You Are Not Alone: Postpartum Pain (Hayden Panettiere recap)

and have postpartum depression at the same time. To hello this episode, listen. This episode was heavy, heavy, but necessary. Today's episode, we're gonna talk about postpartum co morbidity, meaning that after giving birth, mothers can suffer from different types of mental illness at the same time. So more than one co morbidity means more than one. So having postpartum depression and anxiety simultaneously would be an example of having

a co morbidity. So I just want to say that because we use the word, we try to educate ourselves here at Let's Red Table that and we want to help the listeners also be educated. Right now. Yeah, absolutely, we want to help people change the language as well as their perspective, or just be reintroduced to a perspective you hadn't truly considered. One of the things like listening

to Hayden. In this episode, she shared that having gone through so many emotions in that way led her to just do something easy, right, kind of relying on that substance of alcohol when she got home because she just didn't have the energy to do anything else. And I think there's so many people who relate to that, especially women. We get home and we have a glass of wine and we just say we're relaxing. But I need some people to know that that one glass can turn into

some other things for some other people. Well, if you're already suffering with some other comorbidities, come on, let's use this. You have some co morbidities. You know that self diagnosing, self medicating oftentimes go hand in hand. I thought Hayden

was brave. I just want you to know that Carl Bravery is so underrated because people don't understand you're not just gonna show up at somebody's house first of all, sit at their table and then be recorded sharing your most intimate, like most, painful, vulnerable, I don't know what other word to you, lowest of the low, lowest point. She even said that she was like in the fetal position when she finally even herself acknowledged it. Not everyone

wants to relive that. We've all had our lowest point, but not many people come back to relive it again. So again, thank you for sharing, Gammy, thank you for being so willing to talk about this. And then can we talk about Kelly Osborne and her baby love, her best wishes to you. I was so excited to see her Willow. We know you're on tour rock it out well right, but we love to see the guests come to the table again. It just shows how universal the

show is. This transcends across just the Smith family, so I love that that we can continue to share. Now it's time to share what our online Red Tabletop community has to say about this episode. I really, Brooks says, I feel so sad for her. That little girl needs her mom in her life. I appreciate that Jada and gam gave her a safe, open and compassionate space to tell her story. Yes, I agree, mm hmm. That's so important.

Tracy Turner great first name there. Tracy said, what if instead of assuming the worst, we gave each other the grace and assume we're all doing our best every day. That's important. It's important. Another comment says, so glad that she spoke out about this. So many people go through this, and it's so good to know that you are not alone. So thank you for your avery. Hayden. Thank you so much, Dana Norman for that comment. Yes, and rosallyn Nixon said,

I got some therapy just watching this episode. Wow, Okay. Prayers for Hayden's complete healing and a heart emoji, Roslynn, thank you for that. That's absolutely one of the reasons why we do what we do because we know it's healing every day. We are healing every day and last but not least, Kristin Bellow says, I love the feeling. Will It's hanging in my office out work in mental health, right, we all need a feeling. Will It really changes how

you communicate and understand your emotions. Yes, everybody get a feeling? Will or say some affirmations? Yes? Speak, come on now you speak in my language? Car, Yes? Do you know why I'm so grateful? Cal we have already received communications from listeners in our let's community. They are emailing us at our email address. What is our email address? Car

Let's Red Table that at red table talk dot com. Yes, and Shannon Cox and Katie Yates, we are so grateful to you and want to acknowledge that we have received your email messages in response to our parental alienation episode. We are grateful to you for taking time to communicate with us, and we are sending you lots of light and love and hope that you will be reunited with

your own children soon. Yes, thank you so much. We have to heal together, so sharing your stories and allowing us to communicate with you just helps us all to share and learn and heal together. We're going to take a quick break, but when we get back, we'll be joined by one incredible guest. Today we're bringing a fellow URTC community member to our virtual red table. We're excited about having Jade here, so let me just get right

into this. Ja Kearney is joining Let's Red Table that from New York City, where she runs she Matters, a digital health platform designed to support black mothers who experienced postpartum co morbidity such as postpartum depression. Jade co founded She Matters after enduring months of postpartum o c D, also known as obsessive compulsive disorder, after the birth of

her first daughter. Jade is here to shed some light on postpartum experiences many mothers navigate, often without the proper resources or knowledge, and hopefully we can help bring some education and eliminate some stigmas today. Yes, indeed, Jade, thank you for coming to the Virtual Red Table. We are so happy you're here. We need to get rid of some of these stigmas. A sad right, No, I totally agree.

Thank you so much for having me and for caring about what's going on out here for everyone, and especially for black mothers, because what we experience in the postpartum world is different from what others experienced. So I'm appreciative of being here. Well, let's get into it. This is the part of the show where we reveal which moments made us pause, rewind, and listen again. I mean made us all just say, wait, what happened right there? Wait,

let's kick it off. When Hayden revealed that she was acting out her real life traumas on the TV show Nashville when I was on Nashville, they really wrote my life into it. So on the show, one of the storylines was that I was playing an alcoholic. Another storyline was that I was pregnant on the show, and then I got postpartum depression, and then you know, they had to relive everything I had to. Yeah, I had to go to work every day and be acting out what

