The Narcissism Epidemic

to lie, to cheat, to steal. I know some people like that. The worst thing you can do to a narcissist has forgive them. They're gonna take your forgiveness and turn it into a weapon. You're in a relationship with a malignant narcissist, how the hell do you get out? It can be dangerous. He just blew my mind with that. So today we're doing a show on narcissisms. It's really affecting people in a like a really strong way. I

definitely feel like I have narcissistic traits, definitely. I don't know if I'm a clinical narcissist because there is a difference. I mean, the industry I'm in, who's not a narcissist in it. We cultivate narcissism. In my industry, everything is about me, me, me, me me. All right, well let's go talk to our narcissist expert. So this is one of our most requested topics. Yeah, this narcissistic epidemic is

serious business for me. I'm just trying to in my journey as of late, just trying to identify any traits of narcissism within myself, which I know exists. I mean, one of the most narcissistic industry would agree with that. And then on top of it, now that we have social social media, I think that just breeds narcis because I still find it a little strange to be constantly

taking pictures of yourself and posting like go everywhere you go. Well, I know for you, Willo, You've always had a very interesting relationship with social media because people would always be asking me like post selfiees, post selfies, and that would make me so like, what's going Like that's us even in your instead of your life. You do everything you can to get attention off of you. Yeah, like everything,

but are you drawing? Honestly, yeah, I think it's the coolest thing because you're so opposite of most young people your age. So today we have a beautiful woman that's coming to speak to us who's written many books on this subject, doctor Romany. She is a psychologist, professor, and a world renowned expert on narcissism. Welcome, Thank you. I've watched you talk about this. You're so passionate. I can tell that it is your life's work. Have people understand

what narcissism is all about. Everyone is getting hurt by this. I never I've never seen anything like this. What is the definition of narcissism. A lot of people think it's somebody who's just into themselves. Yeah, that's what I thought. Could be anything, but it's it's actually almost the opposite of self love. I'd almost call itself hate. These are people who have no empathy for other people. They're really grandiose, so deeply entitled. They're arrogant. They can't deal with frustration,

and when face was frustration, they become rageful. You can't win an argument with a narcissist, and I see that. I see that in people so much. They never want to feel wrong, so I always take it and I don't like that, so I just that that's one percent my thing, because I'm like, this is gonna be an argument. You're gonna not want to feel wrong, right, So I'm just gonna cut the middleman and just be like responsibility. I'm the person who takes all the blame. Right. Here's

the thing. If you did it ten times in a row with a partner who had some of these narcissistic tendencies, they could easily crawl in there and take advantage of other things that you're going to look for with the narcissists are constantly seeking validation. Narcissists are very, very sensitive, hyper sensitive to the point of being paranoid, because when it comes down to the core, they're deeply insecure. So that's not self love right right. But because they're so insecure,

they open up with, look how great I am. And that's why it sells so well in the entertainment industry because they can fake it till they make it. When I keep facing it. If you work in the entertainment industry, an account the narcissists, it's not possible. It's not possible. Time, it's it is not possible. It's like going to the beach and not seeing Sam like that. It's really harmful because it's one thing to fake it for a performance. It's quite another to be with a person who invalidates

you all the time. Are there different levels to narcissism, So the classical form of narcissism is sort of what most people picture, that sort of grandiose Look how great I am, Look at my car, look at my dress. I'm all that right, So they sort of suck all the oxygen. We're often entertained by them. They're very charming, that's why people get drawn in. But the flip side of that of the narcissists, we miss what we call the covert narcissists. Those are the dark knights of the

narcissistic world, because they come off as really victimy. The world never saw how great I was. You know, if the world knew how great I was, I'd be the next big thing. So they're very angry at the world. They're very sullen. They can often look depressed, so we miss them because they're not putting on the big show. We don't associate that. But they're angry, very angry. They're very angry. They can be very dangerous as it all goes off. Those are often covert narcissists. The Joker is

a covert because Joker has a very covert narcissistic field. Exactly. That's because look at his whole life with nothing one exactly, nothing went his way, and then he said, I'm going

to make you see. That's then we go on to the malignant narcissists, which to me is the most dangerous dark narcissists of all, because these are the people who not only can be quite grandiose and charming, but they're willing to manipulate, to exploit, to lie, to cheat, to steal, to throw one of the most They're dangerous and they are and to me, it's like the last stuff on the train before being a psychopath. Yeah, one last one though.

