Bathrooms, Privacy and Seinfeld

It's Peter's a good friend. You're a good friend, Pete. You're a very good friend. By the way. I love how you three seconds into the podcast, or for any diminished me already, or you're covering your bet because other friends are not calling. I have other friends and I don't want them to feel slighted. So you're you're you're one of my top five good friends. I'm just I'm just at such. Let me tell you how Peter and I met. Peter was was a a talk radio guy here in Los Angeles, and uh, I was a guest

on the show. I was probably I think it was probably the second year of Seinfeld and we had such a good time on the air that by the time we ended the program, Peter said, Hey, do you wanna you wanna go grab breakfast? And I went, you know what I kind of do, and you what happened. I became one of his top five friends. That's right. During that breakfast you went from from really zero, you moved

right up. It was amazing. By the way, gives you some indication how quickly case Lit jettison a friend from the top finals, or or some indication that I only had three on the list. All right, so let's get serious. So the premise of our show, Ladies and Gentlemen, uh, we talked about on this show the things that annoying us, that make us crazy or that or that baffle us, things that we hear it. And what do we say, Peter, We say, really, really, that can't be because I think

it's right. Things we don't understand, things that annoy Uce and I remembered so clearly the other day because I was in I was at the airport getting ready, and I'm in the I'm in the restroom. I'm in the public restroom, and I remember as I go in, I'm looking at this thing and I'm giggling because I remember Jerry Seinfeld, my old my old buddy, my old boss, does a routine about why is it in these restrooms that the door on the stall doesn't go all the

way down to the floor? What is that all about? And he talks to he I don't remember his bit exactly, but it's it's why why do we need the little viewing window at the bottom to see your sad, pathetic pants and your forlorn shoes? And you know, he just does this whole thing, and I'm in there and I'm going, you know, he's absolutely right. He's absolutely right, because I'm sitting in there and I can see people. I can see through the cracks of the doors. I see under

the window. I see people stop there staring in. People are knocking. Why are they? Why are they knocking if there's a window at the bottom, why are they? Like that's what it's for? Why is it? Why? Where is my privacy? Why can't I have in a public restaurant? Why can't I have a little bit of privacy? Why can't this be my area? Peter? Why have I know? Privacy? Privacy may just be an illusion because in the bathroom they pipe in the little music, they put a door.

That's two thirds of the door is up, one third's missing. You got cracks in the side. I mean when you're sitting on the toilet and you can count people to see people walking by, that's not a whole lot of privacy. And then you start realizing in our houses all of the interconnected crap that we buy, the smart devices, we point cameras at ourselves, we put listening devices in room ourselves. We're looking at our neighbor's camera, which is surveilling, and

we seem to be okay with that. As we buy more products, we're going to find all about the the illusion of privacy in our home and on the internet. But first we have to start with the bathroom to sign fell leading of why oh why does the bathroom door not go to the floor. So joining us now is they were acted an award winning bathroom designer and the president say what now, the President? There is an award? Is an award? I can't get an Emmy, and this

guy's picking up awards for tiling. Good. So, Jason, I'm excited. I can tell. I can tell you're excited. You're all a tingle. I can feel. It is such an ass um Chad Coufman's with listening, owner of the restroom company. What an intro? Chad signs, coming on, I'm happy to be here. Wait wait, wait, before before he asks this question, I just gotta ask. I gotta ask in fifty words or less. You're a young man. Your whole life is of you. How the hell did you go down this

road that you're you're you're building toilets? What? What? What? What happened? Fifty words or less? Give it the abridged version. All right, my father this was my father's idea. So I was born in Reenwich, Connecticut, and my dad was a custom homebuilder, and then he got this crazy idea that he wanted to build restrooms for public parks. Keep going, okay, how many We're almost there? Short. My life is going down the toilet and here I am. So that's that, son,

We've built an empire. Here I need you. Did you build it? I inherited it from my dad, sister and my sister and I run it. How great would that be if your parents had something you can inherit it was my parents had left me anything, it would have been great. Anything. Uh you know what I heard it? Chad and Security and anxiety and heart disease. That's where my parents left me and probably prostrates stuck too. So thanks thanks to Chad. Here's some statistics that concern you.

