you have no idea what you're talking about, son, you sit down, let me tell you a story. That man's the greatest man in Orm, Utah. He says, you have no idea what he did for you and for me. That officer, when he pulled my dad over, my dad got to the accident. He saw that driver's license. And he said, I cannot embarrass your
son at this time during the football season, you could ruin his life. He said, Mr. Christensen, will you promise me if I take care of this and make it go away, that you will never drink and drive again? And my dad said, sir, if I give my word, I'll keep my word no matter what. I promise you, I will never drink and drive again. Thank you for caring about the reputation of my son. Let me tell you how I feel about that man. I didn't know it. I'll never make fun of anybody again,
ever. Because I had no idea that that had happened. And I had children. I mean, I was, I think I was a bishop at the time. And my dad let me know. And you talk about the mercy of Christ, because that started my father on a softening process. And both my parents started reading the Book of Mormon. We had an incredible bishop, an incredible Relief Society president, our ward. The bishop just came to our home and said, Hey, don't you think it's time?
And so they ended up, we were sealed February 27th, 1973. And I and my sister were the only two of the five children that were sealed at that time. And then one by one, they have all come back and been sealed to our family. My parents went on a mission to the islands of the Caribbean. My dad was that had never had a calling in the church, because he would swear too much. And so he became the greeter. And his favorite line, everybody's favorite line was how the hell are you this
morning, brother? And the bishop just worked with him. Then my uncle Rex calls my dad on the phone. He says, Hey, I need a couple down in Barbados. Well, and I need them to get down there right now. And I need you and Merle, my mom to go. His sister. And my dad said, Well, Rex, I got a little problem. I'm still having a little problem with the back. And my uncle just said, Well, stop it. The Lord needs you and he needs you now. And my dad blesses art. He did. And they went down there.
He served as branch president of two branches at the same time. And he would call me on the phone to ask me about how to do certain things. He would read the handbook, couldn't understand it. So he would ask me and I got to train my father. They came home from their mission. They moved to St. George. They served 13 years in the St. George temple. Now I ask you and they both died faithful members of the church. The redeeming blood of Christ changed my family forever.
So when my mother passed away, my brother was with me and my one, my younger sister, who has always been a superstar. She was just too young to be sealed without being endowed. And of course, excuse me, she's the one that was with me when we got sealed. My other sister, who is a wonderful woman, is a hippie in the sixties. And she's finally came in and she's been on a mission to Sweden and totally active in the church. My oldest sister, she's 83. She's had three marriages.
She has four children, four different fathers. And there couldn't be a greater woman on the earth. And I've watched this process that you two talk about every week. Yeah. Effect my own family. Well, my brother was the last one. He's a recovering alcoholic. This one that lived in Denver. He lived in Denver. He was a car dealer in Denver. He's been married and divorced seven times. And he was with my mom when she died with me and my
other sister and my wife. And my mom just wouldn't go. And my brother finally put his face down by hers and said, mama, just go. And she didn't do anything. And then he says, am I the reason you don't want to go? And she just shook her head and said, yeah. And then he said, I promise you, I'll do my best to come back. And that, and then she died within a few minutes. Well, he just called me one day and just said, I'm tired of living like this. I got to have help.
He'd been sober for quite a while, but still had from alcohol and drugs, but still had other issues he had to work on. And he got divorced, sold everything, sold all of his business, his home, everything. He and his wife split. He moved to a little 55 plus community in American Fork. Oh, sweet. He's a caveman. He's a caveman. And he is just, he, I have to tell the story. And some people, some of your listeners have probably heard me tell it, but, but he decided,
I got to do, what do I do? I said, you need to go see your bishop. And you got to confess everything. He says, well, I can't confess everything. I can't remember everything. I'm, so I asked him a simple question. Have you ever murdered anybody? He said, no, not that I remember. I said, okay, then just tell your bishop that. So he goes into the bishop and tells the bishop, and the bishop didn't know what to do. So he sent him to the stake. Let's start with that.
