Positively Gam: Black History Saved my Life w/ John Lucas & Ernest Crim III

In this episode, we're going to be discussing a really interesting and timely book entitled Black History Saved My Life by Ernest Krim The Third I had a friend that sent this book to me, and just the title alone really struck me. I really really believe so strongly that it is the last of knowledge that we have about our true history that keeps us so divided as a community and as a culture, and that is by design. Joining me on the podcast is John Lucas and Ernest Krim.

John Lucas is an accomplished entertainment artist and president of the nonprofit organizations Step into the Light. Ernest is a high school teacher, activists and author of the book Black history saved my life, which is the topic of our discussion. So I want to start with you, John, because John and I met at a step in event. I am I'm not from Chicago, but I love the Chicago step and that's where I met John and we became very good friends. You actually were the one that sent me

the book. Yes, you sent me the book, that sent me Earnest book. So how did you and earnest me? The nonprofit that I have performing in my head? And I was like, I need to get back to the school. You know. I just got sick of going on social media and hearing about classmates having to bury their children they got shot, you know, or hearing that classmate's son is going to jail to do a bid whatever. And so I was like, let me go back and just see what I can do. So I still have connections there.

I know wonderful lady there that works in the principal's office who's one of the secretary of Her name is ms Ella Jenkins, and I've known her for a long time and so I was just telling her what I'm trying to do, and she was like, you need to meet Ernest Krim and and I she wasn't the first person to tell me that, but she was like, I'm

going to see if he's available. And my other friend who also works at the school, she walked me down to his room, and that's where we first met and got a chance to talk and chat and and you know, just got a chance to get a feel for each

other and what we're about. And I started to He actually has started a black student union at the high school, which I think is awesome because you know, usually black student unions start on the collegiate level, where you where black kids can come together and talk about common issues. And so he would have me come in and allow me to come in and talk to the kids about my experiences and get a chance to connect with them

so that those children can see my face. And so when he said, hey, I have this book, you know, I was more than happy to pass it along because he's doing wonderful things not just for the children, but for the community in which they live in and try to navigate. Ernest. So, tell the listeners a little about your background and why you decided to write the book. Yeah.

So I'm from the South Side of Chicago, born in the late eighties, and I was raised by parents who were very aware, and I say I was blessed because I had parents who whenever I asked the question, whenever I had an inquiry, they always answered my question. I was that why why why? Why? Why? Kid? And they always had a response, and if they didn't have a response, they led me in that direction to find the answer. And this is before Google, so that's a big deal.

We have the encyclopedias go on the basement. It was from the sixties though, don't get it twisted, but we still had a chance to read through them. Being caught in two worlds. Really on the South Side, like I saw my friends who were, you know, called up in the street life. But then I also had parents in the family who was like, that's not gonna be you like you going to college. We ain't gonna be able

to get you all the Jordan's. We ain't gonna be able to get you everything you want, but we're gonna get you give you access to all the knowledge you need. And throughout my life I began to realize that I always had this question about our condition as black people, but I wasn't really connecting the dot yet. And I guess my inquiry started with, for one, not being able to be friends with a pair of twins white friends that I had that because they didn't want to come

to our neighborhood. And then that snowballed into being nine years old and asking my mom why we had never had a black president, and then she told me that would be me. And then it became a situation where I have a black friend from Nigeria who's kicked out of the Mount Greenwood neighborhood where I went to school because they were spray painting. Go back to African in words. So as you this is all before like the age of eleven. So I just kept having as your current theme.

And my mom and dad were always in my life, Like I wanted to go to Denny's one time, as the readers will find out, and my mom was like, no, we ain't going because they don't serve black people, you know. So this all comes to a culmination in where my wife and I are at a festival in Chicago. Okay, hold on, hold on, I don't want to get to that yet. You have a motto earnest black children will

perform better if they have pride in their history. Yes, and I would like to preface this by saying that we already know these things to be true, because, for example, I saw a study today by Harvard and they said the reason why there are so many black people in prison is because DNA systemic racism. So we know these things already. My life is a testament. John's life is a testament. Your life is a testament to your kids

are as well. So this Harvard study says that when black children are talked to have racial pride, they perform better academically because they are aware of the hurdles they may come in contact with. And also, to me, it gives them prime to understanding that it's not their fault that these hurdles exist, but they exist, and this is how you work your way around them or dismantle them completely.

I want to talk about some of the passages in the book that really resonated with me, and I want to start with a quote that you had in the book that we all that most black people are familiar with, and that is Malcolm X question is who taught you

how to hate yourself? And that kind of in your book that leads you into the discussion about where this all began with slavery talked to us a little bit about that, and you know, I have to say, Malcolm mex is probably to me the most important historical figure because I think, you know, he taught me how to value myself as a person. And what I discussed in that book is just really how I believe that we as African and Americans, as black people in this country

were taught systemically to hate ourselves. Like we're at a place now where we're not technically on the plantation, but everything that we're taught and fed and bombarded with allows us to stay there mentally. And if you don't intervene with the child, a black child, then they're going to fall within that system just regularly. That's how we're supposed

to be set up. If you think about the areas of which we populate the most in this system, which I'll talk about in the book, we're overrepresented in the prison population, were overrepresented in in in sports, basketball, football, ramping, you know, But we don't have ownership in these companies, you know. So my thing is if we if they quote allowed us to get into these systems without any barriers anymore, you know, shout out to Jackie Robinson, Bill

russeling people like that, and we completely dominated it. Then what would happen if we knew what we could actually be outside of that, because that's the trick they plays. We were talking about this yesterday, John, the fact that we can only go as far as we expose too. Because we always see the rappers on TV, we see the athletes on TV. We don't understand that the person sitting up in that box office, the box were signing the check has way more money than the whole team.

