Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening, I'm Rachel Vindman.
Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.
Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein.
Rachel Vindman: And this is the Suburban Women Problem. Thank you for joining us! Today we are going to chat with retired United States Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman about his book, “Here Right Matters,” and his decision to testify against Donald Trump in the first impeachment hearing. Also, spoiler alert, he is my husband!
Alex will join our panel here in a little bit to talk about his experience. Then after that, we're going to sit down one-on-one to discuss everything from how the events of the past few years impacted our relationship to who we think should play each other in a movie version of our life. It was a new experience for both of us. So, make sure you stick around.
But before we get to Alex, we could not have a discussion about why right matters without talking about last week's January 6th commission hearings, and the incredibly brave officers who have spoken up. For those of you who did not get a chance to watch, four brave officers gave gripping testimony about their experiences on January 6th, 2021. They talked about being overrun, assaulted, and screamed at by rioters, branded as traitors. The officers were extremely vulnerable and emotional as they shared their stories. I just want to say, if you haven't seen their opening testimonies, you can watch the full video on CSPAN. And it is certainly worth your time. It's hard to watch, but you should watch. Jasmine, did you get a chance to watch?
Jasmine Clark: So, I didn't get a chance to actually watch it in real time. I have though seen some of the clips of some of the testimony. It's heartbreaking to me to see our democracy really under attack this way. And I think even more so it's heartbreaking to me that—and I could be wrong—it just feels like the perpetrators of these crimes are in the least probably going to get a slap on the wrist. And at most, some of them might actually get away with it and nothing will happen to them and that's scary to me. It really does scare me.
Amanda Weinstein: I can't help but think about Benghazi, right? And how different the GOP is reacting to the January 6th commission compared to the Benghazi committee. And the GOP wanted a public hearing on Benghazi supposedly to get to the bottom of it and to ensure whatever happened, whatever mistakes, you know, were made, didn't happen again. Now suddenly, they don't want to get to the bottom of it and they aren’t interested in making sure it doesn't happen again.
That is really scary because we're not holding people accountable or maybe not as accountable as they should be held. This was on US soil, right? This was our country. This was our people. These were our Capitol police officers. I just can't believe… like Benghazi just keeps popping in my mind as like, look at how different this is.
Even scarier, as scary as it was to watch it when it was happening. Like reading about what actually happened from the people that were there and hearing about it from the Capitol police officers… it was even scarier than I thought. And reading about, you know, Connie Schultz’s article about not knowing if her husband was alive or dead or what was going on at that time. I cannot even imagine what that was like, if you had a loved one inside that building and just not knowing.
But the truth is the that the GOP isn't interested in getting to the bottom of it. Right? They really aren't. This is all about political, you know, attacks and that's what Benghazi was, right? It was a way for them to throw mud on Hillary Clinton. And that's how they view this too. Right? This is just, they are not into it because it's going to make them look bad, which is the most telling thing of all. They're not into the January 6th commission because it's going to make the GOP look bad.
Rachel Vindman: I just, I have no words. I mean, not only is this someone's account of it, but we actually have like video evidence. It's the same as watching George Floyd and the knee on his neck, and then saying that didn't happen, that that didn't kill him. Like, I saw it with my own eyes! Why are you telling me this didn't happen?
Amanda Weinstein: And we knew it was coming right? They said, for how long the President was saying you should come down here. You should come down here and stop this. We knew it was coming and it came. It's just ridiculous.
Rachel Vindman: Right. I mean, I, you know, I, we all have so many emotions tied to January 6th, then, you know, how, how we processed it. So then, you know, six months later to revisit it and, you know, with a little more perspective and, you know, to see how things have continued to develop and change. You know, I think about how Amy Siskind talks about this, and she talked about it when, when we had on the podcast, about how we thought there would be you know, this sea change and everything would be normal after President Biden was inaugurated. And really, it's as if the fight was just getting started.
Then, you know, and as a mom, accountability is something we deal with all the time. Until there is accountability, until we start seeing some actual sentences that are meaningful and there's some deterrent, there is no reason why these people will not try something like this again. And I firmly believe after watching on Wednesday, those officers literally saved our democracy.
Jasmine Clark: Yeah. The alternative to what could have happened on January 6th is absolutely horrifying. And we were just a couple of brave officers making some very tactical and strategic moves away from absolute tragedy. This denial again, it's like this mass gaslighting of the American people, like you said, Rachel. We saw it with our own eyes. Now we're hearing it with our own ears. And yet you're going to tell us that what we saw, the new videos that are coming out, all of that is just fantasy. And what really happened is nothing. There's nothing to see here.
I think that's the part that's bothering me. The most… nothing is happening, not just to the perpetrators, but the people who are kind of indirectly party to this crime by trying to sweep it under the rug as if it didn't happen.
