Microdosing Psychedelics, Ayahuasca Resorts + Placebo City

Hello.

I'm producer David Guggenheim, and this may be one of the more controversial episodes of Really No Really. Millions of people are microdosing, taking small amounts of psychedelic mushrooms, LSD and other hallucinogenic substances, all without any supervision by a physician. Many claim it reduces anxiety and depression, and enhances mood and boosts creativity and productivity. But are these claims purely anecdotal or is there robust scientific evidence to support them.

Mom now really, so Jay, really really No one has stopped us.

Yet, And this one is about microdosing and the really not really here is my grandparents are doing it, my cousin's doing everybody's doing it. What's the science?

It's like, Now, this is a thing where I agree with you you say my mother's doing I know anecdotally a dozen people that are doing this and that we're doing it to speak to conditions and problems they were having, and across the board, with one exception, they have all reported having a positive refect.

That's the deal. It's all. It's a lot of anecdotal and I know, I have a feeling on this episode.

When I did it, I you know, I was singing Sweet Sue under a stairwell.

But other than that, I felt nothing.

He got he took one tab of acid. I had to watch the entire show of hair with him naked in his bedroom, went from beginning to end. You chose to do and odd that you would do?

He chose to So how dare you? How dare you?

So?

I think we'll get pushedback because a lot of people assume, oh, oh, you're gonna throw you know, a wet blanket on this, But it works. Every works. It's anecdotal. So I figured, let's find out somebody who's actually doing the research. There's not a lot of places doing the research. Research absolutely, and again I'm not for it. I'm not against it. I don't have any kind of bias. It's just a really really is. Everybody's acting like it's a done deal.

John's Johns Hopkins where I think you said, John Hopkins, and everybody the.

Way is there a number Johns? It? When it's Johns Hopkins. Does that mean there were a couple of John's.

There was one person whose last name was John Johns. And some people get very very.

Bent out of shape about this. Jason, you're you're correct, and Peter, you're not sorry.

You know what we got. J You're correct. Doctor, We gotta go somebody the door. So we read another expert working in England, Jason, So doctor Barrett. It's the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. So I'm guessing that in your deal life, when people know what you do, are they skeptical? Is it like, well, why wait, it works already. I'm sure you're family members to tell you anecdotally, your cousin Leonard is so much better. What do you mean you're telling me it doesn't work?

So how is that? In fact?

What is the nature of what you're studying? And we don't want to, you know, put the card before the horse.

What are you learning? What is their goal of the study?

We have multiple studies underway at the Center for psychodol Conconscious Research.

And I've been doing this now for about ten years.

And I have to say that when I started doing this ten years ago, I told my mother what I was doing and She said, wait a minute, isn't that like acid? Does that stuff make you jump out of windows? And I said, well, my mom, it's.

Not like that.

But you know, we don't have windows in our session rooms. But the point, but.

It's that these drugs are such powerful modulators of consciousness. When they were first studied in the fifties and sixties, there were thousands of studies going on in the United States and around the world, some that showed some interesting results for LSD to treat depression, to treat various forms of substance, used to sort of to treat chronic pain, or cancer related pain, all sorts of things. And with the Controlled Substances Act, all of this came to a

So what is a macrodose By the way you said it again.

Macrodose is a large dose. It's a psychoactive dose.

It's a those that makes you, you know for better words, feel like you're tripping. And the doses that we're finding to be therapeutic are doses.

They're very strong, very strong trips, if you will.

But all of the data that's been published to date, except for the most recent study that was just published from a multi center trial about over two hundred people were treated and they found that, wow, there's evidence for an enduring effect of a single high dose of psilocybin. But the question now is, well, how much can we learn about the safety parameters here? We have to take most of the studies, which are small pilot or proof of concept studies, and expand them to two more rigorous

Right, Yeah, as of today, if you had to give a verdict on microro saying, my understanding is this, you can't even test it on depressed people yet, because getting somebody off their meds, testing it, then putting them back on their mentioned hoping the receptors will will uptake the mens the same way. That's a big liability. You got to test the first on.

Healthy people, right, It is a liability. But that's what we're doing right now in our studies of depression. And there are plenty of people in the world who are taking medication and it's not working or it's not working as well as it should. And there are a lot of people in the world for whom they tried multiple medications, they may have even tried like electric convulsive therapy ECT. When you get to that point, it usually works, but it's a pretty big hammer and it has a lot

So there are people out there to study.

But yes, with all of these things, the first thing to do is study them in healthy people first to make sure you understand.

The risks and how far a long is that was microdosing.