And feel free to jump in, John, you said, I see you shaking your head. I think that it's important. One thing that I always try to tell kids, but especially their parents, A child's gaze is only as far as their parents, their family, and the people in their community. If they the people in the community actually want to give the information. If the community's gaze is limited, then the child's gaze is going to be limited. And so and unfortunately one problem we do have to say, we

don't share information with one another. A lot of times there are just simple, you know, things that you think as menial that could change the life of someone else if they just had that tidbit of information or encouragement. So I think we need to really work to get the information to our youth so that to broaden their kind of spectrum. You will on what could be possible and show up so that they can see that it

is possible. You know, kids believe what they see. Okay, So this brings us to another quote I want to read from the book Earnest, and that is on page one eighty. You say, if history has taught us anything, it's that racist whites will continue their destructive tendencies. So what must change is our approach. We must change our perception of ourselves. Are you beautiful to yourself? Do you love your skin, your nose, your lips, your hips? Do

you hate your august, volutinous parentheses, nappy hair? What do you see when you look in the mirror? Because I feel like, how can we expect to be treated with dignity and respect if we don't truly believe that we deserve it? And so do the kids really and honestly trust that they are worthy? I would answer that adamantly with the no. And again it goes back to the program. And this is also as connected to the Malcolm X quote you brought up earlier. When we grow up, everything

we hear about black is negative. Think about the scene in the Malcolm X movie. You think about the fact that we're not speaking our first language. So when you see the connotation of what black is in the English dictionary, it always means something negative, whereas when we're talking about ancient Egypt or kimm it, it meant something glorious and regal.

So when we when we crack jokes as kids, you know we're talking, oh you dark, you as dark as this, your your wife knows, your big lips, your your bogus hair. Everything that we used to demean each other is a relation and directly to our natural African esthetic. And I think that's something that again when we're pushing our kids to the school system, if we don't intervene, like I was saying before, then they're that's all they're gonna believe.

Our kids are saying, you know, the pledge every day, even on Zoom virtual calls, but they're not making a pledge to themselves else, they're not making a players to their blackness. They're not seeing positive attributes. And again, for me, if we don't have something that's I think from right now at this point in history, what we understand is that we have to have some type of at homeschooling system set up that's in conjunction with what they learned.

So it's like, Yo, what did you learn in history class today? Oh, Columbus of the Ocean blow and fort Unity two? Let me tell you what he did right after? Yeah, that's so true. That's that's so true because you know, I have to use the Jewish culture as an example. You know, the Jewish culture is not putting the responsibility on public education or any private school to teach their children their history and their religion, you know. And I just honestly feel like we need to have our own

education programs for our children. Whether it's because this is all by design us not knowing our history and not understanding who we are and where we came from is by design, you know, And we've got to be responsible for taking control over the information that goes into our kids. As exactly I was gonna say that. It's also it's before you even start to school, just to have a comment,

just a regular conversation with your child. I think a lot of these children's their minds are not being stretched, if you will, buy their own parents or their family members. I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of black parents make is believing that because their child has a black parents and black siblings, they must love

black people automatically. And that is not the case. Just because you grew up in a black family doesn't mean you love black people because the society and in the all the imagery and so on and so forth, and the media has taught you not to love your people before you even realize it, you know, So make sure you know, making sure that we're able to just have

a honest dialogue with our children. I think this book is so great because a lot of our history that we have here a lot of times was not talked about by our our seniors, if you will, because if it came trauma, and they didn't want to talk about it because they would relive the trauma. But unfortunately, we get the short end of the stick because we don't get our history. But in order for us to get it, they have to relive that trauma. And so it's always

that conflict there. A lot of our great grandparents and grandparents wouldn't tell us about how they had to flee to get out of the South to make it North for a better life because it was traumatic for them. But as is, you get a group of you get a generation of kids that don't appreciate what's done for them to get them where they are. So true, so true. So, Ernest, you drafted it a lesson that you described as the lesson of your career, and it was around the Trayvon

Martin murder. Yeah. So you know what was interesting about that whole experience was now, when I look in hindsight, I devoted five chapters to the trauma that I dealt with surrounded black men and woman being killed. And this work when I released it a couple of months before this whole incident happened with Black Lives Matter. So when I was talking about in that situation right there with Trayvon Martin, it was one of the first times that

story had been reached on a global scale. It was something even though we didn't have video, it was something

that everybody heard about. We were all watching the NBA All Star Game and then we all heard the call when we heard the screens and the gunshots, and I just remember that was like my first second year teaching, having to go to work the next day with that weight on me was something I just couldn't really fathom the only other time I had heard something like that or seeing something similar was with the Oscar Grant situation and I was still in co it. So we can

go to class and talk about it. So for me is I don't care what I have planned today. My mindset, my kids mindset is the most important thing right now. And again that's something that we're doing often discussing school. We have physical education, but not mental education. So I went there and it was like a spurred the moment thing. And maybe that's why I think I'm I'd be able to talk about things on the drop of a dime because I just said, what can I do to make

