Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the Red Tabletop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review on Apple podcasts. Narcissism. Everybody is using this word. Narcissism is at the core of every debutive relationship. The only thing you've done without my help is get sick. I've seen it. It's awful. Gas Lighting is like a main narcissistic trait.
You are so confused. Don't act crazy, Da. It could be your parents, your adult child, your spouse. It could be a boss in a job you need to keep you were hurting them. Possible not possible death, our r T T family, You ask for it, and here it is backed by popular demand. Is one of our favorites. World's leading expert on narcissism and author of two books on the topic, Dr Romney. You bring the fire every time,
and you really hit it on the head. And we have so many people and even in our personal lives, asking how the hell do we survive the narcissist in our lives? Right? Because this could be your mother, your father, your adult childs, your spouse, it could be a boss in a job you need to keep. It's a topic that is kind of trending, narcissism, and so I think it would be really cool if you could just remind us what the definition is. You're right, everybody is using
this word right now. So let's start with the core of it and build out. People who are narcissistic are deeply insecure, and we don't see that part of it. Deeply insecure because they're so insecure and they don't want to be found out. They cover themselves and all of this grandiosity, entitlement, arrogance. But then there is this lack of empathy, in which, to me is the most lethal part of this. They don't care. These are folks who
are very controlling. Sometimes they're downright paranoid. They think people are out to get them all the time. I'm talking to quite a few people. Narcissists tend to be very charming. What they portray with family and friends versus what's happening
behind closed doors is so drastically different. They're building a perfect suit of armor because there's all this insecurity to be protected, So they work on their outsides so nobody will notice the inside and that charm, charisma, confidence are the front game for a person who's narcissistic, to the point where I mean someone charismatic, I'm terrified. I'm like, I got oh right, they're too nice. How do we interact with narcissists in our lives when we can't necessarily
walk away from them? People are watching this saying, Okay, obviously I know what I should do. I should walk, But we don't have the luxury of just walking away from everyone, And so then people feel like, what do I just need to keep things the way they are? No, you don't. This is really a game of number one and above all else, radical acceptance. Radical acceptance is understanding this is not going to change. Personality styles do not change. Okay, So the only thing you can do is work on
your approach to this and your expectations. Those expectations need to be realistic, even if it's just like, Okay, I'm going through the same cycle, but now I'm protecting myself emotionally because I know what's actually going on, recognizing what you're dealing with. So how does one do that? There's a technique I use. I call it the deep technique because you remember it. Deep stands for don't defend, don't engage,
don't explain, and don't personalize this. Okay, so you think about how many times you go deeper in with some one. That's why I say deep, like like no, no, I never said that or didn't happen that way, almost detached completely. In fact, there's a name for that disengagement. It's called gray rocking beings boring. As a gray rock, you become almost inert, right, you're like completely uninteresting. You're like so they have nothing to feed off, So they have nothing
to feed off. And now, initially, and this is one thing I want to warn everyone watching this, Initially, when you go gray rock on a narcissist, they get really mad. That makes you look like almost like you're being condescending, Like, but you can rock because you're not feeding them with something we call narcissistic supply, feeding their ego, whether it's with validation or with arguments. Because for narcissistic people, winning
is everything. So if you don't give them the argument, they're going to lose interest in you and move to the person they can have the argument with. That's it. It's also about no longer share ring of yourself with them. You don't tell them the good things that happen in your life. You don't tell them about the bad things that happen in your life, because they're either going to make fun of the good things and they're going to criticize you even more for the bad things. They don't
want people to watch this thing. I'm going to try these techniques and then maybe I'm going to get through the narcissists. That's not going to happen. You're doing this for you. This is to protect yourself. So a narcissist is never They're not going to change because they don't think there's anything wrong with how they're behaving. And there's not something that you can do to break that only on your side of the street, only on your side.
