Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. Scott and David Durfey here. How's it going Dave? Good, Scott. Good to be here brother. We have a friend. We have a close friend. I'm going to introduce her in just a second. But before I do that I just want to tell everybody thank you for your emails and questions, etc. Don't hesitate to keep those coming. You can send those at heredeemssetgmail.com. Dave just mentioned we have a guest with us today.
This will be our first live guest. We did do an encore guest I guess interview when we had Deb, my wife, do hers a few weeks ago. We had a rerun of a recording that we had done. I think this is our first interview this season. Maybe our only one. I don't know. That's kind of the way it's leaning. We really hadn't talked. We hadn't decided not to do interviews but we hadn't really talked about what we were going to do as far as interviews.
The other day I'm having a conversation with a young man that is here with us today who I've known for some time and it just hit me that it's time to have Nick on the podcast and get his perspective on the things that we talk about. I want to introduce my good friend Nick. Nick and I have known each other for a while now. I'm going to let him talk about that. Nick, why don't you do that? Just say hey to everybody. Kind of introduce yourself.
Tell everybody how we met and maybe just take three or four minutes and do that. Hey guys, my name is Nick. Grateful to be here. Thanks for having me. I met Scott in the rooms of recovery probably a little over three years ago and just listened to what he had to say about church and recovery, which for me at the time I was struggling with those two.
I loved recovery and I wanted nothing to do with the church but I also loved my relationship with God and as I started to build a relationship with the Savior I started talking with Scott more and more and he suggested a book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, which next to the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous changed my life more than anything to date.
Then we started working the 12 steps together and had become really good friends and he's been a great mentor and example and you've just helped me walk through a lot of challenges, making my way back into the church, which was a journey and just how to navigate religion, recovery and family. Nick, I'm going to stop you. You said walk my way back into the church. You didn't do that at all. You walked into a completely different experience than what you had envisioned prior to what we had done.
So you were experiencing something completely new. It was brand new. Yeah. I feel like my experience over the past, a little over three years has just completely given me a new lens to view the Savior and God and what religion means to me today versus what it was growing up. I'm from Utah County. I've lived in Utah. I've been in and around the church my whole life. Honestly, I always resented it. I've viewed it as a necessary evil for social, family, business.
It was just one of those things that you got to toe the line, but it never made its way into my heart where today it's a completely different story with the fact that I have a relationship with a God that I love and with the Savior and with the Spirit and how religion enhances those things. Nick, I love all of that. When people hear a guy, me, with 25 years sober talk about things, people tend to think and it's human nature, well, that's easy for you, you've got 25 years sober.
You have a few years sober, three going on four. That'll happen. We celebrate Nick's sobriety date on December 31st. Nick, as you walked into that completely different experience, I think that's what we're going to talk about today. How that changed. Why was it a different experience than the one you had left? What focus had you made? What capitulations or changes had you made? What about faces had you made in your attitude, in your decision making and so on?
So I think I'll let Dave, if you've got some questions you want to lead off with. Well, let's kind of go back to your growing up, Nick, and just kind of share, not in detail, but just generally, kind of your experience in the church, in your youth. I grew up in the 80s and 90s in North Orem. There was... That's North Orem, Utah for us. North Orem, Utah. We have a worldwide audience here. Gotcha. Okay. My dad was always in different leadership positions in the church.
So I learned from a young age that it was a lot easier to go along, to get along, and then do what I wanted behind closed doors. I found drinking and partying in high school. That became one of the most important things to me. And so it was like, all right, I got to put on a face on Sunday, and I'm going to do and say whatever I need to.
I'd go to seminary, I graduated seminary, I went to church every week and stuff, but it was like, well, I'll just do and say what I need to, then when I can, I'm going to do what I want to do. And so it made it so that I viewed religion as just something that I needed to do, and I never gained a relationship with the Savior or with God.
So as you kind of shared your story, Nick, or kind of introduced yourself, it almost sounded like, I'm not saying this is right, but from your perspective, it almost sounded like you felt perhaps that the church or religion was almost a stumbling block to your relationship with deity. I thought that the church owned that relationship. So if you explain that, explain that.
I didn't realize that the relationship with the Savior and with God was something that it's just me, regardless of whatever my stance is with religion. I thought that if I'm not right with the church, then I definitely can't be right with God or the Savior. So I just thought, well, if I go to church and I pay my tithing and I do my callings and I drink when I golf, like maybe I can have the best of both worlds.
