SWP S5 E28 Transcript
Rachel: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman.
Jasmine: I'm Jasmine Clark.
Amanda: I'm Amanda Weinstein.
Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. I missed you all last week while we were taking a break for the American Fabric.
Amanda: Rachel, the American Fabric series was so great. I loved every episode. I thought it was so important.
And it was actually really, and I know I told you, it was really interesting to hear from women because I feel like when we talk about immigrants, for some reason, we're like assuming it's all men and it's like, oh yeah.
Rachel: We often do tell a story from a male perspective. But I think we addressed it that it used to be a lot of male migrants coming to work.
And that's what we saw, especially in our southern border. So I think there's like an overfocus on that. But we see now there are families, children, women making like, you know, arduous trips over the Darien Gap, which was once thought to be like, in not passable at all. And we have small children. Crossing.
So the narrative has changed. And we have to understand that if we're going to discuss it intelligently and understand, react to, you know, some of the things that people are saying so that we can, you know, say it clearly. But I loved hearing, especially just from the women who were immigrants, who are immigrants and their experience because I think It's so relatable to all of us as, as women, mothers, in a different way than any stories that are told.
And I have to give the biggest thanks to our producer, Amy, who makes this show incredible and also made my dream idea of the American fabric. And I hope that everyone was able to listen and learn something from it and be able to have a conversation, you know.
This week, we're talking to Jessica Valenti about her new book. She writes a newsletter called Abortion Every Day, and she just published a new book, Abortion, Our Bodies, Their Lives, and the Truths We Use to Win. Just last week, Trump told women that he'll make us happy and quote, no longer thinking about abortion and Bernie Marino, who's challenging Senator Sherrod Brown in Ohio called suburban women crazy for caring about their abortion rights.
So let's just jump into it, ladies. Are we crazy for wanting our rights? By the way, I was in Ohio when that happened last week and it didn't go over well with suburban women I was with. weird.
Amanda: It did not go over well. I bet like, and we have talked about this, like calling women crazy again, tail as old as time, come up with something new.
They're still calling us witches and calling us crazy. Like, come on, come up with something new here. It's like, yeah.
Rachel: I know there's no new or hysterical. Remember the woman at Arlington national cemetery, she was hysterical. She had a mental health moment. So good job. You have offended, you have like just downplayed any kind of mental health issues and you have offended women by calling whenever we stand up for ourselves or enforce something, then we are quote hysterical. Awesome. Well done.
Jasmine: I just don't understand their tactic for courting suburban women. We are clearly an important voting block for 2024. You know, it's really to me this idea that oh, I know how we can get them to vote for us.
We should call them crazy for wanting to have control over their own bodies. They love when we do that. I just, I'm oftentimes very confused about what they talk about in their strategy rooms or in their strategy sessions for how to get more votes. Because on the one hand, they recognize they have a suburban women problem, and on the other hand, they don't.
Their solutions to this problem seem to just make the problem bigger. And I love how they still perpetuate the stereotype that the only people who are seeking abortions are people who are just like us. I guess unhappy and just like don't want to have a baby. And while yes, some people, and which is their right, do not wish to remain pregnant if they become pregnant, that is not everyone's story.
And that's the whole point of abortion rights. We don't know everyone's story. We don't know everyone's reason. And so it's not just a matter of, Oh, we'll just, you know, I'll just make you happier. And if I'm the president, you'll be happy. And then you'll just want to have all the babies. Like that's like, not how life works.
Rachel: I hate talking about him, but he has gotten so unhinged just this weekend. He said that President Biden became mentally impaired and Kamala Harris was always mentally impaired, like she was born mentally impaired. So it is insulting both to individuals who are born with developmental delays. But also, I seem to remember a debate where he got his clock claimed by Kamala Harris. What does that say about him?
Amanda: Oh, that's such a good point.
Rachel: That’s a self own my friend, like that was ridiculous. But you know, another thing that Bernie Marino said and his thing was that he doesn't understand why women over 50 care. About abortion.
Amanda: I mean, I just like, I can't even so like really only Bernie Moreno, only men who can't have abortions are allowed to care about abortions, not women who can't have abortions.
It's just ridiculous. And the other thing is, I think he completely misunderstands his job. It is not his job as a representative to tell me what I care about. It is his job to listen to me and I will tell you what I care about. I think he has it completely backwards. And I hear this from most Republicans.
They want to go out there and tell us all what we should care about. No, no, no, no, sir. Let me tell you what's affecting me and my friends and our kids and our families. Your job is to listen to us and they just don't seem to get that.
Jasmine: Yeah. And then it's, it's like, first of all, whether you are able to have children, whether you're, postmenopausal, that doesn't mean you don't have people in your life, in your community.
And your family that you care about that these laws are directly affecting. I don't know why this concept of caring about someone other than yourself is so foreign to them, but guess what? I can care about how policies affect other people. And that is to me, something that's. Missing from their side is everything is about me, me, me.
Everything is about Trump, Trump, Trump, and their policies reflect that. Meanwhile, on the democratic side, you're saying, guess what? I don't have to be gay to care about. The fact that we are making policies that harm or target LGBTQ youth. I don't have to be black or Hispanic or Asian to care about policies that demonize or dehumanize certain groups of people because they are not white.
Like, I don't have to be that to care about that. And I don't understand again, sitting in their strategy session. I would love to be a fly on the wall. Why that is so hard for them to get.
