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We are the podcast of solutions and the podcast of hope and I'm your host Story Her and delighted to be joined on the podcast today by 2 guests we've had before, and I've got a very good reaction when they've been on the pod. It is professor Mary Murphy of Man University and Sao in climate activist, delighted to have you both back in the pod? Thank you. Delighted Be back. Yeah. And as I said before, it was
great. Great reaction to your previous pods where you were separate, but now you're together, which is great.
And the... So we're gonna chat today just about... I suppose where we're as in terms of climate, social justice and the intersections and and a little bit of reflection on the elections that have just gone in terms of maybe what it means for green the transition and, climate change policies, just if you have thoughts on it, And then we were also all per taking in a conference called rethinking Growth in Trinity, which was very interesting, and I'd like to get your own thoughts on that as well.
And just where is I suppose the climate movement and climate policy going and what what what we think about that. Maybe go to you first ce. In terms of your response, what what did you think when we look at Board in terms of Ireland, we saw you know, the green party being, you know, having a very, very poor local elections, in particular getting hit at the European elections, not completely collapsing. It has to be said in terms of the vote.
And then if we look at a European level, The they definitely have seen a reduction, and we've seen that kind of growth of the the the far rise and the were, you know, the indications are that a European, the ex European commission European parliament is much is going to be even, colder towards the the European green deal and and and there seems to be this real and I I don't... Think it's unfair to describe it as backlash because we know where
it's coming from. It's been fermented by billionaires supporting the far right and the fossil fuel companies, but there's no doubt that the green transition agenda has been hit. Is my assessment. What's your sense of it?
Yeah. I mean, in Ireland, specifically, I think a lot of people have felt alienate originated from the idea of environmental, by not entirely the thought of the greens, but I I don't think they they help I mean, even in a lot of the the policies and that they implemented, I would kinda describe it as quite a middle class, way of looking at climate action. Yeah. Like, you know, having the carbon tax is 1 way to create funds, but then if
you don't have... If you don't, invest and public the transportation that's accessible to everyone, it's just gonna rise the, increase the cost of living for people. So I think it's it's about for me, I think climate action has to be multifaceted. It can't just focus on on 1 thing or another because the reality is the climate crisis isn't caused just by the the bad way in which we treat
our environment. It's also caused by the way, you know, what we value in our economies, it's caused by by how we value human beings and what we produce and it's all intertwined. So I think definitely here in Arden, that's that's a big issue. And the farmer specifically have felt very alienate which is, you know, obviously, farming is 1 of the base polluting sectors in Ireland, but there's also so much important kind of cultural elements that are associated with farming in this country.
So it needs to be just transition as well. Can't just be that that we punish 1 group of people, or another. It it needs to be all of us moving together. So I think that's that's the root of why the greens haven't... Didn't do as well with this elect this... These elections. But, I mean, European level, and I think it's the same to some extent here in Ireland as well.
You know, we had climate action and climate justice and climate crisis were at the top of the media cycle when the last elections happened. And the climate strikes got an unprecedented level of media attention. Mh. And I think this really place climate change is a very kind of as this an issue that was really at the front of people's minds. But then Covid 19 happened, and and that really for very justified reasons people's minds were on much more immediate things.
So I think I I think that's part of it. The the media you know, has moved on. As it always does, the media cycle moving on.
But, I think also people Are really starting to feel the effects of years and years of austerity of housing crisis across almost every country in some regard, and and I think it's it's become a lot more about either wanting to punish ruling parties in government in in national government, by voting far right, or believing that the far right will actually deliver change And when people are interested in change, it's about their it's about their livelihoods because it's so bad for a lot of
people if that makes sense. So I think, unfortunately, climate has been put on the back bench because it feels foreign to a lot of people. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's really, really interesting. And I think as you know, that's definitely, you know, what I saw and and, you know, on doorstep steps and what has come through that this kind of gap grew you know, through Covid, and I think it can't escape from this huge, like, the inequality that's been growing and that, you know, for, you know, 40 years, that this adjustment around Covid and the cast living crisis that came associated in the Ukraine war and inflation and there was a sense,
that also went off the headlines through the last 8 months it a sense or or the cost living crisis was easing. But when you look at it demographic, it was is as acute for, you know, those, you know, basically the the lower half of the population terms of income. As acute and in some ways more extreme.
In terms of things like foods, cost, deprivation has risen the number of children in deprivation has risen And there is this kind of sense that our societies are becoming even more une equal and we've seen the billionaires, you know, in terms of what they've gained. But even in Ireland, as they said, deprivation amongst children increase while there's this other group in society who, you know, have increased their income. Mary, what what's your sense of it?
