The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 11
Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman.
Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.
Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein.
Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. I just wanna remind everyone that Jasmine is still in session as a Georgia.
Jasmine: Last week!
Rachel: Yes! But who’s counting? And she's very busy and she is once again recording from the GA House floor from a phone booth like Clark Kent, and we are so happy to have her.
So last week, speaking of legislatures, last week, the House Judiciary Committee held a hearing called “Free Speech: The Biden Administration's Chilling of Parents' Fundamental Rights” with conservative speakers from Moms for Liberty, and Parents Defending Education. I'm a little surprised that they didn't invite anyone from Red Wine and Blue, but of course not.
Amanda: No! Weird, right?
Rachel: Yeah! Yeah. We're the majority but once again, the extremist voices are getting the most air. Where were the students themselves? What about their voices? So today we'll be joined by Claire Mengel, a young activist from Cincinnati who organized against the cancellation of Diversity Day in their high school. And after that, I'll get the chance to speak with Porsche Joseph, the author of Better Than We Found It: Conversations To Help Save the World.
Before we get to all that, how are you? What have you been seeing in the news this week? And I feel like I always ask that question, like with trepidation.
Amanda: Well, so what we're seeing in the news right now, breaking right now, is a school shooting in Nashville. Another one. I mean, I guess we can say that's in the news every week though.
Jasmine: Unfortunately, which is really sad. It's really sad commentary. But when you're talking about little kids, it's...
Rachel: Yeah. It is an elementary school. As of right now, when we're doing this, there are three children out and three adults, and I mean, this is a small school, 260 students, pre-K through sixth grade, a small, private Christian school. You think, “okay, that stuff isn't gonna touch me here.” The guys, there's nowhere that's insulated. There's nowhere that's safe. But I don't want anyone to learn that lesson. You know, as much as I know it myself, I'm sick, I mean, I, I've already seen the Twitter hot takes in the social media and like… I think you all know I'm pretty snarky and I'm often never afraid to go there, but just. My mom heart. All I can think about is…
Amanda: It's awful.
Rachel: Yeah, the only thing I wanna be snarky about is all the Republicans with their thoughts and prayers.
Jasmine: Yeah. I'm so sick of that.
Rachel: Who are you praying to? Are you praying to the god of guns? Because that seems to be who you worship. I mean, because like, what's most important to you? Because this is what they talk about all the time, and, and to me it's their right to own a gun is more important than anyone else's right to safety.
Amanda: And as heartbreaking as it is for the kids, and it's heartbreaking, we're also asking teachers to put their lives on the line. And these are also moms who aren't coming home to their kids. And it seems completely awful that at the same time that we have moms and teachers giving their lives for their students, you also have people on the right accusing them of supporting sadomasochism. Which is what Chris Rufo says about them, that they're supporting sadomasochism and grooming children, and these are the things that he is saying about my teachers here in Ohio. I know my teachers here in Ohio way better than Chris Rufo does. Like, I don't need to hear his opinion on these teachers who will literally lay their lives on the line for their children.
Jasmine: And unfortunately, we're in a situation where that's exactly what they're doing. They're literally, right now, today, we have examples of teachers having to lay their lives for their students. And that is way too much to ask of them.
You know, a lot of times when we're here on the floor in the legislature, I'm always like, “Why is this the bill that made it to the floor, to debate? Why is this the one?” And so we debated, you know, banning gender affirming care here in Georgia, we've debated, you know, all types of new mandatory minimum sentences, which we already have data that shows that does not work to actually do the thing you want it to do. We've debated all these other things, but you know what we have not brought to the floor? Any single thing that would even try to address the proliferation of guns and who has those guns and where those guns are, and anything to protect our children in schools. We've passed several bills with the words “protecting children” in them, and none of them have actually done anything to protect children from actual threats that they are actually facing every single day.
Amanda: And I would go even farther and say that they've actually endangered their safety. So in Ohio we have bills to ban diversity statements and they're fighting against anti-bullying programs. This makes our children less safe when you are fighting against programs that make everyone in school feel safe and included.
Rachel: I feel like we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about, and we, we touched on a little bit, but you know, there, there's already talk with… okay, school shooting, you know what that means? Cue the “Should we not just suggest that teachers could have guns,” but now it's escalating to “Should we require that teachers have guns and be trained to use them?”
And do you, do you see where we've gone from “maybe this is a good idea”-- okay, no one really thinks this is a good idea– to then “this is a requirement.” I mean, it's such an escalation, but I feel like it's something people are just like, “oh, shut up, that's stupid.” But that's happening. The change in language. The change of language is really disconcerting to me, of how it's like immediately what people go to and one of the first things. I don't know. I just find it really troubling and I don't feel like enough people talk about it cuz they think it's ridiculous and stupid, but it would not surprise me at all for there to be legitimate discussion around this area. What do you guys think about that?
