Who to Believe?!

is this is, this is flaming topics. So last night I stayed at past my bedtime just to text. I almost thought it was a fake Teddy mellon Camp. I was so invested. If you know Teddy, you know she wakes up at five am to go for a run, and I'm usually going to sleep at five am, all right, But last night I got a text message from our very only a Lamar here about someone that slid into her d M S drum pro Chris Cuomo. Dmitri's face immediately felt to a frown. No, I mean it's not

a frown. It's I'm concerned as to what was said. Well, what we're trying to descipher and I'm all at Leah speaking for herself in a second, but I just you know, I wanted to close that she's definitely going to talk about it. I need her to read through some of these damns back and forth because we are trying to decipher if it we know it's from his Instagram account. We have decipher that. But what we need to know the crime of today is is this a hacker or

Chris Cuomo. All I'm gonna say, and then Leah you take it from here, is the punctuation is a real problem for me. Okay. So Chris Cuomo follows me on Instagram, already followed you or just followed you, just followed me, and thank you to me to for asking the important details. Hey, I'm gonna have a lot of questions. I can tell you that already. Oh I'm certain that. Okay. So Monday morning six four am, which East Coast time schedule yet precisely, So I guess he hasn't really done his research on

me the hacker or Chris Cuomo. Okay, So it says I'm doing a deep dive on what generates games with his z on this and other platforms. You are missing an algorithm element I can explain. I am a fan period of your stand up and podcast, no period, I heard it said. I said, is this Chris or a hacker? Either way, go on Cuomo and they said, and thank you. I'll be coming an NYC soon if you want to come see a live show. He said, it is Chris Cuomo. No one else wants to be me dot dot dot

right now, no punctuation. Well, that leads me to believe it's true. There's more. This just isn't stop here. That would have kept me out past. Here's the thing, because he said right now, If he just said no one else wants to be me, I would have leaned towards hacker. When he said right now, leads me to believe it. But it gets worse. Okay, your followers likely jumped because the content generate a spike that triggered an algorithm that increases placement. I ha ha on it. And then he said,

and your podcast is interesting. How did you get involved with crime? I took a beat. Also, you have to tell us she made it restricted so he couldn't see how quickly she read them. Okay, good call. So then, which was immediately So then I said, I'm headlining Caroline soon in May. I'll let you know and get you some seats. I mean, I just got to know if this is the real Chris Cuomo, you know. But also

I'm very interested in finding out the truth. Slash have had some mysteries in my family that left me unsettled, and I've always wanted to find answers or have a conjugal visit. Who's to say, oh, because I wanted to laugh at that, but I know it's not a joke. Then then at this point, I say, Leah, I need you to send a voice note and we need him to get to a voice note back because we need to confirm or deny if this is Chris or like, I'm just calling Chris now, my buddy Chris. Um, So

she sent a voice note. She sent a voice note, but then he didn't listen to the voice note and continued on messaging. Um, he did listen to the voice note, he just didn't respond with a voice note. Oh so it's been played now, Yeah, he played it, okay. So so I also sent you a late night message that I didn't think that you would see because I was like, if she's still awake, this is a fake Teddy. Now, now you're just going down the rabbit hole and everyone's fake,

fake Teddy melon Cam. What's real in my line? You need to go to the next line because this is the part that really steals. And it's got to be a I mean, could it really be him? And him say this? We are you talking about the question marks? Or before that the P word? Okay, So we'll skip ahead just a couple of sentences, but basically he says, I'm funny, and then he asks about the podcast. He wants to know what works on the podcast. Um, and he asked how the podcast does, and I said, the

pod does right. And this is when I leave a voice note, and I say, Chris, be honest, are you just asking to be a guest on the podcast? You know what, I'll even play the voice note, Chris, to be honest, are you asking if you can be a guest on the pop? I can't even finished cast. You're too busy. You just had to say I was driving to a show, Teddy okay, And he says, no, what does great mean? Why am I asking? Because I'm getting a feel for the space. No, No, there's there's more.