Yeah. I mean, I have to admit. I didn't knock on doors during this election, but I was speaking yesterday with the a number of community workers at a a meeting where people were trying to reevaluate the the values and the meter to network much harder around the issues that we're facing community work. And by that, I mean, not just geographical community work, but work with communities of interests like loan parents or child or people with disabilities.
And what really struck me was you're talking about inequality. They were talking about the Lived experience, the daily lives of people, not so much even in the bottom 50 percent, but maybe in the bottom 10 percent, in terms of our income distribution. The people who are experiencing daily deprivation. And it there was a material deprivation to it, but there was also... The lived experience was of lives that are lived in communities
there. That are really fragment and breaking down and that the impact of the inequality and the kind of political fragmentation that's happening is lived out in much more violent communities where people are having to really cope with really serious stress of everyday life in terms of getting kids to school or in terms of not wanting to deal with neighbors and conflict on streets and and that it's it's really... It's tied up with drug use. It's tied up with increase music to crack cocaine.
And there's a sense that really there's a big disconnect between the the conversation that's going on in general, and also about climate change, and and what's really going on in in the streets in terms of her violent life is becoming an hard life. Is becoming. And I think it was the only client who talked about, you know, the left go are talking about facts, but the not so guts. Are talking about feelings. And I don't think we don't talk enough about how scared people are about him.
Insecure people are feeling how anxious people are feeling in the reality of that lived experience of what is real inequality and and physical poverty at this stage like the deprivation very, very real for a marked number of communities where poverty is actually increasing, as well as inequality increasing. So I think I really do think that we need to change the conversation so that
people hear their reality in that conversation. And and I suppose like, we were all the trees were up the the rethinking growth conference in Trinity the last few days. And the, you, there was remarks on you know, that maybe some the academic input into it was perceived to be... And there's a leases by some. But I think that the degree to which issues like care and gender and the the everyday experience of them, issues like poverty, on the issues I've just described really weren't...
You know, they they didn't really surface in the language of the conference. Now having said that, I think there was some really good things served thing, and it did give us some ways to change the conversation. For me, like, that... There's there is a big debate
about the language of of growth. Anyway, you know, like, the d move and post growth, re rethinking and growth are all attempts to really be critical of of growth at the center of of of what's causing bolt inequality and trying it, degradation. And it conference to some degree clarified for me that we really are talking about economic growth. That deal there's a welcome for other forms of growth, including growth of well being growth of care. But maybe the language of G doesn't re...
It's it's not good enough to capture the the nuance in the framing of it in that way. And, but the other word that came through to me loud and clear was was sufficiency. And I'm the sense that sufficiency allows us talk about need and have sufficient income and services to live a decent life, but also it needs to talk about wealth distribution and points in both directions because some people have more than sufficient. And some people have less than
sufficient. So I think that that to me is a good word. And you're were talking about, like, the the degree to which the political balance in in the Eu is changing, and the degree to which the European Green deal will be, you know, vulnerable in the context of the new politics and the new political regimes as they're
emerging. But 1 thing I got from the rethinking conference wise The agree to which some of the policies and practices that are emerging from the Green new deal are embedded in law and policy and financial institutions. The better date they are and the harder they are to just launch. And and I think that's what El laura laurent was saying that the conference was that we really look...
We need to look at how to embed sufficiency into all the institutions that we have, and I do a lot of work on eco social welfare, And the own welfare institutions And I think the... If we start talking more about welfare institutions, including housing rory as you do. I think we get nearer to the lives of people because That's what you talked about doing Was embedding the principles of the great New deal and just transition into the Welfare institutions. So that they are
seen in the daily lives of people. And people see that they benefit from them in a really material way. I think that's where we need to change the conversation. To start talking about, I mean that kind of thing
a little bit more. I have to say 1 of the most in interesting challenges that the conference was from them, Boy who responded to the, the 2 key speakers at the beginning from a global south perspective, and he really challenged the the speakers about the the idea that maybe be d growth and those types of concepts aren't doing enough to convince people in the global selves that they will not pay a bigger price for
for for D... That the D would be go North project that maybe the Global South will pay for I mean, he questioned who we are. He quite... You know, he he questioned about the agency in the room. I think he really put it back to us to to really take more responsibility for taking on I'm making clearer about the implications of our ideas and our debates for the go without. And I I... I'm, you know, from a post and this kind of way he talked about, you know, where does nature fit into those kind of
conversations. So a lot going on. A lot to think about But I am I am left with the overall sense that we need a different conversation, and and we need to bring inequality and in all, it's fast. It's much more upfront into the conversation about climate so that people can see its relevance to them. And also how a better world can benefit them to. And because people are not seeing that they're not hearing is. They're not that it's not being our articulate clearly you know. I
think nuts. You know, Yeah. No. I I think I think you're absolutely right. That was my sense as well, coming on away from it dash. The, you know, this idea dash
you can... And I think that, you know, when we look at what's happening in terms of politics and people and and what we've talked about here, that you have to push, you know, the the issues that are affecting people whether it's housing, you know, our health care or, you know, just the stress anxiety of life, it has to be central to the green
politics. And if it's not, then green politics will just get lost because I think that we know that the agenda from, you know, the top from, you know, corporations and from fossil fuel companies and and the billionaires, they don't want the climate agenda you know, aside from the the... Well, their own particular version of creating
alternative planets and all that. But, like, you know, they don't want that embedded because of the change and therefore we need to win the public so that they push for this, you know, green transformation, but they're not gonna get behind this. Unless it is also addressing those was very real issues that they are living through, and that's what really struck me. And I think that for me 1 of the pivotal moments in the green party's involvement and government was the eviction ban.
