Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeem Through His Blood. Scott Durfey here joined as always by David Durfey. How are you? Good, good. Good. Happy birthday by the way. I feel kicking after that birthday 7-0. You know a lot of people ask me all the time is David your brother or you know what's the relationship there? Yeah I probably sound younger. You look younger. There's no question there. Yeah I could be your little brother. You act younger.
And only in the LDS community is that possible but that is possible. It really is. That is possible to have a nephew who's older than you. Who's older than the uncle. Yeah. I can cite several situations. There are stories about, of course I love the culture. I'm not, I'm not being derogatory or critical but you know mothers standing in the line of their son or daughter's wedding line and they're pregnant. And you know it's possible I guess that who knows.
Yeah. You could have been my nephew who was older than me. Well either way it's just been an absolute fun experience over the last few years to be doing this with Dave. So Dave when you turn 70 you know I just had a big birthday. I just turned 60 a few months ago. Dave's 10 years and 3 months almost exactly older than me and you know I did a lot of reflecting when I hit my big 6-0 milestone this year.
You know I don't know about you but I tend to look back and I think on my life you know I have this tendency to do personal inventories in my life right. So I look back and I assess where I am and where I'm going and try to make adjustments and so forth. What was your experience turning 70?
Well I've been thinking a lot about Brother Matthews and I've been thinking about an old poem that he had I should have brought it called The Old Crow and in essence is the Old Crow, the older it gets the less he knows. That's just so true Scott. It just seems like the older I get the more I know I don't know. So I've been thinking about that and I played on my birthday in silence all alone in my room and didn't shed a tear or anything but I probably came close listening to Alan Jackson.
I love this it's always been one of my favorite songs but when you get 70 it even means more. You know he plays a song Alan Jackson who's one of my favorite called The Older I Get. And the chorus I love the chorus in this chorus those of you who are old ought to download this put it in your playlist for sure. Maybe listen to it every morning before you get out of bed. But he says maybe it'd help you get out of bed. I could use some of that.
Anyway in the chorus it says if they found a fountain of youth I wouldn't take a drop and that's the truth. You know there's of course things that I wish I would have done better done differently. You know there's so many things that I could have improved on throughout my life but I wouldn't want to go back and live it over again. I wouldn't want to go back and start over. I know that. So I think the older you get the more humble hopefully you become because the more you know you don't know.
I think maybe the older I get hopefully the more wisdom I hope I have just that comes out of experience more than anything. The older I get the closer it seems to me that I get to my Heavenly Father my Savior Jesus Christ I think that you you just naturally begin to reflect more on them and your life and your life beyond this life which is not only not only humbling but in some ways sanctifying. So I don't know.
Hi there's there's all those thoughts and feelings that I've had this past weekend when I turned 70. Grateful grateful. I think you get more grateful grateful for count my blessings. Anything come as a big surprise to you. Nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Not really Scott. You just kind of anticipated it. Yeah. And it doesn't feel really any different. No. It just just gives me pause for some more meditation and reflection on my life and which I'm thankful for.
You know I think you said it but you know and it's probably more so this way as you get a little more advanced in yours at least that's been my experience but just realizing how much I just absolutely do not know. Yeah. Oh it's it's really true. And for brother Matthew for brother Matthew used to say that to me. Yeah. And to share that poem with me and we kind of talked about that. I remember thinking wow if he feels like he knows less I know nothing. Yeah. You know.
Yeah. And we're feeling that I was probably in my early 50s when he shared that with me. Really. Yeah. And he was about 80. So anyway that's that's kind of my life. How's your life. Life's good. Life's good. We're moving into spring here on the Wasatch Front that's bittersweet for me. I didn't get quite. I've still got a lot of skiing left to do this spring but I haven't got quite as much as I'd like to have this winter but that's a first world problem. That's for sure. You know.
We're pretty spoiled too. Are we. Yeah. Yeah. I just really hesitate to bemoan anything in my life. I'm so blessed and have so many wonderful things going on within our family. I had a really cool experience. I got to sit right where you're sitting the other night and Xander my oldest grandson kind of made a makeshift chair right next to you and we watched the jazz game together and tell you you know those are just some of the most cherished wonderful experiences as we grow older.
Yeah. That just means so much to me now. Well I guess one of the best happy birthdays I got was from my grandson. The one on a mission. The one on a mission who wrote me a special email and expressed his love and gratitude and yeah. So yeah you're right.
Grandchildren at our age this becomes an important part of our life but one thing I thought of when I said said my prayer on my birthday was to try to thank my heavenly father for my earthly parents you know that they would give me life especially my mother who almost died when I was born. You know she had to stay in the hospital for three weeks because of complications in my birth and I guess I never knew that. Yeah. Interesting. She almost died.
