You still need to know how to do finger waves and and and Roller says not to say depending on what part you are in the contract. I was getting Ray say, I don't talk about finger waves. Finger waves are huge in Baltimore. Still Style is still to be trying to give me finger ways, and I'm like, no, I do not want finger waves. I hate them. We can see and she does it very well. What's up, everybody?
I'm Gammy and this is positively gam Every week I have raw, in depth conversations with inspirational people pushing for change on everything from aging, relationships, politics, wellness, to the current issues facing the black community. In this episode, we're going to continue my discussion on black hair with Jay Lasha and Stacy Ciceron. So if you miss part one, check out the previous episode where we dive into the history of black hair. So I want to welcome back
to part two of our conversation on black hair. We have Jay Lasher once again and Stacy Cisseron. Welcome back, ladies, Thank you for joining me again. Hey, thanks for having us. I want to talk about hair care. Let's start with you, Stacy. When I think about hair care, I think about spiritual practices. I also think about self care as a young man, a young woman, and I'm thinking that the audience is mostly women, but I never like to leave my guys
out because they into it. Two honey, okay, But self care on a spiritual level is so important, and self care on a physical level is so important. And as I'm getting old and trying to preserve the sexy honey, it's becoming quite obvious that it takes education and takes knowledge, it takes entrust. And where does this interest really come from? You know, is it being modeled to us? Are we learning it in schools? Are we learning it from friends? Are we learning it on social media? It really is
something that we have to step up and do. And in our last conversation we spoke about where did this come from? Is this something that we wanted to do on our own or were just trying to impress people, or is this something we want to do for self? And it built down to self this. Your body is your temple, like you said, your hair is your crown.
And if you can look at self care in that way, it should definitely trigger some type of interest in Europe on your behalf, not you, but us as a whole to want to be able to elevate that, to connect with ourselves and to really embrace our personal powers. So hair care for me, it's it's bigger than just aesthetics. It's about connecting with yourself and honoring yourself. What do you think, Jay, because I have to say that personally, I think that I've taken my hair for granted. I'm
gonna be honest about it. I've never it's hair, my hair. You cut it off, it'll grow back. That's always been my my my thinking about my hair. I never really had an issue with my hair growing. I never had that much concern about my hair because it pretty much did you know, I wanted it to do. I had really long hair growing up until I was about I don't know, in my thirties. I did the whole permit
to keep it managed. I wish that I had the amount of product that we have now to help manage hair, because if I think, if I had known better, I would have done differently. But all I knew was too you got a lot of hair on your head, you need to permit so that you can manage it. And once you start that perming, it changes the texture of your hair, So then your hair just bec um this street. And now I stopped permiting my hair years ago because I got tired of permanent. I cut it off, and
so then you don't have to permit. But then, like I talked about all the dying, just once again, the dying and the chemicals that are in dye will change the texture of your hair. And so I just don't think that I ever really cared that much about my hair. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because that's a whole different conversation that we're having based on the
needs based on different hair types. Whereas queerly hair has need for moisture, has a need it's very fragile, although it has a course appearance, it needs its own product, it needs its own care, and whereas wavy and pearly here has different needs. So yeah, that might be something that you that needed little maintenance. But my point is he even outside of styling or having some kind of regiment, it is taking care of yourself and your hair is
a part of that. Because the other part of the conversation is that, yeah, you could have taken it for granted because you didn't have the extra drama of having a coiled hair. Yeah. Yeah, Like my journey is very different than Willows m m yeah, I would say in this regard, I do feel pretty privileged. And it's interesting to say this because again, like having someone from the beginning who understood how to take care of my hair in its natural state. It I didn't realize that until
you ask this question. Honestly, how that set me up for a completely different as a black girl and black woman. I didn't even pay attention to that, And that is something I took for having a woman my mother who could lay me across her lap bray my hair. Know what products? Do you know? I water to make it squiable? No, exactly what it is to make it beautiful and healthy and and easy. So I've always experienced my hair, not always mostly most of my life I experienced my hair
is something that I could manage and do. I will say the period that I relaxed my hair and then went natural, relax or does change our texture. And so there were several years where even while it was natural, it had to grow out from whatever seek into my scalt because it was still affecting how it came out, and so it made it rougher, but it made it
even more brittle. So I had to learn a lot about how to eat, how to nurture my hair, like I had to nurse it back to life over several years to get it to a place where it could be healthy. And I think the other thing stazy. You and I talked a little bit about the natural hair boom that happened from on. There were only small communities that made their own homemade products. So we're coming of age.