Amanda Weinstein: I've heard some of the people who have been charged kind of saying like, well, some of them have completely gone back on Trump saying “this was Trump's fault. He told me to do it. I was following what he said.” But at the same time, I'm like, look, where’s your accountability?
You know, Rachel, I love the talking about being a mom. Like when my kids come to me and it's, you know, “oh, you know, so-and-so hit so-and-so,” and “this happened” my question to who's ever coming to me to tell on the other person… “What was your role? What was your role in this?” Right? There has to be accountability for the people that were involved.
Rachel Vindman: Another thing that I really want to talk about in the hearings, and you guys have probably seen clips, you've probably seen… this was all four officers who testified, talked about the mental health component of what happened. Just think about how hard it was to hear them give an account, how much more difficult it was to actually live that experience. And I thought it was so good for everyone to see that.
But they were attacked by the right. Laura Ingram, Tucker Carlson, Jesse Watters (though I have no idea who he is). But I made a comment on a tweet, on someone else's tweet. I have never, ever on Twitter received so many vile comments as I did when said, and I think my comment was something to the extent of “When you don't deal with traumas and abuses, it manifests itself as anger and bitterness.” And I think that's exactly what we're seeing. Not just on January 6th. We're seeing in our country in so many ways and COVID, and the lockdowns has brought this to the forefront.
We talk about mental health a lot. Somehow in this movement, this MAGA movement, they see a real… identity or hear themselves, or I don't know. What do you guys think? Am I making sense? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I don't, I can't quite articulate it, but there's something there and if you call them on it, they lose their mind.
Amanda Weinstein: I think you're absolutely right. I also think about what's going on with kind of our society, right? So, when I hear about mental health issues, I don't just think, well, this person needs to take a mental health day and they may be need to go and work on some me time. I'm thinking, “How are we not supporting these people? What are we not doing as a society? What safety net is not there that should be there?”
Jasmine Clark: Yeah. I think mental health is like a buzz phrase right now that people use, especially politicians use to say, “Hey, I'm on your side. I get you.” But they don't actually do anything about it. You know? Seeking mental health help is stigmatized. It still is. I mean, it's almost seen as a form of weakness. For those of us that are religious, it is seen as a lack of faith. And while I do believe in the power of prayer—I am a Christian, I believe in the power prayer—I also believe that people can also use tools. Like you said, we don't stigmatize if you can't see, right? And you decide to go to the optometrist and get glasses, no one is going to tell you that you don't have faith because you don't want to walk into a wall.
Amanda Weinstein: Absolutely. Yeah. So, like with Simone Biles, right? I saw like she is taking care of her mental health by stepping back. So, my first thought was, “What is that organization not doing to protect her mental health? What are we not doing?”
I've heard a lot of comments about how nasty people are about being in the Olympics. Like “I stayed up just to watch you lose.” Like, I don't know what people everyone is following, but you should unfollow people that are saying that. Like, that's ridiculous to hear that kind of stuff. When we have a complete lack of access to a whole lot of stuff other countries have. Childcare, paid leave, a whole host of stuff we don't have and yet, somehow, we are supposed to feel like it's our fault for struggling with the situation we've been put in. And same with the Capitol police officers. They should not have been put in that situation.
Rachel Vindman: No, I think that's, that's the whole issue of accountability. You know, we're talking last week and this week about Simone Biles. But are we talking about Larry Nassar and what he did because we should continue to be speaking about what he did. Yes, he's in prison. But that the real problem here was the accountability of USA Gymnastics and how this was allowed to go on for so long.
So, on that issue of accountability, I think we're going to bring in our everyday woman. Lieutenant Colonel (Retired) Alexander Vindman to discuss the issue of accountability with us. Hello, Alex, welcome to the pod. This has to be your most important interview this week, right?
LTC (Retired) Alex Vindman: It is definitely the most important one. if I don't get this one right, there are much more severe consequences than, you know, not selling a couple extra books.
Amanda Weinstein: Oh, my husband is very jealous that you're going to get to be on the pod, and also that I get to talk to you.
Alex Vindman: That's, that's very kind of you to say, I think this whole idea of being able to do something with your spouse is lots of fun. And I'm looking forward to what the end result is, but I encourage it. I don't know, I like it.
Jasmine Clark: Yeah, I'm really excited to hear from you as well. Now you've got a book that just came out. So, you know, this is this is exciting. It's really nice to have you on the pod with us. If you don't mind, I would love to just jump right in and just ask you about, you know, just what happened. Can you give us a brief overview of exactly what happened on that fateful day?
Alex Vindman: Sure. So, my job was basically to manage national security issues between the United States and a bunch of European allies. And adversaries, I had Russia in my portfolio. And on this fateful day, there were all sorts of issues that were cropping up, like abnormalities, things that just were not right. So, this was going on for the preceding months. And then on January 25th, 2019, it all came together with the biggest used car salesman of all, Donald Trump.