She was on death's door when she delivered me and I was in a they describe it like a still incubator back in those days for three weeks. She couldn't feed me. She couldn't do anything and anyway so I'm grateful for the sacrifice. My older siblings your dad could tell you probably more about that than me. I remember him telling me how Grandpa Durfee made him fix dinner or something and he was still mad at me. My dad was still you know upset that I almost cost his mother his life.
That sounds alright. He's reminded me that a few times. Yeah. That sounds alright. And anyway I'm just really thankful that she was willing to pay that price. I was a blue baby. Okay. Yeah. And the cord was wrapped around my neck and the cord had burst inside my mother. Yeah. And the cord and she was she was filled with infection and almost passed. I didn't know any of that. Yeah. Anyway so I'm really thankful for her and and all the my wife my sweetheart and all my family.
I think you just feel more gratitude the older you get. So anyway Scott we've been talking a lot about faith and maybe we should just summarize quickly here faith and maybe some of the questions we often get about faith. We've talked about faith in the general faith in God you know faith in Jesus Christ faith in the prophets faith in ourselves faith you know really another word for faith is trust trusting in them and there's different levels of faith.
I just want to remind all our listeners you can ever talk about faith as though I have it or I don't. You must talk about it in where am I at in my faith. You must always see it as a continuum and that there are different levels. There's a hierarchy to faith and it's true of all the principles of the gospel. I mean it's just it's just easy for us or human nature is that we think of things in terms of absolutes as haves or haves nots but you can't everyone has some degree of faith in the general.
You wouldn't get out of bed if you didn't have faith we've talked about that. So we've talked about the levels of faith and I want to remind all our listeners God has faith. I think it's just wrong to say that if you know all things you don't need faith. I've heard that top before. Well God knows all things but faith is the power by which he created our world by which he creates all worlds. Faith is not only a principle of belief but it is a principle of action.
I might know how to create a world that doesn't give me that doesn't automatically replace my faith. I may have perfect knowledge how to create a world but if I don't if I refuse to act on it I have no faith. Faith without action is dead. James you know talked about how you can believe but if you don't have faith and you don't put it into action it's dead. Faith is the power to believe it's the power to act and it is a principle therefore of power. That's all from the lectures on faith.
So we've talked about that in kind of the general and then we talked about faith in Jesus Christ and what that means and that's the first principle of the gospel and you cannot put that behind repentance.
This is a course mostly on repentance and forgiveness and the key to really repentance is understanding what faith is and growing and increasing in our faith to know that it's a gift of God it's a gift of the spirit and to try to receive more faith in Jesus Christ faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you try to put repentance before that you'll just spin your wheels commit the same sins over and over again.
Young adults and others end up in the bishop's office over and over and over again confessing the same same sins over and over again and there's no progression in repentance Scott. Well it's not really repentance. It is not repentance and there's no power in it. If you don't have sufficient faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So faith is the key and the life and the power. I think we ended last time maybe session or the time before that if faith is not in repentance is dead. It's just dead works.
If you confess without faith in Jesus Christ it's just it's all dead. It's definitely not repentance. There will be no progress and the miracle of forgiveness cannot take place unless it's based upon faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his Atonement. And then we talked Scott about the difference a little bit between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the name of Jesus Christ which makes it even more specific. You really want to get get power.
It's amazing how many times I invite our listeners to go look this up. How many times it tells us that we are saved by faith in the name. Faith in the name of Jesus Christ. And that includes a lot more than just faith in Jesus in the general. That means he's more than just a historical figure spiritual coach great individual or you know even even you know how we see him. But it's it's faith in his character. It's faith in who he is. It's faith in the ordinances. It's faith in his priesthood.
It's faith in you know your name is everything your name. Your name Scott represents everything and to have faith in his name means so much more than just faith in him. And elder oak summarizes some of that in the book called in his holy name. So we talked about that.
I think we introduced briefly the concept which I'm so grateful for it's a unique, unique phrase in the Book of Mormon in the lecture on faith of Amulik in Alma chapter 34 when he's talking to the Zoramites and Alma's trusty companion and after Alma teaches Christ and him crucified Amulik comes in and teaches them about faith unto repentance. Faith unto repentance that I think he uses that term about four times and I love that phrase that faith in Jesus Christ leads us to repentance.
You everyone everyone to some degree has faith faith in something but faith unto repentance has to be focused in Jesus Christ in the name of Jesus Christ and his atonement. So I think with all of that maybe as an introduction into repentance Scott we are ready to kind of take it on and as we talk about repentance and so most of the rest of our podcast will be focused on the process of repentance.
I want and I remember talking to Elder Anderson a little bit about this is that I like to talk about repentance in this with the same outline as the lectures on faith and the school of the prophets took on the principle of faith. So in the lectures on faith, Joseph Smith with Sidney Rigdon or some Pratt and others who kind of developed and wrote the lectures on faith.
