Scams, Cons, Fraud + Netflix’s Ozark

Now really.

Now really well, Hello everyone, Hello to you Peter, and hello to you Jason.

Hello.

Hello. I'm going to do this whole episode never know what mood.

And this is my authentic accent everyone previously this is a skepe.

You'll see how this thematically plays in this.

I didn't know better.

I think you want to rush my friends.

Welcome to another episode of Really No Really. I am Jason Alexander, sitting here with my top three best friend, mister the box of Peter came in the box that's right. And this is really No Really, the podcast where we explore things that make us say really no really, that's exactly right now this one. This is kind of fascinating you, Peter. So Peter likes to.

Complain to me. I don't know why me.

I guess because we are friends and because I have to complain, all right, Sure, So he's watching Ozar's watching the wonderful series Ozark, which, by the way, I know Jason Bateman like a scoch.

I've met Laura Linny. She's lovely.

It's not like I'm familiar with people on the show. I like the show. I watch the show. I think it's a really well done show, Bravo to everyone involved. Peter will say to me a hundred times over.

Ridiculous, stupid.

You want a money launder? Why would you go to the Ozarks and open a strip club and a gambling boat?

Please?

Oh sure, that's not gonna draw attention. That is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And I do want to point out that he came up with money laundering in the Ozarks as he had a gun to his head, So it wasn't you know, no.

No, no, no, no, no, no exactly. So here's the problem.

I love the show too, and you went, really, no, really is somebody would really no, really?

So we want to get an expert on to talk about that, and also talk about fraud money laundering in general, because there's so many stories of fraud and money laundering today. But let's get to the Ozark thing for a second. So Marty Bird's partner took off with drug money eight million dollars, and they said, you get a launder eight million bucks. He goes to Missouri to the Ozarks and the first thing you do is walk into a strip club. They don't know you, you don't know the neighborhood, and

Okay.

Then he goes to buy another business the same and within a second, these people are going, who is this guy? Why's he got the cash? Within a second and then season two or three, it's like Riverboat and you go, okay, why not just put a target on my back and say the government should check us out?

Who are you? They're going to do a deep dive into you.

Why wouldn't you go somewhere where you could disappear and launder money quietly?

Well, you wouldn't draw atten.

Where would that the.

Brooklyn, the Bronx other okay, the brocuse me? How about the.

South Midwest? Other cities where you're not that? Okay? Okay, So we have onn't a special guest.

By the way, I don't want to spoilers. Five years the show ran five years one.

But it was not fun. Did not want to say it was brilliant fun, the characters great.

I just thought, all right, I'm happy to pursue this conversation because we have a wonder.

Guest you introduce.

You introduced that where sorry.

He wasn't prepared for those of you who have not yet met our guest. Doctor Kelly Richmond Hope is the doctor Barry Jay Epstein is it Epstein or Epstein Epstein in Dowed Professor of Forensic Accounting at the pol University of Chicago, Illinois and a nationally recognized expert in risk

Victims can be so easily duped.

And She also directed and produced the twenty seventeen award winning documentary All the Queen's Horses, which explores the largest municipal fraud in the United States.

Istory Welcome, Doctor Kelly Richmond Boop.

Hello, Hello, if.

You like murder, I mean podcasting now is all about murder mysteries. When we always joked at the end of the year one of us is going to kill the other, and then year two is going to be a murder mystery.

I'm massively popular, but well.

Did a documentary about that.

That documentary is so great. We're gonna tell that story in a minute. But what's cool about her too is she befriended a lot of white collar criminals and got to know and interview them to find out and dig deep about could you commits frock Andonic comment what is it? And identifies that the personality types, which is fascinating to me. And I've lined up story after story about money laundering and it's it's worrisome. But as far as Ozark, if we can start with that, am I right?

Ear?

Am I wrong?

He immediately draws attention to himself by going into strip club and throwing money around. You don't know who the neighborhood is, who's talking to who. You haven't really figured out who knows who, who's doing stuff there, so you open yourself up for disaster, which, by the way, happened.

You don't feel you're leading the witness with the way you've posed this question.

I think I need all the help.

I let me repose it with.

Going to the Ozarks and investing in the strip club bring immediate No, it doesn't.

I don't think I think he did the right thing.

Wow when you think yeah, I mean, when you think about the three steps of money laundering, placement, layering, and integration, you have to find a cash based business in a really remote area. Because you think about those types of businesses don't question the money. They really don't. I mean, if you go and spend ten grand a cash and a strip club, no one's going to question you. So no one was really going to question Marty when he went in and said, here's one hundred thousand dollars.