Of office workers excited having to use the bathroom as a prime reason they're stressed about returning to the office because of the pandemic. Don't say they're uncomfortable going number two and a stranger in non environment, and three and ten are little pishy and sixties six of American workers admit to holding it in to avoid using their workplace restroom. You're not doing a good enough job, obviously. Let me

tell you I hold it in at a friend's house. Peter, you would, Peter, you've been coming to my house for thirty years. I don't think you've ever gone number two in my house. Have You don't break my confidence? What I do is I eat cheese and rice before it comes. Someone bound up and just make sure I try and time it all right? Do we want to get the answer? Do we want? Here's the really? Not really? Here's the reason,

thank god, why we called Chad. This is the big answer, the reason the bathroom stole door does not go all the way down to the floor is hit it, Chad. So they could clean it well, they can clean clean water floor because no one likes well. Certain certain areas they take a hose and they hose it down, and then certain areas they mop right, and then you can't mop underneath because there's something that goes to the floor. Right. So this is not for our protection our privacy. This

is so the janet. This is so the guy can come in with a bucket of water, soapy water and just flash it across the floor, goes down the drain and it saves you time. And boy, what a cleaning technique that is. And they made better airflow, right, there's better airflow. We don't want. We don't want air flow. Let me tell you something, Mr award winner, Hey, Mr award winner. If I'm install one, I don't need airflow from stall three. But Jason, the key to pollution is delution,

my friend, remember my god, Hey, Mr award winner. They have a thing called event. The technical term is fart fan part fans. Sure there we go alright, speaking that, Peter, let me say we got the answer. Let's so it's they don't go to the floor. So sometime with them up, you do what can save three minutes cleaning the bathroom, and to that we say the name of the show. Really no, really, yeah, listen, nobody wants that job. That man should have. That man should have a pension, That

man should have healthcare. That man or woman that doesn't have to be that person should have benefits like like presidents don't have. I think without that person we would all be very very unhappy. But really, is it that big a deal to open the door and slash a little more with the thing study that was done this this one is really worrisome because with COVID you didn't want to touch stuff, and a lot of bathrooms have handblowers.

What I didn't allignes is every time a little list toilet is flushed, it aerosolizes a fine mist of microbes. This vehicle cloud can disperse over Stoud Harvard, and when someone flushes, it spreads through the air, and when it comes in contact with a hand dryer, the colony multiplies. So basically, you're taking your average small fecal colony and you're saying, let's explode this sucker. Why are we using heated dryers if we know this hand dryers, if we

know that, we're spreading that that way? Is this a question for me? I comment, Wow, this is a this is going to be deep. It was. It's literally because of vandalism. If you're in a in a restaurant, you can have paper towels, right because the kids that are thinking of any possible way to vandalize this public restroom, why would you want to? I don't know, got it. They'll light They'll take their lighter and they'll just set it on fire. So what's the alternative? A hand dryer?

Really some of the new technology like Dyson. I use a Dyson hand dryer. It actually where it sucks in the bathroom air has heap of filters. Okay, all right, I just wanted to know that from me out, I'm trying to help the public health. One last question, one last question for you, because I know that you probably are joking aside, do a lot of metrics and analysis to build your things. What is it about people trashing

Westerns like you said, lighting on fire? I worked at a radio station this with people I know, and on on Monday morning when you come in, it looks like they gave a series of gibbons acid micro dose and let them loosen the bathrooms. There's stuff everywhere, toilets or stuff. Things are carved, People have card messages into the toilet lid. I mean, what's going on in there that people have to relieve their anxiety by by ruining a restroom. They know they've got to come back in there. By the way,

you're gonna use it again. I don't know. It's maybe like the analogy of a rental car, right, it's it's not my car, it's not my bathroom. I don't, I don't, I don't, but I don't care about what it looks like after I leave that facility. Yeah. By the way, can I just say I've been silent for a while because I threw up in my mouth a little on fecal cloud. That was Hey, Chad, seriously, thank you so much for being here. You are such a good sport.

