The Suburban Women Problem- Season 2, Episode 43
Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman.
Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.
Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein.
Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. We are now only two weeks until the midterm elections! Early voting is available now in many places, so if you haven't voted already, now's a great time.
But the stakes are so high, we cannot just vote. We also need to talk to the people in our lives about voting. You can keep track of those conversations and get personalized support by going to the RWBVotes.com site.
So today, instead of having one featured guest, I get to share a panel I moderated with three experts on extremism.
Amanda: I love this topic right now because I'm sure Jasmine knows, now is the nasty season of campaign time.
Jasmine: Oh yes.
Amanda: All the nasty. And oh man, the extremism combined with the nasty season of campaigns, it is ugly out there right now.
Rachel: It's interesting, last week I was invited to the White House with a group of people who are very on Twitter and social media and, and really, I mean, the gist of it is the White House understands that even though they've done good things, they're just having a hard time getting those things covered.
I was telling the person who put it together, she's really great, she's young, she's only been working there a couple weeks, and I was telling her, you know, I went out for three weeks and met women. Not one person told me the economy was a thing that they think about all the time. I'm sure they all think about the economy, right? I mean, I think about it when I order groceries or buy groceries and when I get gas, I notice the price, like I do think about it.
But not the way I think about extremism. And that's what these women told me. Extremism in their schools, extremism in their communities, the way that's affecting their children. And of course choice. That is what people talked about over and over again.
And where is the disconnect? Cause even the Biden administration keeps wanting to talk about the economy. And I'm like, I'm not sure it's the economy. I really think you should acknowledge that this extremism thing is a big freaking deal to people. What do you guys think about that?
Amanda: Well, I think the polls don't ask people, “What do you mean about the economy?” Like I'm an economist and I’m like… what? Like to some person that means jobs, to other people that means prices, to other people that means do my kids have an opportunity to be who they want to be. Like you need to talk about what does that mean for my kid? What does that mean for my family? What does that mean for my neighbor? And that's the way we're talking about abortion and extremism. Like, I don't want you to come be nutters in my school. Get out of my school and get out of my government.
Jasmine: Stacey Abrams… the media did this thing where they basically flipped what she was saying and tried to make it seem like it was a gaffe, but Stacey Abrams basically said you cannot unmarry access to reproductive rights from economic issues. They are economic issues for families. So when you talk about the economy, sometimes that might mean having the ability to decide whether or not you are in a place to start a family.
But I just feel like, you know, these pollsters and sometimes in even the media, they just want something sensational. They want something to be like, “Ooh, I can't believe you said that.” And what she's saying is so true to people who've ever had to pay for daycare. For people who've ever had to buy formula.
Rachel: And they don't wanna say it because people can be really embarrassed about saying that, but it's reality. You know, because it's not supposed to be. “Children are a blessing.” They are a blessing. I love my blessing.
Amanda: They're also really hard and expensive.
Rachel: Yeah! And why can't we talk about that? Why can't both things be true? But I guarantee you when you say things like that, you are giving someone else permission to say, “I feel that way too. And I was so scared to say it.” And when Stacey Abrams said that, I, cause I followed this story a little bit, that was the first thing I thought. I was like, when she said that, she spoke to so many people who have been afraid or maybe embarrassed or ashamed of having those feelings.
The media literally tells us that they don't wanna cover these things because they're “boring.” That's like a quote, that it's “boring.” Just like we talk about relational organizing to get out the information, you know, to get through these information silos that we're in. We've also gotta do that with what's happening with the bills that are being passed and what that means for real people's lives. This information is just not getting out there. And you know, Herschel Walker is getting so much more air time cause he says stupid stuff every day.
Jasmine: It's literally Trump all over again. It's literally Trump all over again! It's the whole, like, Herschel Walker cannot tell you a single solitary plan that he has. But he still gets so much air time! I mean, Herschel Walker can fart and that will be like front page news.
Rachel: That might be the most successful thing he's done that day.
Amanda: Haha.
Jasmine: But I mean, Warnock literally, he needs to lay out a plan on how to cure all the cancers in the entire world for them to even say anything about him.
Amanda: Snooze fest!
Jasmine: Exactly!
Amanda: I mean, I get that journalism is a hard job, so I get that, but at the same time, it's an important job and like we need to get this right. And part of what we need to get right is honestly, a lot of journalists need to hold Republicans' feet under the fire more. Why aren't we talking more about the fact that Republicans are responsible for getting rid of the CTC, the child tax credit? Which was a tax increase for middle class families with children. They're responsible for getting rid of universal lunches, which basically costs us all more money now.