I was truly going through. Can you imagine reenacting that just the trauma is not even like a good part of your life, right, but the traumas of your life on TV as entertainment for thousands of people. Can you guys imagine that. I can't imagine it would be different if she was reenacting winning the lottery over and over again. I couldn't imagine that because I don't want to live the nightmare of postpartum o c D again in the same way that I did the first time. So that

has to be terrible, terrible to endure. Yeah, and something as so enduring his birth in the labor and then like literally the entire things she was going through, and then already from mothers right, like when you're going through postpartum or just just being a mom in general. Every

day is kind of like ground all day. So Jade, I'm sure if you had O c D, every time somebody moved something or whatever your thing was that you were doing, you probably saw it over and over and it probably bothered you just as much over and over. So at least you didn't have to relive it at work. It definitely did like that groundholl day, that phrase like that, That's what it was like. Every single day. I was

being tormented by my own thoughts. And that's crazy because we're our worst enemy, in our biggest healer, right, So to know that the answer is within yourself, but you can't pull it out because you're experiencing this groundhog thing, it really shows you the diversity of your mind, right, Like you can really give yourself medicine, or you can give yourself poison. And in that O c D space, I was giving myself poison. Every day. I was worried when I went to sleep about what the next day

was going to be like. So I can imagine having to go to work and thinking about there's no escape for me, there's no escape in my personal or professional life. That's really really difficult because I had a bit of an escape At the time, I was a teacher, so I could go and kind of get out of this space. But as soon as I was done, I was worried about that same thing too. I know that like my steps were like divinely favored, but at the time I

was in hell. So I just have empathy for her and going somewhere and not want to be there, and going home and not want to be there either. But it's literally sometimes it's moment to moment, day to day, just trying to get through you the next living hall to some degree living haill j you for you saying living hill and made me think back to the one of the other way. What moments in the episode that was a living hell for Hayden her sharing that she didn't know that her ex was planning to keep her

daughter in Ukraine. Hermit, Lee, how old was your daughter when you made that decision for her to go and live with her her dad? Her dad? She was almost three and it wasn't fully my decision. In fact, I didn't even know what was happening until she was already over there. She was thinking that this was just temporary for her to get herself together, get in a at her place, emotionally and physically and be you know, away from the substance abuse and her husband or her ex

husband pulled the okey doke. Yeah, that was the wait what for me? For real? I don't know about y'all, but when this drama showed up in the tabloids a while back, I didn't know what to make of it. So I'm glad that Hayden was able to clear some things. So y'all remember this when this happened, because we're talking not like about the show. Okay, Jay, tell me from your experience, what were you thinking when this happened? To me?

That just shows you how the laws are set up in the States, Like he wouldn't have been ever do that here. So I feel like it was premeditated. And the thing about co parenting life is if you don't have a good relationship, you have a terrible one. I feel like sometimes there's no there's no middle lane, and so I just have empathy for her in terms of, like you're sharing all of your fears, the rawness, the realness of what postpartum is like, and what you're experiencing

with somebody, and then they take your baby. See. I think that's Okay, being a mother is so important. When you become a mother, it's like you're always trying to figure out how to make sure this human it's going to be a better human than you are, right, Like, how can I give your life something that I didn't have?

Or improve your life just a little bit? And so I could see even in her progressing and getting healthy and finding her wellness equation whatever that was for her rehab whatever, Right to have somebody take out the thing that's really encouraging you to get better? Right, what that must have felt like stripped? My mom had her own issues with substance abuse, and I know that like really getting to the point where I'm doing this for my kids and then somebody taking your kids like you're not

a good mom? Right? What effect does that have on a person? Right? Right? You know? And like you said, like you're already trying to be a great mom, and then you don't have any control on top of it when that person plays that chest move on top of everything you're already dealing with mentally, it's it's difficult. This kind of transitions directly into our last what moment? And I love that you said earlier your wellness equation, right,

because what does that look like? Sometimes we don't even know we need help, right, And you would hope that you can go to your doctor. So learning that none of Hayden's doctors brought up the possibility of what she was experiencing was possibly postpartum depression seems like such a huge disconnect. Did your physician talk to you about what postpartum depression was? Not at all? Not at all? And I wish like they had given me whatever, any even

just one, or told me what the signs were. I know that, Jade, you specifically help black women, but we're talking about a white woman. You know, we're talking about someone who also should have some additional something at her hand, right, But it just shows how disparaged women in general are. Did you experience that as well, Jade? So I don't I don't say this a lot of times that maybe

in print somewhere. I went to the emergency room twenty one times and my daughter's first year of life, and they kept saying assuming something was wrong with her, because I know something was wrong with me. I knew something. I was going to the emergency room and I'm like, I know something the hell is wrong with me, y'all know, can't send me back home? And no answers again because something was wrong. And I remember one nurse actually said

to me, do you think you're having postpartment anxiety? That if I am, I would know it. Nobody's helping me, nobody's doing anything. And it was to the point where I was watching my toes twitch. I've never said this anywhere, I promise you. I kept saying, my toes are twitching because in my mind I was becoming sick, like my toes were twitching, because I thought, oh my God, like I'm having some type of nervous system problem. I really had a depletion and electrolytes, but in my mind I

was dying right, and nobody nobody said anything. I think they were like your mine, it's it's been a few hours. Here's some volume, so let's talk about that. Here's some volume. I'm breastfeeding. Don't breastfeed your baby for two days. Here's some volume. You will be okay. Nobody said, here's a referral to a therapist. Here's a referral to a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Jane, I need to ask you twenty one times in the first year of your daughter's life.