You allot us play with you. You took it in the shorts for your whole industry, and congratulations on your reward. And by the way, people should know you are quite the philanthropist. You offered the city of San Francisco a free public toilet, which is uh, they we're gonna put up a public restroom for one point seven million dollars. So you got it for free. You saved them one

point seven million dollars. The taxpayers of San Francisco should all be saying, my god, let's say thank you, Chad Kaufman, Jason, thank you for making me laugh for so many years. Really, no, man, it was like one of my favorite shows. Really it was. It was it was our pleasure second second about me anything, anything. It was a pleasure to second. Take care the other reasons. The bathroom stall doesn't go to the floor. It's more

affordable to scourge his bad behavior. It can't be used as an escape root, it keeps lines moving, and as seen in the Stall episode twelve, season five, as Seinfeld, toilet paper can be shared. All right, I should explain that was our producer, David Guggenheim from no one known as Googleheim, who apparently wants airtime. Who's going to jump in if he feels the need to explain, correct or clarify things as the show goes on. So thank you, David. Hi, Bob, mother must be so proud. So we look at we

are learning. We are learning. This is not just an entertainment show. In fact, I don't think this is an entertainment. But I'm maintaining you disagree in publicly Bubba glass room or public, but when I go home, I got privacy. Don't punch, don't punch it, don't punch a hole in it. Why do I bother with you? The whole thing that you missed was at the bathrooms. We sacrifice and make

ourselves believe there's privacy in the bathroom. And and yes, there is an illusion of privacy in your home also, Jason, an illusion, Jason. What people don't realize I think, I think is that Amazon and these companies that are listening

in and selling us these products. And by the way, I should say motion detectors, cameras, smart light, so the garage door openers which know when you come in and when you leave, blenders, wrist bands, um fitbits, toothbrushes, pet feeders, all the stuff that's in lenders, anything that's interconnected, it's smart and it's a smart item talks to interconnected blender. What a blender? By the way, everything is almost interconnected.

But you know what they're calling Amazon not a retail company, but the reason that they want to buy I Robot, the robot vacuum company, for instance, is that they happen to be a surveillance company and the reason they're buying an I robot. So now they know the dimensions on the inside of your house. So they're getting as much as they can from your health information, all of your information, and it just feeds it all out there in like a fire hose of information that you were willingly giving out.

Your part of that. You're saying, Okay, for the convenience, I'm willing to do it. But I don't know that we we realize just how much information we're giving up. I want to say for the record, this is why I have my own vacuum. I I have a vacuum. And I'll tell you something else. I know where you're gonna go. You're gonna go. You'd a vacuum. You've got a person of vacuums. I'm vacuum. I am a sweeper and a vacuum. So Amazon, you do not know the dimensions in my house. You don't know where the safe

room is. You don't know where the safe is man, and I may surprise you, do you know why I will never get an eye robot. And my wife's birthday is coming up, and she said I would really like she wanted a bid day, which I don't I don't know, I don't know if they're smart to days, but she wants something a couple of things, but she wants an I robot type thing, and you know I won't get one.

Tell me because we have a dog. These people went to bed one night and the thing was cleaning and the dog had had diarrhea, and the eye robot does not know that, so it's not trying. They woke up their entire every inch of their house was it went through there and spread it everywhere. So that's not that's my reason. I don't care anyone who says that this

podcast is not chock full of information. That's fantastic. So if you have a dog, you don't want to a vacuum robot in k there's a mishap that's that was more valuable than why the door doesn't go down to the floor. We are every segment of this show. The information level is more impactful and more important, more relevant. WHOA WHOA, guys, hang on oh J that music needs

We're not just hearing from producer Google Heim. We now have producer Laurie Crimmy wang In or as we call her queen critiqua, yes, your highness, what do we do wrong? Hang on stop? Amazon is not the only one that does this. And I have a few packages arriving today, and if they do not get here, there is going to be a problem. Alright, Amazon, Google, Facebook, TikTok, they're all surveillance gathering. I didn't mean to pick out just just Amazon, and I don't want to piss off Bezos.

Thank you. I'm beginning to think it's possible that Jeff Bezos nos, I've fortrayed him twice in a somewhat unflattering white I mean, I got asked by Jon Stewart and uh and Jimmy Kimmels separately to do bits where I so. Uh. The Kimmel bit was we did Bezos the Musical, which was actually I think destined for a Broadway future, but again perhaps not not exactly the way Jeff would like to see himself portrayed in the public. So, Jason, as we're doing this episode which it starts out with bathroom

privacy and goes to home privacy. And now I know that I'm sitting right here, I can follow the show. I follow the program. Peter's not a children's book. I don't need to have you know, reintroduced every moment. If I have followed the plot, go ahead, all right, mr, follow the plot, Jason. If you're you're ahead of me, I guess you realize you're nothing more than content in a skin suit. Really, it's averaging on my resume and

special skills. All those quizzes about find out your elf name or find out your porn name, when you put in first street and your first pet, they're basically just fishing for all of your log in information. So to quote George Costanza, is that wrong? Should I not have done that? So? So yeah, okay, I'm I'm hearing. I'm picking up what you're putting down. So in a bigger issue as far as privacy, I wanted to get on an ethical hacker. We got an ethical hacker. An ethical hacker.