So I don't wanna hear “they are for low taxes.” We know this, but I just don't hear the attacks. Like I wish I would hear more people talk about that, cause I have not forgotten about either of those two things.
Jasmine: Yep.
Rachel: You know, in addition to that, there’s just absolute nonsense of the extremism. We saw it with the antisemitism from Kanye West, who is like literally mentally ill…
Amanda: It's bad. And it's not just Kanye. So Casey has faced some very blatant antisemitism, like more blatant than we have had in the past. And like part of this is interesting for me as a… so I'm a Christian, I'm not Jewish, but my husband is Jewish and we are raising our kids mostly Jewish, and they identify as being Jewish.
And so part of this is interesting, like seeing what Kanye said, and I don't know if you saw there's a picture of people on a bridge who were super supportive of Kanye and how he feels about Jewish people. You're talking about my eight year old and my four-year-old! Like that's who you’re talking about. And so when I hear those things like… you're talking about a four year old! Like are you really that offended and scared of my four year old? Grow up.
Jasmine: We are in a position where there are people running on extreme platforms. It's not even like they're pretending to be moderate. They're not pulling the, like, Glenn Youngkin whole like “Oh, I'm Mr. Rogers by day, but by night I'm an evil villain.” They're more like, “No, I'm the evil villain and you should vote for me because I'm an evil villain.”
Amanda: One thing that has surprised me, so I'm on the board of the ADL and we, and the ADL's done, I think, a great job at reaching out to minority communities that face racism, and I am always… I don't know if “surprised” is the right word, but I always see the connection between racism and antisemitism as so intertwined that I am surprised, like, how closely related that is. That people can look different, be different, but if there's some way to other you, whether it's your race, your religion, your immigration status, like that all just lumps right in together so easily for some people.
Jasmine: Yeah. It actually honestly is kind of like a fill in the blank. Like they just take the stereotype and then they just fill in the blank with the group that they want to target that week. So if it's Black people, then they do that, that's–
Amanda: Trans…
Jasmine: Yeah. If it's trans kids, they do that. And the rest of the sentence is pretty much the exact same. It's just what group they feel like targeting that week. And it's really concerning to me because I feel like it's getting worse and, you know, sometimes I try to check myself and be like, “Is it getting worse? Or are we just seeing more of it?”
Rachel: Yeah, I think this all the time.
Amanda: No, we have stats. It's getting worse. There are a lot more hate groups. There are a lot more events tied to hate. I mean, and this makes us all less safe. This makes our democracy less safe. Like the extremism is really to me, front and mind for a lot of people. Cause we see it. We hear it, every day.
Rachel: Yeah. I'm telling you, this was something that people talked about when I did the tour and I talked to women. Extremism and choice were what people talked about most of all. And the extremism looked different in different communities, but it's still the same fundamental thing of othering people.
Amanda: And they have said that this is their strategy. So they have said absolutely on the record–
Rachel: Divide and conquer.
Amanda: Yes. Divide and conquer. They are the ones starting a culture war so that they can divide us and then do whatever the hell they want with all the power they just got.
Jasmine: Exactly. You separate everyone. It's a lot easier to go after small groups of five than it is to go after one big group of a hundred. So if I can separate y'all into 20 groups of 5, I can attack each of you individually a lot easier when technically all 100 of you have something in common and that's that you're all being attacked by me.
Rachel: Yep. Yep. No, you're exactly right. Well, on that note I think we need to go to our panel discussion. The women on our panel are so smart and so knowledgeable, and I can't wait to share our conversation with you. That discussion is coming up after the break.
BREAK
Rachel: Hi everyone. This is Rachel Vindman, and I'm joined today by three experts in extremism.
Antisemitism, and racism and misogyny have always been issues in this country and across the world, but it seems like lately extremist groups have been more organized and more empowered. They're recruiting young people, especially young men, on the internet. Groups like The Oathkeepers and the Proud Boys helped organize the insurrection On January 6th and just this month, we saw antisemitic tweets from Kanye West and a message from Trump claiming that American Jews are “ungrateful” and they need to “get their act together before it's too late.” To which I would say I really think that we have our act together much more than the former president.
But in both cases, there was a surprising lack of outrage from Republicans. Or maybe it's not surprising. Maybe… maybe that's exactly what we should have expected. So before we get to the midterm elections, I really wanted to sit down with some experts in extremism to learn more about what's happening. And more importantly, what we talk about all the time on this podcast, is what we can help do to stop it.