So we sent him to the stake present and Tom said, could you go with me to see the stake present? Cause you've been a stake presence. I said, okay, I will. And so we get to the stake present and my brother says, I've done everything you can possibly do wrong, but I've never murdered anybody. And he said, excommunicate me, do whatever it takes. I just want to come home. And the stake present in his sweetness to simply said, Oh brother Christians, and you don't know enough to be
excommunicated. How about if we just work with you for a couple of years and we teach you the missionary lessons and we teach you the temple preparation classes and that type of thing. So that two year period, and this is not by coincidence, is the only two year period where I didn't have some heavy ecclesiastical or professional assignment where I could be with my brother every single day. Well, maybe not every day, but most days. We didn't miss very many in
two years. And this was how long ago, Jack? This was in nine 2018. That was divinely designed. It was. It was it was absolutely orchestrated. And so I was able to be with him, teach him. And our uncle Rex was dying. And so all of my siblings and I went up to see him. And as we're talking, and my brother is using all the the church jargon, my uncle Rex just said, Stop, stop, stop. What on earth has happened to you, Tom? What has brought about this change? And my
brother's response was so profound, I have to share it. He simply said, Oh, I don't know. I just started doing what I've been taught to do my whole life. And my life changed. And I came to know my savior. He said, I started reading scriptures. I started praying, started attending church, started paying my tithing. I couldn't serve in the church because of my past for a while, but I could clean the church every Saturday morning. And so we would call him some days and say, Hey,
let's go fishing, let's go golf. I can't have got to clean the church. And so a couple of years ago, well, actually three or four years ago, he got prepared to go to the temple and my cousin actually, who just lives across the street from where we are right now, Michael Pinneger, was in the presidency of the of the Provo temple. And I was proxy for my dad and my sister was proxy for my mother. And my cousin performed the ceiling. And my brother heard these
words, or similar words, as though you had been born in the covenant. And he would no longer felt like he was a second class citizen in the Lord's kingdom, no longer outside. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Well, and those are just some of the, well, Jack, let me ask you about the meaning. Let me follow up on that. So how does the atonement really work? I mean, I you've alluded to to service your, your, your brother's statement, what he said, you know, I just started doing
everything I'd been taught to do. You're an example of this. So your family, your dad's an example, your mom and dad are example of this. It sounds like the atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives was administered as they as they served. But how does it how does it really work, Jack? I mean, how, how have you come to the, what have you come to learn as you have watched this about how does the atonement of Jesus Christ really change us? How does that work? I'll tell you what
I what I feel, but the spirit seems to agree. So let me go to Alma 34 verse 31. It's amulet's teaching and he's teaching with Alma. So when amulet and Alma talk about redemption and atonement, I listen. Yeah, they're teaching this or am I and they've had to experience it themselves, both of them. Remember, amulet says, I heard, but I did not hear. Right. I would not know. I wouldn't know. I knew all these things. I knew, but I wouldn't know. And Alma the Younger is going
about secretly trying to destroy the church. Right. And then he has his great grand conversion, which is in the words of Elder Bednar, he says, well, the reason Alma had his experience and excuse me, Paul had his experience and they didn't have the still small voice like the rest of it, is that they were so messed up, they could never have discerned the still small voice. They had to have an angel or the Savior come to them because of it. So when they teach,
I listen and amulet says something so profound in Alma 34. He says, yay, I would that you would come forth. Now here's the key to everything and harden not your heart any longer. Stop being hard in your heart. Well, so I say to people who have had addiction or have been abused, I say, okay, this whole thing about forgiving your perpetrator. All right. Let's say I know we teach that you need to be forgiven. You need to forgive to be
forgiven. However, there are exceptions where what I would ask you is don't harden your heart. Leave a little hole in your heart so that when the forgiveness does come, there's a place for it to go rather than ricochet off your hardened heart. It'll seep into that little hole. And then he says, for behold, now is the time in the day of your salvation. And therefore, if you will repent and harden not your hearts, there it is again. What's the next word? Wow, immediately. Immediately.