this a real to them? So I grabbed the box and I typed up a sheet real quick, and it was like, basically, you know, you know what it what it means to be trade von Martin, what it means to be a black young man, what it means to be a black young lady. And it was a powerful demonstration, and they put these in the boxing. It was something

that they were able to embrace. But I always remember that student of mine adamantly against it because he's like well, look, we you know, our dudes dying every day in the streets. Why does this matter to me? Why should I care? And I really distinctively remember hearing that, because, for one, it did make me even question that because we're hearing

about all the death in Chicago. There was a dairy and our situation, Blair Hope situation, and somebody is caught on camera with the c T A buss and everything, and I really have to think about it. And then you know, you hear that all the time, now what about black on black crime? And I had to come to the conclusion to let him know, it's an entire system,

young man. What you see happen in tray Von Martin and George Zimmerman is the same reason why you walk and get killed in your neighborhood and nobody cares, the same reason why guns and drugs are allowed to be funneled into your neighborhood without anybody care. But just to wrap it up and bring it back around, I just felt that they had to see something and feels something to let them know what they are and what they aren't.

Because when they put up those gun range pictures of Trayvon Martin with a hoodie and they put up a picture of him grimace and like a child having fun, as if that was something bad, or they tried to talk about him with marijuana used just to demonize him. It's just age old pattern of trying to criminalize us to justify their pernicious activity. So I felt like that was like my the beginning of me saying, you know what, whenever we have something like this happened, we're talking about

it right now. The lesson will happen eventually, But what was the actual lesson? What did you actually have them do? So they had it was a sheet of paper and they had to write down, you know, I am Trey von Martin. Then they put a bunch of positive adjectives under that, so it was something that they can see. You know, it's something that I do even now when I'm speaking, it's who are you actually? The media says you're this, Yeah, but you are like Tray Von Martin,

you are actually this. And just because that man wanted to follow you home, and just because that person thought you were a criminal, that is not You are not the archetype. You don't actually fit the profile. And they were actually able to put this in a box, and it was something that they can see as you take it out afterwards, you are someone who actually is outside of that box, that paradigmin that stereotype that lesson upbout

the trade Von Martin. I think about what's going on in the world today and I feel like I could be wrong, but I feel like it's something that still applies today. Do you still use that in the classroom today? You're accurate in the fact that it's still irrelevant. Restructured it quite quite a bit now because of the thing,

of course is digital and virtual right now. But it's still something I do and because I speak to a lot of kids now in the area across the country, I'll do something similar with that activity, especially if I'm working with a smaller group. And I guess the most disheartening thing is the fact that it is very relevant and I think we can see it now more than ever because and I've had to stop myself. I don't watch those videos anymore because it does something to my psyche.

But again, if our kids are always seeing this and then they're watching, you know, violent movies, playing violent video games, again, juxtaposed that to what the media portrays us as athletes and criminals, and we're all in a sense, we're often choosing that same thing on our own will. So it's definitely relevant unfortunately, but I'm hoping that it it impacts us in a way that allows us to research our

history more and portray ourselves differently too. And what's even more sad is that, now look at all the different names that you can insert into that lesson. Besides Trayvon Martin, you can use George Floyd, you can use any number of names. So it's just really discardening. And that's that's still a small percentage of all of all, you know, and that's I think that's what a lot of people also don't realize. That could be like ten of what

what has really transpired with police mutality. We only know those because that was captured on film. It was captured on film. Absolutely. So now I want to move on to discuss the hate crime that you and your wife were victims of. Tell us a little bit about that earnest and you said that actually went viral in the media. Can you describe the incident for us? Yeah, So, just

to provide some context, it was four years ago. My wife and I had just gotten back from Jamaica, and it was like around the time of July, there have been a lot of incidents just now. There was Philando Castile who was shot on Facebook Live. There was Elton Sterling who was murdered for selling bootleg CDs in Louisiana. So we wanted to take our mind off of that hysteria. And then we also knew in the back of our head that we had to go back to school as

soon as teachers. So the a lot of thirty if we go to this festival in Chicago, and then we're having a great time as music, as you know, a

lot of people, as food, all of that. So towards the end of the event, we're decided to head out and I noticed there was an open being bad game that's called cornhole, So usually at a function like this you can't really find that station being open, so I realized that we walked over there, I noticed they only had one being bag, so that was the issue, of course. So I looked to my left and then I noticed there's a group of four people too black and two white,

and they had about fifteen of them. So my mind, I'm thinking, okay, they grabbed it because nobody else was there, but now we're here, maybe they'll offer them. So we're looking for some other ones and they didn't do anything. A few minutes later, somebody throws when it goes very far. My wife and are looking at each other because it

went so far. It was in the other area where people were sitting, and they didn't grab it after about five or six minutes, So my wife goes over there to grab it, and our mindset is we all paid to get in here. We didn't bring this game, so you didn't grab you didn't grab it, so it's ours, you know. So she grabs it, and as soon as she comes back over the area, there's a white lady from that group who like approaches us as if she

was about to attack us. Instantly, she walks over there and she started screaming at us and and saying that you could have just asked to play, and it was a very hostile tone. Same thing we get on our like our students. They'll talk back to some cheechers like because they sense an attitude. So I sensed the attitude. My wife is standing right beside me on my left hand side, and I'm like, no, you're not getting it. Back, that's disrespectful. And then she calls my wife a hole,