So I say, well, I was gonna say you're welcome to come on. This is no insult, no no offense to us. But if Chris Cuomo wants to do research on pods, he has other options. But even then, if it's a hacker, like to what does this hacker want you? You have to then continue on. Okay, So then I say what do you I say, what do you want to know about specifically? And then he said thanks, because let me go back. I said, well, I was gonna say you're welcome to come on. What do you want

to know about? Specific He said thank you as a purpose? How many downloads a week per month? And then I don't respond, and twenty minutes later he sends four question marks. At this point I say, do not give your credit card information. I don't, and don't tell them you like your childhood pet's name if you ask for that. Don't tell him your PIN number. We know you Lee, You're gonna cough it all up. Don't tell him anything, and everyone knows my password is one to three four Lelah.

That's actually mine too. But anyway, so that's the story of how we almost got Chris Cuomo on this podcast, But then I had to go take matters into my own hands, see if Chris Cuomo was still married, all the things. I spent hours researching him after this um, only to come up with the conclusion that this crime is committed by hacker. But she wasn't. Damn. I checked my d M s. Nothing, nothing from don't know. You should Instagram just sometimes I should. Yeah, you should sometimes, Dmitri,

maybe more people would follow you. Well, okay, So then I said to Teddy, I think the only reason he hasn't reached out too is because you're married. So then that's when Teddy checked to see if Chris Cuoma was still married, which he is. I think the hacker just thinks I'm more gullible than you. I'm more likely to give him all my bitcoin. In fairness, you do weekly talk about wanting to hook up with cons and conjugal visits, and I mean, you do that interest, So yeah, go on,

Teddy SR your voice cracked. I am a prepubescent boy, so that checks out. I mean, if I'm a hacker listening to this podcast, Teddy's talking about her husband putting in a big security system, and You're like, I would love to hook up with a felon. So if I'm if I'm narrowing it down to who's an easier target, Yeah,

it's you. I've always imagined if a robber was in my house that they would just start like laughing in the closet because I'm just always doing the most radium, just listening to my comedy sets out loud, just being like, LEYO, what y'a do today? You know, I don't know what someone was up late watching old Chris Pombo videos. I think we need to ask one additional question of Chris. Okay, which is your favorite episode of the pod? I thought it was going to be if you could be one

Seinfeld character, which would it be? Who does everyone choose? I feel like it's a Lane, right, I was gonna say a Lane, but I mean, yeah, probably a Lane, I guess. Or Jerry. Yeah. I mean I love Jason Alexander very much and I think he's hilarious, but I don't think anyone would want to be George's torture. I would say Jerry. The only reason I might lean lean towards Cramer is because the guys just living by his own rules. He doesn't care, He's oblivious to what everybody

thinks about him. Like that's kind of a blissful way to live through life. That's a very sometimes thing of you to say, and this is why you're not oftentimes yea. And that just brings us into the hot topics for today. Other than the smoldering topic we just had. Today, we're gonna be discussing a heist on the set of the Crown of Florida pageant volunteer stealing money, a child found dead in a freezer in Las Vegas, a questionable juror

from the Scott Peterson case. And finally, we have an amazing guest today who's the host of Crime Scene Confidential and I d who will be taking a deep die with us on the Casey Anthony trial. Uh sorry, Teddy, is it me or was that the first time this Chris Cuomo things I think hitting Or is this the first time she read the hot topics like really newsy? Yeah?

