Living Your Truth: A Transgender Pastor Speaks Out

said that there will always be that pain. I'm very excited about our show today. It's going to be different. Yeah. Interesting. The Red Table will probably spark some controversy today when when does it not. But I really want to ask our our t T family to keep an open mind, because that's what we do here. I am really fascinated and intrigued by the story of our guests that's coming today. For more than forty years, Pastor Paul Williams traveled from

state to state preaching the gospel. Courage is stepping forward even though you're absolutely filled with fear. Paul was happily married and a devoted father to his three children, but he spent a majority of his life hiding his truth. They knew that I was a girl when I was about three or four years of age. I fought it for decades. I had spent my life wanting to be a loving husband, a loving father, and for a long time I thought that I would make it through my

life without transitioning. But after a lifetime as a man, Paul made the agonizing decision to transition into a woman. I realized I no longer had a choice. I felt like I was dying inside. It was a feeling of desperation and deep sadness because I knew what it would do to my family. I learned about my dad becoming transgender in one day. My dad just said I'm Trench

gender and started hysterically crying. I felt uh sad. I had to grieve all of what was We were always that family that everything went wonderfully, but I felt like I was breaking the family apart, and I didn't know if we would survive. Transitioning is not an easy process, and though it was painful, it was wonderful and was the hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Welcome,

Thank you. I wanted to ask you if you could describe to us a bit what your life was like for you as Paul, knowing inside that you were someone else. It was tough. Yeah, I mean I knew from the time I was three or four I was transgender. So it's like, well, the gender fairy will arrive and I will get to choose what I am a girl, And of course it didn't happen. And I didn't hate being a boy. I just knew I wasn't one. But the longer life went, the more it's like, I don't want

to do this to my family. But it was a call and I just saw. I screamed, God, who the do you think you are to me to this. I'm going to lose everything. My family is going to suffer. But I knew it been called. And you reject to call at your own peril. Yes, that's real talk. I consider myself a strong person, but I would think about myself and your shoes, and as I was like, would

I have made that choice? And I said to myself, there had to be such a strong call, like I wouldn't have done it because there's so much judgment in the world and you're risking everything, your family it was really tough. As Paul, you were married, and I'm assuming that you loved your wife because it was my understanding, yeah, that even in your transition, you were hoping to keep that union intact when you decided to transition. Was she the first person that you told? Yeah, and it's been,

um the hardest. Yeah, I can imagine. So whose decision was it to Actually just that was her, It was her decision. I would like to have remained married. I mean we had the world's best marriage therapist and he said, what makes this so tragic is you're a lesbian and she's not right, and so that's kind of yeah. Yeah, that I think was my realization that it wasn't fair to her, that she needs to be true to herself as well exactly, and she's not attracted to women, and

so that was her decision. It was difficult for me, and this for her husband devastating. Yeah. Yeah. Before Pastor Paul transitioned to Paula, he had a traditional life as a husband and a father of three. I remember my dad telling us I am transgender and describing what that is. It was just like wow, in that moment, the world felt like it had flipped over, nothing will ever be the same. I feel like there was no words at first. I know, I immediately got up and hugged them, and

I was just scared to death. And then my parents just told us, are you ready to meet Paula? And they opened the door and Paula was standing there like very timid, like when are you ever ready to see your father dressed up as a woman and with makeup, and my dad's boobs are bigger than mine, you know. She was like showing us all of her clothes and her closet and just being a girl. I was truly excited for her because I could just see like she was glowing. There was no chance that I could deny

that this isn't who she is. But she's not my dad, so that really, like that was hard. I feel like it was immediately worried for what life will be like for my father. This is how I remember our childhood, always happy, always fooling around, the quintessential like family. How could I not know? Like how could we have not known? And although it wasn't a betrayal, it felt like one. It's like if you knew this all this time, Like how could you not have told us? I felt like