I'm coming of age in a time where in the beginning the only thing that was available was like relaxers and and chemically based products for straightening care. There's a lot available for black hair in its natural stage. So we're experimenting trying to use those products on our natural hair, and it's not working. And so I had frustration point been too, because it wasn't I'm like, what's going on? This is not my hair is not softened. But and
so I just thought I had quote unquote bad. Oh. It's actually really soft and it's actually very it's more manageable this way. But I had to grow it out. I had to be differently. So it is a physical process, for sure. It's definitely also in spiritual process. Because the other thing we didn't talk about this, but I'll mention it hairstylence. Oh, and making sure that you have a hairstylist, because there's a good prince of hairstyle ists, the people
who really understand your hands. It's really critical. Even when we go back to our ancestral roots. Again, the hairstyleist was a sacred person in the tribe. They were considered the most honest and trusted person, and they're almost like a priest in our history. And if you think about today, think about how sacred we hold our hairstyle. Yes, hairstyles. Some of us will fly, I will fly. My hairstylence
is here. And so having someone who is in relation with you in a way that there's an intimate relationship with your hands. Everybody's hair is different. There isn't a such thing as oh, her hair is just like. No, there might be some similarities, but there are differences and we have to understand those. Now, this is a good perfect question for me and what happens to our hair as we age. There's again that's no one size fits all.
And so with that because different people are affected by different things, so as we get older, our bodies are depleting itself at a more rapid rate of vitamins and nutrients, and we're losing different things that are sometimes out of our control, whether it is hereditary, whether it's hormones, whether it's stress related. And let's let's face it, I know I'll pe from my household. Majority of us in our
household are not getting the proper nutrients through food. So aging, the effects of aging is ask for the person takes care of themselves. So you find that sometimes people are getting thinning. As the gray hair or the white hair comes in, it becomes way more resistant. It doesn't want to take cut, it doesn't want to take color, doesn't want to take style. So the main two things that are happening hereditarily, they are suffering from androgenetic alopecia or
male pattern or female pattern balnus. So you'll start to see some thinning in the crown or in the front up their hair or even their hairlines. Some medications for high blood pressure diabetes are causing god. Low iron is also causing God. And these are some things that that people are going through. As their agent, So am I gonna be put in the position where I have no choice but to stop dying in my hair. Okay, time
will tell, So it may and it may come. It may come where you don't have the hair, don't want to be colored, and will be for us to make a decision. But hopefully if that time comes, you would already be ready to see, be ready to submit. Yeah, you're like, you know what. I was gonna do it anyway. Okay, well we're gonna pray on that. Let me tell you.
Can I just tell you, although the gray or white hair may be resistant to some lifting colors, you can do a lot of fun colors with gray hair, like those pastel pinks, blues, purples, like you could be the hot mom blue before. I've done blue before, and I actually tried pink, but I looked like I was going to the circus. I had to take that out immediately. It just did not work, and I probably was the wrong color pink, but I just I didn't have the
patients to even try to tone it down. I was like, no, just take it out. But the blue worth I actually like the pale blue. And my sister has gone my sister has gone lavender on some skin tones. It's just perfect. If you have a cool skin tone. Sometimes the blue looks good. If you have a warmer skin tone, sometimes a rusty like a pasto orange. Maybe you got a summer color, a little winter color. Yeah, yeah, Now Stacy talked to us about because there's this way of identifying
your texture of hair for what is that. It's a language that started in the natural hair community. I believe I gotta do some fact check in on this, but I believe Andre Walker wrote a book over twenty five years ago about hair, and he created this number system which refers to the different hair type straight, waving, curly, coyly, and within that created a number system. The natural hair
community then took that as part of their language. And then how it evolved was that now stylists needed to be able to communicate with their clients and they had to start to understand this, and so they bought act companies because before like you can now pick up a bottle curl cream and it will say for a type for hair or for a certain type of fear, whereas five to ten years ago you weren't able to do that. So let me just break it down a little bit.
So based on this number system, the number system is between one to four. And I also want to preface system by saying, this number system is starting to become a little bit outdated and antiquated because of the fact that it was a big deal to know this number system. If you knew that you were for A three B four C, that was honey, you cracked the Da Vinci code. Okay, but we now know that you mentioned in our last conversation you have super fine straight here in the nape
of your neck. You have a more curlier texture in the crown. You may have something different going on around your hair, your front hairline, so we know that there's different things going on. So you didn't really crack the code, but you made the first step. Within this number system, it ranges from one to four, one being the straightest or being the curliest coiliest at each and each letter
refers to the degree of wave, curl, or coil. So right now, the tightest on this spectrum on this hair type chart is four C. But like I said, it's a little bit outdated and antiquated because this other patterns outside of that. But what I really like about this hair type chart is the fact that it makes it easy to communicate amongst each other to find products and to communicate with your hair stylists. Outside of that, you'd still need to know some other pieces to the puzzle.