Like she it's it's gone to her head, She's like, and she then if you're tuning in, just so you guys know, I have had contact with Chris Cuomo, So I just feel a little bit like I know more about the news and I am on my high horse. Well then I expect not to hear any song at the end with that one you call us at the Yeah, I mean that's asking for a lot today. Um, okay, you want to lead us in. Sure, let me over myself. I'm Chris Cuomo has a DM ME so I still

can't read. Um. Heist on the set of The Crown sees thieves steal over two hundred thousand dollars worth of antique props. These have stolen over two hundred thousand dollars worth of props from the Netflix series The Crown while the production was shooting nearby. Over three items were taken during the highest, including a Faberge egg, a grandfather clock, a dressing table. You get the picture. Um, the items stolen are not necessarily in the best condition and therefore

of limited value of resell. The Crown set director told the gazette. UM, I mean this is flaming hot. Do you think this was an inside job? What did they say was missing? I'm just curious. My question is do you think this was an inside job? If so, yeah, of course, But don't you think then they would know that these items weren't expensive for resale or no total? I mean together they're two dollars, right, yeah, but I think they're difficult to sell because they're not in great condition,

but you can't also sell them all together. That I mean that kind of cused people, and that you're the one that stole the items, right, I would think so, And I know, you know, didn't Netflix say they Yeah. I just think, you know, it's definitely an inside job, and maybe someone is just really into this time period, like making a special room in their house. Maybe it could. I mean, we go to a scape room, We're like, huh,

that's interesting. Do you think if we looked into it, we find out that the prop master had been d M me with Chris Cuomo and suddenly all this stuff disappeared. Could be? Could be? Can you get into Miss Florida please? I would love to get into Miss Florida, you guys.

Miss Florida Scholarship director allegedly still Actually it's interesting because later in the article it says she's a volunteer, So I'm not sure if he's a director or a volunteer, but either way, she's still one thousand dollars from the program to pay for shopping sprees and dating sites. Drum roll, how old do we think this person is? I don't know. I guess i'd say Teddy seventy six, guys, Teddy learned

how to read in the last two minutes. Okay. So. As executive director of the Miss Florida Scholarship Program, Mary Wickersham codrolled donors and oversaw, a non for profit organization that funded scholarships for young women who competed in pagets. But when she needed money to support her own lifestyle, according to prosecutors, she stole it. I'm just trying it on for size. Hows it feel? It felt a little

forced there and see what happens. Okay. Between December, j Wickersham seventy six spend at least a hundred thousand that belonged to the nonprofit other charities to cover her personal expenses for shopping, home goods, made, cleaning services, dining out, online dating fees, and other costs She goes by either Mary Sullivan and Mary Harvey. Was arrested Tuesday on seven accounts of wire fraud. You guys, I just want to say, first and foremost, let the woman live. She's on dating

sites at seventy six. Just let her have this. She took hundred dollars to do it. I she know she should reach out to she should swipe right or whatever it is that you're supposed to swipe the Tinder swindler. I think that she made a combination of the Tinder swindler and Anna delbe. Oh my, we still need to get into Anna delb on another day because that I have, we haven't gotten her on the pod yet. I know what, Anna Delbie, please reach out or any of your friends.

They use their own credit cards or their bosses. Guys Chris Cuomo could be listening. This is pathetic. It's not pathetic. Also, I'm trying to drop in the chat um An image, but it won't let me. I just I feel like everyone needs to see this. Why wouldn't let me do this? Is? It isn't Mary, It's even better. It's even if you can imagine. Okay, hold on, yes me and I forgot you are a beauty pageant gal. So here's when I confessed to my crime. What what are these shoes? Only

issue there? Pageant? I mean there's a lot of issues, like the bracelet with the bathing suit, but I don't know what it's like. Who do I think I am wonder woman in a swimsuit? What is that? Yeah, um, no, you didn't know that. Leah wasn't what was it, miss new York, Miss New York. I mean she wasn't missed New York, but she's in the past. No, I was missed New York. If I had competed in a a synagogue, you know I would have won, but up against New York's finest, I I didn't even place top twenty. But