Jasmine: I think we are definitely going to see this idea, that we have disproven time and time and time again, that more guns will somehow make us more safe. And I don't know how many more experiments we have to do, I don't know how many more lives have to be lost, before whomever keeps coming to this dumb conclusion gets it that that is not how, that's not how it works.
Amanda: The answer is the limit does not exist. That limit does not exist for Republicans. I mean, the other thing is we have this fantasy of the good guy with a gun, but the problem is teachers don't wear uniforms. One thing that keeps police safe is they're in uniform. So you know, “That's not the bad guy. I'm not gonna shoot at that guy.” Right?
I don't wear a uniform. Jasmine, I know you don't wear a uniform. The problem is if I am holding a gun, a police officer legitimately doesn't know if I am the good guy or the bad guy. And that is a big problem. And that happened in Colorado where you had a good guy with a gun, stopped the shooter, which is amazing, except for the police walked in there and thought he was a bad guy and killed him. It doesn't work. More guns just doesn't work.
Rachel: I mean, I did wear a uniform when I was a teacher, it was like a jumper with like an applique pencil on it, but it was a long time ago.
Amanda: Oh cute!
Rachel: It was the nineties though. And I do feel the need to–
Jasmine: Did it have a gun holster on it though?
Rachel: Indeed it did not. I mean, just like, to me, I have fired weapons before. It's not really my thing. Like before, before we went to Moscow, we had a special training done by, you know, conducted by the state department. Something they do for everyone. It was the first time I had ever fired a gun. I mean, I grew up around guns, like, my brothers hunted, it was just not ever my thing. And I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable about it in a classroom. And to do this with educators, you know, to have a good course on the whole thing about guns is, is really crazy.
Amanda: Cause we don't have enough on our plates. I mean, any of my students that have tried to see me switch between my PowerPoint and a video are not gonna feel comfortable with me switching quickly to a gun should the situation arise.
Jasmine: Not just that, there's professional development that teachers have to do. They have like all these professional development classes they have to do. It's already a limited amount of time to get those in. When are we actually teaching them to shoot guns and are we really expecting them to shoot their students? Because I think that is a part of the conversation that is not discussed. We always assume that it's gonna be some stranger, some random crazy guy from outside, you know, coming in. But what if it's the kid that you've been trying so hard to get through to, and that's the kid that now you're in charge of shooting? And what happens if you can't bring yourself to do it? And maybe that student doesn't shoot you, but they shoot someone else and then someone says, “Well, now you're liable because you didn't go through the process of shooting and killing this child?”
And there's just so much with that that we don't think about when we decide that we're gonna try to implement these stupid policies instead of just saying, “Hey, let's acknowledge that there's way too many guns in the hands of the wrong people. Let's figure out how to do that. Let's keep guns outta the hands of kids.” That shouldn't be a, that shouldn't be political, right? Like, “Hey, maybe seven year olds shouldn't have guns. If you have a seven year old in your house and you have a gun in your house, keep the gun away from the seven year old.” Why is that controversial?
Rachel: Seriously. So speaking of… let's just say dexterity, and as you were saying Amanda, about switching between PowerPoint and a video, did you guys– and Jasmine, I know you're busy with your own hearings– but did anyone catch the TikTok hearings? Because I've never felt more… I don't know, technologically proficient than I did watching some of those people talk about “the WiFi.” I'm not saying that there might not be a problem with TikTok, but I'm just saying if there is, those guys don't understand it.
Amanda: They’re not gonna figure it out. It's gonna take somebody else.
Jasmine: Why do they put “the” in front of everything? I just don't understand, why is it “the Facebook”? “The TikTok”?
Amanda: I mean, but this is an issue when we have like really old, sorry, but when we have very… experienced people, older people representing us, and a lot of them don't even have kids in the house anymore, like they completely don't represent what we want. So you have all of them figuring out how they can somehow regulate all of this stuff, from regulating social media to regulating schools, to regulating teachers, to regulating content.
They're just sitting in a room. They're people who know nothing about any of those things and don't listen. Like that's really where the issue is, we don't listen to parents. We don't listen to students. We don't listen to the majority of voices. They just listen to an extreme minority, and they're just very loud. But let's be clear, guns? More scary than TikTok.
Jasmine: That's what I'm saying!
Amanda: Hands down, guns are scarier than TikTok.
Jasmine: That's what I'm saying. I am like, “Come on guys, like the things that you give the most energy to and the things that you are willing to ignore are just mind blowing. I'm like, what do we need to call guns, TikTok? Will that get it? Do we need to, you know, call guns uteruses and that'll get your attention? I'm just trying to figure out, I'm trying to be solution oriented here because at this point I'm just like, I'm tired of babies dying. I'm tired of sending my kid to school and just hoping and praying my kid comes home and I don't get that text message, or I don't find out from the news, that something horrible has happened. Like it's so infuriating to me.
