The Suburban Women Problem: Episode 1
Amanda Weinstein: Hey everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Amanda Weinstein.
Jasmine Clark: I’m Jasmine Clark.
Rachel Vindman: And I'm Rachel Vindman.
Amanda: And this is The Suburban Women Problem. I am so excited to be a part of this problem. How are you guys feeling today?
Jasmine: Awesome.
Rachel: Very excited as well.
Amanda: But a little nervous too, right?
Rachel: Absolutely.
Jasmine: I'm nervous, but it's a good nervous. It's like, an “excited cause this is going to be awesome” nervous. We actually need to start having conversations. And so that's what I'm looking forward to with this podcast. Like I'm so excited about the opportunity to actually have conversations instead of, you know, just Tweet-sized tidbits of information that don't really get to the meat and the heart of the issues that people actually really do care about.
Amanda: So speaking of amazing conversations, coming up later, Katie Paris will join our conversation to talk about Red Wine and Blue, the organization behind this podcast who are working to mobilize suburban women across the country.
Rachel: And then after that, I will interview author and historian Heather Cox Richardson. We had a great conversation, it’s a wonderful interview. Make sure you stick around.
Amanda: Then we'll end each episode with a Toast to Joy, talking about a moment in the week, an event, a story in the news, or whatever else just gave us that little bit of extra joy. And I guess since this is our very first episode, we thought we should tell you a little bit about ourselves. Jasmine, do you wanna kick us off?
Jasmine: Sure, I'd love to. So I am Dr. Jasmine Clark and that Dr. comes from my PhD in microbiology. So that is short for I am a super science nerd. I love science. And that is probably not what you're used to hearing from someone who is also in politics. So when I'm not doing science and nerding out in the lab or in the classroom, I am actually a state representative for the state of Georgia.
And I represent a district that is in the suburbs of Georgia, in one of the largest and most diverse counties in Georgia. So when I'm not, you know, looking at microbes or talking about viruses—which is my microbe of choice, my favorite microbe—I am in the Capitol, you know, working on legislation and policy making.
I kinda got into politics in a very roundabout way. Most people don't think of scientists going into politics and they definitely don't think of them running for office, or at least they didn't use to think of them running for office. Since I ran, we have actually had several other STEM candidates actually go on to win their elections as well.
And I just think it's really important. So I hope that, you know, being a part of this podcast, I can actually bring a little bit of that perspective from the politics side. Cause it's kind of a part of my day to day, when I'm in the Capitol, right? But I can also still relate very heavily to, you know, the perspective of a woman, a suburban mom. It's a unique but a very relatable way to be in politics. So I'm really excited about this.
Amanda: Wow. I've never heard about someone's favorite microbe. I'm not even sure I know what a microbe is. Maybe that's for another discussion. But politics sometimes doesn't always seem like it's the right policy, it’s what you have to do. It's this compromise, it's kind of wheeling and dealing. So how is it actually being a scientist now that you're elected?
Jasmine: So the interesting thing about that is I actually think of a science as more of a solution-driven, like a problem-solving, type of work. A career in just… answering questions. If you really think about it, in politics and especially in writing laws or fixing laws that are not the way they should be, or getting rid of bad laws, a lot of that is about problem-solving.
And so the weird thing is I had a PhD, you know, everyone was like, “you're smart and you're ready for this.” But when I first was elected, I actually had a little bit of imposter syndrome because I was like, ah, okay, I did this and now I'm here. But will I fit in? Like, does this actually even make sense? And I found very quickly that not only did it make sense, but it was something that was actually sorely needed.
And so, you know, that's when I realized that not only am I where I need to be, but we actually probably need a lot more people in science, you know, coming to the table in different ways, whether that's running for office or getting into policy in other ways, but we definitely need those science voices. So no more imposter syndrome. I belong there. I really truly feel like I deserve that seat at the table. And that I am doing some good by being there.
So, Rachel, I have heard a lot about your story. I definitely heard about the stuff that went on with your husband. And I even had a chance to watch the impeachment hearings on TV, which was definitely a roller coaster. But, you know, I want to hear from you, like, what did you feel having to like actually live through that?