I will tell you what I did win. I won in a word for my writing, which is not the thing you want to win at a beauty pageant. I didn't even know there was writing a category, and the beauty pageant, yeah, they don't show it to anyone. But I sent in an essay about me and my accomplishments and what I was doing for the world, which was honestly not much. But compared to everyone else, I think I was killing it. And moral of the story is they gave me a word from my brain. So this

this hurts to this day. But can we also talk about the fact that I had my abs had abs. I know this is your extremely. I look like the tow Why don't you put this? I'm you need to post this phone out and say what running for Miss California. Now try I don't know um this at this point there at what you're the pageant writing winner, come up with something that's your bio. Paget writing winner. I think I weighed maybe forty pounds more now than I do

in this photo. I would be cat fishing people. Um well, which brings us to the next heartbreaking hot topic from a People magazine article. Las Vegas child found dead in a freezer after sibling hands a teacher a note asking for help to send home. Las Vegas authorities have arrested a thirty five year old man after allegedly finding the body of a young boy and a freezer in his garage. Online court records confirmed that Brandon Tooselin was charged Tuesday

with two counts of first degree kidnapping. Homicide. Detectives are handling the investigation after the discovery of the boy's body Tuesday afternoon. Las Vegas Metropolitan Police have yet to release the victim's name or age. UM Oh my gosh, I can't um the note there was a note had handed to the elementary school teacher. The note was written by the girl's mother and explained that her boyfriend had been holding her against her will inside their home, the lieutenant

told the paper. Additionally, the mother wrote in the note that she did not know where the girl's brother was and believed he was likely deceased. The teacher reported the distressing note to police around eight am Tuesday, and the officers dispatched to the neighborhood stopped at Towson's car at around ten am. Toselin was taken into custody and police spoke to the victim's mother, who told them she hadn't seen her son since since December eleventh. The paper reports.

She also allegedly accused Hoselin of months of physical abuse. After Tilson's arrest, police executed a search warrant of the home and in the garage found the dead child in the freezer. Toselin is not the father of the Veil mctam victim or his sister. Spencer told the paper that the mother had been barred from entering the garage. He also said Tosin will likely face a murder charge when

he's arraigned this morning. Toselin has yet to enter please to the kidnapping charges, and information on his lawyers was not available. Spencer told the papers detectives would be looking into whether the mother was involved in the boy's death. You got so heartbreaking this. It's just so I can't even imagine with the mother and the sister are going through right now and what they've been going through. Is

this is what happened to the brother. It I have so many questions about it though, because apparently they rested him in his car, which means he left the house. So my question was, was she locked in the house? Was she you know he was she was barred from going to the garage, But does that mean that there was a lock on the garage or I just it feels like definitely if. I mean, I have no idea, but maybe she's just definitely afraid. I mean, I think if you're being abused, I know, but I still weren't

all the information. I just feel like they're more details that they're not giving us. I'm sure more will come out in time, and that will hear. This is not the end of this case that we're hearing about, for sure. And this is so tragic. The fact that she wrote the note to give to her daughter, to give to

her teacher. I can't even imagine being the teacher receiving that note, well, thank god that the teacher did something about it, because she could have very well thought, oh, this is not you know what I mean that I've heard. I've heard stories before where teachers have gotten information and assumed that it wasn't true. That's that's a pretty heavy note to get and be like, oh, you know, well, like I mean, you're right, Thank thank goodness that she did.

But we'll remember the case with um the boy that was in California and the teacher had been told multiple times and just it happens so well. It's kind of a similar thing too, when people confess to murders that they didn't confess to. I think I think at some point sometimes kids they just think that kids make things up, or they've seen something in a movie or you know, and that's why they deny the truth. You know, there's always some sort of weird element there. But thank god

she took the seriously. And I'm I'm praying that the mother is not involved and that is it's all. Ah, that's maybe we just moved. Yeah, we'll just we'll just keep it. But I'm sure we'll hear more about this case in the future. Okay, So I'm sure you guys have heard all about this already. But if not, there's a juror in the Scott Peterson case who's an emotional

wreck who wanted him to pay extra testifies. When the alternate juror first walked into the deliberations room nearly eighteen years ago, she blurted out that Scott Peterson, on trial for the killing of his pregnant wife and unborn son, should pay for killing the little man. A former juror in the notorious case testified Tuesday, we were like, whoa