What we call the noble narcissist. These are the people who do lots of good things, lots of charitable stuff, and donate lots of money, but the reason they do it is only to get validation. These are the people like I need my name on the building, lots of Instagram post hashtag rescue Saturday, or they look really good rescuing to it look good, it look so it's that.

But what they are is there often they look like a savior to the community, but hind closed doors, they are cruel to their families, They're cruel to their partners, and everyone will say, you're so lucky to have that mother a father. They are saving the world, and you're thinking, oh my god, my life is a living nightmare. This is deep. Yeah, that's that's for real. What would be some of the traits? Okay, the real thing that this all spins on is that lack of empathy. Okay, just

don't care about other people. How do you notice that? Okay, you're very distracted. They often like to say I have a d h D. I'm like, do you have a d h D? You just managed to talk about yourself for an hour, so that a d h D apparently only five minutes ago. So I know some people like context. Yeah right, they can't be bothered. They can talk about themselves all the time, and then once you say something, they're like, how about we just go do something else.

Then you're just like all right, And they just don't care when the conversations not about them, So they will take take take, and can be devastating for people. And it's a lot for a person to get their head around that you just don't care. I know there are just people who have those traits but don't necessarily have

the diagnosis. Very few people have the diagnosis. So you hear people talk about narcissistic personality disorder, and that's the sort of mental illness, right and honestly in the research one to four percent. So people are saying, well, that can't be the case, because it's like every other person I encounter. And that's because when we talk about narcissism, and it's almost an adjective basically, like calling someone stubborn

or friendly or agreeable. If you say someone's narcissistic, it's really a sign that this is someone where it's really invalidating to be in their presence. Have you ever had experienced yes? Really, it put me in dangerous situations. It made me cynical more than anything. It broke my heart. For a while, I lived in that reality of I was nothing and I didn't deserve better than that. And to break those narratives, some of which were ancient for me, it took a lifetime of work. I've been in therapy

for a long time. It's made me much more cautious and so I'm very discerning when I meet new people, like what about you, Jada? Where you ever? Hurt? Big time, big time devastated because you bring people into your your inner sanctum when they make you believe that they're one thing, and then something happens and then you realize they are something completely and utterly different, and it can be very

painful and dangerous. And it also leads you to doubt yourself because the biggest fallout of narcissistic abuse is the amount of self doubt that leaves a person when they doubt themselves professionally, the relationships and all their decision making. Some of them will say, I can't even go to the grocery store anymore and make a reasonable decision. I always say to people, there's two surefire signs you're in

a relationship with the narcissists. Number One, you feel compelled to start recording all your conversations because you feel like I must have heard that wrong. That's how much they feel like they're losing their reality. Number Two, you feel the need to write these really long texts and emails to them explaining yourself because they don't listen. Why would

they read your email? But people will spend hours days writing these long letters, emails, texts, explaining everything, thinking that maybe if they take the time to read it, they'll understand it. I said, they don't want to understand it, so you just wasted three days unless it made you feel better to write it something else. I tell folks, it's what I call the nine ten rule. We tend to put nine of our effort and our energy into the most toxic people in our world, leaving only ten

percent for the good, loving, healthy people. Narcissistic people are a full time job. If we flip the math and gave to the good people and ten percent to the unhealthy ones, it would be so much better for our health. It sounds like narcissists know what they're doing. They're not aware that they're insecure. Their lack of self awareness means they're not even aware of what they're doing to other people. Sadly,

narcissistic get rewarded for their behavior, so it's hard. They're always getting told by the world, you're great, you're fantastic. It's hard to end the pattern. Yeah, I've worked with clients who are in their eighties, and I've worked with clients who are eighteen and I'm gonna be frank with you. I actually think the Baby Boomers are the most narcissistic generation of all. They were generation. It's all about me. I gotta make it about me. And what ended up

happening is they've kind of robbed the treasury. The millennials are really suffering financially. They're putting your dreams on ice and the baby wears on no problem, sort of taking their half out of the middle. So that feels narcissistic to me, all due respect. Wow, that is really interesting. I was not expecting that. So I actually think we're throwing the poor millennials under the bus. They've got a lot more heart than my colleagues who were the Baby Boomers.