Rachel: We spend a lot of time thinking about this, but unfortunately our children also have to spend a lot of time thinking about this. And on that note, I think it's time we can bring in our Troublemaker and we're gonna hear, you know, the issues in public schools from a student's perspective, which is really important.
Claire is a student activist and a National Merit scholar. When their high school canceled Diversity Day last year, Claire organized a student walkout and even testified before the Congressional subcommittee on Civil Rights and Civil Liberties.
Hi Claire. Thanks for joining us.
Claire Mengel: Thank you so much for having me.
Rachel: Well, I'd like to start with, you know, by asking you about Diversity Day, which was canceled at your school. What was that event and what happened? Why did they cancel it?
Claire: So, Diversity Day was a majority student-led event that was, basically, an effort for students at my high school who were interested to come together and talk about race, about how it affects people, and about a lot of the things that we weren't seeing in our community being talked about very often.
It had been going on for, it was going on its seventh year and all the students were getting excited about it. We had a ton of student leaders planning it and the school board of my school ended up canceling the event the day before it was supposed to happen.
Rachel: It had gone on, just to be clear, for seven years. And then all of a sudden it was a problem.
Claire: Yes. Seven years, no issues. And there had been a change in the members of the school board, and they decided it wouldn't go on any longer, so they canceled the event. And basically the summary is the community said, no, we're not okay with that. We want this event. We wanna be having those conversations and we sort of fought back.
Amanda: That's awesome. So I think it's interesting cause I know even in my own school board we've had parents talk about, you know, inclusive bathrooms and how parents didn't like inclusive bathrooms. And we've had parents talk about CRT a lot. And so I think we talk a lot about extremists who are trying to prevent students from learning about race, gender, sexuality, and even empathy, but we don't hear the student's perspective as much. And a lot of parents just jump to what they think and how they feel about these things without even asking their own children sometimes.
So what do you think students think about all of this stuff that's been happening in the media, talking about your schools and your classrooms and your teachers without getting your perspective?
Claire: Yeah, absolutely. I think, at the end of the day, a lot of students just wanna learn. This was an entirely volunteer event. It was volunteer students leading it. It was completely optional for students to spend their day learning about this stuff. And we had, I think, over a hundred students who wanted to come spend their day talking about this. Students know what they can handle. They know what they wanna have discussions about, and what they really want is for adults and their community leaders to listen to them when they say, “I can handle this. I wanna learn about this.”
Rachel: Well, I think we don't talk about that enough of, of what what you're trying to do is raise an awareness movement. I think that's great that you as students and kids are doing that. As adults, we try to do that too, but a lot of our elected leaders choose to only think about and talk about what they want to, or what's important to their personal agenda. But kudos to you if we're doing that because even as adults, we haven't really figured that out so much.
Jasmine: Yeah. I'm really, really impressed. And actually, I'm also impressed, Claire, that you went before Congress and testified. And so you're so young and that you've basically done something that some adults, some people even my age, would be horrified to do. So I mean, what was that like, you know, testifying in front of Congress? And why did you feel like it was so important for you to do that?
Claire: Yeah, it was a crazy couple of days because we had the walkout at both of the high schools in my district in support of Diversity Day on the Wednesday, and then we had, after school that day, our own student-led Diversity Day technically disconnected from the schools off campus, which was a great event and we had all these conversations we've been wanting to have. And then I hopped in a car to drive down to DC! But really it was 100% worth it because it really is about the conversations and just getting student voices out there. So I was so grateful to be able to represent, as you were saying, the voices of the students to these people who don't often get the chance to talk to us.
Amanda: Claire, I'm curious about something. So when you have this Diversity event, I feel like on the right they imagine it's like, this indoctrination of “everyone must think the same thing about race, gender, you know, fill in your demographic there,” but when you're ha but you're talking about having conversations.
Claire: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. We had some wonderful speakers, one from the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center, but a lot of it is just asking questions and hearing people's perspectives. And there's definitely a diversity of opinions of what people think the next steps are, and especially a diversity of experiences. I think that was one of the most important things is just taking the time to say, “How has race impacted your life? Have you thought about how racism impacted your life?” And just seeing how everyone's had these unique experiences with it.
Rachel: What do you think we are missing? In this idea of the culture wars that are dominating the news. Is there anything going on in schools that doesn't get enough coverage?
Claire: I think it really is just students' voices. That we're all here, we all have opinions about this. This is our daily life. And it's not the daily life of a lot of the people that we hear talking about this. So really just asking questions, getting to know us. In a lot of ways, we're more active and more opinionated and more ready to have these discussions than I think a lot of people take us.
Amanda: I love that you're mentioning how ready students are for these conversations, because I feel like a lot of adults say that you're not ready for these conversations, but you're here saying that you are. And I love that you mentioned, you know, listening to students. So my husband is an elected official and actually held a town hall that was only for teenagers because he wanted to hear directly from them what their biggest concerns were.
