Presenting: Your Magic: Virgie on the Power of Pleasure

I think you're going to love this episode because Michelle and I talk about how diet culture messes with your ability to connect to your unique special sauce magic, and the academically prove an importance of gossip. Michelle also gives me a deep tear jerk or tarot reading about how to rely on other people, more of the deep wounds we know so well, Rebel Eaters, bonappetite. One of the principles of magic that I subscribe to and that I think is so powerful is the notion of the interconnectivity

of all things. The idea that plants and the trees and the oceans, and the human body and the galaxy and stars that they're all connected. This is your magic. I'm Michelle T. Today I'm pulling cards for Virgie Tovar, the speaker, teacher, writer, and podcaster whose activism in the fat positivity space is intersectional, confrontational, intellectual, and deeply pleasure centric.

We're going to talk about miracles, hunger, and intuition. After that, we're visited by Brand Taylor, a queer, which crossroads worker and ritual chandler at Magic Hour. They have a spell that helps us channel our big emotions into powerful energy for change. Stay with us, Okay, I'm going to take what might be a contra virtual stance in the WU community. It's certainly been a controversial stance in my family, and

that is forgiveness is overrated. When I was younger, a man in my family took some pretty disturbing liberties with my person. It created a culture of secrecy and fear in my home that festered and really impacted my mental health. Pushed to question my reality, my intuition was decimated. A lot of my magic work as an adult has been about restoring my sixth sense, learning to feel it again and to trust it. When this guy was finally busted, he did what a lot of busted creeps do. He

apologized profusely. Was he sorry? Probably? I believe his story and experience are actually quite complicated, and that he had his own torments. But guess what not my problem. In a perfect world, the sorry man would be removed from my reality so that I could get support and heal. But I think we know that this world is pretty imperfect. The thing that really got to me and it actually still makes me sting with injustice when I think about it, is how pressured I was to forgive him. My anger

I was told was toxic. It is true that anger and resentment are powerful magics and carry a tremendously potent charge, and in this way they are fantastic tools to use in short bursts for self protection, to push for justice, to guard the vulnerable. Make them your main energy, and sure it's likely to turn on you, but they have their place. When my family insisted I trade my sacred anger for trumped up forgiveness, it just made me more angry.

It would have made everyone else's lives a lot easier if I had been forgiving, which in my alcoholic New England family is a little synonymous with forgetting. But I felt my anger like a furious goddis in my heart, demanding that I be made safe, and that my trespasser have some consequences. My refusal to forgive him caused me to be estranged from my family for quite some time.

Maybe I'm just a rebellious aquarian, but that experience has made me a little suspicious about the reverence with which forgiveness is treated in our culture, In a culture rife with systemic injustice, where accountability is tough to come by, When I see forgiveness being pushed, it makes me ask, like, at whose expense? Who benefits from the forgiveness? Did they earn it? Who is granting the forgiveness? Were they coerced? I want in my magic toolbox all of the devices

I might need as I move through this life. There is no good or bad magic, no light or dark, certainly no black or white. There's only energy, energy that we try to use for our highest good. And what that might be is sometimes a really tough call. Now, let's go talk to Virgie Tovar. Virgie Tovar, are you here? I'm here? Oh my god. You know what is magic, Virgie Tovar is your voice and your giggle. Your voice and your magic voice and your magic giggle. It is

so amazing to hear you. Thank you so much for being a guest at your magic. Oh my pleasure. Oh man. I guess my first opening question for you is what is magic to you? I kind of I realize, right, like one of the things that I'm fascinated by is physics. Okay, So like we have this concept called physics, but other people,

perhaps throughout time, have called it magic. Yeah, right, like we have we have all these things that we have, all these sort of sciency like we imagine like a white man in a lab coat like talking about this stuff. But it's like, you know, I think that not only in other parts of the world right now, and certainly I think in the West perhaps historically a lot of

these forces were considered magic. And so in a similar way, I do think of physics and magic as connected um as in the sense that like, right, like they are governing forces, like they are things that the universe and humans and plants and treat like everything is governed by um and and I kind of think of it as, you know, like it shapes the universe. I So I think like in that way, I kind of see it in the same way that I maybe conceptualize gravity or

