All Aboard the Struggle Bus (with Dr. Andrea Bonior and Deborah Paris)

Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein.

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.

Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. Welcome back!

This week, we have Dr. Andrea Bonior on the show to talk about mental health. She's a clinical psychologist and the author of “Baggage Check,” the mental health column in the Washington Post. And let's be honest, we could all use a mental health check-in right about now. But it's not just a recent thing, even though, of course, COVID has made everything worse. We’ve a mental health crisis in this country for a long time, and I feel like we're just now finally starting to talk about.

Later on in the show, we'll get the chance to talk with child psychoanalyst, Deborah Paris, who will give us some tips on how to talk to our kids about their mental health and how to be honest with them about our mental health too.

So, let's talk about it. How are we feeling, Jasmine?

Jasmine: I’m feeling really good. Things are going well right now. I'm exhausted. Mental health-wise, I could always be doing better. You know I have my ebbs and my flows. Things are up, things are down. Right now though, things are pretty, pretty good. I have some things to celebrate. My daughter turned 13, so now I officially have all teenagers. And so, I'm celebrating that…

Rachel: Congratulations, with a question mark?

Jasmine: Yeah, that that's exactly how I feel. I've definitely had some things happening where I'm like, “am I really ready for this teenager life?” And, “am I ready to deal with that as a parent?” So…

Amanda: Bigger kids, bigger problems. And I feel like hearing that from parents of older children helps me just mentally prepare.

Rachel: I remember when I heard that for the first time. And I was like, “you’ve forgotten what it's like to be in this…

Amanda:  Three-nager.

Raachel:  Yes. The three-nager. And I'm so looking forward to talking to Dr. Paris, because last week was a doozy. It was you know, really dealing with a lot of things with my child, and man, you know, dealing with their disappointment is pretty much the worst feeling in the world.

It's hard, especially when your dealing with so much yourself. You know, we can recognize a mental health crisis in someone else, it’s so much easier if it's our friends, or our children, even our spouse. It's so much easier to say it, to name it, to offer suggestions and so much harder to do it for ourselves.

And I'll just be really honest, yesterday a friend of mine actually told me that she thought I needed to talk to someone. It's important that we have those friends and people in our life that can be honest with us about where they think that we are.

Amanda: I think a lot of times I don't even realize when I get to that point, right? When I'm at the point where it is affecting me. So we have a pond and fish and I like to feed these fish. And we also have feral cats that we feed, and I like to feed them. And I remember one day I was feeding them, and I'm like grumbling, and I'm doing it begrudgingly and complaining about it. Like, “I have to get this done and this done.” And I’m feeding these fish and their cute little sucker mouths came up and ate the food. I remember having this thought, “why am I complaining about this?” Like, I like this, I enjoy this. Why am I complaining? 

And I think that's kind of what I do, where I will grumble and complain about like, you know, bath time or whatever is on my plate. And then sometimes I just stop and almost laugh at myself. Like. I am not enjoying the things that I actually do enjoy because I'm thinking about, you know, the weight of all of these other decisions. And I kind of, I think I'll let it get to the point where I am, you know, cranky and crabby and I'm short with people until I realized like, no, you love your children and your husband, you love ––  I actually love bath time. It's so fun. And it's soothing to just sit there and watch them. 

And I'm like, why am I complaining about this? I love this.

Rachel: Well, we just don't ask herself these questions. We don't have a checklist that we're constantly going through because we have to, you know, we just live our lives and we get busy living our lives and we don't stop to, I guess, take stock.

You know, there was an op-ed recently by Venus Williams in the New York Times, and it was really good. There’s just this one excerpt I'd like to share. “It doesn't matter who you are, you need support. You can't divorce mental health from anything you do. It impacts your physical well-being, your decision-making, your ability to cope with difficult moments.”

And I think moms juggling, like spinning all the plates, we, you know, really uniquely understand that. Because you can't divorce it. It's not like I'm going to switch off this light now and then go into this other room. It just doesn't work that way. But you know, she also talks about… only about half the people in the United States who need mental health are able to get the assistance that they need.

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, that's an important point. So I think sometimes I rely on my friends too much for my ranting and my anger. And I feel sometimes they don't tell me because they're very kind friends, but I feel like I was a big “Sex and the City” watcher, and there was an episode once where Carrie was like complaining to her friends, and her friends were like, “we are not your free mental health care. You need to see someone.”

And I feel I can get where my friends probably should tell me this, where like, “you need to start ranting to someone other than us.” So I'm grateful for the friends that let me rant, but we're also reading about, you know, stuff that really shouldn't be put on our plates.