It turns out that he was involved in this effort to really subvert the way our democracy is supposed to work. We have elections, you know, it's a hard-fought fight, sometimes it's dirty, but what doesn't happen is you don't tip the scales by coming up with false information, or bringing in another country in this case to provide false information against Joe Biden.
And there's more to it. I mean, there's like a financial component, he was basically hanging onto some $400 million that congress said needed to go to Ukraine. And that's, that's what I heard. And I knew immediately was it was wrong. And I knew what I had to do, which was basically report it.
It may have ended there but it didn't, and I was called on to testify in front of Congress. And I was not going to be careerist and seek to protect my career. I was going to go and do my duty and tell the truth about what happened.
Jasmine Clark: When you were sitting there and you were listening to the call, you weren't the only person sitting at that table. So that means that there were other people there that did not say anything about what they heard. Why do you think that they chose to be silent while you chose to do the right thing?
Alex Vindman: You know, it's interesting. On the National Security Council, you have a combination of, you know, political appointees and professional staff. And political appointees see as part of their mission to serve the needs of their political masters.
My role and duty was different. I swore an oath to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I took my obligation seriously, and if I backpedaled or whitewashed, or didn't give like the full kind of measure of truth, it would be a disservice to myself that would have to live with. Recognizing that, you know, I did something that was entirely self-serving something that protected me, but it didn't kind of satisfy the needs of the moment, you know.
It’s interesting, I now have a tagline. We have a, it's a family tagline, but you know it’s a, it's interesting, I guess, all that went in and came together on that very impromptu statement.
Rachel Vindman: Sorry, I want to ask you a question. Before we were talking about accountability, before you joined us, and it doesn't seem like we've had any accountability. And yet I know you are the eternal optimist and you are hopeful.
Alex Vindman: Right matters, but only if we make it matter. Which is what it comes down to. I think, you know, we can't, there's some wishful thinking that after President Biden was going to be elected, everything was just going to fall back into place. And until we get some accountability and some clarity on what happened and address the underlying issues, I don't see how we could get towards a unity.
Amanda Weinstein: So, I was thinking about the impetus to basically do what's right. And to be held accountable. So, I know for my husband, he doesn't often talk about his faith, but if you start pressing him on it, he will connect kind of how his faith is leading him to hold people accountable that we need to hold people accountable. And it actually drives him more than I think he thinks it does, once you start asking you about it. Rachel and I have talked about how we both have Jewish husbands. So how do you think your Judaism has affected, you know, what you did?
Alex Vindman: I think it's a part of my background and character. I remember we had this conversation with our Rabbi, and he said, “If not you, then who? If not now, then when?” That's something that I, you know, I had rolling around in my mind as these things were unfolding.
You know what it probably did is, you know… did it change my direction? No, this is where I was going. This is where I was going to go. But it did give me kind of like a little bit of a, a bigger context. You know, interestingly, Jewish values are not that dissimilar than any kind of other ethical values-based systems. But it's not the easiest thing for me to place, kind of like your husband, you know, where exactly they fit in. But it's almost like kind of like a, a frame or a foundation or something that you know. It’s there, but it's not quite clear the role it fills.
Jasmine Clark: Alex, I've been thinking about this, and after listening to you talk about it, some things really stand out to me. And that is that it seems like the good guys in this story are the ones that are suffering the most. Giuliani and Trump and Tim Morrison, like people like this, they have suffered very few consequences. On the other hand, you basically lost your career. And for me, it makes me angry. Like it infuriates me, this injustice. It's not, it's just not right. It's just not fair. So, like, how are you handling this injustice without seeing red and just being angry all the time?
Alex Vindman: I'll tell you Jasmine, that is a terrific question. I'm so thankful that you asked it. I'll start by saying first of all, before I even answer your question, I hope you take that anger, and you turn that to action. And that's, that's really what we, you know, what I think you ladies are doing as a service to this nation, is you're taking kind of anger or discontent at injustice, at wrong, and turning it into a potential action and activism. And that's essential.
But I guess in answering your question, I'd go back to, in a way, doing the right thing has to be its own reward. Because it does come with significant consequences. I mean, look, I could've played my cards like John Bolton or something of that nature. I could've cashed in immediately. And, you know, we could, I could have made our life a lot more comfortable. But that's not what I thought was right. It wasn't the right thing to do. And I'm just going to, I'll have to live with the consequences.
I have this kind of confidence that over the long run, things will work out. We'll get to where we want to be, where we need to be, but it's not going to be easier. I didn't take those shortcuts to get there. And unfortunately, in our country, those shortcuts are rewarded. But I guess I didn't, you know, that that's not the way I see things. Nothing really comes easy. You just have to keep working hard and, you know, doing what you do, taking the actions that you think you could live with. And that has to be, that's just going to have to be enough. Right?