something like that. And I think that like when we do magic, when we engage in magic, we actually kind of shape the universe. It's it's all around us all the time. Um, and so you know, but for me, the sort of like gorgeous edge to everything. Yeah, like think about the bumblebee. Okay, Like a bumblebee is like a tiny little fat bear with little wings and according to physics, it's not supposed to be able to fly

because it's too big, but it does. And so I mean and so like that for me, I'm just like what like I mean, that tiny, tiny example of magic. It's like I'm just like, you know, how can we deny that we live in a magical universe if we have actual creatures that we that are all around us that defy physics, Like what is that thing? And so anyway, that's like that's a tiny, tiny example, but like that's kind of what magic means to me. I love it. I love it, and I'm so down with the physics tip.

I love to think of science as like, um, it's trying to it's kind of mapping the mystery, right, it's mapping the magic. You know. Yeah, I like I like thinking of magic and science sort of intertwined in that

cool way. And I do think a lot of things that are magical are just scientific things that we haven't we haven't gotten the science for it right right well, and some of it is like literally just words that have been put to magical phenomenon and then we call it like you know, empirical, and I'm just like, just because you can explain it with your words doesn't mean

that it's not like completely wild. But I just think about, like you know, I think about like like a cap, like a cassowary or a or wrap, like what the fuck is that? What are what are these things? And it was like it's like, yeah, you can, you can taxonomize it. You can understand that it comes from dinosaurs, you can know how it has babies, but that doesn't

mean you get it. But it doesn't you know. So anyway, I think like some of it is like I agree, like it's some of the stuff is just like mystery. We don't have language for it, and even science e dudes get it um. And then there's stuff where it's like even if you can understand and can nap every single part of that creature or that phenomenon's reality, I mean it doesn't matter, like it's it's wild, you know, I don't Yeah, yeah, thank you for invoking the Cassowary.

I mean that it's a yah yeah, and it's a thing. It's like if we if we had located another planet with life on it and saw like a cassowary, we would be like, yeah, wtf look at this alien feature. Totally. Um,

what is the spiritual or religious story of your family? Okay, so it's kind of like, you know, it's it's it immediately actually brings up another side of magic, which is that, like, you know, I was raised by Mexican immigrants, and in Mexico as well as a lot of other parts of the world, like the magical, the inexplicable, and the observable empirical are there's not a binary the way that there kind of is in the United States, right, So like,

for instance, your uncle, like it was totally possible that like your uncle could die of the evil eye, and that's discussed with the same earnestness as like anything else. You know. Yes, the short answer is I was raised Pentecostal, which is like the super stifling sect of you know, Christianity, and most people are really surprised to hear, like, having been raised by Mexican immigrants, that I wasn't raised Catholic.

And the interesting story there is that so my great grandmother was the last practition of Mexican Catholicism, which is very focused on the version of Guadalupe and like the relationship to and the engagement with like that figure, that feminine figure. So the story goes that my great grandmother was so and I mean right, like Christianity is both you know, it's religious, but it's also cultural in Mexico.

So you know, I don't know the level of like engagement that my great grandmother had with the church, like the Catholic Church or whatnot, but she was a devout version of Guadalupe worshiper and like and devout Catholic. And my grandfather was sort of known for being more of like kind of this like you know, guitar playing, a little bit of I don't know, like I don't think like sort of somebody who was like not a part of the church maybe and maybe what we'd call an agnostic.

I just kind of think it's like it's almost not quite a philanderer, but somebody who's a little bit like associated with like, oh, that person isn't a churchgoing person, which has a little bit of a disparaging tone to it. But anyway, he was kind of known for being like a musician, very handsome. And then there was this traveling Christian dude who was going all throughout Mexico and performing miracles.