Just lost my job, but that never guess the millennials have their moments. Taking a selfie doesn't make you a narcissist, but living and dying by that selfie, that's where it becomes that when you're entire what about when every single photo on your Instagram that's the problem, That's what I'm saying, When it becomes a measure of a person's self worth, right, So you have to figure out what's normative. Do you think people over time, have just become just more insecure.

Do you know why I think about it. I can't get you to buy something unless I can convince you you need it. So if I tell you a lot prettier, if you're wearing a different pair of shoes exactly, and if you're vulnerable to that message, which most people are, like, I need to have the shoes. How do you become a narcissist if you're not born that way? There's no narcissistic babies. This one's on the squarely under sadly on the shoulders of the parents. Kids who are narcissistic either

had narcissistic parents themselves or really distracted parents. Kids who are overindulged, meaning that they get anything they want, all the experience, any money, but their emotional needs are completely undernourished. That's the difference there as far as they're concerned. They go to Disneyland every weekend, but sometimes they just want to cry and say I feel sad, I feel scared, and there's no adult to be found when that happens.

That over indulgence against under indulgence teaches the child that only they're outside external stuff matters, and then kids will only get valued for what they do. You kick a soccer ball, well, you're saying, well, you get good grades, you look pretty. Those kids learn that realize I'm only about the things I do and how I look, and nobody cares about my inside world. By the time they're about sixteen, seventeen eighteen, that starts to emerge, and there's not a whole heck of a lot you can do

about it. This is not a pattern that changes. It doesn't change. So you're telling me that a narcissist can't be cured. I this is this is what healthy. This is what healthy you need to be for a healthy relationship right up here? Okay, respectful, client, compassionate, they're present, all that good stuff. Okay, here's the narcissist. All right. Even a good therapist like me and I have a third of my clients or narcissists. I can get them up to here. We got a problem, so we can

teach them to be on time. But now they're on time and not listening to you. So how does one open their life to a narcissist? And they're so good at making you feel like the center of their universe. We actually call it love bombing. It's like getting a butterfly underglass. It's a game. And then once they get the beautiful creature underglass, they put it up on a

shelf and they forget about it, and it hurts. That day they discard you and just put you up on the shelf is a cold, dark day because you felt the sun was only shining for you. I feel like a lot of people who have those issues in romantic relationships do that for some reason, like they want to win you, and then they get you, and then it's like now they turn right and they play the game. Well, they're really good at courtship, you know, it's the big gesture.

And everything happens too fast. You're moving in too fast, you're getting engaged too fast, you're getting married too fast. And in that way, they kind of trap you even more. Because narcissists are really controlling. Research shows they're more likely to get a partner than a person who's less narcissistic because they are so successful so they make more money. But the person that falls for that seems like it would be a person with really low self esteem. Maybe

not necessarily. That's why it's strange. It's almost there's two groups it's what you're saying. It's people who are themselves very insecure, who come from tough backgrounds, and who are people pleasers. People pleasers are very vulnerable to narcissism. Where do they become people pleasers? But they fall for it because they want to fix and they run around in circles and they keep giving that narcissist all the supply the narcissist. God. But isn't people pleasing part of just

wanting to be accepted in light? But why can't you just be enough without doing all the effort? When your people please, you're really are putting in an active effort, almost like I'm not good enough unless I'm doing something. Yeah, I might have a little bit of that hearing it like that is like I used to hear people please