Shall the great plan of redemption be brought about under you? The minute you bend your knees, immediately, the minute you open the scriptures, the minute you seek help, the minute you try, immediately, the atonement is working in your life. You don't have to wait until you're this good or that, you know, it starts immediately. And you are beginning to be healed in your anger, your bitterness, your heartbreak, your disillusionment, your guilt, you know, as Dr. Christensen. I just don't think
that guilt is a bad thing. I think it's a gift. I think it is a gift. I think it's a gift. I do too. Pain can be a gift. We talked about that. Absolutely. Because that's how you know. It's like when people approach me and they're all angry about something they read about Joseph Smith. I ask a couple of things. Well, first of all, by their fruit, you shall know them. What is Galatians 5? Let's not even go
to LDS Latter-day Scripture. Let's go to Galatians, the Apostle Paul. And what does he say, the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace. Is that what you felt when you read that about Joseph Smith? Yeah. No, I got angry and I'm mad. They lied to me. Oh, what does that tell you? Exactly. It's not true. The Spirit does not act that way. And so when you read the truth, the minute you see the truth about yourself, you just have to realize that the Atonement, the grace of Jesus Christ, his
forgiveness, his love begins immediately the second you try. And I think too often we think, well, I'm not good enough. I've done this. I've done that. Well, welcome to the club. Most of us have things in our lives that we struggle with that we wish we didn't have. I have to deal with anger and with frustration towards some people who falsely accused me. And they didn't have all, they didn't gather all the information. They thought they did.
And I've tried to reconcile with them and they won't. And it's hard. But this much I know. The minute I bend my knee and I ask Father in the name of Jesus Christ, I got to be healed. I can't have this. I'm a patriarch. I have to give a blessing. I have to eliminate all contention in my life, all of it. I have to eliminate all fear, as you know, David. Right. And section 67 is so clear. You got to get rid of your jealousies. You got to get rid of your fears.
And you got to be humble. Well, how do you do that? You have to ask. Well, section 10, verse 21, the Savior says about the people who stole the lost manuscript. Their whole problem is, they won't ask me. So the instant you start to ask, to pray, to search, to not doubt, but ask all the questions you want. But don't doubt. So, Jack, is it as simple as just looking to the brazen serpent? Yes. But that's what makes it so difficult. It's so easy.
Is it that simple, really? Well, for me, it is. I love the term that, you know, Alma uses the term snatched. Yes. I love that term, that he was snatched. Yes. You know, I just, I, we, you know, we've talked about that on this, on this podcast so many times that if we would just look, if you just look to God and live, you know, if we just tried to keep the commandment, to look unto me. Yeah. Look unto me in every thought. Now, I, I know that, that, that's a work of a higher order.
Yes, it is. But just the effort, just the effort to do that. Amen. In fact, go to 1st Nephi 1511. Look at what Nephi says. Now, this is right in the, he is trying to deal with his brothers in the dream. He's interpreting the dream for his brothers. He's interpreting it for them. And so he says in verse 11, which I believe, and in, in my way of thinking, this is as powerful as Moroni 10, 4, and 5, and as powerful as ask, and ye shall receive, seek, and ye shall find.
So it reads, do ye not remember the things which the Lord has said? Okay, stop. So when you have an issue, whether it's social issue, whether it's gender, whatever it is, what did you forget? What, yeah, what has the Lord said about this? And where will you find that? What did you forget? Yes. Scriptures. Why do you not remember? Yeah. Okay, go ahead. How can we remember? Remember, remember. And Nephi goes on, if ye will not harden your hearts and ask me in faith. Okay, stop. So
there it is again. Don't harden your heart. This is so stupid. I'm, I've been hurt by this person. I've done this. I know, we all have, you just don't know it. All of us carry wounds that we don't let everybody see. How do we, how do we do that? How do you not harden your heart? Well, I think this is how you not harden it is the very next line. Ask me in faith. Ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive. Just trust me enough. Just ask me. Believe you'll get an answer. And then
the hard part is the next one. Believing that ye shall receive with diligence in keeping my commandments. Now, there's the problem. It's about keeping commandments. Because we don't want anybody to tell us what to do. And I find that so ironic. We'll come back and finish that verse in a moment. All our lives we want to be free from our parents telling us everything to do. And then when our heavenly parent, who's a perfect parent, far better than our earthly parents says, well,
you can make that decision on your own. I trust you. Oh, it's not true then. I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit because I didn't get that answer when I wanted it. Well, you know, he loves us. And then he says, what's the last thing in there? It says, if you'll do those things. Surely these things shall be made known unto you. Yeah, I know it's true. And I love the word surely. Surely. It's a fact. You remember what the Lord said, don't harden your heart. Ask me in faith. Believe you'll get an
answer. Try to your best to keep the commandments and learn to repent all the time. I repent all the time. Yeah, we all should. I was driving a few days ago, and I nearly hit a guy, because he just stopped right in front of me to turn into Macy's. And I, you jerk. And I immediately, I said, wait a minute, I'm giving a patriarchal blessing in two days. Right. Heavenly Father, I am so sorry. I am the jerk. Please forgive me. I'll do all I can to never let that happen again.