So the story goes that my great grandfather is like, you know, off playing guitar like an amazing you know whatever, in like a bar or somewhere, and yes, and my great grandmother is like devoutly worshiping, you know the version. And then her brother, my great great uncle, I don't

even know. Her brother had lost his vision and it was like he was born sighted and then he was slowly using his vision and he was beginning to sort of get into like he wasn't It wasn't a known fact yet, but there were sort of suspicions about it because he had started to change a little bit of

his behavior. And then the track leveler comes through their town of like Monthee, like North Mexico, and it's like, I will heal anyone who has an affliction, and my great grandmother says, you know, heal my brother's blindness, and he does. And then in that moment, my great grandfather is there and he witnesses this and he falls to his knees and says, I am dedicating my life to

whatever religion you practice. And then he became a proselytizing Pentecostal pastor who traveled all over Mexico and did like revivals and you know, and like was in Texas and it was just like Wilder and so he became this

like super religious man. And so I was raised by his youngest daughter, my grandmother, and so you know, part of part of like you know, like his specter was always there because she was so proud of his success, like he started so many churches, and she sort of and there's all these documents of like, you know, these revivals that he would lead and these and he had a newsletter that he wrote. Um, and so it's just and he like you know, put aside everything, like put

aside the guitar. Put it. Well, that's that's not totally fair. He began to play in church, like he no longer drank and all these kinds of things, right, and um. So that's kind of the background of the of my religious you know how my family converted from Catholicism, and I'm always I always think about that moment of like what was it like for my great grandmother to sort of be told like, guess what this like feminine focused religious practice you have? It's like gone now and now

we're gonna like worship this dude. Maybe it wasn't a big deal for her, but something in my life, in my you know, epigenetic knowledge or something is like she probably experienced as a massive betrayal. Like I mean, I just can't imagine like being a woman in like the nineteen tens nineteen twenties allowed to have this this like this like sort of like goddess worship almost yeah, and like how inclining that must have been, even in like

maybe a subconscious way. And then to have your husband, who you can't really defy, tell you that you don't get to do that anymore, and now your job is to be like essentially like a servant to a bunch of people and this God that you don't really know. Like very early on, by the time I was like ten or eleven, I began to question the morals of

what I was being taught. It's just making me think of like how like an organized religions tend to be so patriarchal and oppressive, and then it makes me think of like magic and witchcraft and that those kind of traditions as being like disorganized religion like this, like feminist disorganized religion, you know, where it's like more chaotic and individualistic,

you know, essentially. Um, I would say any practice that connects um feminine people, and I think, you know, all people to a certain extent, but I think because of the history of misogyny and sexism, particularly feminine people with their intuition, is a is a magical practice. And I see things like, you know, reflective things, self reflective things like tarot, like journaling, you know, like processing like talking shit. Um, I see these like I see these as magical processes.

So are you telling me that gossip is part of

your spiritual practice? Yes, I mean they. I mean like I feel like you and I might have talked about this at one point, but there's actual research on, like literally like academics doing research on the social social biology and the social role of gossip among marginalized people and how it's a way of like sharing information in an underground sort of information tunnel and getting affirmation about like your suspicions about certain people and uh, and how it's

really only wasps who don't gossip is what the research kind of in conclusion, and so you know, as somebody who's not a wasp, Like, of course that's part of my part of my magical practice. I love it. I'm

wondering if you can elaborate on how diet culture impacts magic. Yeah, I mean diet culture like viciously steals people's magic, um, right, Like I think, you know, one of the first things that magic, one of the principles of magic that I subscribe to and that I think is so powerful, is the notion of the interconnectivity of all things, you know, the idea that like you know that the plants and the trees, and the oceans, and the human body and

the galaxy and stars, um, that they're all connected, that there is no difference, that we're all made of the same thing, which again is physics um. But like also magic um. But you know, like, and I think that diet culture really comes from a very colonialist, patriarchal tradition, which is one of hierarchy, which is absolutely it's about cutting off the interconnectivity of all things, and it's about saying it's about positioning human and particularly masculine dominion over

all things, like over the natural world. And diet culture really comes from from that, from that ideology, right, and the way that it shows up is the notion of mind over matter. So one of the first things that um, that diet culture does that it undercuts your ability to have a beautiful and generative and pleasure driven relationship to hunger and to eating, which are which are not only like necessary for survival, but are literally biologically designed to

create pleasure. Um. And so diet culture goes in and says, nope, that process has to be regulated, has to be controlled, and has to be guilt written and write like the same in the same way that it's the same methodology around sexuality, right, UM, Like it's an idea that you have, the idea that you have to control sexuality um. And this thing that was biologically designed to help you connect to others and to connect to yourself and to connect to like, you know, your magic um is something that

has to be regulated and controlled and specifically um. You know.