Like Jay, you mentioned that you tried the LLOC method the lock method and it didn't work and then you had to reverse it into the l CO. This is a moisture retention method. The reason why is that maybe you have low perosity here. So along with hair type straight, wavy, curlier, quearly, you gotta know your density, your perosity, and your hair texture, amongst other things so that you just don't waste time,
energy and money trying to figure things out. It's no one size fits all, so you have to know your canvas that you're working on. You can't even rely on your assistance Auntie's cousins and best friends. You really have to do your own homework and again self discovery right, knowing yourself, your hair, what works for you. And that sounds like it's just a lot of experimentation, what product it's It requires experimentation, but it's easier when you know
what you're working with. Okay, so you're not making decisions based on Willows recommendation or your sister or your Cousin's recommendation. You're going in the mirror, you're wetting your hair, You're seeing what hair type you have. Is your hair dense or is it thin? Is your hair forest or is it not? And then you're choosing products based on the end result you want. So let's face it, some people
their goal is hang time. They want long, healthy hair, But some people want short, edgy and color in their hair. Are they going to follow the same regiment? So it's always important, just like in life, that you have intention and you have goals for your own hair and you choose the products accordingly. So in my opinion, that really helps to save time, energy, and money matters because that's that quickly is the process how to help you figure
out going on exactly. So we're talking about hair care, and just for me, my hair care routine is pretty simple, and I just I don't know what makes it. I feel like maybe I'm not doing everything that I want to do to take care of my hair. But my hair is pretty healthy. If I have to work, I usually will wash my hair the night before because I can style it better when it's fresh and clean. And of course when you're styling your hair, you end up
putting product in it. So like I'm working today, I don't have to work tomorrow, but then I have to work again Friday. I have to work again on Sunday. So I'm gonna end up washing my hair on Thursday, and then I'll wash my hair again on Saturdays. That's
pretty typical for me. Yeah, there are some women. Men gotta throw my fellas in there, But there are some people that they, like you said, they may take for granted their haircare, but there's some things that could be going on that they completely ignore because they think it's supposed to happen, like finning, changing the pictures, alopecia, breakage,
and things like that. So those are things that you just even though you don't have a high maintenance regiment, there's still things that you want to keep your eyes open for. And Jay said having a good stylist will definitely help to reinforce that, but also reiterating there are people who are in that type four or highly textured poily hair that can't shampoo every two to three days and then don't need to and they don't need to
and they don't need to. That's the other thing. Now I am shampooing, but I am in all of that. There's conditioner that's happening. I wear a head scarf when I go to sleep at night, even though I have short hair, I wear a scarf to tie my hair down. And I also sleep on a satin pillow, and so that's for my hair and for my skin or my face.
So that's good definitely, because at the when we're talking about the skin or the aging skin or the aging hair hair, it's all about moisture retention and things you can do to keep the elasticity. So things like satin or silk pillow cases or satin caps are definitely great when it comes to moisture retention and reducing the amount of friction from your pillow or your sheets or external
heat sources. I would say probably more than half of black women have experienced one or more of these issues like breakage, traction alopecia, frizziness, and dry scout, particularly traction alopecia, because I found that, like I said, this year was the first year that I tried braids, and I absolutely loved them. However, I have to say that I was in the chair for nine hours and one time when I got it done. It was so tight that I
had to take tyling on. When I got home, my head was hurting, So my scout was hurting so bad and I could not sleep. I had to take tyling on. It hurt to lay down. My head was so it was so tight on my head. And then when I took it out, I felt like I definitely was seeing breakage or it seemed like there was some receding at my temples. And I don't know whether that's just from age or whether that was from the braids. So I was a little confused because I thought that braids were
supposed to be a protective style. There a protective style when you have silence because me and was talking of that them sue somebody who does here and I just care for him. They understand like how to make sure that what is happening is good for you, Like you can have braids that don't hurt, like they shouldn't hurt, and if they do, you need to take those outs. But people don't want you because a lot of times I've been sitt in hours and hours You're like, oh,
be world exactly for nine hours. So I used to do braves and weeks when I was doing here, that was my area of specialty, f evorite thing to do the protective styles. I love them, but now that I don't do it, when I give it back to other folks, WI be going to do. What I recommend is making sure that you tell your silas to do larger parties around the edges. Do not do the same size party
as they would. And the thicker, of course, it's of your hair because the weight of the extension here can pool over time and then will pull your roots up. That in attention to any tension that the style is like off the style is is pooling too hard on your hair, it will pull your root up and we still cause you to lose hair. Sometimes that can be termitive.