Even if they have like little tiny breakthroughs, there will be something that happens that will trigger them to go right back into the mechanism that they know and they're just unaware. They're unaware, and that that unawareness is what throws people up. People say, are they like rubbing their hands together in the back room saying I'm going ready, I'm going to go gas like Jade they're not doing that. They're constantly protecting themselves. Everything they do is self protection.
So we put together some scenarios with Dr Rominey and first the malignant narcissists. That sounds dangerous, right, This is very psychologically dangerous at times, can actually literally be physically dangerous. This is the form of narcissism that's actually closest to psychopathy. Someone who will lie, cheat, harm you to your face and feel no remorse. Pay attention to this scenario. It's a pattern you sometimes see in relationships that last a really,
really long time. These are people who have been married for fifteen years and they have three kids. This scene you're going to see here is a really good glimpse at what malignant narcissism can look like. Hey, babe, what are you watching? I don't know something. You just ruined by walking in front. Sorry, don't forget. I have that procedure on Monday. Yeah, will you come with me? Do you really need someone to go with you that? I'm pretty scared. I don't know what to tell you. You
already know I don't like hospitals. Isn't it enough I'm already paying for your health insurance? Of course, I wish my husband was jumping at the chance to take care of me, but you know he doesn't really like hospitals. Here we go with the guilt trip. It's you, you, you you. I mean, the only thing you've done without my help is get sick, and honestly, I'm not sure I can really do this anymore. Okay, I'm sorry, and
pretend I didn't say anything. He does pay all the bills and the insurance, and I am sick a lot. I really shouldn't complain. M. Wow, when I tell you I have seen that one that just seems blatantly abusive, but it's it's awful, right, narcissistic people of you sick people as inconveniences. They're like, you just made my life harder. I don't want to go at the hospital and now they have to feel bad for the sick person. That's too much empathy for them. M that's too much empathy.
And I have heard that story so many times I can't count it. It is utter devastation, and it threatened things like leaving, and threatening leaving is the ultimate power play, right. I'm just confused as to how they can look at themselves and think that's okay, because they're not thinking. There's no self reflective capacity. Whelow. They do not look in words. You know how you're constantly looking inward and saying did
I do self analyzation? But that ability to look in words and say, how am I affecting another person through my words, through my actions? That's empathy. We're always talking about empathy of like do I get your feelings? Empathy is paying attention to how I talk, carry myself and how it might impact someone else. And you've got to remember too, you look at a story like this, why did she marry him? They don't act like that? And let me tell you that's lightweight. What we just saw
right there, that is light weight. And you said, you've seen this what happened? Unfortunately, I had to distance myself from my my girlfriend and her husband because it was I it was just too brutal to watch. That's why it's so upsetting, because you know, I've seen it. It's awful and it can be so insidious. And I think narcissism is at the core of every domestically abusive relationship, emotionally abusive relationships, and physically abusive relationships. I have to
agree with you that makes total sense. I never even I thought about because even that lack of empathy, like to see someone being so physically hurt and to keep killing them all. Then domestic violence folks say, instead of asking why she's not leaving, let's question his behavior because that's the problem. Right, So what do you do in the scenario like this? So remember we've talked about this idea about going deep, right, not defending, not engaging, not explaining,
not personalizing. The not personalizing is really a important here because people say, well, this is personal, right, There's a difference between something being personal it's very personal, and not personalizing it. She's not responsible for his conduct. His behavior is bad. I just can't imagine staying in a relationship like that for so, but there's so many people, so many people, So show us how to handle this. Don't forget. I have that procedure on Monday. Do you really need