wha before you try to give us your opinion. We have a kind of process for mar jur Greg burrat List testified anyone walking in and saying, hey, guilty or not guilty. We gave everyone equal respect to discuss it. Also Tuesday, the judge postponed until March the remainder of the evidentiary hearing that was supposed to end this week, giving Peterson's lawyers more time to determine whether Nice first

discussed a book deal before the trial concluded. The murder convictions in the deaths of Peterson's wife, Lazy, and unborn son they planned to name Connor, were upheld. However, their bodies washed up separately in April two thousand three along the Richmond shoreline close to her. Peterson told police he had been fishing the Christmas eve his wife had vanished. Peterson is now serving life without parole and is housed

in a Redwood City jail. During his latest appeal, he appeared in court wearing a red jail suit and shackles every day this week. I don't know why that detail mattered, but here we are. I guess Red is the new Orange. Okay. Nice spent Friday and Monday on the witness stand defending herself from accusations that she hit her history of domestic

violence issues to get on the trial. Although her then boyfriend pled no contest in domestic abuse or does a couple of years before the Peterson trial, she testified that

she was the aggressor and never considered herself a victim. Nonetheless, Peterson lawyer Pat Harris, who represented him in the original try in two thousand four four, try to show Tuesday that, along with hiding her past, Nice, known to journalists as Strawberry Shortcake love the media for her bright red dyed hair, sought to get on the trail from notoriety am I

turning it to Teddy from notoriety and financial reasons. Under questioning um, it was said that Nice seemed to enjoy the attention she received coming and going from the Redwood City Courthouse. As you guys think that, I mean, this is insane. I'm sorry, but didn't this happen in two thousand and three? Why are they just bringing this up now?

It's not like this is new information. It's media propaganda to get us focused away from looking at all the things that are actually wrong with the American government and conspiracy theories. I don't know. Also, I do want to point out that you enunciated um dyed red hair as if that was well, it could be a red herring, Okay. I also is it is it Nice or niece? I can't I know. I mean, I could have looked it

up beforehand, but here we are. So do you think that they're going to grant Peterson a new trial based on this juror's biased opinion, allegedly biased opinion? I mean, who knows, But I feel like eighteen years is a pretty long time without any new evidence. I'm sorry, but even if he was granted a new trial, what's worse than a life without parole death sentence, right, I don't, and I don't think that anyone would think that he's

not guilty at this point. And also, did he have highlighted hair again or was it his natural color when he was in the red jumpsuit. I'm just wondering if he could come to trial with frosted tips might make him more likable. I'm also I don't want to know the obvious if you think he's attractive. UM. On that note, we should take a little break before we bring in our very special guest. Let's cut her off with a break real quick before she answers that wait is that

Chris Cuomo? Okay, yeah, and we're back. Guys, hope you didn't commit any crimes in the commercial break. You're listening to Real Time Crime. I'm Leo Lamar. We've got Teddy Mellencamp here sometimes Dmitri, and we finally have our incredible

guests for today that we are all so excited about. You. Guys, our guest has investigated some of the country's most shocking crimes, having served as a c s I for the Orange County Sheriff's Office on the investigation into the tragic two th eight death of toddler Kaylee Anthon me and worked as part of an emergency community response to identify the

victims of the Pulse nightclub tragedy. She is the host and star of the new show crime Scene Confidential on I D. It follows her as she utilizes her scientific expertise to revisit some of America's most shocking and controversial cases by exploring the complexity surrounding each item of forensic evidence, navigating the tactics used by the prosecution and the defense, and speaking with central figures in the case, whether they're

the victims of the loved ones or the convicted perpetrators themselves. She strives to bring clarity and closure to those who feel the immeasurable loss of these horrific crimes. And today we have with us our wonderful guests Elena Burrows. Hi, Lena, Hey, thank you so much for having me. We're so counting down the days until marje Wait. You and me both so incredible to have you here with us. We're so excited.