Rachel: You know, there was definitely the “before the July 25th phone call” and there's the "after the July 25th phone call.” And as the mom of a family that went through some really scary times, I wanted to tell that story and I wanted to tell it, you know, how it related to things I have seen living in other countries, visiting other countries.
So I'm Rachel Vindman, the wife of retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. I'm a mom, I am a former military spouse, since my husband's retired. I grew up in Oklahoma where I lived for 24 years before I moved to Israel for three years. And in that move, I say I learned one of the best lessons that I've really learned in life, which is that people around the world are more alike than they are different. So I always try to find commonality with people and start at that place. And I find that I can find something in common with just about anyone.
But as the election moved on, I heard and saw things that I just couldn't remain silent anymore. I was used to being silent because I was the spouse of an active duty soldier and the military is apolitical. But it's unconscionable that people in the United States would be afraid to do their job. And journalists too, having political opinions and then being afraid that their families would be in harm’s way because of things they said. And I saw that happening!
You know, our lives were very suburban and very regular before everything blew up. There were some dark days. And when Trump attacked my family, it felt incredibly lonely and scary. Then I had to stop and collect myself and realize… you know, it was a confluence of factors, but I decided to just tell my story and, you know, the feedback I’ve gotten is that my story, what happened to our family—a very, very regular suburban family—could happen to anyone if we continue to go down the path of authoritarianism. So I spoke out and I found out that I had a voice. I think a lot of people probably have those inflection points in their lives, that they look back and see it.
One thing that you said, Jasmine, and I think this is really great… you did realize that there was a place for you. You weren't an imposter. There was a place for you and your skillset. And one thing that my husband often says, and I love this, is don't self-deter. Don't self-select out of yourself out of an opportunity. If you're given an opportunity, figure out what you have to bring to the table and use that. Not everyone, you know, may have a podcast or a voice like this, but everyone can talk to their friends and they can have these hard conversations.
You know, I face… a lot of trolling. I can always tell when I hit a nerve because the Russian bots go after me, but I will tell you there's nothing anyone could say to me on Twitter that's ever going to scare me or hit me in the place that Donald Trump and his administration and cronies didn't. So Twitter will never get to me.
Amanda: Yeah, Jasmine, I know you probably get trolls on the social media and you hear some of that.
Jasmine: Yeah, I can definitely say it's really tough. You know, some days not responding—I think that I have flexed my Not Respond muscle more since going into politics than ever. It's just like, you know, I'm itching to respond. But then I'm like, no, I have to think about the bigger picture because, you know, yes I'm in politics, but I'm also a mom. And my kid is watching me, right? So I have to make sure that I'm giving her an example of how to deal with bullies.
Amanda: Yeah. And the kids are just like a whole other layer. I hear things about my husband, who is a politician, and a lot of that I can let roll off. But when someone brings my kids into it, I just like—you can't help it, you go into mama bear mode and you're like, I will attack you. Do not talk about my children.
Rachel: Yeah. So what about you, Amanda? Why are you here at The Suburban Woman Problem with us?
Amanda: So I'm a mom of three in the suburbs. We actually recently adopted a little boy, so I'm not a new mom, but I am a new boy mom. So that's a whole new world I'm experiencing, which is fun. My husband is a state representative in Ohio, he flipped a seat here in Ohio, something a little rare around here. So I'm on and off the campaign trail being a spouse. I'm also an economist.
I actually grew up in an Evangelical church. I was in the church all the time. I always felt like I had a heart for service and a calling to serve in some way. I volunteered in my church, I actually taught Sunday school, I organized food drives in high school… I always saw myself serving my community in some way.
And the Air Force seemed like a really good fit for me. It was a way that I could serve my country and give back to the country that I felt really so blessed to be a part of. And so it just felt like a natural fit for me. And the Air Force introduced me to this whole world of math and data and operations research where I could take the math that I always loved—I always loved the math and the numbers— and then apply it to decisions and how we make decisions: business decisions, policy decisions. And that's really how I got to economics.