Amanda Weinstein: I love that. There's real value in doing what's right,
Rachel Vindman: Alex, thank you for joining us for being our “everyday woman,” our first male “everyday woman.” It was a pleasure to speak with you. Everyone stick around and listen to our interview of each other.
Alex Vindman: Jasmine, Amanda and my dear Rachel, it was a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
Amanda Weinstein: Thank you, this was fun.
BREAK
Rachel Vindman: Alex welcome to the podcast. You have a lot of events coming up. I actually think people might be a little sick of hearing from you and what you have to say.
Alex Vindman: Yeah, don't turn on your TV.
Rachel Vindman: Yeah.
Alex Vindman: To any cable news outlet.
Rachel Vindman: All Alex, all the time.
Alex Vindman: Don't turn on your cable, TV or anything, frankly, for the next week or so otherwise you will see me. But I like the fact that you welcomed me to my own office, you know, to the podcast. That's kind of interesting.
Rachel Vindman: So, this book… it's been a project. Was the writing process what you thought it would be?
Alex Vindman: I didn't know what to expect, I guess. I've never written a book before. Yeah. It was a learning experience. I think, frankly, I'll take this as a learning experience and reflect on it afterwards to determine what is it that I want to keep? What is it that I want to prove? What is it I want to not do again?
Rachel Vindman: Yes. In what you in the army call an After-Action Review.
Alex Vindman: We’ve got three sustains, three improves. We'll schedule it.
Rachel Vindman: We do this with our own life. It’s so fun. We do it with, like, let's say a family vacation.
Alex Vindman: We start out with a decision matrix where you have like this, you know, you type in the parameters and that helps you make decisions, stuff like that. And then we do the AARS on the backend.
But it's not just the, the writing itself. Which is, you know, which is an interesting activity, but it's more than that. It's all the press and publicity and the self-promotion, all that is…
Rachel Vindman: You're learning something new, which is good for your brain. We recently read a book about that. So, tell our listeners why you decided to write Here Right Matters.
Alex Vindman: I decided to write this book because I thought it was a story worth sharing with the American public. It talks about my immigrant background, which a lot of people only know the, just the very kind of top lines of us coming here as a refugees. It talks about my pretty long career military service, with some really awesome experiences. It talks about our love, it talks about how we met, our courtship story and stuff like that. I like to use the word “courtship,” it's like old school. But it talks about that. And it talks about, you know, the, the public challenges that we faced.
And I wrote it in response to the many thousands of letters of support we received. I have every aspiration to respond to every single one of those letters, but this is an easier… it was easier to write a book to all those questions. But I thought this is a good way to speak to America and, you know, kind of re-introduce a form of an American story.
What's been your experience of me writing the book?
Rachel Vindman: Well, it was an interesting experience. It was interesting to see your perception of certain things. It was an interesting process and it’s been fun. I think it's, it's definitely been fun and I'm excited for your tour and for you to really, for the first time, get out there and explain things to people in your own voice.
Alex Vindman: Speaking of writing, you and I wrote my opening statement together.
Rachel Vindman: That was fun.
Alex Vindman: With some creative input from a couple of our friends. We called it the Suburban Women's Writers Guild. Do you remember how we approached that opening statement and what we should or should not have included?
Rachel Vindman: You know, that was an interesting project. I did not know where to start. I wanted to help you. You asked me to write down some ideas and I have two very talented— Carly and Lindsey—two very talented friends that happen to be writers. And I reached out to them to get their thoughts. And it was, it was fun, you know, just to get started and your attorneys took a couple turns on it, but I think it was…
Alex Vindman: I seem to remember, like basically I did a draft near-polished, and then we turned it over.
Rachel Vindman: This is why I need to write a book, just so I can tell my side of the story, because apparently there's a lot of creative liberties.
Alex Vindman: Then we improved it significantly. Don't get me wrong.
Rachel Vindman: We did. You know what I remember when I think about your opening statement, most of all, especially the first one is that… we were sitting in our daughter's room because there were workers downstairs finishing the kitchen, and we were huddled in her room, going over every line, every word to make sure that it was the right word choice.
Alex Vindman: Yeah.
Rachel Vindman: But when your statement was leaked, and I saw how it resonated with people. It was all worth it, and that's what I really wanted to do is get in front of those attacks and they came. Fast and furiously very quickly. That was like the first, I mean, within hours you are being attacked by Laura Ingraham and her band of merry…...
Alex Vindman: Trolls?
Rachel Vindman: Yes, that’s kind.
Alex Vindman: But that was the whole idea is to make sure that, you know, my voice was not corrupted by or filtered by either party for gain, but there was kind of high fidelity to what I was trying to communicate.
Rachel Vindman: I went from, you know, being a military spouse and a suburban mom to speaking out and being attacked by trolls all the time. Just like you. I know how I process it when you're attacked, but how do you process it when I'm attacked?