And their decision to support that eviction ban, the lifting of it. On the base of all the different arguments are. But for me, that was For me it was 1 of the pivotal moments that they should have said actually, what matters here is all the thousands and thousands of people are gonna be made homeless. And we understand yes, we have to get green politics in, but there's a point at which you also have to stand up. For social justice and you will lose people. And I think that was 1 of the moments.
And I think that there will be many more, you know, in the future of these, but it does for me just that you can't as you say separate. And I think that maybe that should be the learning for green politics that for those who really want to progress you know, transformative green politics that has to be embedded with social justice and it can't be separated. Sir, you want to commend your thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, I think that's what I
meant. You know, when I was talking about how I feel like the greens have been quite middle class in their approach in that You know, it is. It's it's it's it's not... It's treating the symptoms of climate change, of you know, what is happening with the environment rather than the actual root causes. And the reality is, like the root causes of the climate crisis of same as the root causes of inequality. They come from the same route, and they are interconnected, You know, we had...
The once we had this this this increase in industrialization and this this view of the planet as a natural resource that could be turned out into an output that could then be profit from you know, we started viewing the earth as something that was dead and that could only be brought to life through through being made and and output, You know? So I think it it is It's it's very frustrating, you know, because it's it's kind of giving a bad name to environmental.
You know, as a climate activist, I've had a lot of conversations with different people who have accused me of, like, not caring about farmers and not being interested in in talking to them are listening to them in and it's like, no, That's that's a very specific type of environmental, you know, I think there's this view that the climate is somehow above politics. I mean, I know members of the green party have said that they are above politics. So they're not left
or right. They're above that. No That's possible. And it it is it's it's really frustrating because it does alienate people it makes them think that they... That it is a middle class issue. That it is something that they don't have to care about or that they can't care about because they have more immediate issues, and it's also just incorrect to to treat it as something separate. It isn't... It's it's the same thing. And and as human beings, you know, it's we don't...
We shouldn't just have a right to housing. We shouldn't just have a right to, you know, live out of poverty. We should also have a right to a healthy environment. We should also have a right air we can breathe that doesn't affect our health. We have... We also have a ride to have our future generations, our children and our children's children to live in in a secure world. Where they have access to water and to local and and locally produced food that isn't overly processed.
And that that's the case for everyone across the entire world. I actually, I as part of my role as a as a Un youth adviser, I talked to the... There's a speech writer for the Un secretary general. And he recently gave a speech on the fifth of June on world Environment Day. And 1 of the things, you know, he did is he called for Ba advertising for fossil fuels, which is amazing. But I said, I I said, you know, you need to talk about the cost
of living crisis. You need to talk about the fact that everyone across the world especially those in the global south where new prices have increased. I think in Zambia, they've gone up and this is an old statistic I read maybe last year by, like, a hundred and 23 percent or something ridiculous like that. You need to address that, like, this is the the default of as an economic system that is both destroying the planet and also destroying people's lives that... That's the same thing.
And then, of course, you know. What was his response? We didn't add it in... Just didn't put it in there. III mean look. I I said, I said I was like, it wouldn't be amazing if, like, he criticized the global economic system. I remember the first meeting we had with him. He's like, I'm I you know, I'm a democratic socialist or something. I was part of the social democratic party in in in Portugal, And like, as if this justified, You know what I mean? Like, I I don't know.
It's just... It's very frustrating. It just feels like nobody is willing to actually challenge the systems that are in place. Somebody in the the rethinking growth conference in a breakout room said that, the current market system we have is the best possible economic structure that there... There's no that it's working or not anything that it's working, but there that there's no alternative. And it's it's it's just so frustrating because
Yeah. There's no willingness to actually challenge anything. There's no political will. I think this is the thing I got from the conference. People had these amazing solutions. You know, talking about wealth inequality, and and not just in terms of billionaires and and poor people, but also in terms of, like, the the kind of inefficiency with... That that
in how wealth is actually allocated. Mh. So Like, you know, there was 1 woman I can't remember her name, but but she was talking about, how, like, local authorities get money, and then you know, there's is not necessarily as much transparency about where that goes, or it's not allocated properly, and I know in my experience when you work with, like, arts organizations it's the same in government, they get a limited budget, then they have to spend all of that money or they get less money the
next year. And that's such... Or just even the fact that that we have signed a treaty in Ireland, That basically means that we have to either run a surplus or have a magical balanced budget, which is effectively impossible. Like it's it's like market equilibrium, you know? And so we have this massive surplus just sitting there. For a rainy day, and it's not being used for anything. It's just... I I just found that really interesting but the wealth is actually physically there.