someone to go with you that? My sister will take me, right, cool day, it's it, so your your sister will take me, and I'll be sending your ass divorce bill. So, but you see what happens. People are saying, what is she doing? So she's just rolling over? She started rolling over. She is trying to survive. When people stay in these relationships, I often think of it in two ways. One is practical money children, they're gonna she's gonna sher costs. She
didn't want to, she doesn't want to do that. Then there's the other piece, where people in these relationships already blame themselves. I'm not working, he makes the money. Maybe I'm asking too much. Maybe I'm the one who's being difficult. That justifying is actually at the core of something we call the trauma bond. That when a person is in a relationship with a narcissist, it's it's this old pattern, usually from childhood, where they've learned to justify another person's
bad behavior, and over time, justification equals love. WHOA, that's the pattern. You know what, Dr Romney, You really hit on something there. That's Narcissist relationships are tough. So next is a very common but very misunderstood type of narcissists, which is a covert. What you're about to see is a really typical sort of covert narcissistic interaction. This is a form of narcissism, and if I was to put it in a word, it's victimized. They're always the d them,
They're always blaming everyone else. They do not take responsibility. Their entitlement is more quiet, and in this scene it's between two sisters in law. So how's where it gone? Oh? Not good? So unfair. Mary got the promotion. I mean, of course she did. You know, my boss knows her dad, so everything always goes her way. I thought Mary was the one who brought him that big account last year, and everyone thinks she's great. So what I made it
on my own. I didn't have any connections. I work harder than everyone else, and I never get it my way. I just have a dumb boss. I mean, I'm so much smarter than her, but no one has given me a chance to prove that. Sarah, I think you're great. It's just that it seems like maybe Mary deserves it. You don't get it. You don't and you never support me, how consciously I'm not supportive. That really hurt my feelings.
I feel like I spent nine of my time listening to her complaint and honestly, you're starting to sound like everyone else. I don't even think I'm going to go into work tomorrow. Then everyone can see how valuable. I am who else would be her friend? I don't want to be all alone. I guess she's not that bad. Oh that person who's in constant victims speak. No one ever gives me a chance, nothing ever goes my way. You know, some days people are going to see how
great I am, and boy, you'll all be sorry. It's always very negative. They're constant malcontents. They're never happy right now. I know some mal contents yeah, and a lot of malcontents are covert narcissays. This restaurants too crowded, This restaurants too empty, This view is terrible. Nothing nothing ever makes them happy? Wow? So what are we supposed to do? And the number one thing you should do is really avoid the temptation to rescue them because a lot of
people almost want to jump into shrink mode with them. No, no, no, you like you're really great, or oh let me see if I can fix this. You don't like this restaurant, We could will find another. See what I'm saying a lot of people fall into that rescuely place. That's what I was. I was about to be like that to me, But it's not fairly. Remember you feel like you have a responsibility, rescue the right. But here's the thing, you never can right because you're gonna keep trying it. There
never stops. You rescue them this one time, and then it happens again. She's in a situation right now. So this might break you of the cycle because it's gonna get you nowhere. You see what cycle you've been in and how it's been frustrating, how it's taken up so much of your time when that person is just lil. When I was watching that, in my mind, I'm going just you know, be compassionate because you know she's going through something. Let's see what the sister in law was
saying at the end. She's saying of the time, it's me listening to her stuff. So never ends. When you fix one mess, it's always the next mess because they always field life is unfair to them, only them, And then like they enjoyed being in that yeah, yea yeah, that's how they get validation. Get me because like you've been through so much, so that's validation you really you're a fighter. So let's take a look at a strategy for this. Sow's where it gone. Oh not good? So unfair?