I think that, Uh, there's this really explicit connection to racism in that in the sense that like, right, the whole reason that mind over matter I think became so important and is still so important in our culture is because of the idea that m that like white men deserve to take over and inherit the earth because they have that willpower, and that it is like, you know, brown people and black people who don't have that more animal relationship to the body and to the to earth,

and therefore you know, they need to be controlled, and so a lot of times, right, like that that connection show like right, So diet culture is already always about a practice of racism, and it's already always about a practice of like having a colonial relationship to the body.

Diet culture is like a master gas lighter um in the sense that, like, you know, one of the first things that people are taught or on diet culture is like, you cannot trust your own hunger, which is which essentially is saying you cannot trust your body, You cannot trust your instincts. You always have to govern those things. And and sort of like that that false separation from the natural world, including our own animal bodies, us like a

really fast way to be entirely disconnected from yourself. I gotta tuck a tarot cards here, Virgie. Do you want me to pull some cards for you? Yes, I would love that. What would you like to what should we

pull about? I doubt, Like, I mean, my first thought was, like, you know, I'm kind I am kind of curious about like one transition that I'm in right now that's really terrifying, and really mostly it's just terrifying right now, but I'm kind of aware that it's like leaning towards generative, but it's one of finally accepting that, you know, don't have

to fight battles alone. And I mean literally, like three days ago, I wrote in my Google calendar, I was like day that I welcomed in the notion that I need other people. Oh that's beautiful, and so I just because I mean, like I mean, I've always known it, but it's always been a very reluctant, not even acceptance. It's almost like sort of like a reluctant, like you know, it would be rude to believe that I that I like, got here by myself, and I refused to be that person.

But also like, my god, I hate relying on other people for literally anything, and so that transition into this, so I don't I don't know, Like that's kind of like my headspace is like you know what, Like maybe the question would be like what are the tools I need? What? Um? Like, what what is this problem? Where is this process heading? I don't know, Like that's is that enough? But I do want to ask you, um, what where do you think the um the apprehension to rely on other folks,

Like where does that come from? Have you pinpointed that in yourself? Oh? Yeah, I mean I'm I mean, you know, like I'm a hugely parentified like I was parentified in childhood. Okay, I'm a recovering adult child you know of alcoholic, dysfunctional family people, and so yeah, like I'm just like, yeah, I had to be my own mom when I was

like five. It comes from that and the sense of like that that everything feels really high stakes, like one hundred percent of the time, because it's like if I don't do the thing, and I like me personally, I don't take care of it, the world's gonna fall apart, you know, I do? I do. That's a really classic like way that when when kids are given way too much responsibility and families like that's just that's a classic

way that you turn out as an adult. I'm going to pick some cards and just to see, like what does this path look like as you continue on it? And then I'm going to pick cards from an oracle deck I have that I really love that will offer sort of suggestions of like what different kind of energies and practices can support you. Okay, So right now I'm

shuffling and I'm just asking the deck. All right, So, oh wow, virgie, So your first card that I pulled for you is the Chariot, which is who really great. I'm gonna pull all three and then get a little deeper into each of them. So the first card is the Chariot, Oh my god. The second card is the Six of Cups, which in this deck is titled Pleasure okay, yes, and it's Son in Scorpio. And then your final card is the Hermit. This is beautiful. This is so beautiful.

So the Chariot is so interesting because it's a totally positive card, right, and it's your victory is assured when you get the Chariot card. But it's full title is the Chariot of War, so it is talking about a fight, like you're fighting against something, right, And it's like what you're fighting for right now is like you're pleasure, like

you're because it is a pleasure. It's an emotional pleasure when you allow yourself to be vulnerable, when you allow yourself to like you know, Barber set it, people who need people, they're the luckiest people on earth, right. So, and the chariot is a it's cancer and um as an it's an emotional water sign. So but it's you know, the charioteer in the card is wearing this golden armor and cancers are the crab, so you know, they are this little creasure that is so tender that it comes

with this shell. So it's very interesting. It's like this is a card that's a lot about feeling like you need to be self protective, but it's also about like in general, when the when the chariot car comes up, it's like you're on a journey and you're fighting for something and it might be a little bit of a bumpy ride, but you are so committed you're holding on like the crab does. And and that's and that's your and that's your Taurus. You know, that's your Taurus nature.

