EJ & Cookie Johnson: Daring To Be Different

is the show for us. Our family has known basketball legend Magic Johnson and his amazing wife Cookie for over twenty years. The Johnson's were faced with the choice embraced their vibrant son e J, who is boldly pushing boundaries with very provocative and daring choices, or to try to push him to be something that he's not. Let's go in and go sit at the table. That color is that a polish or is that like it's a powder? It's a powder? Okay, because you need to get into that.

We got Cookie and e J here with us today, y'all. I'm so happy to have you here. Yeah, real talk. I'm super excited for so many reasons. I think we have so much to talk about and I just want to talk about raising children outside of what is considered the norm because it's challenging. First of all, how do you define gender fluidity in your eyes? I guess you're just in your floating in the spectrum. You're not really defined by any gender confines, if you will. I just

feel like it's fluid because this movie it's fluid. It's nebulous. It's just like Willow's word of the day, nebulous. I like that word. Yes, it's really just I'm just e gyant. Yeah. People come up to me all the time and be like, so, how do you just be normal? And I'm like, now where you are that trips them out, That's like whoa, That's like that's crazy that you know what is normal for you in your natural state? Do that. I just feel like the only times when it gets a little

weird is like, okay, what's your bathroom? Like yeah, I mean it's like sometimes I'll be like in the like a skirt and like a look like I'm doing the most and I'm like in the men's room and everyone's like and I'm like, now they're starting to do like male and female bathrooms, like and I feel like even like the high end restaurants like made it like a chic thing to just be like, oh, like there's no labels go you know, like in the individual stalls or

like UNI they have like the men's the women like that. That works for me. With that, that works for me. I love being able to sit here with the two of you because both of you have such courage and have been so brave. Two do you and be you? Yes? Cookie? What has it been like for you as a mom? As a mom, well, you know, it wasn't easy. We're from the Midwest. You know, everything is you know, straight laced. So when it first came about, I didn't know what

to do about it. I didn't know because I noticed three, that's what you because he's that's when he started wanting to put on the princess costumes at school, even at home, like he would come in my closet, want to put on my shoes, or my mom had these really full skirts and he would like twirl around he would want to put and then he would put them on and swirl around and then But you know, you always thought, Okay, everything's a phase. So you think, oh, this is a phase.

You know, he'll outgrow it. I won't worry about it. So we five years old, we put him in sports and instead of catching the ball, he's in the in the field picking flowers and he runs up to him, Mommy, look what I found for you? You know, right? Was there ever a time in your life that you did conform that you did play like a sport basketball, baseball? I mean I tried, but it just didn't click after that,

and then I started acting and doing theater. Like when I was fifteen, me and my friend who who's also gay, but we you know, had just come out to each other, so we thought that was a big deal. That's real talk the courage of that. We went to Hawaii once and I'm sitting behind him and his friend. You know how the girls go buy in the bathing suits and the guys go by. So when the guys went by, they were like, oh, you know, like and nothing. Okay, we need to have a talk. And the talk wasn't

you can't be this? The talk was do you think you are? And I said, before you answer that, thought know that if you are, I'm okay with it. And so he answered and he said, yes, I think I am, and I was like, well, okay, you know, we will love you and support me no matter what. I'm like, this is what makes him happy. Let him be happy. But at that time, you can be happy in your room, but don't let that see you. So it was all

of that. How was the journey for your father? My husband is a kind of person like he reacts quickly, so everything that came to the top of his head, he just let it out. Your father been magic Johnson and icon, one of the most famous athletes in the world. How was the journey for your father? When was it okay for him to play with dolls or to wear the dresses in the hut? To be long time? We had to talk with dad and that was a little tough.

You know, it was a little tough. My husband is the kind of person like he reacts quickly, so everything that came to the top of his hand, he just let it out. And I was like, because it hurt my feelings, and I know what party heard his feelings when he was in You know, it's not what I wanted for my son. And do you realize what you're saying? Because you know the world is not gonna like that,

and you want to live this life. So afterwards, you know, I told him, I saying I thought that was a little tough, you know, you know, that wasn't right, and he didn't say anything. And then next day, the very next day, he went to your room, you tell it and just was like, we're going to get through this, and you know, I just need time, and then um, we both just kind of started crying a little bit.