So I'm gonna have my guests introduce themselves, I think that's the easiest way to do it. And Amy, can we start with you? Just tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do.
Amy Spitalnick: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I'm Amy Spitalnick, I'm the executive director of a nonprofit called Integrity First for America, where we sued the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists responsible for the Charlottesville violence. And I also serve as a Senior Advisor on extremism to Human Rights First and a number of other organizations working to protect our democracy.
Rachel: Wonderful. And Shannon?
Shannon Foley Martinez: I'm Shannon Foley Martinez. I work with people who are leaving and exiting dehumanizing hate and violence based worldviews. My passion is working in the area of prevention with students and families, caregivers and community organizations. And my work is based on the five years that I spent as a white power neo-Nazi from the age of 15 until almost 20. So I have been engaged in this work for, at this, at this point almost 30 years.
Rachel: Wow. Can't wait to ask you some questions. And Samantha, welcome back to the podcast. Can you introduce yourself again and tell us about your work?
Samantha Kutner: Sure. My name is Samantha Kutner. I'm a subject matter expert on The Proud Boys, or more colloquially “The Proud Boys Whisperer.” I started the Proud Boys Incident Tracking Map in 2018, which I'm now happy to do as part of The Proud Boys Project with Khalifa Ihler Institute. And I am the co-founder of Glitter Pill llc, which seeks to enhance collaboration across sectors to do things like balancing care and accountability.
Rachel: Wonderful. Well, thank you all for being here. We're just gonna jump right in and start with the rising tide of antisemitism. Obviously antisemitism has been an issue for a very long time, but it does seem like there is an increase lately. But does it just seem like that? What do you think is going on? Why do you think Jewish people are so often the scapegoat and, if you think it's getting worse, why do you think it's getting worse now?
Amy: There always needs to be some motivating force behind everything bad that happens in the world, whether it be a bad economy, whether it be– from a white supremacist perspective– the rise of power among Black people, people of color, immigrants, refugees. And throughout history, that force has almost always been the Jews when it comes to any good conspiracy theory. If you go back centuries, some of the very same tropes that we've heard in the last few weeks from President Trump, from Kanye West, are are part of that history of antisemitism. So there's nothing new under the sun really when it comes to antisemitism.
What we're seeing in this specific moment is the weaponization of antisemitism by political leaders and other pundits and public figures. That goes hand in hand with the broader moment of extremism and anti democratic activity that we're witnessing. And so whether it is looking for a scapegoat for the immigrants, asylum seekers, and others who are coming to this country in hopes of a better life, whether it is trying to put the blame for economic factors on someone, or whether it is looking for someone to point the finger at who's responsible for the LGBTQ community having rights that they now have that they didn't have, or having a more public role than perhaps they once had, the Jews have always been that scapegoat. And it's no surprise that they're that again.
And so it's, it seems like we're feeling we're dealing with another high profile example of antisemitism nearly every week because we actually are. And it is impossible to separate it from the broader rise in racist, transphobic, white supremacist, xenophobic, and other extremist activity that we've been witnessing in this moment.
Shannon: One of the things that I've come to understand, because people will ask me often, I do a lot of work for many Jewish organizations, and so often they're just like, “Well, why the Jews? Why is all of this hate directed upon us?” And I think one of the things that is at play there is that no matter what has happened, the diasporas, the intentional murders of Jews, that they have continued, no matter where they have gone, to have a strong sense of identity. To continue with a sense of collective importance and purpose and meaning in their lives.
And I think for people who end up being drawn to dehumanizing, hate-filled violent worldviews, that that's something that they seek. That is a very broken need in their own lives that they don't have. And looking at how the Jews have a very strong collective identity despite all of the hardship that has, you know, been millennia, it becomes very easy to just be like, “Oh, well, it's their fault. I need someone to blame for why I don't feel like I'm thriving or why my future feels really hopeless.” And it's this very easy to hold onto group of others who are to blame for everything that's happening.
Samantha: I'd like to add to that cause it is not new, but the gender dynamics of radicalization online are fairly new. So the concept of getting red pilled like Neo in The Matrix, opening his eyes to this new reality when in fact these men are opening their eyes to this delusion of male subjugation by women under feminism.
That's only one version of the red pill though. You can get “pilled” into believing that the Jews control everything, but that really is intertwined with racism because the moment you see Black and brown bodies as an existential threat, you're just completely at odds with a multicultural society.
But the other antisemitic component of that is that Jews have assisted with immigration in the past because that's kind of like… we were immigrants, and we can relate to that. That's just a human thing that we do. But the conspiracy is that we are part of a global cabal that is trying to change racial demographics in the country in order to emasculate the white male. So now it's like a defense of both your skin color and your manhood.