And we also know that the first episode of Crime Scene Confidential covers all the details of the Casey Anthony case and Teddy and I obviously have a million questions, and I already see you NodD in your head. You're like, yes, okay, alright, I'm glad we're all on the same page already. And for those of you who may not know about the Keyley and Casey Anthony. Case Casey Anthony was the mother of Kaylee Anthony, who was missing for thirty one days

and ultimately was found debt so. Casey Anthony was living in Orlando, Florida, with her maternal grandparents and Casey's mom and dad, Cindy and George Anthony. Cindy called the police on July fifteen, two eight to report Kaylee had been missing for thirty one days. An hour before her missing persons call, Cindy called nine one one, claimy she found her daughter's car, her daughter's Casey Anthony, and it smelled

like there had been a dead body inside. Casey Anthony said she hadn't seen her daughter in weeks and didn't call because she had been looking for her and have gone through other resources to find her and was attempting to find her herself. Kaylee's skeletal remains were found with a blanket inside a laundry bag on December near the Anthony's family home. Okay, we can go through more details of the case, but I think first let's get a little more information about you. Why did you become a

crime scene investigator? What in your life brought you to this moment? And there's so much on the Capricorn, I like on the beach and dead things with this tick to all capricorns enjoy that? Or is that just a spinoff from there? There's gonna be some studies They're gonna have to be done to confirm. But I can say that it's true for me. I can do that on Google. Right now, Let's get up home. Yeah, So does c S I stand for a Capricorn scene investigator? It does

in this case. Uh so, all right, a little bit about my background. So my father had trained law enforcement for that was his business. He's an industrial organizational psychologist and they deal with kind of how police choose the best police to promote and get the right people for

the right job. And I took an interest in in that job, and while I was in college, I went to work for him and trying to help pick the best police and trying to help them like write their resumes and prepare for promotional exams, and so part of what I was doing is helping write these promotional exams. So to write the tests, I had to take the general orders and standard operating procedures, and I always gravitated towards the crime scene ones and I was like, I'm

gonna write a lot of questions about these. So I started studying them and I just went, this is what I want to do. And so I called the local sheriff's office in where I was living, which happened to be the Orange County Sheriff's Office, and I said, hey, what is it. What do you need to be a crime scene investigator? Because at that point in time, right c S, I like the shows and things were kind of starting to take off, but it was just a little bit, a little bit before that, and they said,

you know, this is what you need. You need to have this background in science, you need to have all this. And at that point in time, I had a bachelor's degree in communication, right, not kind of the ideal background to be a crime scene investigator, but I'm really stubborn, and so I said, all right, cool. So I went and I got a master's degree in criminal justice in three semesters because they said that's what it's gonna take.

And I'm like, all right, got it next, And I went and applied, and um, I got the job as a crime scene investigator. And I just knew that that was my path, right. I don't do well with injustice, um, and I always took it as a challenge. Every case that I worked was like, oh, you think you're going to do that to this person that I've never met. Doesn't matter, right, it does not matter to me. That doesn't sit well with me. You know. I'd always read like the police reports and I'd be like, okay, a

victim is there you Susan Jones? Oh not today. Not to this, Susan Jones. You're not right. And I thought, this is my job to find whatever the fingerprint the d NA, Like I took it as a personal assault that you think you're going to get away with this, And then I went no, because I'm going to be the one that's gonna find this whatever you left behind. You can't think you're smarter than me, Like, no, not today? Now?

Is there a is there an issue with that? Because I've like a lot of people say, you can't get emotionally invested in cases, right, Yeah? Do you find that to be a problem or is that just something that obviously it spurred you on and it made you better at what you do. But is that a problem with some that they get too invested in No, I don't think so because to me, like I don't know that person in I just use that as my motivation, you know,

to to do better at my job. And you know, just in the like global sense of injustice, right, I don't personally know the person or have any kind of motivation to help them in some way. Um. You know, as as time goes on, it gets harder because you know children, right, crimes against people like children and the elderly and these particularly vulnerable parts of the population, it

makes it challenging. And there were many a time when I would drive to a crime scene, I would work my call, might work my case, and I would get in my van and I would cry the way back to the sheriff's office. Because we're human, right, There is no switch that you turn on or off when you go and you do your job, and that humanity is what also makes us good at our jobs. You know.