To me, economics is the science of making decisions. And now I get to show my students how useful math and data can be to really, you know, affect our lives. It's about people. It's not just numbers. Behind every number, behind every figure, whether it's GDP or wages or unemployment, are real people.
Jasmine: I love that. I see that you're wearing lots of hats… being a mom, and a new boy mom, that's a whole hat in and of itself! I have a son, so it'll be fun. Trust me.
Amanda: The thing I find I have in common with most people is how many different hats we all wear. You know, whether it's economist and professor and mom and, you know, spouse or, you know, whatever. We are wearing these different hats all the time, and they're influencing the other hats that we have, and it shapes who we are. You know, I think being a woman in politics, sorry, I think it makes you better at politics because you're representing people who didn't have representation before. So it's interesting to see kind of how all those hats interact with each other and really build off each other to, you know, make each person better at all these different things that they do in their life.
Jasmine: I will second that on women in politics, I'm actually very, impressed and just like, intrigued by women in politics around the world. I actually think the United States is a little behind when it comes to having women in leadership, you know, compared to other countries. And then when I look at the way they handle things and the way those countries do things, I'm like, you know, maybe if we could get more women in leadership positions and decision-making positions at the table, we could have better outcomes in so many parts of our society… economy-wise, you know, infrastructure-wise, just generally speaking, I think we might be a little bit better off if we weren't so hesitant as a country to give women that seat at the table.
Amanda: Absolutely. So I think the studies show that women in politics will actually reach across the aisle more and they will work with each other more and they would talk with each other more.
And, you know, in my own life I've experienced this. I still feel like that conservative evangelical Christian in church. I still feel like the same person, but as I've let those other kinds of hats affect me… my own research, my studies as an economist, you know, I've looked at the research on things like women's health care and I've realized, you know, if I really hold these pro-life values that I grew up with, then I should care about things like women's access to healthcare and women's access to birth control.
And I had this conversation with my mom, you know, not intending to have this conversation that day, but just the way that women talk and discuss things, and just telling her about kind of the data and the research that I was, that I was finding. And I totally flipped her politically that day. Uh, just that incident where we had this conversation and I was coming at it with the same value system and respecting her value system and saying, look, I respect your value system. And here's what I'm finding are the policies that I think fit those values. And I wasn't even trying to, but I swung her down that political spectrum so far left. It’s actually still today a little surprising to me.
Jasmine: When it comes to things like that, I think that's the value in what we're doing here, like on this podcast, right? This is about having those conversations with people and opening their eyes to something that they may not necessarily have had the opportunity to talk with someone about or hear about or listen to.
And now we're like, actually, putting that content out there, letting people hear from other people and hear those different perspectives. And I think people will be surprised at, you know, what they'll get out of hearing from others that they may not have ever had a conversation with.
Amanda: Absolutely. So speaking of having conversations with women, listening to and respecting their values, that's exactly what Red Wine and Blue does every day. And we have Katie Paris here with us today to tell us more about it. So, Katie, what exactly is Red Wine and Blue and what made you decide to start the organization?
Katie Paris: First of all, I'm just so excited to be here. Thank you all for doing this. It's so much fun. Red Wine and Blue is a one-of-a-kind grassroots organization of suburban women from across the country who are owning their power. We are owning our power together.
Why did I start it? It's because I'm inspired by women. I'm inspired by suburban moms just like me who are living all across this country, super busy, juggling so much, but who just really care and have a huge set of shared experiences and shared values.
This journey really started following the 2018 election. I was living in Ohio where I live now, and honestly, I had been working in national politics for most of my career and I just gotten to a point of feeling burnt out. I had just had my second kid and gone straight back to work and I was exhausted. I know all of you guys can relate to that. And I was thinking about just sort of taking a minute, stepping back for a little while, but in the 2018 election, there was this storyline coming out of it about suburban women—women who had never been involved politically before—stepping up, stepping out, connecting with one another and making a huge difference in their elections locally and at the state level.