Shannon: I think it is very worthwhile to look at antisemitic violence as a canary in the coal mine to let us know where we're at in terms of what is to come in terms of violence towards other marginalized communities. I think recent statistics came out that we are, that we're at maybe an all time high, definitely a high, in terms of antisemitic violence within the past 10 years.
And I think one of the things that we have to challenge ourselves to look at is the impact that Covid is going to have on us. That it is my very firm belief that Covid is going to be looked back upon as an event horizon unless we act with purpose and intentionally in order to deal with everything that Covid has done to us in terms of our sense of stability and safety. That we will look back on this time as something that has brought forth a level of unrest that we have not seen in America in a, in a very long time.
Rachel: You know, I wanna ask all of you about this idea… It just is preposterous to me, I hate to talk about it cause I think it's so ridiculous. I can't believe anyone believes it. But this idea of the Great Replacement Theory, what is the genesis of that theory? Is it just a rallying cry or is it something they really believe?
Shannon: It is definitely something that people who are immersed in white supremacists hate groups genuinely believe. The basic, you know, conspiracy theory is that white people, predominantly in America, are going to be replaced by non-whites. And that this is happening imminently, so that this is happening like within, within our lifetimes. The essential idea is that the racial purity, whatever that means, of the white race is going to be diluted and that there will be essentially this very small minority of white people left.
Rachel: Amy, what do you have to say about the Great Replacement Theory and, and maybe if you could speak about how that played into the actions in Charlottesville?
Amy: Absolutely. The tropes that are inherent within the Great Replacement Theory are as old as time at this point. They have always been part of the white supremacist movement in this country, and frankly, around the world.
What's new is how this conspiracy theory in the last five or so years has directly fueled vile, violent, deadly attacks that have targeted so many communities from the Jewish community: we’re coming up on the anniversary of the Pittsburgh attack, which was the deadliest attack on the American Jewish community in history, of course Charlottesville, the El Paso attack, the Buffalo attack just earlier this year. And also, frankly, around the world– the Christ Church attack attacking Muslims in New Zealand a few years ago was also fueled by the same conspiracy theory.
And so when we heard neo-Nazis chanting “Jews will not replace us” on the University of Virginia grounds five years ago in Charlottesville, it was baffling to many people. They didn't understand why a rally that was supposedly about the removal of a Confederate monument was talking about Jews replacing us. But what has become very clear in the last five years is that that conspiracy theory has gone from the fringes of these extremist movements to the mainstream of our political rhetoric. And so of course, it's fueled these horrific, deadly attacks, but we're also seeing it really seep into the mainstream, from Tucker Carlson on Fox News every single night to candidates who are using a slightly diluted version of this, talking about voter replacement. This idea of diluting the white Christian male population goes hand in hand with this idea. Voter replacement of the demographics being intentionally changed by some force, which again, typically tend to be the Jews or you'll hear terms like a cabal or globalist or other synonyms used. And it's intended to, of course, change the demographics of our country in a way that changes the voting base that in turn changes our politics.
And that's what, of course, leads to Democrats being elected. There's no other reason why Democrats might be elected other than some great conspiracy involving Jews and Black people and immigrants and refugees and so on. And so it's, it's all the more dangerous, frankly. It's, it's, in some ways it's more dangerous when it's in this insidious, diluted form that you're hearing from Republican politicians.
Rachel: No, absolutely. Yes. Yes. The diluted version that's more appropriate for television or appropriate to, you know, discuss in public is so frightening to me.
And, you know, Shannon, I have to ask you just point blank, what was it that attracted you to this? You know, I mean it, as you said, you've been 30 years since you've been part of a group like this, but how this happen?
Shannon: So this is not only just true about my story, but also from the stories of the people who I have mentored who have left. You know, that in my family, even though from the outside everything looked great, on the inside there were just multiple layers of trauma, adverse childhood experiences that were there.
So I have all that going on. I end up being sexually assaulted by two men when I was 14 years old. I needed a place where I didn't need to be any good. To belong where I could show up in the body I was born in, that felt like garbage. Like I felt so worthless. I felt like my body was trash, and the main way that I was expressing that was through rage. Like I wanted to hurt myself, which I did, and everyone in everything I came in contact with.