They took on three questions and I think this is a principle that all of our listeners can apply in their gospel study Scott is that when you study a principle of the gospel and I that's how I love to study the gospel. I love to I love to read the scriptures chronologically. I love to read them sequentially. I love that. But mostly I love to read them but thematically by themes or by principles.
When I study the gospel, I try to use the same outline that is used in the in the presenting the writing of the lectures on faith. So when they when they wrote that they said we're going to answer three questions about faith. And I recommend that in any principle of the gospel we study, we ask ourselves the same three questions. Number one, what is it? What is it? What is faith? What is repentance? What is hope? What is charity?
So when you study the gospel and you're studying principles, that's the first question you should answer is what is it? The second is how can I obtain it? How can I obtain it? What do I have to do or or what do I have to know or how can I develop it? It's the how. And the third question is what are the blessings that flow into it or the promises? What are the blessings and promises? This kind of provides motivation in some ways of being able to obtain it.
What are the promises or blessings that flow into our life from that principle? I would maybe add a fourth question and that is why is it important? So as we as we go through now as we move into the principle of repentance, we'll kind of follow something of that order and in in again the Elder Anderson's book, the Divine Gift of Forgiveness, when we talk about repentance, I think it's really critical when you want to understand what it is, is first to understand what it is not.
And I think that's true for a lot of principles of the gospel, Scott, to understand to understand what it is, it's helpful to first understand what it's not. I learned that from Theodore Burton. When I was a branch president at the missionary training center, Theodore Burton had given an amazing, our listeners can look this up and it was a BYU speeches by Theodore Burton. I can't remember the title of it, but it was on repentance.
And Theodore M Burton back in the 80s, sometime gave this talk on what repentance is not. And he taught me really in that talk that to really understand what it is, you got to understand what it's not. So let's let's begin by defining it by understanding what it's not. Did you find the talk? Is it called the meaning of repentance? Yeah. 1985. The meaning of repentance. Yeah. So that is such an amazing talk. Yeah, it's a you can Google search that just to look up Theodore M Burton.
I just put in Theodore M Burton and then what repentance is not. That just actually came up. So the meaning of repentance. The meaning of repentance. That is one of the best talks on repentance that I've ever read to this day. You know, President Nelson is doing such an amazing job teaching it, but that still is a for me a go to an understanding what repentance is not and therefore understanding as he gets in and develops that talk to talk about what it is.
Well, when Elder Anderson, I were beginning to work on this chapter in the book, I had presented some ideas and my thoughts and feelings and my outline and my quotes and I had sent it up to him with the title. I suggested that the title for this chapter be the miss of repentance. That's how I that's how I taught it for years and you know, in my classes at UBU and so I kind of chuckled and as I read his, his new title.
He retitled it and he called it, you know, miss was just too strong of a word for him. You know, he's just so kind and so gentle as I think all of the 12 are really. And so he sent, he sent it back to me and he'd retitled it. The detours of repentance. Anyway, and I, I think this is one of my favorite. This is one of my favorite chapters of the book, Scott, it's chapter 13 in the book, the mind gift of forgiveness.
But this, this really, as I taught this over the years, Scott, I thought I, I witnessed so many students have aha moments because they had completely misunderstood really what repentance was because they didn't know what it wasn't. And anyway, this is kind of a, this is kind of a fun chapter and a, and a fun part of this course. So let's, let's just jump into it.
Yeah. Before we do though, Dave, I just want to comment on this because this is one of those things I don't think, you know, that your missionaries at the MTC and your students as they've gone through this, and you know, they've had that experience, that aha moment, that's available for us too. I mean, I don't care where you are in terms of maturity and how long you've been part of the church or how deep and strong your testimony is, there may be some aha moments available for all of us here.
And so my invitation as we go through this, don't just say, yeah, I get all that and, and assume and pass through, pass, pass, pass by all of the things that we're about to talk about here. I know you can fast forward, but I'd recommend not doing that because it's been my experience that every time we teach this, there's aha moments available to just about all of us. So without in mind, let's go ahead and proceed, Dave. Well, this chapter is such an important one, I think for E.C.
Leasticle leaders. Yeah, 100%. You know, my, my experience is in the church in the E.C. Leasticle positions. This is a chapter that I've been invited by state presidents and others to, to actually teach to their council of bishops because there's just so much misunderstanding, I think about what repentance is and what it's not. And I think this, this really helps clarify what it is when you understand what it isn't.
So I, I think the first one is just really powerful and important and elder Nelson blesses our, I'm so grateful for how he has, he has taught this, but before him, this was not always taught as strongly as he has taught it. And that is repentance is not, is not the punishment, penalty or payment for sin. Scott, there's been so many people spend their wills because they thought that they were saved by grace after all they could do.