We want to make sure that whoever you're selected to do the brain understand like they understand how to take care of edges and how to take care of the make because those are very like tinder spaces on our
scalth end. Usually our hair is a lot sinner and finer anybody's here, even those of us would like really course hare our hair is a lot sinner around the edges, and so we have to be very careful about the weight that we pull, you know that we put on it, and then addition to that, sometimes the length of the brains can cause problems, and so we just have to be really thoughtful about the style itself for our hair
type as well as who is doing our style. Critical Protective styles got its name from what it does, which is protecting the hair. A lot of people that are looking to maintain healthy here or grow their healthy hair long. The key to that is really moisture, retension, and low manipulation, and what the protective styles offer you is a way to take the break from manipulating the hair. That counts
for combing, brushing, pulling, ponytails, anything like that. So essentially, protective styles are supposed to protect your hair and give you a break. But like with anything else, too much of anything is just not good. Too much tension, too much pulling, too much of anything, wearing it too long, it's just not going to be good for the hair. And especially that your hair is more on the softer or finer side, anything that has that extra weight or egg has an extra tension will have the ability to
maybe pull and pull your hair. So you may not have been seeing things you might have seen it correctly and it's great that you are aware of that, because some women men will continue to do that for the look and then end up receding their hair in back and Trade said, sometimes those are effects are not reversible. Wow. Yeah, So what is the itching all about? What is that is it? Is it just because it's a foreign texture? You know, I just don't get it. It's like, I'm
all the itching and padding. You want to speak to that tray? I got my you know, I'm rapid fire right here quickly. For me, I found like cleaning the hair. So sometimes people take care straight out of the bag and then start braiding with it. I actually see that it's very common practice, and I think that's not good to do in the condition the hair. And I think that's a part of it. Now that cuts down on
all that itching. It cuts down a lot. There's also just the regular maintenance to because some of us are put braids in or protected solid and we just leave it and we don't actually do the good maintenance with it. And so there's also that causing a lot of itching. But I know, say you're probably don't have way more. First of all, some people have allergies to can klan or torchiolon or all these different synthetic brands. Whether it's the dye, whether it's the hair itself. Some people have
allergies to the actual fiber of the hair. Secondly, if you're somebody who has dry skin, not just on your if you have dry face, most likely dry arms, you're gonna have a dry scalp and not pulling on the dry scalp can lead to itching. And also you can have allergies to the products. Some people like to oil their scalp. We could talk about that it's it's oil and the scalp more traditional or cultural or do we actually need it. So there's so many things that lead
to itching. That product build up on the scalp, the dry scalp with the type raids, hair bumps, and sometimes allergies. Okay, okay, so somebody told me because when I first started having the itching problem, I was told to have the braighter, treat the hair with vinegar or apple side or something. What is that they're different now actual ingredients that helped to soothe itching, like uh, tea tree oil or rosemary
oil or rose water or different things like that. They are calming camemeo like some te rences that really helped to calm the itching if it is due to maybe an allergic reaction or maybe some type of irritation on the scalp. They have these natural ingredients that helped to do that. But I always think it's great to find out what those triggers are that are causing the itching
in the first place. I like to definitely do my research, but another like to give a one size fits all answer, because if you don't have dry scalp, there's really no need to necessarily quit oil on your scalp. I think that is one of those things that are traditional or cultural that we sat down on Sundays, and sometimes it's more of a habit, tradition or cultural rather than a necessity. Again, on superfine hair or soft hair, those things are going to weigh it down. It's going to of course the
braves to slip out. It's gonna cause a lot of different It might be helping one thing but hurting the other things. But I remember Jada sitting down and oiling willow scalp and then having willow oil her scalp, and it was like a bonding time. It was great bonding time for them. So yeah, definitely moments of bonding. But now with hair care technology, we're realizing that it made not it might just be more bonding than scientific is.