I had been mine too. That was Daddy's a little girl. Now you're not daddy. Now my dad's gone. So okay, like I just miss my dad. Yeah yeah, we lost their down. Yeah wow. So we have two of your children here today. We have Jana and Jonathan also a pastor. Welcome. So did it feel like you didn't have an opportunity to say goodbye to your father? But it isn't a feeling of who is this stranger. It's like this person knows me so well. This is a parent. It's not

my mom my dad. I think that was the struggle, like where do you put this? What do I do with that? You know? Yeah, exactly, Like so who is she to me? Now? You know my immediate thought was like, oh, thank god, Like she looks good because I was real afraid, so I like did a whole thing. I'm like, all right, makeup is good, jewelry, like, okay, that's just good. She looks great. But in that moment, I was like, Okay,

my dad's gone, Like this is it. I think for me it was more of a process of relearning to have a relationship with my dad. It was more of that, you know, I didn't see this coming at all. I had no idea, And now you're telling me you're transitioning to become a woman, and I'm like, okay, was my whole life a lie? Was I was I playing catch in the front yard with you know, a woman dressed in drag. That's that's what I start to warning. You know, my dad was my god, and so it was like, Okay,

my god is gone. What I knew as my hero is gone. And so there's a lot of anger around losing that that north star. You know, the father son relationship is real, and we had an incredible one. Yeah, because you actually followed in this bus. Absolutely. I feel like as a child you have like this like so ingrained of like mom and dad and like their roles.

For that to just be like completely switched up, I honestly couldn't imagine how that affects you, your mentality, you know, how that affects you know, even how you thought about past experiences that you had as a child. I think you need that foundation, And selfishly, I am thankful that we had that. You know, we had a very normal bringing, but you sort of know it's never really going to be okay again, Like your family is never really going to be what it was. And that's okay because she

is who she is and that is worth it. But there'll always be that pain. It must be like death. It's confusing though you feel like there's a death, but it's hard to grieve in that situation. And we had nobody to to talk to about anybody. And so when the whole Bruce Jenner story came out, everyone started calling, Oh, that's what you're at, Like, yeah, when you first transition. Every time we went somewhere, she was just so nervous

and she was so reserved and shy. And to see my dad, who I had known to be this powerful male that was kind of like leading the pack, and all of a sudden the roles were reversed. There was a few months that I had to be like Paula one day and paul the next. It was it was so difficult, and at that point I was also I've been on estrogen for quite some time, and I remember the last time I had to go out as a male. My spouse was just laughing and saying, Oh, you really

looked like I don't something in between. You gotta stop this stuff soon, you would visit me as a male. Still I was, I was in denial. It was really hard for me. And so I remember the last time you visited me as Paul. I looked at you and I was like, this is this is not my father. It doesn't feel like my dad anymore. Doesn't look like my dad anymore. She doesn't look like my dad. Yeah, I just started crying. He started crying, and Paul at the time said why and I said, because you're not

You're not my dad and longer. So, yeah, that was a tough day. Paula, did you understand the extent of how your daughters and your son missed Paul their father? No, because I think in the first year, you're just so happy to be in the right body. You're so self absorbed, and you know, maybe they should just lock us in a room for that, just until we're ready to come back into a real world, can realize the way we've exploded the family narrative. None of us know what to

do with Paul. I don't know what to do with Paul, and I don't have pictures of Paul around the house, and I speak of myself in the third person. Yeah, I don't know how you integrate. We didn't memorialize Paul said goodbye to Paul. I think what's really fascinating also is the fact that you were part of evangelical community for such a long time. In churches across America, conservative leaders, just like Pastor Paul once was, have different views about

being transgender. I see a man dressed up as a woman who has mutilated his body and saying, hey, look at me. Everybody, every church has a different opinion on the issue, and lgbt s of all types and sorts have to find a household of warship that reflects what your views are and what you believe like anybody else. Transgenderism is not a civil right. Just because I have morals and values, that does not make me a discriminatory bigot. Wow.

Where no enemy exists, we create. And you see that in the religious world, creating enemies that don't exist, and that's what they've done with the LGBTQ community. Absolutely, you believe that you would be risking your relationship with your community. I didn't know how bad it was going to be.

