Hey there everybody, this is Scott one who apologized in advance of the podcast today We have less than perfect sound quality Unfortunately, there were some technical issues that we weren't able to become aware of until after we had all recorded and parted ways Unfortunately due to timing issues and scheduling issues. There's just no way we have to get back into it
I've done the best I can to normalize the sound. I think it should be acceptable and I hope you enjoy. Thanks for your understanding Music Hey there everybody and welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. Scott and David Durfey here As always excited to do this again. How you doing Dave? Well the room's a lot better than it usually is when it's just you and me in the room. Yeah, yeah, we have a little surprise guest today We have Deb Durfey with us. Hi Deb
It's good to have Deb. Deb's obviously my my sweet Eternal companion. We're super excited to have her just worked out with her work schedule that she's able to be with us today And we plan on doing a couple of special things today's works excited to have her here with us before we get rolling though Just want to do a quick shout out and if first off We've received a couple of really great emails lately and I want to just encourage you to continue to do that
You can send us emails questions. Whatever at he redeems us at gmail.com. He redeems us at gmail.com And so we'll be getting to some of those questions that are still there shortly and So stay tuned for that All right, so here we go Dave we last week kind of talked about a little bit more as we concluded our discussion around the fall of Adam and Eve and Today we're gonna move into yes, we are a little exciting Christmas episode Coming birth of Jesus, but before we do Scott I
It is just really impossible for me to overstate the importance of understanding the need for regaemer Which also means understanding?
the reality of the fall and I I think I get more positive feedback from family friends and others of on our podcast on our lessons on the fall Scott and Then maybe any other any other podcasts that we do because I just don't think people will Understand the and appreciate the the reality part of this is being part of the father's plan I mean, I I know we invited all of our listeners to to give thanks to God for the fall but I'm not sure everyone has and
Even if they have or haven't I'm not sure they all really feel it or believe it and I just Again cannot Overstate how importance?
It is to understand the need for redeemer it was chapter 3 in Jesus the Christ when I was a young missionary that completely flipped my life and approach To living the gospel and to repentance You know, I I think I've shared my experience I for months was trying to repent and didn't feel forgiven didn't feel forgiven didn't feel forgiven and the reason I didn't Because I did not understand
That it wasn't through my efforts. It wasn't through the church. It wasn't through You know, I needed Jesus and I did not understand my need for Jesus and I think if you if you miss understanding More fully the fall you you you will not understand as fully as you need to and feel enough gratitude for a Savior and redeemer So we we last week I know we gave the seven points of the importance of understanding the doctrine of the fall one of the three pillars of the plan of redemption
But I just wanted to just say one more time that
Because I've been thinking about it all week. It's been on my mind all week It's just so critical Scott that we do not base our identity based upon the things that we do in mortality But that we base our identity upon who we are which includes our pre-mortal existence and Our potential to become like God so in a You know present Nelson desert books, but I knew kind of devotional book And you can read a quote from present Nelson for each day of the year and
Someone shared this one with me recently Based upon our discussion on who you are and this this is for present Nelson
I think it's for December till December 6th. He wrote in his book your true identity is established by and becoming the person you can become the person God wants you to be and Skipping just a little bit he says From an eternal perspective You really Who you really are is far more important Than is what you did so one more time from an eternal perspective Who you really are is far more important than is what you did?
And I just think we really have a problem in our culture not just in the church, but in our in our culture of Have accomplishment in our culture of success and that we we base our identity upon what we do and And that's it. That says
It's not just a mistake. I think it's a tool of the devil that we do that because Scott I know people, you know people we all know people That Act out in some pretty horrible ways But I'm I've lived long enough, you know, they are second-poor This is all this that's not necessarily who they really are
That's not who their spirit. That's not what their spirit is. That's not who there's their spirit That who they were meant to become From an eternal perspective It is so much more important to know who you are Than to focus on what you do Because what you do is not necessarily who you are and this is this is so important for me for you for all of our listeners to get beyond the obvious the actions of others and ourselves and to just focus upon our eternal identity and
Further to know that we have a savior who covers those things that we do for whatever reason whatever motives or the survival of the fittest things that we do to survive the world to get through the world or because of things in our past or Conditions that we live in and all the other things that God takes into account The ultimate most important knowledge one can have that makes a difference is
Knowing who they are and focusing less on what they do. I'm not saying that our actions are not important I'm not saying that what we do does not eventually determine who we become. I know there's a connection there But again from present Nelson from an eternal perspective. It's just so much more important So I hope that people will never base their identity Based upon the sins and temptations They experience in a fallen hellish world or based upon even the sins
They commit in a fallen hellish world. That is not your identity The thing about that is is I can see that it's a problem, you know and even elder or excuse me Even president Nelson says what they did You know, which puts it past tense. Yeah, right?
Yeah, but here's the thing, you know and I deal with this on a semi-regular basis in in the rooms of recovery I had a guy call me just the other day who is struggling His words not mine more than I ever have with this particular drug and with this particular addiction And he said but I Need to get to a meeting I need to get working steps against it because he he actually kind of did See who he was and didn't let any of that get in the way, right?