It's just really interesting your perspective of that, Nick, and I just wonder how many more have that same perspective where they think that the church owns a relationship with deity, that it's through the church that we have a relationship with God. Is that how you saw it? Yeah, I did. And so when I wasn't involved with the church, the idea of praying when I needed help, it never crossed my mind. Because you were out of the church. Because I was out of the church.
And if you weren't in the church, you couldn't have a relationship. Because they owned the rights to that relationship. Yes. And as you were growing up, this is a podcast on repentance and forgiveness, which is really the ultimate relationship with the Savior, receiving His grace and mercy. But as you were growing up, how did you view the process of repentance? Kind of describe how you saw repentance. We've described it as turning our back on sin and facing the Savior, moving in His direction.
How did you see it? I saw it as that I, like me, I had to change the behavior. I had to make all the changes. So basically, if sin is facing one direction and the Savior is another direction, and that's a 180-degree turn, I saw repentance as only making a 90-degree turn. I turn away from sin, but I'm not turned to the Savior. But you're not turned to the Savior. Why? Because I didn't feel that I felt like I had to do so much on my own.
So you hadn't earned the right yet to turn that other 90 degrees. Exactly. Or the other 45 degrees, right? Yeah. Did you ever hear the scripture growing up, Nick? We are, it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do. I had heard that. And was that a little bit of a problem? So I interpreted after all we can do is that, like what I heard there is after all I can do. And the way that I understand that scripture now, the we is me and the Savior. That's the we. We're yoked together.
I love that, Nick. So all that I can do, the only thing I can do is turn to Him. That's literally all that I can do. I love that. I love your take on that. I think it's really profound and I had never really considered how you described it. But I think many of our listeners can absolutely relate to this is that so many, and I did too in my youth. I never thought of it this way, but it absolutely describes my efforts or the way I saw repentance was a 90 degree angle instead of a 180 degree angle.
You know, I was going to go save myself and then after I'd saved myself that I'd then I would turn to Jesus. But I had to do my part first, whatever that was. I didn't know what that was. I was going to go go do what I could. So I just think that's really a profound analogy 90 degree turn and that's not repentance. In fact, it may take us further away from the Savior.
You know, because if we think that we're our own saviors, that may actually prevent us from hitting a rock bottom or keep us from even feeling that we need a Savior at all. Right. I didn't understand the peace and comfort that comes from turning to the Savior. I felt like it was all about what's right and what's wrong, like black and white. You know, this good deed goes in the right column. And if I do enough of those, it'll... Maybe if I do 10 more of those than one bad, it'll cancel out.
Exactly. Yeah. Justice, the law of justice. So many are relating to what you're telling us. So tell us kind of how you came to the point and share with us your story of how you came to the point where you knew you needed a Savior. You know, I always lived in and around the church, you know, but I also was, for me, pills and drinking became a counterfeit God. They gave me an instant relief, you know. And so I always knew that I shouldn't do this stuff.
And so I tried to control it as best I could for a long time. And you know, I would go in spurts of, you know, doing what I considered better, but the door was always open. And anytime I felt emotional discomfort, take a pill or do something to numb out that feeling, you know. And I didn't have a relationship with myself. I didn't know who I was. And so I tied up my identity and external things, you know.
And in 2018, life got pretty difficult, a business that my family had, you know, we were closing it down and I'd always worked in that business. And I tied up how I saw myself in that, my self-worth in that. And when that went away, you know, it was kind of like the perfect storm. I had this addiction that I'd been feeding. My foundation, my world, you know, the rug was pulled out from underneath me and I became angry.
I felt like I was owed something, you know, and looking back on it, it's completely irrational, but it was very real. By who, Nick? By God. By God, that God owed you something. I don't even know who, but he was the easiest one to blame. So you took it out on him. Yeah, I took it out on him. And you know, life got really difficult. You know, I ended up losing everything, lost my family.
And I got to a point where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of trying to fight this addiction and I threw out my hands and I was like, take me wherever you want to take me. And that was really my first experience with surrendering, you know, and it took me to a bottom. So you surrendered to your addiction. I did. All right. And I remember thinking very clearly like I'm done fighting this. Let's see where this goes, you know, and maybe it'll kill me and this will just be done and over.