I want to revamp this whole place.

Because they're like, all right, all right, see from you.

I listened from him. I don't take it now. I say thank you for pointing that out. Server Boat.

Riverboat was a good escalation or stupid good escalation.

I mean it's, you know, casino driven. There's a lot of cash coming through, coming in, coming out. No one's gonna question when cash is being depositive a from a casino. So it made sense to me, all right, and you love to see it. I mean it's risky, it's riddled with risk. I mean, that's what's interesting about money laundering is I think, of all the schemes, that's the hardest one to do because it's it's just stressful.

I mean, just think about it.

You gotta buy a business, you gotta inflate invoices. You got to say, Okay, we know this renovation might cost twenty thousand dollars, we're going to inflate it to fifty five or sixty thousand dollars so we can layer some additional unclean money on.

Top of it.

I mean, it's stressful.

So it's no surprise when a money laundering scheme gets caught because it's complex to keep it going.

So let me ask, because I got a couple of headlines here, it's amazing former Goldman Sachs investment bankers sentence to two point seven billion bribery and money laundering scheme. Banks you're a slide on report of ramp and money laundering crypto platform. It's a lot of charging money laundering. Now Global banks US cracked down. I mean, it's olikar. Is every major bank in global bank involved?

In mind?

It seems like every article implies banks can be bought. There's so much money that somebody within a banking system is bribable.

Can banks be bought?

You know, I think banks have a lot of protocols that are set that are put in place so they can't be bought. But you know, with any rule, you can get around it. I'm not going to say on a podcast that banks can be bought because somebody.

I agree to that rise three times a few And by the way, we're still looking for sponsorships, so let's not get to yes.

Wow. But I think what Peter's saying is that there seems to be ramping frauds.

Forget that at the banking level, but you know, sort of on every level, there seems to be ramping fraud.

Is there a reason? Why?

Is it one of those things where there's actually more of it now than there was a couple generations back, or are we just hearing about it more?

And is it so easy to do that everybody's doing it?

So I think it's a couple of things that you just said.

I think we're hearing about it more, but I think you're finding more people willing to try it out. So think about all the schemes and scams we saw during the pandemic and so when the PPP loans were announced, there were bankers and lawyers and doctors and chiropractors like willing to lie about their business to get more money. So the controls relaxed because the government wanted to help people put more money in the pockets of these business owners.

So I think.

The schemes are pretty much the same.

What I've noticed is the profile of those willing to engage in the schemes is a little bit different. So gone, in my opinion, Gone are the days of just these massive organized crime units that are taking everybody for their money. Now you have people like you or me that might try it. We might try We might get away with it a couple times and don't get caught. But we might get caught. We might not go to jail. We may people are willing to roll the dice to see

And I know this may not be a question that you can answer, but is that is that because there's more opportunity or more desperation or have.

Are we culturally just more willing to lie and defraud? So this is the thing.

I think that what has changed a lot about how what I think about my kids versus how I grew up. Wasn't exposed to the riches of celebrities, and we didn't see inside their homes, we didn't see inside their vacations.

We didn't see people just showcasing this lavish lifestyle.

You didn't know.

I mean, you knew somebody might be on TV. You knew somebody might be the only the only time you saw it was what was the show lifestyle?

Yes?

Right, yeah, I mean that was it.

And so even that was like wow, but you didn't see it the way you see it now on social media. So I think that this idea of I want to have that too, How can I get it? I'm going to try it out to see maybe.

So the enticement has increased, basically enticement.

And think about it, the enticement has increased, Like now if I just pick up my phone to go to Instagram, I can look and see what Rihanna did, maybe what she ate where she's traveling, Like I could live her life through Instagram, and that might make me feel a certain way where I might be willing to say, you know what, maybe just maybe I can and push this invoice through and maybe I won't get caught.

So I think more people are willing to try.

Check fraud is going through the roof now. And I found out in one of the mailboxes near the bank they'd put sticky stuff so that the letter doesn't go all the way down and people come fish out your check. Wash it what they call where they actually take your name off put a different name on a different amount.

And that happened to me. It's easy, it's and it's about mailbox fishing.

I mean, this is like going back to like the fifties taking envelopes on a mailbox automatic.