Amanda: I mean, the emotional intelligence here is really left really lacking. We could all do with more discussions of empathy, but I don't like, they're not even taking common sense, human experiences like they have relatives.
And I think they probably care about those relatives and they really cannot connect the dots that someone else would care about their relatives and their friends. And like the strategies, I just can't get over it. Like even the calling women crazy, like Bernie Moreno. He has a wife, right? I'm pretty sure he's married, right?
He's got a wife. I'm sorry, but in, in one of the, um, discussions you've had with your wife, did calling her crazy go well for you?
Rachel: Yeah. How'd that work out?
Amanda: Come on, like, come on, like use your personal experiences. But like, I think we also need to talk about sex ed here. Like there's clearly a lot of that. They don't know if human anatomy and like-
Rachel: It continues to be, I mean, I, I really thought that at least this might open up a discussion that people might seem to learn something. And apparently that has not happened. It is now absolutely not happening. But, you know, I think we've all seen the truly tragic footage coming out of North Carolina, in particular, Western North Carolina.
I know, Jasmine, You were affected by this. We were like very temporarily affected by the storm. But, but you know, what's happening guys is like North Carolina has a democratic governor, but we're seeing Republican governors refusing to admit that they need federal aid and the politics of it are getting in the way of getting people what they need.
People that they are, that have paid into it, that deserve this. And. It's, it's a political issue, and it just, I, I do feel like Democrats are often very bad at highlighting this, because we just want to get stuff done, and especially elected officials want to get stuff done, but when there is this kind of obstruction, it is important to point it out, so that people might understand why FEMA is not in their area, you know, etc.
Maybe you have more insight into it.
Jasmine: Well, what I would say is here in Georgia, we're not turning FEMA away. We are accepting the help, but the problem I always have is our elected officials use this as opportunities to like, take shots at each other. Like this is not the time for that. Let's just make sure that people are taken care of.
And I don't know if y'all know about this, but we also on top of the storms, there was a chemical fire at a bio lab here, just not too far from my home in Rockdale County, which is a neighboring County to Gwinnett. And people are like, what am I inhaling? Like, what is. What is going on? And it was so interesting to me how all the people who claim they need small government and they're like, yeah, go project 2025.
Let's get rid of the EPA. And let's get rid of, you know, all these. Entities whose job is really to monitor air quality, get information out, you know, support local governments when they have these types of things, as, uh, as well as like FEMA and GMA and all these things. All these people who are so anti government and we don't need the government and, you know, taxation and stuff and all that stuff, blah, blah, blah.
They were like, Why is no one telling us what's going on? Why aren't y'all sending out text alerts? Is this dangerous? What are we supposed to do? This is your job! And I'm like, it's so interesting how you want government to work when there, something goes wrong but for whatever reason when everything is quote, fine you think that government is completely useless and there's no reason for it, there's no need for it and we need to like, Get rid of these agencies that are doing the thing that you now want to be available to you.
So whether it's a hurricane or this, this, that point is still the same. There are these people who don't recognize, like, for example, Project 2025 wants to get rid of the national weather Uh, I don't know the exact, uh, name of it. National…
Rachel: Weather Service, NOAA.
Amanda: Yes. Every time I say that, people think I'm talking about, like, NOAA and, like, the flood and the Bible.
Rachel: I mean, it is kind of relevant, though.
Amanda: Yeah.
Rachel: Well, we happen to know someone who a good friend of ours whose house was affected and, I mean, it's, it's basically uninhabitable. They had two or three feet of water and he was talking to a meteorologist and the issue is the way the climate's changing and the Gulf is so warm, when hurricanes, like, come into that area.
They are. We're going to see more of these like rapidly intensifying, like kind of seemingly coming out of nowhere situations. And that is what happened with this. And then it just went and, you know, I was in Oklahoma over the weekend with visiting my grandmother. So a lot of news was watched. And they said in Western North Carolina, they got 42 inches of rain in two days.
And the meteorologist, the local meteorologist in Oklahoma said we have 42 inches in a year, and they got it in two days. So this is one of those situations where we're like, it's the effect of climate change that we're all paying the price already. Like, don't think it's we're kicking the can. It is here.
It is real. And when we desperately need our government to be able to work together. We have so many that are undermining the entire process.
Amanda: But I think that's built in. Cause if you look at, so it reminds me of the COVID response. When you had so many of the conspiracy theories around COVID, what we saw here at Ohio is that people actually disbelieve that their loved one died from COVID and were then physically assaulting doctors and nurses saying that they lied.
And it was, you killed them. Like we, yeah. And this was not just like one incident. This was many. And so I get worried the same with climate change. Like they had been told that this is not a big deal. This is a hoax. It is not made me to all of the lies I've been told. So then when something like this happens, where you have a big climate event and you get people who don't believe it, who then, you know, immediately turned to these crazy conspiracy theories of it was the Biden administration controlling the weather and they're the ones where homes are–
Rachel: Because it’s easier for them to believe that it is more comfortable to believe that than to believe we talk about this a lot it's more comfortable for them to embrace that than to say, uh, maybe I was wrong about this.
I mean, it's hard for a lot of people. I mean, you know, maybe me to admit they were wrong.