Like all those spinning plates all the time happening… Women especially are just expected to grin and bear it. And we're supposed to be childcare when there isn't childcare or it's not affordable. We're supposed to be the caretaker when there isn't healthcare or it's not affordable. And we need our policymakers right now, probably more than ever, to step up and fill those holes.

Jasmine: As a policy maker, I can say that I 100% agree with you. And I can say that sitting in the chamber and the state Capitol, you know, we use the word mental health all the time. I'm like, “yes, y'all we all agree on this. Can we actually do something?” And it's the do something part that all of a sudden people start to get quiet.

I mean, for example, in Georgia, the number one provider of mental health care in our state is our prison system.

Rachel: Wow.

Jasmine: So right now, people do not have access to mental health care, but if you commit a crime and you go to prison, then you have access to your meds and you have access to a psychiatrist and you have access to mental health care that you could not get on the streets.

And so we want to do things as simple as expanding access to healthcare. And the thing about it is –– and I've spoken to mental health experts, they say that that would go a long way in getting people access to care. But we also have to realize that even people with insurance sometimes cannot afford mental health care. Copays don't pay for it. Your insurance doesn't cover it, or if it does cover it, the copay is ridiculously high compared to the copay if you have the sniffles.

Amanda: Those are real costs, right? They prevent people from getting, you know, mental health. So I think there's are some policies we could do to take care of those complications that we have and to make it easier.

And I think there's also costs not just money-wise, but with stigma. So in a lot of, especially certain industries, if you think about the military, I know as one, police are another, where if you go see a mental health provider and your employer finds out, there's a stigma associated with that that actually could risk your career.

We should normally going to see mental health professionals. Like of course you should see one regularly just to check in on how are you doing, dealing with the stress you're dealing with.

Jasmine: And it’s not just in your job. So there is stigma when it comes to jobs, but also in the community it is becoming more acceptable. Before, for a really long time in the Black community –– and I use that term loosely because we're not a monolith –– but in the Black community seeking mental health care just was not seen as something that we did. And especially those in the church, in the Black church, it was seen as kind of a lack of faith. People were just like, “you're just not praying hard enough,” or “you're not listening to what God is telling you and that's why you are dealing with this turmoil in your life.”

And I think that now we have to recognize that you can have faith and still use the tools of science and go out and seek help if that is really what you need.

Rachel: And faith counselors exist! You know, I mean, so like, if this is important to you –– and I get it if it is –– reach out, but don't suffer because of the stigma. And you know, I'm so glad you're talking about it, Jasmine, because I think it's really important.

Amanda: You know, I was always taught, “pray as if everything depended on God, act as if everything depends on you.” Right? And I think that's where, regardless of your faith, if you are a policymaker who is a person of faith, right? That's how you should be acting. You should be acting as if everything depends on you. And that includes those mental health issues. And we need to realize there's severe cracks in our system, right? When mental health is tied to healthcare and we don't have universal healthcare, man, that's a massive crack.

And when that healthcare is tied to an employer, right? Now you have an even larger crack. 

Rachel: Alright. Let's bring in an expert in child psychology to give us a better idea of how we might talk about this stuff with our children. Deborah Paris is a child psychoanalyst in Ohio, and she also happens to be the mother-in-law of Katie Paris, the founder of Red Wine and Blue.

Debby, welcome to the podcast!

Debby: Which one of those is the better recommendation, right?

Jasmine: I think they're both awesome.

Rachel: Debby, last week, as I said earlier on the podcast, is a challenging week for my daughter. It brought on a huge conversation, and one of the things that I think I recognized in what she was telling me is she's having a hard time connecting with her teacher because we thankfully have a mask mandate and everyone's wearing masks. But she is an expressive person and has a huge personality… a very expressive personality, I should say. So while we don't have an issue of bullying because of wearing masks or not wearing masks… wearing masks has its own kind of issues. What would you say to something like that?

Debby: Like any of us, when we're feeling a lot of pressure about something, any straw can break the camel’s back.So one little thing can lead to the big things. So it's sort of like a crisis and an opportunity. What's so nice is that the flood gates opened and she could talk to you about it. Anything that can be talked about can be managed. That's the biggest thing I can tell any parent out there. It's not that we can control all these difficult things that are happening, we can't unmask the teacher and our kids so that they can have more of a connection. But we can talk about what it feels like. 

And also the time helps, right? In terms of the specifics of what your daughter is going through, she will get to know her teacher and her teacher will get to know her through other means. And we talk about verbal expression. Sometimes verbal expression is in words and sometimes verbal expression is in writing. I would say, why doesn't she write your teacher a note about how this feels?