I get that you're not stubborn about like intellectual areas. You know, you're really open to points of view. But I do think that that stubbornness might come through for you in like your dedication to work and to not being afraid of hard work. You know, in this deck, the top deck, the charioteers also holding what is supposed to be an amethyst bowl full of blood. It's a little goth for you there, but it's about sacrifice. So it's like you're willing to make a sacrifice to get

to this higher ground. And that higher ground is a place of pleasure, you know, where you're able to access like a deeper emotional It's it's Sun and Scorpio. Scorpios are very deep, right, Their emotions run deep, and their connections to other people run really deep. And that the fact that the card is called pleasure. It's like this is very away from that Queen of Swords card, which is very icy and intellectual. You know, you're getting these

warm emotional cards. And then you got the Hermit, which is really interesting, and I think the Hermit is coming up because you know, the Hermit is the character who has to do some really intense work on themselves and they know that it's work that only they can do and they've got to take the space to do it, you know, and they've got to take like the alone time and they've got to do the work. And it's an Earth sign, it's Virgo, and so it's about giving

yourself the structure to kind of do that work. And you know, the hermit goes away because he doesn't want other people's influences. He wants to really see out what is his core truth underneath it all. It's a really beautiful card. It's very and you know, the rendering of it in this deck, there's a It's also about fearlessness. He has the three headed hound of Hell sort of like you know, jumping on his leg and he's just ignoring it. He's like ignoring he you know, he's like, Okay,

I get it. It's scary, but you know, like this is my path and I'm really dedicated to it. And it's about he's holding a lantern and the hermit in all Taro, I think it's always holding a lantern and it's just about finding your inner light, you know. And so this is beautiful. I love this path for you. I'm now going to pick out if you'd like this oracle deck and it's called vessel. So I'm gonna just shuffle, just asking. Okay, we see that Virgie is on this journey,

she's in the chariot, she's headed toward pleasure. She might have to stop off at a roadside cave every now and then and let her hermit, let her hermit out. Your first card that you got is called Trust, and it's this picture of this, yeah, of this like feminine person with her head back and her eyes closed and her long hair is cascading, and there's like a green hand with a heart on the palm and a red hand with the heart on the palm. It's very like notebook,

dutily looking, but also like mystical. And your second one is begin the car and it is an eight pointed starve that's red with like bursts coming out of it, like like rays of light, and also hearts and diamonds. It's really explosive looking. And then you have forgiven right stuff here, man, I know. So it's like, wow, here we go trust, you know, And so much of the work that you do in the world is getting people

to trust their intuition again. And it's like you practicing that yourself, you know, and trusting your path that you're on and trusting the decisions that you've had to make,

and then begin like every day. It just makes me think, how like every day we begin again, right, we begin our day and new and so like every day like beginning this practice over again, right, even though it's a path that you've been on for a while, just to know that it's like it's going to manifest in a new way every day, Like new aspects of it will manifest itself, New aspects of your own interior will reveal itself. So the sense of always beginning, but in a really

positive way, right, And then forgive. I'm sorry you got the forgiveness card. I think forgiveness is highly overrated in the h and the spiritual community. Frankly, I think we

need to make some more room for holy resentment. But you know there, yes, Virgie as I just think everything has a time and a place, and you can't force forgive forgiveness right well, and Michelle might be like forgiving myself, I mean like we can we can claim that process or like when you when you when you told me that it was forgive, my brain was immediately like, you know, there's obviously the traditional understanding of like forgiving the people

who wronged you, but it's also like it can be forgiving ourselves. It can be like, you know, just because I forgive the wrong the wrong door, it doesn't mean I have to do anything else, you know, Like I can just make that gift for myself. It doesn't have to be about doing anything in the physical world with them, you know. Yeah, you can forgive somebody and that doesn't

mean you want to like be their bestie afterwards. You can just sort of acknowledge, Yeah, you can just acknowledge like it's okay, Like I understand complicated forces, you know, worked together to make this terrible situation happen maybe for both of us, and I release I'm releasing myself from

it totally hoof Yeah, seriously. And you know something, and what's really interesting is I picked three cards from each deck, and so underneath the chariot is trust, and I feel like I feel like they're having a little bit of