This is a pretty common, this is a pretty common sentiment, Dave, that I hear a lot. I had it too, you know, especially from people who are dealing with drugs and alcohol as you just mentioned. So Nick, continue. What happened next? So you know, when I surrendered to that, it was like I had a bull ring through my nose and I had no choice. Choice was gone.
Well, you concur then with what Elder Oaks said seven or eight, maybe 10 years ago in a priesthood session of general conference where he said addiction robs us of our ability to make a choice. 100%. Yeah. You know, so instead of trying to fight the choice or fight the addiction, I figured if I just embraced it, then it would make it easier, you know. And you know, I went for about a year and a half down that road of complete surrender.
It took me to places that I just, I didn't know existed, you know, black became white, good became bad. Isaiah says in the last days that people call good evil and evil good. Exactly. You know, my view of reality just got so skewed. I convinced myself that there was no such thing as right or wrong or morality or, you know, that choices didn't matter because it was an idea that I could hold on to and it kind of justified what I was doing and kind of a moral relativism. Yes. Yeah. Exactly.
And live your truth. You do you. And so, you know, I had this experience where I'm out, you know, kind of living on the streets up in Salt Lake and I see that I'm going to die. So were you homeless at this point? Yeah. Living on the streets literally in Salt Lake City? Yeah. Okay. Yep. And I see that I'm going to die and I, but more importantly than that, I felt it. Yeah. I was not in my right mind at the time and it was a weird thing.
I kind of saw like these rings around us that I understood as the demands of justice. And basically it was like every decision you make, there's a consequence for it. Positive negative, you know, that is kind of irrelevant. Like you take the action, you get the result, you know, and I just saw that there was a price to be paid for everything. And it's totally different than what you believed in the few years before that. Completely different than anything. It was, how did you see that?
Well, how did this knowledge or vision or what would you call it came? How did that come to you? It was the middle of the night. I met this place out in West Valley, you know, doing a bunch of stuff that, you know, I'm not proud of and the room lit up. And all of a sudden I was like in a different place, you know, at the scene of an accident. And I knew that the accident was like the people were there because of me. Something had happened.
I didn't see what had happened, but I felt it to my core. And it didn't last long and all of a sudden like I'm back, but I couldn't even move. I was terrified. I was petrified pain. There in fear. And I couldn't talk, you know, and I just remember the only thing I could almost get out was like, I'm scared, you know, and so I just remember thinking like, I got to numb this out, whatever this is, I got to numb it out, but I couldn't get it to go away.
And it was this hit in my stomach that something really bad is going to happen. And whatever I just felt there, I don't ever want to feel it again because it was the only way that I can describe it is it was completely void of light. It was so dark. So I fought it for a week or two and I was like, I don't know what's going to happen, but I can't keep doing what I'm going to do, what I'm doing. So I that sounds like a rock bottom. Is that kind of maybe like a rock bottom for you?
I don't know if everybody has to have a rock bottom, but it was the point where I knew you had to change. I had to change. And so this was in May and you needed help to do it. I needed help. Definitely. And so that's really when my journey started to, you know, I sought out help. I didn't get completely sober until December 31 to 2020. This was May of 2020. So you went several more months living in this hell. Yeah, so no, I went, I got help. Okay. So I had left. I never went back to that place.
Yeah. Physicality. Yeah. Okay. You know, and I went to a place for like five, six months to get help and I was good. And when I left there, I came back down to Utah County. Were you in rehab then during that time? So I went to this place called the Other Side Academy. Okay. That is like this prison alternative. Right. It's like a work camp. And it was really good for me to go there. You know, that program's 30 months and I stayed for about six, but they got it so that I could work.
You know, I was completely sober. But you know, one of the things that they talk about in, in AA and in recovery is that drugs and alcohol, that is, that's how we fix the problem that's going on inside of us. Like that isn't the problem. That is one solution of how to, how to treat the problem. So when I got out of this place and came down here from Salt Lake, I was still stuck with the problem. Like I got a hole in my soul, you know, that can only be filled with God.
And after trying to be sober without having a solution, you know, and I started meeting with a bishop and I was reading and I'm, I'm doing all these things that I'd been told and I'm not having. So you say you were reading. What were you reading? I was reading, um, believing in Christ. Okay. So you were reading church books. I was reading church books. Scriptures too. Scriptures. Okay. Trying. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I couldn't pray.
