Hi everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope, healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I'm Scott Durfey and I want to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, brother David Durfey. Good to be here, Scott. Just got back from Scotland and brought home a little souvenir of virus and so my voice is kind of off so I apologize for that.
Hey listen gang, we want to thank you all for the emails, the questions, the correspondence that we've gotten in your various ways of getting it to us and we really appreciate it. As Dave mentioned, I think last episode we do our very best to incorporate your questions. If we don't talk about your questions specifically and call them out verbatim the way that you've typed them in your emails and various forms of communication to us, we're doing our best to incorporate the general idea.
We just do everything we can to make sure that we're incorporating and including your questions, etc. So keep those coming to us. You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. And on that note, Scott, we got one that really affected me. I know it affected you too. We talked about it briefly. And so we've got that. In fact, I see you actually printed it out and it's sitting here on the table. Long communication from a young man or middle-aged man, I don't know his age.
And we'll maybe spend a whole podcast on that one. And so there are, there will be in the future. It's not that we have forgotten or that we put it off and we know you want answers as soon as possible and we'll try to get to them. Also if you wouldn't mind sending us your feedback, we know that some of you have opinions and ideas and suggestions. Please get those coming to us as well. We appreciate those very much. Well so last week we talked about repentance.
We talked about mostly what it is not, but we did spend quite a bit of time, in fact, the entire time talking about repentance and a few things around that, Dave. Prior to that, we had a guest on, I don't know if it was the week before or two weeks prior and it went really well with brother Nate Moller. Well today we have an opportunity to have another experience like that. We have a young man who is joining us today. His name is Scott Harmon. Can I say your last name, Scott?
Am I okay with that? Yeah. Okay. His name is Scott Harmon. Scott's been a close friend, really close friend of mine for what did we decide? 21 years I think. And we're going to get into how all of that materialized, how all of that came about. But Scott's got a really interesting, intriguing story, especially when it comes to his relationship with his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So with that, Scott, say hi to everybody. Hey, everybody. It's good to have you.
It's good to have Scott with us, as always for sure. So Scott, why don't we do this? Let's just kind of kick this off. We did talk a little bit preliminarily. If you want to just kind of kick off and tell us a little bit about your beginning prior to your, maybe even prior to your getting married. What was your life like growing up? Did you grow up in the church, were you raised in an area where it was predominant? Did you grow up in an area where it was not so much predominant?
Just kind of give us maybe a few minutes of background of what it was like growing up, Scott Harmon. All right. So I grew up in Orham, Utah. I'm the second oldest of seven children. And my family was always really religious, my parents dragged us to church every Sunday. And as a child, I feel like I always believed in the gospel. And I believed that in the Book of Mormon and all this stuff, but I didn't feel like for some reason I had this feeling of inadequacy in myself.
And as an early teenager was making some bad choices and I just felt like this, all this stuff didn't apply to me and that I was not good enough. So I started seeking out other methods to find peace. And all the while, even as far away as I got, I always had this small little testimony in my heart that really, I think it comes from primary. And that kind of is a testimony for the importance of primary. You have these feelings, you just can't forget from the little primary hymns.
And one of the primary hymns, a child's prayer was something that came back to me later in my life when I was in solitary confinement, which is just something that I could never get past. So no matter what, I always had this small testimony. And as early in my teenage years, I started to experiment with alcohol and drugs all the while still having my parents kind of have me go to church and just kind of living two lives and stuff.
But as soon as I moved out, I just completely abandoned going to church. And by 19, I got married. Over the course of several years, I had a couple kids with my first wife. I just picked a career. I decided I was going to be a plumber and I moved to Las Vegas to get trained by my uncle, who's a plumber, brought my family with us, with me.
And just, but down there, I just really got absorbed into the whole scene and was consuming a lot of alcohol at the time and getting into a lot of fights and also indulging in other things that I shouldn't have been outside of wedlock and stuff. And eventually, my wife at the time didn't want anything to do with it. And she left me and moved back to Utah. And at the time, we had a house and all the things that you hoped for, trying to live the American dream.
And so we've got a pretty good handle on your background. You were raised in the church, you struggled a little bit as a teenager with trying to, you said, seeking out peace. Let's jump ahead. Talk about where you and I met and maybe some of the conditions around that. So I met Scott and where I think about it, it had to have been 2002, so it was 20 years ago, and I had just come back from that.
At this time, I had come back from Southern California where in the end of that experience, I was actually homeless on the streets and I come back home to live with my parents. And while I was there, my dad brought this flyer to me that the bishop had given him and he said, I want to take you to this meeting. It was, I don't even think they had a name for it. We actually called it the LDS Substance Abuse Program. That's right. Yeah. It was called the LDS 12 Step Program. That's what it was.