And I found that incredible and interesting and so inspiring and so different from the DC-based politics that I had been engaged in for most of my career. So I just had to find out about this… traveling across my home state, particularly to these suburban areas that are growing really quickly and becoming more diverse, and I just started talking to women (mostly over glasses of wine!) and just learning about their stories. What was their secret sauce that was drawing all these other women in their communities to them as they were figuring out how to make change together? And it just became so evident to me very quickly that if these women could make this much change over a glass of wine or two within their own communities, what we could do collectively together if we owned the power of our voices and the networks, the people that we can reach together.
Jasmine: I love it. So what about the Suburban Women Problem specifically? What is the suburban women problem?
Katie: So Lindsey Graham said it himself: the Republican party has a suburban women problem. And it's because they think of us as these outdated 1950s housewives who defer to our husbands on… everything?
But the reality is, I mean, just like you guys were talking about earlier, we wear a lot of different hats. Life is way more messy than anything that they seem to comprehend. They've no idea what's actually going on in our lives or what we're concerned about. So we wanted to create an organization at Red Wine and Blue that is for real women and to show up for them and their whole messy beautiful lives.
Women want to be in touch with each other and have a place for good conversations year-round. And we also want to do things together and exercise the power of our networks together because you know, what's so true about most women is that—hey, we're not political insiders, but are totally community insiders. And we know the power of those relationships within our own communities.
So, what is the suburban women problem at the end of the day? Well, Red Wine and Blue is trying to make the suburban women problem be something that all women want to be a part of. Because it's about connecting with one another, owning our voices and our values, and really making a difference on the things that we care about most… together.
Red Wine and Blue started this in Ohio really less than two years ago. After the 2020 elections, we also worked in the Georgia runoffs and things just caught fire. It has totally blown my expectations of where we are today… the number of women engaged, just the passion that women bring to this, that sense of connection that I feel with women I've never actually even met all across the country.
And I'm just hoping that this podcast can continue to reach even more women, invite them to be a part of the suburban women problem with us. I hope that if you're listening, you not only listen to this podcast, you engage with us. Like, share this podcast with your friends so that you guys can talk about it too!
Rachel: The suburbs are becoming more diverse—I know, I actually live in a majority minority suburb and that's part of what's driving this political change—but it's us as white women who have the most work to do, wouldn’t you say?
Katie: Oh, my gosh, Rachel, you are so right. Black women have been carrying a disproportionate amount of the burden when it comes to fighting for the values that I know I care about for a very long time. And it is time for white women to step up and carry more of that weight.
Now, sometimes that means stepping back and creating space for others to lead. But it also means taking responsibility though, being willing to step up and have those conversations with other white women in our communities too.
And I know when it comes to talking about politics and other issues, that can sometimes feel uncomfortable or you don't feel fully qualified to do it. So just know that you are so qualified to have these conversations. You have all the tools within you. I mean, I remember when I used to work in DC that I would look at polls and focus groups that were very expensive and commissioned to try to understand what are people in the middle of America really thinking. Well, you know, who knows what you're really thinking? You. You do. And you know how to communicate with the people that you know. So share what's on your heart, share what your values are. Be genuine, ask questions. That is how we can step up and take on some of this burden too.
Rachel: You know, absolutely. I, going back to Twitter, there are times on Twitter that people tell me I was part of the problem and I didn't care until it involved me. Until it involved my family. So I'll own that. There was a long time that I was silent and maybe I used the excuse of the military, that I lean on that too much, but it doesn't matter. I'm here now. So my eyes are open. I am ready to go and fight this fight.
Coming up next is my interview with Heather Cox Richardson. And after that, our Toast to Joy.
BREAK
Rachel: Heather Cox Richardson. I first heard about you when a friend sent me an article that you wrote about Alex and it was beautiful and it really brought me to my knees. I think, you know, we have a little difficulty contextualizing when we go through history or what are the important moments, but you've really been able to do that.
You've been able, as we live history, I think to so many women that you can really explain to them what's happening and it really resonates. Why do you think that is? Why do you think you're so able to do that?
Heather Cox Richardson: It’s funny you put it that way because it's, I think, a reflection of the world in which I grew up in which, you know, people made sense of their world by telling stories. We didn't really have TV. We had people who had been around for a long time and knew how the world worked. And so it’s how I've always contextualized my world. And then funnily enough, again, in the days when telephones were not that easy to use, we wrote letters all the time. My mother wrote letters and my girlfriends and I all wrote letters to each other as we moved around a lot.
