Your Bad Customer Service was No Accident!

Now really.

Really now really hello, and welcome to really No Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who want you to know that service to our subscriber customers is a priority.

It really, no really, so please subscribe.

And customer service is what today's episode is all about, because by anyone's standards, it is getting worse and worse. You know it every time you're subjected to a phone tree, interact with a chatbot, or experience increasingly longer hold times. Really no really, So Jason and Peter went looking for reasons that customer service is getting worse and discovered that

Now here's the guys.

Today, We're gonna We're.

Going to talk about customer service, the field of customer service, which by anyone's estimation, including surveys and statistics, is getting worse and worse and worse and worse. We hate our experience of customer service no matter where. And I came across a story that I shared with Peter about a woman named Lisa Craig who lives in Colorado, who spent a grand total of eleven days over a six month period, eleven full days on hold with the Department of Employment

I'm a check.

It's just and then well, and then the big what begs the bigger question is if we know it and the companies have to know it. Sure, either they know it and can't fix it, or they know it and don't care about fixing it. So we wanted to find out what that is. I got some stats here. Globally, AI customer service market was worth three hundred and eight million and twenty twenty two. Now it's a two point eight billion dollar business because of AI and using using an I.

Find out if AI is improving this.

Well, this is the one that made me crazy because I had seen our guests reference this. But you know me, I like to vet stuff to make sure it's accurate.

I know you.

The oldest complaint none to man in the world is thirty eight hundred years old. It's a clay tablets in the ancient Sumerian city of Mesopotamia, and the detailed message I'm reading this measure it's the best. When you came, you said to me as follows, I will give you Gimmelson when he comes, fine quanty copper ingots. You left then, but you did not do what you promised me. You put ingots which were not good before my messenger and said if you want them, to take them. If you don't want them.

Go away. What do you take me for that you treat somebody like me with such content? And he goes on, it's just like this is in a tablet.

The guy had to sit ship away to write this thing, right, No, let me let me explain something to you. When they did this writing back then, the tablet was still in its soft clay for then the same night the guy who translated this, the person the person who translated it.

Does that to go? Really, what's happening? Yeah? You think you found something? I got the dead Sea? Yeah right, and I gave you ten you gave me by I waited three days. Where they are not the best. It's the earliest yell.

P thirty eight hundred year old people are.

It's good to know they were. But I can't get a person. You send a camera. You said you said the guy would be here. He's not here.

So why a customer service rating is getting worse? Do they not care? Do they know how to fix it? Or is AI around the corner. It's going to solve all our problems. Let's introduce our guests.

Amast Nooma a former customer care consultant at IBM and the author of Waiting for Service. He is an author, a keynote speaker, and consultant and consumer experience technology and stoicism.

You need to find out what the hell that means? H, I know what that means. My fault live in my house.

A founder of the Better Experienced Group, he's one of the world's most highly respected thought leaders anywhere when it comes to customer service and I understand. Without putting words in his mouth, he says, the apparent ineptitude in customer care is on purpose.

Is that the way show this is?

This is a thrill?

It is?

It is true.

I think most of what we experience today has done on purpose, not maliciously, but it's on purpose.

Is it because they don't care? Because in society not like the company is so big? Where else you going?

Yeah, that's that's part of it in less competitive industries. But it's all about the incentive. So if you think when you contact the company, so when people ask me, how do you get better service? Well, tell them you want to buy some press one for sales and they answer the phone right away.

You get a human Okay, Well.

Because when that call happens, the company gets richer. But when you call for service, I already have your money, Like I've gotten your money. Every additional cent or dollar I spent talking to you paying people to just reduces the profit. And as long as that is the economic calculus, then they will bring in people like me, Hey, how can you give them good service so that they're not pitchforks in front of the office, right, But don't spend

So is it truth because we've all gone through this and you don't think about it. Is it true that the first person you get to the first level you get to, their whole job is they ain't going to give you anything. They're not qualified to give you anything, they're not trained to give you anything. And as a matter of fact, they're told don't give them anything, so that if you persevere to the next level, that person may be able to give you something that's intentional.

Right, it's not as bad as they don't have any authority. But these are assembly lines. So you don't give a thousand customer service agents credits ability to issue one hundred dollars credit. You make it a little bit difficult so that the subset of customers will go, you know what, I'm not doing this again, will I will quit? Which impacts the bottom line. And I think this goes back to what I said in the beginning. It's not so much malice, it's just profitable.