Mary got the promotion I mean, of course she did. You know, my boss knows her dad, so everything always goes her way. I made it at my own. I didn't have any connections. I work harder than everyone else. I never get in my way. I just haven't done boss. I'm so much smarter than her, but no one has ever given me the chance to prove it. I hear you by me disengaging. I feel so good that I don't have to fall down that rabid hole of a spiral,
because that was gonna cost me several hours. She really did. She didn't even respond. That's it. And that's her sister in law. So maybe, oh, maybe she's tight with her brother or whatever. But I know people are saying, well, aren't you just enabling her. She's not a therapist. That's not her job to fix her. I say, when you have someone like this, don't go on vacation with this person. They're gonna be the most miserable week of your life. And I say, people said a timer and say, you know,
I'm so sorry, I gotta go. Can you change the subject? Like if she was there was like, girl, you had those stretches, You really can get tried that again either, all you see how they're all short term strategies, right, how many times you going to change the subject. Her sister in law is just going to keep in that negative spin. Yes, it seems like gas lighting is like a main narcissistic trait. So let's talk about what that
is actually gas lighting. It's there's the other hot word of the Gaslighting is a form of manipulation where you really kind of get power over a person by doubting and invalidating their reality. You deny their reality. And when you deny someone's reality, ninety sign of people are like, maybe maybe they're right, maybe I didn't say that. We doubt ourselves. When it happens repeatedly, you feel like you're
literally going crazy, but you no longer believe yourself. The only person you can really gaslight you is someone who either has some power or who you already trust a little already. That's why family members gas flight, That's why partners gaslight. So it's not just that gaslighting is not just lying. Gaslighting is lying and then twisting the knife further so you feel crazy. Could it also be in a form of like you're in an argument and they're like,
I never said that, that's a gaslighting. Do I need to be recording? That's there? It is the first time someone says to me, I'm gonna start recording my conversation. Like, you're being gaslighted. It's that simple. Or when you feel they need to show someone like there's the text, You're being gaslighted because you feel like you need proof. When you feel like you need to bring an evidence base for your feelings, you're being gaslighted. Right. Well, we also
have an example of gas lighting. The chicken is good? Right? Who is that? Oh? One of the guys from my fantasy lader. It looked like it said Melissa, and the message was too hearts. Wow you always go there? Yeah? I do always go there, especially given our track record. Okay, fine, it was Melissa Gregg's wife planning a surprise golf trip for him. Can we just get through one meal without
your accusing me or something? Your way too sensitive? If I was getting heart text from another woman, do you think I would have my phone on the table for you to see it. You are so confused, don't act crazy. Look, I'm leaving out of town soon. I just wanted to have a good night us chilling, no drama. You don't want me going out of town not feeling you. Right, I'm afraid that Brian is going to cheat on me again, and I just need to get ahold of myself with
all the wild accusations. You know, baby, I'm sorry, You're right, Okay? Do you see what I'm saying. She's almost like trying to win him back over again. He keeps the power. Wow. So a big way we get people gaslight each other as they say things like that never happened. You always do that. There's no nevers and always is in relationships. Right,
that's a gaslight. I tell people, I need you to write down all this icky stuff that's happening in the relationship every time that they've doubted your reality, so you can see it's a pattern. There's no possibility of a long term, healthy relationship with somebody who's a chronic gas lighter. It's just not possible, all right. So as we were putting together this table, Alex, a thirty six year old, reached out and said he was worried he was a narcissist. So Dr Romney sat down with him for a one
on one session. This is very rare for this to happen. A narcissist asking for help. Yeah, because they don't typically recognize that. They don't, but you know when they do start recognizing it, gamm me, when everything starts falling apart in their life. I'm here today because my dad is an artist. I've been suspected I might be one too, And having heard some people I loved in my life recently, I'm being really scared that I will only get worse as life goes on. The way I would describe my