So in a funny way, my way of seeing the world is as a story, a long and ongoing story in which we all take part. Yeah. But that was one of the things that frustrated me about watching the news when I became an adult, is that it felt like it was so shallow. It was kind of like going into a soap opera after never having seen it before. And you're like, you know, who's Vincent? And why is Julie so upset? And it really helps to have that longer story. So I think somehow it's kind of a community way of looking at the world that maybe in our modern world doesn't get as much airtime as it did before things started moving as quickly as they do.
Rachel: That makes sense. I enjoy in your books the way you tell things as a story. And I know that just as humans, as we go through life, as we get older, we realize even when we go through hard spots, that we've been through hard things before and we can go through hard things in our future because we have that experience and we know we can. But do you find as a historian that people ask you… is this worse than anything we've been through in the U.S. before? Do people ever ask you that?
Heather: All the time. People ask me that all the time. Of course I say that not only have we been through hard things before, it is more common to be going through hard things than not in American history.
I actually just wrote very recently to someone and said, you know, what do you think it looked like to people in 1943? Or what do you, what did it look like to people in 1864? Or what did it look like to people in, you know, 1935 when you know, your world was collapsing and you didn't know if you were going to get to the other side?
And I think one of the things that as you get older, you recognize is so much of, if you will, “being a hero” is just putting one foot in front of the other. Even when you feel like you can't any longer. And that, to me, is the story of American history… you know, our great heroes who did just put one foot in front of the other. Like Fannie Lou Hamer, for example, or Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington, when he's madly trying to put together an army that can hold off what was at the time thought of as the greatest military force in the world.
But it's also the story of humanity, you know? And I think that's maybe why it resonates so much with people right now. You know, in our lives, we go through a lot of pretty heavy-duty stuff. And as the old saying goes, when you're in the middle of it, the only option is to keep on going. And we're going to keep on going kind of place right at this moment.
And right now, looking at this as a historian, it does seem like we have two ways we could go. Either we could lose democracy—we could go for a full-out autocracy or an oligarchy, and we will say goodbye to American democracy. And then I won't be writing any longer, but historians someday will see this moment as the moment in which America took on its new modern form.
The other way is for us is to resurrect democracy, to have it be reborn in a new fashion. And that speaks to the question that you just asked. And that is that we have been at a point like this a number of times before… the 1850s, the 1890s, the 1920s. And what's interesting about all those times is that Americans did step up to the plate and reconstruct American democracy.
But in all of those periods when they did so, they tended to write out of the equation women and people of color. And what's interesting to me about this moment is it really seems like those voices are not being pushed out of the arena. They are not being silenced. And this could in fact be the moment when America figures out how to construct a real multicultural, multi-gendered, multi-abilitied kind of democracy. And so one way or another, I think we will see this looking backward is a really, really important moment in American history. But whether it's because we lose democracy or rebuild it, I think is the question that's on the table right now.
Rachel: And do you think both options are still absolutely on the table?
Heather: Yes.
Rachel: I agree.
Heather: Which is a weird thing, right? It's a weird thing to be living through history and having… like I say, which direction we put our feet, you and me and everybody else who is listening to this, that really matters. This is the time when everything becomes, you know, the light coming through the magnifying glass into a pinpoint. And we're all part of the process.
Rachel: Yeah, I completely agree. Which is why it's so important to me, talking about these issues and working through it and finding a place where we can really connect. You know, at Red Wine and Blue we've analyzed the stats and yours is the only Facebook page that the women in our group interact with and engage with more than Barack Obama.
Heather: Isn’t that fun!
Rachel: And again, would you just say that you feel like you resonate because of your ability to tell stories? You think that stories are why women connect with you in such a real way?
Heather: Well, I don't want to speak for anybody else. I think the storytelling is just entertaining and, you know, I'm flattered that you think I'm a good storyteller, but you should have grown up with the storytellers in my town.