Rachel: Oh, I love that!

Debby: Because what we all want is to feel heard and understood, and there are lots of ways of making that happen.

My other thing is, you know, a conversation with a kid is never: you say something and then they say something and then you say something. It’s usually you say something and then you either get some kind of horrible behavior in response or silence for three weeks. And this happens while they're in the tub or in the shower, or, you know, after dinner or going to bed, it's often when they're going to bed to delay bedtime, you get your response.

So if you look at it as a sort of long continuum, that's actually more like jagged continuum in terms of conversations, it makes everything less loaded. You've got lots of time to sort these things out.

Amanda: I love that you talked about it. Like a little thing can be the final straw. I always think about it's like a bucket, right? And so it might not be that one drop of water that was that big, but when their bucket is full, it spills over. And I was kind of thinking as moms, we might take on so much on ourselves of trying to take on, you know, the mental load of everything that's going on. And we want our children not to have to deal with these mental stresses that I think…  almost sometimes we can not realize or discount the stress our kids are going through.

You know, I was never in a pandemic as a, as a child. Do you think parents can sometimes discount it? And how are the best ways that parents can kind of check in to see what's going on?

Debby: Well, I think then when we discount something, it's often because it's too much to deal with. So it's our own protective mechanism. We all have protective mechanisms, so we sort of want to shrink it down to size so that it doesn't feel so huge and horrible and overwhelming.

For all of us, this is a huge thing that we haven't gone through before. On the other hand, I think that, um, development is still happening for children and as parents, we always feel like somehow, if we do it right, it'll come out right. Haha, good luck everybody! We do our best and a lot of times it does come out right, but a lot of times things happen that make the outcome come out exactly right. So it's good to give ourselves a pass and it's good to give our kids a pass that no one piece of experience indicates the long term outcome. It's just a piece of experience. 

There’s sort of a secret decoder ring thing as a parent. If you want to know how the kid feels, see how they're getting you to feel.

Amanda: Oh… that was juicy!

Jasmine: Yeah, really!

Rachel: I'm going to have to unpack that for a few hours today.

Debby: It's almost always true. Not always true, but often it is. And that children show before they tell, you know, show and tell is what we're trying to switch it to a verbal expression from a showing thing.

But you look at behavior as meaning. So if you look at the behavior and if you look at how it's getting you to feel, it truly does give you access to something that's helpful to both you and your kid.

Amanda: One of my most, I hope, important things that I want to teach my children is empathy. So we recently were at the zoo, mostly outdoors, but some of the enclosures are inside and the zoo asked you to wear a mask when you're inside the enclosures.

And my four year old noticed that not everyone was wearing a mask inside the enclosure and four year olds, of course don’t filter or, you know, make sure that they whisper, she doesn't know how to whisper. And so she loudly asks, “Mommy, why are they not wearing their masks?” And I quickly kind of felt this opposition to, how do I teach her empathy and understanding, but also teach her how we should also be wearing a mask to protect people while not making this person feel bad?

How should we approach, you know, when, whether it's not wearing a mask or whatever they happen to notice like that?

Jasmine: I love it sometimes. I'm like, thank you. I'm glad you said it.

Debby: You know, I think we don't want to mix up two things. I don't think we want to mix up empathy, which we're trying to help children with, and their sense of right and wrong, which to a four year old is really beginning to develop inside them. Between the ages of four and like eight, conscience development is happening about what's right and wrong and good and bad, not what we're saying, but what they're saying to themselves. The empathy piece, I think we should teach empathy by how we're empathetic towards our children.

It's sort of like if you're kind of your children, they pass it on. If you understand your children, they pass it on. It's how they breathe the air they're growing up. But I'd say the issue around the masks, and what you're raising is the issue so many people are dealing with, we want to be empathetic and kind, and nice people, but we have feelings about people not wearing masks because they're making a choice that they're not paying the price for. Somebody else is paying the price for.

So the question is, what do you do with your anger. Because they are doing something that we think is wrong. The best you can say is that isn't the choice we make. We're making a choice to keep people safe. They must have their own reasons, but we do things the way we think it's right to do.

Children love “in our family, this is how we do things.” So when you say “in our family, we wear masks because we think this is a way of keeping you safe and other people safe. I don't know why they're not wearing a mask, that's their family issue.” You know, we're not answering the question in terms of our kindness to the world, which we want, we're answering the question in terms of what is their real question: “Am I doing the right thing or the wrong thing? Are they doing the right thing or the wrong thing?”