And on the periphery of the punk rock scene where I was hanging out were these people who were incredibly violent and that all I had to do was show up and me being in the body that I was in was enough, and my propensity for aggression at that point in my life was seen as an immense asset. I see it as like, you have people that have vulnerabilities, and we know this from adverse childhood experience research and trauma research and stuff, that that opens the door for all kinds of less than optimal outcomes.
But this journey is like this accident of timing and geography. What does a vulnerable person, at a very vulnerable point in their life, what did they collide with? For me, it was very unlikely that this would happen cause it had to happen in a physical space. I had to meet another human being, have a physical copy of a book or a record put in my hand to like, to start learning about this.
And now, when I go talk to students and I ask them about like what they're doing online and where they hang out and everything, and then I ask them, even like middle school students, like who's seen antisemitic or racist comments or content online, and a hundred percent of the hands go up. So the likelihood that our children will collide with antisemitic or racist comments, content or communities online is just, to me it's a certainty. It's not an if, it's a when. And am I preparing my children for what to do?
And at the same time some of the messaging of, particularly of like, accelerationist violence and things like that, is just so prolific right now, is that they also capitalize not just on a sense of personal worthlessness and struggling for identity and a sense of belonging, but also on a sense of hopelessness. And for these communities, your hopelessness is actually an asset to the ends that they want to bring, which are incredibly, incredibly violent.
Samantha: As someone who has interviewed Black and brown and Jewish Proud Boys and Proud Boys girls, it's important to think about what's happening now as a proximity to power more than anything else. Like approximating whiteness is like trying to get closer and closer to power. And the closer and closer you get to power, the more available you are to dehumanize people, even if they're of your own culture.
So when you think about figures like Kanye West saying all of these things, if I were to talk to him one to one, I would talk to him the way I talk to Enrique Tario. I've interviewed him for years and I won't ever share our interviews cause I don't wanna platform him any further. But I've told him before, “you realize when the fascist circle closes, you and I won't be in it, right?”
And I think one thing that's really important, which I really appreciate about this podcast and other women in the field banding together. You know, what we're hopefully doing is realizing that we're much stronger together than when we're fighting each other in the service of nothing. Cause that really benefits the people who want to remain in power. And harms everyone in their pursuit of either gaining power or staying in power.
Amy: To that point, I think it really is important to understand how inextricably linked what we're talking about here, these conspiracy theories, this extremism, this hate is with the broader rise of far right extremist policies that we're witnessing in the country. And so, you know, when you talk about the Great Replacement Theory and the tropes that underpin it, this idea of the white race being replaced, obviously when it comes to immigration and out-breeding white people and caravans coming up from the southern border, it's clear.
But the abortion fight that we're having right now, it's really the manifestation of a years decades long crusade by white Christian nationalists against reproductive rights in this country. And of course, ties directly to this idea of the white birthright, as I believe someone mentioned earlier. You hear it in the attacks in the LGBTQ community in terms of the impact LGBTQ rights has on birth rights, which a number of people, including far right politicians, have specifically referenced in the last few months. In the groomer language targeting the trans community. You hear it when it comes to attacks, of course, on women's rights and interracial marriage, and you hear it in the broader effort focused on election denial and “stopping the steal” and the ways in which, particularly the election deny denial movement has merged and become inextricably linked by the xenophobic nativist movement.
And so it's really important to understand how this sort of hate and extremism underpins not just these specific acts of hate that are flashpoints and that we all know are unacceptable, when you look back at Buffalo or Charlottesville or Pittsburgh, but also underpins the very policies and political rhetoric that is happening in communities around this country and is directly threatening so many of us in a way that community that we haven’t seen in decades.
Shannon: I just the other day watched a recruiting video for a very violent accelerationist network, and I was very struck by this interlap between mainstream politics and what was considered, like, fringe. Cause their video included things… like they were talking about their so-called “saints.” And they included things like the murder of police. They included things like anti-abortion terrorism. They included things like election interference violence and things like that.
And it was like, it was so stark to me. I was like, “Wow, this is new.” That it's not just that the mainstream is adopting more of the extremists– up to this point, extremist– points of view, but the extremists are also seeing that happen and that they are incorporating what the mainstream is talking about. So that, to me, is very incredibly alarming. Because the goal is violence in and of itself, it's not even necessarily ideological, it's just to be violent and break down Western civilization.
Samantha: As the co-founder of Glitter Pill llc, we try to tie things as close to behavioral data as possible. Not just the incidents themselves, but content that inspires them to act. So people were laughing about the “okay groomer” themes and everything in January 2020, and thinking how curious that was, or you know, it was just this spectacle that people were feeding on. And now there are bomb threats to hospitals that provide gender affirming care.