Even in present tense not did not did but do what we're doing not what we did but what we're doing But you but but is but for every one of those there's probably a handful of others where I'll get the same call or I'll know of I'll be I'll be made aware of the same situation and Because it's in the process of present moment It's really difficult for some people to get that to see that because of their present moment, you know, think about it You know for example
and then this is probably true regardless of the center addiction but Whenever somebody has made a mistake the first thing that we should do is fall to our knees remember him and and call upon his name and one of the hardest things for us to do is Fall in our knees remember him and call upon his name and the reason for that is because we see ourselves in the wrong light
We see ourselves and I key the accuser again exactly and we see ourselves and are identified by what we did because that's the accuser point Exactly, that's who you are. You're just a pervert and so it's super
I don't know. I shouldn't definitely never use words super easy when I've talked about this But it's a little bit easier for us to understand and maybe wrap our brain around not what I did in past tense Yeah, because it's behind us and we and we're coming to grips and we're coming to to kind of reconcile all of that but when I'm in the process and when that doing is still a part of my fabric of my life
That's creating all kinds of trouble and in trial and so forth. It's difficult to separate and say this is who I am but because of my doings are kind of keeping me anchored to a or a False belief of who I am Yeah, what's your thoughts on this dad?
You know, I just keep going back to that conference talk with president Nelson when he just simplified it with two words Think celestial, you know, and I think if we focus and it's not easy But it's simple So are we I know you know the quote, you know, are we human having spiritual experience or spiritual beings having human experiences? But maybe we should change that we should say are we till lestual beings? I?
Having celestial experience or we celestial beings having till lestual experiences and the truth is The truth is we're both and we should celebrate that because that's part of God's plan That is that is part of the plan that we would grow and progress and especially that we would learn how to love and rely
Upon Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. Yeah. Anyway, what that just kind of as a recap I hope people will thank God for the fall and again focus more on who they really are than what they did and Not ever establish their identity based upon their fallen nature okay, so Scott let's talk about the birth of Jesus and You know this all begins really with I mean We can talk about the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus and there are depending on how you count there are either dozens or there are
I think Edershine said there were like 468 468 prophecies Old Testament prophecies of the birth and life and death of Jesus Christ just in the Old Testament just in the Old Testament 468 now I mean he's using some verses and he you know they They're fulfilled like in four different ways and anyway, I Really the list I like the most there are 68 468 But the point is Jesus's birth Was at his life and his death were all prophesied thousands of years before and really the first one was
In Genesis chapter 3 we don't need to read it where he just tells them Adam and Eve that You know Satan may have power to bruise your heel Right, and then this gets a little bit into the temple but he Has power to crush your head that that's really a direct prophecy of the birth and Life death of Jesus Christ the resurrection So it really begins there and then it goes throughout I think the most most of the prophecies of the Old Testament are found in Psalms and Isaiah and
We have lots of prophecies in the Book of Mormon You know Lehi, I mean Jesus even knew his name would or I'm sorry Nephi even knew his name would be Jesus Jesus Christ and that and of course the Critics of the Book of Mormon think that's ridiculous, but Nephi made it more plain more simple they even knew his name So there are so many great Old Testament and Book of Mormon Prophecies of the coming forth of of Jesus, but may we chair a few?
I think one of my favorites is Isaiah chapter 7 Scott got it and I Think about George Handel every time we read these verses Because in three weeks he wrote the oratorio the Messiah And when I was in London this last year one thing I wanted to see was George Handel's grave And he's actually buried in Westminster Abbey and remember standing there seeing the the angel kind of engraved above his grave and thinking well Isaiah chapter 7 I
Think it starts with about verse 12. So here we go chapter 13 or chapter 7 verse 13 And he said here you now house of David it is a small thing for you to worry men But will you worry my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emanuel butter and honey shall he eat but he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good for before the child shall know to
Refuse the evil and choose the good and land that thou a poor shall be forsaken of both her kings. Yeah, I love this They knew that he would be born of a virgin that Jesus would be born of a virgin and conceive a son and his name would be Emanuel which is interpreted God is with us
God is with us. I also love the Isaiah The Isaiah scriptures and I think it's in isn't chapter 9 wonderful counselor mighty God Prince of Peace, I mean the Isaiah prophecies of Jesus that's in verse chapter 9 verse 6 For unto us a child is born Unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulders You can you can hear all this and his name shall be called? Wonderful can't sorry
Counselor the mighty God the everlasting father the Prince of Peace. Oh Wow, anyway, most of the I think handles Messiah was was taken from the prophecies of Isaiah and That's that's 700 years before Jesus is born that even you know predates Lehi and his prophecies but I love the prophecies of the virgin birth and when we talk about the virgin birth Scott we of course think of Mary and This is a element conkey said the most elect spirit of all of Heavenly Father's spirits
chosen for ordained to be the mother of His only begotten son in the flesh and I Just I just really love this story of Mary and the Virgin birth we we reject the immaculate conception of Catholics and others The immaculate conception of course is not only that she was a virgin, but that she would always that she was always a virgin
There was no ever sexual relations between her and Joseph. So therefore they make Joseph look like an old man because we know that Jesus had some brothers and sisters and Everybody justifies that if they believe in the immaculate conception by making Joseph look like he's an old man a grandpa and then Mary was a young woman who was willing to take on an old man and his his
Kitten kids as their mother had died and that this is Joseph's second marriage. We reject all that We don't believe that and further we don't we don't believe in the immaculate conception because they believe that Mary was completely Not affected by the fall at all That the the fall that she was no longer human that then that's why they they raise her to a level of Praying to her and a God and in some cases to an extreme that that she's even greater than Jesus
because who can be greater than Jesus only his mother and father and Anyway, so we we do not believe or accept the immaculate conception, but we do accept the virgin birth and I Don't know how I don't know the only thing I love how the Book of Mormon the Book of Mormon gives us the best Really, let's go down to chapter 7 the Book of Mormon gives us the very best kind of description of how how Mary conceived in Almond chapter 7 it's right at the bottom of the second column
Oh, we're saying sorry. Yeah, it's verse 10. Okay, yeah, and behold He shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers She being a virgin a precious and chosen vessel who shall be overshadowed and Conceived by the power of the holy ghost and bring forth the Son. Yeah, even the Son of God. There you go That's the best description we have of how the conception occurred
Overshadowed by the holy ghost now. I don't know what that means I don't know if she was transported by the Spirit in the presence of God or How that happened Scott and frankly I don't care and we don't need to know and Heavenly Father thinks it's so sacred
He's never gonna describe it and we'll probably never know any detail about that. All we know is that she conceived the Son of God and that when he would be born He would have all the effects of the flesh Upon him through Mary that he would experience all of the experiences of the fall through Mary But that because of his divinity only he could completely overcome all of the negative effects of the fall Not only for himself, but for all of us because he was God He was Adam
Second Adam and some people call him the second Adam and he is God so I just I just thrilled with this whole plan of how for ordained Mary was chosen To be and you know Mary if she's a good Jew She's probably 15 16 years old. She's she's a young girl and Joseph's probably About that same age or just a few years older. I mean these are probably teenage kids Joseph and Mary and the trust and preparation no doubt that God had had and put in them is Really quite amazing. Oh the tradition is is that?