Think about when you see that flag up that means there's something in there. Let me just peek and see what is. And another thing, you think you could probably go to YouTube right now and we can figure out all the steps on how to wash a check. It's so easy, and so people are willing to say, hey, let me try, let me see if I can get this through.

That's crazy.

I had got thought of that that a lot of the how tos of this are out there. So that's what to that extent to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong. The proliferation of fraud to me, has a direct correlation of our ethics, and I'm just wondering if there isn't if that isn't an issue.

Oh yeah, and we talk about ethics fraud in the classroom in a new way, you know. So there are now more classes on fraud and forensic accounty than there ever were before because to your point, it's just rampant. I think so many people can rationalize bad decisions, and we have to talk about it more and more and more than just when you join an organization sign the code of conduct, but we have to understand what are ethical breaches, what do they look like, what do they

Back or would you keep it?

Oh?

I would send it back. It's not mine.

I believe I would send it back.

I'd like to believe. How dare you well? I mean, you had to admit that you.

Got it in large audiences, I probably have about six thousand responses at this point. Half of these corporate professionals, they could be CPAs, they could be internal auditors.

Half the people say I'd keep it and I'd sell it to a friend.

Half the people, probably less than half, would say they would send it back.

With the people that keep it, do they have a rationale for that?

Yeah, it was a company's mistake, not mine. I didn't ask for it, so I'm going to keep it. So

Makes it easy, It makes it easy to rationalize why you should do it.

Could you're doing?

You a favorite this point because it's I saw the documentary and if people don't know this story, because it is one of the mind blower o Wells of all time. Is the greed to Clunwell's story because of who she is, her background, and what she was able to do and the guts that she to do this to perpetrate this crime, it's amazing.

Yeah, So Rita Crunwell, So I did a documentary came out in twenty seventeen, still lives in the world today because it's so crazy. So Rita Crunwell was the city comptroller, the finance person in this small town called Dixon, Illinois. Dixon, Illinois has about sixteen thousand people, So we're talking about small town USA. And what she was able to do over a twenty year period was embezzle about fifty three point seven million dollars in plain sight.

So she.

Lived out in the open.

She owned over four hundred quarter horses and lived this lavish life style, really this double life. So by day she was this controller, a government employee, and by night she was this horsewoman, you know, in firs and going to horse competitions all around the country. She won about fifty two world championships in the quarterhorse division. Don't know if anybody has a quarter horse out there, but if

Like, huh, this looks odd.

I don't know what to do with this, so I'm just going to tell my mayor about that. She reported to the mayor Burke, and they launched an investigation to get their own little personal investigation, and then contacted the FBI, and the rest is history. Rita was sentenced to nineteen years and seven months in federal prison and during COVID she got released early. The end of the story of probably from Rita's perspective, it does well.

We should also mention Rita did not have a college education. She was like an assistant when she started.

She graduated from high school, started working for the city and a princess type program.

And you know, she didn't have a top MBA. She didn't work on Wall Street.

She just worked.

You know, she learned the system and knew the system so well.

So yeah, she was able to take money just so not only was she scamming the city, but how did she how did she account for it in her tax returns?

Did she have two sets of books?

Well, something that one of the reasons why I always say everybody needs to take an accounting class is something that we talk about, like the first day in accounting is the accounting equation assets equals liabilities plus stockode ex equity. The interesting thing to your question is because financial statements have to balance. She was taking money out, so she had to put fraudulent transactions in to make those financial

What management or the leaders of an organization are saying.

And so auditors get in trouble when fraud happens because everyone says, well, why did you sign off that these financial statements were okay? So how Rita was able to get away with it is still shocking because there were so many people that looked at the financial statements. So how she was able to execute the fraud was really simple. She just moved money from one account to the next.

That's it.

And because most people don't like talking about money, they don't care about accounting, when you find a person that is really good at managing the books, you sort of let them be, leave them alone, You don't ask a lot of questions. And so that's who Rita was, so it made it easy for her to steal the money.

The other thing though, that blows me away about this was the quarter horses, et cetera, her other life, but this town did not have that big an account. She took fifty three million dollars from a municipality that only made how much money on a monthly weekly.

About six to eight million dollars was the annual.

How do you see?

Yeah, you're right, so she sow some years were bigger takes than other years, so it wasn't like a consistent amount over this twenty year period.

But you're right.

I mean she pretty much took all the money they had, which is why I sometimes laugh and say she.

Was really.

Like, how do you take that amount of money and then still keep a town running and keep the lights on?

And she did so she was pretty good. I gotta give it to her.