There's white hat, there's black hat, there's formerly black hat, there's gray hat, there's green hat, there's red hat. The hell are youtub exactly? So white hat hacker has the hacking skills, came over, possibly from the dark side, but is now employed in Russell, employed by movie studios and countries. Ralph helped to help the certain rough has been to discern Ralph hacker. You got a last name or is it just Amia? I'm sorry, Ralph Comendia Ecamendia. Oh my gosh,

let's move. Let's go to how I got that information out? You say, I've been trying to give it for five freaking minutes. Ralph Ecamendia is an ethical hacker, and I wanted to find out for us. As far as privacy has that ship sailed. Privacy is kind of an illusion when it comes to to the cyber world in the sense that we have never really defined what that means in a technical or digital form. We have kind of

defined it to some degree in the physical world. I joke around and say, well, why do we have doors in the bathroom. We're not doing anything wrong, but we all have to go poop, don't we. So it really is, uh, it's the same. You know, we have not defined that in the digital realm. We have not said, okay, well this is what we feel should be private across the words. Should your name be private? Should your so security number

be private? Should your password be private? Well, the truth is that's kind of a personal choice, right we share passwords. Netflix has a big problem with that these days, right, we share email addresses, we share all kinds of information that we share. So the truth is we've never really defined it. So it's never really existed in the same sense that we would define it in the physical realm. Well we have, I mean, is anybody we've kind of

defined it? Let me, let's prove something here, Jason. Passwords. Now they have all of this stuff where it's the not only password, you're gonna second form of I bet you have bad password, but you have fantastic passwords. I am fantastic. How do you remember them? How do you remember? All? Right, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you something, but I'm not going to give away. Let's do it after. Let's let's hear what Ralph, what do you have to say about passwords?

We are, by the way, heading into a no password world in the future. There are enough things in the technology we use that The truth is, you can identify a person without a password, facial recognition, you know, your thumb print. Uh, there's actually all kinds of hardware specifics in your laptop end or phone that actually could you know, tell the you know the site or whatever you will, um that it's you so we are headed towards a catastrophe.

That's a catastrophe if you're not seen. Mission impossible. A guy puts on my rubber face, he gets my thumb print off a piece of Scotch tape. I don't want any of that. I've got passwords. And let me tell you something. Nobody's getting past my passwords. All right, you want to know, you want to know. I'll give you

a hint to my system. Anything I'm using a password on reminds me of either a song or a Shakespearean quote, or something I've said in my life, and I used the quote and I somehow maybe reduce it in some way to be so, you'd have to know the way my brain thinks, and about that thing, what connections I make to that side. And no one's getting past my passwords. My wife occasionally gets past my passage. And by the way, I'm laughing because she said, nobody's getting because no, you'd

have to know how I think. Now, who would possibly know who I think? Other than I don't know? Maybe someone who knows and monitors every click of your keyboard, that sees everything you order, that ever sees every show you watch, It knows every time you dim the lights, that knows every time you leave your house that has a navigation on you. Who would know that? You know, I'm gonna put out my own eyes at the end of this episode this is you are the voice of

Doom and Gloom. I would like to believe that I could take a shower or a shave without having telecasts of the world. You know that I like pizza with with anchovies. You you're being viewed by people in the shower. Don't think it's gonna be a problem, not gonna be a huge search. I don't think that's good. No one wants to see. You're absolutely right, because I've seen it and and I'll never get that image out of my own eyes. So you're right, let's let's let's live. Not

even not even in the amagin of raph. We give out so much personal information online, sharing passwords and stuff because we haven't been hacked yet. Are we delusional as far as our safety online and privacy? Are we basically lying to ourselves because we don't want to confront how much stuff is out there? Absolutely, people do lie about whether or not they've given out information like their password or other information. In fact, even just your email address.