And you mentioned that there was one nurse who said, do you think it's possible that you could have postpartum anxiety? Where in the visit cycle did that statement occur? This was probably like visit like seventeen to a different emergency room. I'll never forget it because I'm like, my toes are twitching. And she looked at me like girl, what And I was like, no, something's going on. And I was crying and I was like, I don't know because I don't

know what that looks like. I don't know any of this. I'm just trying to get back to this baby, and I'm thinking I'm a die. That's all of us thinking, just thinking of the that she mentioned it and you said, I don't know. That would have been a perfect opportunity for that same person that was a healthcare professional to have said, Okay, let's put this in your triage right

so that we can explore this more. And that would have been much more helpful for you than them trying to tell you that there was nothing wrong with you frustrating. That would have been so much more helpful. That's why we she matters like we really pressed being culturally competent. I'm calling on everybody in the moment, like she couldn't see my struggle because she couldn't see me. She wasn't black,

she wasn't understanding what I was going through. She just saw me as a woman struggling, which was helpful, but there was no follow up. How do you help the strong ones? You know, black woman, there's a stigma and you hate to say there's a negative stigma. That sounds positive, right, She's so strong. I'm so tired of that. I agree with you wholeheartedly because in our society now, from my perspective,

being a strong black woman is a mantel piece. We were just told we have to be strong because we're black women. Conversely, our counterparts, they are not taught that. They literally are raised in many cases, I won't use all this language to be submissive, to be passive, to be the damsel in distress. And it's okay. That's why we have so many people now that are the quote

unquote careens. Don't get me on a whole another episode, that can do crazy off the wall stuff and then cry because they're taken care of and there's a sense of protection even when they can and do cry experience there they're covered. Meanwhile, here Jade is at the hospital literally going through prices and isn't being helped. But that's because people are comfortable with black women suffering. People are comfortable with our pain, people are comfortable with our devaluation.

People are comfortable with it all. So why helped me? You look like what I think a black woman should be experiencing, right, and that that's what I experienced. Why should you feel at ease? Isn't this what you guys go through? And I didn't realize that. I never said that until after I had my daughter. This is what it's like for me. I don't want it to be like that for her. But when I was suffering with my black child as a black woman, no one's alarms

went off. But in the worst part about it is our alarms don't even go off because we're comfortable with our own suffering. That's the worst piece. Or we just don't know if we deserve healing, you know, conditioned. Yeah, thank you for platforms like this and really bring me awareness. And I think it's so powerful. Like even with red table talk, it has to start with a small conversation

that grows into a bigger one you realize. And a lot of the episodes Willow, Jada and gam and generally the guest hosts whoever they have one, they're all going through the same thing. And it's until it's discussed, we don't even know postpartum is normal and should be normalized as a series of things that the woman needs help with.

And I think previously when I thought about postpartum until I had my own son and went through my own drama, I only thought about it as or I only saw it in in life as the woman being like jealous of the baby or not having attention. Does that make sense. That's the only time it was kind of referenced, and it's all she wants some attention now everybody coming to

see the baby. And the reality is that is that is the thing that that definitely adds to it as far as the concern being only with the baby's health, only with what the baby needs next, and the mother as well being overwhelmed. We're not educated about stuff like this, so it makes sense. And I thought postpartum depression just meant you've had the being you're tired and you don't want to have anything to do with anybody that part, Okay, Yeah,

just like nothing. Yeah, I'm glad that we are defining this together and acknowledging what we all thought it was until we realize what it truly is. So I feel like there are other women going through this same thing. Yeah, absolutely, And always say in every struggle, there's a healing story for somebody else, So we have to have the conversation so that other people say, Hey, I don't have to be shamed for this. Somebody else experienced this. Okay, this

is similar to what I'm going through. Maybe I should reach out to my health care provider because this is not normal. Suffering is not normal. Suffering is not normal, not at all. Oh, that is the perfect statement, Jade. You are regularly hearing stories from women about the challenges they faced through their journey to motherhood or in motherhood. Was Hayden's story similar to what you've come across in your work. There's so much you can pull from her

story that a lot of people have experienced. So yeah, especially about the parents or alienation and reaching for substance to heal what you're going through, and especially the late diagnosis. I've heard all of those things, So yes, if you've never experienced it before, you don't know what you're experiencing when you're experiencing it. That's what we've learned from your women in our community. My Honor is fifty five years

old and set in on one of our events. She started crying and she said, I always thought it was like the devil trying to talk to me talking about o c D and those thoughts around o c D. She has five kids, and no one ever spoke to her about that. Was that the first time she had ever verbalized that. Yes, yes, I never knew what to call it. And so many women will say, what if I harm my baby? This is part of o c D. It's terrible thoughts. Some people see themselves harming their baby,

and it's like the shame you go through. So imagine you have to get up and go to work as a single mother every day you're having these thoughts about one of your kids. But you gotta get up and you gotta go to work. So where's the healing. There's no healing in that. There is no healing. Like the only thing I can even akin this to right is I remember when I got my period, right, Like when

I was twelve or whatever age it was. I had this one thought of like, every woman in the world goes through this, and that's something more physical, right, Like you have your psycho and then you have the tools you need for you. Everyone has to do this thing once a month or whatever. But that's the only time I kind of stopped and just was like, Wow, this happens to every woman and you kind of look around. She could be going through this at any time, like

no one, but no one talks about it. Does that make sense? No, it makes you know what's happening. We see the commercials, the commercials, but you don't see yourself definitely, and everyone's it is different monthly, Like it's the same kind of scenario where we're still not talking about it. But until someone said is it out loud? That's when you start to see the different products and things on

this show. Do you understand what I'm saying? So, just as much as the hope, services like yours, Jade are normalized more and stories are told more because we just don't know what we don't know. We don't know what we don't know. That's the best way to look at it. And there were things that I saw as I was going through my own postpartum experience. I didn't see us.