You know, you gotta a plug talent. You gotta a plug talent.

She worked, her bonds, she worked.

She was one of the horses slack.

I read that, well you know what else too, and this just makes me think of something. It's also a weird time as far as celebrity. Anna di Verner or whatever her name is, who had the fake identity, she's not writing articles and has an art show serhos, what's her name? Elizabeth Wims is out and giving interviewers and like that. She was a Robinhood, one of your.

Robbin Hue to make we turned these people into a celebrity. But I think we are so fascinated that someone had the balls to do that that we're just like, really, like you really did that, Like you really thinking about inventing Anna in that Netflix series, Like you really went into a bank and faked a whole business, had a fake voice on the other side of the phone and the bank was calling and it was I mean, you had all that setup.

You really did that. I mean you just think, wow, like you're pretty bold.

So for the uninitiated, would you can you walk us very quickly through what you described as the three types of fraudulent personalities and also the most common method not okay, not the specifics of the weapons, but what kind of overall methodology they used to scam people with.

So with the.

Intentional perpetrators, that's the first category I start with. That's what true crime podcasts shows are made of. Ozark for example, they would be intentional perpetrators, so they know the inside of the system they intend to defraud. That's the whole point,

Ah, that's that's that's what they do.

But these other two categories, the reason why that I created those is because I wanted people to understand their own selves in this fraud cycle. And so if you could be anything, you might be an accidental perpetrator or a righteous perpetrator. Now, an accidental perpetrator is a people pleaser, team player. The boss asked them to do something and they don't push back, They never say no, and they don't ask any questions. You may know somebody like that

The last category is the right for one second, sure in that scenario, would I still be held accountable for that?

Or would I be a ficial You sure would. So there's that part of I didn't know. It is not an excuse, Okay, gotcha.

It's not a defense, especially if you are a doctor, a CPA, any person that has a fiduciary responsibility to know. To say I didn't know, it's not a good reason you should have known. You will go to jail, but maybe not as long as an intentional perpetrator. Okay, So you are held accountable. Absolutely, you're held accountable. The last category, the righteous perpetrator. Now, the righteous perpetrator follows the Robinhood syndrome. You know I'm going to steal from the rich to.

Provide for the poor.

You use your internal resources to help someone outside of your firm.

Now, I argue that.

Edward Snowden is a perfect example of a righteous perpetrator. And I say that because if you think about how he was portrayed in the media, half of the world I think thinks of him as a whistleblower, and half of the world thinks of him as a perpetrator. Now, he did break a law in doing what he shared, but he felt that he was doing it because the public needed to know. Now we talked about Elizabeth Holmes. Now I put Elizabeth Holmes at the beginning of her crime.

She lived by.

Now we know she crossed over into the intentional perpetrator category. But at the very beginning. At her core, she wanted to help. She wanted to help society. She went to revolutionize the medical field, which she could have done if only.

It worked right.

I couldn't be Could you have been an intentional purpose? I don't think so. I would hope not. I don't think so.

You know, I listen, nobody's perfect. I think my ethics are are fairly strong, and I I always think about, you know, if I found the bag of money in the middle of the sidewalk, do I take it to the police and go this was sitting in the middle of the sidewalk.

I would like to think that is exactly what I would do.

I'm convinced that if I found a bag of money on a sidewalk, I would do the right thing, and somehow it would end.

Up horrifictally horrible.

I just know that I.

Would be too paranoid. I would be too It's not because I'm a wonderful human being. I couldn't live the next day with the money under the bed because it would ruin the rest of my life. I could not enjoy anything because I'd been waiting for them to repel down the wad. Well, yeah, to playoff of that.

I think the only way that I could ever rationalize is the nobody will be hurt if I do this scenario. But I the reason I think I walk a straight or narrow a line is I can't think of a situation where nobody would be impacted if I. If I keep this money, somebody's impacted. If I do this thing, somebody's impacted. So I just can't imagine.

But you know what you might think.

You might think to yourself, well, this money's already lost, so the impact that the person had lost some money had already happened. They probably already worked through this, so it wouldn't hurt them. They've already been hurt, so me keeping it's not going to hurt them anymore.

So why shouldn't I.

Just keep it?

All right? So we got to ask you.

So you sat face to face with white collar criminal, You've interviewed them, and you've gotten deep, gone deep into that, and even with Thurnose you're kind of a little bit empathetic there.

How did you change?

Well?

I just couldn't understand how it started.