The LDS 12 Step Program. That's right. I still have that original book.
It was the best kept secret in the church, which I guess it still is one of the best kept secrets, but my dad took me to the first meeting and at the time I maybe had four or five days sober and I remember I just, I really just, I couldn't share, I just cried through the whole meeting because I felt the spirit, you know, which I didn't know what I was feeling at the time, but now I look back and I know it was the spirit, you know, because I had gone through so much.
I had put myself through so much things. I had heard a lot of people in my addiction and now I was feeling something that was, you know, nice and peaceful and feeling some hope. So 2002, you and I meet there. I've seen you at a lot of various meetings and you're seeing me. I'm not there to help people. I'm there to help myself just to be clear. You know, I don't have a leadership role or, you know, or anything like that.
And I don't ever want that, you know, this podcast to come off as in that way at all because there's no such thing in those types of things. We're just together to help each other, right, Scott? And so, you know, we meet, we have some real close interactions for a time. In fact, Scott, I think if it's okay with you, I'll share it that I was sponsoring you for a period of time during that period. And you know, what happened, Scott?
And well, from 2003 to almost 2004, I was able to, you know, get some sobriety under my belt, so to say. And I was 10 days, I was super excited because I never, when I started the program, I never thought that I would ever get, you know, even a month or two sobriety. But once I got those and then I got six months, it's feeling pretty good. And I thought, geez, I might even, you know, get a year chip, which to me seemed incredible.
So, Scott, let me just, let me, for those that don't know, let me just share real quickly. In recovery rooms, it's kind of customary, depending on the program, et cetera, that we make recognition of periods of sobriety milestones. I know that's not done in a lot of other things when it comes to repentance, you know, in those types of things. But when it comes to addiction recovery, that can be an important component of it.
So Scott, you were getting anxious to pick up this one year chip you called it, that's right? Yes. And then 10, 10 days shy of that, I had been in this relationship and which, you know, another part of my addiction was codependency and relationships and, and, you know, I was just a mess. And this, this girl broke up with me and literally the next day I was just like, you know what? No, I cannot handle this pain. I can't handle this rejection. I will not handle it. I will not deal with it.
I will not allow myself to suffer through it. I will, you know, and so I just made some calls, even though I really didn't have a lot of connections and, and I within a few hours I was relapsing and, but I didn't want to tell anybody. So I pretended like everything was fine. And I kept going to meetings and stuff.
And meanwhile was using and I even had a dealer showing up to the meetings and I would walk out pretending I was going up to the bathroom and I'd go out to the parking lot and get, you know, get some substances and, and, and I still collected my one year chip, you know, and I don't remember exactly what happened. I feel like people found out anyway.
And I don't think I, I don't want to say I was suddenly honest and told the truth, but I think people found out whether it was my parents or something. And then I just, I told Scott and a couple other people, you know what, I did not actually make it to my one year and I, and I went to the next meeting and returned the, the chip to the people who had witnessed me receive it and let them know that I was not sober and that I had deceived people. And so that's what, what were your feelings?
I was there and I remember exactly how I felt that day. How did you feel that day? I felt, well, there I go again, always messing everything up, never going to be successful, mostly just really down. I didn't have the ability to feel any good feeling at the time. I didn't have the ability to feel emotions because I wasn't sober. I just, you know, I wished that I had made it, but at that point it was, it was kind of too late and you beat yourself up pretty bad. I remember that.
And then I just went, you know, completely downward, you know, just quickly. So let me tell you what I remember about that night. It was an American fork. It was at a steak center on Nob Hill and I remember when you started your share and you took that coin, that chip out. And when you started to share what you shared, there have been a few times when I have felt the spirit so thick that the hair on my arm stands up and that was one of those nights.
It's interesting how truth and how when we are able to finally be completely transparent with our Heavenly Father and others about where we are, it's interesting how that invokes the spirit. Would you agree with that? Yeah, it is. You know, even when, even when you're like, your mind's not, you know, sober or anything. There's still the spirit confined away to. What do you think that is? Do you think that's because he loves us so much? Or do you think what do you think that is?
Yeah, I think he never gives up on us, which, you know, he something that I didn't understand at the time. And I know that he never gives up. He's always, he's always there. It was always my choices and my, you know, thoughts and stuff that were keeping him away or keeping me from feeling him. But yes, I agree wholeheartedly on that. All right, Scott. So let's fast forward now. Shortly after that, you went on a little vacation.
Yeah, so this was in December of 2000, or probably early January of 2004 when I returned the ship and then April 8th of 2004, I was, I was arrested by the Orham Police Department and while I was on a job, I was, I was at the time, you know, once again, I was a plumber and I just had finished installing a water heater and came out of a garage and two plain close gentlemen were standing there and asked if my, well, my, if my name was Scott Harman and I, and I knew immediately what was going on.