Amanda: Which we never hear that when they're like, Oh, it turns out like people rarely have some self reflection there. Like, I mean, one, whoever you talked about, it's like, I don't think Mark Mark Robinson has no self reflection with like, holy cow.
I know we don't have time to get into all of his stuff, but wow.
Rachel: But we do actually, because we, have a guest from North Carolina, so we can absolutely ask her. I think it's a good time to bring her on. So we're bringing Janice Robinson, red wine and blues program director in North Carolina, back to join us.
Hi, Janice.
Janice: Hi, everybody.
Rachel: I have to say Janice's episode that she did with us like years ago is one of my very, very favorites. And her story of why she fights has really resonated with me for. several years. And I always love seeing Janice. So it's great to see you. It's great to have you.
We're just not going to waste too much time talking about Mark Robinson. But, what is the reaction to North Carolina when the news came out about him?
Amanda: Although we should probably recap. Can you also recap what was the most recent news about Mark Robinson?
Janice: Yeah. So, well, that was a report that came out about him hosting on a a porn site, some of his usual crazy stuff.
And so that was this, you know, storms around that and CNN picked it up and several of his staff has resigned and so forth. You know, my attitude is bad. You know, he's, he has said so much crazy stuff. He's like. You know, it's already out there. And so, hey, we got a lot to run on. And we are part of a coalition called CARE, Coalition Against Robinson's Extremism.
And so we've been working on messaging around him for a year and a half. And so we've got a lot of stuff on him. So the latest was some stuff that supposedly showed up on a porn site.
Rachel: How is that playing in North Carolina? Inter terms of like, because there is a sense of desensitizing and we see it same with Trump that it's so much crazy all the time It's it's hard to process.
Janice: Yeah, you know, so the people who are with him or with him. I mean, we're divided we are a purple state. Yeah, so the people who are with him and Trump in the crate and they're crazy, you know coalition then they're stuck there.
They're gonna be there those of us on the other side who are like determined that he cannot be our governor because we're still working to try and make sure that, you know, make sure that happens. And he's down 14 points. He was down 14 points for the last two, three weeks. Now that we're going to lighten up in terms of our efforts to make sure he doesn't become our governor.
So it's, it's divided. My issue is with the media folks who are, a lot of times, they want to hold progressive candidates to a higher standard VP Harris, you know, to a higher standard than they do with Trump. You know, why don't they ask him about his policy plan? Where's his policy plan?
Amanda: He’s got a concept.
Janice: He has a concept. Right.
Amanda: I mean, a lot of what we hear too, when we hear about this craziness and what crazy thing did they pick up? We hear so much talk about the crazy that we're inundated with the crazy things that Mark Robinson says, or that Trump says, or Vance or Moreno, we can go through the list of all the crazy stuff that they're all out there saying.
But what we're not talking about is like, what are the issues that I care about that your family cares about that people in North Carolina care about? So what are the issues that you're hearing that suburban women in North Carolina talk about? What should we be talking about? What are the real issues?
Janice: I'm glad you asked that question because these are the issues that we have uploaded in our rally tool in North Carolina. But those who may not be familiar, this is our. Rally is our red one and blue, our web based platform that we're using, um, to, uh, help our volunteers. To mobilize people in their network using relational organizing.
When relational organizing is 22 times more effective than the traditional strategy tactics, like canvassing, phone banking, text banking, 40 times more effective than writing postcards. And that makes sense when you think about it theoretically, because people will listen to the people that they know. I don't know about you all, but I'm getting all these text messages and phone from people.
I am not responding to any of them. I keep just putting in stop. I'm going to–
Amanda: I am told stop probably one hundred and ninety two times. Sorry. I hate.
Janice: So the issues for North Carolina, first of all, public schools, you know, we, because the general assembly has a super majority, thanks to Tricia Cotham, they're Democrats who switched her party affiliation to Republican and gave them the supermajority. We have plans for her. I'm going to make sure she does not get reelected and I live near her district.
So this, because the general, the Republicans have control of the general assembly, they have been wiping out rights in North Carolina, voting rights, abort, reproductive rights, abortion rights. They are dismantling our public school. They have been working on dismantling our public schools for the last 30 years.
So we care about public schools. The women in our network care about our abortion rights. This abortion ban, this 12 week ban, it is a ban. We care about gun safety. We care about voting rights. And we care about stopping this discrimination against the LGBTQ community and the black and brown communities.
They are going, they have gone at the DEI. In our, um, university system, we have one of the strongest university systems in the country. They're dismantling that too. So what I say to our volunteers and even to my team, you know what? Turn off social media, turn off the TV. I canceled CNN and MSNBC three years ago.
We don't need to watch that stuff. We just need to keep our head to the grind, our nose to the grind. And get people to the polls so that we can take back our rights in North Carolina.
Jasmine: So you mentioned y'all's 12 week ban on abortion and, here I'm in Georgia and, we have a six week ban and it's really actually been devastating.
Unfortunately, we got news after they finally, you know, did the reporting on deaths that have, you know, happened in the state of Georgia, a return on mortality, you know, there are people who are dying, literally dying. from our abortion policies. And so you mentioned y'all's 12 week. Could you expound on that a little bit more?
Like what is the actual situation on abortion rights in North Carolina right now? And why is that in particular personal for you?