But no, I think maybe one of the things that helps the kind of stuff I do resonate is that… so, one of the things that I think from my own work is really important—my academic work—and that's the idea that we're all divided is really a construction of modern politics. Americans are not that divided. They really are not. If you look at all of our hot-button issues, including abortion, gun control, all these different major issues, they really only become hot button issues once politicians take a side. That most Americans actually agree on more things than they disagree on.
You know, I live in a number of different worlds and I have friends across the political spectrum. I have friends in many many different aspects of life and it always astonishes me how similarly most of them look at the world. And one of the things I try to do is kind of get below that political fighting of this current moment and into the bedrock principles on which we all agree. Just sort of to take the vitriol out of it.
I don't sit around with my friends and scream about politics. I really don't. We talk about our kids. We talk about our gardens. We talk about things that are important to us. We talk about our jobs. We talk about being able to afford, you know, whatever, you know, uh, a new car. We don’t sit there hating people. And I think that one of the things that maybe people find in the work that I do in public now, is it's a place where people can just be people and talk about stuff without feeling like they gotta hit each other over the head.
Rachel: Yeah. I really think that it's easier to connect than the politicians would have us believe. More than that, once we do talk to each other, we can find a way to work things out. We do it in our communities all the time. But it's on the national level that—I mean, they definitely have an interest in keeping us divided and keeping us upset. As someone who's lived in authoritarian countries, it’s totally a page out of their playbook. Just to, you know, keep that strife and create fear and create division where none really exists.
Heather: I completely agree. But then that if you take a step back, what I always like to look at— and speaking of great storytellers, this is a woman who I was very very close to, and she was born in 1896 and every time I would say, you know, I would get all involved in the news or get involved in my work and talk about ideas and talk about principles, she would always say: “Who’s getting the money, Heather? Who’s getting the money and who's paying the money?”
And I would be like, “No, no, no, it's not about that. It's not about money. It's about—” and she'd say, “Heather, I was born in 1896. I lived through the Depression. I lived through World War One. I lived through World War Two. I lived through the 1960s. I'm telling you, the question is who is getting the money.”
And if you think about that, one of the things that jumps out to me every time I look at 20th Century American History, is that beginning in 1981, the money in our society dramatically began to move upward. And for all the screaming about redistribution of wealth and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell talking about socialism, money has moved upward so dramatically that it's at its biggest split now than it's been in our history. And so, whom does it benefit when Americans are fighting? And you look at that map and you say… not me!
Rachel: As women, as we kind of reach this moment, I think suburban women and women in general are realizing we have a lot of power, but some people are at a loss as to what to do with it. And where to go from here. Could you speak a little bit about women, how women have built power in the past and some other inflection points in our society in modern history?
Heather: I can. I want to warn you before I do that, though, that I am an idealist in that I believe that ideas change American society. And I will only speak for America, because that's the only country I know very well— it might be more widely applicable, I just can't say. But I believe that what changes the world is ideas. Like other people will think it's religion or that it’s social movements or that it's great presidents or whatever. But I think you change the world by changing ideas and the way that you change ideas is actually something that's very well-suited to people who might otherwise have their hands full with children or full-time jobs, or, you know, the bathroom pipes just broke and are pouring all over everything—don’t ask me how I know about that!—and, uh, one of the ways that you do that is by speaking out.
And that doesn't mean necessarily—it can, but it doesn't necessarily mean—screaming at anybody. It simply means saying, you know, “these rules are not fair.” It means saying “I won't have you in my community speaking that way about other people.” “You are welcome here.” You know, sort of changing the national conversation both by speaking out on a daily basis, but also writing to newspapers, writing on Facebook, certainly writing to every member of your local officials from the person at the bottom of the totem pole up to the president. And also to businesses saying, you know, I'm not going to come into your business because you're giving money to a cause that I don't believe in. And that is in fact a way that even before women had the vote, they changed things really really dramatically.
But here's a warning. Often women started with movements like that, and then they kind of got sidetracked and they broke into groups and they aligned no longer with sort of society as a whole, but with other interest groups that they thought could help just them specifically. White women, for example, white wealthy women.