Mary's mother had maybe passed away by the time this right time Gabriel appears to her Right, and that's why he sends her to Elizabeth is for Elizabeth kind of play that role for her and to prepare her for for the Motherhood Elizabeth being the mother of John the Baptist. Yes, yeah a cousin. Yeah maybe maybe Mary's mother's cousin and Zacharias being the high priest struck deaf and dumb really when he's when you think about the story of Christmas we should start in July of 2bc and by the way
I'm not gonna we're not gonna get into the one with Jesus born. I Let's just let me just get that out of the way right now by saying Yeah, you can believe anything from 7bc to 1bc Scholars argue and they have an argument for each of those Actually elder mcconkey and president J. Breuven Clark They they believe that you know he was born in 5bc and Elder mcconkey justifies all that in his mortal Messiah series But elder Talmadge believes it was 1bc
The elder bednar stated that it was on April 6th of 1bc. I mean, you know, so I We don't know it's not a part of our salvation and it doesn't matter We don't we don't need to know that and maybe he was buried maybe he was married or sorry Maybe he was born in December and maybe not. I don't I think it was April I don't Generally there aren't shepherds attending their flock by night in Bethlehem in December I mean, it's it's cold there in December and but maybe they were
Maybe it was December. I don't know I I really believe that the Romans changed the dates based upon the you know the timing of their Pagan worship, I mean that they had a big celebration on December 25th the Romans prior to 400 BC or Or our ad prior to 400 ad when Christianity became the the national the Religion of the Empire but anyway, they had this to celebrate the birth of soul the Solar Victus God that they believe in the Sun God Yeah, and that he was reborn on
December 25th because the days start to get longer You know the the shortest days December 21st And so they picked December 25th so they could have a week-long celebration of celebrating the rebirth of The soul the Sun God. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that the Romans changing it to December 25th is Not for me any basis of authority to think that that's when Jesus was born Yeah, and I actually like to think it was in the spring of the year and like a lot of things
It's moved. It doesn't matter. No, it really doesn't matter. So yeah but but Yeah, no, sorry. No, that's okay. That's okay. I think that's that's interesting important. No interesting to some Yeah, perhaps Deb. I want to get your take on Mary. Yeah Well as you were talking about that and I'm probably feel like I'm stepping back a little bit But that's okay. Well, we were in Israel. There were also two places where they believed he was born So I think there's just a lot of convoluted
Traditions yes, absolutely. So is it important? No the fact that he was born. Yes Yeah, where did you think he was born when you were there where they show you that he was born? I mean one was in a church, right? Yeah. Yeah, one was at the church Yeah I think they were both in the and I didn't it it was interesting because I I didn't feel Something powerful at either place, right? Yeah, I just thought this is interesting
I you know the pictures that you see are very different than what is there. Yeah, I think that's interesting You just said I didn't feel anything different because there were places when you definitely do. Oh, yeah, for sure Yes, I mean I totally felt something different right, you know Golgotha. I felt something different Yeah, yeah Well, I saw that we'll maybe talk more about the place But what's your I don't want to stop you from your thoughts on Mary?