and that's just like, you went up another level. Now you're you're really tripping. You don't lost your line. And and then at that point, her black friends started to get closer to us, and she's calling over for the police. So again in my mind, Philando cast Steele, Outside Sterling, Trey Von Martin, Sandra Blane, all of these people, and she's calling it cops over and then she begins to call us the N word over and over. You're acting like a bunch of niggers. So in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay,

did she really just call us that over this? So I know my rights. I know somebody you can't actually say that, unfortunately, depending on the tone. So I knew it wasn't against the law. So my mindset was as a black person, really my defense is recording it to document and show the world who this person is so we can hopefully avoid her in all aspects of life. So I take out my phone, she slaps it out

my hand and we're yelling at each other. I pick it up luckily and fell in the grass, and I stopped the press record again, and she's going crazy, and I'm like, give me your name, give me everything, because you obviously don't care that it's on camera. And again her black friends are coming closer, her white friends all the way in the back. Then he walked towards us, and then she turns and she spits on us. And

that was the beginning of the end. And you actually were able to take this to court where you not so what happened was after that event. Not to to spoil it too much for the reader, but so I take it, I get him, I go on my car. We're about to leave with just lerious at this point because we don't understand what just happened. I found out that I had it on a camera, so I put the videos together, posted it online. By the time we got home, about an hour away, forty thousand views, fifty

thou views. We had all the information that was by now October first found a police report. She gets arrested within two months, two and a half months or whatever, and I started the long process. But everything I got came from people online, black, white, Hispanic, who came together, and they also even knew her from high school. Several of these people who said she was just as negative, just as toxic and racist in the past, and they were glad to help me out. So we took it

to the court October. You know, it's interesting that she was there with other black people who did not intervene. That is troubling. That is troubling, John, What what did you want to say about that? I see you then, Sha, That's when he was when he settled his story. That's the first thing that you know, as he says, and her black friends. And in my head, I'm like, what kind of black friends does she have that's gonna let her?

You know, first and foremost, I wouldn't even if I had a friend that was just acting crazy in public, I would pull them to the side and be like, you need to get your life right fast. But on top of that, for to get belligerent enough to call racial slurs and then to actually spit on someone, for her to allow her to spit on someone that is one of your people, again, it goes to that psyche of this is supposed to your friend. They just spat on someone of your race and called them derogatory things

regarding your race. But you just sitting You just sat and stood there. So what does that what does this say just about the psyche of a lot of black people and how they handle things. You know, I think sometimes they probably were just as traumatized as Earnest and you know, and just didn't know what to do. And it also brings up like just the disconnect that we have as a community. That's the only term I can think of, because I thought about this last night, like

what is the word that I'm looking for? And I can just come up with disconnect? But is it? Is there something? Is there another term that you guys can think of. Yeah, it's absolute assimilation, I believe looking at those two individuals now on hindsight, because again I'm somebody who I'm there for us regardless, So I just couldn't believe and you can tell them my voice, but I think that some of us believe that by hanging with people of another race, which is fine, but I think

sometimes we lose ourselves with that. If you're not careful, like to me, if you don't know who you are, what do you bring into the table. So for them, they probably thought by kicking it with her, they weren't quote unquote black anymore. And you know what really appaul me was the black brother because he was the only guy in that click. So I'm I'm looking at him really the whole I'm looking like, dude, are you gonna

do something? Are you gonna say something? And then the lady on the side of the black friend, she was like, it didn't boy, it doesn't bother me. That means that you're trying to remove yourself from this experience. I don't care how you talk, how you look, whatever, that's fine, but you're still black in this country. It's beautiful. But to them it's not always that way. And for them to make an excuse to me show like you said that disconnect and I steer away from calling people, you know,

derogatory names like that. But it's to me, you're selling out your culture to try to act with yes to somebody else's culture that doesn't really want you well. And the problem that we that we run into is that being forget that. From a very young age, us as black individuals in America are taught in program to be white adjacent. We're not talked to Peo, black to Jason.

We're talked to be white as Jason. So we in in in retrospect, you can't be surprised that these black people allow this white person to do what she did, because we're programmed to be white adjacent. Describe what you mean by white adjacent adhering to European standards in order

to navigate through society safely and efficiently. And we're taught at a very young age to speak a certain way, to act a certain way, you know, not to be threatening to to white individuals, you know, of course, and a lot of it was done because our parents wanted us to be safe and they wanted us to excel. But in the in the same at the same time, a lot of times they scented our growth as black people,

learning to love ourselves in the process. And this brings up the topic that you describe ernest as racial battle fatigue, which some people may just describe as PTSD. But no matter what the label is, it creates a slippery slope when it comes to mental health in the black community. Talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that. Definitely no I got that turn from my brother Phelipe Matthews and of course shout out the Dr

Jordi de Grews with post traumatic slave syndrome. It's something It's something that discusses how as we traversed through American society, we often deal with racism, microaggressions, overt aggressions constantly throughout our life. Like we're acting, we're fighting as soon as you walk out the door. You're fighting, whether it be eventually or whether it be something that's actually happening to you, and you just become so depressed to a level whereas

I can't do anything to survive and get by. If you think about the black experience, whether you live in the suburbs, whether you live in a black urban area or whatever you're you're dealing with it, You're dealing with constantly being outside, I promise you, Like when I used to go for a jig in my suburban area right now, in the back of my mind was always it's something gonna happen to me, or it was always I need to stay in my subdivision and I'm going to or

if when I'm running, I'm going to stay on the busy road because if I go down somebody else just because I want to see something different, they might say I've never seen that, dude. Let me call somebody, and then that fear gets confirmed with the mod arevery and again racial battle fatigued. What can I do? Where can I go? It's almost something that again leads to learn helplessness. Why why should I even try? And the problem with this is it's not that we don't all deal with it.