life now is depressing, dark, confusing, lonely. I've sort of had a generally lucky life, I would say, in terms of, you know, school being easy for me and getting straight a's and all of that. You know, valedictorian, and I had a good job and you know, making decent money and and so things are just smooth. But always told me, don't feel like you're inadequate. It sounds like you never did feel inadequate. Never when you also have the best grades of being hired out of college for to a
six figure salary. Sort of combination of that becomes off. I am really good, right, I'm special? Yeah, and so I am I know better than others in some way. Okay, so, according to my dad. Of course, I own him for every little thing in my achievement. Okay, everything that's good, we all to him. Everything as bad as com is from somewhere else. Okay. My dad and I've worked together, we argue a lot. The arguments became so unhealthy right over the little things, and I felt none of my
ideas were meaningful to my dad. I said that I just don't think we worked together well. He dis owned me as a son. He disowned you. I clearly remember sitting on a couch and he said, you're you're no longer my son. Oh. I didn't know anything about narcisism at the time, but what I understood is that my dad can be extremely cruel on a dime. You pushed back on what your father wanted, you said first time ever, and he abandoned you. He rejected you. I think he
wanted me to feel very guilty. He wanted to control you again. That's when I sort of sort of seeing some signs of how do I say, like the the the after effects of growing up in an environment like I. It's hard for me to tolerate bureaucracy. It's hard for me to tolerate incompetence. I get hired to a corporation that has a big structure, working for this fortune company, I feel like a number. And to me it's like, this is stupid, this is wrong, and it's really I'm
very impatient. Yes, we're all. Everyone you encounter every day of your life was shaped by their parents. You so far laid out entitlement. I'm special, arrogance, I'm better than this and contempt. This is stupid, Like, there's no I don't see the point in this, right, So you're stacking up the lugs, it's right, yes, So I think at some point I got five from five jobs in a row. Why would you get fired? Uh, insubordination, want into things my way? Only um, one time I try to get
up my boss fired. All those jobs you were at where you were insubordinating to people are mistreating them, you were hurting them. They went home, some of them cried, some of them couldn't sleep, some of them couldn't function, couldn't pay attention to are kids because they were thinking about how you behave no possible I would say death. And I never had a single remorse about okay, and
that's okay. So I had no remorse about the fact that I was ruining people's days with my conduct, and honestly, no empathy for how your conduct affected those people in those jobs. I'm sorry, some emotion about Yeah, he cares about a little bit. Well, it seems like he cares about his his behavior, or maybe he's being perceived about Was he worrying about those people about having to hear
about how you were perceiving his actions? Is it some of that insecurity coming out though, because even the way that you're describing it, it seems more of an anger and less of a sadness. When I looked at his eyes, he looked like he was about to cry. Yes, yes he was. I was there. He was absolutely. Alex's life
continued to unravel. And so here's more, you know, I mean, I mean the person of love my life, and you know, everything's going great, and then I think three and a half years down the road, you know, she started having a conversation with me. She feels abandoned, she feels like I don't pay attention to her. We were considering marrying. We lived together for a long time, we got a dog together, and she was very caringus. She's very empathetic. You said she showed you a lot of empathy. Did
you show her empathy? M oh, I showed her love at the times when I wasn't there, But the amount of times I was present, it was not a lot. Right, So it sounds like you showed her love and it was convenient for you, Damn I would yes, So, yes, I think. I think that's the the ugly truth of it.
So in essence, you were the one who got to eat all the time, and she was starving to death whom there was embarrasatific moment where we went to bed and she was crying next to me, and she cried herself to sleep, and I was next to her, feeling horrible, absolutely terrified. I could feel the pain, but I had no clue one to do about it. Aren't you terrified that this most beautiful thing in your world you didn't
know how to take care of it? I'm absolutely terrified for two reasons, One, who am I going to hurt next? And to how am I going to hurt myself next? Through that? Will I even survive that? Did you not almost survive? This? One? Correct a little in the high rise and I was at a point I was on a balcony and I was thinking of I'm going to jump. Do you want to reconcile with her? Oh my god? Yeah? Do you have contact with her? Um? She changed her number?