It really is. It's just the profit motive, that's what about it.

I know, in prepping for this, I saw a lot about how to build customer loyalty. Isn't there a greater long range profitability from having a customer service experience that is gratifying for the customer rather than you know, say, it seems like tripping over dollars to pick up dimes, right right.

You are absolutely correct, and there's data that validates that that point.

The problem is the average length of a CEO is less than two years.

So the difference between spending money on customer service versus say, marketing, If I give customer service a dollar in five years, I get ten. If I give marketing a dollar next quarter, I get two. Well, I won't be here in five years, so I so you're correct the math. The data is on the side of I've got that on my side, but in the age of short termism, I'm you know, we're fighting a really, really tough battle.

Well.

The other thing, okay, the other part of this is and I saw and I have the list of the companies that do it well, that have trained people and they all feel part of it and they feel included and they get paid. But most of these companies are using call centers part time whatever it is, and they don't care if the person feels fulfilled at their job, they just need vuny.

Correct, you're you're correct.

I often say to people when I talk about this that if you think companies treat customers badly, wait till you hear they treat their customer service employees. So the most popular job in customer service is a call center agent. There's a quote I use in my book. I didn't write it. He writes, federal prisoners have more freedom call center agents, and he is not that wrong. Because you're tendered to a headset. They track how many minutes you spend going to the bathroom. I am not kidding. By

Thank you for calling. It's they take all these humanity out.

The pay is low, and it's because if you think about the evolution of the worker, it's been about cost. In the nineties, Let's ship this to India and then the Philippines cheaper and cheaper, and then press one, press two automation.

Now it's AI. Companies have been awaiting to get rid of. How do I lower lower, lower, lower and lower lower this cost? Now there are good ways. I am a technologist.

They're good ways to do technology, but let's make no mistakes about it, the treatment of those employees. So those employees have no autonomy. There are reading scripts. The only exceptions I'm sure you found in your research. One thing

Oh yeah, you gave an example.

I think it was wonderful, and I forget the copany you'll know where a woman complained all the time, kept going complaining whatever. He reached out there the head of the company, Southwest Airlines and said yeah, see you later, basically because he trusts people more than he trusted this caller,

I don't think I know ten right globally.

Uh And and if it's more than ten, they're usually small companies like there's a there's a Thai restaurant by my house here in Owfolk City. They do a phenomenal job, great customer at scale, and all of them, whether it Zappo's the story you just told is a Southwest airline of the great Herb Keller.

Her Herb is now passed away. And you've heard the Southwest story.

Southwest has changed, right, And they're not the same company because once that's I always ask company people this, how many CEOs came from customer service in the fortune and five hundred? That gives you an indication when I used I used to run a large customer service though for consumer packaged goods, and I was no higher than I was a VP at a big office.

But I was a trash collector.

I was the guy, you know, like, it's customer service, how do we reduce that cost as low as possible?

You know, marketing and sales, that's.

The shiny object, even though long term that's where all the loyalty is, and that's where it is.

So that's that's that's where we are.

But the consumer is also a part of this, and I hope we get there because we the consumers are a part of the problem too.

We are we have become much more demanding.

So I can assume when you get a call and you're in a customer service center, I'm entitled to something more than you're giving me. So there's a whole different aspect, right, Yeah, when the customer.

Calls up and opens with all right, as, it's probably gonna go south pretty bad.

I mean, every call center has a policy for how to deal with profety. I mean, this is how often it happens. I think the general public, especially us, you know, we we do that even where their choices.

It always surprises me the choices people make.

I will I'll pick on Spirit Airlines because they're an easy target.

Spirit Airlines.

Uh, at Christmas they sent us a six year old on a company minor to the wrong city.

Ship them off to the wrong city.

Right, here's the thing about Spirit Airline customers loyal they know about Spirit Airlines. Same thing we'll Walmart customers's website saying Walmart is horrible. They complain from Walmart inside of it. So there's a little bit of this dissonance where maybe we're lazy, we don't want to switch.

Well, we know pain has coming, and we just.

Anyway.

The best sign of great customer service is not because the customers tell them to do it.

It's because innately that you.

Know, founder or that owner knows in his heart, I'm going to own this business for the next fifty years. I'm going to build customer loyalty and we are going to do this right. Will give up a little today because good customer service is expensive, you know, Okay.