Our kids don't realize they're dealing with it. It's like you're getting it hit and you're getting knocked into a corner boxing and you can't see where the punch is coming from. Now, if you've got like Tyson in front of me, if I can see him, at least I can run from it. Yeah. So take all of that and put on top of it the lack of jobs, you know what I mean, now, the pandemic, you know. So there's the stress just from daily life in the

black community. And that's why I think it's so importan for us to know our history because I'm at a point now unfortunately when I see these stories happen again. I don't want to say none, because I do feel it, but I'm not surprised. It's like you said before one of the posts in the book, like I understand these patterns. I don't expect this this country to operate differently when

they've adapted in every way. Slavery so called ins and transition to share cropping, you know, Jim Crow so called is a transition to mass incarceration, and now we're dealing with something else on a different level. So it's just something that we have to understand these patterns. So it's not that we won't feel bad, but it will say, look, this is gonna happen here, so we need to prepare for the inevitability and also at the same time build

ourselves and build our community up. And that's what you know, That's why I think the work that both of you are doing is just so important, so important. Why do you feel like it's important to mentor our black youth? Both of you. John, Let's start with you. We live in a society now where it is easy, see to be this individual you know, we're in a very individualist society.

It can be an oxymoron because we live this society where everybody is for themselves and they talk about how great I'm doing until something bad happens and then they reach for the community and say where is the community? But they spent the whole life saying I'm an individual, so I don't need the community. Until you need them. And so I think that we need to start looking back at the community as a whole and saying where

can I chip in. I know that it can be overwhelming because there's so much to do you you and you end up becoming paralyzed with the paradox of choice. There's so many choices that you could take that you just sit and look at all of them. It's like watching like turning on Netflix and scrolling through for forty five minutes trying to figure out what you're gonna watch,

and then just turning it off. Let me just let me just interject my feeling in this though, because I feel almost like there's so much devastation in the community. There's so much going on that you don't know where to beget. You don't know how to help, you don't know what you should be doing. Like you're just overwhelmed because there's just you feel like things are just falling apart. Yes, I think what you what we have to do is to just say what knowledge do I have that I

can share? Everybody knows something, you know. You don't have to know everything. You just have to know something and share it. You know, share your expertise, do work on this little thing. You know, I don't have all the answers, but what I do know about I know about dance. I know how it connects people. I know how people

react to it and how it's therapy. I also know now that I've lived in New York and I've dealt, you know, wills and deals and dealt with people from all different walks of life and education levels that are

black children, specifically, are the sentences of black freedman. A lot of them have the grades to go to top schools and are not sent So I'm saying, hey, I'm going in to let these children know you are worthy to go to these schools, and you should be applying to them, because it could be the difference between a child and not a child, but a young adult at two years old making fifty thousand dollars coming out with

a college degree or eighty thousand dollars. And with that eighty thousand dollars, there's a lot more they can do for their community. And I think John is a perfect example of what we mean by mentoring, because so when we met again, this man flew in like he flew in. He wasn't getting paid. He flew in. We met, we set up a date, and you couldn't hear a pin drop, Like we're talking thirty forty kids all and he's just he's sitting down, just talking. It's you know, it's like

it's like an elder in the community. Everybody's gathered around and they were hanging on to every single word. So it became something where is okay, I'm gonna have you come back again. So then we started pulling kids. We gave him, you know, permission, slips, pulled him out of class. Now we're gonna talk to him during the school they did to meet a different target group, and it became just a thing where it's like now school is remote, he's in New York. We're meeting over zoom with our

Black student Union. He wanted to come in with those meetings as well. So it was just something where you can see the difference he made, and he's hunt down these kids, he's reaching out to him, he's talking to him on his own personal time. And that's the testament to what we mean when it says give back to where you're from, because it truly takes a village. What were you working on, John before the pandemic. I was just last November. I had finally brought to fruition my

nonprofit called Step into the Light. And when I first started that program, it was to create a Steppers program for black youth, to take a hundred black kids in my city of Jolia, Illinois and teach them to dance with one another. Again, that is one of the things that we lost, unfortunately to hip hop. You know, when hip hop began to usher in, it just used the idea of partnered hand dancing, you know, and it turned to phase it on out. And so I realized that

this dance number one is healing to one another. These kids need to connect because there is a social disconnect because of social media. They don't know how to interact with one another and they and so when you shake hands, when you hug one another, and when you dance with one another, it brings more of a community. But then

COVID happened there with that other window. So then I started my program next level, where my job is to make sure that black youth in this city, specifically the descendants of black freedmen, are making our given counsel if you will, and guidance when it's time to choose careers and choose higher education. Make sure that they have access to apprenticeships and internships and and all that is available because a lot of times they just don't know what's

out there. So I was gonna say, not only are you educating the kids, but you have to educate the parents too, because they just don't have the information. You really have to educate the parents first, because a lot

of parents don't understand how bright their child is. Sometimes it's it's I've seen time and time again where parents will work day and night to provide everything for their child, and their child will have straight a's and bees high three point four point grade proint average, and then just send them to any school or even a junior college, not realizing that they could go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Howard University Florida and them, you know, some of the

top schools across the country that are ready and waiting for them, but they're the kids are not being sent ernest, How do you feel like since the pandemic, how have you been able to maintain your relationships with your students? How is that working for you? Having to teach online? Admittedly, it's been very difficult. It's actually a couple of different phases.