I thought, well, okay, I'll probably have to leave my jobs at some point in time, and so I wanted to tell the organizations I was a part of and one I've been with for thirty five years, and I was gone from all of my jobs within seven days. I lost the church, most of my friends, I lost my pension, I lost everything. The next few months were hard to even survive. In twenty one state, you can't be fired for being transgender, but in all fifty you can be fired at your transgender and you work for

a religious corporation. These are good things to know. For me. The hard part was the same organization that Paul worked for. That's the organization that hired me to start this church, right, So when she told me about her transition, I'm like, well, I just got a bunch of money from these churches, and if they find out, not only will you get fired, but there's a chance that I'm going to have to say, well, I support my dad, in which case I'm going to

get fired. So in three months into this church plant that I just started, and I can't tell anybody for fear of both of our livelihoods, both of ours. I cried upstairs every Sunday and I would come down ten minutes before our services started, and I put on a happy face and I'd smile and I preach and all that, but I was resentful. I was resentful that I had to do that. So there was some anger there. I

was quietly affirming of the l g b t Q community. Um, but you know, I'm a white male and it doesn't have to affect me if I don't want it to affect me. And all of a sudden, it affects me. And so I'm going, Okay, well what do I do. Do I continue just to hold privilege in power and not do anything about this, or do I support my my dad and you know, thousands like her who are literally life and death. You know, people are being told that they're not loved. So what decision did you make?

I cannot, in good conscience be a church that does not, you know, outwardly include support and affirm lgbt Q a community. Yeah, and so yeah, we lost lost thousands of dollars and a lot of people walked out our doors. And it was the best decision we ever made. Estrangement wasn't an option, right, you don't leave somebody that's beautiful. I don't feel like there's a lot of religious spaces that offer like a true, true community to transgender people, people who don't really fit

in to the religious status quo. You know, you still have churches that don't allow women in the post. Yeah, well, in twenty eight states, the major religious teaching is actually a teaching that says men should be in charge of women at home, at church, and by extrapolation and every other part of our environment. That's still the major teaching in twenty eight states of the United States. That's frightening.

I also feel as though people fear that which they don't understand absolutely, which is one of the reasons why I keep wanting to have these conversations that more intimate understanding about it, because if you understand it, all you have is your fear. Do you think that working with that organization for so long kept you from fully transitioning beforehand? Yeah? I mean it was a way to not have to deal with what I needed to deal with. It was a way to stay in a safe space, and frankly,

a way to kind of keep my power. Yeah, my male privilege, which is painful to admit, that makes sense, but that's real talk. Is that self awareness? Me. I feel like if I was a man, I would be like, Wow, I have so much privilege as a man. I don't know if I want to mess that up, Like that's what it's so much religion, politics, everything is set up for the patriarchy. So it's like every white patriarchy for sure. Absolutely. I think as a male, I was just pretty sure

I was I was the stuff. Yeah, I under stand, there's still so much privilege you carry with me. I think that is a strength that I had that the world had been very good to me. Everything I ever touched turned to gold, and so it was actually, I think easier for me to make that decision, certainly than a person of color, more than someone who's not had the kind of education or white male privilege or success

that I had. For me, is that huge point. That's a huge point because us in here is African American women, were like, right, right, right, yeah, I mean that's one of the most at risk groups in the United States, is trans women. I am very impressed with your awareness of understanding your privilege as a white male, right yeah. I mean there are a lot of things you discover

when you transition. One, if you speak up while you speak up too strong, while now you're you're just too strong, and you're that word and if you don't speak up strongly enough, and now you're too acquiescent. And if you do speak cap you're just going to be interrupted. You tell her, girls, don't speak until you know you're absolutely perfect, till you have your ducks in her rockcase, you're gonna be interrupted anymore. Honestly, Like, I even see it in myself.

If there's like a lot of men in the room, I have to get myself in a specific state where it's like no, like I cannot be refuted. It's true. I think what's really fascinating was you also acknowledging the fact, well, if this is happening to me as a white woman, I can only imagine what's happening to my sisters that are of color, my Latin sisters, my black sisters, or my own daughter, right yes, me three and my five granddaughters or children of color. Right, Wow, that is true.

So you adopted your daughter? How old was she when you was two months of age when we got her from Calcutta. I don't think we had nearly any idea of the difficulties that it was going to be for her to grow up as a child of color in a very white family in a very white neighborhood and we were not aware of that. What made you aware of it? Shortly after I transition and just started watching my power disappear, she's like, so, what do you think?