Alex Vindman: I want to reach through the device and strangle them.
Rachel Vindman: We probably shouldn't tell them that.
Alex Vindman: No, I want to reach through the device and strangle them. My visceral response is to go after them and crush them. And actually I mean, I would go so far as to challenge them to a duel. “Say that to my face.” But I guess that's not practical.
I will do, you know, I do the occasional trolling and response. But you and Ellie are the most precious parts of my life. And I want to protect you, and it's difficult to not be able to do that. I don't know I would like to kind of, I definitely want it to end, and you know, figure out a better way to help that end.
Rachel Vindman: It would be nice. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
Alex Vindman: Instead, we'll do some troll slaying. I want to know how you've been dealing with all of this… the attacks, the threats to safety.
Rachel Vindman: Everything the attacks and the trolls now are so much different. It affects me so much differently than it did at first. I mean, I always think the first time you go through something it's more difficult and then you realize, “oh, I did that. And it was survivable and it's okay.” I mean, not that I want to go through it again, but I can, the first time you attacked publicly, it's like a gut punch.
And I think of Marsha Blackburn's tweet. Actually, one of the most upset I was, she… I think she called you “the Vindictive Vindman” and said you were the whistleblower's handler. Neither of us are the whistleblowers handler, but I am certainly the Vindictive Vindman.
Alex Vindman: Yeah, you’re the Vindictive Vindman.
Rachel Vindman: Yes. A hundred percent.
Alex Vindman: I think it was hard that we weren't able to defend ourselves.
Rachel Vindman: That was the hardest thing. I had to go to the lawyers. It took them forever to write a statement. And then by that point, there was no point in responding.
Alex Vindman: At least now we’re untethered, and we control our own fate. And if we need to punch back, we do. If we want to dismiss them, which frankly we do most of the time. They're irrelevant.
Rachel Vindman: “Say it on the street. It's a knockout. You say it in a tweet—
Alex Vindman: —it’s a cop out.”
Rachel Vindman: Tried to get that in the second statement, the lawyer's cut it.
Alex Vindman: Unfortunate.
Rachel Vindman: So most couples, you know, won't ever go through what we've been through, and it certainly wasn't easy. What advice would you give to someone? I mean, your book doesn't really… it addresses a lot of things, but mental health and self-care wise, what advice do you give them?
Alex Vindman: Well, I think I tend to have a very positive attitude in general which is helpful. I think there's also something to be said about the warm embrace of your loving wife and your children and your dogs. That they're ointment to a wound.
Rachel Vindman: I mean or close friends.
Alex Vindman: Yeah. Close friends.
Rachel Vindman: People who know you, who know who you are when the world is telling you something else and they're saying things that are untrue. It's impossible not to hear it. It's also very difficult not to let it affect you. Because it's one thing if people are attacking your appearance or stupid things, but when people attack the essence of who you are, it's going to hurt.
Alex Vindman: What's been the toughest part of this whole thing for you?
Rachel Vindman: Seeing you attacked, seeing you misunderstood. You know, and hearing you called a traitor. When people call you a traitor, I realized that that was also an attack on me. Since we were married, I gave everything to serve alongside you as a military spouse. So, it felt like when they said you were a traitor, it felt like they were undermining my sort of life's work as well. Or certainly, you know, 15 years of it.
Alex Vindman: For me, it was seeing you upset. And then, you know, the fear that Ellie would somehow start to kind of understand the, that not everybody kind of, you know, loved us or her or her daddy, or thought badly of him. That it was going to kind of shake her view of a very kind of safe and in a rosy world. That was something that bothered me then, and it still bothers me now. She's got a sunny disposition, you know—
Rachel Vindman: She’s exceedingly happy unless I ask her to clean her room.
Yeah. I also think there was one moment that was hard for me. It was when I saw you reading your DD-2-14, which is a summary of your military service, that they got to you two days after you requested retirement. Completely unheard of, we don't know anyone who's ever had that experience.
Alex Vindman: It doesn't happen.
Rachel Vindman: It maybe has never happened before. And when you read just a one-page summary of 21 years 6 months and 10 days of your life, and the emotion on your face, it was… that was the moment that I knew you really had lost everything in terms of your career. That door was shut, and it wasn't going to be open again.
Alex Vindman: I still had you guys though.
Rachel Vindman: I mean, that's, that's how life is. Right. You know, I mean, that's why you have to focus on it now.
Alex Vindman: That moment was you know, that was just kind of kind of the… symbolic closing of a door.
Rachel Vindman: Sure.
Alex Vindman: So, you know, I definitely remember that, but I also had and have high hopes for us and for this country turning the corner. I mean, it sounds really dire when you say it like that, we have massive issues. And I want to continue to contribute to easing those issues, finding solutions. That's why I've been writing as much as I have. And then we'll see what we can, what good things we can do.