So you keep saying that saving cross saving costs, is that the first place they always look to cut.

Yes, because customer service is a game of defense.

You're not playing offense. Customer service is not the reason. It's like the trash collector. You don't move into a neighbor because they've got good trash service. But when that goes wrong, that's the reason you're going to be out of there and you move. And so in a world where we are in a short termism, give it to me now, it gets very hard. And this is why technology becomes the star of the show because instead of hiring people and kind of I could slap technology on the thin and maybe I can.

Okay, So the question becomes, then, is there a future for technology and AI that will improve.

Customers experience of customer service?

Ah?

Is there a future for technology and AI that will improve customers experience of customer service? A.

We're going to spend some time in the wilderness first, so let me tell you how I see it. We had technology in the nineties and two thousand's the phone, automated systems, and we blew it. You know, it started nicely. You have your ATM, you can go in and make a Withdoral twenty dollars. And I would argue the standard, I say is automation needs to be superior than the human. And the proof is when you go to the bank.

But that's the path, all right.

I think I just came up with it, and you, if you scale this will hunt you down. You can be a partner. I just gone to this, ready for this, So listen, I'll hunt you. Listen to this. I'm coming up with this idea.

Listen to the good one.

Because you'll hear what he's going to know. This is genius work. Oh I got him off the phone quick. No, he's going to say this is genius. He's going to know. He's going to know and you're going to know that this is genius. So let me take you guys, did not I tee this up?

Big?

Go with me on this? Not joking? I know the jokey face joky face gone.

So I call a customer service lotline and I'm already keyed up because there's a problem. It gives your choice. Would you like this resolved by George Gastanza? Would you like it resolved by and we have celebrity customer service AI that will resolve your problem?

You have so many problems? Can I just tell you what your problem?

So?

First of all, if I have to record, all right, that's problem number two. So you've gone around me when I've somehow granted you, you're making AI me use my proceed I don't excuse me.

I have to talk to you.

Excuse me, I have no excuse me. How much fun would that be?

You're not using George.

Already talked to Larry and Jerry. You're making money every time. If you can get Larry and Jerry, you get Larry Jerry. You're not getting George Costanza. Got George. You're not wouldn't wouldn't you?

It would?

It would completely alleviate the tension you feel participatory. Nobody who you can do Jyle or you can do like it's all of those reading cards William Shatner.

When mister I want my.

Reef on, mister Shanner, let me tell you how we shutner. I'll tell you something. You're not getting your refine.

I mean, would that you're something?

I know I'm wanting something and.

George Costanzo only I don't. Don't You don't have to sample a sample of the boys and I can take it from there.

You don't want that? Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't making thirty thousands an hour? Where can I start? We could just start when I just went on strike to avoid this exactly after Frank Dresher's listening friend. You may have missed an area, but that would but joking a side that would work right because he's giving people another level of something.

And that's what to make the idea of making the experience at least someone engaging and entertainment.

We did that. People you know who I argue today are going to take seven years to get used that. Andrew Jackson is not giving my money my Vendo money back. Send us on. But look at let me say it's not a stupid idea.

Right, Hey, I think I think you're on to something.

Especially depending on your industry, you may bring a little levity to it.

And you're not so serious, Yeah, because people address it already. You're coming to the thing with a problem. So how do you How many companies now there is no telephone number, there is no office building this company does they're a huge company. How many companies now will not let you even call them or talk to them?

Yeah, it's a growing number.

Maybe the most popular one that recently did it was Frontier Airlines. They just said, no phone numbers, you can't call us, period.

End the story. You've got to use emails.

Is there a way around that?

That you know there is?

There's always a way. So when I tell people how do we change how do we change things? And there are a few pressure points. Number one, vote with your wallet. But number two, when you have this kind of issue, the person who cares are the executives. So and their website's dedicated to this. You find the CEO and the ALLC suite. In fact, you go on there, you just.

Copy and paste. Particularly if it's a big enough.

Company, you shoot them an email and you tell them what your issue is a you know what that CEO does because it's done to me.

He or she doesn't even read it. They hit forward and they say make this go away.

And then all of a sudden, all the things that they say were impossible because all the CEO does not want to get that email. Then social media, but that's the way you need a lot of people are using that now but contacting that and it does impact change because once the CEO gets twenty thirty emails, he goes to whoever is the over that apartment, the CEO whatever and say, hey, listen, something's going wrong with customer service and whatever. That then is will get funded. But it's

Oh. By the way, those chats.