and be like, oh, that's not me. But then when it's like, oh no, like you want to help, it's more of like I'm here for you, it's more like about me, Like I feel like I'm not doing my part. But then why do you have to do a part? You see, a natural relationship is not that effortful. But a lot of people can, especially women, grow up believing they have to do to earn love because, believe it or not, people start seeing her from my cold dependence. That's what I'll take care of you in six weeks,

will be quick. Tomorrow's good. That's right. This ship, we're good. But on the flip side. And this is what's so interesting. People from really happy families fault for these folks because we want to think this really insecure people with low self esteem, people from really happy families actually believe love

can cure everything. Let's forgive, let's your second chances. The worst thing you can do to a narcissist is forgive them and give them second chances because they're going to run with that and they're going to take your forgiveness and turn it into a weapon. So what happens to the person was in a relationship with a narcissist. People get stuck in these part of It's like an addiction. It's like chasing a high. I've got people ten years into a marriage, we're saying, I just want to go

back to that weekend in Miami. I said that weekend Miami was ten years ago. I mean, I don't care how good the sex was, that was still one weekend. Okay, what narcissists are masterful at is as soon as they feel like their partners pulling away, it's love bombing Part two, Part three, and you see how it becomes an addiction. The other person in the relationship learns like, oh, if I start pulling back, then they're gonna chase me, and

that starts becoming a new dysfunctional cycle. But the big mistake that keeps people in is they think they can change the narcissist. Some people spend twenty years trying to change this person. I'm going to dress differently, I'm gonna lose weight, I'm going to make more money, I'm gonna pay more attention. I'm going to watch football. I'm going to have one kid. I'm gonna have five kids. And that's a lot of what keeps narcissists in business is

we still believe in fairy tales. I really think someone's going to sweep in and make it all better. So are they usually cloaked in like some sob stories. Always a lot of narcissistic people have really rough back stories. They may have been neglected, they may have been abused, But here's the rub. It's not an excuse for abusing

someone Now, that's never acceptable. And if somebody says the reason I'm like this with you, the reason I'm mean to you is because this was done to me, I tell the person who is being victimized by this, you got to get out because you didn't do that to them in the first place. Abuse is never excusable. I don't care what a person's backstory is. So if you're in a relationship with a malignant narcissist, how the hell do you get it? It's not easy, it's actually scary,

and it can be dangerous. Like I'm not going to sugarcoat this, okay, Please just find your power and walk out door. Because malignant narcissists do something we call coercive controls. It's like what you've seen in classical domestic abuse situations. They track a person's comings and goings. They know everyone you talk to. They isolate you from the people you love. You don't feel like you have a safe place to

go to anymore. There's often financial abuse. People in these relationships will sometimes give up their careers because they've become so isolated and they're faking it to the world. Many times, other people don't know how bad it is. Now In the worst of these cases, it gets very dangerous. There's a need for restraining orders, and sometimes these stories do end tragically. There's no minimizing this. I have worked with women who it takes us four or five years to

get them out, and there's no clock on this. So it's because of the mental and emotional attachment. It is, it's it's but it's mental and mental control. Somebody literally running you like a puppet and so and then sometimes people leave and it's terrifying. There they are years in court dealing with horrific custody battles because many times the narcissists doesn't actually really want the kid. They want to stick it to their acts, and that narcissist parent may

turn those kids against their healthy parents. That's not unusual either. So the fallout from this is huge. I get that. I think we have so much judgment when we see people in certain kinds of entanglements and not really understanding it's all about about you know, that's danger of it. Also, it's have a I would think it's have a package it. You're gonna be with me, I'm gonna take care of you. You don't have to work, you know, you just enjoy your life and you don't need those friends over there.