A lot of their biggest concerns at the time were about their mental health, that they felt stressed. And I remember some parents at the time doubting the stress that kids can feel. And I said, “No. Believe them when they tell you they're stressed.” Right? Believe them and listen and I don't think we do enough of that. But why do you think there are such mental health issues with young people today? Like what is going on there?
Claire: I'll say a lot of the reason I got into activism and all of that is because there was this massive mental health crisis at my school. A lot of students unfortunately did pass away. ,I went through a health class with the Ohio, what passes for the Ohio mental health curriculum, with one of those students. And I saw that somebody made that policy decision and we all lived with the results of that.
So I think there are definitely ways that we can be integrating in the curriculum, in training teachers, just more conversations about mental health. There's definitely still a stigma. And I think, yeah, you really, you have to believe the students when they come to you and tell you that it's an issue.
Jasmine: I love that we're talking about student voices, but I do think that there are adults that do wanna help. And so, you know, our listeners, a lot of times they wanna know like, how can I help? Like how do they start, what's the best place for them to start to say, I'm listening to you and I wanna help… where do I go? What do I do?
Claire: For sure. And there were definitely a ton of wonderful people who supported us in our community. And I think the best thing that any of them did was just really listen, not come in with preconceived notions of what they thought the best step was, what they thought the best strategy was. But to listen, and say, “What do you want?” And we said, “We wanna do a walkout maybe.” And they were like, “Okay, I know a place where you can do that. I can help you with logistics.” And that was, that was instrumental.
So really just any, any youth, you know, any kid, you know, just having a conversation with them, asking them, what do you need? Because especially in that position, you've got kids that maybe can't drive yet or they don't have that sort of logistics power, but they have the ideas if you're willing to listen to them.
Rachel: Thank you for that reminder. I think that's something that we… we just don't give you enough credit. And it’s like when we talk about women, suburban women - not only do we know what our issues are, but we also have a lot of ideas about how to solve them. But I think that goes for pretty much any group and young people especially. And we all need to be better at listening to you. So thank you so much.
Claire: Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely.
Amanda: Thanks Claire. You were great.
Claire: Thank you. Bye!
Amanda: I really enjoyed that discussion with Claire. I think getting the students’ perspective is so under-heard, underappreciated. We just don't hear from students as much, and we're talking about regulating what students hear and what students do and what their teachers say and what their teachers don't say. There's so much regulation in our classrooms and that really affects students. Their voices should be heard.
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the place where there's actually bipartisan support. Being a competitive country, raising children who are competitive, raising children who can compete in the 21st century. And part of that, I think, is giving them the tools they need to be successful. And until they are comfortable and until they feel safe, it's not going to be the priority.
I mean, this is unfortunately what we see in countries where they don't have, you know, the ability to, you know, where everyone can seek education, where there's not an access to healthcare. We see that in our country too, but in a very different way that a lot of people are very slow to recognize the impact that has. And they're dealing with so much more now than we did when we were that age. Look, I am guilty of this as a parent so much, and I have to check myself to say, “Yes, Rachel, you were a sixth grader once, but it was nothing like being a sixth grader now.” And I definitely have to remind myself of that. So I think everyone has to.
Amanda: And I love seeing… when you just watch students and see what they're doing and see what they're okay with, we see students here in my district that organized a Black Lives Matter rally in our little downtown. And I think a lot of parents were really shocked that there were that many kids in our district that cared enough to organize that, to show that Black Lives Matter. This was after, I think it was after George Floyd, that the kids organized this. And it's important that we see kids are standing up for other people, and I think they wanna see adults standing up for other people too.
Rachel: No, you're absolutely right. I'm, and it's just, you know, what Claire talked about, there were lots of different ideas, exchange of ideas during these, this day. It doesn't mean that everyone's like drinking Kool-Aid and thinking the same thing!
Amanda: Yes! They're allowed to have a conversation.
Rachel: Yeah. They're not going to agree on everything. They're, they're just like anyone else in society. So, you know, I'm, I'm just so proud of Claire and people like them who are able to see something, to make a difference, and to say, “We're not going to allow you to take this away from us.”
So now we are going to take a quick break and when we come back we'll have my interview with Porsche Joseph.
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Rachel: Today we are joined by a writer, activist, and former educator. Along with her husband, she's written a book called Better Than We Found It: Conversations to Help Save the World. Porsche Joseph, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem.
Porsche: Thank you for having me.
Rachel: I'm excited about this because, you know, your book covers a lot of complicated topics from gun violence to immigration, to healthcare, and although anyone can read it and get so much out of it, the book is aimed at young people in particular. How did you approach speaking to Gen Z about serious issues?
Porsche: Yeah, it's interesting that you said that anybody can read it. So Frederick, my husband, my co-author, had written a book called The Black Friend: On Being a Better White Person. And the book is targeted towards young adults. But what we found was that that approach really worked for people of all ages. You know, he had a lot of adults telling him how much they learned from his book and how the stories were really digestible.