But I do have a question for you. Do you remember—I don't, I don't really remember, but do you remember—the day the whistleblower report came out? And I suggested maybe that we need to check into professional liability insurance?
Rachel Vindman: Was it really day though? When you told me, was it really day when you mentioned it?
Alex Vindman: I mean, I don't know. It could have been night.
Could you, could you remind me of that? Cause I don't remember exactly what happened.
Rachel Vindman: Yeah. You just said, “Hey, so, there is this whistleblower report.”
And I said, “Yes, I remember hearing about it. I was going to look it up, but I forgot. I got busy.” So, you said “It was about a phone call between President Trump and President Zelensky,” and I happened to know that there had only been two of those. So, I said, “Oh, the one that was just a few weeks ago before we went on vacation?” and you said, “yes.”
Then you asked me to check on your professional liability insurance the next day. Then you rolled over and went to sleep.
Alex Vindman: Wait, this is right before we went to went to sleep?
Rachel Vindman: You can't act surprised about this, Alex, because you literally wrote about it in the book. And I think you only wrote about it in the book because I told you about it. I reminded you that this happened.
Alex Vindman: That seems odd. It seems odd that right before we go, that seems odd that right before we go to sleep… Did I sleep okay?
Rachel Vindman: You did. I did not. I was awake all night and I read everything that there was open source… well, obviously open source, cause I don't have access to anything else.
Alex Vindman: We don’t have any secret servers in the basement.
Rachel Vindman: There are not. But you didn't seem overly concerned, although you definitely are really good or, you know, when you worked in government, in the military, you were really good at keeping things, a secret that you…
Alex Vindman: You needed to hear all the super-secret stuff I got to do in Russia.
Rachel Vindman: You know, and that was a really difficult thing for me, when you were accused of leaking classified information. Because… hello, if you had leaked classified information, my life would have been a lot more interesting! And I would have been privy to a lot more salacious tips than I actually—or salacious news, I should say—then I have.
Alex Vindman: Oh my gosh. There’re so many cool stories. I have to tell you someday.
Rachel Vindman: I look forward to it.
In the book, you say that “doing the right thing means doing the right thing in the right way.” How do we know what the right thing is and how do we know the right way to do it?
Alex Vindman: So, I think there's oftentimes an instinct about these things that might form over a breadth of experience. You learn through your mistakes, you learn through your successes.
Rachel Vindman: Sure.
Alex Vindman: I think one of the ways that you could figure out if you're doing the right thing is that you could ask a fundamental question… “is this purely about my needs and my benefits, or is there an external component?” And that's why I'm such a strong advocate for public service. As public servants, there's all sorts of training on ethics and so forth.
But it's the, it's the 20 years of service as a troop leader making on the spot corrections, training your subordinates to do the right thing, you kind of start to understand what the right thing is. And what the right way of doing things is. And then when you are faced in fact with the most difficult challenges, even challenges that you've never kind of experienced thus far, there's no template for action, you've developed kind of a series of measures to determine what the right thing is.
Sometimes when I, when I talk about this topic, as I've done to students on several occasions, I talk about it in this idea of building muscle memory. You're training yourself to react in a particular way or righteous, ethical way. And that's how you build your muscle memory.
And then you trust in your equipment. The fact that you've actually done this repeatedly the right way, you trust that you now have the equipment, and you could just follow through on it. And I, yeah, you heard me say this idea of, we don't jump out of a plane because we're ordered to jump out of a plane. You know, that's part of it, but we jump out of the plane because we've been trained on how to do it the right way. We understand how to exit an aircraft. We understand how to sail through the skies. We understand how to land.
And you can consult with your wife. She's oftentimes more than happy to point out, you know, the wrong ways and how you get to the right way.
Rachel Vindman: That’s true. I’m a great resource.
You know I was a flight attendant, and I actually trusted the equipment that I worked with to be safe enough that no one needed to jump out of the planes. Now that I'm a mom and I have been for ten and a half years, for me, the right thing to do is what I would want my daughter to do, our daughter to do. And that's something that I work on every day, but that's my textbook definition now.
So. This is my favorite part, the rapid-fire questions.
Alex Vindman: Is this the part of the game show where we ask each other questions rapidly?
Rachel Vindman: Yes. Yes. Yes. The rapid fire questions.
So. If they made the book into a movie, who would you want to play me?
Alex Vindman: I would have in the past went with Scarlett Johansson, but that Black Widow movie was kind of a bit of a stinker. Who are some famous redheads?
Rachel Vindman: I like Julianne Moore.
Alex Vindman: Oh, she's cool. I like her. Yep. Who would you cast to play me?
Rachel Vindman: I still say Matt Damon. I know you said Leiv Schreiber before.
Alex Vindman: I think Chris Evans, Captain America.