Janice: Yeah, it's personal for me because I went through one of those back alley abortions when I was 15 years old and almost bled out. My mother did not take me to the hospital, she cared for me at home. And from what I'm hearing about what's going on with women today, you know, I could have literally, I could have bled out and bled to death. I think about the young lady in Georgia recently who, about two weeks ago that died, she came to North Carolina to get an abortion. I am a volunteer.
I'm a volunteer escort. It is personal to me. I don't want to see any other person, woman go through that. It was horrible. It was horrible. The issue is that they are taking the control out of the hands of women along with their doctors, their decision where their pastors or whoever. I tell people as someone who spent four years in full time ministry, I had to come to resolve.
About the whole faith thing about it, and I know the scriptures that people are using, but I'm gonna tell you what, and I've been a, um, I've been a pro, I guess for abortion rights, probably for 35, 40 years, because I made the decision, regardless of what I read in the scriptures, I do not want some government official trying to tell me what to do with my body.
And so that's what it is for me. It's none of their, as Walz said, mind your damn business. It's none of your business what's going on with me and my body. And so I don't want no government official trying to control us.
Rachel: Janice, I have to ask with all the craziness that you have in North Carolina, I mean, this nonsense with Mark Robinson, what do you say when you talk to people or people on your team talk to People to women and they're like I just can't.
It's too much. I, I don't know what to do or say. I'm like, I just want no part of it. I don't want to have anything to do with it. What do you say to those women, to those people?
Janice: Well, we’re not hearing a lot of that. The women in our network, the 27, 000 plus in our network, fired up or fighting like hell.
They are pissed off. Hey, what the sweep said? Suburban women engaged and pissed off. We're empowered, engaged, and we're pissed. We are working like heck. I haven't heard any of that. So now what I, and just one with one of my coaching sessions with some of our, with our G O T V organizers this morning, one shared about a conversation she had with someone who was You know, it's kind of like, you're pretty much a Trumper, you know, kind of person.
A key thing is to not really allow yourselves to get distracted by MAGA people who just want to debate stuff. We don't have time for that. So we don't, we don't indulge in those conversations. If somebody is a Conservative because we do have conservative women in our network and I'm proud of that because women across the political spectrum is concerned about having rights and having to put the schools in North Carolina.
Yeah. So if people want to have a conversation, need a little bit more persuading and we're here for you, we're ready. But if somebody just want to kind of jab and stuff about idiot Trump and all this crazy and if it's like, you know, I don't have time for that. We don't have time and we're not going to get distracted by those folks.
Amanda: Oh, I love that. There's a lot of bad faith arguments that they just want to distract and stop talking about the real issues that are really affecting people. But I also love that you mentioned like your faith. And I feel like one thing that the right does. Is they have co opted faith in general. And when we, they talk about faith and having faith, they talk about it as if it is only Christians, typically what they're saying, there's white Christians who believe a certain way.
And even the media, the media talks about evangelicals who they're talking about really is white evangelicals, but we don't often, and they've co opted in my opinion, they've co opted some of this faith, but we don't often hear the same talked about with, there are people on the left who also have a faith and we don't hear about that as much.
Janice: Exactly, exactly. And and I say they, they've hijacked Jesus.
Amanda: I mean, talk about the whitewashing. They're like, Hey, here's a Jewish man. And we're going to pretend that he is like some white boy from the United States. We're like, okay, that's weird. But no.
Janice: Exactly. Exactly. And I tell you, that's just the couple of documentaries are going around. We are helping with that.
When we are doing the call to actions for a lot of the screenings of bad faith If you haven't seen it, go see it. It's about Christian nationalism. And I'm going to tell you, I was so angry as a Christian woman. I was so angry at that movie. So you just got to watch the movie. You got to watch the movie. Yes. They have hijacked Jesus.
Rachel: Yeah. Janice, thank you so much for joining us today. It is always a pleasure. And please to anyone on your team in Western North Carolina, please let them know that we are all thinking of them and they are in our hearts. And you know, we hope that we can come together as a nation and give them what they need to rebuild and, you know, get back to what it means to all be American and to come together in times of crisis, which it really is one for them.
And we are, we are thinking about them nonstop. So, but thank you. Thanks again.
Janice: Thank you. Thanks for having me guys.
BREAK
Rachel: I'm joined by a true champion for reproductive rights. She has a sub stack newsletter called abortion every day. And her new book is abortion, our bodies, their lives, and the truths we use to win Jessica Valenti. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Jessica: Thank you for having me.
Rachel: Abortion every day is exactly what it sounds like.
You write a newsletter about abortion every day. What kinds of abortion related topics do you talk about, and how do you find the will to write one every single day?
Jessica: I mean, the will, I think, just comes out of necessity. I think, you know, all of us who care about this issue are sort of doing whatever we can, whatever contribution we can make, and for me, this is it.
In terms of what I write about, it's really everything. I'm, I, part of the reason I started the newsletter was because it was so clear to me once Roe was overturned that such a huge part of their strategy was to overwhelm us into inaction. And so I'm really trying to provide a little bit of order to that chaos.
And so I'm covering you know, news about bans and court cases and policies. But I'm also looking at anti abortion strategy, um, attacks on democracy with ballot measures, which we've seen a lot of in the last few weeks. So really, like, really anything I can. And the hope is to just make sense of it, make people feel like if they have like five, ten minutes to read this every day, they will actually know what's happening because that is the scary thing about what's going on.