And I thought for a second I should run. But then I thought, what's the point? You know, yes, I just told him, yes, I'm Scott Harman. And then I said, well, you're under arrest. He just took me in. And at the time I'm sitting in the police car, I'm thinking, what does this mean? You know, I guess I'll be gone for a few months or maybe a year.
And then, you know, once I got to the jail and went to court appearances a few times, my attorney says, well, they're offering you a plea deal and you should, you should think about taking it. And I said, well, what's the plea deal? And they said, well, it's, it's going to give you, I think 72 months or something. And as I turn my mask, no, I'm like, that's not in the Utah State prison. I don't know. That's not acceptable. I can't do that.
And I can't remember mathematically what that time is, but I, I eventually, I did, I said, well, I remember my attorney telling me, well, you know, just, you know, go back and think about it. And then at the time I was in solitary confinement for being in a fight. And so it was my only time getting out actually into normal, any kind of normal life. I was like locked down for 24 hours a day. I got out every three days for 15 minutes to shower and I never got outside.
And so I went back to my cell and I, I fell to my knees and cause I knew what I was going to do. I knew that I was going to just accept this and I just, I asked God to walk with me for these, these years that were coming up and I promised him I was not going to waste one moment of time if he would help me through this, this experience.
And by that I meant I was going to, you know, not be out there playing cards, gambling, getting tattoos, watching a lot of TV and stuff, you know, which they do in the prison. I meant that I was going to be studying the gospel, any chance I got, Institute and all that stuff. And I just made my commitment to that, to him at that time there on the concrete floor.
And I feel like for the most part I did, I read the Book of Mormon 11 times while I was in there and attended Institute every single day, you know, they had three hours of Institute from one to five PM every day and I was there for the whole time. And I became the Institute president for the, you know, the Wasec facility.
And I mean, that's, you know, that's quite a life, quite a contrast from growing up and then, you know, in primary and singing the child's prayer and then being in solitary confinement and really, really, it sounds like Scott finding your Heavenly Father probably more intimately in that setting than in any setting you've been before.
And you know, Scott, there's a certain irony about that, but there's also some people who have not understood what it's like to nail on a concrete floor with surrounded by bars and prison guards and or, or, you know, the various other iterations of that experience that we all get to experience.
But you know, Scott, there are folks who are listening to this podcast and folks that you and I know who are currently in their own though there may not be walls and there though though there may not be a cement floor that they're on. So there's still a lot of folks out there that feel like they're in some sort of prison where they're confined or where they're restricted or where, and a million other, you know, adjectives could be used to describe that.
Scott, what was it like for you to be finally filling a spirit of our Heavenly Father? It sounds like there was a lot of surrender on your part, a lot of I'm giving in, I'm going to let you use because I can't. How did your relationship and we'll start moving here into, you know, the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and His power. We'll start moving into that as part of this discussion at this point.
But you know, can you just kind of describe maybe what was that like to have that spiritual experience and can you contrast that with maybe others that you had had in the past. And while you're doing that, can you help us understand if this is the case where it was kind of a turning point for you, what made the difference this time?
One thing that stands out is when I went to my first Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in the prison and I walked into the room and some inmate had drawn this elaborate, you know, because they have all the time in the world, he'd drawn this elaborate picture that said, and it was, it said, free at last on it and they said, welcome to the Utah State prison, free at last Alcoholics Anonymous chapter of the Alcoholics Anonymous. And I was like, that's what they called. That was the name of their group.
Free at last. Free at last. Yeah, free at last. And so I mean, to me, that's how I felt. I was, I was incarcerated, but I was free. I was more free than I had ever been. I often shared that, you know, they talk in the Book of Mormon about the waters of Mormon and how beautiful it was to those who had come to know Jesus Christ.
And to me, the Utah State prison, which, you know, they're getting ready to tear it down, you know, that as ugly as it is, it was the beautiful, I came, my waters of Mormon, cinder blocks, concrete, gray bars, you know, and steel. And that's where I came to know Jesus Christ was in there.
And so, you know, I often have thought, you know, even since I've been out, that the experiences I felt in there are nothing that I could even compare to you here out in the free world, you know, they're the spiritual experiences and there are just powerful things that I can only compare to maybe being in the temple, you know, for me for the first time in 2018 when I was sealed to my family.
So I mean, I just feel more free once I was able to accept the Atonement, once I was able to realize that the Atonement actually, you know, does cover myself, you know, and then I felt that freedom that can't come from any other source. And Scott, that freedom has gifted you with a great number of gifts, Cami being one, your kids being another.
Can you talk about them just a little bit and about how you feel that that may be a gift from Heavenly Father and kind of talk about your feelings around that?