You've got to keep in mind that every time we meet with somebody, I mean, whether you style a business card or you're you're doing that little QR code scan, you have to give out your email. Well, your email tests to be your user name in many platforms, especially in corporate environments, so you're giving out your user name right without even noticing it, without even realizing it. But even just passwords and sharing passwords. And of course if you're ass to say no, I've never done that, but

the truth is that you have. And there's so many other elements of privacy. Like I said, you know the sort of pin or personal identifying pieces of data that we give out all the time, from birth dates and all that kind of stuff, and if you're on a website, you believe that it's real. I can't tell you how

many times, you know. What one story I can tell you about is where a very well known Hollywood director was easily fished and then every person that he communicated would then send an email from that director saying, hey, check out this this little piece of a movie. I want you to tell me what you think. Immediately when you clicked on the link, you were prompted with a email Passford type of prompt. Of course this was not real. And you know how many people felt for that hundreds

So you believe what you see on a computer. And that's just so easy to to fool people into believing that this is real. So we tend to give up so much information willingly and knowingly, way too often. All right, So how vulnerable are we? Exactly? How far along are

we with getting all our information stolen? You know, you see these movies where guys living a smart home, you know, Billy, you've never a smart home, and a criminal can hack in and can get all this information just for hacking in at the weakest point and then takes over the guy's life. Is that even plausible today? Are are we at that point? It's very very very probable and very

possible to do today. And again there's no stopping this this train when it comes to smart homes and smart everything, right, smart cars and all the other smart things that are coming. In fact, that's one of the big concerns with things like smart cars. And imagine, you know, you can take over somebody's car and just kill him mother. You know, they can't even get out of the car really really, we're at that point, Ralph. All I gotta say is I'm glad you're an ethical hacker and I hope there

are lots like you working to solve these problems. And uh, before you go, and thanks for coming on. Do you have a question for Jason? Hey, Jason, So I gotta ask you how many passwords what George Constanza have and does he change him every thirty days? How many passwords would George have? Well, we know about Bosco that one was forced out of the right. We know at one point tippy toe tippy doe is a big I think a safe word. I think that was a safe word tip.

You gotta get keep you the thing you know, you know how. And this is true even with my fantastic system. Every now and then I'll go to a side I haven't used in a couple of years, and you have to put in your password, and for the life I cannot remember what the hell And then it goes forgot your password and there's an implied you idiot on that forgot your password, and then you have to, you know,

re authenticate yourself all over again. That would be George's problem, George, George would come up with the most fantastic, you know, crazy ideas for passwords, and he would remember them once and that would be that would be the hious. By the way, Ralph, Ralph the hacker bad. Listen, listen, listen before had is Ralph? What what color hat does Ralph were? I think it's if you're lucky, Jason White, because he's already into your stuff. Look go up, look up, thrown

under the bus. Oh my god, Ralph. I take it all back. Jason. You're good with me summarizing just briefly, I'll keep it. I wish you was so Jay. It appears the illusion of privacy in our homes is just that because we keep putting more smart devices in our homes. We've got a hundred thirty million households already had at least one smart speaker, and people are buying more and more online. It's pretty much that ship looks like it's sailing. You can see it at the horizon and bathrooms. We

have no control over that, but it appears. And that's how we start our episode with the really relief. They're never going to make the bathroom stall door go to the floor, and the reason it doesn't there's no incentive to do it. It's not a profit center for a store. They lose money on that square footage um in every place I work, like a department store, how much money can I make per square foot? Lingerie and make up

makes a fortune. Bathroom losing proposition, losing proposition, losing proposition right because you don't go to like a nice department store and say they've got a restroom there that is just a delight. You wouldn't do that, right if it's no public places usually not except high end you know, high end places, will you pay like the Four Seasons

and it's called the White House? You know what if anybody's been to the White House and seeing somebody using the bathroom stall, does the door go all the way to the floor. I assume it does because privacy there we had to state, well, or maybe Jay, it's even higher because they don't trust anybody in there. Oh that's

you know what. That's interesting. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if the only place in the White House where you can have a secure conversation for real is in the restroom with the stall that goes down to the floor. That's your cone of silence right there. Then you then you invite people in. That's Mr Prime Minister, Mr Vice President,

could you join me? Install three plays and hopefully it's sealed, because the guy install four is going I just heard something about Israel and Denmark that I'll tell you about as soon as I flush. And by the way, this has peacemaking possibilities, because you know, if you've got two countries and well you have two countries in stalls side by side, countries don't get along, they hate each other. Suddenly here, by the way, could you spare a square?