so I Have often thought about this as a woman and Baring children and having a son But I just think of the faith she must have had and the trust she must have had and the I think
The word that comes to me is innocence. I think it was just You know, I think of a 15 year old child or a girl Carrying a big burden carrying a And I wouldn't call it a burden, but a big story and I I feel like For her it must have been I Mean I also think about when she held that knowing that he was a son of God knowing that How much closer could you be to God? then having that God in your womb. I Mean, I can't even imagine what Experiences and I would love to sit with her and
Ask those questions. What was it like? Carrying the son of God. What was it like? Raising the son of God. I mean it those thoughts have gone through my mind numerous times about nurturing and loving and I mean you have this perfect child and her being not perfect raising and nurturing and understanding what she knew But still
Knowing as a small child that he's about his father's business. Yeah, I Have a picture of a little boy Jesus at the top of my stairs and I remember the first time I saw that being absolutely Penetrated with the spirit thinking Of the innocence that he had You know what a beautiful depiction of That his ministry I Like the word innocence, but I also know that Mary if she was a student of the scriptures and I I know she was I knew I know she knew the prophecies
Which would have been an important part of her preparation for her to even believe Gabriel when he appeared Anyway, if she would have known the scriptures, I mean Alma Book Mormon testified of this I'm sure there's Prophecies that we don't even maybe they're not all in the Bible and I know that she must have known I know she knew that if she was gonna be the mother of God, this was gonna be rough Innocent for sure, but she had to be really tough and firm knowing that wow
He's gonna suffer and that means I'm gonna suffer. I Think she she went into this knowing all of that now Cognitively knowing it is one thing and then experiencing it 33 years later when he's Crucified on the cross and she's standing there You know at the foot of the cross what observing this So that it's experientially it's different than knowing it cognitively
But anyway, she would have known that even as a even as a young girl. Yeah, this is gonna be rough. This is gonna I mean she was she was taking a lot on a 15 and again must have been somewhat prepared Maybe they're been great adversities in her life or whatever I can't wait to someday read the book of Mary and see the videos of her young life and how God did prepare But anyway Gabriel appears if again depending on whatever month you want to you can kind of work that backwards
Gabriel appears if he was born in April he probably right appears sometime in the middle of the summer I'm married and She is espoused to Joseph well to be espoused is Like you're married. I mean Jewish Engagement is not like our engagements. They're a little flaky But did you ever break up an engagement? No, okay? Okay? Well so many do right we've had
Sir, don't spring sample, you know, you sometimes have these appointments. You're gonna do a life ceiling then all of a sudden it shows up Cancelled and and there's probably lots of reasons for that but some of those I know are probably last minute fear and broken engagements
Anyway, Mary espoused to Joseph. This would have been arranged marriage. You know, this is a they they didn't always just That Mary for love it was a different kind of love not romantic, but a sacrifice and So they she was promised she'd made a covenant with Joseph already and for her to be told this information and then to Have the Holy Ghost overshadow her and her conceive the Son of God and then to be told to go see Mary
I think it's I think it's it's awesome to think about the sequence of these events just a little bit. I Believe like elder McConkey that she would have gone to Joseph first. I think she would have told Joseph first I think she oh she I we don't have record of the Gabriel told her to do that But I think maybe he did And if he didn't I think she did it out of respect and that covenant she went and told Joseph a I'm expecting a child
This is what happened. I think she told him. I think he was prepared for this As you as we read the scriptures and most commentaries Who comment on it? Make us believe that that Joseph didn't really believe her or what's oh what's Joseph going to do? You know is he gonna have her stoned is he gonna put her away? Privilege give her a divorce. What's he gonna do? I?
Actually believe based on a Jewish commentary. I read years and years ago. I actually believe he believed her and He had decided to put her away privily because he was afraid that he was not worthy To be the stepdad he didn't want to take that on himself and did not believe he was worthy to be the dad For the son of God, I mean think about Joseph situation if Mary did go and tell Joseph
Hey, I'm expecting and it is the son of God. It's the it's a manual. It's Jehovah is with us him the Messiah Think of Joseph would you I mean really as a young man Would you would you want to take that on? And anyway, I think he he had fear It's so cool in the Announcement of Gabriel the angel To Mary to Joseph and eventually to the shepherds, right? It's fear not fear not fear not Which makes me wonder What sort of fear were they experiencing?
You know how how just think about that. We've talked about Mary Joseph, but even the shepherds what kind of fear would that invoke in us anyway? Mary tells Joseph and she says I'm gonna go see Elizabeth I've been commanded to see Elizabeth. I'll be back in six months or however long she was there I'll be back and you can tell me what you've decided to do And he wrestled with it and wrestled with it and I actually believe it's just me that he he came to the conclusion that I
Just don't know if I can do it. I don't know that I'm capable or worthy and That's when he has the dream or vision of the angel appearing to him saying fear not and and commanding to do it and At that point I like to think he actually went down and picked up Mary and brought her home We don't have a record of that But there are some traditions that believe that and I kind of like that tradition of what's Gabriel appeared to him he was He was all in
And he went down there and I don't know where they got married or when they got married but I believe they got married just as soon as he got that information and Got that witness and command from Gabriel So Mary and Joseph such an important part of of this story. I think about Joseph. I Was just reading in Matthew. This is chapter 1 verse 19 and Joseph her husband Being a just man and not willing to make her a public example and when you say just mans God that that is loaded
From a Jewish commentary standpoint. Why don't you? Yeah, talk to us. That means that means if he was a just man If he was really a good Jew, he would have stoned her So for it say him being a just man
He was a just man. He would have fulfilled the law now He did have that option but most people believe in the circumstances Jewish commentary as I've read that For him to put her away frivolously There were there had to be more to it then I mean he knew more than what he was really saying And then in 20 but while he thought on these things behold the angel the Lord appeared unto him in a dream saying Joseph
Thou son of David which is important. Yeah, you know, that's it that that's important that we recognize the Joseph His identity Exactly helping him remember who he is and that it's through this line through this lineage that the Messiah will come Exactly, right? Yeah, and if you're not to take under the Mary thy wife, you're not to take upon me See he's saying I think he's already kind of come to conclusion. It might be true because he loves and believes Mary
Yeah, he knows Mary's he knows Mary's virtuous. He knows Mary's a good woman He knows and he's and Mary hasn't said hey, I'm I'm a child by another man Mary told him I had an angel appear to me and I am the mother of God. I Think Mary clear made that completely clear to him So I mean whatever what Joseph is wrestling with is not whether Mary had an affair What he's wrestling with is Really, can I do this? That's right? And that's what I'm getting at because that that would be so
Overwhelming. I mean so what he's a just man. Okay, that's fantastic, right? Which means that he is in the faith Yeah, which if he's in the faith in the law, yeah, that's not just that's not just a little thing That's a big deal. I mean at school. It's yeah, I mean it's it's an extremely cool. Yeah 21 and she shall bring forth a son and now shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins and so and I think he's Gabriel is just
Verifying what Mary Mary had told him already told you right? Okay, so here now you get the bear now you get the The second witness now you get the witness from the angel, right? And you're going to be a new dad of the son of God. Are you kidding me? Yeah? I I don't care how just I don't care how much earthly preparation or even Spiritual preparation you put into that that seems like an impossible task from a dad standpoint, right?