But it's just not being used properly. And this is the thing. There's all these solutions, but there's no political will. And what really frustrating me about the conference. And I understand that it's probably something to do with academia, not necessarily you know, academics are not in power necessarily. But there was no action plan. There was nobody saying, okay, and and now we need to go out on streets. And now we each lobby our our government.
I remember when you were... Is really funny when you're on your cattle rory, when the facilitator was, like you, who's gonna run, and he were like, I will. That was really funny, because I was like, that's the exact thing. Like, there was no discussion of of how we actually implement these changes. You know? And I just found that really, really frustrating. Because I've been to so many conferences where we just rehash the same things. And, obviously, conferences and these discussions are very
important. We needed to to come together and have discussions and, you know, like, introduce ideas to 1 another those kind of cross poll. That's very, very important. But then at the end of the day, we just go home, and that that's it. And we, you know, we know we know from experience that that protest and direct action, and and then advocacy legislative of advocacy along with direct action is incredibly powerful.
I mean, the only reason there was a green ways in this country was because of the climate strikes or at least, I would say 90 percent of the reason. Yeah. Yeah. The only reason that that we had a climate emergency declared in this country that we had a climate action plan in the first place ever was because of the strikes. Because it gained attention and and it mobilized people. And, yeah. And I I just find it extremely frustrating
I don't know. Direct action is is almost thought of as like Naive sometimes, and it's just like everything that we have ever won. You know, our our our working our weekends, you know, an 8 hour working day, a minimum wage, socializing housing of any form that has always been won because of of movements of people pushing for change.
Yeah. I think I think that that's part of the the issue, and and, Mary maybe respond as well that you know, the the green movement itself, You know, there was the climate strikes and there was that huge wave of the movement. And as he said, Covid had a major impact on that. Essentially, you know, stopping ish, but then also, you know, green parties and a certain level the European Union took up the politics of the movement and said, okay, We're going to implement this as you say.
But then The movement itself the structures, you know, went away and there's still, you know, extinction rebellion, and there's other, you know, but it's not the same. And I think that's interesting. How would you respond to that, Mary in terms of that. Thank you, Roy. And You're. I mean, how does change happen? I mean, like, you know, I mean, I suppose I I would see the collective mobilization and the movement as part of the project of of creating the demand for change.
And then the the more institutional politics, if you like like, the party politics and the legislation on the policy development as as responding to that demand by supplying the kind of change that's been demanded. After to some degree I think the conference book maybe more about this supply side of it. The ideas for what needed to be done than how to create the demand, and there was maybe a bit of a a latent assumption that that demand is there. And and we're saying that it's it's
not there. And the degree to which maybe it was there 5 years ago has has has that, you know, eased. And certainly me, I think that level of demand for systems change and for really transformative politics and and practices isn't there to the degree that maybe it was there. And, 1 thing that worries me in in the middle of all that is is you know, that... There's other types of demand for for, austerity for physical rules, for a sharpening of the practice of of money management at the
level of the Eu. That is been supplied. It's been demanded by elites and it's been supplied by elites in in the European Union. And any good changes that are coming out to your client policy. I'm in the context of a very contradictory set of economic side rules that are... That don't really make sense for the 2 of them together policy 1 thing that, I suppose I I thought personally quite challenged, And Rory will I'll be interested in you're taking this. I know you're you're you're doing
the engineering. That's for ask questions But... No. Absolutely. It's a conversation. Democracy is really challenged. You know, I mean, you know, taken democracy is a very big thinking, including the mobilization and participation of people in the various forms of direct action. I I would include that as part of the repertoire of of different forms of of of democracy. But I do
think that we are... We're quite challenged. We talked about it earlier about listening to each other and hearing each other and actually engaging with each other and respecting each other in those conversations. That we're we're finding it difficult to find ways to actually have conversations. But I think we're really challenged as well in our democratic practices, whatever they are via direct action or encompassing or being members of political parties or trying to get off.