The first time was in March, of course, when everything shut down and we were struggling to get our kids, you know, show up and turn their work, and we weren't really sure what that Zoom schedule was gonna look like. And that was the new school year has started and we're like four weeks in. We have a consistent schedule. And I will say this, you just never know what you're being prepared for because I have been involved. It's um mentoring group, this this accountability group, I should say.

And we would get up on Zoom every morning breathe University, and we would talk about our goals and things like that. And I have been doing that since teen. So now when I'm on Zoom every morning with these kids for four or five hours, it was really nothing for me to switch in terms of getting them engage, finding different ways to connect, you know, playing music through my speaker. I'm allowning with them to pick the music that we play. I got, you know, I have a bill that I

ring every time the class starts. So I got my whole little setup there. So now I will say this down. The issue is I bring the energy. But the issue is you miss out on that connection. I can't high five a kid. I can't. Yeah, there are certain kids that still don't want to show their face. So I'm finding different ways to be creative. I'm telling kids, Okay, let's play a game. Everybody screen off. Now, if you

can't relate to this, turn your screen on. They get caught up and they're like old, snap, gotta cut it back off. So just different ways like that and being able to conference with them helps. But I will say this, it's an empty feeling because at the end of the day you're not able to have that conversation with them as they leave, you're not able to see your former kids in the hallway, and when that last bill rings metaphorically, you're just sitting in your office like okay. And I've

shared this with John a lot. This man. It's rough. It's rough. It's really rough. And I will say the only benefit is you do give a little more time in the morning and your day ends early. But with that said, it adds another weapon to our repertoire because if we can reach kids this way, to me, we can do anything as a community, you know, And I really have to give both of you. Kudos, you know for the work that you're doing. I really do because

it is so important. Like you know, I don't want to sound corny, but the kids are our future, like for real, you know, and we've got to take care of them. And I want you to go back a little bit, Earnest, just and talk about how because when you first enter college, you you didn't go to college to become a teacher, So how did that become your path? Yeah? So I was actually I was thinking about this yesterday.

The reason why I didn't fully succumb to wanting to be an athlete, although for a big part of my life I did want to be a basketball player. I always had the parallel narrative to me was you're going to college. My parents said, you're going to college. You're going to college. So whether you play sports or whatever, you're going to school. So once those hoop dreams, Thistle, I still know what was going knew I was going to school, but it was like what am I about

to pick? What am I going to study? Now? Just so happens, my mom is an educator, you know, you know, my others an educator, So I have a I come from a lineage of people who taught in and believe in education. But I still wasn't thinking about it. My mindset was I'm the friend people called to vent and I just listened. I say, yeah, uh huh, I understand, yep, uh huh. So I'm like, maybe I would be a good psychologist. You know, I didn't know, you know, and for lack of I would say like Dr Phil didn't

look like me. But I on on TV, so I'm like, hey, that might work, So maybe a psychologist. So I went to school first semester. I'm doing horrible and I'm too involved and you know, I'm going to parties. I'm playing basketball, still kicking it with my friends, were playing video games, have a tournaments. I mean, it's just everything. And then when I have a test, I'll look at my notes like literally, I look at them, I read them over and I say, I'm ready. Now. I worked in high school,

but I'm taking tests, and I promise you. In my mad class, my grade got lower every single test, and then and then and she will put your grade like at the top so you can see yourself just flunking. And then in my psychology class, which is my major, I wasn't doing well either, and I was meeting with the professor. So after I did bad, I was on probation. I started to reevaluate some things. The disappointment. I have

more disappointment than myself than my family did. In some ways, I feel like they knew I would bounce back, but I didn't know if I believe that honestly. So I began to think about what can I do? So I

dropped my major. I started taking history black history courses out of curiosity and from I promise you, from that moment, I fell in love because every question I had that my parents couldn't necessarily answer or the encyclopedia couldn't, my professor was saying it, Professor Lane, Professor Abdual outcome out,

and it was like, Wow, this is it. I need to be the person standing in front of them on that stage telling kids that you are great, you come from royalty, and this is what happened to us, this was the this is how they intervened in our progress,

but this is what we need to do. And from that moment, I was sold, and I felt like the best way for me to give back to my community was to share information and that's just teaching, I mean, and you could be an educator in various forms, like even having a podcast as you see you want to add to that because at the end of the day, I just feel, you know, let's get back to what this What for me, what the gist of the book was for me, was the importance of knowing and understanding

our Black history, knowing and understanding that we don't know who we are. We don't know about this and that's by design, you know. We we were brought over here from all over the place. And because all of that history, all we get in school, all we got in school was American history that started with slavery. But that's not Black history. Black history does not start with slavery. And that is so important in developing and understanding and a

sense of pride and who we are. And I just feel like once we have that, that will help, you know, guide us, you know, into living our lives differently and understand if we understand who we are as a people, as a culture, and it is not a slave. That's not all Black history is. It's not. And that's part of the problem because even here in America, a lot of American culture is black culture because we created it