So when we were sitting down and thinking about writing Better Than We Found It, we thought we might wanna write at the same age level so that it can actually reach a much larger audience. I think even through social media, we're seeing that some stuff Gen Z is being exposed to that myself, I, I never got the chance to be exposed to it, and so we're learning a lot. And I think it might be more normalized to have these conversations through platforms like social media. But we didn't have those tools necessarily when I was younger, so we wanna invite everybody into the conversation.
Rachel: No, I love it. Frankly, I feel like my daughter, she's at a new school and there's a heavy curriculum on so many of these issues and she's 12, but she discusses it and it's so interesting to discuss it. Not just my husband and I, like two people in their late forties, but from the perspective of a younger person. And it just brings such a fresh perspective and forces me to examine some of my thoughts. “Why do I feel this way?” And then she shares some of the things she's learning and reading about and researching and it's very helpful for everyone. So I, I think it's wonderful to bring that perspective, but also make it very relatable for everyone to read.
Porsche: Absolutely. I think that one thing that we really wanted to focus on was understanding that young people have a lot of feelings around these things and they're not wrong. And they’re activated, but a lot of times they're getting shut down by people. And so they don't have the language or some of the nuance or some of the some of the nuanced thinking around some of these subjects. And so we wanted to just give them the tools to speak to it because they're valid. They know what they're talking about, but maybe haven't necessarily, you know, been exposed to the language to go toe to toe with the 40 year old, with the people that they're sitting at tables with.
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. Well, I, I'm a little bit curious about what inspired you to write a book together with your husband Frederick. What was the process like writing a book with your spouse? I mean, you're still together, so…
Porsche: Yes. Barely after that one, but here we are.
Rachel: I was like, “wait, they're married?”
Porsche: I know! And we still went on and got married. But no, it was, it was all good. It was fun actually. Fred is a really fun person to work with. He, so kind of how it came about was he had the editor for The Black Friend and so we met with her, it was just the three of us, and we were chatting and she was like, “wow, you guys just go back and forth.” Like me and him just like debate each other, dig into things, like throw out new thoughts and, and that really is, when you get a chance to speak to us both together, that really is how our household functions.
So she was like, “it would be really interesting if you guys ever wanted to write a book together or you know, do a podcast or something.” So that was always in the back of our head. And so when we had the opportunity, Fred was like, “let's do this together because this is all of the stuff that we talk about at home.” And so that worked out that way.
But it is funny as far as styles go, Fred is super… he works hard, he works really hard, but he definitely works in his own way. So we were mostly separate, writing things, and we would come together and swap and be like, “What do you think of this? What do you think of that?” And since he had written, this was my debut book but he had two books before, he was kind of used to being in a writing groove. And so when I would get stuck and everything, he would be… I mean, the most valuable thing is that he would be really honest with me. Like, “Oh, I don't like that story. Like, that doesn't touch me. What about that time you were telling me about when you were a kid, this and that.” And I'd be like, “You know what? That works.”
That work style is like… the only person who could do that with me is my husband. He's the only one who knows all that stuff about me. So yeah, it worked out well.
Rachel: I'm happy that it worked out. And I'm happy that you wrote the book together. You, you interviewed some amazing people, including some of the people that we've interviewed on this show, like Shannon Watts and Charlotte Clymer. I won't ask you to choose a favorite, but is there an interview that really surprised you or taught you something new that comes to mind?
Porsche: Like… all of them. Hmm. One person who stands out to me is like Anton Truer, who was in the chapter about indigenous rights and Native American land. And it was mostly just because I, you know, had done research and, you know, we interviewed everyone who were subject matter experts. So we don't claim to be subject matter experts on all of these topics, but that's why we brought folks in. So some of the stuff he would say though was just striking to me because I had to reevaluate my own education, my own public school education. Even though I had done the research and you know, thought that I was well educated in certain things.
Like one thing he had mentioned was that, you know, there were about just as many Native Americans here as Europeans in Europe when they came over. And I was like, oh man. I kind of have been taught that it was like empty land for the taking. And I don't think I actually thought that, obviously we knew that there were Native Americans here, but I don't think I conceptualized the amount. We were thinking, like, overcrowding in Europe, they needed this land and there was such a vast amount, and I don't think I actually realized that I had… that I had that misunderstanding. And so there were a couple moments like that in our conversation, so that was a lovely conversation. He just is so knowledgeable. Yeah, I just learned a lot through that conversation.
I think another one was digging up a lot of research and, and having the chance to talk to folks about climate change and environmental justice. I think that we always focused on intersectionality in all of our chapters, and so for me, I definitely wanted to discuss environmental racism. That's kind of how climate change mostly relates to me, is seeing that in the communities that are affected personally, like my grandparents live in the Black Belt in Montgomery, Alabama. And I speak about, you know, the weather changes that I've seen since even being a child and visiting them to today. And so I learned a lot about others’ experiences. We interviewed Joe and Willie Lorenz, who live in Australia. So that was a very different take on how they see the effects of climate change in their own backyard. And then Mari Copeny, who had her experience being from and living in Flint.