Um, I, uh, when I would try to pray, there was something inside of me that I just, I couldn't do it. I physically couldn't do it. It was a strange sensation, you know? And I, I got to the point where after, you know, I'd been sober like eight months, I was like, if this is what it means, forget this. Like I'd rather go back to the insanity because I get relief there. Cause right now I've got this ball of anxiety. I feel like I can't breathe.
So I went back for about a week and I couldn't get the relief. You went back to, I went back to using. You went back to the addiction. Yeah. I went back. Addictions, looking for relief. Looking for relief, you know, and, and I wasn't getting the relief there. And so I went and checked into a residential treatment center just to kind of duck my head, you know, cause I'm like, I, I, I feel like I'm going insane. Like I can't live in the addiction and I can't live without it either.
Like I am screwed. You know? And I didn't think there was any hope. I was in a completely hopeless place. And, and when I was, went into that rehab, you know, the only relief I could get was sleeping. It was the only time I could get any peace. And I remember I got to a place where I just, I couldn't sleep anymore. And I rolled over and there's this book, the big book of alcoholics anonymous next to my bed.
And I remember looking at it and I had no idea what this book was and I knew that the Bible, they called it the good book. So I feel like the big book. So the alcoholics wrote their own Bible. All right, sweet. This thing's got to be boring. I bet if I read five pages, I'll fall asleep, you know, and, and I started reading from it and it spoke to me. I could relate with everything.
And it was the first time I felt hope in a long, long time and that was the opening that God needed, you're used to, to start to speak to my heart, you know, and, and that is where my journey with God began. Maybe I can reframe that. Maybe that was not the tool God used, but the tool Nick used to be able to start hearing God again. Absolutely. Yeah. And the language that I understood, God was like, all right, this is the perfect place to begin.
Like this is where I can, where I can break through to you, you know, because I became willing to begin to, to be open to something out there. Yeah. Okay. So talk to us about how did the reconciliation with the church take place? What was the process of that?
You know, I started down this, this path because I felt a little bit of hope reading the big book and, and through working the steps in recovery, you know, it began to, the beauty of the steps is that, I guess one of the best descriptions that I've heard of it is like, we come to earth where a perfect magnet and we get dragged through the junk yard of life. And so we've got all this stuff that like God is there. Church is blocked off from it.
And the steps do a great way of, of breaking down, I guess the repentance process, but it begins to get you unblocked so that you can get that spirit into your life. So I started working through the steps, you know, and after about six months and one of the things that I did, you know, my dad had always shown me through his example, like the importance of daily prayer, reading things of that nature.
And so, you know, with this book, I was like, okay, my best effort is I can get up, I can make my bed in this rehab and I can read this book. And you know, I mean, that was as good as it was for me, but I committed to do it every day. So I started, you know, when things started to happen. And after about six months of, you know, doing the work, reading, writing, praying once I could, I started to begin to see this thing each morning.
You know, I would see this big building that I understood to be my relationship with God, you know, this amazing structure. And it was this relationship that I was building. Or this deity that the big book talked about. Yeah. You know, you didn't really maybe know who God was at that point, but you saw that you had a God and a deity that was assisting you through this. Absolutely. 100%. I hadn't really given it a lot of thought or definition. I just knew there was something there.
So defining it wasn't important to you as much as experiencing it was. Defining it was, I found that the important thing that was trying to let go of my prejudice of what I thought maybe it was. And so because of that definitions can sometimes become a roadblock to our progress. 100%. You know, yeah, I found that one of the biggest hurdles was what I thought I knew. You know, I mean, yeah.
So when I just allowed whatever was out there to kind of reveal itself to me instead of trying to put it in a box that I have what I thought it was. It worked, you know, and so I would, I would see this structure, you know, and up to this point, you know, I'm like six months sober and, and I swear I'd never go in another church. I wanted nothing to do with it.
And so I'm doing these things each morning, praying, reading, writing, and I would see this structure being built, you know, but next to it was an empty field that was like staked out, ready to be built on, you know, and I would just continually see this in my mind's eye in the morning says I'm doing this stuff.
And I, I understood it that that was to be my relationship with Christ and that I needed to start seeking that, you know, and when I, and at first I was like, I thought I'd sidestep this and, you know, that this was all good.