Jasmine: I have a 13 year old who asks the same question when we go places and she's just like, “Mom, why are these people not doing what it takes?” You know, she went to our school board meeting with me when I spoke. And when I spoke about masks and vaccines and people were heckling me and she was just like, “Mom, I just don't understand why adults are trying to tell us to not wear masks so that we can stay in school. I don't understand these things.”

She's 13 now. And she knows how to whisper. But she still has that inner turmoil of not understanding why the adults in the room don't seem to be following the rules.

Debby: First of all, I got to give both your kids a lot of credit, they're asking the right question, but I think what you can say to a 13 year old is, “”ook, we don't understand all of why they're doing it. You're right. It doesn't make sense. You're absolutely right. But they must have some emotional reason that's getting in their way of doing something that's a good thing to do.” Which I think is as close as you can get to, to helping the empathetic and understanding piece go forward because after all aren't we all struggling with that question?

Amanda: Oh, I think that's such a good point because I think a lot of what the Republican party does and the policies they enact are because they are scared and they want me to be scared too.

Debby: Want to know how they feel, see how they get you to feel. What's very hard is when we're overwhelmed, when we're scared, when we've had it, we don't get to dump those feelings on the kids.

Not that we don't, so, okay let's be honest. You know, sometimes we just have a day. We try not to—

Rachel: Thank you for that caveat. 

Debby: Oh, yeah, I figure if we get it right 50% of the time, we're really getting an A+, okay? But what we're shooting for is to be protective of our children. And when we can't, when we have a bad day, when we fall apart, when we pick a fight, when whatever, that’s life. But you go back and you acknowledge it when you talk about it and you sort it out.

“I was having a bad day. I really got mad. I couldn't do that.” You know, “I told you to get off the screen too loudly,” you know, whatever. That’s  just being human, but that also is –– back to the empathy question –– it helps them have empathy that you're a person and they're a person and you can use something that isn't perfect.

That's okay. But you can talk about it and acknowledge it, and that makes it much better.

Rachel: Dr Deb, I really feel like you should teach a online parenting class for us to all do regularly.

Debby: I love talking to parents. 

Rachel: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was amazing. I feel like I did just attend a really great parenting class and I think it's always good to check in. We feel like we're managing pretty well, but I think we could also always use some outside advice on some of these issues. So thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Debby: Thank you for having me. Take care. Bye-bye.

Rachel: After the break, I'll be joined by another mental health expert, Dr. Andrea Bonior. Dr. Andrea is a clinical psychologist, the author of Detox Your Thoughts, and a frequent CNN contributor. Stick around for that interview coming up after the break.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today is clinical psychologist and author of Detox Your Thought, Quit Negative Self-Talk for Good and Discover the Life You've Always Wanted. She is the voice behind “Baggage Check,” the mental health advice column in the Washington Post –– I'm a huge fan –– and she contributes frequently to CNN. Dr. Andrea Bonior, welcome to the Suburban Women Problem.

Dr. Andrea Bonior: Thanks for having me.

Rachel: You know, obviously this is a difficult time for everyone's mental health, between the pandemic and politics and life, climate change is rearing its ugly head always this time of year, and just everything in the news. What are some signs that we can look out for that we really need to take a break and engage in some self-care, stat?

Andrea: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it's so true that right now, even what's normal for people is probably not the typical normal. So like it's normal to feel kind of upset right now, but some signs that maybe it's turning into something a little too much that maybe some professional support might be needed is that it's really getting in the way of your daily functioning.

This is how we always think of disruptions to our daily life, you know, is it ruining your appetite so much that you're not eating? Is it making you fight with your partner so much because you're so irritable that your relationship is eroding? Are you just so unfocused at work because you're so anxious or tired or exhausted that you're really not doing the job that you were hired to do and you're worried about getting fired.

You know, a lot of times what we're seeing right now is really physical stuff. And people might go to their physician and say, you know, “I'm having stomach issues,” “I'm having headaches.” Or, “I just can't feel well rested” or even rashes and hair loss I'm hearing about. And it turns out that a lot of it is this chronic anxiety that we're dealing with.

So the key is to really think about, “am I managing in such a way that my daily life is doing okay, or are things really starting to fall through the cracks?” But honestly, I would urge everybody to consider some support right now, even if you feel like you're managing okay. Because I think what happens is a lot of us really are flying by the seat of our pants, we’re white knuckling it and it looks like we're getting by, and we're falling apart inside.

So even sometimes when you're functioning on the surface, you might need a little bit more support. And I think it's important to consider that.