Rachel: But how do you, I mean, just to stay in front of it seems impossible.
Samantha: The way to stay on top of emerging threats is to properly support the people who are taking the burden upon themselves to monitor and examine these networks.
Rachel: What's so hard for me is that, you know, when we talk about policies and we talk about the need to support this, we have people running who either agree or certainly co-op the ideas in order to get elected. You know, looking at you, Lauren Boebert, I'm looking at you, Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean that they specifically cite these things. And so Amy, how, how do we kind of overcome that to counter it in a meaningful way when these are elected officials?
Amy: Yeah. Well I think one, I wanna underscore what Samantha was saying, which is that we need to treat this with the urgency that it deserves.
Rachel: And the government is pretty bad at that. I mean, I think they're very slow on the uptake, like all the time.
Amy: Yeah. I mean, five years ago when we first filed this lawsuit against the Charlottesville Nazis, people were very skeptical of the idea of holding them accountable. And now, five years later, we've won this case and it's emerged as a model for how you do this. We've seen a ton of cases brought against the Proud Boys, the Oathkeepers, Patriot Front just yesterday by the Lawyers Committee and a variety of others. And that's great. And, and we're so heartened to see that, but it shouldn't be such a fight in the first place to get the government to take it seriously.
Rachel: Yeah, because they just think it's gonna go away. It's not gonna go away. It's not gonna go away. It's never gonna be 1998 again. Nothing is ever going to go back to what you thought was normal, and no one thought it was normal at the time, I suspect. This is our fight. It will be our fight for a long time, so we need to get that out of our heads. We need to join the fight and work hard, but more than that, our government needs to get on board and say, “What are we going to do as a country to work on saving democracy?” And if that plan is just to wait till they go away, then we're gonna give it to them.
Amy: That's absolutely right. And we've started to see, right, the White House has started to begin to focus on this.
Rachel: Yeah.
Amy: They held a summit in September, I was very grateful to be a part of it, United We Stand, focused on combating extremism. But a summit can't be the end point. It needs to be the start point. And they announced a number of policies there, including a number of sort of public health prevention driven policies, which a number of advocates had been calling for programs aimed at directing people away from extremism rather than sending them down the online rabbit holes.
But these are all just first steps. State and local governments have so much of an ability to act when it comes to not just hate crimes, but when it comes to using their bully pulpit. Even this week, the New York AG and the Governor released a report on the ways in which the Buffalo shooter was radicalized online and the trends that it specifically is reflective of.
And there's so much more that our state and local governments can be doing here as well. And I think we need to step back and recognize the ways in which this underpins everything at this moment. This is, it's not an issue of extremism, it's not an issue of democracy. Everything to us. It's not just motivating these dehumanizing policies that we talked about and horrific, hateful rhetoric, but it really puts everything that this country is meant to be about at risk.
And so to see it in that holistic way also underscores why we need a whole of society approach to fight it. And it means that we need our leaders, our politicians, and our other officials recognizing that this is at the core of everything right now, and specifically the ways in which Republican and far right politicians have not just co-opted these conspiracy theories and used them to build their stature in this moment, but also the ways in which extremists in turn see that as a validation as really the manifestation of their greatest hope, which is what the Daily Stormer said just the other day about Trump's antisemitic comments. The ways in which they see Tucker Carlson and all of these elected officials really giving voice and personifying what they've hoped for all along.
And so it's important to understand that dynamic because the only way we break that dynamic is to understand it. There really needs to be a whole of society approach to this crisis because it is a crisis that really cuts to the core of our society and our politics in every possible way.
Rachel: So with that, I guess I'll just ask you, you know, a final question. What can we do? If you could say two things that you know we could most do right now, and you can talk to parents, you can talk to politicians, policy makers. What do you think are the two most important things that we can do?
Amy: I think understanding the goal of this all is to make us feel helpless and powerless. That's the goal of authoritarianism, of fascism, of white supremacy, of extremism. And so first and foremost, we can't let them. And you know, the election is a few weeks away, so certainly vote.
There's a lot that people can do, including measures that caregivers, parents, teachers, schools can take. I know Shannon has thoughts on this as well. There's a number of great handbooks from organizations like the Western State Center, SPLC, that provide concrete steps parents and other caregivers can take if you believe that your kid might be going down the rabbit hole of extremism.
I think it also requires us to step back and think about the structural ways, the structural changes we can make to protect our democracy. Conversations about the filibuster, about the Supreme Court, right? When you look at the way these tools are used to perpetuate that sort of extremism and white supremacy that we're talking about here– for example, the abortion debate happening right now– it's important to recognize we need to look at institutional solutions to an institutional problem.