And so I was like, okay, I will start in on this, you know, and so I started reading conference talks and, and, you know, if I'm honest about what my intentions were, my, I had this thought of I'm going to see where they're wrong because like I would know that, you know, I mean, like that's where my air is. You're so enlightened at this point.
Yeah, you know, but, you know, because I had all these ideas that like the church just had it wrong and, and so I start reading this stuff and I'm like, wow, this stuff's amazing.
I got to love it, you know, but I'm not going back into the church, you know, and so I did that for, and I started reading the Book of Mormon too, you know, and, and, and it was weird because I had this wall there, you know, like I knew that there was something there with Christ, but it, it, there was something blocking me from it. You're prejudice. I mean, what is this wall?
Would you say is it your prejudice, your anger, your just prior frustrating experiences that you've had with the church or what's, what's the wall? You know, I think it was some of those things. By the way, I think everybody at some point has had a wall and the wall may be different for every person, right?
Yeah. I, I feel like all of those things played into it, but the thing that I have felt in my heart walking this path was that God was saying to me, okay, I'm going to make you work for this so that you truly appreciate it because I've given you a lot of free gifts and you tend to appreciate things that you work for a little bit more, you know, but a lot of it was my prejudice, anger, but the, the thing is through the seeking, I felt so much hope
like I knew it was there and I could feel it getting closer and closer, but it, it took about nine months before that wall came down, you know, and, and at about six months on this path of seeking, I decided to walk back into a church, you know, and I, I went and got the bishop and just told him my story and was like, you know, I don't know what needs to be done to get back into good standing, but I feel like I'll never be at peace internally
until I make things right with the church, you know, and, and at first I was like, you know what, I'm going to walk through this, I'll get back into good standing with the church. God, don't give me an experience with this so that I can wash my hands of it when
I'm done. So that like, all right, I'm in good standing, I'm good, I did all that, I feel at peace, you know, and I started down that road and, and after doing that for a few months and meet with the state president and the bishop regularly, you know, I was fellowshiped and during that time, you know, I come to know Scott a lot better and he'd suggested this book, the divine gift of forgiveness. So I'd started reading this book and it just
spoke to like the words in it. It's so similar to, to the big book and recovery and the principles in it are the exact same. And it just, it spoke to me, it was a language that I understood, you know, and, and so as I'm reading that book, you know, it talks about how, you know, there's a line that says your soul will cry out for Christ. And when I read that, it was
the most powerful spiritual experience I've ever had. It just, that wall came completely down and I had this slideshow where God was saying, this experience you had, you know, I've seen the feet of what you saw, no, but for that, before that, all the darkness, the dark, this is when your soul cried out for Christ, you know, I just kind of use the circumstances of what you were doing to, to show you something. And since this time, you haven't been making
choices. I've been guiding you, you know, and, and it was just this overwhelming thing of, you know, I took you here to this place for six months and then I got you to a place where you were completely hopeless. And then I gave you the big book, you know, and that allowed this to happen. And then, you know, and it was just systematically was like, you think you're making choices, all you're doing is moving your feet. You're just moving your
feet. I'm, I'm, I'm guiding this. But you were moving your feet. I was moving my feet. 100. Awesome. You had to do something. Nick, and I will say this about Nick, Nick moves his feet when there's an issue in front of Nick, Nick does not stand idly by waiting for something to happen. He moves his feet. And God must have known you would. I mean, God knows you perfectly right, Nick. And he knew that you would, if you reached that point,
and you made a turn that you would move your feet. That's what he knew about you. Before I was always concerned with the outcome and shouldering the rest, you know, this idea that I have to go make something happen where today it's like, you know what, God's going to do whatever he's going to do. The path is going to present itself. So, you know, it comes down to like, okay, today, what can I do today? I can get up. I can pray. I can
read. I can write. And then I can go out and it's like, where can I be of service at work? Where can I be of service to my kids, my family? Where can I be of service? And I, in recovery, who can I help? Where can I be of service? And as I focus on these things, number one, I'm not thinking about myself, which makes it so that I find a lot more joy to like,
I just see God's hand everywhere. Walking back into that with the church, it's like, okay, the church, I have my own relationship regardless of where, you know, if I'm active in the church or not, I have this relationship with God, with the Savior, with the Spirit, and going into it, having, taking that ownership of that relationship has made it so that the teachings in the church and everything that I've experienced in the church just enhances
it. Yeah. So your redemption, your redemption, let's, let's kind of explore your redemption here for just a minute. There's a lot of people in AA or other programs, right, can change their behaviors. But that's not repentance. And that's not redemption. It's a change of nature, a change of heart. It's Jesus described as being born again, right? But your redemption, conversion has not been necessarily through the church, right? No. Nor should it be.