So yeah, those are, those are conversations that stand out to me. I learned a lot. And they were just very interesting, interesting folks who had very interesting experiences that were different.
Rachel: And I think that's important that we can bring in those experts that a lot of people wouldn't really have access to unless you're just, you know, consuming copious amounts of NPR or, you know, seeking this stuff out, it's really difficult to hear these stories. It's just, it gets drowned out and it's not something that's talked about regularly or in mainstream places because they're trying to keep up with the day-to-day, but these are the bigger, long-term stories that kind of get lost. So it's really critical to hear from these experts.
You mentioned, you know, that your husband gave you editing advice and, and, you know, suggested stories to tell. You open each chapter with a story from your own life. Some of the stories are really personal, like your husband's experiences with ableism after being diagnosed with MS or your experience of your brother going to jail. Was it difficult to tell some of those stories?
Porsche: Absolutely. Especially, yeah, especially for me. I think that he kind of had gone through that struggle already with The Black Friend and Patriarchy Blues. They're both extremely personal. Right. For me, this was the first time endeavoring and, and anything like that actually. So, and I'm a very private person, so it was certainly difficult. At a certain point I think I just kind of shut off that people were going to be reading this and I was like, “I'm writing this for Fred and my editor,” cause they would be like, “Yeah, that's it.” And so I just was like, “You know what, I'll just worry about that later.”
And I know that for Fred when he wrote The Black Friend, a lot of people, you know, reached out to him and were like, “Oh my gosh, I remember that!” Or “Whatever happened to that person?” And I was at first having a little bit of panic about, oh my gosh, are people gonna be reaching out to me saying like, you know, “That was me that you wrote about”? And so I had to get over that fear though.
One thing that I learned when I was young, my mother taught me, was that everybody's going through something and everyone's going through stuff that's sometimes really similar, we're just not allowed to talk about it. And as a woman, I think with women's issues and stuff, I've definitely realized that once you do talk about it, it gives people, it allows people to feel empowered to talk about it. And that's the purpose. That's the whole purpose.
Rachel: Yeah. No, I, I completely agree. We talk about that a lot, I think, on the podcast and how empowering that can be to share your own story. The book is called Better Than We Found It. What does that mean to you? What? What is your vision for that better world?
Porsche: Right. I think that the idea that there is a vision for it in general, I think a lot of times we get caught up in feeling like stuff is kind of hopeless. And the fact is like there's change that can be made as quickly as things change and we see them change for the worse, we can try to work towards improving them, or at least all of us getting on the same page that we want that improvement.
And I think that those conversations are happening and sometimes it does feel like we're in a bubble. So that's what we really wanted to do was give people the power to have the conversations, but also activate them and let them know what can be done. So at the end of each chapter I think we reference our toolkit we have online that gives more resources and we also, you know, tell people what they can do, whether that's writing to your local representatives or supporting a specific nonprofit or seeing what work is already being done and, and guiding the readers, you know, to those groups that are doing the work.
You know, we really try to do that because I think that so often that's where it stops. It’s like, we just get really discouraged. And we still have to wake up tomorrow.
Rachel: It's true! It can be very overwhelming to think like, “well, what can I do? I mean, you know, what can I do here?” But sometimes I think the best thing, even if you can't think of anything else, you can talk about these issues with someone. You can at least, you know, educate someone. Even if, I mean, hopefully you do more, but even if you only do that, that's big too. So I think that we should lean into that and be willing to discuss it with our friends and see that even in our local communities, there are things we can do to combat these issues or educate as well.
What has been the response though? I mean to, to that the toolkit that you've given people. Have you heard from readers and from these organizations that people have, you know, availed themselves of your suggestions?
Porsche: Yeah. One thing that feels really good was that a ninth grade school teacher reached out to us the other day and sent us a picture of a stack of books they had ordered for their classroom and said, “Our classroom is all doing projects on social justice from a bunch of different topics. And so we had your book as one of our main reading tools. And one of the reasons we had it was because you also referenced other tools that you could use.”
So that made me feel really good. Cause I was like, that's kind of the purpose. Like if they are diving into these things, I know that like a lot of things that I'm interested in today began, those interests began when I was just in high school. And so if we are having teachers feel like they have a tool in their hand and that it makes it that much easier to do these projects, you know, that's all I can really ask here.
My younger brother is a high school teacher in Texas. And so you can imagine, you know, obviously the tension and the state of being a school teacher in, in Texas, and so, you know, he has our book in his classroom and has his students doing different projects. And so feels really good when it becomes very like, close like that and very personal, to know that his students are enjoying our book. And then, you know, some of them follow Fred. Fred has a pretty large platform. My stuff's all private and whatnot, but they follow Fred and they'll be like, “That's your brother-in-law?? I just read his book!” And so that feels really cool.