The the time frame that some of the climate actions on and the climate targets and deadlines are in are so tight that they're creating a kind of a pressure on democratic politics that's pushing politics a bit towards managerial or techno democratic kind of politics because it's it's about managing timescale scales and demands and targets and, you know, it it's that kind of managerial, whereas you know, what we really need is time for talking and time for listening and time for
understanding and and that's a very different time scan. And I think 1 thing we we'll have to get our heads around, and I don't know how you do it is we need to operate with different concepts of time. I think, like, what we're on thinking and we're using the same idea of time, and that is linear and that, you know, we're we're we're... It's very fast and it's accelerating. But actually, there's very different concepts of time like there's earth time is very, very deep.
Sergio mentioned the seventh generation concept of time thinking for maybe 2 centuries worth of time, political cycles are very short term. We know that. There's a real challenge to get the political system to think more long term and to invest. In more long term planning, and then capitalism works in nano seconds like financial capitalism makes speculative financial gain in Blink of an eye I mean, you can't... You can't
see it so fast. And and, yet, we're trying to talk about a system that cope with all these different levels of time at the same.
Time. And and I don't really have the answer for that, but I do think that democracy is quite challenged at the moment at Pascal, who at the conference mentioned a book by John tomas mike called in the long run, and it was it sort of an politics and democracy, what what does it look like when people don't have a good enough concept of a future because the whole idea of democracy is you kinda get into different political parties with different visions of the future and he kinda can
contest out those visions. You know, I mean, that's very crude approximation of party politics that representative democracy, But he was saying that, like, 1 of the problems now is that those political parties and people who support them. Their their vision of the future are contest is much more cloud by uncertainty and insecurity and and lack of vision about about the future. And that makes the role and function of political parties as ar of the demand for change, and much weaker.
So it makes direct action, search, I think much more relevant. It makes civil society much more relevant. But the At the same time, we see civil society getting choked. You know, we see negative the state and its regulations. We see pressure on advocacy groups. We see less money. We see fragmentation of civil society. So III worry about that space a it because I don't... I've mean,
been in the... I'm I'm in the middle of it from a different perspective that you are sir, but I just worry about about it all work and there's so much pressure on civil society to be a democratic actor in the public sphere, and where the democratic system isn't seems to be as capable maybe as delivering as it needs to be. So I think there's a there's a lot in that space that I think we need to really inter
more. You mentioned and Mary Mc at the conference he talked about the role of community Wealth building in local government. And I I do personally think that local government local democracy, local direct action, local civil society is probably a space that we really need to invest in because a lot of what will need to come down the line will be local. There'll
be... You know, there'll be local resolutions and solutions to some of the the intricate kind of sufficiency issues that will arise in the context of trying to meet what our lives need in the context of of climate. And so I I think invest in local strengthen a local democracy and. Local civil society is probably something that's why we're doing. That... It's that from Den Team competitive at moment because I'm like, for... There was a lot of critique of academics at the conference. Yeah.
I felt III quite enjoyed. Like, you know, I I would agree with a lot of us, but what, wondering I think some academics are trying to do is to think through that teasing issue of time and democracy and the challenge of con join them and how will we work this out collectively as it as a species as a planner as like, what how do we do is part of the institutions that we need in our democracies, what needs to change there because we talk about policy change, but we don't necessarily always link
that to democratic change. And a change in democratic institutions that we might need to make to to actually help us figure it out decide what to do and implement it. Yeah. I I think that's... They're really really interest in reflections and thoughts and there was a number of things that come to mind when you're
talking and there. 1 is the, When we think about timeframe frame and change and we look at what happened around Covid and how much change happened so quickly and what we did and how we mobilized parts of our society and we took the entire health system into public ownership and, you know, we did things that we never thought were possible because there was this common agreement essentially that we needed to do it. And for me, you contrast that with the response to the climate crisis.
There is not a common agreement with what we need to do, and it's about interest and whose interests are driving what the response is. And I think that there is still this, you know, fundamental contradiction and problem, which is that those who are driving and who have power currently and who are wielding the influence over power are very large corporations who do not want the
the fundamental changes that are needed. And so we're fighting that and challenging that and even in terms of time and we look at social media, we look at, you know, the whole sis is about trying to comm modify every part of our lives and and as you say, make as much, you know, profit as possible from every second of our interaction with each other. And,
you know, how do we change that? And and I react whenever, you know, pascal and that gives us, you know, lovely reflection because this is the, you know, a member of a a government who implemented austerity and who then as Sr pointed out, you know, failed to invest any money we had brought in vulture funds, and you go, what what what are the conditions that have created this sense of insecurity in people? What are the policies that have created this sense of? Insecurity.
And they are the policies of austerity and the policies that haven't invested in public housing proper job security. And I go... If imagine if we were in a place where people had homes, secure homes, secure jobs, we were much more equal society, we would be responding very differently to the climate question. Than how we are now because people are responding as you say an and taking up what you said around feelings. People are responding from their feeling of complete insecurity,
no sense of the future. They're looking at their kids who going where are they gonna get a home? And, you know, are they gonna be? What decent job, will they will they work in? You, what's the point in in getting, you know, third level qualification? Are they just gonna emi? And and that's, you know, Ireland, but that's across, you know, across, you know, many countries now. There's this sense.