I don't think anybody expects somebody to want to be motivated to do this job for a very little sum of money and not have some bigger purpose in life that humanity is. What does that for us? Is there a particular case that was the hardest for you that

to separate between home life and yeah, Kaylee, right? And the reason and it's so hard is you know, I worked hundreds of homicide cases, and I've worked all kinds of death cases that are all challenging for different reasons, but this one was different because the whole world knew the victim. And you know, in these cases, you try to work and you try to separate, and you go home and you live your life and you try to

leave it and unpack it. But how do you leave this case when the whole world is saying your victim's name, and the whole world is playing this video tape of this beautiful, little brown eyed girl singing to her grandmother and playing and every time you go home and you turn on the news, it's there, and you go to the store and it's on People magazine, and all of a sudden, there is no separation between your personal life and your life because the whole world knows and they're

asking you about it everywhere you go, so that that line of separation becomes very blurry. And how many years later and we're still talking about it? Right? Is there any chance, like in any world, that Casey did not do this? You know? I think it's the hard part for people is I don't think anybody doubts there's involvement. Right. As an investigator, we look at not only what we have, but what we do not have, right, so we have to say scientifically, we have the crime scene being located

very near to the house. We have the car that belongs to her that is involved. We have duct tape similar brand, you know, our same brands found in the house. We have the bag that she is in, a matching bag that's in the house. The clothing that she is in, we have pictures of her wearing that. We also have pictures and family albums, so this is not clothing that she's been dressed by a stranger. The diapers that she's in are the same brand that has been purchased by

the house. All of these things indicate. The blanket is Winnie the Pooh, it's the same, you know. The way that her crib has been decorated in the house. The totality of the evidence that we look at. These are all things that bring us back towards the Anthony residence when we look at what we don't have, because that is just as important as what we do have. What we don't have is evidence of third party involvement in that entirety of what I listed. Do we have a

car that belongs to a stranger. Do we have fingerprints or DNA that give us an idea that the child has been kidnapped or been in the care of somebody else. If a child is kidnapped and under the care in the care of somebody for thirty days missing, we would expect to see clothing that they had to purchase at a target, at a Walmart somewhere on the road on the one that does not match. But she's in clothing that has been worn by the family, been bought by

the family. If she's in the care of a stranger for thirty days, you have to buy diapers. You have to buy something when you're on the run on the road. But she's in diapers that are the same brand that is purchased by the family. So we need to look at what we have and what we don't have. What we don't have is evidence of third party involvement. And

sorry to monopolize this guy. I have another question because what I have never understood about this case is when Casey leaves her home for those thirty one days and Kaylee has meant missing. If we're supposed to believe that you know, Kayley did go missing, where is the boyfriend thinking that Kayley is for thirty one days that she's

staying at and where do her parents? I think that Casey is that's when you have to look at a pattern of behavior, and there's a pattern of behavior that she tells a lot of stories to a lot of people, and that this is not a typical behavior for her to tell, you know, group A that I'm with B and tell group B that I'm with group A. So people don't ask a lot of questions, and it's just doesn't seem to be a typical behavior for her to

tell stories to people, and they don't seem to question this. Well, she's such a pathological lie. She lies about everything. She lies about still having a job working at Universal, she lies about her boyfriend's mom having cancer, like all these weird little details and then they never meet the families and then saying that she dropped Kayleie off with Zanny the nanny who and this is a real person who doesn't even know the family and it had nothing to

do with this. You know. Somebody even said that they thought Zanni meant zan X, right. It was a it was a theory that was was tossed around. Did she you know, was there evidence that she drugged the child? And then dropping her off with Zanny was you know, a key phrase for giving her a xan X and kind of letting her sleep it off or something. And

then you have to look at her behavior. And I saw um when you were talking when somebody when Leah was reading doing the intro and she said she was she says she was looking for her, and you did your air quotes with your fingers. So it's it's like, for that amount of time, you didn't contact anybody, so