And they thought all they could do was that they had to work out their repentance, which meant that they had to be punished for it. They had to suffer for it. They had to, in some degree, they had to make payment for it.
I mean, Scott, I hate to admit this, but my, my early elementary understanding of repentance when I was a new seminary teacher, honestly, I'm sure I must have taught this because it's how I understood it until, until I really got into the missionary training center and had to really learn about it, trying to help young missionaries repent. But I used to teach that, okay, you're saved by grace after all you can do. So how much of the sin can you pay for?
And I used to share the example of when my, my mother caught me stealing lifesavers. You know, we went in, I had worked at the dry cleaners, you know, they're an American health work and next to them, next to the dry cleaners was his five and dime store. Sprouse Ritz. Sprouse Ritz. They, I think it said, had a nickel and 10 cents and we used to call it the old five and dime. So anyway, that was right next to the cleaners.
And as a boy, I'd walk over there and brother crots, the, the manager, you know, the store, he always wave at me and they were always so nice. I was some good friends with the, the checkout ladies and then I'd walk down the candy aisle and I'd just take it a little pack of chocolate lifesavers and put it in my pocket and walk out and it got to be, I kind of got addicted on chocolate lifesavers. So wait a minute, chocolate lifesavers. Chocolate lifesavers. Do they make this?
And they were four cents a pack. Do they still make those? I don't think so. Man, I think I'd be interested in that. Oh, they were so good, Scott. That's, that's my addiction. I feel like my childhood has just started. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, they were four cents a pack and I'd just put a pack in my pocket and I'd walk over to cleaners and go in the back and hide myself somewhere and, and eat, eat the chocolate lifesavers.
Well, I was like in the third grade and first week of school, that was the summer where I started that. And the first week of school, Billy Allen and I were walking home and I said, Hey, Bill, I got it. I got it. I got to show you something. And I figured out how to get some free lifesavers. So I said, Bill, you just, you just kind of stand out here and, and I'm going to get some lifesavers. So on the way home as we were walking home, I wish I shouldn't be laughing. I'm sorry.
I walked in to grab, grab a couple packs of chocolate lifesavers. One for me, one for Billy. And I, I went to walk out and Billy wasn't around and I was a little nervous. So I thought, well, I'm going to step in the cleaners till I can find Billy or I didn't know where he went. And as I turned the corner and I go into the dry cleaners, there's Billy in the dry cleaners telling my mom what I'm doing. Billy Allen is snitching on you.
I guess, you know, so Bill Allen grew to be like, I don't know, six, 10. This guy's a big man. Oh yeah. He was a star, he's starting tight end at BYU football. So he wasn't too worried about the saying stitches get snitches, snitches get stitches. He wasn't too worried about that. No, and he wasn't, you know, and I'm, and I regret that I was such a poor example to him. You know, it's probably the reason he's, he's really not in church. Oh yeah. I'm sure that's exactly the reason, Dave.
He's kind of your lifesaver. Anyway, I love, I love him. He was one of the first ones to wish me happy birthday on my birthday, by the way. Really cool. Anyway, there he is. My mother looks up and sees me standing in the glass doorway and, and she motions to me like this and she just says, Billy, you, you better go home. And my mom just let me have it. Just let me have it.
And I remember, you know, anyway, I won't tell you all the details, but she made me sit in the front, crying my eyes out, customers coming in and looking at me. And then when she had a minute, she took me by the, probably by the year and took me over to five and 10 and walked back to Brother Crotts, who was in our bishopric, by the way, in our ward. He held seventh ward. And, and anyway, she said, David, David needs to tell you something, Brother Crotts. And I confess stealing lifesavers.
And he said, how many packs have you taken? I said, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe a hundred. I didn't know. Wow. Yeah. He kept wondering why he was running out of chocolate lifesavers and none others probably. Yeah. Inventory. Anyway, I think what's four cents times a hundred. Four dollars. So my mother pulls out five dollars. My mother pulls five dollars out of her purse and gives it to me and I give it to him. And then she says, you know, you'll work, you'll work that out.
You know, you're, you're, you're going to work that off. You owe me five dollars. Well that was my, that was kind of, as I remember it, one of the first acts of repentance after I was baptized and in the third grade. And I used to kind of sometimes tell that story and say, so how much of the sin did I pay for? Yeah. How much of the sin did I pay for? Uh, 10% 5% 2% 1% I mean, I had to pay something. There had to be something paid.
Well, if you're just going off mathematical, you paid 125% because you know, you paid five. That's for the lifesaver, but not for the sin. How much of the sin did I pay for? So I used to teach that, Hey, you have to pay something and until you pay something, then Jesus is a toman, doesn't really kick in. Scott, that's just false doctors. You can't pay back anything. Yeah. You know, man can merit nothing of himself. I don't know why that scripture wasn't on the forefront of my mind back then.