The sense is not just insecurity about the future and climate the sense is it's an economic insecurity, and then fueled by the Far rise and the anti immigrant, you know, anti asylum seeker, the racism, this fueling of asian division. And I I go back to the point that if we created and gave people the things and ensure they had housing health care, you know, decent jobs, that then gives security from which you can look at okay, what are the wider changes we need to address climate.
And I think that this idea that you know, you've pas Don and your father talking about it oh, you know, this insecurity and that... Well, your policy created it, and we need You know what And I do think you're right around the local, and, you know, that question was asked, you know, how do we get this change? And I do think the
unfortunate reality is it is a comp. A combination of the local action, the local change, combined with national level governments who can do things like stop the investor funds who can invest properly in housing who can invest in health, and then it has to be global as well in terms of how we respond, and it takes people operating at all those levels And then in terms of academics, I think there is a real role for academics to be, you know, change leaders, change makers involved in that public
advocacy in in ways that, you know, yourself myself and others have been an r, and but that is a challenge academics as well, I think. And that's that's my response that you've pulled me into our responding And I'm like, oh my God. Am I interviewing or am I responding? What am I do? Sorry. That's okay. No. No. We're chat. Or chatting exactly. Sir, do you wanna come back in?
Yeah. I mean, I think even when you're talking about it, if if people had communities if they had affordable housing if they had public transportation that that, you know, got them where they needed to be. These these kind of very basic things. The climate issue would be significantly reduced just by virtue providing those things to people. And I think that's a really important thing. Climate action it like Was saying it it doesn't have to be separate. It isn't separate.
It shouldn't be separate From from actually changing the system from the economic system changing, as I was saying, what we value, you know, changing what we eat and where it comes from Yeah. It's it's it's so... It's just... Yeah. I don't know. I... I think you're right there and that... And that in terms of an it was interested
in the shame... Shared 1 of those memes for people who were saying, you know, what if it's all a hoax, you know, and we make all these changes for nothing and then, of course it's like, yeah, what are the changes that, you know, genuinely, if if you did climate action through a social justice lens and framework, you know, you make the changes around retrofit of homes, for example. And the other example that that, I, you know, again, you know, the generation of renewable energy,
for example, offshore wind? You know, like, why are we handing that over to real estate funds? Why are we not using that to, like, you know, basically, make electricity really, really cheap for people. We could do that. And then you would see, actually, this is a huge benefit and the investments you know, could benefit people rather than, you know, a market approach that doesn't, you know, that leaves people, you know, not benefiting and going Why are we doing this? And... Yeah.
And I think as well, you know, like, that thing again, about local, local kind of change? And and you know, it's it's like with the with energy, especially, we have a real opportunity to have publicly owned energy. It's owned why, like a specific community. And then if they generate excess private energy, they can sell it back into the grid and and make money for their local area, and this is this is a system that has been tested out. And and I feel like, like it's more pride of place
as well. I... Am Michael Cro, actually, he also spoke at the conference In his book, Irish ecology. He talks about Rave lu, which is
like the localized revolution. And what, you know, he talks about rev local language and place names, You know, in San is the ancient practice of place names, and, mythology, you know, stories from the local area, music, songs, really giving people a pride in in their land, you know, like, and and and if they have things like publicly owned energy if if you know, their goods are locally sourced from local farmers, and they're actually engaging with 1
another. Things like community housing that we heard at the conflict. As well... Exactly. Community housing. There's also, like, collective budgeting as well where where communities are given, budget budgets from local authorities, and then they come together to allocate that, democratic, the way they see how it should be allocated. And basically, you know, I think
we often glorify especially young people. You know, we glorify this this idea of, of this great big revolution that overthrow the system, but I think it's it's it has to start at the local level that has to start with again giving people that pride place. I I read a a book recently that... Which was published in 2000 and mind the spirit level. Yeah. Why... Yeah. Yeah. You actually referenced it in your book. I remember now. I just featured Wilkinson and Kate Pi. Yeah.
Fantastic book. Yeah. It's incredible. And, you know, they talk about how how if you have, like, a strong sense of community, there's a sense of trust and Rug Red as well, he also talks about, you know, the power of community. He, you know, he says that human beings are friendly creatures. He... That's how we evolved. It wasn't necessarily survival of the fit, but because we are in very social beings, So I think it's, like, creating...