An email for someone to change their number and email after breakup is not a good breakup. You may have hit what I call that proverbial narcissistic rock bottom where nothing ended up working out. And I have to tell you, this is a very perilous space. And you've already walked one of those paths. You almost thought that this was over for you. Yea. In listening to you talk what I've I've sort of observed there is certainly it's a pull to seek out validation, to be recognized for what
you've done. You want that. I've got to say, if I worked with you, the irony is I'm blame. Yeah, I don't. I don't trust this guy. I don't like this guy. But the overall feeling I was having for you is pity. I feel sad for you. I feel sorry for you, and that to me is dangerous, And I'll tell you why. Let's say I'm a woman who meets you, I might say, like, Okay, there's something really
uncomfortable here. This person's quite egocentric there, very arrogant. But I feel for him, and they're gonna want to rescue you. And that Alex is the ultimate manipulation. Wow, I was having a day. Yeah, it's just so hard to because I see the pain in his eyes, like I see that he's actually struggling. But he's a rare one because at least this is this is a narcissist at a rock bottom because he has to me a lot more self awareness than what I've seen. That's right, and probably
because he lived it. He lived he went through it with his father. Yes, but usually many many people who are narcissistic had narcissistic parents. That's not unusual. That's very interesting. You can see that he's just disconnected in a way that he can't understand how to connect. And I kept going and going until it blew up for him. Do you have any other questions for me as we come to the end of this. Do you feel there's hope? You know, I actually feel that there's I'm going to
say there's conservative hope. And here's what I mean by that. I am not a big believer people change much from these patterns. I'm going to be frank with you. It's it's like literally climbing up a graceful It really really is. You have to every time you speak, every time you're with another person, you have to be mindful. You have to be aware. You have to be empathic, compassionate, respectful, reciprocal, pay attention to how you're affecting them, genuinely care about
what they're going through. There can be no more of those sloppy days. There can't be the days where you are literally not paying attention to a partner who's crying next to you in bed. Do you really think you can do that? I don't think I can. I don't know. I've worked with people who have been where you are, and I have to tell you this, It's always been three steps up and two steps back. Three steps up,
two steps back. They make progress, but it's slow and there's a lot of frustration, and people as smart as you who get away with it don't do frustration well. And what it means, though, Alex, it means that when the big, fat, grandiose opportunity is put in front of you, and the beautiful woman who's empathic is there, and you've got these two things on either side of the field. Only you know what the healthy man is going to choose, and I can't predict that. I do know now the
question as well, I choose it? Will you choose it? Oh that's interesting because for a minute there, for a minute there, I saw him slipped back into his old path. And that's what I'm saying is that under the stresses, the conditions, the data day, probably at least once a day, he's going to slip back. And then it comes down to how much can you get it right the other times? To remember, the thing with narcissism is that they're not bad all the time. Okay, they're good enough at the
time to keep you hooked in right. And that's why it's so hard for folks. I just keep going back to the crying next to him in the bed, because like for me, that just seems like wow, like if you couldn't even turn over and be like hey, even if it's like what are you crying about? Just just a acknowledgement like all the time, what he needs to do now is the equivalent of changing a habit. And we know how hard it is to change habits. The
only example I can give here somebody trying to lose weight. Okay, every day, every meal, even when they're stressed. They can't turn back to sugar. You have to think every time you put something in your mouth. He's got to think every time something come out of his mouth. Basically, he has a really, really tough journey ahead of him. But I do applaud him for being vulnerable, you know, I really really do. We got to give him kudos and time sending him all the good vibes and and and
hopes that he will decide to take that journey. I hope. So. As always, Dr Romney, it's so nice to have you here. It's always so freaking enlightening. I got you know, I'm like, you know, it's studying every time you come in, and it's like, I appreciate the questions you asked to. So many people are struggling and they don't have access to
a therapist. Yeah, that's how straightforward you are. And you know, even watching you in the conversation with him, it was just like wow, like she really knows what the hell she's talking about. I appreciate my goodness for our our t T fan out there. I hope this was helpful. For you. It was helpful for us. If you have more questions, send them in, you know. And I hope all of you talk to each other and all the Red Table family circles that we have on Facebook, and
we are sending you all just love and blessings. Are we ever going to bring band Dato Banget is too wild? He's a I don't think it's not going to just sit in there anymore. Yeah, he's a little too chaotic for the brand. He's only nine months. Yeah, that I've tried. I tried to help you to join the Red Table Talk family and become a part of the conversation. Follow
us at Facebook dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast, produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.