Rachel: Well, I will say I have your book and my daughter this week, they're doing presentations, they were assigned a social issue and then they had to do some research and make a PowerPoint presentation, et cetera. But this week they've been doing the presentation. So she's gotten to see other people’s issues, social issues. And she was looking through the book and many of them are issues that have been discussed. So I am going to, I didn't even make the connection until now. I'm gonna make the suggestion to her teacher. If she doesn't have your book, I'm actually just gonna give her a copy.
Porsche: Well, I'm sitting here smiling just cause I'm really happy that they're doing assignments like this. Like that wasn't really you know, we weren't doing that when I was young.
Rachel: No. It was, it was a growth experience for everyone in my family from varying degrees of… like, there was lots of PowerPoint and Word and stuff. And like just the idea of, you know, some of these things, it's like we can all do better and we can learn and you have to be open to learning. Right? And that's why I think this generation is so much better about things.
Well, this has just been wonderful talking to you. Before we go, we always like to ask our guests a few Rapid Fire questions. Are you ready?
Porsche: Yeah!
Rachel: Okay. What frequently banned book should be at the top of our reading list right now?
Porsche: Mm. I'll do throwback. I have a few. My favorite book, Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston. The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. It's a big banned book right now and that is also just like required reading. And I will plug my husband's book Patriarchy Blues.
Rachel: Okay. If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?
Porsche: What would my superpower be? Oh, easy. Teleportation.
Rachel: Yes. That would be mine as well. Just, it would be so efficient. What is your favorite place to go on a date night?
Porsche: Live music, a jazz show or something. Any sort of show actually, but go see some live music.
Rachel: Nice. The last question I have to ask, because she's interviewed in the book and she's one of our favorite people in the world. What is Elizabeth Warren like?
Porsche: Okay. I love this question because when we interviewed her, I got off the phone and was calling people like, “Let me tell you about this!” I was like, “Oh my God, she remembered my name!” We were engaged at that time and she was like, “how's the wedding planning going?” I was like, I have never spoken to you a day in my life. And like obviously Fred had, because Fred was working with her on her campaign, and so Fred had, you know, met her many times, like a handful of times. But she was so busy, she was meeting so many people, so I didn't have any expectation that she would remember details. Like, I can barely remember my own name some days! Let's be real, like I'm frazzled.
She just, you know, was so thoughtful and kind and made sure to stop and pause and have personal moments and ask personal questions and ask how we're doing. And she really was so genuine. And then she just also has this amazing ability to... she doesn't mess up. Like everything she does, like her public speaking…. chef's kiss. Like even on something as casual where she's like on an interview with us on a Zoom. You know, it's not gonna be shown anywhere. It's just an interview for a book. And she never even really paused to have to think about anything. She just knew. And the words came out like butter.
She was great. Like, I'm so impressed and so inspired. She's definitely one of my role models.
Rachel: Now that's actually also a superpower that I don't possess, so maybe that should be my superpower answer from now on. All right. Well that is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work?
Porsche: They can go, they can buy Better Than We Found It anywhere that books are available. And they can also visit Fred's social media. I mean, they can follow me too, I'll probably accept it, but my social media's not as exciting. But he is on Twitter and Instagram and I guess TikTok now, at Fred T Joseph and you'll see us a lot on there with our dog Stokely.
Rachel: Okay. Well we're always down for some good dog content.
So if our listeners are interested to hear from Fred Joseph about banned books, including his own, I encourage everyone to check out our interview with him on Red Wine and Blue’s banned book club series. You can find that video on YouTube and we'll include a link in the show notes.
This was so great. Thank you, Porsche, for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem.
Porsche: No, Rachel, thank you. I appreciate you having me.
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Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I loved your interview with Porssche. One of my favorite things you guys talked about, and it relates to what we were talking about with Claire, is that we don't have to talk down to kids and we can trust that they can handle information in an age appropriate way. All this uproar about not confusing kids about gender or race or sexuality is ridiculous. They're way more open-minded than adults are and they are way more prepared and wanna have these conversations.
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, you know, this weekend our daughter had been asking for a while to watch the movie Till, about Emmett Till.
Amanda: Oh, oh, it's so good.
Rachel: Yeah. You know, it's hard because she doesn't understand it the way we understand it. She simply cannot fathom that level of discrimination. She cannot fathom it. So you're, you're going from like, you're already going from a different place. It doesn't matter. People don't have to understand things the way that you understand them, to be able to start a conversation. And I'm grateful that she doesn't understand that because it means she's never experienced and it's not part of her life, but she still has to come to some… you know, I mean, we all do. We have to have a moment where you can't ignore it.
Amanda: So that, I think, is the genius of Mamie Till.
Rachel: Yeah.