Yeah, I feel like it's really the word restoration, you know, which I think goes in red and white with the Atonement and not only can we repent and be forgiven, but we can also restore, have all the things restored that we have before or, you know, really, I've never had what I have now, and so I've been restored, you know, sevenfold from what I had before.
And you know, when I started, when I got out and I met Cami and, you know, I was 37 years old and she was, I think, 23 at the time and who would have ever thought that we would have ever dated even. We got married and we have three little kids and so, you know, I lost the opportunity to raise my other kids, which they're in my life, but, you know, I've been given a second opportunity, a second chance, you know, I like to call it the gift of second chances.
It's just, and, you know, I just, I think about every day or any time like, well, that I have, like yesterday was one of the most stressful days I've had in a long time and I was even joking with my secretary that, well, it's a good thing that I don't have, you know, a bottle or something in my office because it was a, I would have been a temptation, you know, but like at the same time, I know what would happen if I did do that and even
though, you know, Cami understands the program and she fully understands the program, but a few times she's asked me, well, how long, how much longer do you have to serve in this program? Like when are you going to be better? And I have to think, I have to think, you know what, you did not know me before, which, you know, Scott Durfee did know me before. A lot of my friends knew me before.
They don't want to, you know, you don't, I think, Cami, you don't want to know that person and you don't want to know how fast someone can go downhill from a relapse, you know, you can, you can, in four months, you can be gone and be in the prison and you're like, oh no, I want to take back the last four months of my life and do things differently and you can't at that point. And so, but we can always come back from it.
We're going to, just real quick, let me just, on that note, you know, I have a guy that every once in a while will ask me, so how long are you going to need to keep going to those meetings and this guy happens to be a good member of the church and, you know, just doesn't understand, there's nothing, but to help. So what I sometimes say to him to help him understand is, is you still going, because he'll say, you still going to meetings?
I'll say, yeah, well, how much longer are you going to need to go there? Aren't you better yet? It's been 23 years, 24 years. And I'll say to this person, I'll say, are you still going to church? And he'll, of course, say, well, yeah. And I'll say, well, you still taking the sacrament and he'll say, well, yeah. And I'll say, well, how long are you going to keep doing that? How much you got that figured out yet? And so, you know, that's tongue in cheek.
And I know it's not, well, to me, it's exactly the same and probably to you too, Scott. But I think there is that to the, to, you know, can be confusing to some folks. So, you know, can be, he's not alone. I can tell you that right now. Hey, Scott. So I want to, I want to just kind of turn this discussion a little bit towards the process of repentance. And you've talked about how to put on Christ through his atonement, how to, how to kind of do that, what you've experienced, what you felt.
I want to go back to that, to that precipitous event where you felt down, fell down on your knees and you cried out. Scott reading the Book of Mormon, the main times you did in the prison, did the term cry out, which is over and over again, describing Enos, describing Alma, describing the people of Mosiah and Alma and all throughout the Book of Mormon. There's this term cry out that day in prison in solitary confinement, you, you cried out.
Did you say that was the real beginning and that you, of repentance for you and that you continue to draw strength from that one moment? Yeah, I do. And I, and I really did cry out because I was alone in the cell and there was no one around me. There was a camera on me because there's cameras on everybody in solitary confinement because they fear someone might hurt them, harm themselves.
But I, I just knelt down and I, I cried out and I felt, I felt this feeling that, you know, that I felt as a child, but hadn't felt it until that moment. And again, and I knew that I was willing to do everything, you know, like, I think it was King Lamona who said he would give away all his sins to note, you know, give away all my sins to know the, and that's how, that's how I felt the moment because I knew that that was the only thing that was bringing me peace.
And I've often in my life since I've come back, you know, I'm out in the free world and all that for the past over 10 years. It's like I was telling my secretary yesterday, I was like, I said, you know, experiences like this that we're going through today is something that you can look back on and say, at least it's not, you know, August 8, you know, to the 22, like, at least I, you know, this is, this is bad, but at least it's not, you know, I'm not sitting in solitary confinement.
I haven't had everybody abandon me. I can talk. I can talk to, I can talk to my loved ones. I can hug my wife. You know, I'm not in a place where everyone has abandoned me except my mom. And so experiences like that, you can't reproduce, you know, and you can never, you can never forget it.
It's extremely, it's something you don't want to go through, but it's so invaluable because when times get hard in life, which they always do, and they always will, you can always fall back on those difficult times and draw strength from them. Well, that's sweet, Scott. And continuing in our thoughts on the process of repentance.
We haven't talked about this in any of our episodes yet, but the conditions of repentance is also a term in the Book of Mormon that one must meet the conditions of repentance.