I mean, there's a lot of scary things, but feeling so out of control, like there's all of this stuff going on, all of these attacks, and there's no possible way for anyone to, you know, to reasonably know everything. And so I'm just trying to make that a little bit easier.
Rachel: I like that. I mean, This is something we talk about a lot on the podcast, but we need to bring these up and come.
We need to bring these subjects up in conversations with our friends and you can arm yourself with information to bring it up. And then as we always talk about, like, then you become kind of someone who might be known as a trusted, you know, authority, uh, you know, among your friends on the subject and they'll come back to you.
And then also it helps us sort just. The total avalanche of misinformation that we're constantly with which speaking of which extremists claim that no one is actually being denied health care because of abortion bans. But just this week, ProPublica reported on a case where a woman in Georgia died Because of delays in care.
So let's talk about what's happening to women in states with abortion bans.
Jessica: Yeah, I mean, the ProPublica piece was so devastating. Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad that it was ProPublica that published this piece and really did her story justice. I mean, the truth is there are a lot of deaths that are happening.
Um, we're just not hearing those stories both because a lot of mainstream media outlets don't want to cover them. They're not comfortable. They get caught up in legal. I could go on a whole like 30 minute rant about this. So part of it is the mainstream media coverage problem, and that's why I was so happy to see ProPublica cover this.
And then the other piece of it, which is actually sort of a weirdly good piece of news, is that I think a lot of anti abortion activists are protecting these families. When someone comes forward with a story about their loved one, about someone in their family, someone they know, I think a lot of activists are being honest with them about what to expect if you decide to go public with this.
In that way, it's actually Good like people know like are being told the truth about what they can expect if they go forward with these stories and a lot of the time it means possibly, you know, having your loved one's life combed over by this right wing media machine, which no one really wants. And so we're not hearing the vast, vast, vast majority of Post row death stories. And there are a lot.
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. At the debate, Oh, the debate. At the debate, Trump repeated the lie that some states allow after birth abortions. Okay, which is just murder and it's illegal everywhere, to be clear. What is going on with this? What is the truth and why do they say this?
Jessica: It's so frustrating. It's really, It's such an awful thing on so many levels, um, but I think if people knew where this talking point actually came from, they would realize how much worse it actually is. I mean, really, what they're talking about is palliative care for, for fatally ill newborns, right? They're talking about the fact that in many states, as there should be, there are laws that allow parents to make medical decisions for fatally ill newborns that say, we're going to, you know, decline, medically invasive, painful procedures that are just going to be done in vain.
And instead, we would like to have, you know, a few peaceful minutes with our child to say goodbye without tubes, without wires. And somehow the anti abortion movement has warped that into being post birth abortion. And which, it's just so incredibly cruel. You're talking about families who are going through this really horrific, tragic situation, and then you have, you know, the Republican candidate for president calling them executioners, right?
Like, talking about families who are going through one of the most difficult moments of their lives, um, and talking about them in this really, really horrible way. It's sort of their only recourse, it seems like. You know, Americans can see with their own eyes all of the post war horror stories, just how extreme these abortion bans are, what the consequences are, and so they're trying very hard to paint the other side as the real extremists, um, and that's hard to do when you have women, you know, dying of sepsis because of your laws, and so they're just trying very throwing everything that they can at the wall, even if it means, you know, throwing American families under the bus to do so.
Rachel: Yeah, I think that's really important. You know, I remember when our daughter, who was born very early, she lived a week, and then we made the decision to remove her from life support. And actually, we had to make the decision whether to resuscitate her after she was born, and we did. And then. You know, no one can tell the future.
So we didn't know if she would have issues. And I really empathize with these parents who are, you know, trying to figure out what to do. But also like, if she was just under 24 weeks, if we hadn't elected, I mean, she would have been born. There was no way to stop it. And she just would have died because she couldn't survive on her own outside my womb.
And I think that is something that we really, Don't talk about enough, you know, it's like it's not it's death It's actual death after the baby is born because the baby cannot survive and we're not talking about this and you're right It is palliative care. I love that Describing it and framing it in that way because it's exactly what it is It's palliative care and then parents have a moment with a child who will pass away because this is an unfortunate Reality and it happens a lot more than people think although we're hearing more about You How often it happens because these stories are being promoted.
Jessica: I'm so sorry that you went through that, and I, I have heard from so many people with similar stories who are horrified by, you know, one, that their, their stories are being used as sort of like political fodder, and two, the idea that, like, in that moment, that you wouldn't have a choice, that, that you would have no say, um, is just, it's just a nightmare, a nightmare idea.
Rachel: Yeah. On that night, when our daughter Sarah started not doing well and the doctor sat us down and was like, you know, he was the neonatologist and he said, you know, like, here's the deal. And we had to make a decision. And the thing is. If she had stayed in the isolate, she was struggling. I mean, we could easily see she was struggling.
So I also think what this brings to me so much in this whole discussion is the lack of trust of women to make decisions that no one trusts us. To do the right thing. It's like this assumption that someone else has to decide because you could never be trusted to. And, and this like, just evilness that's pushed on us is very bizarre, but it is, it definitely exists in, in this space, a lot of this projection of evil and, um, and that women will.
Never do the right thing or most won't. So we have to take away their choice and we can't we have to limit it or who knows what's going to happen.