So they're white. Women would share their stories amongst each other on the internet, like in chat rooms or whatever, and I would not share because I don't know, y'all, you know how we do hold up. I'm about to see here and give my personal thoughts that somebody could come in d CEUs or whoever they are and take my baby. I'm gonna read that's how I found out it was O c D. But I never shared my story because I didn't see anybody that looked like me. And that's what made me say, oh, I have to

do something about this. What's interesting to me about that, too, is that that's still true. That's so prevalent for marketing and advertising now right, and we can even talk about some of the things that we see. The little girls of color now have the opportunity to look at even with the Little Mermaidaid, they representation matters so much that they can look at themselves and see, she looks like me,

and it is absolutely necessary. I cannot wait to learn more about she matters and how you've been able to help support black mothers through your organization. But I think to really understand that work, we need to understand what your experience was like becoming a mom. So Jay, tell us about the months after you had your daughter and

what postpartum O c D looked like for you. It's interesting because I had my daughter and I was so planned, like I knew all the statistics around black maternal morbidity. And I changed doctors at these seven weeks because I didn't like the first doctor that I was working with. She made me feel like a statistic and she was black and said, just because you're black, that don't mean new coach competent. I said, that's not gonna work. So I went to Dr Garfinkle and I said, hey, I

don't want to die when I have my kid. And I know that the chances of me having proclumps here are high, but I don't want to be treated like that. And he said, I got you, and he really did. He really did have me such a great doctor. So I only worried about the during delivery. I was so scared I was gonna die because we hear all of these things and like the anxiety and depression for black women happens the moment you learned that you're going to have a baby because you're like, oh my god, I

don't want to die on the table. I heard all these statistics, but when nobody talks about is the postpartum period. I had no idea what was going to happen postpartum. I made it through the delivery and I thought, who this is over? No, My postpartum started three months into being a mom. And I think what really shook me was, as I mentioned earlier, my mom her own journey with substance abuse, and so there were parts of me before

mommy hood that felt like an abandoned child. So I had these thoughts of like what if I abandoned my child? What if I leave her? What if I forget about her? And that manifested into its own O C D. Right. It was like I knew something was wrong when I wouldn't walk past the kitchen. I was scared to walk past the kitchen because I thought I would stab my daughter. And I had to walk past my kitchen to get in my house. So leaving the house or coming home, I was like, oh my god, what if I see

a knife? What if I stab her? And I never wanted to. That's the thing. It was like something tormenting me. And now I realized I have a great therapist. And now I realized that that was my brain playing with me because she was the thing I wanted to protect the most. So what if you couldn't protect her. I didn't even give her her first bath. I was so afraid that what if I let her go and she drowns? Like there was this like I can't protect her happening with me, and I didn't have the words I needed

to communicate what I was experiencing. My first call was to my mom. And I'm the oldest of eight and my mom is a MoMA during a different it is a different type of mama. And so I said, Mom, I'm going through something. I think it's postpartum depression. Like I said, I didn't have the language. And she said, look, when your brother was born, he was number four. I think I had something like that. I couldn't even look at him. I didn't even really look at him till

he was six months. But I had to do what I have to do. I had to do, and you have to do what you have to do. You need to go back to work because you need your health assurance. And at that moment, I was like, I'm a failure. I'm failing cultural norms of suffering in silence. I should shut up about this. I shouldn't be complaining. And then I reached out to the doctor's office and I think my doctor said something like, plenty of women go through this.

I'm just gonna send you zolof. You can pick it up. I'll check in with you in six weeks. And I'm like, hold on, I'm black. We don't we don't uh antidepressants. I need to be talked into that you can't just give it to me. And I remember I got it in my aunt threw it away controlling your mind. Yo, you'll be just went through it, and it was like you were going to suffer. This is your life. Here. I am trying to figure out do I go to a psychiatrist, do I go to a therapist? What do

I do? And I just had to try so much to get a little bit of relief from someone who said you're not a terrible person. It was like I needed to know that I wasn't a monster. And you had no internal resources. Yeah, your mom and your aunt were from a generation where they suffered in silence. We go back to the shame, and so you didn't have that support as your internal familial support, and then externally they were just popping pills at you, and so you

just said, what do I do with this? And then you got them and still couldn't take them because you had intervention with that. Wow, unpacked a lot. I don't know whatever everybody's from, but I was born in eighty four and so like my mom was from the era of the crack era, and it was like, well, I don't want anythink control in my mind. I don't want to think controlling me. I don't want it to be like I'm on drugs and that's not what antidepressants are.

In the black culture, we stigmatize any medicine for mental health. Do you know the person that made that s s R I, which is an antidepressant major blood pressure medication. So why are you shaming me? Yeah? If you want to share, what were the specific intrusive thoughts you had and how did they manifest day today? It usually would start around sleep time, like when I was going to bed, I would have the thought of and I think a lot of moms have this, what did she stop breathing

at night? So I wasn't sleeping. Not sleeping doesn't help anxiety. I would have thoughts like what if I let go of the stroller when I'm walking her down the street. I know my exp and saying he must have thought I was insane because I was like, I can't be too close to the sidewalk, I can't stand next to the window. I thought, what if I throw her out the window. I don't even know if I've ever shared this publicly. One thought that I had what if I

smothered my baby with the pillow? And it was really because I was afraid of the pillows smothering her. I never wanted to do that, but that was the thought, what if you do that? So they were just so much shame around. You have this blessing and your thoughts. You're a monster. You should be a shame. And every day when I'm telling you, I would cry at work. I would cry in the bathroom like why am I

going through this? What did I do? It really felt like a punishment, like into any any woman experience in this. I please know that you are not a monster. Please know that it happen with hormones. Has to do with hormones, It has to do with a lot of things going on in easide your body, and a lot of women have these thoughts. One teacher told me she had this thought. Her daughter was screaming, and she said, what if I just threw her across the And I remember looking at her, like,