So think about what all that entails, you know as Joseph He now becomes the protector of the son of God that's I read the read the proclamation to the family That hasn't changed, right? So so many responsibilities in the Jewish culture He was the protector first born son and then they learn about how Herod about you know Threaten to kill all the babies and so now Joseph has to take Mary and and Jesus a baby Jesus into Egypt for a time
Yeah, so you're not only protecting Jesus. You got to protect Mary exactly. Yeah
And Egypt at the time. I don't know why you know that might have been a hostile environment or at least at least an Unfamiliar environment for them to be in and to reestablish and you know good thing He was a carpenter and had a trade that was probably You know desirable or in demand wherever they potentially possibly went But you know, I think of Joseph we don't we don't talk a lot about in tradition and it's okay You know the focus shouldn't be on Joseph the focus should be on Jesus
But I but as a stepfather, you know, I I sometimes take into consideration And think of you know, what would I do? I you know just being a stepdad It would have been a little bit different, you know, because Mary's you know, Jesus is real father You know, there would have been very little chance of conflict between Joseph and Mary's real father, right?
Yeah, heavenly father So there are some some big vast differences, but there are some similarities that can draw empathy for those who have potentially been in that situation even stepchildren could look at that and draw Comfort and peace maybe and thinking, you know what Jesus had a stepdad too, you know, and I'm sure you know as a stepfather
You know, you always want to do the right thing. You're serious about your approach to your relationship with heavenly father so that you can teach well, Joseph's was all of that and so much more and And I just have the utmost love and respect for that man because of all of that Well, he was a man of Great trust. I mean think of the trust God would have put in Joseph. Yeah to raise his son Yeah, he got son right
Kindness, you know, yeah, and the revelations that Joseph probably would have received. I mean the relationship and Revelations along the way to Joseph received Anyway, so it's a special beginning special story
Yep, what thoughts? Yeah, I was thinking about Joseph's upbringing and how he was prepared just like Mary was prepared I think Joseph probably had his story as well ways that he had, you know, younger maybe trials maybe challenges where he was a little bit You know closer to the spirit to understand so that he could hear the spirit right so that he could receive
Revelation so that he could hear when though that important message was delivered. Yeah You know, I love I love the Michael McLean song about Joseph He's remember that And he says no He's my father Meaning Joseph saying no Jesus is my father something to that effect and I just Just think about this and what what Joseph and Mary had to know about Jesus before Jesus became a man He knew he was the creator of the world this this baby had created the worlds
I mean when he's laying in the manger, what is Joseph and Mary thinking? This babe created worlds. What? anyway, I This is a Jesus was a God before he was born. What's the title of that is I was not his father He was yeah, I want to read those lyrics because I think I think that's important. Yeah powerful Yeah, because I remember when I first heard this song or my favorites me too Was about the time I was becoming a stepdad really?
He was working late one evening when the wood he knew so well when she thought she recognized him Though at first she could not tell as she humbly begged his pardon the strange sadness swelled inside When she asked aren't you the father of the man they crucified? Then the carpenter repeated what he said so many times. He said I'm not his father He was mine
Then he humbly went on working with those worn and calloused hands though. He did not ask more questions He knew she didn't understand so he asked if she would help him and He saw her answer in a glance. She did all the chores. He asked her. She was so grateful for the chance Then when they talked for hours of Jesus and how he knew he was divine He said I was not his father. He was mine for how could one so foolish and
So flawed ever hope to raise the son of God. I love that that message That's kind of a little bit how I see it now now to be honest
You know what happened to Joseph? Oh, well, we have so much so many holes to fill in the gaps Yeah, right, we know we know some little really but but a lot of people believe Joseph must have died I mean the the really the lifespan was 40 something years at the time of Jesus and 33 years by the time Jesus is crucified most people believe Joseph has died that Jesus buried Joseph his stepdad somewhere around Ezra and That's why he's not there and that's why Mary's alone
Standing at the foot of the cross when Jesus is crucified and why Jesus is so concerned about Mary that he says to John Who's standing there with her behold thy mother Giving John the responsibility which would be You know Amazing Overwhelming for Jesus to give John the responsibility you got to take care of Mary
Now, I know James was a stepbrother Jesus. So we believe as Latter-day Saints that Mary had other children after Jesus and some daughters tells us in the scriptures that he had sisters and James and James James and Jude Are we know at least those two are half brothers?