When you were in third grade. No, no, when I was starting, when you were teaching, when I was teaching this, I don't know why I was not more in tune with, with how salvation and redemption works, but, but man is nothing. And anyway, so I just, uh, you're saved by grace after all you can do after all you can do means all we can do is repent. But there is no payment, no payment, no punishment, no penalty in repentance for sin. Yes, there may be punishment. Yes, there may be consequences.
Yes, there may be some suffering and it may feel like payment, but it's not for the sin. There are natural consequences, Scott, that are the result of our sins and they're, that's right. That's good to keep us from, from sinning more often than we do, but that doesn't bring forgiveness. That doesn't, that doesn't put into our lives divine forgiveness or redemption.
I mean, just because someone's caught for murder and they spend the rest of their life in prison or even if they, their life capital punishment, if their life were taken, it doesn't absolve them of their sins, only Jesus Christ can do that and he paid for all the sins of all the world, all of it, all the sins, all of all the sins of all the world.
And until someone I think really understands that, Scott, then they, it really holds them back from repenting because they're not sure if they're ready to make the payment that they think they need to make or pay the price that they think they need to pay in order to ask God to forgive them or for Jesus' atonement to cover them. That's a problem.
I think that one thing delays, potentially delays so much potential repentance that could take place because of that fear, that misunderstanding, that fear that is attached to that can just be absolutely spiritually crippling towards us, to us, Dave. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe we should look in the scriptures for just a minute.
I brought up that scripture in the second Nephi, I think it's 25, Scott, saved by grace after all we can do and I can tell you a story about that in Nauvoo, standing on a corner and hearing this youth pastor, he was a youth pastor for a church when they were doing the open house for the Nauvoo temple. By the way, what great news about the Kirtland Temple. Oh yeah, Kirtland Temple and all the Joseph Smith properties. Yeah, isn't that awesome? Holy cow. That's so exciting.
Yeah, I just got absolutely excited when I heard that. When the Nauvoo temple was built and we were having an open house, this young youth pastor standing on the corner and I was a Delta IV, I was part of the security force. Delta IV sounds pretty efficient. It was. I had an earpiece and a mouthpiece and I looked tough standing on that corner, tried to scare away any terrorists or bad people away. That's a sight to behold, I'm sure.
And it was fun for me to stand there all day and listen to this youth pastor read from our own scriptures to put us down or to express anti-Mormon views. And he just kept pounding this scripture and it was so, well, I don't know, I wouldn't maybe say fun. It was interesting and sometimes a little sad to watch how people would try to defend our faith arguing that we don't believe this scripture.
And you know, this is a second E.Fight 25-23 where we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brother to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do. Well, I remember one young mother, she had a couple of children, toddlers, and she had a baby and a baby carriage. Man, she came by there and said, we don't believe that. He says, right here in your own scriptures.
It's right here in your own scriptures. And she said, well, we have to suffer. We have to do things when we repent. You know, when we sin, we have to pay for it. She was so, she was such a great defender of the faith. But I remember thinking, wow, I'm so sorry that she doesn't understand what she's really saying and how she is denying the atonement of Jesus Christ by thinking that Jesus did not pay for all of all the sins of all the world.
And I, after standing there, I was told I couldn't say anything to anybody really until after my shift was over and when my shift was over and I took out my earpiece and all that equipment put in my pocket. But I walked over this youth pastor and apologized to him for what some people had said. And I had to explain to him, nobody believes in grace and no one believes in more grace than we do. Then we do.
Right. And I, and he and I had a really interesting conversation and I took the copy of the Book of Mormon that he had and turned to scriptures in the Book of Mormon that talk about man can merit nothing of himself. How many times that's in the Book of Mormon that we can merit nothing of ourselves and how the atonement of Jesus Christ covers everything, including children and unconditionally and how anyway, we went through that all those scriptures and he said, wow, I, okay, thank you.
I didn't understand all of that. Anyway, I don't, I'm sure he didn't enjoy the church or necessarily changes his feelings towards probably LDS, but I didn't see him on the corner the next day. And I've often wondered, you know, how many of us in the church misunderstand this, this verse of scripture and what repentance really is. So there's all kinds of different ways that you can interpret this verse. We're saved by grace or it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.
I heard an interesting interpretation of this recently. It was that after all we can do is focus more on the law of Moses than it is the gospel of Jesus Christ and it's saved by grace is focused upon the, the pre Moses and law of Moses and more post gospel of Jesus Christ. So after all we can do is, is something that related more to the law of Moses that they had very strict laws and laws needed to be obeyed. Well, that's one, that's just one way.
It's not my favorite way, but that's one way that this can be interpreted. If you read this whole chapter, Scott, and take all of it in context, you know, when he gets to the, the second to the last verse, read the second to the last verse in chapter 25, it's verse 29, Scott. So this verse 29, and now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not. And Christ is the Holy One of Israel.