There are no clinical trials available in therapeutications. There are a small number of clinical trials that have been conducted

Not like a full on trip.

It's not an overwhelming experience, and just there you can get caught up in the weeds of well, which one's right, which one is going to work, which one's going to work for what indication or what stillness, And we don't know.

But the line share of studies.

That have been conducted and healthy people have not been conducted on a long term course of microdosing. They've been conducted on a single micro dose and there's so you can see one of the problems here is we haven't really studied microdosing yet the way people.

Are microdosing out in the world.

But out of the studies that have been conducted in a laboratory setting, there's pretty much nothing to say there are no effects. There was one study that was published in older healthy adults that had really clever marketing. They said, listen, hey, wow, we've administered a microdose to all of these people and we saw no signal for risks.

So that's great.

But the problem is they didn't see a signal for anything at all. So how can you have a risk for it for some.

Not to be pedestrian.

Okay, but if you're in the job of doing a clinical study and you realize on a healthy person, one experience wields no data whatsoever other than ineffectual. Why don't you immediately go well, then let's do a more ongoing study. Is there are you being prevented from that? Is the funding not there for that? Why not do a more profound study.

It's the next step.

I think a lot of people thought this is a reasonable first step. And since that yielded nothing, let's go further. And I know there are individuals and labs who are planning these more comprehensive studies.

We just haven't gotten there yet. We're still really early.

For God's pressure on him.

He's got all these fancy titles.

He works Johns Hopkins and the living is up.

He's not sitting on his hands. He's doing the studies. The most important thing here is the placebo effect is what people are talking about right now, because there has been no research that it works. The other thing I'm curious about because the decent said funding so pharmaceutical companies. I know that Silicon Valley's jumping through hoops to fund this stuff to be the next company to be the psilocybin masters. But they like stuff it's long term that

Take out the name of any photo.

The farmer company, the farmer company, the farmers.

In the final project. Don't thank you.

I said it once. Jason now said it eleven times.

I didn't say seven times.

The doctor said, you are such a problem, why do we have you on? So so, if they are looking for long term stuff, I had a doctor on once, you said if polio happened today, they wouldn't find a cure. They would do like design or iron lungs and the hook up to your iPad. Is that true that the pharmaceutical companies are not as interested because it may be one dose or two dose and you're better.

I could imagine that's part of their calculus. Another problem is that you can't patent psilocybin. It's a naturally occurring compound.

Right.

There are a lot of companies that are now trying to come up with analogues of known psychedelic drugs, so new chemicals that are closely related slightly different, and then you'll pull out the gimmicks so well, this one is a little faster acting, or this one does as much or whatever.

Maximum strengths.

Telling Jerry strength.

There's a great Jerry Seinfeld with tea, and where he goes, what's the you know, we're crazy about strength.

First three we had strength, it was not good enough.

Then we needed extra strength, and then I think his routine goes and then we needed maximum strength, and they go, well.

What's that?

They go, We'll figure out what will kill me and back it off just a.

Little bit because here here's the other part of this. So my cousin Liner says, I'm doing this. I go, how did you figure how many times a week to do it? Was that ran? How do you know what you're buying, who you're buying it from, how are they how are they vetting it? And these ayahuasca ceremonies, which, by the way, producer law is going to come in no matter what you say or how dangerous it does, it is not going to cut it. She'll do it.

Well, that's that's exactly. That's that's one of the many problems here.

And there are lots of analogues of psychedelic drugs, like things that are sold as LSD but they aren't LSD l U the psilocybin. For the right person who doesn't have other contraindications, it's it's rather physiologically safe. But some of these other compounds that are synthesized to mimic the drugs are not safe at all, and they have led

You hear.

But I may also ask, if I may protect doctor Barrett, why are you asking him? You're asking him basically, where would I get this stuff on the street and how do I know it's pure? Are you trying to ask him a question like that? He's getting it from reliable, sanctioned source.

So they're making treating him like he's going to an alley with it's like showing me the money, show me the I mean, you know, if I can get the infro, why not get there? But is it like Santa's Labs they're cooking up batches right now on your lab.

Or what there are there are pharmaceutical companies who are producing uh, you know, top quality. What the FP says is it meets GMP standards Good Manufacturing Practice of standards, so they're a high standard parmaceutical grade drugs. And and there are companies who are producing psilocybin for research use at these standards. But yeah, one of the risks for microdosing is that you don't know exactly what you're getting.

Know what you're getting in any particular day.