Jessica: Yeah, it's both like infantilizing right and also projecting this this evil like women are waiting deliberately till the ninth month for fun. You know, it's Very bizarre.
Rachel: Well, okay, on a happier note, I would love to know more about your book. Can you tell listeners about it?
Jessica: Sure. Yes. I'm really excited. It is out October 1st. It's based on the work that I've been doing at the newsletter, um, over the last two years, two and a half years. Time is like meaningless now. Who knows?
But you know, the hope was to both, you know, capture this very particular political moment in time, but also give people sort of the language and information and context they need to be able to talk about abortion in their own lives. I hear from so many readers and so many people who care about this so much and they Not everyone but a lot of people are nervous to talk about it They don't know how to talk to friends and family and they don't know You know what am I gonna say to my father in law when he says such and such and so to sort of I think about it, people ask me if I'm, you know, preaching to the choir, I think about it as arming the choir.
I'm like giving the choir what they need. Totally. To like have those conversations, to do whatever kind of activism they want to do in their lives, whether that means, you know, having conversations and sharing something on Facebook, or going to a protest, or running for office, you know, no matter what that means, I want to like arm them with everything that they need to, to do that.
And of course, it, I worked really hard to deliberately get the book out before the election, because I feel like, you know, this is just such a motivating issue for voters, and the hope is that it can, it can help, you know, You know, folks evangelize on this issue as much as possible.
Rachel: Yeah. And I mean, you'll be doing events and talking about it and people, you know, I think it's very timely.
Well, you know, as we get closer to the election, do you have any advice right now about how we can have conversations about abortion with our friends and family? You're right. It is so important. But what is your, you know, elevator advice for someone, if you will.
Jessica: Yeah, I mean, for me, I, I both say, you know, there's, I, I both called the newsletter abortion every day because I'm writing about it every day.
But because I think we need to be talking about it every day and have it be like a very normalized part of our lives and conversations that I don't think it needs to be. in this, you know, we're having a political debate now. Like, let's just talk about it in our, in our day to day lives. Um, but for people who are having a difficult time, or who don't know, you know, where to start, in addition to just, you know, arming yourself with as much information as possible, I think that asking people questions is often the way to go.
Rachel: If someone says to you, you know, you know, abortion is murder or whatever their, their thing is with abortion. Well, why do you think that? Tell me more about that.
Jessica: Where did that come, right? I think that essentially all of us want to be heard, right? We all want to be heard. We all want to be taken seriously.
And I think if we can manage, it's not always easy. Um, if we can manage to ask questions and Make people feel heard, they're more likely, you know, we're going to be more likely to find those entry points for conversation and agreement, and they're going to be more likely to hear us out, and that said, I always say, you know, your activist energy is a precious resource, you need to decide and that said, You know, where you are spending it, I don't believe in talking to brick walls, right? And that can be a hard thing to recognize if someone is a brick wall.
And you're just going to be spending that, that activist energy. Maybe rethink it. But there's a lot of people who have folks in their lives who they care about, who they want to, to, you know, make understand why this is so important. And I think like that's, that's one way to do it.
Rachel: Yeah. Hey, you know, I like that because sometimes we don't want to spend our energy needlessly, but also sometimes it's a matter of self care of knowing that we said something to someone, but you know, like my brother is that person. And, you know, I have to have conversation with one of them, but I have to have that conversation.
Like I wouldn't be able to go to the election, not having that conversation with them, even though I know in the state where he lives, how it's going to vote, how it's going to go. And I know he's not voting for Donald Trump, but there's one more step. And it is very important for me that I. Or maybe my husband, but one of us has that hard conversation and says those things, because I don't want to leave any stone unturned or wish that I had done more.
So it's both, but you know you know, you're definitely giving people a lot of good tools for that. Well, electing Kamala Harris and Democrats down the ballot is very important. We all know this, but several states, including where I live now, Florida also have abortion related amendments on their ballot this year.
Besides Florida, where are those amendments happening and do you think that's an effective way of fighting back for our rights?
Jessica: This is a, this is a great question. It's in all sorts of states, including pro choice states, right? It's, I'm here in New York, it's on the ballot in New York.The states that I'm sort of paying the closest attention to are Nebraska, Missouri, Florida, as you mentioned, Arizona.
It's in a lot of places. I think that direct democracy is a fantastic way to make our voices heard and to restore abortion rights where we can. Of course, I do worry about some of the the measures are you know, they're restoring Roe, which means they're codifying certain restrictions, right, later in pregnancy.
And so I do wish, of course, that we didn't have that language in there. I do think that we are at the point where we can fight for the end to government interference in our bodies and pregnancy and abortion altogether, because that is what Americans want. Over 80 percent of Americans do not want the government involved in decisions about pregnancy at all.
And so that would be my Hope my wish. I also live in New York and work behind a computer screen and do not know what it is like to, you know, work on the ground on a campaign in Ohio or Florida, or Nebraska. And so I have such a tremendous amount of respect for the activists who are there doing this work, just trying to, you know, stop whatever damage that they can.
What has been most interesting to me though, about these ballot measures is just seeing how desperate Republicans are to stop them, right? If they really thought that America was a pro life nation, why would they not want voters to have a choice? They are doing everything that they can, pulling out every dirty trick in the book, to stop voters from having a direct say on abortion rights because they know that when voters have a direct say, abortion rights wins.