Anytime I do any of those chats, it never understands does the chat also know to wear me down?

Is that also? Is that also a programmed to say make them go away? The chat is actually going then again, I mean unbelievable.

Well, the chatbots if they I have to say, if I'm ever recorded talking to a chat butt, you get you get my attitude.

The minute I know I'm with a chatbot, it's like, do you have it? Are you calling about this?

No?

Did you ever type in your issue? Do you ever type in your shoe? It's just why did I? Why did I bother you?

Will? You will like this?

So the good news is with Jenny I. The chatbots are getting smarter so they can converse in English.

What have you?

I'll tell your story. So Eric, Canada, a customer goes on there is chatting with the chatbot. The chatbot made up a credit policy and then promised to issue them over one thousand dollars with the credit that they did not deserve. So guy gets the credits and the company comes back and says, oh, chatbot made a mistake.

From movin.

He takes them to Small Claims court, wins, and the judge says, you have to honor the request. The body is your employee. You gotta give up. So I'm sharing that to tell you the next generation of chapbots that we're building are actually too smart.

Now you have to control this thing.

It's like a toddler and say, hey, don't go there, don't issue this, don't make things up, and we call it guardrails. So I'm telling you chatbots are getting better, but I'm worried a lot of companies will pull them after this lawsuit because they're scared.

Thing going out and chaf thoughts are like the ending of the producers. You know, they're going to do another Broadway musical. They're selling to the prisoners.

They congratulations, you're now on fifty percent of prisoners of love. Congratulations.

You're not.

You're now on one hundred percent of prisoners in love.

Congratulations. You know I'm twenty five percent. It's just it's just randomly giving people. It's gonna be lost. So it's going I own, Hey, hang on, is gonna Why are you even bothering here? I would buy the competitive brand. I mean yeah, yeah, they went rogue. Wow. So the industry is still got a long way to God.

We do yeah, it is it is? Now, how do you it's we now have a powerful chapbot. It's smart, smarter than the ones you're used to.

Now, it's how do we put enough guardrails so it doesn't go nuts and and do do things.

And what about getting your manager? I don't listen. I told the story nine times. Just give them your supervisor already. Will that get you a supervisor who has the authority?

Yes?

So the way there's an arts to it.

So remember every call is being courted, and they have a deal, and they have a metric that says a moss is a service agent.

You have to escalate as few calls as possible, So you want to be on their side.

So you come in and if you are belligerent, if you are attacking, let me just say this to your listeners. If you are attacking the service agents, you've already missed the plot, like they are just a hostage as you are in this whole situation. So instead you want to go listen. I know you're doing your job. You know you are befriend them. I know you would give me this credit if it was up to you. I get it's not up to you, and you go get me the manager. So now I've given them the keywords because

Wait a minute, you don't only have amount of time. You have time a window.

If you miss it, it's a bad mark on what we call schedule adherents.

Because now I was expecting this manory people. You can't go to lunch with your friend.

What's the turnover? Right here?

At customer service on on average it's in the fifty something percent, so you lose half the.

Those are the go off per how your first room break, but.

The the bad centers are turning over two hundred percent. So you are it's just You're just it's just a giant.

I did poor little India and selected to be well.

Well, we ran out of English speaking people at a price, so you got to go where else in the world do they speak English that I could pay four dollars an hour too? Yeah?

Is that price lading?

Now?

Are they going to different countries? So what countries are they moving to and what price point?

So Africa is the new deal because we've we've run out of people in the Philippines, even the Philippines government. I don't know what this call center work anymore. We have our our economy has involved. India is pushing back, so we're going to places like South Africa right where unemployment rate is eighty percent. So all of a sudden, you know, you get to cost down fully loaded at three bucks an hour, So we're going to pretty dangerous parts. When I used to do this, I went to places

He goes.

You see those guys riding those bicycles, they will chop off your wrist to get your watch. And I had a cheap Cassio watch, and I remember calling my mom and my mom says, what kind of a job.

Do you have?

I go, I run a call center, good place, I'm armless, I'm on me. Wow, but I know where to get a Casio watch. But that's going to change now. So how soon you predict that AI is going to be smart enough lack of a better term, that it's going to be able to converse and do it, do it right and help everybody out.

Yeah.