And so people blinded themselves and they went through a course of uh, you know, one course of treatment, and then they took a break and took another course of treatment, and then afterwards broke the blind and they figured out which was the.

Active and which was not.

And it turns out people had a better response to their placebo condition than they did to their active drug.

Condition, which is why I've said you and I we're going to open if you want.

They only makes placebo.

Yeah, because ripped all the function right heart disease, and yeah, take the placebo. It's much cheaper than the drug you're taking. Forget it.

Placebo city Absolutely there.

There was a drug that was prescribed many decades ago called Obacalp, and doctors would actually prescribe to the placebo spelled backwards.

Doctors would actually describe.

Oba coal for certain things that they thought were psychosomatic or some other kind of was a sugar pill.

Yeah, I think my mother was on that for thirty two years.

Oh but obrake good for her?

Who knew that? Did you know that?

Law?

Or Laurie? Go through an obercal clinic and take that good?

You got to come up with maximum strength Obercal's.

We're in doctor. I don't know what they're paying you there, but we can pony up some money down. Can you imagine onad the head of Obercal collo testing. Oh my god, wow, obercalc.

Calp colp, don't miss me. Don't don't send people to the wrong product.

If you can't afford if you can't afford the medicine, and you can't afford the generic, we've got the placebo and it works better than both.

Oh my god, I'm sure I can answer this question myself. Has anyone in the microdesting studies ever had a bad reaction to it that even I'm aware of No. Okay, so it doesn't it doesn't do any intrinsic harm at least in this in these studies.

Well maybe so here's here's here's Another dimension of this to consider is that in the studies that have been conducted in the laboratory, like I said, you know, they've administered one or there was one study that was very recently administered like up to a week or two of microdoses. But that still doesn't that still doesn't fit the prescription that the people are using out in the world. But there is a theoretical risk here. There are dozens and dozens of receptors.

All over your body and your brain and your spinal cordo one.

Hundreds or more receptors, and one of the receptors that psilocybin specifically binds to and is active at is called the serotonin to B receptor.

The serotonin receptors are not only in your brain.

There are actually a lot of them are expressed in your cardiovascular system. And there are a number of drugs that have been pulled from the market for other reasons in other circumstances that bound to this and activated this two B receptor on heart muscles, and caused cardiac problems for it there before. So it's possible that taking a microdose of a dry and it's not been proven.

It's only a theoretical risk.

But again enough studies haven't been conducted that if you're taking a microdose of a psychedelic over time, then it may put you at.

Risk for some of these cardiac problems.

Is there also not to be receptor?

Not to be?

I know somebody was going to take it.

Somebody was going to take it, and it's the guy who has never seen a Shakespeare play decided to go for that or not.

So I'm curious, Jason, and we're talking about this, and people go into a profession a lot of times influenced by their parents. Did your parents follow a fish around and go to eighty two concerts or something? Is this how you got into the No?

No, In fact, that's a very interesting question.

No.

No, My father was a contractor and my mother is an artist. And I got into all of this almost by accident.

I tell people, I went to Temple University in Philadelphia for undergrad and I was a music education major, and.

That's where I went Temple. I first couldn't get in anywhere else you went because you had good grades.

Okay, temple owls are everywhere, But basically, you know, I had a dark night of the soul with music teaching, and I ended.

Up getting really into psychology.

I ended up working at a schizophrenic research lab at U Penn and found.

A love for the brain.

And I learned that, you know, I was playing music to explore emotions and understand the motions of myself and help communicate myself.

That's why I loved music and wanted to teach it.

And I found a grad school program in psychology where I could study the effects of music on emotions and memory. So I brought it full circle and studied the neuroscience of music, emotions and music and memories. And I've always been fascinated by altered states of consciousness and playing music can be an altered state of consciousness. And a colleague of mine, Katherine MacLean, was a couple of years ahead of me in grad school. She was studying the effects

And music can be a powerful tool to study the mind.

But psychedelic drugs are even in order of magnitude, more powerful of a tool to study the mind and brain.

So that's basically how I got into this.

I have two observations. You might want to do ear muffs for a second.

You might put your fingers in your if you can put your okay on.

He prefaced by saying, not going to tell her. There's a long story, and I think I did the sixt minutes. It was a long story. The second observation I have is that he was a musician. I'm hearing I was blitzed out of my mind and I thought, this is this is not only sustain because as a musician, I can't afford this.

If you look up pictures, he was a mummer. He was in the mummers. Should see that thing with the feathers. And one thing was a mummer looking. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be embarrassed.

You're an ex mummer.

Say you're a proud mummer.

I thought, that's it. You're a mummer for life.