Okay, how have you changed after sitting with these people and hearing the stories? Because I read the book. It's one thing face to facing their families, having, you know, having them bring you muffins whatever, and knowing their personalities and that they're human.

What do you what's your big takeaway?

You know?

It was really the inspiration behind the book, and that was all perpetrators are not stealing for greed, and so I wanted people to understand. At Kayla Ravello, for example, she's a chapter in the book. She was trying to help her husband get a job, put him back on his feet. She was a successful, wealthy corporate attorney. She didn't steal for money, and so I wanted people to

I see my students.

My students are graduate students, so they work full time, so they're like real adults, and I saw them empathize. Depending on the category, Now, if it's an intentional perpetrator, they're just like, Okay, that person's just they knew they were taking, they knew they were on the take, and they're sort of don't care.

But it's those other two categories. I mean, I've had.

Students cry, I mean just tears flowing down their faces listening to these stories.

And it was those moments that made me.

Say, you know, I gotta figure out a way that people can see themselves in these situations and have a little bit more empathy, and perhaps that can make organizations set up different types of internal controls, set up different type of employee options when employees are experiencing personal stress, maybe something can help prevent these kinds of situations even presenting themselves in.

The first place. So I've changed a lot.

Definitely, do your fraud are like you can tell me fraudar Like you can meet a person and go, this guy's gonna get this person's capable.

You know, some some schemes are just obvious.

But you know.

It's tough because people are charismatic and you sort of are attracted to that type of energy, Like you know, great speakers seems super nice, seems really interested in you and what you have to say.

But they don't believe rules apply to them. You can, you can pick up on it, but it takes a while.

So I don't know my fraud fraud dot could be depending on the scheme, could be pretty pretty spot on.

Sometimes I don't always trust myself.

But you work with companies to help them diminish or spot fraud correct.

So what do you tell them to look for? What are they and does that relate to what the average person should be looking for?

You know, I use a lot of the scenarios, and I use those. I use those scenarios as kickoff points. And when you start using a storytelling or a scenario based approach, people start talking and people start talking about, well, the policy didn't say this, so isn't it okay to do these things? And so things come out. People learn more about what the procedure says on paper versus how the procedure is actually executed in an organization. So there was one gentleman that in the book we did a

All your reports on time.

Well, because Nathan knew another colleague's password, it allowed him to go in and create checks under his name, approved checks under the pass under the colleague's password, and he netted eight and a half million dollars with doing that.

So what's interesting about going in and doing these.

Types of workshops is people are able to pull out the flaws and their systems. I used to do these hackathons with company groups, and a hackathon hack your own system, so you know you have to first create this is a safe space. We're just brainstorming. If you were going to embezzle money from your company, how.

Would you do it? And you know, it takes a little bit for people to get warmed up. But then the schemes that they can come up with, oh my god, be part of that.

But what their schemes are showing are all the internal weaknesses with inside that company. So then they can take this paper when we've written everything down, and they can instill new controls to close up some of those open holes. So it's fun, it's interesting, but people are very creative.

We're gonna we're going to go, but before we do, I got to ask you.

Are you tempted to follow up on Curmo and find out contactor and do follow up on me?

I've tried to follow up with her. At some point she might come for me.

So wh're the horses?

Do you know where the horses end up? Is everything taken.

From her and she has no horses anymore?

But you did try and follow up. You did try.

For sure, I got it, you know before. Actually I can't let you go yet because I got it. This is I swear, this is a real thing. Just before we started the interview with you, I got a message on my phone. Let me see if I can read it. Yeah, from Juliet, Illinois. Juliet, Illinois, and I'm gonna read it, but I'm not going to play it.

I'm going to read it. Hi there.

This call is for valued customers of No need to remind that today is the last day to take advantage of our exclusive fifty perind of offer on your account. In order to avail this opportunity and save monthly bill, simply call us back at this number from eight to five.

Thank you. I don't have a sucker and I get these all the time.

I got halls at my home phone for months about the extended warranty on my car and that I get messages about how my Netflix account is going to be suspended or my Amazon and just click here to prevent it.

Now, I know, I know. I don't click on anything. I don't return anything.

I don't want you just to go in.

I want to know.

Really, what I want to know is how are people profiting from this? If I click, what would have happened?

Do you know?

Oh? Yeah, so if you clicked, there may be a way to access your computer maybe figure out a way to dial into your Maybe you've accessed your bank account.

Never click, never clicked?