how are you just telling me that? But she had already made peace with when she experienced she was out of the postpartum period, and she said, I had that thought over and over again. But I had to just get over it. And that's that whole thing I'm suffering. I'm not gonna say anything. I had to just get over it. Yeah, you don't need to get over it. You need to work through it, and sometimes in a in an assisted way. Yeah, I had my own anxiety

prior to being a mom. So if you have anxiety or depression prior to being pregnant, you have a higher chance of having postpartum anxiety and depression. So there were things that hadn't worked out before that all manifested. Because birth is beautiful as it is, it's also traumatic. And even what you're saying, birth as beautiful as it is,

is it because mine was not? Like that's only because I'm a whole, hopeless romantic, and I thought me and my son's father would be together forever and this would be this love story, and it was not. I had a whole. I had to fall in love with my son. And I probably have not said this publicly. There's people

who know. But I had to fall in love with my son and went through postpartum and didn't have time to acknowledge that's what I was going through because I had to raise this sun and not be a statistic. Now you look up and it might be social media, and I just still pray for these moms. But you see all the gender reveals and the pregnancy photo, maternity photos. I didn't do all that. I didn't have time to do all that. I was in the middle of shame.

And I can't believe she didn't got pregnant at twenty and so I had my own piece of it too. When you say you had to fall in love with your son, what do you mean fall in love with him? And you know, some people are just madly in love with their child while they are pregnant, and I just I was not. I was in a relationship that was just not going the way I wanted it to. And again I was cloaked in shame of we can't believe

our daughters pregnant young. I just had to work. It was more of a task, and then chilly of I gotta raise my son now. Instead of enjoying what motherhood was for me and doing it with help, when you do it alone, that's also a part of it. It wasn't the traditional for me, But once I got into it, then you start to love the process and you enjoy what's happening. But it was not out like that initially out the gate. So many of our moms come to us single parenthood. I am a single mother right now.

We have a good coparentto relationship, but my kids live with me. But so many of our mothers in our community go through postpartum alone. I didn't have to write my kid's father was there, but I know so many that experience it alone. And that's a whole part of our community. Whenever we have any events around single motherhood and postpartum, we sell out because that's a different type

of loneliness. Right You're seeing the baby that looks like somebody that you love, and y'all are not together, and that's that's difficult. So I just wanted to say kudos to you for sharing that, because there's somebody right now who's who's in that space. My intrusive thoughts weren't like yours as far as I'm gonna hurt the baby specifically. It was more so anxiety of dying for you dying or the baby dying. Car. Yeah, I was afraid I was gonna die and just leave my son with no

one help, no one take care of him. What did I call that? I know there's a word. I called it the Fred Sanford syn John. I'm like the Fred said, you know, coming to join you. Like, I just assumed something tragic, whether it was a heart attack or car accident, it's gonna happen. That he wouldn't have anyone because his father's incarcerated. So that was the other part. It's one thing if you have a child's father that's here and can get to him and or help whether y'all get

along or not. But when they're just not available at all and it's kind of all on your shoulders, it's a different type of pressure. It is a lot of pressures. I hope someone's listening is getting freed by all of these conversations right now, because you are not alone. Truly, you're not alone. Before you knew what postpartum o c D was, Jade, how did you try to heal yourself

the way I tried to heal myself. I did everything I did are evading solutions, girl, I was at I was in the r evaded practitioner's office, like I'm dying and I did yoga. I did, I was ing. I did. Let me tell you, I tried everything anything that was on the market postpartum T. I tried Mommy and Me yoga. I tried a Chinese herbal acupuncture. I mean when I'm taking I was trying to heal myself, and I knew I needed to take an antidepressant right. I knew I

needed to take an antidepression. I had an amazing psychiatrist who was like, if you don't feel better by the time your daughter is one, I don't want to hear it. We're gonna try it, and I'm right here to go through this with you each step of the way. She

was black, and she understood the culture. My therapist is a Jewish Man, so I had a Jewish man having my back and my black psychiatrist, and they helped me get to the point where I took the antidepressants so I could really start to heal because I was doing all these other things. But the truth is I was hormonally imbalanced the process of things correctly, so nothing else

was working for me. And I got on something called move box, which is helpful for O c D. And I think my family around me until this day because I have two daughters. With my second daughter, I was like, I'm gonna stay on the antidepressant and everyone was like, why would you do that? Why would you You're gonna harm your baby in the statistics that I said, Now, I made this decision with my partner and my doctor. Y'all, chill, y'all have not experienced what I experienced. Yeah, you just

needed some empathy. You just wanted some empathy. One of the things I think it's interesting and I want to make sure we talk about this. You mentioned that you had a Jewish doctor and a black female doctor. Was the Jewish doctor your first doctor or did you find him? Finally, how did that tell me about the experience with that? Because we know we talked about your journey. Let me tell you how to find doctor SNAr I went through

several other therapists who were terrible. One was a white woman who asked if she could record me for her Excuse me, lady, do you know what it took for me to get in here? And you want to record my black thoughts? Ultimately not, that's what listen. She asked us she can record me for her class. It's really interesting how shamed you are. And I just want you to know you're okay. I'm crying, she crying. We can't both be here crying. What is siping right now? Let

me tell you everything happens for a reason. I saw an episode of Doctor Oz and Dr Sarner was like, he's like an expert in O c D. Do you know I found this man in New York and he is still my therapist. He's an amazing therapist. Yes, And I was like, he has been one of my biggest supporters because he was like, you can get through this. But he made me feel the fields. He didn't just let me the way I was crying with her and she was crying. He was like, no, you're gonna get