And yeah, but then I moved to New York to go to college, and when he came back to visit, he picked me up for dinner and he was like, you know, like I have your here where we love you. I went, you know, I'm just like whenever I hug your dad and whatever. But he hugged me so hard he almost like broke my back. And at that point I was like, we're gonna be okay, right, you know, because like I could really feel the love. And then at that point I was like, you know what, We're

gonna be fine. Yeah, it's tough because I know that you're trying to manage the husband and musically it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay, and then managed the kids. All right, I'm figuring it out. You know, and at the same time managing yourself and then not losing yourself in it and then at the same time having to deal with the world. Right when Jaden God asked to do the women's campaign for Louis Vuitton, this kind of gender fluid fashion, you know, Will called me be will Smith,

Will Smith and you know what I mean. And he's like, nope, this, my son is not supposed to be in Louis Vuitton ad wearing skirts that is not no no, no, no, no, no, hold up, is this a good idea? And I was like, well, you know what, will It's what he wants. This is this is his expression. And he said, okay, okay, but it was tight. It was tight, you know, and he was a crane. It was uncomfortable because you know, as dad, you know, expect macho macho, you know. Yeah. He told

me he didn't want me to cut my hair. He didn't want Willow to shave her head. Do it. It's like all your femininity, as if my femininity was like in my hair. Yeah, you know you've been rocking short hair well yeah, short hair, short yeah. But Willow was nine, so he was like, you know what I mean, a little girl little girls, like you know, it's his little girl, and I want you to stay a little girl as long as I can. They want you in a place of where they can protect you. That's what I really

learned from Will. And they think about what the world thinks, which is what he you know, his dad kept telling him there's just so much judgment in the world. Just begets itself. It's like insecurity, then begets You're going to tell someone what they're doing wrong based on what you think you're doing wrong, and then it's just a cycle of and then you can never cycle. Yeah, e J, let's talk about your fashion for a second, because I have to tell you you've got some fierce fashion. Thank

you right now. Your face is be Honestly, I would always repost your outfit photos, your amazing style, and I would constantly just be like, wow, I wish that I could even like dress myself like this. Well, I've always let the clothes like speak to me. I've never been confined by whether this was in the men's action of the woman's action, Like if I feel that this should be on my body, then it should be on my body. It's always been a lot for people to come brehand.

You know, it took a long time for her to get used to it, but like, you know, it's just always who I was, and it was just difficult because of course your parents always want you to be normal, so like no one makes fun of you, and like we're in a protecting way of yeah, we always want to prove right. But I think, you know, coming into adulthood, it was kind of like I'm here now and like if somebody wants to make fun of me, like I

have to have my own back. And they prepared me for that, you know, coming into the world, and yeah, exactly, and it's really helped me, you know. So how did they do that? How did your parents? How were they able to help you be able to walk into the world, especially in the age of social media, because I'm I was growing up social we didn't have social media likeness. I think like they gave me a good dose of

nurturing and love but also reality. You know. I think they like, we love you, like whatever, like you know, live your life, but like you need to know that, like not everybody is going to have that same love and respect for you, and it's not going to be easy for some people. And you know, you're gonna have

to understand that. And even like when you're coasting and you think you're on top of the world, like there's always one instance or one person that I have to be like, oh, right, you're that person, right, you are right. I feel like you kind of get that dose on if you're constantly on social media, especially, you know, like getting that that dose comes a little sooner when you when you're looking at your phone and you're like, these are what people are saying, Like this is for real.

People are just me. People are just me, And yeah, I just have to really learn how to block it. You know. Do you find that sometimes those are people who are just upset that they haven't granted themselves their own freedom, And it's like you don't get to do that because I don't get to be myself. You know. I find that I get that a lot more in person, even in people in the you know, greater gender community

or like whatever. It's like sometimes there's just just really weird is staining, and it's just mostly because like you, I feel like you can't be here. But like if you just open up and and learn to let live and let go, like we could be here. But it's just like almost envy. It's always been so weird to me, e J. The producers are telling me that you are dating now? Is that I want to hear that I was? I know, I like totally leave her in the dog