Rachel: I feel like you're talking directly to me. When my husband's book came out in early August, I actually got shingles, which was definitely a physical manifestation of the anxiety and everything that I had going on. And it was a nice check for me to really, you know, evaluate things. So sometimes, especially if you're older, life can just bring you to that place. But if I had taken the time to do it beforehand, that probably would have been, you know, ideal.

Andrea: Yeah, you know, just as a side note, shingles is really skyrocketing among middle-aged and even younger women.

Rachel: That’s what my dermatologist told me, a hundred percent. So I, you know, it's hard to read the news sometimes. I mean, a lot of the time. In fact, I recently took a break from the news for Rosh Hashanah. It was awesome, but it's also important to stay informed and engaged. It's not something that I can step away from forever.

So do you have any advice for how we can continue to pay attention to issues we care about while still prioritizing our mental health? My husband often says that I like will sometimes start the day at a 10 and he would prefer that I didn't do that. But how?

Andrea: Yeah, it's really tough because sometimes we feel like if we're away from the news too much, it raises our anxiety even more.

So you have to find that balance, but it comes down to setting limits and sticking to them. Because that gives you a sense of control. So you have to do some soul searching about what a reasonable amount of media consumption is for you. And the key is not exactly how much that is. The key is, “can I stick to it so that I don't feel like things are sort of spiraling?” And maybe sometimes you make exceptions, you know, there's hurricane coverage, whatever, but in general, we really need to stick to that and create some oasis during the day where you absolutely are going to take a break. I really do encourage people not to go to the phone on their nightstand first thing in the morning, because a lot of times that does just start the cycle of spiraling. So just saying, “I'm going to take 10 minutes,” “I'm going to brush my teeth,” “I'm going to do some stretches,” “I'm going to set an intention for the day,” and then maybe I'll start scrolling, but that 10 minutes really makes a difference. So setting the boundaries, saying, you know, “I'm not going to watch TV after 10,” or “I'm not going to bring my phone into bed after 11:15” or whatever it is, but also setting those periods of day that are untouched by technology.

Because that way we can at least have some control over it and you can realistically get what you need to get to stay informed probably in a much shorter time than we're actually spending. 

Rachel: Absolutely, yes. You know, we're just so burned out on caring about COVID—I mean, I know I am—but it's not done with us and you know, we can't just flip a switch, although that'd be nice. What advice do you have about, you know, coping with a pandemic, 18 months on?

Andrea: Yeah. 

Rachel: Do we, do we need to think about it differently now than last year? I mean, is it okay to evolve I guess, but still remain concerned?

Andrea: I think we do have to think about it differently, and it was never really a marathon because marathons have clear ending points, right? Every time people would say that I was like, “are you kidding? I wouldn't sign up for a race where there's no finish line in sight. And no one knows when it is.” We really have to think about incorporating it into our life permanently. I'm not an epidemiologist in saying, “Oh, we'll still be, you know, doing X, Y, and Z in five years.”

But I think from a mental health perspective, we no longer, it's not serving us to think, “Oh, when this is over, then I'll go finally on vacation,” or “I'll do X.” You know, we have to really think right here right now. “What matters to me? What are my values?” And the way things are, with all the limitations and uncertainty, “how can I find some joy and live true to my values right here?”

“I'm not going to put it off. I'm not going to keep thinking well, by next spring,” such and such. “No, I need to realize that these disruptions are not in our control anymore,” and we need to really be able to predict the unpredictable in order to have a sense of control. Because I do think a lot of people now are feeling whiplash.

They feel like they got some hope in the spring and life started to feel okay, and now it's uncertain and scary again, and it's very discouraging. And I think we need to reckon with the fact that maybe we got a little bit all or none. And we thought that, you know, the Hot Vax Summer was going to just totally turn us back to life as we knew it before. The reality is that we need to find a way to live with these disruptions in a meaningful, purposeful way right now.

Rachel: I love that. I absolutely love it. My family has really struggled with this, as I think a lot of families have… what's the best way to handle it? I think you have to make that determination yourself, and there's a lot of factors, and you have to tune out all the other noise. Because everyone has an opinion and they're very willing to share it with you, even though it's not so helpful to hear it all the time. I do think that's fabulous. 

Right now, you know, it seems like a lot of people just don't see reality the same way as us. I used to talk about this before and now it's even bigger, a bigger deal. We have to deal with people online and sometimes, you know, even friends and family members who claimed that COVID is not a big deal, that masks don't work, that climate change isn't real, that Donald Trump won, that the earth is flat… You know, what do we do with that cognitive dissonance and anger? Because sometimes it does spur you to anger.

Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we need to normalize the anger. I don't think it does any good to feel guilty about the anger or to make it fit, you know, have us feel like we shouldn't be angry. So, I think the important thing here is to understand our limitations and to channel the anger into action, where we can control certain things. Because you know, okay, maybe you're not going to change your Uncle Frank's mind.

And so what can you control? You can't change his mind, but you can control how often his nonsense comes across your social media feed. And you can censor that, right? Maybe you're not going to make a dent in the huge portion of people in the country who believe X, Y, or Z, or who are refusing to wear masks or whatever, but maybe you can have a meaningful conversation with a neighbor who sees a little bit differently from you and find some common ground and nourish that relationship and get back to basics.

And so it's all about accepting the limitations, because if we wallow in the fact that things feel so huge, then we're not going to make the tiny differences that actually can snowball into something bigger and we're going to feel miserable. You know, I think we all learned that that one vote matters, for instance. You know, we shouldn't stay home and not vote because we think that our one vote matters. But I think we've let go of that mentality when it comes to having dialogues, having individual conversations. And the truth is, you know, we can't change the social media algorithms that are making people really, really misinformed, but we can cultivate relationships that we are proud of and where we have real conversations.

And we can also control how much exposure to the nonsense we get when it's driving us bananas, quite frankly.

Rachel: All of that I find it very… that's really good advice. And I think that's really relatable. And my husband is so good at this. And I love him for that, that he is able to talk to just about anyone like this. It's a little harder now, because he's a little bit more recognized, but he's taught me so much in that regard. And even our neighbors, we have a lot of Trumpy neighbors and they know everything, but he still goes out of his way to talk to them just to be a human. And I know for him, our feelings and care for them has never changed.

Andrea: It is really hard, honestly. Sorry, I just was thinking how that's kind of the gift that comes with being a therapist, is we get to see the insides of people that maybe on the surface we would have been like, “Wow, this person is so different,” or, “Oh my goodness, this is dysfunctional.” But then we get to see them as a human being and we realize that everybody's got that humanity within them somewhere.

Rachel: Well, that's interesting. Because you know, there seems to be a type of person that is particularly susceptible to the right wing indoctrination and you know, that's, I think, depressed men.

Andrea: Yeah.

Rachel: We see it in young, you know, incels being radicalized and older men joining militia groups. Why do you think it's been so effective for the alt-right to prey upon men who may be struggling with their mental state, even a mental state that the world doesn't see on a day-to-day basis, but it's a little bit more fragile than it might be on the inside, as you said, right?

Andrea: Yeah. I think there are several factors. One is loneliness, right?  When we really look at society, there has been a breakdown in a sense of community. There has been more isolation, places that have been particularly hard hit economically. We're dealing with a ton of loneliness and despondency and hopelessness. And I think what some of these communities in the alt right offers.. it’s strange to refer to them as communities, but that's exactly what they offer, or certain conspiracy theories, they offer a sense of being part of something, being part of something greater than yourself.

And I think with young men in particular, we have failed them in certain ways. We have watched the breakdown of communities, and we have not encouraged them to value emotional connections and friendships and we make fun of it. “Oh, a bromance.” Oh, you know, “male bonding.” Men need friendship and emotionally nourishing relationships just as much as other people. And I think we don't encourage it in our culture. And the epidemic of loneliness is really skyrocketing. I feel comfortable calling it an epidemic and it has all kinds of health problems. And I think it's hurt that community particularly hard. 

And they're afraid. Right? I think our culture has sort of, you know, made them feel like things are being taken from them. And that the life as they thought that they were going to be able to expect has been taken from them. And in certain ways, you know, you can take that deeper and say it has, they can't necessarily expect with just a high school degree to get a job that, you know, raises a family. And they're scared. 

And I think one thing that the alt-right has done is been able to harness that fear into blame and into scapegoating other marginalized groups. And that's what they've capitalized on. And so these people feel part of something. “I'm on the team against this other group. And  that gives me a sense of purpose” because they might be feeling really aimless. And it's a tragic situation because I only imagine it getting worse if we don't find ways to help these people develop meaningful nourishing relationships.

Rachel: I literally just had this conversation with a friend this past weekend that I do think it's… it does give a sense of belonging. And I think a lot of people, um, are really craving that these days.

You wrote a book called The Friendship Fix about how the importance of friendships in our lives. In this age of social distancing, how can we keep those relationships strong?

Andrea: Yeah. Friendship is so important in people's lives. It's a real passion of mine because it gets the short stick, I think. And I think we're so used to talking about family and romantic relationships and parenting as a culture, we don't know what to do about friendship.