And I think one of the things with the atonement is, is we need to learn from Brigham Young. He said, I never performed a priesthood ordinance that I was not worthy. Well, when I first read that, I thought, I'm lost. I had that lots of times. But then he describes how to do it. He said, I go before the Lord and I say this, Father, please cleanse me through the holy blood of the Lamb. And I will try never to do this again with all my heart. I'll try, but please cleanse me through
the holy blood of the Lamb. And if there's anything else I need to repent of, before I get up off my knees, well, I'll bring it to my mind right now. Otherwise, I will consider this matter closed. And he says, I just get up and go do it. And if it's not a major transgression that would affect your membership in the church, that you need your help from your priesthood leaders, then I think we need to get over ourselves and just say, Heavenly Father, I'm going to try never
to do that again. And then if we, if we mess up, always remember what Elder Scott and Elder Renland have taught us, that there's a major difference between human weakness and open rebellion. Yeah, we just talked about that. Last episode. Well, yeah, but keep going because this is good. You're following up on what we just talked about. I just can't get over how important that is. Okay, so you drop back in, you fall off the wagon. Does that mean you're lost? No.
Yeah. You just immediately, the second you bend your knees, the second you try, the second you resist, see as Louis said, nobody knows about temptation till they resist it. Yeah, it's true. Right. Don't tell me that you know about temptation if you've never had to resist it. That's why Jesus knew more about temptation than anybody. Then we'll never know about it. That's right, because he resisted it every single time. We give into it.
And you faced all of it. All of it. Everything that you and I face. All our temptations, all our infirmities, everything that says an effect of the fall of Adam and Eve, Jesus Christ felt that. That's right. And so what we have to do is get over all of the social talk, the senseless, ceaseless talking of the world about why you shouldn't do this or why you should just do you and don't. Well, how about let's do what the Savior wants us to do. Once you know he's real,
why do I keep the commandments for one simple reason? I just love him. Yeah. And you and I have talked about this, David. True love casteth out all fear. Perfect love. And it's all fear. Well, go back just a minute. So it's not just the social stuff they hear, Jack. It's the accuser. Oh, you know, it's revelation 12 worse than that. It's the accuser. That's right. In fact, Joseph Smith taught. He didn't teach them all at one time. But through his ministry,
he taught we there are four things we should never do for things. Now there are my personal formula for what you should do is every day, scriptures, prayer, prophets, service, temple. Then I've added two others. Beautiful music and study church history from legitimate sources. Not everything on the Internet. Go to legitimate sources. But Joseph taught four things we should never do if we want to have the spirit. Number one, we never aspire. What was Satan's big deal?
He aspired to be God. Yeah. Yeah. And and you go to Alvin Babbit in section 124 verse 84. Yeah, the golden calf. Yeah, he wanted to he didn't want to follow the prophet. He aspired to be the one that would make decisions. Yeah. Okay. So never aspire. Number two, never accuse. What is Satan's main MO? Yeah, he's their user. That's his title. Day and night. That's right. Number three, never contend. What does it say in 30? President Nelson just give a talk about that,
right? Yeah. And and contention. Satan is the father of contention. Yes. Who stireth up the hearts of men to contend with anger one against another. Behold, I say unto you, this is not my doctrine, but this is my doctrine. Christ says that all these things should such things should be done away. And I think Jack, much of that contention and anger is because of fear. Oh, absolutely. You know, you got angry at the guy the other day because you were afraid. Yeah, I almost could have
cost him his life. I know, I know. I think fear is the source of most contention. I agree. So that's the third. Do not contend. And the fourth is never coarse. And remember, what was the chapter four where Satan, what was the battle about? He tried to take away the agency of man. Well, I think one way he did that, Jack, was not so much he was going to force to keep the commandments because I don't think he had any intention to keep. He had no desire to have anything about commandments. He
was going to coerce us or force us by taking away accountability. That's all right. I'll save you no matter what. That's right. I'll save you even if you don't want to be saved. And you don't have to do anything. That's right. And my personal feeling is, and maybe I shouldn't say this, I don't want him to come after me, which he always does anyway. And by the way, just wait until if you would you become a patriarch or a patriarch spouse, you're attacked. Yes, you're attacked more than
anything I've ever done. I've done everything you can do in the church except be a member of the 12, which I never want. But I'll tell you this, I've never been worked on harder. I hated state conference. And I hate to admit that because a couple of weeks before and after I had all these talks when you were state president, yes, I was just brutally beat up. And I tell people you be careful what you ask for because I don't think you realize. So but but a statement I've always used
as if you're being beat up, just remember this, Satan don't kick no dead dogs. Yeah, it's kind of a good sign, isn't it? Yeah, I used to tell my students, you know, the closer you get to Jesus, the harder it gets in the more your sins and weaknesses even look loom larger, they look larger. They, you know, if you're feeling adversity in your life, then you know you're doing something right. That's right. And James teaches us that if we will resist the devil, he'll flee from us.