Rachel Vindman: Oh, sure, okay.
What intrigued you most about me on our first date?
Alex Vindman: I thought you were beautiful. You had this striking red hair. But that was just on the first sight. I thought you were super confident, smart, well-traveled.
Now, if you had to give a dramatic entrance, what would your theme song be?
Rachel Vindman: Rhinestone Cowboy, by Glen Campbell.
Alex Vindman: Really?
Rachel Vindman: Like a rhinestone cowboy, riding on a horse?
Alex Vindman: (singing) Like a rhinestone coooowboyyyyy…
Rachel Vindman: I love that you're from New York City—born in the Soviet Union, Kiev, by way of New York City—and you know, the words to Rhinestone Cowboy. Now it's really a melding of our cultures, right?
Which one of us is a better singer?
Alex Vindman: You're a better singer. You're also a much, much better chair dancer. You're an awesome chair dancer.
Rachel Vindman: Fact, it's fact.
Alex Vindman: Yeah, I think this is a little off topic, but I am like mesmerized whenever I see you getting, putting on your… you know, your camouflage, as I put it. When you're putting on your makeup and stuff like that, it just, I could just watch you there. There's something cool about that.
Rachel Vindman: That's not creepy at all.
Alex Vindman: Who takes, who takes longer to pack for vacation? I guess if you have a minute, it only takes a minute.
Rachel Vindman: Yes.
Alex Vindman: I'd like to pack it early.
Rachel Vindman: See, this is… yes. You know, my friend Beverly said she saw a meme that “there are two kinds of people: those who pack two days before vacation and those pack on their way to the airport, and they marry each other.” Definitely that's absolutely true, they marry each other, and I am the person who waits till the last minute.
We've moved a lot. So what's one thing that you always need to have to feel like you're at home?
Alex Vindman: I think with you guys, frankly, it's just you guys, any place where you and Ellie are, is home.
What's the simplest thing I need you to do for me?
Rachel Vindman: Order food from Door Dash or Uber Eats.
Alex Vindman: Should we just leave it there?
Rachel Vindman: Yeah. I mean, yeah, but no explanation needed.
Let's talk sliding doors moments. Oh, this is so fun. If your life had taken a different direction and if you hadn't gone into the military, what do you think you would have done?
Alex Vindman: So, at one point there was this notion of going to medical school, pre-med. That’s a possibility. There was this, an alternative universe where I was at a tech guy. I had a job offer from Viacom to head an IT office in Times Square. And I could have been like a tech tycoon or something.
If you wrote an autobiography, what would it be? Actually, I really want you to write a book. This would be interesting, like a counterpoint or something. “Rags to Riches, The Story of Rachel Vindman”?
Rachel Vindman: That's really not true.
Alex Vindman: ”How Alex Vindman Saved Me.”
Rachel Vindman: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that, that's definitely the one. “How Alex Vindman Saved Me.” Haha.
I don't know, what comes to mind is something like, sort of super cheesy, like “Learning to Thrive” or something like that. Which is kind of that, that would be the story that I would maybe want to write, but that's a cheesy name.
Alex Vindman: ”Wife, Mother, Daughter, Troll-Slayer.”
Rachel Vindman: Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. “The Troll-Slayer.”
Alex Vindman: “The Troll-Slayer.”
Rachel Vindman: If I write an autobiography, I would name it “The Troll-Slayer.”
Alex Vindman: I like it. Let's go with that.
Rachel Vindman: What is something only one thing that I do that annoys you? Only one thing, Alex.
Alex Vindman: Maybe pick up after yourself a little bit more?
Rachel Vindman: But then wouldn’t your life be boring?
Alex Vindman: Yes, it would.
Rachel Vindman: So, I'm doing you a favor, really.
Alex Vindman: Other than that, you're perfect.
Rachel Vindman: Yeah, I'm just adding a little variety to your life, which you desperately need.
Alex Vindman: What was your favorite binge-watch this year? I think I know.
Rachel Vindman: Ted Lasso,yes. What was yours?
Alex Vindman: I love that one too, that’s the one that comes to mind because that was the one that I when I, when I was thinking about yours. You know, there's some good Sci-Fi out there. It might be something Sci-Fi.
Rachel Vindman: Sounds like an oxymoron but all right. Well, that is the end of our rapid-fire questions. Where can people find you online? Where can people find you on Twitter? A lot of people have found you, more people than have found me.
Alex Vindman: They could find me there, I'm not sure if I'm there that much, but at @AVindman on Twitter. And then the website, which is AlexanderVindmanbook.com.
Rachel Vindman: I liked the website. It turned out really well. Yeah, really, really cool. Thank you for joining us.
Alex Vindman: I'm super super excited to be on your podcast.
Rachel Vindman: This is like the most prestigious one you're doing, right?