To Jesus so he had a family. He was born and raised and had a family in the home of Joseph and Mary and They went down to let's just talk about the birth I guess now Scott in Bethlehem they went there to be taxed Went down to Bethlehem Something that I found really interesting when we were studying when I was studying the compo me to How even though he was a half brother he did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah
Yeah, yeah, they struggled with that didn't they which I think is so interesting like not being a profiting your own land Yeah, but I your own family, right? But after he was resurrected I think was when Jude said oh, yeah, I guess he is the Messiah I mean, and I think that's an important thing to think about is it wasn't all easy and
Calming and peaceful because the Son of God was on the planet. I mean they didn't believe him while he was here I mean people struggle now to believe that he is the Messiah and Christ and they didn't even believe while he was there Even his own step brother and maybe that was in some ways I've thought about that too Tim and maybe in some ways that was a protection to them I mean maybe the Lord didn't want them to fully understand everything as to protect them and
They didn't maybe know for sure until he maybe appeared to them And I think it would have been maybe among his family that he first would have appeared You know, I know the first appearance that we really have were on the two on the road to Emmaus But I like to think that he he did appear to his family
There was a step brothers and sisters and others not just Mary. Yeah, I mean he appeared to Mary I guess first then the two then the apostles anyway We'll go through all that when we talk about the resurrection, but I Think that maybe they didn't know for sure until I know Mary did I know Joseph did but the brothers sisters That'd be tough to have an older brother who your mom was telling you was the son of God
I don't know how much she told him, but you're right. They didn't really have a witness I also think about being the mom of these children and having that Sacred relationship with the Savior how do you balance that?
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, clearly. I'm not Mary But you know, I've often thought that tender relationship that she had with Jesus And then what those you know her responsibility with those other children to Yeah, no, not loving Jesus you wouldn't love Jesus anymore and you love Jude or anymore and you love James Right the others and you know something that maybe you can't you can't tell them everything Right and they didn't understand anyway, right? Yeah
Yeah, good point. Thank you Well, they go down to Bethlehem because the decree that comes out from Caesar Augustus that all the world needs to be taxed Right Luke chapter 2 so they go down there because they're there of the royal blood both Mary and Joseph are the seat of David and And David the city of David is Bethlehem. I mean, that's where that's where he kept his throne his palace
Bethlehem was a royal city. This is also a city where Ruth and Boas there. They're also Jesus also descendants of Ruth and Boas in the genealogy and That's where they lived was Bethlehem and this is where
They're really near Bethlehem only a mile away. It's where Rachel was buried the beloved wife of Jacob and I mean I mean Bethlehem was a Not just a royal city, but it was a the city of their fathers It was a sacred city and they go down there to be to do their census To be taxed and that that was probably not so much maybe a Roman Command that they go back to the city of their fathers but more of a Jewish tradition And I like to believe if it was in the spring of the year
That it would have been the same time as maybe the Passover I mean, what a better way to take a census than to do it at the time of Passover when most people are traveling To Jerusalem anyway, they can go back to their land of their origin and Then do a census. I kind of like to think that it's up. Maybe The birth is at the same time as the Passover and maybe not just because of the census but because of the Passover There's no room in the end ends actually Joseph Smith
The Prophet Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith translation. He makes that plural not just no room in the end But in the ends or the cons I mean the real translation of that is the con and back in those days the the Oriental Eastern way was you traveled in caravans And I'm sure that it wasn't just Joseph and Mary alone. I'm sure they were in a caravan
You did that for protection. He did that for a lot of just practical reasons And when you got there man, it wasn't just you you and your wife looking for a room It was everybody else looking for room and there were been lots of other people there because the census maybe because of Passover And they can't find any place to stay President Elson Then elder Nelson gave a whole talk on this at BYU devotional talking about the caravan the cons and
Where they may have stayed and he kind of believed that they stay actually, you know, if there's no rooms available That they would have just gone in the middle of a big these Ends or cons as they call them had a lot of rooms around the animals I mean just just picture kind of a courtyard filled with animals and you put the animals in the center or in the courtyard surrounded by rooms to protect the animals from wolves from thieves from others and
President Elson believes pretty strongly that he was born in the middle of All of these serums that were around them all these people and he's born in the center of them and laid in a manger among the animals there But I think many others believe that and this is this is apparently a historical fact according to the writers Ed or shy I'm far Far believe this really strongly that who wrote the life of Christ who elder Tal means another mcconkey draw a lot of
Information from he believes that he was born in a cave and there are there are hundreds of limestone caves in Bethlehem and You did you guys go to yeah, yeah, and as a matter of fact those caves were used for similar reasons You just mentioned a really used for the animals exactly Yeah, they they stayed there people would stay there They would have their animals in the cave with them There's a good possibility when I went there You know they they have a Armenian
Catholic Orthodox Church over the one cave that the Armenians these some traditions believe he was born in and if you if you go It went down to the basement. Did you guys go to Bethlehem? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? I did the old Armenian church right burning incense. Yep. Yeah, and if you go down
You can see the cave where they believe he was born. Yeah, that's one place There's another place where the Catholic the other it's a Roman Catholic Church things He was born in the middle of a church which would have been kind of I maybe like it What president Elson said, you know that he wasn't born in a cave, but in the middle of a con I know what I went there And I went there a long time ago, and it was still fresh on people's minds
That president Kay had visited there David over Kay and that he had gone to some of the other Limestone caves and he had identified he felt strongly that there was one cave and it kind of became known as the You know president Kay's impression. I remember going there and seeing that cave which was Who knows and again?