So do you have any idea? No, you know, and it's like she was the most accepting of you from the geto from the story because she's been the immediate she has and it was immediate. Yeah, it's so beautiful to know both sides, you know, to have that power and then to have that shift and how that affects how you thought about past experiences that you had. I think that's a really beautiful thing because not a lot

of people get to see both both sides. I always say that the highest challenges us in ways to make our hearts more elastic. I like that, you know. Yeah, how did your children deal with Paula? So we sat them down and we said, hey, Grandpa has always felt like a girl on the inside, and so now Grandpa is going to look like a girl, to dress like a girl. And my older daughter, who was six at the time, she said, so, basically, Grandpa's just gonna match

how he feels on the inside with the outside. And I said, yeah, and she goes, okay, And it was that simple when she finally met them. Though. Grandpa comes in the room and my girls are coloring at the table and they're both quiet, and you know, my wife and I were going say hi, say hi to Grandpa, and they're quiet, and then my five year old she looks up, she goes, so, Grandpa, you still have a penis. And you know that broke the tension, right, So now

we're all laughing. We're like, oh, this is great out the mouth of baby. I'm telling you. At that moment, you know, they came up with the name Grandpaula. We're gonna call her grandpa. Have you guys figured what to call Paula? I said, you know, I have a mom, and mom played the mom role in my life. And Paula said, I've always felt like your dad. That's always been real, so so you can call me dad. I mean, that's never not going to be true. It doesn't it

doesn't change, it doesn't change. But there'll be times in public where I'll be like dad, Dad, Dad, when my child is doing something and people will look around like like, what, who's the dad? And for you, it's not it's not the same. Yeah, I immediately didn't call your dad anymore because it's to me, it's two separate people, you know, even though Dad's not gone, Dad's gone and this is Paula. I feel like this is happening so much more than I feel like we need to come up with some vocabulary.

I love that you even like like transitioning rituals. We need to come up. Let's make this a thing, you know. I think that could be huge. Yeah, maybe super helpful. What I realize is that it takes a new skill in order to figure out how to gracefully transition a family and community. Absolutely, well, we're gonna bring the fishbowl out. You want to go first, Paula, do you have any regrets? I have tons of regrets. I have no regrets about transitioning,

got it, Paula? Have you ever had gender reassignment surgery? To me, there is one question that should not be asked. That's just inappropriate. But I would not walk up to somebody and say, can you please tell me about your sex life? Or you know what I mean? I don't care. I want my dad happy and healthy. That's what I want. There's a socially economic issue as well. You know I was a very successful white male. I can have whatever surgeries I want to have, But what about all those

who cannot do so? Yeah, that's that's a question we generally don't answer. Good, got you, I'll pick one this time. Oh okay, sure, Me from Chicago, Illinois is asking Paula, did you have to learn to become feminine? It shocked even me how easy and natural it was. Because I was a guy's guy. Nobody would have had a clue, right, and it was so easy. I don't have any explanation. I just came, just came. And that's not always true for transgender women. A lot of them really have to

work hard. But in my case, I didn't wow with Angelizzle staff at Jonathan's church, and she is joining the Red Table from New York everybody. So, Angela, I know you had some strong beliefs about transgender and gay people at the point of time. What would those views that you had. Well, growing up in the Baptist church, we have been taught that being gay was an abomination. Uh, if you were gay transgender, like everybody that didn't fit

this certain box was going to go to hell. Then I grew up and moved to New York and I started to go to Forefront, and then Jonathan would start preaching about becoming more inclusive, right, and sometimes he would say things, you know, and I'd be like, oh Lord, because I didn't know if lightning was gonna strike me, what was gonna happen? You know? It was it was

very uncomfortable. And when I heard Paula's story about her knowing it four years old that she didn't really fit in the body that she was in, How is it that if God made this person, how is it as a child they have these thoughts and feelings if it's not from God? And then I had to reevaluate all these times that people would say it's in the words, in the word, and there are so many things in the word that would exclude so many of us. It made me question, well, you know what, miss Angela, you

gave a word. Thank you, but it took me minute to get there, all right, and look, it takes us all a while to get there. Thank you for being willing to listen. Kudos to you for that. I think that it's a beautiful thing and that people are going to have hope that didn't have it before. So thank you. Thank you Angela. Well, we really appreciate you guys for coming as well. Kudos for just doing the work as a family to embrace this and get to get to

that place saying that. Ye honestly, thanks, thank you, thanks for having on the next red Piano. My friend and sister Alicia Keys. What's the biggest misconception that you think people have about you? Probably that I'm very happy or that I'm very strong? Wow? Really, I don't even know how to get mad. Dusty r t T is on fire, This girl, This Girl, and r t T special episode.

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