I think in the next twenty four months, all the easy stuff will be done by what I would call competent AI.

Right.

So an example would be even me just calling in and my airline, for example, and just saying hey, look you didn't give me my points from this flight or what have you. Competent AI will take that out the more complex off. So the hope is the companies get their cost savings because we automate and then we then focus on the on the employees, so they will get their cost savings. But if your issue is complicated, humans are safe those jobs from somewhat protected.

So there you go.

Thank you so much for coming on, Alice Tanuma. If there's going to be a solution, I have a feeling that's coming from you.

Thank you. This has been a treat.

So I'm looking here at the top the Forbes list and I can go to every category. If you want to, you can go to Forbes Best Customer Service list and you can put in by categories. These are just the top the top some of the top customer service. Let me pick Dollywood. You mentioned Dollywood, Dollywood that I imagine would be very good.

Zappos.

We know about Federal Express, quick Trip warby Parker, Valvelene, Instant all Change apparently discount tired pulling customers.

What's the complaint then all this stuff in my tank and what's the complaint.

I guess they do good show trader jos He said, us A A R E. I. Number two is Shick fil A and number one so I guess when you go to chick blink that's a sandwich, right know, they go, okay, all right, we here, yeah, we hear you. And then the ups store is number one, which is they are pretty commodated. Yes they are so, but it starts again. It starts from, like you said, the CEO down and if you're not taking care of your hourly employees, they're not going to really care about.

What did we get today, sir, Well, we learned a lot about customer service, didn't we think you?

But the questions that came to mind is are companies that are older or newer better at customer service? Is it something that has to be refined over years and years? And that sort of got me going down a well of what is the oldest business that is still operating today?

I know what the oldest business is supposedly, but I don't know that there's a singular emporium.

An actual business, not like a like a Ford, No older than that, older than America.

Business way older Gouden printing getting closer really but not Yeah.

Would it be wine making thing? Would it be what would it say, chariots or us? I don't think they're advertising.

No, so that one. I have no idea. What you guys.

The oldest business that is still operating to this day is one thousand, four hundred years old. It's headquartered in Osaka, Japan, and it's called Congo Gumi.

It was began operating in five seventy eight a d.

It's a Japanese construction company that mainly works on the design and construction and restoration of temples, castles and other cultural heritage business.

Wow, and there's such amazing You know what's amazing about that too, that there's no other company that knocked them off to take it, you know, to be the company that they're still doing it.

Well, Japan must have some thing right, because if you look at the ten oldest companies in that are still operating, they are six out.

Of the ten. What are some of the others? What are some of the others just as that are not the Japanese ones? What are the anyone? We'd know?

The oldest restaurant, this one is actually in Austria.

It's uh called the Saint Peter Stiffs Culinarium, which it's at Saltzburg, Austria, and it has been operating since eight oh three.

I wonder if they changed the recipes, the recipes at all?

Are these stiffs fasah?

You know my family here in seven hundred years ago and that's worth of free rice punning? Right?

Wow, Wow, there's a lot of there's a lot of wine brees, you.

Know those sorts of things. Yeah, a family restaurant. Do you think we should redo the rugs this year? Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed the show. If you didn't, the number to call is we don't have a number.

Thank you, Producing, Laurie, producing Dame, thank you Peter, Thank you everybody for spending some time with us.

And uh got and buy something. We hope it does great. Now.

Really that's another episode of really no really comes to a close. I know you're asking me for some good news, like which companies rank in the top ten for excellent customer service. Well, I'm here to serve you. Right after, I thank our guest, a mas Tanuma. He is easy to follow once you know his name. His website is a Mastanuma dot com and Instagram, YouTube, an x he

Us online at reallynoreally dot com.

If you have a really some amazing factor story that boggles your mind, share it with us and if we use it, we will send you a little gift. Nothing life changing, obviously, but it's the thought that counts. Check out our full episodes on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and take that bell. So here updated when we release new videos and episodes, which we do each Tuesday, So listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts

My favorite missions.

Number seven, Public Supermarkets, Number six, l Schwab Tire Centers Apparently they really know how to serve you at tire places number five Trader Joe's, number four, USAA, the insurance company, number three, ARII, the specialty sporting and recreation company, number two good Old Chick fil A, and number one the UPS Store. So if you ever want to get a box of coffee, tires, barbecue, and sporting goods in short and set in the mail sleeps soundly customers, because someone