and it was taken from us. So getting a child to know, yes, about black history, what happened before slavery, but also to have a full, truthful understanding of what happened while we were here in North America, because there's a lot that happened here that they don't talk about and that we are not aware of. You know, we are made to believe in and perceived as the black people that don't have a culture, but we very much

have a culture. This culture, our culture built, and our innovation and our resilience and our artistry built this country. All American music that was made in this America in America derives from black music created by us. You know. Actually, me and Mr Kram were just talking about the fact that most people black and white, we'll look at the banjo and say, oh, they played that in country music, But the banjos from Africa, that is an African instrument

that in country music. We helped create that music, you know, even though we don't really associated and that is part of our American history as black people. So a lot all that has been kept from us in its time. To awaken all that information, if you will, and when kids start to understand it and know it, they have the foundation to stand on, to go out into the

world with their chests out and to reach high. So I want to go back just a little bit, just because we were talking about education and mentoring and since COVID, since the pandemic, you know, the disparity in the education system is so prevalent. So now you have you know, parents trying to teach their students at home, teach their

kids at home, kids not having laptops. You want to speak on that earnest, like how difficult that must be for particularly the African American community that you know don't have the equipment, and you know that they need to make to make it happen. Definitely, I think what COVID did more than anything is it exposed America even more than it was already being exposed. When everything had to stop. It was almost like that burglar in the night and all of a sudden, the lights come on and he's

just sitting there. You got me. I've been taking everything out your pocket, you know, I've been taking everything out your room, all your jewelry. It's like these again. From fo up until this point, I think people have to really understand that these they are law. This whole system is built on making us believe that we are inferior no other group of people, like all these traps are

it's on. We're on the track, and all the traps are set up down and your path on the track, your path and your path only not to say other groups haven't had certain hurdles, but we're talking every decade, every president, they're they're putting up certain barriers to stop us from progressing. And yet and still we persevere. But still there's a system, and we're only thirteen cent of the population, so it's very difficult. We're able to see

now with COVID the health disparities. Now, let's talk about the school system and what they're feeding our kids that's not top of the line food. And then when they leave where they're going to the corner store, the chicken shop, the year roll place. You know that then that there aren't places in our neighborhood that are actually feeding us. And we're talking spiritually, mentally all of that type of stuff. We're talking about a school system that has not adapted

since the early nineteen hundreds. If you look at a picture of schooling in like compared to now, kids are sitting down, you know, kids are fifty minutes or forty five minutes like that. That's unbearable. I can't it's because I'll tell my students when we're doing zoom, I tell my students, I gotta stand up for a second. I don't know how y'all do it all day. You know, we've had issues where even in Chicago where I'm from, where the previous mayor round and Manual closed fifty schools

in about a year. So like these disparities were there, but people were because we don't care that much as a society as a whole until we see the end result, until we see the tumor. But the cancer has been simmering. We have old books. When I was student teaching, I was using economics books from the eighties and I started student teaching in two thousand and ten. Like when we started remote learning, all of these kids have to go pick up tablets because they don't always have access to

these things in their neighborhood, in their schools. So to me, COVID has exposed us and we cannot. We have to make sure that we keep the cover off of and now keep the light on the burglar, and let's make sure that we replace these institutions with something that's actually equitable, because the disparity was already there, particularly between public school and private school, and now it's just worse. Exactly exactly, Yeah, yeah,

we talked about it a little bit. But even if you don't have a big platform, what are the ways that you can still contribute besides giving monetarily. That's a great question. And again I'm going to circle back to a conversation that I had with John. I'm sure he's gonna chime in, but I believe that I think that sometimes we create hurdles that even there in terms of giving back. So anybody can sign up for a local nonprofit organization to mentor somebody you can yourself, contact your

old school. Let me just say, let me just say that I did try to do that, I did not do well. So that's what I'm asking, What are the other ways that we can contribute because my experience with mentoring did not go well? You know, I just I just found out my my my sister was in a mentoring program and I tried to participate in that, and I just I didn't do well with it. I'm not somebody who's very patient and you know, you know, I'm not necessarily a kid friendly kind of person, and these

were like preteen teenagers. Yeah, and I didn't do well. You know, you also have to know what you're what you're abilities, your capabilities and limitations are, because because everything is not for you exactly exactly, you have to know. So even if you might not do well one on one, but you might be called in on like a panel of three or four people, you know, to talk to a group and just talk about your experiences, you might

do well in that setting. You know, what I think to understand is that your story is actually twenty times more valuable than any money that you give. People need to hear people. These kids need to hear stories from people that look like them. So because children believe what

they see. And so when they see someone that has made it out and made something of themselves and they talk about you know, the ins and outs and you know, mistakes they made and in opportunities they were given that they took, well, then they say it's possible for me. Good point it was. This was such a great conversation. Really, thank you guys so much. Is there any last comments that you want to make before I move on to the last part of this podcast, Show up, put your

shoes on, and show up. I like that. I like that Earnest education begins at home. We have to take a hundred percent accountability because we cannot expect them to do better when we've seen the past. We've seen the rap sheet over the course over four a hundred years. So now let's do what we gotta do. There you go. So it's now time for my favorite segment. Wouldn't you like to know where you answer three rapid fire questions with the first phrase that comes to your mind. Okay,