Our hair still susceptible to damage from perms. Over the years, they have perfected the perms. You have the perms that don't have lie anymore. So I feel like Number one, I wonder if people are perming their hair as much as they used to before. I feel like they're not. I'm not sure. I'm not a stylist, and I'm wondering if it's still as damaging to the hair as it was when they backed when live was being used in
the perms. The chemical pudio hydrop side is still in relaxes as far as I do, and that's a dangerous and so if it's being used, you still have to be extremely careful when you breathe the ful man. It does cause scar tissue to the lungs, especially for people who's breathing in all the time excidence. I remember when I used to do with relaxes on people's hair. It
would change the texture of my hands. Yeah, it teats your skin, and so I they're still dangerous, but for people who are using them, especially for the silence who are using them, they should be like wearing masks, wearing gloves. You're not to put the chemical too coast to the scout those kinds of things. But yeah, I don't know that as many people are using relaxes after there was a sharp decline in the around twenty thirteen amount of money spent on chemical relaxes. So I know there's a ship.
But I'm gonna have a full transparent moment right now. Okay, I see why they call it premy crap. Okay, because I'm gonna tell you right now, I've been natural for seven years. But when I started with relaxers, I started with pixie cuts. That was my thing. I tied my whole identity to this short Bob's pixie cuts. That was my thing. And sometimes I really miss it. I'm not gonna lie. I really miss laying. I'm really like child I used the LAO anyway. See I'm feeling it now.
But I would say that even though there is advancements in technology about no LIE and LIE relaxing sodium hydroxide, there's technically LIE, but there's calcium hydroxide. There are other things that can that are underneath the LIE category, but federal regulations allow them to say no, lie. But if you are going to use it, you gotta, like Jay said, you gotta perceive with caution. But with all that being said, I do miss it at times. I just have to
share that and just have a real moment. I haven't done. I haven't done a relaxed her in so many years. But that's the way. That's the way we're moving into. My daughters don't have it, my mother doesn't have a relaxer. I think I've influenced a lot of people to take this walk, take this journey of self discovery. Yeah, yes, so I'm telling you, ladies, your hair is just absolutely beautiful, and take a walk down memory lane. But you're on the right path right now. That's all I can say.
Thank you so much for the conversation. Okay, what's one thing you want to get off your chest? I think the most important thing is that we just really try to do our part too, move push the needle and move the movement forward. And there's so many different things and so many things that we can do, but we really just have to find our lane, find our voice and what we're good at, and really just drill a
hole in that. And for me, it is beauty, education, self care, self love, just tapping into self and embracing their personal power, find a way to link up and do it together. I love that. I love that. I totally agree that we all have a thing that we can do. And what I was thinking about final thoughts, I thought about, I've been an activists and an educator all of my life. I'm run a nonprofit cob Book and we have four killers affirmation, the colonization, organization, and innovation.
And when I thought about the conversation that we just had, I felt like we touched on all those different topics. It's important that we promote self love. It is important that we understand like the history and history that we come from, so that we do not feel that we are lesser than that we are inferior. But these other pieces that we talked about in part two, the organization and innovation pieces, making sure that we are aware of what's out there that we have done past and present
and pulling that together in a a strategic way. And then this innovation piece us being creative and willing to step outside of the box and do something that we haven't done before. Really like, I'm really big about us supporting our youth genius. Really really enjoyed Willows energy and her free thought, and I think we need more of that, the willingness to be someone who can say I don't have to be in this box. We can't do something else.
That was then, this is now. We need that and we need to as big sisters Auntie's, grandma's, mama's um, father's calls. We need to support that more, that free thought, because that is how we're going to actually get out of this hierarchy of power. Tell us where people can find you on social media. I'll tide of saying thank you for having me. This has been an honor and
a lot of fun. If anyone wants to continue um talking with me at any point, you can find me on my website David Shay dot com, where I continue with freedom Activision of all sorts, perfect and Stacy. I would concur thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to use my voice, and if you want to continue the conversation with me, I'm offering education to hairstylists and everyday women about how to manage and maintain highly textured Here you can find me at Stacey cismon dot com.
Thank you lady so much. It was such a pleasure talking with you. Please continue to do the work because you are the representation that we need to keep moving forward. Thank you so much. Thank you. This is my takeaway and at the end of the day, girl is your hair, whether you bought it or grew it, do whatever makes you feel umazy. If you're listening on Apple Podcast, be sure to rate and review. Follow me on my Instagram at Gammy Norris to share with me your thoughts on
the episode. I'm here, I'm talking, and I'm listening. As always, stay grateful y'all. Positively gam is produced by Westbrook Audio Executive producers Adrian Banfield Norris, Jada Pinkett Smith, Amanda Brown, and Fallon jethro Co executive producer sim Hoti, editor and mixer Calvin Bailiff. Positively Gam is in partnership with Art nineteen