a relationship. So it's like trusting your journey, trusting trusting what you're the direction that you're heading in, trusting the gusto that you're sort of applying to this path, and then underneath pleasure is begin right, so begin a deeper you know, exploration of pleasure, a deeper um, you know, reverence of pleasure. And then underneath the hermit is forgive. So it is this sort of like like going off

and it's very internal. It's an internal process where you need your internal light to guide you and know that it's like it's coming purely from you, and it's not a pressure from like the culture, because I feel like the culture puts a lot of pressure of forgiveness as a virtue and you know, and I just very suspicious of as a you know, I just feel like, you know, it's like let's deconstruct the power dynamics and who that benefits. But you know, it is also true that resentment can

harm us internally. So I love this. I love this for you. It's really deep and it's really beautiful. Oh I've been like literally tearing up and trying like I just you know, like the whole time. So it's feel it feel like it really resonated really deeply. So thank you, hello listeners. This is brand and I do magical work under the name Magic Hour, and this is a spell to create space for the dark. Big, powerful emotions can push us into a new direction. They are a catalyst

for transformation. They help raise our heart rate, spark our passions, and fuel our voice for change, and this change leads to growth. Growth can ignite revolution, and revolution can bring much needed justice. For inspiration, envision those revolutionary people who allow their big emotions to be expressed and felt deeply, those who channel it through activism and through their art. Now, I believe all emotions are on a continuum, and I

like to think of this continuum as a rainbow. Feelings like happiness, joy, and excitement are part of the day rainbow, and feelings like rage, anger, and grief are part of the night rainbow. All emotions are valid and exist here in a non judgment zone. Both sides of the rainbow meet at the crossroads of the earth to form a full and beautiful circle. Now, to magically work with the darkness,

we need to space for it. For this spell, We're going to make an altar space to honor the dark and to create a place to express the emotions of the night rainbow. You will need an offering for the dark, goddess or deity that you work with today, I'm using black hello wore flowers from my garden, a pen and paper, a bowl of salt water, a dark colored rock or two I'm using a black tourmaline and a gray river rock. A black or dark colored candle holding the intention of

honoring the darkness. Arrange the items on your altar, one at a time. As you place the offering for the dark goddess, imagine the grand doorway to spirit easily opening for you. As you place the salty cauldron, think or say the words, my grief and fear is sacred. As you place the strong rocks, think or say the words, my disgust and fatigue is sacred. As you place and light the candle of change, think or say the words, my anger and rage is sacred. Lastly, you're going to

charge the altar with a poem by Wendell Berry. Write this poem on a piece of paper and place it directly on your altar. Repeat these words whenever you want to magically connect with the dark places. To go in the dark with a light is to know the light. To know the dark. Go dark, go without sight and find that the dark too blooms and sings and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings. Find yourself using this altar wherever you need a space to express your

shadow places and big emotions. Cry, scream, right or sing. Spirit can handle it for here. Your magic honors the complexities of the powerful dark. Thank you, Brand Taylor. I love that so much. This whole concept of the day rainbow and the night rainbow such a simple and strong way to think about the polarities of our emotions and honor them. If you want more of Brand's magic wisdom in your life, please check out Magic Hour. They're enchanted

Candle Company. They're really special. Thanks for tuning into your magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram at This is Your Magic. You can subscribe right here on Spotify. Just do what you have to do so you don't miss an episode, and sign up for our newsletter at this is Your Magic dot Com and get more musings from our team of spiritual seekers. Also, you can email us at hello if this is your Magic dot Com,

we would love to hear from you. This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Raven Yamamoto. We got production support from Veronica A. Guard, Christine Marr and Vera Blossom. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is by John Kimbro. Tune in next week for a conversation with poet Morgan Parker. Thanks for listening, Gosh. I hope you enjoyed that conversation

as much as I did listening back. It's so clear that one it's not only dudes in lab codes who can understand life's mysteries. Two, Cassowaries our excellent proof that just because something has a name doesn't mean it's not totally out of this world. And three, any practice you love, from journaling to gossiping, can help you reconnect to your magic,

intuition and desire. You can check out more episodes of Your Magic Only on Spotify, or you can find the crew on Twitter and Instagram at this is Your Magic and stay tuned for a full season three of Rebel Eaters Club will be dropping new episodes starting May third,