Now he'll be back for sure. But with his buddies, but he'll leave. And I even sometimes I never cease. Sorry, I get emotional. I don't mean to. I call upon the name of Jesus Christ, whenever I need to, I'll cast out evil spirits. I don't care. I am not going to give in. I don't want to give any place for Satan in my life. I know what power he has. President Packer said, I will not consent to any influence from the adversary. Well, I love the Savior. That's why
I live the Word of wisdom. I love the Savior. That's why I want to live the law of chastity. I love the Savior. That's why I want to pay tithing. It's not a big deal to me. I just love him. Thanks for everything. Boy, what is 10%? Yeah, right. And I have needed help in the past. I don't mind. I love to pay fast offering. Well, it's it's out of love. And it's also out of gratitude. We've talked about that gratitude. Gratitude is the beginning of desire. By the way, that's from
Ed Pininger. Yeah, gratitude is the beginning of desire. Gratitude is a is an attitude that just really makes a difference in our life and our ability to change. I try. Well, share with us some more examples, Jack. I will. Let me say individuals and and not just what they did, but how okay, the how the Savior changed them. Well, let me or you say this. I think it's important that our listeners realize that when you keep the commandments, when you strive with all your
heart to serve the Lord, it doesn't mean that all your problems will go away. But it gives you the foundation and the vision and the heart to deal with them. Yeah, and the reservoir of faith. That's right. Parenting, marriage, all sorts of things. It's a matter of the heart. Right. Where's your heart? Yeah, for sure. And that and that takes spiritual, where's your heart? Only gained by making it present oak said by making a succession of correct
chores choices over long periods of time. Small and simple and patient, be patient. You're not going to hell. Just keep trying. Yeah. Let me give you one that we talked about just a little bit before. When Scott told me the story of a man that that came over and told him that that I love you. And this one, Scott was just three. Yeah, Scott was coming back. Let me let me. So let me just
kind of preface this and then I'll let you please let you jump in from there. So when when Deb and I first moved into this house, the one that we're in right now, it was about 17 or 18 ish years ago. And I my membership had been lifted, which was a great blessing. And we've talked about that. But my membership had been lifted. And I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder at that time.