I think one of the things that's really important to remember is that we all have to move together or we're going to be right back where we started with just some of the chairs on the Titanic rearranged. And so it's important to remember that this is not necessarily about your particular group getting a better shot than you had last year. It's about making sure our society as a whole is fair and that everybody is included in our democratic project.
Rachel: I love that. So I want to close with… we just celebrated Mother's Day. And I'm reminded of what you've said, in your work as a historian, you’ve told the historical context of Mother's Day and how it got started. So it wasn't about brunch and flowers, which in my house is better, cause breakfast in bed is kind of a disaster! So, how did Mother's Day get started? Can you explain that to us a little bit? I think it's very interesting.
Heather: And who has not had breakfast in bed made by a four-year-old? And pretended that that's a really good breakfast, like flour and peanut butter together, oh, you can't do better than that!
Yeah, the story of Mother's Day is a fascinating one because many people think it's associated with the 20th century and Anna Jarvis, who starts what really becomes a day to celebrate her mother. But in fact when she does that, she's remembering that her mother participated in the earlier version of Mothers’ Day, which was plural. The idea that mothers were going to change the world. And that comes out of Julia Ward Howe, who most people know from the Battle Hymn of the Republic, which she wrote during the Civil War.
And she had a really interesting history. She was married to an abusive man and couldn't leave him because in those days, children literally belonged to their fathers. So he would say, yeah, sure, you go ahead and leave me. But you know, you'll never see your kids again. And he was a well-known man and she stayed with him, quite unhappily. And we know a lot about this because she wrote voluminous diaries that he tried desperately to destroy. And she thought a lot about the world and who had power in the world, even under the circumstances under which she lived. And she's going to become a suffragist by the way, after the Civil War.
But she actually believed that the Civil War in America was a very good thing because it led to the end of human enslavement for Black Americans. But the Civil War was, of course, terribly bloody, I mean, more than 600,000 dead. And almost $6 billion in treasure and of course the burning of the South and so much terrible destruction, but she thought it was worth it because, you know, we'd managed to get rid of Black enslavement.
And then, in 1870, you get the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian war—at least she observes it in 1870—and she looks at the extraordinary carnage of that war and she goes… “Wait a minute, we just did this. And here we are, there's blood everywhere again, people dying everywhere again. And to what end? Like, why are we doing this?” And so she sits down, I think it's September of 1870. And she writes an appeal to womanhood around the world in which she says, “We can stop this. We're women. We give birth to sons. We can stop them from fighting each other. If we just teach them not to fight people of other countries. And if we tell our husbands don't come home, if you go to war, don't bother to come home.” You know, “don't come to us with bloody arms looking for caresses.” And at the same time, there's a woman in France writing a similar letter.
She figures, if women come together around the world, they are going to be able to stop war. And she calls for them to do it at the beginning of every June, when the weather should be nice in many places, so they can have lectures and they can talk about measures. They can take to come together as women to end war.
Now, it doesn't last all that long because she recognizes pretty quickly on that women, in fact, have a lot of lines that divide them that are going to have to be overcome before they can come together across the globe. As one people. But it's an important reminder. I think of the concept of women actually saying, “Hey, you know, we really do have a political voice and we really can make a difference.”
So when people celebrate Mother's Day these days, I always sort of say, “you know, love the chocolate, but it's actually a somewhat of a political holiday. And it's nice, it’s a nice reminder that women do in fact have a voice and a difference to make in the world at large.
Rachel: Absolutely. And it's been that way for a very long time. We still have that power. We need to realize it and use it. Thank you so much for joining us today. This was such a pleasure and an honor for me to be able to talk to you and I am going to give a plug for your book. It is an amazing book. “How the South Won the Civil War: Oligarchy, Democracy, and the Continuing Fight for the Soul of America.”
Heather: Well, thank you for that, Rachel, but I actually didn't do it for this at all for the book. I'm a huge believer in what you all are doing. And I just so love to follow you on Twitter. It's such a pleasure to actually get to meet you.
Rachel: Thank you for your support, for my family, but just for your desire to educate women and really to speak to them and for all that you do.
Heather: Well, thank you.