What's the mummer? Always a mummer? Pretty much? Yeah, I just haven't been on Broad Street in a long time.

Well, you know what my vision as a kid is watching mummers fully outfitted, peeing on walls down downtown because there's no bathing to go to, right right? You know that As a Philadelphia guy.

I'm not confirming denying that.

And by the way, before we go, do you ever seen that makes you go really matter? You know?

The first, really no, really was when we give people these macrodoses, it's psilocyb, and in our laboratory or in a clinical setting, this is really like a one shot deal for some people. Our recent study we published a couple of years ago, showed that after two doses of psilocybin, over fifty percent of people who were in the study were in remission from.

Depression for at least a year.

Act Really, that's pretty yeah, And that's why the people that I do know who are using it, it's all for to as a as a counter depressive.

And you know what's amazing, I'm looking I pulled this in twenty twenty, the depression rates jumped from eight point five percent before the pandemic to one and three adults almost twenty some point eight, almost one third. That's how depressed, how severe depression is in today's and also diagnosing depressions different and acknowledging depressions is different, but still nonetheless, before we go, Laurie wants to do ayahuasca, she really wants to do me.

Let me take this moment to give a selfless disclaimer here. Nobody should be going off and doing this on your thank you. These are incredibly powerful drugs that have an incredibly powerful effect.

On the mind.

And unless you're getting the proper support and proper care, and unless you've had the proper screening to enter into the high dose psychedelic experiences, you could be putting yourself at great risk.

You know, these drugs can be incredibly safe under the right circumstances.

One of the problems with doing ayahuasca out of an ayahuascar retreat is you have no idea who's giving it to you. You don't know where they got their vines or their urbs or whatever.

And you have no idea how qualified they.

Are to provide you psychological care, psychiatric care, or medical care.

Do you have reason to hope that there is something here?

Do you feel like you might be on a path to something that is therapeutic down the road.

Oh?

Absolutely, And that's what everybody's really most excited about. Yeah, that's why there are so many investors in startup companies popping up for the macro dose psychedelic therapies. And there are a lot of hurdles to surmount, but we do have a lot of hope that we've hit on something that could really end up helping an awful lot of people.

And let me tell you something. We're doing the research here. Sixties, everybody was getting stoned. Everybody was doing psychedelics. Sixties. Whenever you were your stone, they came up with pop rocks at your sketch, child car seats, soft contact lenses, microwave offfin rice, a ronny came up from stumping, mister clean, pampers, head and shoulders, apple jacks, buffalo wings, etcetera. Pizza rolls, pop tarts.

They came up with apple jacks.

Was dropping massive dose.

I'm not saying I'm just a conflating mass or era of psych era with the people who created these product that you cannot say that anybody who stood behind those things saying in that dropping as.

The error was was an acid era.

You came from that era.

You know what else they did? Didn't have one before they came up with nine one sixties. They got yell, hell, my husband has dying. That's what they had and then you died, right.

And by the way, that we've probably got a quicker response.

Than thank you, lovely lovely having you here. Thank you, And also check out doctor Pretrict Barrett. Go to YouTube. You do stuff on music and the effect of music. That's really and you can see the love you have for music and for your research. It's pretty impressive. So which is why we wanted you on. So thank you, you're you're you're a good dude, and thanks you for the research and thanks for clearing us up a bit.

Thanks again for your interest in covering kind of understanding.

Make us the first call, will you please when you when you get to the right dose there, we're a mess. Mess, we are a mess. We need to make us the group.

By the way, you know what hardbody's going on right now.

I mean I'm flying to Baltimore.

You know what really really must be There must be studies where they do the blind studies and you either get the placibro where a guy's been in like fourteen studies and he always gets a frigging I'm always looks like j like, really I can't I can'cer, I can't place I got, says the guy.

Next time you're in the wrong line, if you want the real thing, because I'm always.

Thank you, I can't please really really, oh man, you earn your adjustment that you take care of yourself.

First.

Laurie's here, So producer Laurie.

So, were you convinced at all they're still going to go?

Still do it?

I think that the resort I was going to go to.

In Costa Rica teams coming down the walls.

Now, I think they they have they're controlling it. I think they're it's safe.

Can I tell you it's not in this country. It's not if you die. If you die, you know what they do to you. They row you down a hill because nobody brought what laws bide that they have to really.

Ask you that what do you are you doing it for and you don't have to share the reason, but is it.

A specific reason?

I just I'd like to have that.

Experience very specif I am an artist and I feel that creatively I'm kind of blocked right now, and I think maybe doing that would kind of unblock me.