And we moved in here and you know how things go. The the elders corn president wanted to meet with me and I reluctantly agreed and went and the first thing he said to me when I got there and I love this man today, when I first got there, Alan McNeil said to me, he said, Scott, I just want you to know that we love you. How much we absolutely love you. And and that just rub me wrong. Because of the chip on my shoulder, right? My heart wasn't soft. My show shoulder had a big chip on it. And I just
got up I said, you don't know me. Don't tell me that until you know me and I left. Well, here it is 17 years ish later a couple years ago, I was called to be the elders corn president in this same ward. And it almost immediately Jack when when I got set apart and I was going through the list on the website of the elders in our ward and some of them I didn't know. Yeah. And I loved them. And I felt this great, enduring, powerful love just enveloped me, which you didn't
just decide you were going to do it's not beyond your ability. Well, not only beyond my ability, but it was even beyond my intentions. I hadn't even considered that it wasn't even something. In fact, it's a gift. In fact, this this experience with Brother McNeil had left my mind until almost that time. And so here I am sitting in this very office that we're in and I'm going through that and I feel that and I just needed to go see Alan. And I said, Alan, I owe you a huge
men's 15 ish plus years later, because I know now that love that you expressed to me. And he just smiled, you know, gave me a big hug and and all that. So that was that's kind of the beginning of that story, Jack. Well, and I I almost hesitate because I haven't received his permission to share this. But then at our 40 year class reunion, which was held two years early, because they were demolishing our high school, I had been called and I was leaving a month later to be the mission
president of the New York Rochester Mission. And after our meeting and after our dinner and everything, Brother McNeil took me aside and shared with me some of the feelings he had had because of something I had said and done when we were in high school. And he was absolutely justified. I was I was wrong. It's just something stupid. It's just something stupid, not to anyone, particularly I just told a story about some things. And and I was on the Seminary Council in high
school on my senior year. And that was totally inappropriate for the leader of the Seminary or a leader of the Seminary to say something like that. So Alan felt bad that, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't go to seminary. That's the kind of guy that's leading it. And then he he struggled with feelings about a mission because of me. Wow. And now, 40 years later, he's telling me begging, begging me to forgive him. And I said, and I wish everyone could have been there. I had my arms
around the back of his head. And he has his around mine. And we're forehead to forehead. And I don't care what anybody thought. Two big grown men crying football players. He was great. He was our linebacker and I was a quarterback. And I it came to me, I said, just think of what we've just learned from each other. I said, I beg your forgiveness. I said, I didn't understand what it meant to be a priesthood holder when I was 17. I didn't get it. And I beg your forgiveness.
And you didn't have to wait 40 years. So look at what we've learned. If you had come to me sooner, and I had known and you had known, we both could have saved ourselves a lot of pain because the Savior knows our hearts. And to this day, every time I see him or his lovely wife, I have the most sweet, beautiful, loving, healed feelings that one could possibly have. And I believe he has those for me as well. For sure. Yeah. Can I mention one real quick? Please.
Please. My daughter who is divorced, a single mother with four children, she could have given up when everything that happened. It's just been a disaster. But what she has done is just said, no, I choose to believe. I choose to be faithful no matter what's happened to me. She's working on a master's degree. She's working full time. She's trying to
raise these kids. She's the gospel doctrine teacher. I share this because she has been such an example of the very thing you talk about in this podcast that she just said, okay, and does she get discouraged? Of course. Does she want to quit at times? Of course. But the whole point is I choose to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. And I'm going to put my discipleship of the Savior above everyone and everything else in my life. And as a result, it has saved her. That's the bottom line, Jack.
That's right. It's saved is a relationship. That's right with the Savior. If all of us would just everything he's asked us to do, all the commandments, all the covenants, everything about the temple, anything that we can have a closer relationship with him. That's right. And with our father. Yeah, absolutely. Be connected. Be bound. And the Holy Ghost will be with us even when we think it's not. Always remember 3rd Nephi 9 20 where the Lamanites had the Holy Ghost and they knew it not.
Right. And Sidney Riggan in section 35, the Lord was using him all the time and he didn't even know it. Right. Well, I just want to thank each of you. No, thank you, Jack. For this privilege. And I know the things we've talked about are true. I know the Savior lives and he redeems us through his Holy Blood. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Jack, thank you. We didn't have enough time. I wanted to hear the story about your, the missionary story that you told me. Yeah.
And I haven't written down here, but I didn't get it. Maybe I can come back and tell it. Would you? Yes, I would. Oh, we'd love that. If you'd come back, we could hear a few more stories that I know that our listeners not only would love to hear, but they need to hear. So it's always so great to be with you, Jack, and talk the gospel and see the light of Jack's eyes and feel the conviction in his voice and to a witness over the years as I have the goodness of his heart.
So thank you so much, Jack. Sure, love and appreciate you. Thank you. You're, you're a dear friend. Thanks so much for being with us, Jack. Thanks, David, for your insights and questions, etc. We hope that you have absolutely felt the redeeming love and the, the, the, through the Holy Ghost, the, the cleansing power that comes to us through a knowledge of getting to know him, of having the ability, having our desires increase as our gratitude grows. And
I think that, Jack, what you've done to us is given us a deeper gratitude. You know, your insights have definitely imposed on me a deeper gratitude with that comes, a greater desire with that desire comes. Hopefully if I'll act on that desire, which I commit to do even a deeper desire, discipleship in following our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Thanks for being with us, Jack and
Dave. Thanks for being with us, everybody else. We look forward to being with you again next week and remember that you have been redeemed through his blood.