They you don't need they bringing you down. And always wait for the ultimate narcissistic love sentence. No one's ever going to love you the way I love you. I do that is that's like wearing a malignant narcissisting stuff. Get out, like go to the bathroom during the day, and why the window out the bathroom, like you need to get out, like one is gonna love you like But yet some people think that's romantic. I'm so, and

they are considered love songs, not psychopathology songs. Right, it's really really dark that song Every move you made, every breath you take. I'll be watching that'scissist a whole playlist because it's really scary. But keep in mind to what malignant narcissists and all narcissist due to their partners they confuse them. They do something called gas lighting, and gaslighters

when you doubt someone's reality. Okay, because people say that a lot, and I wasn't quite sure what that meant either, you're being too sensitive as a classic example of gas lighting, because you are actually denying someone's emotions that never happened. I never said that you're crazy, you're the narcissist. That's all gas light. It's like being an occult. It's like living with a bunch of mirrors, but none of them

show your own reflection. That's what it's like to be a narcissistic when wow, oh my god, that's so scared that they overtake their minds and the person is so confused that it gets to be too hard to leave. They actually believe they're a bad person. They're too sensitive, they're foolish, they're stupid, and that's their self talk. When does that term come from? Because I don't even get

out a term means what it means. It comes from a movie called Gaslight, and it was about a man who lives in a house back in the old days when you had gaslights and you could turn them up and down and change the intensity of the light. And he kept fooling with the levels of the gaslight and she'd say, oh, have you turned up the lights? He said no, and she goes crazy, she goes completely. She yeah,

that's where the term comes from. We asked you are our t T fan, about how narcissism has affected your lives, and we receive thousands of messages from across the world. First, we have a Lisa from Chicago. Hi Lisa, Hi, every want to go nice to meet you. So sharing with us what's going on my situation is a little tricky. It's about my mother. Oh, basically, growing up, my mother has always made fatements like all my kids do is take take take from me, um. She's made statements that

her life would be better off without children. And so when I decided to become a mother, which was a big choice, especially when you hear growing up that kids are not a great idea, I found myself triggered, but just being a mom, but I would look at him with resentment and anger the same way that I experienced as a kid, and even to this day. And we can talk on the phone for a little bit, or she can come for a visit, and then I'm sad,

I'm angry. So with someone like myself who has a relationship with a parent who can exhibit some narcissistic traits, how do you continue on in your life and how do you stop yourself from inflick being that type of pain on your own kids. It's such a great question. First of all, you said an important word, which was grief. Many ways, when a person as a narcissistic parent, what they grieve is that they didn't get the thing that every child deserves, which is a loving, consistent parent. That's

a huge part of the healing. Recognizing that so you can grieve it and let it go. What's striking me those you still have contact with your mom, and those conversations leave you feeling depleted, invalidated. Those are classical reactions. Part of your healing is putting up better boundaries with mom. I don't care if you have to set a timer during those phone conversations. You might notice that you hit

the wall at five minutes, eight minutes, ten minutes. Do not stay on the phone with her for too long because I hate to say it, and forgive me for being this dismissive, but it's like a toxin, you know, and if you keep taking it in, you're not going to feel good. Being invalidated doesn't feel good, and I actually applaud you for your willingness to try to maintain that relationship, but you have to do it in a way that preserves you. You need to learn to mother

you because you didn't get that. So in some ways, resenting your son is because you're having a mother yourself at the same time, your mother and your son. That's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's courageous. You are not to blame for your mother dropping the ball. That was her responsibility. Make sure you stay clear on that. Oh wow, thanks to Lisa. I hope that helps you on your journey. Yes, now we have Sharon from New York. How are you. I'm doing good. Thank you so much

for having me. So my ex boyfriend and I have two children together, is a narcissist, jealous and controlling. About four months ago, I broke up with him and have been attempting to co parent, but it's been horrible. He continues to try to control me, being jealous, asking me where I am, and even goals as far as texting my son to the answers and I tell them we're no longer together. He plays itself and we get nowhere. So I need to know how do I navigate this.

I want my kids to have a relationship with their dad, but at the same time, I need to have healthy boundaries in place for that to happen. You know, So, Sharon, you said something interesting, I'm co parenting with him, You're actually not. You're a single parent with an elephant on your back. You are going to have to be the strong link in this chain for them. You're going to be the one who teaches them empathy, You're going to be the one who teaches them how to manage their emotions.