It's not that important. Although we would all love to know and maybe someday we will But here's the important point and I think young Mckonkey Really says this I could ever say it Is that he the point is it was essential that he disanned below all things and in order to fulfill that Scripture that truth that he was born in about the lowest possible conditions a Jewish baby could be born into Among the animals smelly animals no no No crib for a bed that it was He was laid in a manger
Mary would have been somewhat prepared for this and brought swaddling clothes And I know there's lots people who make it important significance of swaddling clothes and the end I and I'm fine with that I mean, I don't disagree with that but Swaddling clothes really means rags and I know she would have probably had more prepared for this
Baby than that. I think she knew that this baby was probably gonna be born in Bethlehem She knew the prophecy and Mike it prophesied of that the prophet Mike and prophesied that in the Mike chapter 5 I think it is that That she would be born in that the baby would be born in Bethlehem. So her going down there
I think she knew the baby is gonna be born. I I don't think she just wrapped him in a bunch of rags But they were poor They were really poor And they had nothing And evidence of that is when they presented him in the temple 40 days after his birth She
Sacrifices two turtle doves. Well, normally you would give a a burnt offering of a lamb and a Sin offering of a bird and but if you're really really poor you can just sacrifice two birds That's what they sacrifice evidence of their their Their poor economic situation so you know rapids while he closed lying in a major in the middle of The animals and whatever is there speculation is that did they have people who helped them was there a midwife was there?
You know who would have helped Mary with all this? I don't know. Maybe angels attended her. I don't know but but The birth was lowly Lowly That's the point. I think that's a interesting foreshadowing to Jesus's life. Yeah his entire life He spent with those who were marginalized with those who were less fortunate with the with the sinner You know with the destitute with the disease with with all Effects of the fall of Adam and Eve showing up in the human race. That's where Jesus spent his time
He experienced he had experience it. You know, it wasn't a what for Jesus. It wasn't an academic knowing It was a he knew it because he had lived it too, right and through that and because of that No, I know he's a son of God and I know the empathy could have been achieved By way of being the son of God in any way that it needed to be but he did go through that And I think that it's important maybe not for him
But it's important for us to recognize that he did go through that because now I can see a God who you know went one for example, you know Devin I mentioned earlier that we were at a funeral earlier in the week and somebody talked about how the person who had this young man Who had passed away?
Did something for a homeless person, you know And when we start when we when we do those things and and we say that's what Jesus would have done Well, Jesus would have done that out of empathy as much as anything else because he experienced some of that himself even from the very beginning Yeah, the king of kings Lord of lords right a God Born in such lonely circumstances made in a major Well, there there had to be witnesses God knew there had to be witnesses for this
So and Luke too after wrapping him as falling from laying him in a major We read about the shepherds Did you guys go to shepherds? Yeah, yeah, that was one of my favorite places There was a way we were there in June we were seeing Christmas carols And it was really sacred and as we were seeing Christmas carols up from the Kind of the hill where we came here comes a little boy a crippled boy with a couple of lambs
I'm going to be kidding me. It was just oh, it was one of my favorite Experiences was to be seeing Christmas carols in shepherds field looking over at Bethlehem on the opposite hill I mean all these cities Jerusalem six miles south is Bethlehem and they're they're built on top of these hills then
Overlooking Bethlehem. I just Well, it was so sacred so special for me and the testimonies we had a testimony meeting in shepherds field Anyway thinking about these shepherds is quite amazing and I I actually like to think I like the tradition or the thought that these are just shepherds But maybe these are shepherds over seeing the Pascal lambs or the lambs that would be sacrificed and offered at the
Temple I like that thought because ultimately, you know there this is like a calling for them and they're everything that their whole Lively hood and they're calling their their vocation is to the care for these lambs Well, who else to be a better witness of the lamb of God? Then these shepherds I Just I love this part of the story And then the angels appearing in that when I think of the angels I think where was I yeah
Where was I pretty mortally for this happen right? Yeah was it was a were we watching this? I know I wasn't part of the choir, but I would have liked to have thought I heard the choir You would have been there. Oh, yeah, you were in the choir for sure. Yeah, I know you were singing Don't think about that think if you were oh I Would love to be in a choir of angels think about that. I'll bet you were yeah I mean there was no resurrection then these are pretty normal spirits, right?