And I know myself, like, I, you know, III have never really felt that sense of community. In my local area. And I think it does change the way you see in the world, it just change the way you see people around you. You know, if you don't have that common sense of action of a desire for place. If you know what I mean, it it's it changes the way people act. People don't care about their local area. You know, they don't they're not interested
in protecting it. People become quite individualized and social media also contributes to that, You know, it's people maintain this persona, this kind of very isolating element, You know, they compare themselves, you know, a lot of comparison with other people. And yeah. I just think it's it's about really challenging loss we have come to think society means. If you know what Mean? And I read... I also wrote this other really, really interesting book called dark Em by Bruce Pas, and it's about
aboriginal Australian communities. And it really just caught my mind because basically, there's this myth that aboriginal Australians were hunter gatherers before the Europeans came. And this is complete bullshit. Sorry. You know, it it... They actually were operating farming. They they up they ran a surplus of of, they had work tubers, for example, that they specifically planted in different places. Mh. They had a surplus of this, which is 1 of the hallmarks of an agricultural civilization.
They build these really beautiful and intricate fish trucks. Some of these fish trucks are like 60000 years old. And they they were still being used up until the time when when the first European colonize came and actually wrote about them in their diaries. That's where we get a lot of this Yeah. History. And and the fish traps were designed so that smaller fish could pass through, so the fish stock wouldn't be depleted.
Their, oh, fascinating story about how 1 particular tribe had a relationship with killer whales off the coast. Who they are wales. I don't know if... I think there were whales rather than specifically to their whales, But Yeah. Worked in tandem
with them. They actually communicated them. They had this this ritual where an old man would pretend to be hurt, and they thought that the whales responded to this, but the whales would help them bring fish into a specific area, because they had this long standing relationship with the whales, and it was broken when them some European colonize shot 1 of the whales, and and that completely broke thousands of years of of this reciprocity.
But the most fascinating thing for me about it was this idea that that there were individual communities, and individual languages, individual cultures. But they also had a kind of general
morality, I suppose moral code. They would often meet up in places there were festivals where they would gather together and it would be a, you know, a good way of of, preventing inter marriage, for example, but also harvest times, celebrations festivals, And and, obviously, I'm not saying, you know, that we should, like, return to this magical period. I'm not saying that it was magical that they had, you know, that we should just go back to... Because
we can't go back is the reality. I think we have a brilliant example of of how communities could work, and we can cherry pick the best elements to build our new communities. And I think 1 of the most fascinating things is that possibly, indigenous Australians could have been on the continent of Australia for a hundred thousand years, which would make them the first people out of Africa.
So if we wanna look at it from a kind of hobbes perspective or, you know, they're not Hobbes in, but you know, the tea talks about the state of nature. That's our best example. You know, it's it's just... It's really fascinating.
Yeah. Absolutely and points to a whole different conceptual standing of What is human nature and what does it mean rather than the homo economic the individual utility maximizing which we are taught from day 1 in Western societies and, you know, that you are out to, you know, your job is to do the best for you and maximize what you can get and you know, if you were to get up in in in any you know, debate and go will actually, you know, the whole concept, you know, the the
the the wealthy, you know, self made man, of course, man it is, and, you know, this idea that, you know, actually, you know, we are, you know, we rely on each other to you know, get on in life and we need to support each other and is a whole different way of thinking it. But yet, the other 1 is dominant that you know, weakness is kind of, you know, looked down on and vulnerabilities looked down on and
Mary, I... Am conscious now. We're we're having a great cha, but, our time unfortunately is coming to an end. Do you want to give us a a closing reflection there thoughts? Yeah. I Yeah. I do. I mean, the the... I haven't read Dark em, but I've read the dawn a history by Gray and We, which which from a sort of ant anthropology and archaeological perspective looked das. The relationship of of of equal societies in in in capitalist societies. And P draws on that idea of
3 ways that people really survive. 1 is reciprocity as you events in En inertia. The second is redistribution and the third is producing things. And and I would suggest that there was always sort of society re, you know, being reciprocal with each other and that mutual, inter independence, There's always been states that that we distributed in times of surplus or deficit or or war or famine, and then there... There's always been production and and markets maybe for barter rather
than for pro. And capitalism are certainly up abandoned that that that very, you know, centuries young, thousands of millennium long, and relationships that people had. So to some degree, I think what what we're talking about when we're bringing it back to the rethinking growth, We are trying to think through how to rep proportion the relationship between the state, market and society.