We're gonna start with you, John. What books are you currently reading? What books? I'm actually currently reading a Black History Saved My Life And the next book and read is Cast, which is by the next book by Isabel Bookerson that is on my list. What about you, Earnest? Of course I'm reading Black History Saved My Life. And by the way, everybody, the book is available on Amazon, and truly speaking, I really this is a book that I recommend that black families read, particularly if you have

preteens and teenagers. It's a book that you can actually read with your child because it is really important. Go ahead, Yeah, I just got finished reading Stamped. I'm also reading that non violent stuff and gets You Killed, which provides a counter narrative to the non violent protests. It just gives you a more nuanced view of how we were able to gain liberation throughout the American history. Interesting. Cool? Okay, John,

what's a motto you live by? We all play the fool, and we will play different fools throughout our lifetime, but the goal is never to play the same fool twice. Who are you better? Come for it? There we go? I love that. Say that again. We all played the fool, and we will play different types of fools throughout our lifetime, but the goal is never to play the same fool twice. Ernest,

what's the matter you live by? That's a hard act to follow, but for me, it is if you don't know who you are, anyone can name you, and if anyone can name you your answer to anything. I like that too. That's a good one. Wow. Yeah, y'all one point today. Okay, all right, So the last and final question, John, what's one thing you want to get off your chest? One thing that I want to get off my chest vote during the local elections like you vote during the

huge presidential elections. People do not understand that, you know, there's actually a lot of miseducation. A lot of our people feel that because they feel that the presidential election is rigged. It all voting is rigged, and because of electoral college and so on and so forth. But elections don't have anything to do with the electoral college. It is by popular vote, and so we need people to

show up. And I think it is very um disheartening that people can talk all day about the president and of course the upper realm of politics, but they don't know who the people, the names of the people on their city council or their school board, you know that are making decisions that affect their lives directly every day. Show your asses up to the local election, earnest one thing you want to get off your chest. Yeah, I would definitely echo that we have to turn up in

our county where we both live. Turnout. Actually it's probably a little bit less than I think it might be between ten and and besides that, I would just say we have to vote for ourselves every day. So in between vote and every two years, every four years or

six years for the Senate. We have to make sure that we have the same expectations for ourselves in our household, in our community, and again, more than any other time in history, we have to really understand the importance of knowing who we are, knowing our place and black people. If you listening to this, you are amazing, You are regal, you are bold, you are beautiful, and we can get through this, and we will get through this. We just have to believe it and keep on pushing. Absolutely, Thank

you guys so much. Once again, this was absolutely a pressure pleasure. John and Ernest. Before we wrap up, please tell my listens where they can find you on social media and anything you have you want to highlight that's coming up for either one of you. Okay, I'll start, but you can find me on Instagram and my I G account is at sign j O h N l u c A S number four real so John Lucas

for real. And you can also check out my nonprofit website which is www dot step letter in number two the lights dot com that is st e p letter in number two the light dot com. And for myself, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at m R Cram three. I'm on Facebook at m R Cram with three Eyes for the third. You can also visit my website Ernest Cram dot com. You can also find

me on the local PBS Divided We Fall show. I think that would be a great show for people to watch for the upcoming election and showing people from the left and the right coming together and having conversations. And you can hopefully find me at your local school or I guess local zoom because I like to call myself for a black history advocate, you know, a black history preacher maybe, but you can find me. So you have a program coming up on PBS. I was a cast

member on the show called The Body We Fall. We recorded it like last year, but January twenty nineteen, and it's about us having conversations with people on the other side of the eye. So we can probably find that one demand. You can google it and to pop up. It's been showing a different cities since April. Awesome, all right, guys, thank you so much. Thank you once again to my

guests John Lucas and Ernest Krim. The third, I just want to remind you that Black History Saved My Life is available on Amazon dot com and for my takeaways from this episode, I want to read another passage from ernest book, and to me, this is probably the passage that resonated the very most to me after having read the entire book. The Birthplates of all Mankind Africa. Make sure they are proud of it so they don't associate

it with poverty, starving children and aids. Teach them that they are equal, not in theory or to all human beings, regardless of color. Teach them to love their bronze colored skin and gloriously nappy hair because it is a gift from God, a result of our ability to adapt biologically. Teach them to love one another and let them know that they are entitled to greatness, the type of greatness that does not begin or end with high end fashion

or other material items. If you're white, teach your children that they aren't better than anybody and that they aren't entitled to something just because of their skin color. Teach them about a heritage and ancestry that extends beyond the label of whiteness. Teach them their European history and how its roots extend to African civilization. They'll learn about the supposed greatness of America by proxy as soon as they walk into a school, turn on the TV, or attend

the sporting event. So teach them about the repulsive history of this country that lives in the shadows, the history that made Hit the crowd to cite America as an inspiration for his treatment of the Jews. I want to see America evolved to being better than this, but we must be honest and admit that the tree has not made it to that point yet, will it ever. So we understand why we don't know our true history. That is all by design, but now it's our responsibility to

learn it for ourselves and pass it on. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, be sure to rate and review the episode. Follow me on my Instagram at Gammy Nards to share with me your thoughts on the episode. I'm here, I'm talking, and I'm listening, and as always, folks, stay grateful positively. Gam is produced by Westbrook Audio. Executive producers Adrian vam Bilnaris, Jada Pinkett Smith, Amanda Brown, and Ballon Jetho, Co executive producer Sam Hotel, Associate producer Erica Ron and

Crystal Devon's editor and mixer Calvin Baylifft. Positively, gam is in partnership with Art nineteen. That's about prot