Amanda: Where you saw where she made this decision, that everyone is gonna see my son and they're gonna see what he looks like. This decision is really, really important for people to actually see what was going on. This is why we're still talking about Emmett Till. This is why we have a movie, is this one decision she made and how important it was for as a mom to know… “Everyone needs to see what they did to my son, and they need to see the results of this racism.” And man, I just think we underestimate how important that decision was and what it did for conversations about race in our country.
And I think as terrible and awful as it is, like we need to see what our actions and what our policies lead to. I think we need to see children in body bags coming out of a school, and I know people will disagree with that, right. We need to see it because seeing the actual consequences of our real failure to do any policy against guns…. this is when it changes. And Mamie really changed a lot of hearts and minds by making this one decision of, “they're gonna see my son.” We need to see the real consequences of our failure to act on a lot of things. And that's how we change things.
Rachel: Yeah. So this has been a bit heavy and we are missing Jasmine because she went to do her representative Jasmine Clark work. But we did get her Toast to Joy. So we do like to end on a happier note, Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy this week?
Amanda: My Toast to Joy is it was my daughter Nora's birthday and we went on a little mommy daughter trip. And it was so wonderful just to have the time to talk with her and it was really fun having one-on-one time. Like I think, I forget how important that one-on-one time is and she… so, you know, she had her iPad with her over the weekend cuz you know, we were on a plane, of course they have their iPad. And I was actually surprised how little she was on her iPad when it was just me and her, that how much conversation we did have, you know, when we went out to dinner and to eat and just walking around. And I really, really enjoyed this one-on-one time with her. And so my toast of joy is to Nora
Rachel: Aw, happy birthday.
Amanda: And I love having some one-on-one time with my kids.
Rachel: So fun. That's really nice. I know. I love, just, Ellie, spending time with her. I mean, she's an only child, so we get a lot of one-on-one time, but when we're doing it at a place that's not home or you know, just to go out and have a meal together and hang out.
Amanda: Yeah. It's different. There was something different. Like she opened up a lot more, not that she doesn’t open up otherwise, but you just, you know, you talk cuz you start to think and, yeah. Alright, so let's hear Jasmine's Toast to Joy that she told us before she left.
Jasmine: So my Toast to Joy this week is actually that I had the opportunity to present a bill. So unfortunately the circumstances surrounding why I presented the bill were not good circumstances, one of my colleagues did have an issue and had to go to the hospital, but since the bill had a lot of my language in it, they asked me to present the bill. Although it was scheduled to only get a hearing, they actually did make a motion for it to get a vote. And so it got a vote and it passed. And so I have officially passed a bill out of committee that I did not expect to do. So it wasn't my bill, I am signed on to the bill, but I'm not the first author.
But either way, we talked about this before, like it's getting done and that's really exciting. So we probably won’t see the bill come across… well, we won't because of deadlines and stuff, until next year, 2024… but it has already crossed a major, major, major hurdle, so I'm really excited about that.
Amanda: Oh, yes.
Rachel: And my Toast to Joy this week is that I had a birthday last weekend!
Amanda: Happy birthday!
Rachel: Thank you. As I enter the last year of my forties, I'm just, I don't know, for lack of better word, blessed. Very suburban woman word to use, hashtag blessed, but that's how I feel. Just so grateful.
Amanda: Did you do anything to celebrate? Did you ride your new bike?
Rachel: I did ride my new bike! And I just had a lot of hanging out time with my family.
And I am forever reminded of the birthday three years ago during the pandemic when we got some not very great news on my birthday and my husband tried to save it, shield it from me until after my birthday, like that would've made it better. But it was like, you know, such a time of uncertainty in our lives– and everyone's life cuz it was the lockdown– but of what we were going to do and, you know, if he was gonna be able to retire, if he was gonna have to stay in the army and face a lot of hatred and everything else that was thrown at him.
So you know, it's a good reminder, always on my birthday– I guess a birthday is a perfect time for reflection on, you know, the things you've been through and that you've survived another year. But also for me, it's even more special now because it's that… just hold on. It will get better. You gotta keep working at it, it doesn't mean it's gonna get better just because, but hold on for another day, another year, and make something happen. Something different will happen.
So now I feel like ever since we had that on my 46th birthday, that it's even more special to me and I'm just so, so grateful. So I love that finally, three years later, we're living in our new house, we've moved, we’ve done all the things that I wanted then and it just wasn't the right time, because not everything can happen on the timeline that you wanted. But you just keep swimming, like Dory says. Just keep swimming, just keep moving, keep moving forward.
Amanda: Oh man. I actually heard that Wilson Phillips song “Hold On” when you were saying that. Just hold on for one more day.
Rachel: It's true! I mean, it's, it's cliche, but it's also so true.
Amanda: I mean, I love that song.
Rachel: Yeah, me too. Because it's accurate.
So thank you so much everyone for joining us today. If you're enjoying the show, it would really help us out if you could leave us a rating or a review on whatever podcast app you use. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next week at another episode of Suburban Women Problem.