And they don't care. What voters want. And so to me, this isn't just a moment about abortion rights. It's a moment about democracy. And what are, how well our democracy works. Yeah. And so it's 100%. It's, it's a lot.
Rachel: It is a lot. I like to frame it as We know 80 percent of voters want this, but in so many states it's restricted and that is minority rule.
That means the people you are electing are not representing the views of the constituents. Yes. Otherwise we wouldn't have this disparity. So we have the power to take it back. We need to use it. And even when it's in Florida, it's 60 percent that we have to, you know, get to and, and I, you know, it's, it's a high number, but I will tell you, you know, Ron DeSantis has tried to raise money to fight it, and he hasn't been successful.
He has not been able to raise money. Now he's trying to steal it from the state. There's a lot of weirdness, but yeah, it is Ron DeSantis. But I mean, there is that you see, there's a reason for that, just as you said, well, It has been so great talking to you today, but before we let you go, we do like to ask our guests some rapid fire questions.
Are you ready?
Jessica: Um, I think so.
Rachel: Okay. Okay. It's pretty easy. What's your favorite place to go on vacation with your family?
Jessica: Woodstock, New York, upstate New York. We like it. Yeah.
Rachel: Upstate New York is amazing. You've been very online as the kids say for a long time. What do you miss most about the early days of the internet?
Jessica: Oh, man. Um, like old school comment sections. We still have that and we have that at Substack, you know, and that's why I'm so grateful for the newsletter and for the community there. But there was something very special about like those early blogging days and the comment sections and the community in there and getting to know people. I do miss that sometimes.
Rachel: What's the weirdest thing about being a best selling author?
Jessica: Oh, goodness. Um that my kid thinks it's like incredibly uncool and really just like is so over it like really could not care less. That's pretty funny.
Rachel: Yeah, that is. I agree. My husband has another book coming out next year and she's like, uh, are we going to have to go to all those places again? And I was like, yeah. Oh, I know. It's just so hard.
Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and your work?
Jessica: I mean, abortioneveryday.com is definitely the best place. That is where I am spending all of my time these days, of course, on all the socials as well. And I have been dipping my foot into TikTok, which is a trip, but abortioneveryday.com is, I know. Can you imagine it? I waited for years. I lurked for years before I before I started making videos, but it's a good it's a good time.
Rachel: Well, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure to have you and best of luck with your book. I look forward to reading it.
Jessica: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
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Rachel: Welcome back, everyone. Jessica, what a powerhouse she is to write about the subject of abortion every day. You know, I think it an abortion rights. I don't think it's An easy task, and I've started reading her newsletter. I look forward to reading her book. And of course, we talked about the situation in Georgia that you are, you know, very well aware of the ProPublica article that was written.
Jasmine, you did an interview on that, correct?
Jasmine: I did. And you know, what was interesting about that whole thing is this idea that like, oh, we're just blowing things out of proportion. And this article was just meant to like, you know, it's propaganda. And I'm like, They literally reported on our own commission, like this is not, no one, we didn't make this up our own commission, put this, you know, they did the report and this group just said, we want to highlight what is happening in Georgia because we told them that's the thing about abortion.
It's such a large issue that has so many different possible outcomes that we really don't need people who have no idea what they're talking about, have nothing to do with it, inserting themselves into the situation. And so it's just–
Rachel: You can see from their reactions, it just goes back to, they don't know anything about it because they don't want to know.
They do not want to educate themselves. It is the willful ignorance. They do not want to educate themselves so that they have to think about it and have to understand this is a much bigger issue and talk about the religious right and bad faith. The decades and decades. that they used this as a wedge issue as a single issue.
And they don't want anyone to have to re examine that or think through it. So they just don't give the facts because that would make it much, much more difficult.
Amanda: Life is not simple. Like, and these decisions are not simple. Even the way we have all come to live on this earth is not simple. It is complicated and messy.
And if you really want to have those conversations, Conversations. It's going to be a messy and complicated conversation. It's not a soundbite or a talking point that the right has told you it is.
Jasmine: And you can't just, I brush it with policy. That's the problem. You trying to make policy as if it's just a very simple thing that you can just say, no, don't do it. And it's like, yeah, that's just not how this works.
Rachel: Before our toaster joy this week, we're encouraging everyone to join rally. We talked about it with Janice, but this election will be won or lost by the conversations we have with our friends and family. So let's make sure we're talking to everyone. We know you can track all your work and rally.
Just visit pod dot red wine dot blue slash rally. And I always say set reasonable goals. Like don't put a hundred people in there, put a reasonable amount today, a reasonable amount tomorrow. Like I, I like to do that too, but yeah, just, you know, Just, just a little bit. Don't make it like, make it possible.
We're all busy, but do your part and you can do it in five minutes a day. It is really, truly. That easy. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. So Amanda, what is your choice to join this week?
Amanda: So we had an event for the Hudson Community Foundation and every year Your pictures were so cute! It was like a 40s theme.
Channeling my grandma's for that and they pick a different, um, kind of project or something to donate the money to. And they picked the inclusive playground that I've been working on with, uh, some of my great mom friends and other parent friends, and we raised so far over 30, 000 for the inclusive playground.
And the audience was actually mainly people who don't have small kids. So we kind of went in there knowing. This audience. And just because of our area is not known for being a blue area. And a lot of them were really triggered by the word inclusive, uh, coming into it. Right. Because we have, you know, because of what the right has done to the word inclusive.