Nor should it be so that you see the church as you said, enhancing. Yes. Enhancing that relationship. But before in your youth and before you saw it as your relationship with God had to be through the church. Now you see it as the church just enhancing all of that. The way that I kind of view it growing up is I worship the church. It's like I got in the building and I never made it through the ceiling up to where God and the Savior were.
You know, I, yeah, you were just in the building and you love the building and at maybe some point in your youth or whatever you love the building, you believed in prophets and you saw them as so special and they are. But you never got past that. Right. I worship people and I worship the institution. The social. And then it just didn't make sense to me, you know, and I was like, well, I'll just go along to get along, you know. But your
view now is described your experience with the church now. So my view now is that I have a relationship with God, with the Savior, is completely independent of anything else. It's not contingent on, you know, church attendance or religion and then bringing religion into it, you know, and this is just based off my experience. You know, it's not an idea that I have. It's just, it's the way that it's happened, unfolded for me.
Everybody's experience is different. Conference talks, scripture, you know, I, I cannot get enough of the words of the Savior since I had that experience with the book. Now as I, I just with which book, the divine gift of forgiveness. Yeah. I, I can't get enough, you know, I read as many books on the Savior as, as I can. I love reading like C. S. Lewis and Emmett Fox and these other Christian writers who bring in a different perspective
because I, I just, I love it. Like it speaks to me, you know. And, and so the church now I've, I view it as a vehicle that helps me get closer to Christ, but it isn't the, it, I got hung up on the, the vehicle. I was trying to worship the vehicle. And yeah, that's not
really getting me anywhere. Yeah. I think, I think that's so important. So redemption, what point can I ask you and there may be not a point or a day or a moment, but as far as redemption goes, Nick, or as far as forgiveness of your sins and that you were good with the Savior, describe that process. I mean, we describe repentance, right, as a, as a process, as a foundation. There's a foundation to it. There's conditions, broken heart, contrite
spirit. We talk about the actions of crying out to God, giving our whole soul to God. We try to talk about the manifestations of all this kind of where are you at in your redemption or forgiveness or receiving the grace and mercy of Christ and you know you're in good standing with him. Talk about that process. For me, a lot of that has been through the immense as I make things right with others.
I feel okay with me. I know I'm good with God. Walking through getting back into good standing with the church, I felt like the sacrament was a formality, you know, and the stake president would ask me questions of like, you know, when you get back into good standing, like the spirit, you know, you'll fully have the spirit or I can't remember how he worded it, you know, but I just remember thinking like, you know what, like I'm good with God,
like I know that. But when I got, like when I got back into good standing, the stake presidency brought in the sacrament, they blessed it, they gave it to me. And I remember as I went to take it, I kind of had a slideshow that played through some of the craziest things that had happened in the past and just this feeling inside of like, this is, it's behind
me. Like it really is behind me. It's been a gradual process, you know, and I don't believe that it was a gradual process for the savior to forgive me because the price was already paid. It was becoming okay with me, you know, and for me, a lot of that is to, to, you know, there's a saying in AA and they put it on the coins to thine own self be true. I lived
the way that I live because I feel in my heart that it's the right thing to do. Where before I would try to live a certain way because I was thought it was, because I wanted to portray an image of that I'm doing something. Maybe seeking an outcome. Fit in the culture, fit in the culture and all of that, right?