through this, You'll be okay. But Dr I told him that story. He wasn't black, but he's culturally competent. If he didn't know something, he asked me before he says something. He said, let me let me just say, this is what I think is happening. We had conversations, and that's why I say, your doctor doesn't have to be black, but they need to be culturally competent. There aren't enough black doctors in this country to serve all of us,

so we need culturally competent healthcare professionals. How did your experience seeking help alter your view of the post natal healthcare system overall? I realized that the system needs to be revamped. I realized that women struggling is not something that's top of mind for help, but a man being impotent. They got all the pills for that postpartum anything. It's really difficult to get the help you need, black, white, or other. But if you are a black woman, this

health care system does not serve you. Right here in New York, I'm twelve times more likely to die during childbirth. You would think it would be somewhere down south and rest, say in the rural area. Right here in Brooklyn, I'm twelve times more likely to die. It just reminded me of how devalued we are in this country and how

forgotten we are. And here we are. We have our babies, and our babies come out healthy, and then we just there's the ability to fall apart because no one is taking care of us, whether it's family and friends because mental health and postpartum cormabilities is stigmatized in general, or whether it's the health care system who's like, I don't have any time for you. So it just really showed me that something had to be done, even just the conversation.

A lot of matters we started with conversation. You know how many women cry at our events, and like I felt this way. We have people who have kids that are fourteen who come on and talk about what they experience, and I feel like a big piece of what we've done is give black mothers the ability to be vulnerable and say I need help. We're not allowed to do that in medicine. There's documentation that black women don't experience pain the same as other people. It's insane, and there's

studies done. There have been anybody can look this up and I say this all the time, look it up, Look it up. There have been studies done where a black woman is in pain, she'll get tail and all, but a white woman will get a percoset or something, and it's like, why is our pain different? That was so powerful. I sitting here rethinking, you know, you gotta go back through your life and you're like, wow, we

sure are treated different. I mean you started to just have like revelations of all the things that have happened. That's a whole another episode that it really is, because we could be here all day with it. What actually helped your postpartum O c D overall? And what was it like to finally mother your daughter without the burden of these other intrusive thoughts, and how is your relationship with her now? When I got through my postpartum, I just felt like such a better human. I felt like,

oh my god, I like really deep breath. But it wasn't just the postpartum part. I was like, man like, there was so much that I was dealing with that were like walls to me being the mother that I wanted to be. I feel like some of the worst things that happened to us end up being the biggest blessings because I was able to get the help that I needed as a black woman who kept herself busy instead of dealing with her anxiety. And when you have a baby, you can't just keep yourself busy. You can't

just go to Puerto Rico for the weekend. You can't just pick up and go. You have to deal with it. And so yeah, and so I feel like my daughter is the reason why I started. She matters and she's everything. Both of my daughters are everything to me. She was playing the other day with her friends and she had posteds and somebody was like, oh, do you want to play getting married? And she said, no, I want to play. These are my companies. And I was like, yes, yes,

these are my companies. And I was like, she sees me. And I feel so blessed that she came here to teach me this lesson that is hopefully helping so many other black women. Like the daughter mother relationship is so healing in itself. I needed her to be this person to help other women. That's crazy to me. Wow, it's amazing how things will come back full circle. Right. I'm so happy that you're able to help others. That's profound. Yeah,

what's your message to mothers experiencing postpartum code morbidities. Your feelings are valid, your experiences are valid. You have the right to explore what works for you. And if you don't feel right, you don't feel right, don't let anybody else tell you different. Go to somebody you trust. It doesn't have to be somebody in family. You'll talk to somebody at work, someone you don't know how well. Someone someone who can give their opinion and you don't really

care what they say back. The person that you're not close to may have an answer for you. And a lot of times is the person that's closest to us that can hurt us the most. Family is hard. We're hard on each other. That's so true. What about the partners we talked about this. What about the partners of these mothers? How can they best provide support? What would you say to them? Look for the signs. Look for

I don't want to take a shower. Your partner is not sleeping, your partner is more irritable than normal, and it's been past six weeks, which can be the baby blues. Look for your partner sobbing, like crying all the time. That's not normal either, right, And if you feel like something's wrong. Ask them what are you experiencing? Not are you okay? Because we've been conditioned to say I'm fine,

But what are you experiencing? That part can change an answer right right, don't make it close end, Give an open ending question, open ended question. I love that, I love that. I love that. How is she Matters overall making an impact in the lives of Black mothers? Tell us about your organization before we get out of here. I would like to think that we are a safe space for black mothers who don't see themselves anywhere else, that they can come here and know that they can

have a conversation with other black mothers. That you can get culturally competent healthcare providers, information, you can get culturally relevant resources. We have a symptom tracker for proclemsia, clemsia and help syndrome. You can come here and you are safe. You can take your makeup off. Right. I sound so jersey when I said that you take your makeup off, let your hair down, because I see you, I am you,

and I created this platform for black women. Right like this, black women aren't confused about who She Matters is for, and that was done purposely. We're opening up to different to different cultures, different ethnicities later. But for me, I had to take care of home first because we have the worst statistics in the country, right, we have the worst statistics. And I wanted to make sure that as a black woman, I would saying, listen, something is going

to be done about this. We're not just here for black women, black mothers, but we make sure that we have a training a certification program for health care providers because it's a conversation. The problem is miscommunication, right, So we have a culturally competent certification for health care providers to train them on how to better meet the needs

of black mothers. And so I'm not just talking to you black mom and how to communicate with the health care system, but health care system, this is how you communicate with me, and you should be meeting me here too. And that's that's the difference. That part. So there's duality and in ownership and awareness. That's because we cannot do it all alone. We are into America together. So let's

let's get together. This is an American and have the health care system take some ownership for the people that they provide service and take hyppocratic oaths to help people, So you need to be in tune with the people that you help, right. I want to make sure I say this, this is an American problem. Black women are Americans, so this is not a Black problem. This is an