To diminish the role of the market and the power of the market in in enabling people live sufficient lives to upgrade the inter independence and the role of reciprocity again, and that's what we've been talking about local communities and the role of of people in the
local community. And that the role of the state in enabling that life in regulating the market keeping it in control and in enabling a facilitating and empowering society to be what it can be and to live the best, you know, to enable people live the best lives they can. I think that's kind of to me people say, are, you talking at the end of capitalism. I don't think it's the right question because
it's not enough of a vision. It it's about trying to imagine the role of the state society and the market differently. And move towards that. And I do... I I do feel there's a lot of that thinking coming together. I hear the el Loren ends at the, you know, the big... The big global kind of academics, talking that kind of language of sufficiency, and I hear social activist talk is and and I think there there is ideas coming together. But we are still at the level of
how do you make the change happen? And how can you make it happen in a time frame? I'm in a democratic manner that will bring everybody with us in in relation to that change? So I I don't think we have all the answers to that yet. So to leave it on on on that Maybe. Yeah. No. That's really, really interesting, Mary. Thank you. I think that's a very very, kind of good way to put us forward, And it was interested in Sao. I think I read your were,
profile in the examiner. You did an of you was 1 of the the leading, young people in terms of climate change, and you you... In your... In that interview, you spoke about you know, feeling, I can't remember what phrase
you'd describe. But, like, feeling the challenges or, you know, it's hard or or alien at times or isolating But then when you come together with other people, you know, who who, you know, are thinking in terms of social justice, thinking in terms of you know, bigger change that you get, you know, energized again, and I always feel that as well that it's so interesting.
It can be so it happens so quickly by yourself to get, you know, a bit deflate a bit d rejected, but as soon as you come together with other people and and you know, we energize each other, and I'm struck by that as another purpose of those conferences, but also the movements as well. Why the movements are so important? Because people do need each other to continue.
Particularly when we're coming from a place of outside to try and change a system, You know, when you are constantly you know, facing challenges, you know, being excluded, being ignored by the system that, you know, and and, you know, going against what what the mainstream and what the system in all, it's different formats is trying to do that there is that importance of coming together and I suppose the importance of the podcast like this as well, be able to... There's people can hear...
Which which looks as, you know, how people get get really profound motivation and that a lot of it is from nature and things like that. But 1 of the biggest ways that people get all in their lives is by communal coming together. And that's why people go to football matches. That's why you want concerts that's what, you know, people really flock to things where they can feel communal in collective together.
And So III think that's really... It's a deep part of human nature that we we really want to do things with each other. Yeah. And I finish on your 1 on the feeling, Mary. Of the need to connect with the feeling. So I'm feeling really good after this conversation. I hope you 2 are too. How are you feeling Mary? How are you feeling sasha? I am feeling better than when I started
yet. No. I am feeling good. And I mean, I I think that the value of that rethinking growth conference bars that coming together and and the collective thinking. That we were all doing. Mh. And, you know, we've been maybe cri critique us in some of what we've said here, but that's not to take away from to bring together a very significant large number of people to think through things. I think it was at a moment of our as well. Sao. How are you feeling? Yeah. Amazing,
good. I... I think I'd... As well, I think the conference, you know, these these conferences 1 of the best things about them is is that they they always... I think in that in that profile, I was talking about a specific experience, I had at cop 26 in Gala glasgow in 20 21.
Where there was a big walk out from the conference and we had protests, the massive, like, protests circle, and it was just an incredible experience and I think back to it all the time just being able to be there with people and and knowing that they understood what we are all experiencing and how we all felt that grief that frustration. And so it is it is really amazing. But 1 thing I will say is I think with these conferences, we need more voices that are not necessarily
from the status quo. Oh, not even the status quo, It's not the right word. But we need more young people, there was only 4 young people at the speaking, and 3 of them were on a panel specifically about students. And I was the only 1 who's was not on a student specific pile, and I felt there should have been more youth engagement. We need more thinkers from the global south. We need more people from, you know, in it needs to be a multifaceted approach. It needs to bring in everyone.
And I think that that's something we need to do, like, community needs to be for everyone and Ac be with everyone. We can't kinda create communities that are separate from 1 another if that makes sense. Because they already exist, and that's that's the problem. We need to create 1 big kind of community that... That's a pushing for change Entirely. But we need to help each other do that as well I think You know, you know, it... That's that's part of the challenge.
Absolutely. And and it is about finding ways to do that and shout out to John Barry, fresh John Barry Queens. And Caroline White as well and Davey Phillips, Martin. And all the other organizers who did, you know, pull it together and you said, I think that there, you know, there's lots of ways in terms of people can go forward around whether it's extinction rebellion or it is kat the 10 union or it is a political party or the community,
housing movement or cool and others. There is lots that people can do and we encourage Listeners to do and I know many of them are. So listen thanks so much Mary and Sao. I really enjoy that conversation, and I know our listeners will have too. So and, thank you everyone. I hope you're, and, if you can, enjoying the summer somewhat, as the rain falls, but, great summer here. But listen, thank you so much everyone We are podcast produced by Tony Groves.
Of To Shack, if you can, please become a patron support us to keep the show on the road, and thank you so much for those Who we're sharing it around and please keep doing that the more people that can hear at the better. Keep the conversation going. Thank you so much everyone. And will talk to you all very very soon.