And you have to be that consistent space because it's not unusual for narcissistic co parent to turn kids around against their other parents, to almost turn them into spies against that parent. And this isn't going to be an easy journey. You're going to need support. And the other thing, Sharon, is it's critical your document everything. You keep, every text message,

you keep every voicemail. Even though you weren't married, so you don't have to go through a divorce, you may still have to deal with family court and documentation is everything. You don't get to walton into a courtroom and say

he's a narcissist. They're not going to hear it. So you need to monitor the situation more closely than anyone because you are their advocate, and keep an eye on those kids, like if they start feeling like they're getting anxious, you need to step in and make sure they get the services they need. This isn't an easy road for them, but you need to take care of you every day of this is going to feel like a difficult battle and journey. Please be ready for that because he's not

going to go quietly. He's always going to try to control you long after those kids turn eighteen. Shan, you think you can do that, Yeah, I'm gonna try. Try. It's a process. Process. Yeah, just make sure you go into the community and try to get yourself some help because you need support in this. Yes, don't be trying to use domestic abuse resources. A lot of women think these aren't relevant to me. Right, I'm not getting beaten up.

That's actually a small sliver of what they do. They are really what an understanding coercive control and emotional abuse, and they often have some of the best advocates and know that you're not alone. We had a lot of people right in about this exact kind of scenario. Thankank, you, Sharon, thank you. The awareness is on point. Maybe no one is. This is where the Internet changed the game. Because you're looking up. My partner does not listen to me, and

I'm always walking on eggshells. Narcissist comes out back in the day. How would you have known that? Next is Gennie from Maryland. Hey Jennie, what can we help you with today? So? For the past nine years, I've been in a very toxic and emotionally abusive relationship. We've broken up several times, and he always manages to suck me back in. Part of me feels like it's because I'm afraid to get old alone, and my sixteen year old

daughter keeps telling me I deserve better this time. I don't want to get sucked back in, and I just don't know how to let go. So what does he say? What does he do to pull you back in? I love you, I missed you. I can't live without you. I know I screwed up. You're the best thing that's ever happened to me. And since you've been to this rodeo a few times, you know that that's not going to happen. I want you to take the time and

write down every terrible thing he's done. You need it all in one place, because when you want to hear I love you, It's amazing how selective our memory becomes. We engage in something called euphoric recall. We only remember that one good thing in the midst of a thousand bad ones. You need to almost be popped out of the kind of hypnosis that happens. That's number one. Number two, by being in a relationship with him, there's times you missed out on certain things in your life. Friendships, you

didn't pay attention to, experiences you didn't have. When we think about loneliness, we make it too much about a partner. And I get that, But go and do those things with your friends, like watch the movies you wouldn't watch with you, stay at the party late. Because what happens, and we get so focused on making a connection with a partner, we forget that there's all these other people

we can get connection from. And the more we practice healthy connection, the less willing we will be able to take the junk that someone like him is sending your way. It also requires you to step up to the plate of your own soul and remind yourself you deserve better. You have to be able to do that for yourself. I can't tell you, No one at this table can tell you. This is an exorcism. You've got to let this demon God change your phone number, Genie, change your

phone number, And what about her putting? If she can't put herself first, think about her daughter. That's right. I totally agree with Gammy because you know what she's going to learn here, Genie. She's going to learn judgment about men. And if she sees that her judgment was on and you acted in accordance with that, you may be protecting her from making the same as the same mistake. Thank you, Genie, Thank you Genie, thank you you got this. Thank you,

this was really enlightening. Thank you for making this amaz amazing show to hear three generations. It's it's unbeliovd like that you really have like thank you. I can just say on behalf of the people I get to help you. You're making a difference. You bring it tears to my eyes. That's why we do it. Hey, Urtt family, Join our Red Table talk group on Facebook to become part of the conversation one and be sure to follow the show page to catch up on all our episodes. So we're

here with Dr Maminy. So we're talking about narcissism. Swipe all right, but a pleasure. Thank you so much. Do I think people will benefit from that time to join the red table Talk family and become a part of the conversation. Follow us at facebook dot com slash red table talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast. Produce uspot, Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.