And if it doesn't, well, then how about a lot of other stuff that can unblock you.

I just feel I just realized.

Right so you feel it will unblock you.

Yeah, I'm a good artist, but I feel I need to get to the next level.

And I feel like.

There's hoping that some hallucinogenic vision will stay with you and you find your breath, you'll see a color you've never seen or a pattern you've never realized.

After of course, four days of throwing up, I just feel like I'm stiff, and I feel that if I do that it will unlock be more fluid.

And because we love you, we support you in that. Could you just have a replacement lined please, someone who's not blocked.

By the way, where is this resort in Coasta? I'm Bob your I think his name is Bob to God? Would you have you had Peter? Have you ever done a hallucinogen.

I did a listener gin in the sixties and late sixties, early seventies. Yeah, didn't I really have a weird system. I can drink a lot, it doesn't hit me. I can smoke a lot. It didn't do much for me. I was pissed off because everybod's going on.

You wanted to have the experience.

Yeah, yeah, I knew Timothy Larry, for God's sake, So what do you what are you doing for?

You know?

I don't have clinical depression, but everybody gets depressed. What do you do when you're depressed? You don't run off in vomit in Costa Rica?

Do you?

Why?

What I try is I bring other people down at my level and we can hang. You know that. That's what I do. You go to other people, right, Lark I get. I call her at night and I get and I go. Now we're on the hare there, same level. What do I do with you? Same thing? Yeah, you're much happier than I am.

My parents didn't sanction depression. You were not allowed my parents, So I'm sure when I know my parents went through horrible times and horrible things, and they didn't really sanction depression. My Dad was a hey, snap out of it. And speaking of depression, we had Google tim.

On what I like today?

David, what is that thing I have? Just saying? They say, well, you have depressure. We all have the pressure. Who's not depressed?

I'm not depressed?

Well, then what do you go to an ayahuasca thing for?

For creativity? At stuff?

Or just draw?

Pay something? Get somebody, get her a brush, yeah, some paints. She's really gonna look at her.

What she has to do is spin around until she throws up. You don't have to go anywhere to spin around.

Until you throw up and then go pay by the way. By the way, we'll pretend you were there. We'll hit you over the head with the bottle, take all your money, make you throw up, and then say be creative. That's what would have happened there without minus the plane flight. Okay, you give us a cash for the plane flight. So, David, what do you think I wanted to let everybody know where i AWA is legal? Oh, here we go, and where's it legal?

Brazil, Costa Rica, Mexico, Peru, and drum roll, please l the United States everywhere in the United States for religious purposes.

Lauri lauriait what and what religion would.

You speak of Florida.

I did some research and I called the Soul Quest Ayahuasca Church of Mother Earth, which is located in Orlando.

Happiest I heard that plenty of parking talking and they serve approach. You're in. You don't have to go anywhere.

Can you imagine the cab.

So and what about the liability? So what happens if something? They have insurance?

Well, I did do a lot of research into several different resorts and destinations that do the ayahuasca, and many of them suggest getting travelers insurance.

You know, like mister Milman, I would like travel church. Iahwas ceremony.

Fortunately, I actually called a mature traveler insurance provider instead two years of experience and working from several mature providers.

Would it be covered? When she stopped laughing, she's.

Oh my gosh, Well how about that, man, Well maybe I'll call another.

No not covered.

Now.

Now, listen, if you're out there and you have a really no, really keep it with yourself.

We got enough trouble with ours. Yes, at the end of this thing, when we take a bye, now, there'll be a thing and a we'll tell your work.

Really it makes you go, oh my god, really no, really, it's really.

No, really, oh my god. Really it's a different podcast. You said, what the huh?

Really we couldn't.

Get No, okay, couldn't get it. And Jason, what will we do for if we use it? What will we do?

What will we use?

We'll use it, will use.

What they get? I have no idea.

No, you know what, we'll get them.

Why can't people just be generous?

Why can't they just me maybe you know, you know, giving give it to us for nothing? Why am I begging?

Why am I?

No?

We'll send your.

Mum all right, We'll send them a mug and we're just playing the postage on then that's coming out of your side, Peter, this.

Has been a delight. I'm going to go take a tab of something.

I may just drink a tab.

Maybe maybe I can find a tab.

I want to get. We'll see you next time, maybe I don't know, google home and see you later. Laurie. Good luck with the with the with the art and getting on. Get awake from the guys in the other room who never get mentioned. You're not mentioning we don't have no time now?

Really, No Really is available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

YE