Wherefore you must bow down before him and worship him with all your might, might, mind and strength and your whole soul. And if you do this, you shall in no wise be cast out. So what do we have to do? Notice the word do. If you do this, going back to the scripture in verse 23, you're saved by grace after all you can do. Yeah. What's all you can do? Worship him. That's all you can do. That's I think, I think that's what Nephi is saying.
All you can do means you worship him with all your might, mind and strength and your whole soul. That's all you can do. And he says, and if you do this, if you do this, you shall know wise be cast out. And I have another cross reference that I want to, I think our listeners should put this cross reference by second Nephi 25 verse 23, and that's Alma 24, verse 11. So we go to Alma 24, verse 11, Scott. Let's read that verse. So in verse, Alma 24, verse 11, you want to read?
Yeah. And now, now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do as we were the most lost of all mankind to repent of our sins. What's all we can do to repent of all our sins right here, right? If you take out the parentheses there. Okay, so I'll read it without the parentheses. And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed and to get God to take them away from our hearts.
And I love that to get God to take them away from our hearts for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain. What's all we can do to repent? That's all we can do. That's what Nephi's saying. You're saved by grace after all you can do. And what's all you can do to repent to repent, which means to worship. To means to fall down. It means to turn around. It means to come unto me.
We'll talk about what repentance is in another podcast, but it means all of that. That's all we can do. All we can do does not mean making any payment. It is not the penalty. It is not the punishment for sin. And for people to have any misconception about that, we'll keep them from repenting. Repentance is worship. Repentance is moving towards Christ, turning around, putting the sins at their back and facing Jesus Christ and moving towards Him, loving Him, serving Him, worshiping Him.
That's repentance. It is not a punishment. It is not a penalty. It is not any zero percent of sin. And we spoke about Brother Matthews who wrote the Bible dictionary. And in my discussion with Brother Matthews about this, Brother Matthews said, David, we can pay zero percent. We cannot pay. And this is in the Elder Anderson's book. We cannot pay one millionth of one percent of any sin that we commit. You just can't. You broke a divine law and you're immortal. You can't make any payment.
I don't care if you give your life for it. You can't give your life. You can't suffer enough for any sin you commit. No amount of payment, no amount of restitution. My mother paying $5 for a $4 fine did not pay for my sin, paid for the lifesavers. You can make payment to society. You can do all that you can do to make up for what you did, but you cannot make any payment for the sin or the breach of a broken law of God. Only a God could do that.
Well, and a God that has fulfilled the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Who was sinless? Only a sinless divine being could do that. I just, I know, I hope some lights are going on right now in people's minds about, wow, you know, because honestly, it has been so misunderstood, I think. Oh, yeah. Scott.
Dave, so if we can just let me just share some of my experience around this misunderstanding, you know, I think most of our listeners probably know and I know we get new ones in from time to time. But, you know, my life and David's life have seemingly had a lot of parallels, but there's been a lot of diversion between the two as well. You know, for example, you know, I spent a good portion of my life involved in sinning in the throes of addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction and much, much more.
You know, since that repentance process has been different from me. You know, I've been sober 25 years and it's a lot different today than it was then. But Dave, that's how I saw this. You know, this is how I saw repentance in the past was, you know, I, and the problem with that is for people who have made what we, you know, big sins, little sins, even little sins can create and I hate to differentiate, but because all sins sin.
But you know, the big sins, little sins, I had thought that my sins, big sins were so big that there's just no possible way I would ever be able to work my way back. And I know I'm not alone when I think that I have to work my way back. That seems like an impossibility I give up. Well, working my way back has not. Well, it has something to do with me, but way less. You have to make some effort, but it has way less to do with me than I thought it did.
And what it does have to do with me has been totally rewritten in my mind and on my heart. It's completely different. Completely. Completely different. And I got to tell you the relief and encouragement, even still when I'm thinking about it, even in this moment, praise God for that understanding, because that understanding has relieved me from the bondage of guilt and shame and all other things like unto it, that the enemy, the accuser would put in front of me and have me believe about myself.
Well, think of the relief that I've had. Think of the relief that each of our listeners could embrace or could have if we were to just capitulate our belief or our understanding around the payment for sin. I can't pay for sin. I never have been able to. Never can and you never will. And it was never intended for me to. Sure, I suffer the consequences of sin. Sure, there's sadness and pain that comes into my life as a result of sin, but that is not punishment for my sin.
It's direct result of just what we call, you know, I don't know what's natural consequence. There you go. Just consequences. The natural consequences of sinning. Yeah. Of going against the light of Christ. There are consequences. You cannot find happiness in sin. People may find pleasure for a time, but eventually it's going to come back and they're going to hit rock bottom. And even when you hit rock bottom, that's not any payment for sin.