And I've kind of come to the conclusion, and I know Elder Anderson shared this idea in his book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, that the conditions of repentance are a broken heart and contrite spirit, that godly sorrow, broken heart, contrite spirit, must be kind of the impetus and the beginning of the repentance process. It described to us or to our listeners, when did your heart become broken? When did your spirit become contrite?
And how did that lead up to that point in your life where you cried out unto God? But just describe, if you can, remembering that your heart was broken and your spirit was contrite. And how did you get to that? I guess what I'm asking here, Scott, is does one always have to hit the proverbial rock bottom in order to feel a broken heart or contrite spirit, or did you feel it over and over and over again as you read the Book of Mormon, and do you continue to feel it?
And at what point do you say, okay, my heart is broken, my spirit contrite, I've met the conditions of repentance, and therefore the Atonement of Jesus Christ is working in my life? When did that all, how have you processed that out in your mind? I think initially it started with my first meeting in the 12 step program, but I don't feel, I feel it because I just come back from where I lost everything or what I thought was everything.
I didn't realize I could lose more, and I had lost everything in my view, my marriage, my house, all my vehicles, everything, you know, and my tools.
I was homeless, and so I started to have that little taste of it, but like I said, you know, the ultimate moment was when I spent all that time in solitary confinement, where I was so humbled in that silence of not having anybody to talk to except for my Heavenly Father, and having to learn to create that relationship for the first time in the silence of what they call the whole, and to feel, you know, allow myself to feel that. You know, I had to just accept the pain.
I could not any longer, there was no drugs, there was no alcohol, I had to say, you know, it's okay to feel this pain, you know, which it actually took a lot longer than just that experience where I was able to accept dealing with life and on life's terms, you know, and allowing myself to feel instead of trying to just escape it all the time. Well, I think that's really, really insightful.
All of us have to allow ourselves to feel that pain, and that part of that pain is, it comes from a good place, it comes from a desire to want to have a relationship with God, and to finally realize where we're at in relationship to Him, and to realize what we have cost Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer, that really brings about, I think, that broken heart and contrite spirit that has long term effect.
I think a lot of people can reach rock bottom over and over and over again, but they never cry out to God, they never really desire a relationship with Him, like you did, you said, in fact I want to ask you about this, you said, if you will walk with me, I'll try to do this and this and this and this, I mean you kind of, in some ways made a covenant with God there on the concrete floor on your knees as you cried out to God, didn't you?
And I want to ask you, does Jesus Christ walk the halls of the prison? Elder Oaks read a letter from a prisoner that said that Jesus Christ walks the halls of the prison, did you experience that?
I did, and I remember there was an LDS, a Dictionary Recovery missionary that came in, I remember one specific meeting when he shared, and he said to all of us inmates, he said, I want you to know that Jesus Christ walks these halls, and I felt like all the hairs on my arms just stand out, because I knew that was true, it was something I had never thought about, but I've never felt those feelings that I felt in there, you know, since, and
I feel like Jesus understands the need that people have for him in there, and I feel like his spirit is focused in there for those who are willing to receive it, and there was times that it's easy to lose the spirit in there because you hear so much, so much violence and vulgarity, and I had a friend who was killed in there, one of my closest friends, and sometimes you would just wonder, is today going to be the day that I may get in a fight
or something, or offend someone, and find myself in a situation, and there was times that I would just beg, and we talked about crying out, a lot of my crying out was in my mind, especially once I was surrounded by other inmates, and I would at times kneel on my bonk and fall asleep kneeling on my, you know, wake up with my legs asleep, and those whole times I would be crying out and begging God to just help me one more day,
like I wasn't sure if I could just make it through the next day, or when I got a four-year re-hearing, you know, just every night for months just begging Heavenly Father to help me through this experience, and there was times I prayed and asked for a bubble to protect me, you know, so that I could contain that spirit within, surrounding me as I walked through, you know, I guess the valley of the shadow of death, you know, and like, because
there was a lot of things going on that would easily take away the spirit. Well, that cry out is not, for sure, is not a one-time thing, so I think that's making it another important point. Going back to the repentance process, do you mind sharing with our listeners kind of, how to, what was the church's role in helping you through the repentance process if they did play a role, and just tell us a little bit about that, and then I'll ask you some more questions about it.
So when I first came back from California, and I was living with my parents in 2002 when I met Scott Derfee, and I had someone in the program had encouraged me to talk to my bishop because I was tormented by a lot of things that happened when I was into my active addiction, because now I was sober, and I was able to feel the feelings that I were suppressed by the drugs, and so I talked to my bishop and he said that he would need to have a court,
and I never felt any kind of animosity or judgment. It was just, you know, he's, I remember the first thing he read me was Isaiah 118. The first time I walked in his office, you know, and I wish I could, maybe Dave can quote that scripture perfectly, but. Well, it's about our sins being as scarlet as red becoming as white as snow, right?