American problem. That part. That part um so grateful with the time to be a lot that we are here now because I don't know if you guys saw it online not long ago, they actually just put like a pregnant woman like in all the doctor's images, but she was black. It's the first time I've ever seen it that that shows you right there, like we are so

far behind, even even in the small superficial thing. So as we start to be seen in that way from the outside, I pray they start to see us on the inside as well, because we're all truly going through the same thing. So yes, I'm glad She Matters exists, and I'm glad that you are helping us all, and I'm glad that you joined us today at the Virtual Red Table. Thank you so much for sharing Jake, continue your phenomenal work with She Matters, and thank you so

much for coming to the Virtual Red Table. I appreciate youall for having me. For everyone listening If you want more information, please visit she Matters dot health. We're gonna take a short break right now, and when we returned Will and By a mental health expert to the Virtual Red Table, our episode continues to be all about Mama's with a very special mental health moment, we get to welcome another amazing guest who is transforming the birthing process

for mama's all around the world. Latham Thomas is a maternity lifestyle maybe and founder of Mama Glow, a global dola training program and maternity lifestyle brand that supports women throughout their motherhood journeys. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness, Late Thumb, I'm so excited, so thank you for being here at our virtual Red table. Oh my god, Tracy, I'm so excited to be here with you today. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, we have so

much that we can cover. So now here's my first question. The Lathan tell me what is Mama Glow. So, Mama Glow is a global maternal health platform that offers education for folks who on the path to become birth workers and dulas. We have a cohort of overlas globally apartment community that we've trained and we matched doulas with families, and we do that across the country and even really

across the globe too. What I'm most proud of about the work that we do is that we're really educating the next generation of birth workers who will transform our medical model absally farm these spaces, and so we have a lot of people who are in medical school that

are doing the training. We have a lot of people who come to the program and have established doula clubs on their college campuses, and so we're so proud of the work that we do there, and also on the Movelo Foundation, which is really also committed to advancing reproductive justice and birth equity primarily through education advocacy, and the arts and education and advocacy are really big areas of

the work. How did Mama Glow come to be? I love that question because the or gens of Mama Glow really start with my pregnancy with my son, who's nineteen years old, and in the time that I was navigating pregnancy and living in New York City trying to find the best resources and product, services and practitioners. If you could think back to like twenty years ago, Okay, when I was pregnant, the internet is not what it is today, and I had to find a practitioner in a telephone book,

which is a relic, okay. And I was like the first one in my friend group to have a baby, and like, think about how challenging that is and not having peer references and people to kind of coach me through. What I came to learn from myself was that I knew that I wanted to deliver with a midwife. I knew that I wanted to liver in a birth center, and I found one. I was living seven blocks away from this birth center, so I go to this place. They took our insurance. It was incredible. I worked with

midwife throughout the pregnancy. It was super empowering. There was a sense of this respect of your body, bodily autonomy, sovereign tea over your experience, and really a trust that you could do this right. There was a belief in our bodies. And so the Midway free model of care I think was sort of the impetus for my falling

in love really with maternal health. And I would say, if I had to reach back even further, I was privileged to be four years old my mother was pregnant, and my aunt and my great aunt were pregnant the same time. So imagine being four years old and you're seeing these bellies everywhere. You know. My mom's really deep in body literacy, so she has me using coloring books

that teach anatomy. And so we're at the grocery store and I'm like four and a half and someone comes up to her and he says, oh, this is so sweet. Your mother has a baby in her tummy. I said, no, my mother has a baby in her uterus and it's

gonna her vagina. Okay, that person feign it, a little grocery store person feign it, right, but then says, this is what I was sort of immersed in culturely fast forward to my pregnancy, and I just felt really empowered, right, and so coming on the other side of that experience delivering with midwives walking out of there six hours later after the deliving my son, I felt so empowered, and I knew that I wanted to help other people to

have empowered birth experiences as well. We're going to have a side by conversation about your great being pregnant at the same time as your mom and your unts that's amazing all on its own. I love that though doulas have been supporting mothers for decades, but many people don't understand they're very real and measurable impact. How do doulas improve outcomes for mama's and babies? This is such a powerful question. Doulas matter, Doulas are important. Doula's help to

shift culture, doula's help to protect families. What I'm concerned about as we think about the maternal health landscape is how to shore up or support for people in our communities. As we look at the maternal health crisis that exists in this country, where we have black women being four to five times more likely than white women to die

during childbirth or due to the childbirth related causes. When we think about the fact that one in four women head back to work ten to fourteen days after having a baby in the United States, unreal. Unreal. When we think about the lack of social services and safety nets for families in this country, duellists really kind of fit these policy gaps right where we do not have structural supports and help people navigate the most challenging, the most vulnerable,

and the most powerful time in their lives. The impact it is tangible and measurable, and we think about the presence of a doulah inside of a birth space. We're talking about a reduction in cincerian sections and increase of vaginal deliveries. We're talking about a reduction in pharmaceuticals like potos and augment ation. We're talking about an increase in maternal satisfaction, a decrease in postpartum depression and anxiety, and a better assimilation into new parenthood if it does occur.

We're talking about helping a family really coalesce and smoothly transition into new parenthood. It is so important to have people who witness you in your vulnerability, who support you and provide the basic supports that we all need, which are to be seen, to be heard, to feel uSens of belonging, because they're also helpful if someone experiences miscarriage or loss right with someone's navigating abortion like we are here for the entirety of the reproductive continuum to support people.