There could have been translated beings, you know, I guess I mean there could have been maybe this the choir from the city of Enic, but I don't know Could have been translated being seen yeah, but I like to think where was I well did I get to hear this choir and And I just think it's one of the great parts of the Christmas story to this choir and singing You know glory to God in the highest Wow, I just So these shepherds I like thinking the shepherd boys they would have been
Anyway prepared I believe they would be prepared for this and And they act immediately what's the what's the words in In Luke chapter 2 near the bottom of the of the page And there's a second column where it says they they went immediately. I mean they as soon as they had the command to go and Fear not and all of that peace on earth goodwill to work man they Haste
Yeah, they will with haste, you know like immediately like round. Oh man They they were so I they had to be prepared to just you have that experience and then they just immediately respond and I think they kind of know right where to go and Maybe you've seen it in a vision and they find Mary and Joseph and the babe wrapped in swallowing clothes lying in a major And it's interesting that they bring that up twice and Luke brings that up twice about the manger and swaddling clothes
Not just the Mary lay him in a manger, but they saw him in a manger. I mean, it's kind of a second witness Luke wants to make a big deal out of that I'm gonna read it. I want to read Luke chapter 2 verses 8 through Whatever and they were in the same country shepherds abiding by the field keeping watch over their flock by night And lo the angel of the Lord came upon them and the glory of the Lord shown round about them And they were sore afraid and the angel said unto them fear not for behold
I bring unto you good tidings of great joy. What shall be to all people for unto you is
Born this day in the city of David a savior, which is Christ the Lord. We just pause right there I love when I hear for unto you is born this day Mmm unto who unto me unto me is born this day in the city It is personal in the city of David a savior My savior, which is Christ the Lord and this shall be a sign unto you You shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes lined in the manger and suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of heavenly hosts
Praising God and saying glory to God in the highest and on earth peace goodwill towards men and it came to pass it as the angels Were gone away from them into heaven the shepherd said on one to another Let us go even unto Bethlehem and see this thing which has come to pass which the Lord hath made known unto us And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph and the babe lying in the manger I read things and I like to kind of see the
Maybe a metaphor in there, but you know, I think of how often it is that I'm sore afraid Yeah, sore afraid to accept for whatever reason my own inadequacies my my disbeliefs the way My my in my inaccurate view of the way I see myself not remembering who I am
But I remember those times when I am sore afraid. Yeah, I'm sore afraid But if I listen there's always heavenly hosts encouraging me to to come to him come to see this thing Which has come to pass and and you know, I think it's important for all of us I take it as a personal importance in my own life that that you know when it's dark when it's When it when I'm doing my business is righteous and as sacred as it may be it can sometimes become a
Load, you know, it can be heavy and it can be but when I when I hear that always a bad thing No, it's not but it's still heavy, you know, it's still weight And when I hear that and then when I Am and encouraged by that multitude or by the the heavenly hosts and I remember peace good will toward men That's peace toward good will toward me and then and then Well after that's happened if I will take that same attitude Let us go now even unto where ever Jesus may be found and in this case
It was Bethlehem and see these things which have come to pass which the Lord hath made known unto us You know, there's so much that can come to pass to us as we study the atonement of Jesus Christ if we study our way and what it means in our lives to turn away from anything that the effects of the The fall of Adam and Eve which we've spent the last three weeks talking about when we turn away from that when we accept the
Invitation to come and see this thing which has come to pass and then we hastily go there and And whatever that experience brings us that when we are there in the presence of Jesus Christ Who is the answer to all of the problems all of the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve? What a joyful thing that can be not just for those shepherds But for me and you and for all of us today, right? Yeah And then it's recorded in the next verse or two after that that they
Immediately went into the city. Yeah, anyway, it's the night Apparently and they go into the city. I love in chat in verse 17 when it's when basically the shepherds were bearing testimony of it Right and they were I mean like you said earlier a witness They're right. They were the witness and then they bore testimony of it and then on the next page Then people that are hearing it are wondering So we it was wondering. Yes
Witness. Yes, wondering. Yes Yeah, I love that and how many of them maybe believed and went to help the baby as well We don't know how many of them just oh, these are shepherds These are silly shepherds and discounted it didn't go look you never never did enjoy the witness that they could have enjoyed So anyway, I wanted to think I just have to Focus on 19 because I have a picture upstairs that my son Dakota gave me and
It says in there and this is verse 19 that says but Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart I think about how a mom just holds things so sacred so sacred That's a good place to end. That's that's one of my favorite verses in Luke as well. Yeah Mary How's it how she said again? I love all these things in her heart, but Mary kept all
These things and pondered them in her heart. I'm sure she's still pondering I would You imagine that right what she's thinking Deb sings the song Mary did you know You know, she'll sit at the piano and play that sing that sometimes and and it's hard not to get emotional when you hear that Because you you do wonder did you know?
Did you know Mary that your son would grow up and all of this would be part of his earthly experience and none of it Would be comfortable and easy for him let alone you right well, yeah, there's a lot more to this story and
Maybe we can finish that up next next week. Okay, we'll do it and Talked about the the coming of the wise men, which is probably about a year later You know the false tradition of Christmas which I love this tradition Is that the wise men are there on the night of Jesus's birth?
But actually they don't show up and tell about probably Within a year later just because based on the rest of the story and what here it does with infants who are to and under so most people believe Jesus could have been maybe up to two years old or Sometime after the first year of Jesus that the wise men possibly showed up after seeing the star and Taking maybe as much of the year to travel to where they needed to travel. Well, we'll talk about the
Yeah, we'll plan to do that. We have a Mary's magnificent, you know those great verses in Luke 2 about her praising God and The presentation Simeon and Anna and there there's just so much more in this Yeah, there's there's no way and then you know, there's a few secular things that maybe we should take a look at too and tie them back as well You know as part of our Christmas celebration, so so hey everybody. Thanks so much for being with us today Deb
Thanks for joining us. It's been a pleasure to have you Wish you could do this more with us, but game thanks so much everybody for being with us we Plan to take this little kind of this walk down Christmas Lane If you will as we had talked about these important things all leading up I mean the reason we're really doing this which is timely But all leading up it really to what we want to talk about soon, which is the Easter that's home of Jesus Christ
And and how he overcame the fall. Yeah, and we're excited about that. Thanks for being with us We look forward to being with you again next week I hope your holiday preparations are going smooth and and that you're feeling the peace and the spirit That is intended to be felt during this time of year until we see you or talk to you again. Be well. Take care everybody