Yes, it's exactly it, and I remember like when he read that, I just was crying because I imagined, you know, the purity of snow, and just thinking that that's even a possibility was well beyond my comprehension. And anyway, I was on October 8, 2002, they held the court, and I was excommunicated. And I never felt one bit of, it was everybody's, there was
only tears, you know, in the room and love. And, and then I remember him telling me the bishops in a year from now, I want to see you back in here, and we'll get this, everything reinstated, you know. And unfortunately, it was, I think 14 years later, but it was completely different bishop and all that. But it just because it didn't pan out because I didn't ever get sober at the time, long enough to be able to experience that within a short
amount of time. So I did my time in prison, and then I got out in 2010. And I was told that I could not get rebaptized while I was on parole. And so I kind of felt like, well, I must not be forgiven yet. You know, I didn't, I didn't feel the full effects yet of it. Because I'm not, I'm not allowed to get baptized, you know, so I must be something wrong with me. And, and so I was meeting with someone, this guy and my dad's ward, and he asked me,
who's your favorite apostle? And I told him Richard G Scott. And he said, you know, what, what would, what would you think if I could set up a meeting with you and Elder Scott? And I said, I'd love it. Because, you know, while I was in prison, I had my mom send all of this talk soon. And I just loved. And so I, he was coming to speak at PYU's graduation. And this, this gentleman was able to ask Elder Scott to, if you would, you know, meet with
me and told him my story. And, and I went and met with him. I met with him at BYU. And before he went to speak at the Marius Center. And I met with him in the office of the president of BYU at the time. And he, the first thing I thought he wanted to know from what I was told, he wanted to know my story. And so when I first met him, we sat down and he held my hand the whole time. And he was just rubbing my hand and looking in
my eyes. The first thing he asked me was, he says, tell me about yourself. And I started to tell him about my past. And he stopped me and he said, I don't want to hear about your past. I would like to hear about what you're doing now. And I said, well, the bishop gave me keys to the church. And my calling is to lock the doors every night and to check all the windows. And so I go there every night at like 1030 and check everything. And he
said, Oh, that is one of the most important jobs in the whole, in the whole church. And then I told him about how I just met my wife, Cami. She was just my girlfriend at the time. And I just, we talked for, and then, and then about 15, we talked for 45 minutes, but about 15 minutes into our conversation, he, he stopped me and he said, I feel impressed to tell you something. He said, Heavenly Father wants you to know that you've been forgiven and
to forget your past. And the first time I heard it, but it didn't really sink in. And then probably halfway through the meeting, he said, one more time, I don't feel that you heard me the first time, but Heavenly Father wants you to know that you've been forgiven and that you should forget your past. And that second time I did hear it. And then at the very end, I asked, I asked someone to take, take a picture of me with him. And
we took a picture. And then right after he, he said one more time, he said, one more time, I want you to know that you've been forgiven and Heavenly Father would like you to forget your past. And I walked out of there. We had, we actually got into a golf cart and, and drove through, at least BYU students, you know, waving and cheering. And here I was, this guy who had just got out of prison with the other security people protecting Elder
Scott. And then I'm just sitting there thinking, you know, what am I doing here? As all these people are cheering. And, but when I left, I just felt so much lighter. And I knew, I thought, you know, how can I not apostle told me now, like how can I keep saying that I need to suffer more? I need to, you know, do more. I've already, I've already done seven years. Plus all the work I felt like, you know, I realized that I had done a lot of spiritual
work in there with all my branch presidents and bishops and stuff. And I thought, okay, well, this, this part's over, but now I've got to work on getting repaptized. So you, you, you shared this with me earlier, that you ended up petitioning multiple times to be rebaptized and it was rejected a few times. Yeah, it was my stake president. He actually said, you know, I think you're ready to get
baptized. Let's hold the court. And, and this is why I was still on parole and the rules, you know, are that normally you can't get rebaptized if you're on parole, but at the time they were, I'm not sure what they are now, but, but he said, sometimes they make exceptions and I think you're ready. So I'm wanting, I want to put in paperwork. And so he held the court, which was, that was just one of the most amazing experiences of my
whole life when I went in. It was a long process where they just talked to me, you know, about everything. And then I was out in the hall waiting for, it seemed forever, probably was only an hour or so. And I was just, you know, my mind I was thinking, oh, you know, maybe, I don't know what I was thinking, but back and forth, you know, thinking that
maybe it's going to be a, I'm going to get a no vote, you know. So I went back in there and I looked around and everybody had tears and they said, well, you know, it basically had me sit down and then they, I was voted to, to be reinstated. And so the stake president submitted the paperwork and after a month or two, it came back as declined. And it said, you know, just try again in a year, basically, you know, with a lot of, it was, it was a lot
nicer than that. But it was basically like, and then the next time you put it in a year later and it said, submit it, it came back as a no, and it said submit it after he's off parole, you know. And so I was released from parole March of 2017 and he submitted it that same week. And part of me was thinking, well, I might get, I'll probably get declined again. I can't, I don't want to build my hopes up. Now, let me, let me stop. Let me stop you pause for just a minute, Scott. This is, this
is all happening after Elder Scott has told you that your sins are forgiven. Yes. So, were you a little confused by that? The point I want, I want to make if you're, if you're able to kind of give us this, your point of view is forgiveness is not through the church. Forgiveness is through the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you really feel that? And did knowing that help you to get through the rest? I mean, you haven't even been rebaptized and
Elder Scott's telling you that three times that your sins are forgiven. Were you, were you able to, to draw strength from that, to sustain you knowing that it was only a matter of time before you did get back your membership? But the only thing that really, really mattered
to you was you knew where you stood with Jesus Christ and your sins were forgiven. And I'm so glad that the church now doesn't refer to those as courts, but refers to those as councils, because I think that's, you know, they're, they're really meant to be councils of love. And I know you experienced that. And I'm glad that they've kind of changed
their, their vernacular and wording about all that. Anyway, tell, tell us, tell the listeners about how knowing that you were forgiven by Jesus Christ was able to sustain you until you got your membership in the church back.