Right. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And but now, but now it's just become a part of who I am. You know, and I mean, I, I never would have dreamed that the thing that I look forward to the most each day is, is my time in the morning, time to get quiet, you know, and I always, you know, praying, praying was something that needed a complete overhaul on my part. Like I couldn't be honest when I prayed. You know, I thought that I had to take a certain type
of reverence or whatever. And I had to, you know, my journey with that was I had to take all formality out of it. When I would get mad, I'd swear. And when I'd pray, you know, because it I just felt like I was so disingenuous before, you know, and I was trying to gain an authentic relationship with, with God, with the Savior. And, you know, now it's, and before I always felt like I was taking the game plan to him. It was like, I'm God's coach. It's
like, all right, big guy, here's what we're going to do today. Yeah, you're going to help me. But this is what I'm doing. And putting in a quarters, you know, I think Elder Chris Dofferson described it to Nick as a vending machine gospel, put in the money and outcomes the candy bar you choose. Exactly. Yes. That's how you saw it too. It's not that is it. Let
me let me ask about the formality of the sacrament. You saw it as a formality. You said, how do you see how do you see the sacrament and ordinances and covenants now and kind of the role of covenants in the church was just, you know, kind of unique to the church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints. How do you see that in your role of the Savior?
You know, it's a road that I've been walking down and I don't fully understand it. But what I have come to see is that like that's the major difference between our church and every, you know, every other religion. And I found that the spirit is everywhere. And that was the thing I thought the church owned the Holy Ghost because of, you know, when
you're baptized, you get the gift of the Holy Ghost. So I didn't believe that if you weren't in the church that you could have a spiritual experience, you know, and that's the beauty of AA and some of these other places where I find spirituality is that it's like truth is truth anywhere, you know, and the difference between the church and some of these other things is that, you know, brings the covenants into play. You know, I just recently got a
temple recommend. And so, yeah, you know, it's something that I've just been incorporating in as I felt moved to do it. Is this is this the first time you've been to the temple? No. In your life? Or did you did you serve a mission? I don't I didn't serve a mission, but, you know, I'd been to the temple. I'd never enjoyed it, but I'd been. Yeah, you didn't see the symbolism. You didn't feel the spirit when you were there the first
time you went, right? Is that your experience? That is exactly. You thought it was a ritual and probably a little weird, huh? It freaked me out. I didn't like it. Yeah. You know, and it's been a journey to get back there because everything in me has been like, don't do it, don't do it. And that's generally how I know what I need to do is I don't I mean, I just I don't want to do anything that's good for me. I don't know why it's that way,
but I've just learned to recognize the feeling when I don't want to do it. It's probably what I need to do. Yeah. Well, this 90 degree, let me just go back to this one more time. So this former view of your 90 degree, we'll call the 90 degree angle of repentance where you move instead of you move away from sin and you go sideways, it's probably land you put you in no man's land, right? Describe what it means now to
when you feel tempted or you you sin, we all sin, right? We're all sinners helping sinners. How is it that you turn to the Savior and you move towards Him and how have you experienced the my arms are outstretched steel? How do you experience that on a daily basis? I guess I've come to the acceptance that my job is to be imperfect is to make mistakes. That's why I was sent here. Yeah, and our whole podcast on the fall is that we should
thank God for the fall. We should thank God, I give unto men weakness, he even said that, Nick, in ether 1227, I give unto men weakness that they may be humble. So describe that and and what that means to you. So it's it's a daily reminder that I need God, the weaknesses that I have, you know, we go to the seven deadly sins, you know, pride and judgment, those are like my two, you know, I have so much pride and I judge
so harshly, you know, and I see it on a on a daily basis. But I find I found that for I always wanted to attain just enough perfection to the point where I didn't need God anymore. Like now it's like God gave me the imperfections that I have to remind me on a daily basis that there's nothing I can do without him. So the turning is acknowledging it, asking for his guidance to teach me how to be better. All I can do is turn to him. That's that's
all I can do. And then through that, there's just a change that happens where like I want to be better, where before it was like, I want to portray that I'm doing better. But in my heart, I'm holding on to these things. And I couldn't articulate those things until it started to change, you know, and I guess that the one that I had had to completely surrender was that desire to go back to that counterfeit God of drugs, alcohol, where he completely
removed that the desire is no longer there. Number one, I didn't think that that was possible. And number two, it's like, okay, if I can become that willing with these other character defects, like he will change me, you know, or he won't, maybe he wants me to have those