Alex Vindman: The first one that I'm recording with regards to this book, and there was no other way. No other one.
Rachel Vindman: You really don't answer the question there, Colonel Vindman. Mister Vindman.
Alex Vindman: No, please call me Colonel. Is this the most? Yes, frankly, I don't care about the other ones. I'm just happy I got a chance to yours with you.
Rachel Vindman: Thank you.
BREAK
Amanda Weinstein: Welcome back everyone! Rachel, thank you for sharing your husband with us on the pod today.
Rachel Vindman: My pleasure.
Jasmine Clark: Yeah, that was super fun.
Rachel Vindman: He's a big fan. He's a big fan of the show. Legitimately. He usually listens to the episodes before I do. And then he will tell me his thoughts and what he learned from them.
Amanda Weinstein: So, I was thinking about interviewing him today and because I have to talk about an economist or economics every pod, if I can. There is something that an economist Albert Hirschman said and did, and basically when you are confronted with an organization that fails to live up to its ideals, right, you have three options. You can exit, you can voice—you can speak up and change it—or the third choice is loyalty. Essentially you just stay quiet.
And I was thinking about that today. You know, when we're going to interview Alex, because that's the choice he faced, right? You could essentially leave, leave the county. You could stay loyal, just stay quiet and not do what's right. Or you speak up, and do what's right and you change it. And I know Alex is this optimist—and actually Albert Hirschman was known for his optimism as well, actually, and both Jewish!—and I think it was interesting hearing that, you know, we have to speak up and we have to do what's right. And we have to do it for this love of, you know, our country and the American dream. And for having this organization, this country, live up to the ideals that it is supposed to live up to.
Jasmine Clark: Absolutely. And it matters. Why I love the title because right actually does matter.
Rachel Vindman: I liked how he said, “Right matters because we make it matter.”
Amanda Weinstein: I agree. I, yes, I love it. So that's why I love this podcast because it's about using our voice. Right. We're using our voice. When we see a country, when we see a system, when we see politicians not living up to their ideals, we're going to use our voice here on this podcast and talk about it. I think Alex with his book, with his testimony, has really given people the courage that he had to speak up and to use their voice.
Rachel Vindman: One of the most meaningful things to me was last week, I reached out to one of the officers who testified, and he wrote back to me that he watched Alex's testimony before his and he leaned on his strength and his courage. And it meant so very much to both of us that he would say that.
Amanda Weinstein: That is amazing.
So, Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy this week?
Jasmine Clark: So, my Toast to Joy this week is kind of bittersweet. So, it's joyful, but it's joy in the midst of a storm. And that is to my local community, Gwinnett County here in Georgia, following the science as we prepare to go back to school. So, I know that in other places… I’m not sure when you all go back and Ohio and Virginia, but here in Georgia, we are back in school now. And they have mandated masks.
My Toast to Joy is to following the science right here in Gwinnett County, even though it can be tough. Because as we talked about on the podcast previously, the squeakier wheels are not very excited about the idea of having to follow that science and do the right thing so that our kids can actually go to school in person.
Amanda Weinstein: I'm so over those people! Don't take your vaccine, just give it to me and go stick it in my kid's arm so she can get back to school in a couple of weeks.
Jasmine Clark: Right! All right. So, but we are on Toast to Joy. So, let's end on a happy note. So, Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy?
Amanda Weinstein: My Toast to Joy is to summer. I love summers, especially in Ohio every day, all day, pretty much you can be outside all day long. The weather is perfect. So yesterday we rode our bikes to the splash pad, and we played in the splash pad. And then from there we rode our bikes downtown and we ate take-out on our green area. And then we had a small outside concert on our green area. And it was just the perfect summer day. There's nothing better than a summer day, just riding around our bikes, enjoying our downtown. So, my Toast to Joy is to summer.
Jasmine Clark: I love summer as well. Although I'm starting to be more of a fall gal. I actually like fall. I like fall attire. I like summer events, but I like fall attire.
Amanda Weinstein: Oh yeah. I love fall. Give me a good sweater, some boots, ready to go.
Rachel, what's your Toast to Joy?
Rachel Vindman: Well, this week my Toast to Joy is actually the officers who testified last week. Just that reminder to keep fighting. So, for Alex and me, this week is a big week. It feels like a little bit of personal justice, you know, a recognition of what we went through. But the reality is there are many, many out there whose careers and lives and safety were taken just the way they were for us. And they are still not been recognized. And we don't think of them every day.
So, you know, after last week I was so touched and so moved and it's just really, you know, giving me that little encouragement, the reminder that this is a fight, as we've said several times on this week's episode, to keep fighting. Show them that their courage has inspired us to go out and be courageous as well.
So, on that note, everyone, thank you so much for joining us today. This was personally a very special episode for me, so thank you for joining us. If you've enjoyed our podcast, please leave us a rating and review, and we will see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.