Yeah, I, I was able to draw strength from that experience because it was, it was painful, you know, to get the letter and read it and think, man, Thomas S. Monson, Elder Uctor, they all signed this and they're saying no, you know, but then I also, when my wife and I got engaged, we sent a wedding invitation to Elder Scott and just not thinking he would come or anything, but, and he didn't come, but he wrote us a, he wrote, I want to say
it was a three, a three or four page letter. And I was always able to read that letter to you and draw strength from that during, and so that's, was this a special gift to help me through that? Because I know I could have easily gone to have that gift helped me through that experience to be able to just be patient and realize that I don't understand, you know, why all my friends are getting rebaptized that we're, you know, in there, but why am
I not? And it seems like I am even doing more things than they are, you know, and, but I, I don't know what, and some of those people got sent back, you know, and I look back and I think, you know, Heavenly Father knows, Heavenly Father knows, and maybe you have to experience that trial of fire so that you can appreciate it more when it actually does happen. When it did happen, there was so many people in the chapel that no one could even
witness the baptism because nobody could fit in the room. And I mean, they could only fit so many people. So there's people all through the hall in that stake center. And I remember when I heard them opening up the curtains during my baptism and thinking, what the heck, where to open the curtains up. And then when I got up, they asked me to share and I looked over in the whole chapel and the whole basketball court was, was filled with people. And I just
was his most special experience. A lot of people knew about the struggle, you know, of getting rebaptized. And one of the most awesome things I think it's so funny is that well, it's just interesting is when I was finally approved for rebaptism, they said, well, the earliest date you can get rebaptized is April 8, 2017. And April 8, 2004 was the day I was arrested. And so April 8, 2017 is the day I was rebaptized. And the chaplain
from the prison was one of the people who spoke at my baptism. And it was just the most to hear my chaplain, you know, speaking to me as a free person was just and teaching me, you know, was just amazing to see him teaching in that environment. And it was just awesome experience. And I had to have that for it to be that special, you know, I had to go through that. But to answer your question, the experience with Elder Scott's strengthened me to be able to handle those, what you call, rejections.
Yeah. And being baptized has strengthened you and being sealed in the temple has strengthened you and and your progress and your repentance and forgiveness. It continues. I do want to explore one more thing, Scott, with you. And we just released an episode last week about what repentance is not. I think you said that maybe you you listen to that. What have you learned? You can refer to anything we said in the episode last week about what repentance
is not. But what have you learned in your experience? What repentance is not? What were some of the the wrong ideas that you grew up with or the false ideas or traditions you grew up with about what repentance is not or or what it is? For example, we said repentance is not the punishment, penalty or payment of sin. Did did you kind of wrestle with that? And at what point did you have you come to believe that that's true, that it's not punishment
or repentance is not punishment? A church, a church council membership council is not punishment. It's not penalty. It's not payment for sin. What have you learned that repentance is not and what have you learned that repentance is? I mean, what does it really come down to, Scott? I used to think that the repentance was about suffering enough that you were forgiven. You were finally forgiven if you suffered enough. I don't feel like that now. Even when
I first went to prison, I thought, I haven't suffered enough. I have not suffered enough. I need to I need to experience this. And I know now that repentance is just I don't even know what boards can describe. It's just it's it's making that next right choice.