things so that I would continue to remember to turn to him. I don't, you know, I don't know, but accepting the imperfections and not seeing them as a flaw, but as like that's how it was designed, gets me to a place where it's like, okay, I just I want to do better today. But if I fall short, you know, what you will, when I fall short, when I fall short,
do I owe an apology to somebody? You know, because one of my favorite scriptures is in Matthew five, I think it's 2324 right in there, where it talks about how like if you bring a gift to the altar, and then you remember, you've got to make things right with somebody else, leave the gift there, go make it right with the other people, then bring it back. You know, I, and I believe Elder Stevenson talked about this in conference about the
bridge with the two towers. Yes. Yes. That I can't be right. Love God and love a fellow man. Right. I got to make things right with the people around me. But you know, to be at peace with myself and to to be right with God. Well, John Todd in in first John, if we don't, how do you know you love God? Because you love your brother. If you don't love your brother, you don't love God. And if you don't love God, you don't
love your brother. I mean, those those towers are inseparable and one without the other isn't any good. I want to read the scripture and then maybe conclude with this. Nick, this is because listening to your story has kind of reminded me of the scripture in Alma chapter 26. Ammons, Ammons kind of glorying to the Lord and rehearsing his kind of missionary
experiences and his his conversion and conversion of others. And he says in verse 17, Alma, 26, 17, who could have supposed that our God would have been so merciful as to have snatched us from our awful, sinful and polluted state. How do you relate to that scripture? And how would you describe that happening in your life? You know, I think that is a perfect description of what I've experienced because I I hear a lot of stories of people, you know, who are like, I prayed and God showed up and I
wasn't looking for God. And he came in, you know, and I felt like he put his arm around me and was like, dude, just quit running. Let me help you, please, you know, and and then, you know, the thing that I can say that I've done is I've sought the guidance each day and he's just moved me, you know, and guided me to things that have gone completely against what I wanted. But, you know, I've also come to the realization that I've never
known what's best for me. And rarely do I want what's best for me, you know, and so, so, you know, just surrendering to like, all right, you point me where you want me to go and I'll go. That's awesome. Well, we're grateful you've been snatched. I'm grateful that I've been snatched. Grateful that Scott's been snatched. I mean, I love that word in the scriptures. We've all been snatched. And I really appreciate your story, Nick, and
your willingness and humility to share it with all of us. I hope there's some takeaways here that one of them, I think the real powerful things that you've taught us, Nick, the false way to see repentance is going sideways. I honestly, so many people see it as either I face sin or I face the Savior. But the truth is, when you go 90 degrees, you face nothing. And you this bleakness and all the false gods that fill in the blanks for us, this counterfeit
God that you've talked about. And then how you how you now interpret second Nephi, you know, 25 that we are saved by grace after all we can do is the Savior and you not not just not all I can do. It's not I, it's we, and you're equally yoked to the Savior. And
I really appreciate your perspective on that. So I hope that all of our listeners can review their lives, think about maybe when they were snatched, or think about what we need to do to put ourselves in a position to be snatched, where the or the Savior can can work with us where he can turn us help us turn towards him. And all we have to do is move our feet.
But I know God knows that all of his children in the right situation, in the right conditions at the right time, that he will be there for them and hopefully sooner than later for all of us. Anyway, thanks. Thanks again, Nick for being here. Thanks for having me. Nick, just as we close, the very last paragraph in the big book of
Alcoholics Anonymous on page 164, it really kind of describes Nick. I've had a very intimate purview of Nick over the last few years now as we've worked steps together and kind of trudged the happy road to destiny as we call it in Alcoholics Anonymous. And Nick really embodies this. And the reason for the embodiment of this is because of the experience that you've just heard and the one that you've just shared, Nick. We appreciate you being
here today. We appreciate the love that you have for your Heavenly Father. It shows it shows in everything that you do. And again, I am privileged to be able to see that in your life on an almost a daily basis. Here's what it says. It says, abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the fellowship of
the Spirit. And you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the happy road to destiny. May God bless you and keep you until then. Nick, I love you. I hope you know that. I admire your efforts. The way that you have been honest in your approach to your relationship with the idea has been exemplary, not just to me, but literally hundreds of others, not just in AA, but other places as well. God loves you. He appreciates what you're doing
now and all that you're going to continue to do. Thanks for being with us, everybody. Our invitation to you would be to look in your lives where maybe we have seen repentance as a 90 degree angle or maybe where we have been amiss in some parts of our lives in having that relationship directly with Him. Thanks for being with us. Thank you, Nick. We look forward to being with you again. Until then, be well.