No, you know, we, when we read the scripture in doctrine, covenant section six, I think it's verse 33 where it says, doubt not fear not look unto me in every thought. Right. And, and I read that now and I do look unto him and I try to do it more frequently. I'd, you know, but the point is, is that as I do look unto him for that payment of sin, I, I'm my goodness, you know, here is Jesus Christ paying for Scott Durfee's sin.
Scott Durfee, I'm responsible and I will have to deal with consequences and so much other stuff. There will be some suffering totally different though than it was before, but that suffering that you experience in your repentance is not any punishment, payment or, or penalty for sin. And it feels different because of it. Yeah, absolutely. That is, that's really a great point. So I, I'm not being at all critical.
In fact, the quote of president of Kimball is in elder Anderson's book out of our respect for him. In elder, in elder president Kimball's book, the divine, the miracle of forgiveness for so many years. And I heard seminary teachers and priesthood leaders quote this, that unless you have suffered, you have not repented. And so they took that to mean that's part of the classical leaders and members.
My own saintly wife included this completely held her back for years until she was like 40 years old. And then the experience we shared when she was crying one day and I come home and, and she tells me she's never going to be good enough. And the reason she said she's never going to be good enough is because she kept making the same mistakes and she, she came to realize I can never do enough.
And if I can't do enough, then grace, the grace of Christ will never kick in for me because of the, all you can do. Yeah. She was hung up on all you can do. And she knew she could never do enough. And then she has that epiphany that she knew that she was good enough because he, Jesus Christ was good enough. Anyway, for years, so many people were, I think, misunderstanding what president Kimball was really said.
He said, if you, if you haven't suffered, you haven't sinned or you, I'm sorry, if you haven't suffered because of your sin, you haven't repented. Anyway, Scott, I'm, you know, I'm just sad that people think that they had any ability to make any payment or pay for any penalty for their sins. The doctrine covenant section 19 verse four, Scott makes repentance sounds like it's just the opposite of suffering. Now I know they're suffering in repentance. I know president Kimball was right. It's true.
President Kimball's right. If you haven't suffered, you probably haven't repented because you haven't felt the effects of your sin. Scott, when we get into talking about the process of repentance, we're going to talk about, you have to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. Well, that's not comfortable. You suffer. There's definitely suffering. A broken heart hurts a contrite spirit. There's some suffering in that you will suffer when you sin.
Amen. Amen. To a large degree though, Dave, some of our suffering is optional. Amen. We get to choose that. We get to decide how much suffering will I impose on myself. You know, because in a very kind of a twisted way, we almost, and I'm really reticent to put it this way, but we play God. We play judge and executioner and jury all at the same time, and we're really, really hard on ourselves. And, you know, we can't blame ourselves for this.
This is a bit of a learning process that we've grown into or grown up with or what have you. And, you know, again, you said it earlier, but this is one of the things that when, well, let me put it this way. I had a lady come up to me fairly recently, someone that I know fairly well in my ward, actually. And with tears in her eyes, she looked at me and said, thank you for helping me. And it's not me. I'm not helping her. You're helping her more than I am.
And, you know, it's the spirit actually that's helping. But she said, thank you for your podcast and help me to understand that it's not up to me, that it's not up to me. And it's so liberating for people to understand that Jesus, I mean, Scott, it's dozens of times in the scriptures that Jesus suffered. He paid. He, he was punished for all of the sins of all the world. And I believe that even includes the sins that are not repented of the payment is made. The ticket is there.
The ticket is waiting at will call for people to turn around and face a savior and get back to will call and pick up the ticket. And there is there's, is there's things they have to do? Yes. Do they have to qualify for that? For the gift? Yes. Certainly. Yes. There's things you have to do. You have to, what it, what's all you can do? Repent and worship him, serve him, worship him with all your heart, mind and strength and whole soul.
Yeah. But it's not no part of redemption and salvation is, is out of our paying for our sins or being punished for our sins or making any sort of payment or receiving any punishment anyway. Well, so you can see why we don't just start here. Yeah. Right. You can see why we don't just come out of the gate in the podcast. Say, here we are, season three, episode one. Here's what repentance is. We're going to talk about repentance. If we did that, David, it would be a mess. Absolutely.
You know, so we have to line up online, precept upon precept here a little there a little, learn and gain this experience and this knowledge and this testimony, right? Witness. Through the blood of the lamb and through the word of our testimony, right? Then we are able to proceed.
That's why it has been so important that we've talked about the events of the fall, the events of the atonement of Jesus Christ, why they were so important and how those events offset the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve. And the last couple of weeks when we've talked about faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in that power that comes to us from faith, especially faith unto repentance, you know, now we're prepared.