So there's a lot that we can do both as individuals with our own families and our own communities and as advocates and activists in terms of not just voting, in terms of not just calling out this extremist rhetoric when we see it from our local politicians on our school boards and in other forums, but also in advocating for these broader structural changes that are gonna be crucial to moving us away from this anti-democratic moment.
Rachel: And Samantha?
Samantha: I mean, this is for the broader intelligence community and activists. Don't take ownership of institutional failures by romanticizing martyrdom. And remember your capacity for joy and novelty, because that's part of the fight too. That's what they seek to rob you of. And when you can experience joy and connection and love and community and support and meaning, they lose. And it's not about them losing. You invite them into a world where that could be possible for them too.
Shannon: The antidote to hate isn't love, it is connection. One of the most powerful things that I believe we can do is to actively get to know our neighbors. Build strong, robust communities. It is very easy to hate an idea or an idea of a person. It is very difficult when you have a connection with someone to hate them.
And so if you are working really hard on a very local level, go talk to your neighbors, get to know them. Have your kids involved in your neighborhood, in your very local support systems communities. Get to know your unhoused people. Ask them what their needs are. The community activists that are local in your area, help provide food, shelter, clothing. Like we are all very challenged right now, but we become incredibly strong if we are working together on this very, you know, very like person to person level.
And then I think the second thing is to seek out and listen to and read and pay for where appropriate input from activists in marginalized communities. Go find books, articles, Instagram accounts, TikTok accounts. Listen to marginalized people telling you what they need. And then do that and do your internal work of grappling with, you know, for me, I know that I have lifelong work. I don't have any, any more overt racism within me, but I will always be a white person within the system that we live in. And so I have a lifelong journey of confronting that and dismantling that within myself and confronting that wherever I go. And this acceptance that that's just what we have to do if we genuinely, truly wanna live in a just and equitable society. And just commit to that work and do that humbly and even mess up a lot. Because we're always learning.
Rachel: Yes. That is so, so good, Shannon. I love the part about talking to your neighbors and I also love about you gotta listen to people. You know, we don't have it right and we're not gonna have it right if we sit around talking amongst ourselves about how to make it right. If we wanna do better, we need to talk to the people for whom we wanna be allies.
So thank you all so much for joining us on this. It is, I think, really an umbrella topic that hits on so many of the things that we talk to women about on this podcast. So many things that are important to them really fall under the umbrella of extremism. So we're going to be talking about it for a long time, but I think it's always good to give our listeners an idea of what we can do to counter it and, you know, also what to be aware of and just to keep a heads up for it in their own lives and their own communities. So thank you so much for joining us. I hope we get to talk to all three of you again as we, you know, continue to dive deeper into the subject. Thank you.
Amy: Thank you so much for having us.
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Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I so appreciated hearing this panel discussion and this has been top of mind for us lately, and it's really about this extremism becoming mainstream. And we are getting desensitized to it and kind of used to it in a way that is just really tragic.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, the sign hanging off the 405 bridge in LA…
Jasmine: Oh my gosh.
Rachel: That there wasn't just complete outrage really shows me that it has been… we are definitely desensitized to it, there's no doubt.
Jasmine: When I saw it, that's what I was thinking. You know, back in the day people used to be, like, closeted racists. The Klan wore hoods for a reason. Because they still wanted to be able to move through society without being some type of pariah.
So to go from that to what we have now where extremism, again, it's not just like these fringes, it's actually become mainstream. It's actually people's platforms.
Rachel: Yeah.
Jasmine: Marjorie Taylor Green runs on a platform of extremism in Georgia. You know, there are secretaries of state running on a platform of “I will not certify an election if I don't like the results.” That is where we are now.
Rachel: But if we add us all up, we are more. We are not 20 groups of 5. We are a group of 100. And they are nowhere near that. We just have to vote and make sure other people vote.
Jasmine: Right.
Amanda: And having those conversations is how we realize that we have more in common than we are different.
Jasmine: Absolutely.
Rachel: Okay. We need to do the Toast to Joy because I have one of my best Toast to Joys ever this week.
Amanda: Oh, I'm excited. All right. Wait, Rachel, I think you're last.
Rachel: Yeah.
Amanda: Jasmine, I think you need to start us off. What's your Toast to Joy?