And so we've also gotten the advice of like, Hey, don't say the word inclusive. And we have really taken the strategy, which you guys might disagree with. I'm like, no, we're going to say inclusive because that is what it's actually called. But we're going to explain it, right? We're going to tell you what that means.
And here's what that means. We want to playground for all abilities and all ages to play together. Whether you're typical developing or you have special needs, or you're just a grandparent who has some mobility issues. We want everyone to play on this playground together. And that was it. And that's an inclusive playground.
And it was really great to see the reaction of, oh, I get it. This is great. I'm for this. And it was really nice just to hear, like, once we have that conversation. We can get it over some words that we might've had some misconceptions about, but it was a great event and I was really excited to see how excited the whole audience was to get involved.
Rachel: Good for you, for educating people to like, I mean, not only what you did, but like inclusive doesn't have to be a bad word.
Jasmine: I love that y'all took that approach. Cause I do think that oftentimes people do to take the approach of like, just don't say the word and trigger people, but then–
Rachel: I hate the messaging. That might recommends that I just hate it because then you're like always tripping over yourself.
Just explain something. It's much better. You only have to do that one time rather than like coming up with like creative ways to say things that just this is what I mean when I say inclusive in this context. Yeah. The way inclusive in general is not bad, but yes, I'm fine with it.
Amanda: The word itself.
Rachel: I know. All right, Jasmine, what is your toast to joy?
Jasmine: All right. I was trying to think of a good toast to joy, uh, because this last week was a little crazy. I was a little hectic, uh, with, you know, hurricane stuff and preparing for that and power going out and, you know, all these little things. And so I think my toast to joy is going to be to the people who are not slowing down on their messaging, especially, and just like talking about what's important to the voters, even in the face of like all this pushback from Republicans of like, oh, no one cares about abortion rights and stuff.
So this weekend we had a rally. Um, for Amanda, Thurman and Candy Miller, we're still talking about this and we're not going to stop talking about this. And there are people who really want us to quote, shut up about it and we're not going to shut up about it. And so I appreciate this. And one of the reasons why I appreciate this is because.
The unfortunate reality that I see from my perspective, and again, this is my perspective is a lot of times when black women die, people don't really care as much. It just doesn't rise to the top. And so I appreciate that we are talking about these two people because their lives were just as important.
And these policies put their lives at risk. Cause them to lose their life way too soon. And it doesn't matter if they were black or white or anything, but I am just appreciative of people saying their name, elevating their story and putting people on notice that we are paying attention and we're not going to stop talking about it.
So, you know, Republicans want to try to convince us that no one cares about abortion rights and we're quote crazy if we do. But the truth is we do and people appreciate when you're willing to stand up for them and stand up for their nieces and their nephews and their daughters and, and that, you know, anyone that might be affected by these things, because those two people could have been anybody.
My touch to joy is to elevating the issue and not holding back, even when people try to shut us down.
Amanda: Love that because we have had the data and research that shows that more abortion restrictions lead to higher maternal mortality, right? But those are numbers. And it is so hard for us to really like grasp those numbers and what that really means.
And you're like, I don't know, it's a number and they say this, but to have a name to go with those numbers. So it's not just a number, it is a person. And it's really important to do both and to have those names and to tell those stories.
Jasmine: Absolutely.
Amanda: All right Rachel, your turn.
Rachel: Well, I missed you guys last week, so, I have two Toast to Joys.
I'll make it really quick. I've gone around, I've traveled, I've been talking to women. It's been great. I was in Arizona, Ohio, North Carolina, and it's just, I wanted to go out and talk to some women and just tell them thank you for what they're doing and to remind them that they're making a difference.
And so they've made a difference in the past and their voices are important and to not stop. And then my other toast of joy is to my grandmother who I saw this weekend. She's recovering from a slight stroke and she turns 98 today. Today is her birthday, so it was wonderful to see her to spend just a quick time with her.
We'll go back for Thanksgiving, but we were with her this weekend for a little bit and it was. It was just really, really great and while one of my brothers and Ellie and I, one of my brothers and his family were with her, my other brother in LA was actually at an event with Alex, which was kind of weird, but, um, you know, it was, it was just really nice that we were kind of all together.
So we called them, we sang happy birthday to her and we kind of all got to be together, but it was really, really great. Really nice. And yeah, she's our last grandparent and our parents have both passed away. So anytime we get with her, it's very, very precious. And we are Grateful. And by the way, she's still super engaged on this election and fighting the growing fascism that continues to happen in Oklahoma.
So yes, she feels like she's not quite all there because of her stroke, but she's much more there than most people. And in fact, she called me to ask me. What the Biden administration is doing because the for the hurricane efforts, um, recovery efforts, because some of her friends were buying into this nonsense that the Biden administration isn't doing anything.
So she called me to ask me. On my way home on my layover, she wanted to know because she wants to call them and tell them. Yes. So go grandma. Bam. 98. Okay. She's going to push back.
Amanda: That’s awesome.
Rachel: Well, thank you so much to everyone for joining us today. If you missed the American Fabric last week, I really encourage you to go back and listen.
I'm very, very proud of the work we did there and the information we provided. So please listen and we will see you again next week on another episode of the Suburban Women Problem.