Could you spare a square? You know what I'm referencing. Could spare square? As long as I don't have I don't have a square despair. As long as we don't get into that situation, we might have world peace. The other thing, Jason, is it takes us. So I don't know about you, but most people, it takes you a moment to relax. They don't want to give it to you because you know what happens as soon as you

relax and you have private, real privacy. With all the phone apps you have, they did a study that said the more apps you're having the phone, the longer you sit, you never a private bathroom in a restaurant, you're never leaving. You sit back. You're absolutely right because you know my screen and once a week it goes your screen time is up or down this week, and I noticed whenever it says your screen time is down three percent, I've been a little bound up that week. I've been a

little bound up as I understand what your station. I think maybe at the end of each episode we could do something good and it probably won't be able to do that, but have it in this episode. Since we're returning to public restrooms in mass Um, I thought, if we had to just have some ground rules, even more civil to each other. As we're immersed in this delusion

of privacy, we can't do anything about. What if we had an etiquette expert to tell us some ground rules, we all agree on it and it just makes that experience a little more pleasant. Then we've done our work here. So joining us now is a very respected etiquette expert as a manufactures the founder of the Protocol School of Texas, and she teaches business etiquete jation because some of the

top Fortune five hundred companies. Diane GutsMan, So Dane, forgive me, forgive me I'm gonna jump right in forgive the etiquette in the restroom in the urinal world. What's the deal? We look straight ahead? Is that okay? Look left? It right? What do we do? You just go? You just go, But you don't look. You don't you don't mention anything you notice. You don't look. Is that what you don't look? You don't look at your neighbors, look at yourself. I've

been thinking peking but commenting going good for you? Good? No, that's wrong. No comments. You just go if they're not if they're not quite getting in the urinal, can I make a comment? I got one for for your di nutation. I remember going to the farmer's market in l A and an older man. It was in the urinal too away from me, and here's what I hear. Oh birth, Oh my god, oh my god. What do I do? Do I say? Are you okay? Or what is etiquette there?

If it were really serious, Let's say you saw screaming, can you say can I get you help? But if you hear water works or something else going on, and you know, you just know you're pretty safe, do you watch the flusher? I just really want to know. I never I used my feet. I used my feet. I'm in the bathroom, my feet open the door. I brushed

my hair with my feet. Let me ask you the one other thing that I that it doesn't usually come up in a public restroom, but it often comes up when visiting a friend or you know, being at a party. So you you have used the facility, and now you've flushed, and something has gone terribly wrong and the water is rising rather than sinking, and there's going to be a problem. Yes, do you a run for help? Do you be leave immediately and deny everything? Do you see what I mean?

You're so embarrassing, it's so humiliated. So what you have to do is you have to own it. You have to tell, you have to say, and this is how you're gonna say it. You're gonna go to Peter at you know, you at this house. You have now plugged that toilet. It's now overflowing. You're gonna whisper in Peter's here. You know, I know you don't want to know preface it with I know you'd want to know. Someone really

need to go. I hate to tell you, I know you want to know that bathroom meets some attention immediately. And by the way, you're also horizons. Oh my gosh, and don't telling people's medicine cabinets. Don't look in their showers. Come on, say come on, come on people, really big

thank you to today's guests. Chad Costin, the president of the Public Restroom Company, and by the way, update chat actually did save the city of San Francisco over four hundred thousand dollars with his donation of a modular prefabricated bathroom. You can find him at the Public Restroom Company dot com. And cybersecurity expert and ethical hacker Ralph Echamendia, who has worked with Oracle Microsoft as an advisor on the Snowden movie and the TV series Mr. Robot. He's at r

Ekamen on Instagram. That's e H E. M. E. N. And Diane Gossman, etiquette expert and the founder of the Protocols School of Texas. Diane specializes in executive leadership and business etiquette training and is the author of Modern Etiquette for a Better Life. You can find her at protocol School of Texas dot com or on Instagram at Diane Gotsman.

And of course you can follow really No Really on Instagram and on TikTok at Really No Really Podcast, and for any questions you may have, of course, feel free to message us at Instagram at Really No Really Podcast. Thank you to producers Lauria Crimmy and David Unkenheim a k A. Google him, and thank you, of course to write a researcher Zach Williams, and most of all, thank you for listening. We will release new episodes every Tuesday, so please follow us on the I Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. M m hm