But I think the pandemic has shown us how important community and friendship is. So I say, you know, start small, use the technology in your favor. Like maybe you haven't talked to that, you know, former best friend in a while because you can't fit in a big phone call. Well, maybe you can send her something funny over text that isn't just, you know, some silly meme that she might not like, but really helps you connect. “I thought of you, I thought of this memory.” 

You know, also making a ritual I think is important. So many people don't have time to keep up with their friends, that it actually becomes very helpful to say, “Hey, the third Saturday of every month, let’s have a standing call” or, you know, “Every Friday when I'm waiting in the carpool line, I'm going to just, you know, send you a text and check in about how your week went,” or something like that. Ritualize it so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle. 

And then, you know, finally too, treat it like a priority, right? So many of us, we let our friendships fall. I think, especially as women, we think it's selfish. Like, “oh, I can't go to that brunch because X, Y, and Z,: my kids, my dog, my parents, my job.” In reality, if we're parents, we're actually modeling really good behavior by valuing our friends, we're teaching our kids that relationships matter. We're teaching them that we're more than just their parents. And also we're teaching them that the stress relief that comes from spending time with people we enjoy is really, really good for our bodies and our brains.

Rachel: Yeah, definitely. You wrote a column earlier this year about how our obsession with happiness is bad for our children. Do you have any advice? Sorry. We had a, we had a big moment in the –– yesterday –– in the Vindman household of not making safety patrol. 

Andrea: Ah, okay. That's a big deal.

Rachel: So do you have any advice on modeling self-care? How do we know the difference between looking on the bright side and toxic positivity?

Andrea: Yeah. I mean, this is the challenge of parenting in a nutshell, right? “How do I equip my kids to manage negative feelings, but also help them feel better in a quick way, because I hate to see them suffer,” right? 

So I think the key is first of all, giving them language to talk about feelings. So many of us inadvertently raise our children to be afraid of feeling sad or mad. “Oh, don't be… oh, don't cry. Oh, you're okay.” You know, we start that early on. “Oh, you're okay.” It's like, who are we to say what are the kids feeling? But more importantly, they shouldn't be afraid of feeling not okay. So give the kids language by modeling that. “I had a stressful day today. I was worried about something.”

Obviously you're not going to put the weight of the world on them when they're three years old, but just modeling it. “You know what, and I had a cup of tea, and I took a deep breath and I wrote down some ways that I could make this problem better, and I felt better.” Or, you know, “I'm feeling really sad. I miss your grandmother, and I haven't been able to see her because of the pandemic.” You know, “Are you feeling sad about anything?” And you know, “Sometimes when I feel sad, it helps to talk about it. Does it feel better talking about it?” Giving them language is very empowering. And I feel like we avoid this.

We don't want our kids to feel sad or scared or mad. We want it to go away. So we inadvertently don't give them the vocabulary to talk about it, which in turn makes them more afraid of feeling that way, which makes them feel worse when they have those feelings. So we really want to model the idea that life comes with all kinds of feelings. It comes with big feelings. It comes with hard feelings, embarrassing feelings, awkward feelings. And we can't stuff those feelings because that's not the way to manage them. Feelings will pass if we can let ourselves feel them and they do their job that way. And so modeling that, you know… “life is big and intense and sometimes hard and I'm here for it. I'm engaged with it.” And that's what we can model for our kids.

Rachel: Thank you for steering so much wisdom with us today. This is great. I feel like I've been to a therapy session… but no therapy session ends in our fun rapid fire question part, but ours is. So are you ready?

Andrea: I am ready! 

Rachel: You consult with authors and screenwriters on the psychology of their characters, which is so interesting. What is one consulting project that was really exciting for you?

Andrea: Yeah. You know, it was a murder mystery novel, and it was really riveting! And then I found myself saying, okay, I know the changes that should be made for psychological accuracy, but maybe.. maybe they're going to wreck the plot. And so maybe I just want to keep this inaccurate cause it's a really, really good murder mystery.

Rachel: I love a good murder mystery. What is the worst mental health advice you ever heard someone give?

Andrea: Probably saying, “calm down,” right? Especially when the person themselves is not calm. I always joke with people that that's probably the least effective anti-anxiety strategy in the world is to just say calm down because it invalidates the person's feelings.

Andrea: Could you just go back and say “Alex Vindman”, and then what you just said? Okay. Sorry. Um, I'll just play it for him. It's fine. It is Saturday night. What are you drinking?

Andrea: Oh, man. Some cheapo too-sweet wine that somebody's going to make fun of me about.

Rachel: That's great. That's great. What is your favorite self-care activity when you know that you need some self-care?