Oh my god, there's you know you think about there's so much information about us online where someone could easily become you.

So who knows?

By you clicking and just knowing every website that you accessed over the past one throw, it could help build a profile.

So when I call the bank, I could easily be you.

I could have enough information to answer enough questions where I have, I can break through all those security questions that they ask, and boom, I can have access to your money.

So I don't want to live in this world. I don't what this does to me.

The net of this is it makes me not trust anybody or anything that's not good.

Right, How do we know what you know?

Until they've earned or you've earned they've earned your trust, you probably should.

And that's why Jason, the only person I trust. Does a guy in Nigeria's sending me two million dollars, that's the only guy that I trust.

Well, you know what, I happen to know that guy, and I should say he knows me as well.

Can you imagine if you're an honest guy in Nigeria and you're actually reaching out to somebody.

Well, thank you for coming on. The book is wonderful.

The movie that comes on thing. I know that that that that's part of your identity. But what an amazing story.

And I will also say if you if you would like to interact more with doctor Pope, it's Kelly Richmond Pope dot com and your your frog game. More games are up on that website as well.

You just go to that website games.

I am going there tonight, so google him. What do you have? Well, I've got to do it quick because Lauria's gonna kill me. Ponzi scheme? Where did that come from?

Hold a second, Laurie killing you makes us a murder right now?

Matter?

It doesn't matter that way anyway?

Is it not Carlo Ponzi? It's a different name, Charles Ponzi. Charles Ponzi.

Carlo Ponti was Sophia Lawrence husband where he targeted, targeted.

There's about not people that know who we're talking about.

When we say, oh, come on, everybody knows what's Saphilla render?

Yeah google it? She still oh here, we got still here we go? Yeah right, yeah, hit me? Okay, Charles pont Right.

So, Charles Ponza was in the early nineteen hundreds doing this of what we would later define as a punty scheme. In that time period, he made over fifteen million dollars, but nice he ended up in jail with only seventy five dollars to his name.

That's the end of it. Yeah, and the final one, con Man, where did that term come confidence? A confidence?

Man? You you take someone into your You supposedly take someone into your confidence, or you get into their confidence, and that's how you was at ear confidence of me.

It was not earal confidence, Jason, you're correct, but it was a specific guy. There was a guy in the eighteen forties named William Thompson, and he would walk around New York City and he would approach strangers on the street with the question, have you confidence in me to trust me with your watch until tomorrow? People who would give him the watch and those sorts of things said they had confidence that he would come back in twenty.

Four hours and return the watch to them.

He eventually was caught by somebody who recognized him on the street, one of his best victims.

And he too went to jail. How can that even be a crime.

He said, do you have confidence? They said, yes, I do. They gave him the watch. He went, you shouldn't have had confidence. That's not saying I didn't say give me your watch. I said, do you trust me?

Give me your watch?

Had less confidence?

Right, But I mean, I don't even see how that's going. That's like the thing about the you know this story, this famous story. Guy pulls up at a restaurant in la gives the valet his car keys, goes in as a lovely dinner, comes out, can't find the valet. Goes to the manager of the restaurant and goes, where's your valet?

They go, we don't have a valet.

Guyana Jack with a simo the guys. So it comes back to me about cons and frauds. And the truth is, you know, she was asking, am I am I? You know, a deliberate conomy, an accidental economy, all right, just but in my business there's conning all the time. I remember I remember going to an audition for a Broadway show called The Rink, which was peripherally about a roller skating rink, and they said to me in the first audition, do

The point you.

This, you're talking dating everybody I've ever met, and I'm not in the dating market, but did everybody on the dating market.

But that's I don't know if that's fraud or if that's.

Lit misrepresentation for a desired outcome. I mean, you defrauded me.

When we did the AI episode and you you made me believe that Schwarzenegger was on the phone with me.

I could hold you account ory, is that fraud?

No?

I said, you know what, that's cat. I'll tell you right now and then we'll end the interview. Here what and that's entertainment.

Now, really really now, really, if you.

Joined us, you thank you. If you're not, I'm not thanking because you're not hearing it.

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Thank you David Glutenheim, thank you Laurie for me, thank you, Peter Tilden. I'm pointing at you the audience, and I'm saying Peter Tilden, but I really only.

Value you and David.

If Laurie kills you, we will do a memorial episode here.

Yes, and it will Skyrock that really touches.

Oh yeah, and one more thing.

As of August twenty twenty three, Sophia Lorenz is alive and well

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