Jasmine: All right, so my Toast to Joy actually is a little bit of a roller coaster. We started out the first day of early voting with really good numbers and I was like, “Yes, we're doing great!” And then the middle of the week it kind of dipped down to just under 50% and I was freaking out and I was like, “Oh no, this is not what we wanna see.” And just for context I am running in the most competitive race for State House in the state of Georgia.
And so, you know it went from like above 50% to just under 50%. But I didn't panic, I just activated my networks and I said, “Y'all listen, we really have to get out the vote.” And so over the weekend, the numbers shifted back and even though less people showed up on the weekend, which is actually weird, more of the people that did show up leaned Democratic.
So, you know, I'm doing everything that I can and we got two weeks. This is like the, if you run track or run in any race, this is like where you can see the finish line and you're really tired, but you're like, “the faster I run to the finish line, the faster this will be over, but I will not stop because the finish line is right there.” This is my all out sprint to the finish line right now.
And so I think things are going really good. I’m getting great reception when I sign wave, a couple of people flicked me off, but I get more thumbs up, smiles and waves than people putting their middle finger up.
Amanda: People are flipping you off? What is wrong with us?
Rachel: Just like, just look the other way! Or you could also just wave to be nice cause it's the neighborly thing to do.
I just wanna say though about Jasmine, from the outside looking in and from Northern Virginia looking at Georgia… you know, I'm just so impressed with the amount of effort that you are putting into this. I just wanna say thank you and I hope everyone really understands that the people who are running… there are a lot of people who are doing it for the right reasons. And you know, honestly, I think Alex said this to the Speaker the other night. We have such good candidates on our side.
Jasmine: Yes.
Rachel: And she was like, “Yes, we do! We have the best candidates.”
Amanda: Yes! But it reminds me our political system is not necessarily a meritocracy.
Rachel: It only works if you vote.
Amanda: Yep.
Jasmine: All right. So Amanda, what's your Toast to Joy this week?
Amanda: So my Toast to Joy is I got to go to Michigan, so my whole family on both sides is from Michigan, and we got to go to a wedding. So I would like to have a big congratulations to Sage and Maddie. I am so thankful that we got to be there and that my kids got to be there. It was a fabulous wedding. They had little gift packs for my kids when they got to their seats at their table and my kids were like, “aww.” Like, the thought that they put into that of having something special for each one of them at their wedding was just above and beyond. It was amazing. And I love that my kids were there to celebrate with Sage and Maddie and to see that love is love and it was such an important lesson my kids got to see.
Jasmine: Oh, I love that. All right, Rachel, your turn.
Rachel: So last week I wrote an OpEd that was in USA Today, and I posted little clips of it, you know, whatever, like in a Tweet thread. And then on one of them, someone responded and I saw it and I was on the train to New York and she was like, “I wanna get involved, but I don't know what to do.” And I looked at her profile and I saw she was in Michigan. And I thought, perfect! Red Wine and Blue is in Michigan!
So I sent her a DM. She emailed me and I put her in connection with the wonderful Julie who is in charge of all of our volunteers and organizers. And then I got this email, I got this email on Friday. This email not only made my day, but it made my week because this is why we and everyone at Red Wine and Blue does what they do.
This is what she wrote. “I just wanna say a huge thank you to you and your team for connecting with me so quickly. I looked at the pictures Lori posted from the evening, and my face literally looked the happiest it's looked in pictures since before the pandemic started. The world out there hasn't changed, but the sense that I have people I can navigate this brave new world with is already making a huge difference in my life.”
Jasmine: Oh my gosh, I love that.
Rachel: Not only did she find fellowship, she found a way to make a difference. And that's what so many people of us are trying to do, is to make a difference, to find something that we can meaningfully contribute.
Jasmine: I love the joy. I feel like a lot of people have lost their joy and they don't even realize it. You know, you're like just going through life and then all of a sudden you do something that you actually truly enjoy or something that actually truly makes you feel good from the inside, and then you see a picture of yourself and you're like, “That's me! That's who I used to be, and I lost that. I didn't realize I lost her until I saw her again.” And so I love the empowerment. I love the joy. That's, that's awesome. I love that. I love that, Rachel.
Rachel: We wanna be on a team too! We just don't wanna dress up like American flags and…
Amanda: Overthrow the government?
Rachel: Yes! Like, we wanna have a team, but just like a normal team.
Amanda: Haha, it’s true.
Rachel: So with that, this week we have another voting tip for you. Our voting tip is to track your ballot. If you vote absentee or by mail, you can track your ballot by going to vote.org/ballot-tracker-tools. We'll also put that link in the show notes and you can Google it as well.
Thank you so much to everyone for joining us today. We'll see you again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.