Now we can begin to because of a great relationship that's been established with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Now we can move in to that repentance and we can actually grasp that, you know, he did pay for it. I have, I have had an experience over the last several weeks, months going through this course and now I can grasp that I'm ready to, to take that on. He paid for my sins. Everything that we've done, Scott, everything is just to lay a foundation. Right. It's just a foundation.
But if you, if you try to build, if you try to build without the foundation, if you try to repent without everything that we've done so far in this course, it is going to be one frustrating, futile. Well, and sometimes, Dave, I would even argue that that could be damaging. Yeah, damning. Yeah. I've seen, I've seen, I've seen situations.
I know you have to where faith gets challenged in this process because our testimonies aren't sure because we don't have that grasp in that relationship with our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I think one of the saddest things in my life, Scott, that I've witnessed and unfortunately over and over again so many times is a so-called faith crisis because people have just given up. They've just thrown in the towel.
They know they can never do enough speaking about saved by grace after all you can do. They finally come to the realization they can never do enough and they become just so tired and so weary, sometimes even in well-doing, which we've been commanded not to become weary and well-doing. And I think the, the whole key in not being weary and well-doing is to understand the doctrine of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of Christ, faith, repentance.
If you don't understand the doctrine and you don't understand these principles and you haven't laid a foundation, it is one frustrating faith crisis after another experience. And it just, it makes me so sad that people, it's kind of, Scott, in the, kind of in the extreme, people who, who are trying to save themselves. It's a mockery, it really, it's a mockery of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
So I know most of that's out of ignorance, but it's still a lack of understanding and can become a mockery of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Well, let's go, let's go to 19-4. You're going to read 19 verse 4. And surely every man must repent or suffer for I, God am endless. Repent or suffer. Feels like they're opposites there to me, Scott. Repentance and suffering. Repent or suffer. You can either repent or you can suffer.
And by the way, all the suffering in the world is not going to pay for your sins. You cannot, worlds without end, make any payment for any of your sins. Jesus has paid for all of that. I remember, you know, Elder Anderson and I having a discussion about that. Do we believe? Do we believe that Jesus suffered for all the sins of all the world? Yes. Do we believe that he suffered for all the sin, all of the sin of all of the world? Yes. We don't believe in a God who would require double payment.
Do we believe that God would have his son suffer for all the sins of all the world? And then that he would expect you to suffer and make any sort of payment towards that too? Do we think that justice requires a double payment? Our God is so full of grace and so full of mercy, Scott, that there was one payment and the rest of everything that we do and there is suffering. And there, if you want to, if you want to think of it as payment or penalty, you can.
All of that is to get back to Jesus Christ and to receive his atonement, because if we don't receive his atonement, there will be no progress. Man again can merit nothing, zero nada of himself. I just, we just can't stress that enough. So Scott, this is just one point of what repentance is not. And understanding this one point can just, I think, really free people up to begin to exercise greater faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ than to simplify the process.
And to begin, to begin, even though we have several more points to make on what it's not, but they can begin to see that there are things that we can do, that we should do in order to receive all of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our life. And I testify that I know that he paid, that he suffered, that he made the payment and suffered the penalty for all the sins of all the world.
It is so interesting, Scott, I read this again, this the other day, in Thurneify chapter 11, how he introduces himself is just so interesting to me, when he appears to the people in the Americas. And the last part of his introduction of himself in verse 14, I'm just going to read this line, I am the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. That is over and over again in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants only one time in the Bible.
But Jesus introduces himself, this is the last point he makes in his introduction to the people in the Americas. I was slain for the sins plural of the world. I believe that covers all of them and I believe it covers all of it. And all we can do to receive the grace of mercy that can flow into our life from the atonement of Jesus Christ is to worship him with all of our heart, mind, mind, strength, soul, our whole soul. And that's what repentance is ultimately, little preview.
That's what repentance ultimately is, is to give our whole soul to him, to worship him. But we'll get to that, we'll get more into the details of that after we talk about the other things of what repentance is not in future podcasts. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and second repentance. And there's a reason that they're in this order. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is so absolutely critical to the process of repentance.
If we don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, which requires us to know him, to believe him, to have that relationship with him. And as we establish that, then the process of repentance and the ability for us to accept his graces, his suffering for our own becomes so much easier.
Our invitation this week would be for us to consider these things, especially as we partake of the sacrament for those of us who are able and for those of us who are not still make this part of your sacrament process. Nonetheless, let's just think about how is our relationship with our Heavenly Father? What's our relationship with Jesus Christ like and how often are we filling the administration of the atonement in our lives through the Holy Ghost?
As we do that, we will have the ability and the opportunity to understand that Jesus Christ has truly paid and suffered for all the sins of all the world. It's our prayer that we all remember that throughout this week and always. Until we are together again, be well.