You mentioned postpartum depression and other issues that may come up postpartum. How do do list support moms with postpartum depression O c D or other postpartumental illnesses. When I think about what's necessary on the postpartum continuum, when we find people who are dealing with depressive sentomology, This doesn't

just show up at the time of birth. I would love to dispel one thing, which is that it's not just in the postpartum period that depression shows up, right, it's in fact, along the pregnancy continuum we see depressive sentomology surface. And so when we talk about perinatal mood disorders,

we're talking about the entire continuum. And doula is working with clients during pregnancy can start to see, right, see aspects of where, oh, this person has anxiety, this person is really suffering, like we sometimes see it where somebody who came to pregnancy through challenge, right, like maybe through many miscarriages, losses, and they get to a place who are now the anxieties around if it's even possible, right, can I even do this fear that, like you know,

the baby is not going to stay? I don't know, Like every day I'm like, you know, on edge about testing and results and all these things. We have to work on getting into a place where are using mindfulness techniques and emotional self regulation techniques to navigate that challenge. We have people who are in situations domestically that are challenging.

But the biggest thing when we think about depression and in the postpartum period and and just this continue in general, is that the only way that we can address it is by meeting the needs of the individual, understanding what their unique needs are, and mostly it is creating supports. Right.

So where some people they may come to a decision where pharmaceuticals are the pathway for them, but most of the time, when we get a handle on it early, we can actually mitigate symptoms with support and so that Yes, So what that means is when you think about what you do for an infant, right, you make sure that an infintish change. They're fed, they've picked up constantly, They're like,

you would never leave them alone own, right. These are the same things we need to do with a postpartum person. We're feeding them, we're hugging them, we're attending to them. We're not leaving them alone. Right. They have a separate but equal swaddling. They have to be swaddled. Yes, the nurturing right that we really focus on giving for infants, we need to really think about this person who is born into motherhood or parenthood as somebody who is really

also deeply vulnerable. So you find out you're pregnant, at what point does expectant mother connect with and bring a doula in. Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say that it really depends on the person and their needs. The great thing about doula work is that, depending on what someone needs, you can design care for them that

really supports where they are in their life journey. So if you're someone like I mentioned before, who has navigated difficult terrain in finding your pathway to pregnancy, you might want to work with a doula earlier, right early, right right. If you're someone who moved to a new place, doesn't have friends and community, you might want to get someone earlier on so you can tap into their resources and

some of the supports that they have for you. Generally, though, people will come around sixteen weeks at the earliest, I would say, but weeks is around when folks start to book their duelists, and then you have those people working with you through the early postpartum period as well. How can the mama's inner circle best support her after she

gives birth. From your perspective as a duo Tracy, I love this question because it's an area where we need people to be more educated, where folks need to start having conversations with their sister circle. Because we celebrate the pregnancy. Yes, we'll shower you with gifts and give you what we think you needed supplies. But then after you have the baby, you better preach Hello, that's exactly right. And after the baby comes, it's like where my friends go, like the

phone isn't ringing and nobody coming by. Right after the first week, it's like you're isolated. Hello, I need you to come and help me. That's exactly right. And here's the thing. Most people haven't practiced asking for help. If you think about culturally, right, most of us have been in positions of servitude inside of our families, right, We've been service leaders in our families, and so it's not even within our purview to be able to ask, right,

because everybody's asking us. And so now we're in a position where we're vulnerable and we don't have the tools. We haven't exercised that muscle. So what I love about the pregnancy opportunity is that there are many junctures along your pregnancy where there is something that you cannot do right, that you cannot do alone. And so the invitation is to learn how to practice asking in those smaller moments. Oh my gosh, can you help me tie my shoe? Right? Oh?

I don't feel well? Can you make me some tea? Can you grab me that sandwich? I'm craving? Feel like we need a checklist, We need an inner circle checklist, yes, and doing a postpartum care checklist ahead a postpartum right, So think about just like can you do a birth plan, you do postpartum plan? Right? So this is like the people that I want in my inner circle, who I want around? These should be people who I know can

contribute to my support system right tangibly contribute. So this is somebody who can cook, This is somebody who can help clean and keep them organized. Somebody can run and get the diapers. Somebody who can watch a baby while

take a shower. Who we're gonna be These people who I know we're gonna be, um, really in overtentive about cleanliness, and we'll be checking everybody and dressing it down until I feel comfortable for them to come through that threshold into my okay, because we're not bringing no germs into the baby. No, you know have a barrier. You have to that's a barrier. Thank you. Right, but right we can talk. I'm telling you you and I can talk about this until the cows come home because there's so

much to cover. There's just a wealth of information that you shared already. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you joining us and being here at the virtual Red Table. And you know your expertise is just invaluable. It really is, it really is. And I want to let everyone know that you can learn more about Mama Glow by visiting Mama Glow dot com. Sathan, thank you. We want to know how you're feeling about this new season of Red Table Talk and we are open to

talk about anything with you. So send in your questions at Let's red Table that at red table talk dot com, or leave us a voicemail and speak pipe dot com slash Let's red Table that bring them all. We want to know what you're thinking. Thank you so much for listening. We are just so grateful to have you as our listeners and be a part of our community. Make sure you subscribe on I Heart Radio app and please rate

this podcast on Apple Podcasts of five. We'll be back next week for another episode of Let's read Table That Men. Thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Ellen Rockinton, and Fallon Jethrow. And thank you to our producer Kyla Knew and our associate producer Yorlanda Chow. And finally, thank you to our sound engineers Calvin Bailiff and Devin Donaghey. Let's let's table that