Not even it's it's it's like an AA where they say make living amends. It's just living differently and and and allowing yourself to feel the peace that comes with that living an honest life, not worrying about, you know, whether you've suffered enough, just day by day, you know, knowing that the baptism is just a form of formality. You know, not not partaking
of the sacrament. It's embarrassing, but it's just a formality. You know, I used to bother me thinking, Oh, I bet everybody thinks that I'm like sinning, you know, because I'm not partaking of the sacrament. That was one of the things that bothered me. But I just I just have to not I just had to not care what, you know, what people think or what I perceive
people think and realize that it's not about suffering. I mean, one thing I will say about suffering is that suffering, I feel if there is if there's a cure, if there is a cure for addiction, and it is suffering, because suffering will lead you to sobriety, or to repentance. But once you're there, the suffering part isn't needed. I mean, sometimes you have to still you're going to suffer for your consequences sometimes even after you decide to turn. But
at the same time, you know, suffering isn't what's necessary. It's not necessary for repentance and forgiveness. It's it's something that leads you there. And to me, I have no desire. I mean, I don't have any desire to to use or it crosses my mind. But I don't have any desire to use or drink. And it's because I can think about I know what it's going to cause it's going to cause suffering. And and therefore, you know, I can easily work myself through any temptations or thoughts about that.
So you're confirming, I think what we said last week, which is suffering is the result of sin, not the result of repentance. Repentance doesn't cause suffering. Sin causes suffering. But that suffering may help lead us to repentance, which brings us then then peace and joy, right? Yeah, isn't that the way it worked for you? It's exactly how it worked for me was the suffering led me led me to the repentance and the free and the ultimate repaptism. And and then a year later, getting sealed to my
wife and my two small children in the temple. And so well, thank you, Scott. I'm going to turn it back to Scott, the other Scott. Scott, Scott squared here today, Scott. I need you to know one thing. I love you. And it's amazing. It's going to be difficult for me to say this, just because it makes me emotional. But it's amazing for me to see the Atonement. Let me rephrase that. It's amazing for me to see the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ work through his Atonement
in Scott Harman's life. And I I think I've had a front row seat to most of your healing. And I am so grateful. So so grateful for that. Can you just in closing, maybe share some sentiments and feelings around what it means to you to be redeemed through his blood? For me to be redeemed through his blood is, I think, you know, it's like I said before
was the the fact that I never felt that that the redemption like applied to me. One of the experiences I had in there, which changed me completely was when I was living with this cellmate that he was there for he had taken two people's lives and he was there on a life sentence. And he was this really, really nice. I mean, at the time I knew him, he was a really giant, giant man. He's African American guy and super great guy. And he had changed completely.
But gentle teddy bear, I guess, and call him and he kept asking me to get him a Book of Mormon because he had watched conference with me one one weekend. And I kept thinking to myself, well, and I didn't understand the gospel at the time, but I kept thinking, well, and you know, in my mind, I was thinking he's taking two lives. How could he ever be forgiven? And he kept asking me like, can you get me one of those books? And so one night I was
thinking and pondering and praying about it. And the spirit bore testimony to me that the Atonement has covered Thomas as well. And it kind of brought me to tears because I was thinking, well, how and and the more I thought about it, I thought, well, if the Atonement covers Thomas, then the Atonement covers me because I've never done I've never done that. And and you know, and so to me, that was where the perfect example for being a being redeemed
by his blood was was that the Atonement covered me. And I realized that at that moment. And I was able to get, you know, be finally go get him a Book of Mormon. And he started coming to Institute and all that. And he probably is still going to church to this day. But I'm grateful to just partially understand the Atonement, you know, like, I feel like it's a real interesting subject to study. And it's hard to it's hard to even understand
or bad them really. But but I do believe in it. And I do believe, you know, that I have been redeemed by his blood. And it shows in every aspect of my life and how he's blessed me with with everything that he's blessed me with to be able to walk out of prison in 2010 with nothing. You know, borrowing my dad's my dad let me borrow his clothes. I had nothing and to be where I'm at today with my wife and and my children. And I'm just so grateful
for that. Scott, I can tell you, it's an absolute joy, an absolute pleasure for those of us, your friends, and those who know you to see his image in your countenance because it radiates quite evidently. I love you and I appreciate your time being with us today, Scott. Amen.
All right, that that should wrap us up today. Ladies and gentlemen, Scott Harmon, what a great man, what a great example, please take from him the examples, the opportunities to find him, him being our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in whatever prison cell we find ourselves
because we all at times do. And if we can follow Scott's pattern of crying unto him, inviting him into our lives to walk with us daily, making that a repentance, making that a daily repentance and thereby turning to him and putting our back towards all those things that eliminate the spirit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father and the spirit of the Holy Ghost to be with us in our lives constantly. Thanks for being
with us today. We look forward to being with you again next week. Know that he loves you and that he has redeemed you through his blood.