Andrea: I love just laughing. Right? So much of the work that I do veers towards the serious. So I love putting on something silly or going to stand up comedy –– virtually or whatever –– and just laughing until I can't stop.

Rachel: What TV character do you most want to send a therapy?

Andrea: Oh, wow. This is great. Well, I just finished the White Lotus. Can I send the entire cast of characters said therapy? Wow. That was intense. But I would say maybe Armond from the White Lotus or Belinda from the White Lotus. I would love to have seen them get the help they needed.

Rachel: Okay, well, that is the end of our rapid-fire questions. Where can we find more about you and your work online?

Andrea: Sure, detoxyourthoughts.com is my website. It's got all kinds of information about the work I do and the book. I'm also on social media, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter as @DrAndreaBonior with “Dr” as doctor.

Rachel: Okay. Thank you so much, Dr. Bonier for joining us today to share your wisdom on the Suburban Women Problem.

Andrea: And thank you again for having me.

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I really enjoyed your interview with Dr. Andrea. For me, I think politics can seem like it's diametrically opposed to maintaining mental health, especially for women, and just having the conversation, I think helps on so many levels.

Rachel: Yeah, she was great. I think, you know, she just gave so many wonderful tips that we can use in our everyday life. And, you know, stay plugged in, but you don't have to inundate yourself, put boundaries on that, you know, so that you don't have to be at saturation point all the time. And actually when you do that, it makes… it helps you be able to take it in, in a more meaningful way and hopefully be a little bit more discerning about what is worth your time and what probably isn't –– what's meant to just distract you and rattle you. I'm talking to myself, not to you guys, by the way.

So, um, I think this is a great day for a Toast to Joy because we need to just celebrate those small victories. So Jasmine, what's your Toast to Joy this week?

Jasmine: My Toast to Joy is I am now officially a mom of two teenagers. My daughter's birthday was Monday and she turned 13, and this is a kid that loves her birthday. Like she starts planning her birthday at the turn of the year. Um, and so we wanted to do something big, but also we are still in the middle of a pandemic. So I was very mindful of that. So I ended up having an outdoor movie party in our backyard.

Rachel: Oh fun!

Jasmine: She had a few friends over, they watched a movie, watched… well not really. They mostly just talked through the whole movie. I was like, “I could've put anything on this movie screen. Y'all did not care.” 

Amanda: Jasmine’s like, “Down in front, be quiet, I’m trying to listen!”

Jasmine: Like is this how you all act in a movie theater? But anyway, so when she had a blast and then, um, on Sunday she got to do a photo shoot, that was what she wanted for her birthday. And so we, it was a good weekend. It was definitely good for my mental health.

Amanda: Oh, that sounds amazing. And the pictures look awesome.

Jasmine: Oh, thank you. Uh, so Amanda, what's your Toast to Joy this week?

Amanda: So my Toast to Joy is to different perspectives and different points of view. So I'm guest lecturing for a colleague in a different department, I’ve been asked by a number of different departments to guest lecture. And it is really one of my favorite things to do is to interact with students who aren't economists and talking to someone who has a different perspective –– and especially that disagrees with me –– is just always the most exciting thing for me. So my Toast to Joy today is to different perspectives and different points of view.

Rachel: It's hard to do that today. I mean, you know, it's really hard to get a different perspective on almost anything. I hope we do that on this podcast. It's really… I hope that we're bringing people that.

Amanda: Yeah. I feel like people don't know –– people appreciate the different perspective. Like, I'm more interested in you disagreeing with me. Like this is like sometimes how I make friends, is I just start arguments with people and then we, you know, continue to talk and then become friends. Like, this is how I like… but I feel like it is harder to do because people are less willing to have that conversation.

Amanda: All right. Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy?

Rachel: Well, my Toast to Joy this week is, um, but I survived last week.

Amanda: Woo! Celebration emoji!

Jasmine: Small victories, small victories.

Rachel: It was a rough parenting week, as I've said. Um, but it was hard, but then it led to some good things also. And, um, like Dr. Deb said, my daughter's time to talk is in the morning. As soon as she wakes up, she thinks about things. I think… I don't know if she's thinking about them while she's sleeping, I'm not sure, but she's always like been the child who wakes up with lots of ideas and lots of thoughts and things to say. 

It gave me hope, again, that we'll be able to ride out those waves. And it doesn't mean that it's always going to be easy and smooth sailing, but that she feels comfortable expressing her feelings to me was just super meaningful. So yeah, to parenting! 

So thank you so much to everyone for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a rating and review, and we'll see you again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.