about my love life. I'm not dating anybody in particular. I am dating, like I go on dates. Right, Well, how has it been since it's you know, it's always been a struggle. It's you know, there's so many factors. First of all, it's like the celebrity thing, like, okay, who are you here? For? You dating me? You're trying to date my dad. These men either just want to be there for one thing and then like don't want

to stay for the real relationship part. Or they just want to ride the wave and b booge and bomb and have their picture taken and do all of that. So there's so much going on, but hurt, hurt exactly. You both end up crying the corner, you know. So you haven't brought anyone special home to you. I have not, because every time I would be ready to, something happens and then I'm like no, And I would never pre expose you to somebody that I didn't like. Vet, you

know so hard, like the White House. I know, for me, wherever my parents are, it's like a sacred space for me. And so do you ever feel like that person may not be able to hold the importance of that space? Definitely? And I think that's the reason why this one's really wise here. And I'm telling you like that just it's just because that's a lot to carry. I didn't even think about this, are you know even growing up, like our friends were definitely all friends that you knew and

you pre approved of. It was like, you know, we would never let some crazy person, you know, even if I was like, oh so and so is coming over after school to do who that? Well, let me call here and see you know what this type of person is, you know, Like that's the kind of thing like I think about, Like I don't know our parents, but I know that person right right, where's the phone book? Let me call this person? Mob man? Like most of the time, like absolutely not. I would never let you walk into

the sacred walls, sacred spaces. And like you know what I have to say, Cookie to have two fabulous children that still care about what we think and appropriate. I'll tell you what, man, I gave birth to a son that I didn't know. Yeah, I be there. Our generations, we always it feels like we had to label things to understand it. This is this, and that's it's how we how we make sense. Because even when I was talking to Willow and she said something like, you know,

it's not feminine or masculine. We don't really worry about being a woman or a man. You know, every things changing. But it is beautiful. But I must say it's taken some getting used to, you know, because Jaden and Willow have always been different. They were born that way. It wasn't a lot of people think that it came from my rearing, but no, I just so happened that that's how they came into the world. And I had to get in order because I had to be open enough

to receive it. And because you have all of those societal norms weighing on you, you know, me coming from Baltimore and coming from a very rugged like you know, where men were men and like weakness, you get hurt. You like, yeah, there wasn't a whole lot of room for all of that. Just wasn't room. I gave birth to a son that I didn't know. M Yeah, you

know what I'm saying. Jaden is so sweet. You know, I went through a process of oh my gosh, what a beautiful child, and then I went through I'm fearful he'll go into the world, he's gonna get eaten up, and then learning to have that trust in him. You know that they got it right. The things that you guys go through and are able to go through with that, I don't give a attitude. It's just amazing to me.

And it seems to be deepening with each generation because I know even when I was coming up in what you allowed me to do, when I was dyeing my hair before the purples and blues and all that were in you know what I'm saying, And I was an art school kid that was considered a weirdough you know

what I mean. And my mother was like, do you I know I learned a lot having you guys, you know, sitting here, because families, we're all trying to figure stuff out, the fact that you all can be in the world and be okay your own skin is such a wonderful thing. And for me, talking to both of you, it just helps me have the courage to be a little bit more brave in my own journey. This is what I

would like to tell all parents out there. But if you have a child, listen to them, talk to them, let them be who they are, because eventually they're going to do that anyway, So you might as well just be a part of it, you know, don't don't fight it and then end up being the enemy. Yeah, it's also your evolution as well, like you are evolving through

him each stage. And I do think you make such a beautiful point, Willow, and the idea that you know, we give life to our children, and we're told as parents were here to guide them, and we're here to teach them, and I think we often forget how much our kids teach us. What a blessing. Yeah, I learned a lot today on our next red Table talk one of the funniest women out there, my girl Tiffany Hash. When somebody asked me out on the day, I will make some time. I was texting with Drake. He was like,

we should hang out sometimes. I'm like, I could have made a thousand dollars a day, but I was trying to see what that beat us bankings. You're not really black as far as the rise, What has been the best part when beyond my name from I made it facebooker, what's good face? Yes? Here for you give me your questions and you have the answers. Yes, please share your experiences. Yes,

because we're on this journey together. Yes. To join the A table Talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at facebook dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.