BREAK
Amanda: Welcome back. Rachel, it was great hearing your conversation with Heather. I could listen to her all day. So I recently sat down with my seven-year-old and I'm not sure why we even had this conversation, but I asked her, “What do you think the person looks like who wrote the history books you'll read in school?”
And she said, “I think they're white men.” And I said, “What do you think white men write about?” And she said, “I think they write about other white men.” And she knew this as a seven year old! I hadn't told her this. This is just what she thought. And to see a woman like Heather Cox Richardson talk about women in history… we’ve been left out of history books! How many history books talk about women? Is it that women didn't exist until today? Absolutely not. We were there all along, doing things, even raising the men who would be president. That was us! To see a woman talking about history, it fills that gap that I hope one day my daughter will grow up and be able to read her books and see that someone has filled that gap that she saw even as a seven-year-old.
Rachel: Amanda, I think that's great. My ten-year-old daughter has made some of the same observances. They get it. We don't have to teach them these things, they’re ready to go and make changes. And I think that's already so much farther ahead than we were at their age.
Amanda: And great talking to you, Katie Paris, about the podcast and Red Wine and Blue and all the great things your organization's doing.
Katie: Oh, thank you guys so much for being here and being a part of all of it.
Rachel: This is such a fascinating group of women. I am so proud and excited to be part of it, to have these conversations. And Jasmine, I promise not to text you all my questions about Coronavirus and Amanda, I will try not to bombard you with questions about economics. But I find all of your observances to be totally fascinating.
Jasmine: So I want to go on record… I said it here, you heard it. You can text me about coronavirus because I love nerding out on all of virology. But hey, I'm really looking forward to this, y’all. I think this is going to be an amazing, amazing podcast. I'm so excited about the topics that we're going to talk about, the people we're going to get to interview. I'm really excited to hear y’all's perspectives. I'm looking forward to this fellowship with y'all and, you know, I think we're on to something here. I can't wait to see how this comes out.
Amanda: Well, before we go, we like to leave you with what we call a Toast to Joy. It's a moment where we get to share something positive that happened to us that week, a moment of joy that can carry us through the week to come. So this week, my Toast to Joy is to my mom. She is part of why I am who I am, the fighter, the feminist, the Christian, all of that comes from my mom. And I appreciate her so much. And it still comes from her—she was watching my kids yesterday. I could not do anything I do from birth till now without my mom. So to my mom.
Rachel: My Toast to Joy is I got together with two of my best friends and we met in person for the first time since before the pandemic. They supported me through thick and thin, through everything. We have the best three-person WhatsApp group, and I could text them at any moment, day and night, and they would be there for me. So they are my Toast to Joy: the people who grounded me and protected me and went to bat for me, time and time again, over the past 18 months. It was great to see them in person.
Jasmine: My Toast to Joy is my super-duper amazing daughter. So last week, Joe Biden came to Georgia and he was here for his, like, 100 Day tour and you know, me being a politics, I had the opportunity to go see him and visit with him. And I was going to bring my daughter and, you know, she sat me down the day before we were supposed to see Joe Biden—the President of the United States!—and she says to me, “Mom, um, if we go see him, will I miss track practice?” And I said, “Yeah, you, you might, you know, these things are fluid and there’s going to be traffic and the roads will be closed.” And she said, “Um, I don't want to go.”
And I was like, “What?” And she's like, “I have a really big track meet coming up this weekend. It's the championships. It's also my last opportunity to get my times down so I can make the summer team. And so I really think I need to go to practice.” And I'm like, “President? Practice?”, but I listened to her and I missed out on seeing Uncle Joe— it’s okay, he’ll be back, my daughter reassured me, he will be back. And so, she went to practice and when I tell y’all, she rocked out at her track meet! She got a personal best in all of her races. She got her times down so that she made the summer team. She's happy and I'm happy. And, you know, I took a lesson from that and that was that, you know, Joe Biden won his race and that was her turn to win hers.
Amanda: Woo woo! Congratulations!
Rachel: And Katie, what show are you toasting this week?
Katie: Well, you guys have covered it: parents, kids, friends. So you know what my Toast to Joy is? It's to this podcast. It's to all of you.
Rachel: Thank you so much to everyone for joining us and we'll see you again next week for another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.