I was looking for on my own. But then she also went out and that was partying in this and at a time it's it's kind of I mean, I think that falls into that category of what you have and what you don't have, and when you watch someone's behavior, like if if anyone thought anyone's sane or anyone that I know thought that their kid was missing. That's not the behavior that says, hey, I have nothing to do

with this, help me out. So what you're going to be very interested to see in the first episode of Crime Seemed Confidential that we have not seen before is that I'm going to sit down and speak with not only Cindy, but we're we're gonna see that I sit down and speak with Dorothy Clay Sims, which is her defense attorney, which we have never spoken too before, and Dorothy is going to offer up some explanations for Casey's behavior that maybe people haven't given much thought to. HM.

That's interesting. I'll just if someone is a pathological liar. I know lie detector tests aren't necessarily accurate, but can they pass Lie detector tests if they are pathological? The thing about lie detector tests is that they're they're not to begin with and uh and even lie detector tests, it depends. The modern day lie detector tests is called a voice stress analysis, So they now look at the pattern and the changes in your voice and the stress

that that enables. So we don't even do the old school where they kind of hook up the wires around your chest that you've seen kind of in old school police movies. Now they do voice stress analysis, but they kind of some of the things that I looked up, and not that this really means anything. I have said that there was something that happened inside of the house, inside of that family house, that all that her dad knows about, that her mom knows about. Do you think

there's any truth to that. I don't have any scientific evidence of anything of that nature. Right, There's not gonna be a lot of theories that get thrown about, but I don't have any scientific evidence that would support that. And I think that is the theme of this show, and that's what I encourage people to focus on, because, especially with this case, there's so much emotional involvement in attachment,

especially when we see a child involved. Everybody gets so emotionally invested in this, and the tendency is to want to follow a narrative, and no matter what we talk about, there are narratives in this case, and there's narratives that are that are portrayed by the defense, and there are

narratives that are portrayed by the prosecution. There are narratives that are portrayed by the media, and we immediately, because we're humans, we jump up and we want to follow a narrative and we go, yes that and we we follow that path. What physic iCal evidence does is it

doesn't follow a narrative. It simply is. And what I encourage people to do that and that's the beauty of forensic science, and that's the beauty of crime scene confidential is we are going to follow the evidence and the forensic science behind it, and we're gonna say, okay, uh, we're not. We're not gonna fall prey to following a narrative. We're going to look at the evidence and you're gonna follow it from my perspective from a crime scene perspective, which,

by the way, is new. We have never ever had a crime show before that has looked at from a crime scene investigator's perspective. We've seen dramatization of crime scene before, but we've never seen real deal from the evidence perspective, from a crime scene point of view. We're gonna follow this and we're not we're la la la la, Not I not following the narrative. We're following crime scene facts and then allow people to look at the totality of evidence,

not what I call cafeteria style. We don't take our trade down and go oh yeah, I'll take that, and I'll take is, and I'll build a narrative built upon the things that support my belief. No. No, we're gonna look at the evidence and the totality of the evidence and what does that support, not a narrative. This feels very reminiscent of the John ben Ay Ramsey case in that the public wanted to form a narrative. And well,

I guess my other question. I mean, I have so many questions for you, But I was actually talking about the narrative that they've been saying that she potentially drowned in the pool. No way to prove or disprove that theory. And he also knows that the case being in Florida, everybody in Florida is used to hearing on the news very tragically. But because we have so many bodies of water and so many people in Florida have pools, it is not uncommon to hear on the news that we

have drownings very frequently in Florida. Because Toddler's come, you know, come out and drown in pools. The main difference that we have is I have worked very many drownings of toddler's. What I assure you does not happen is that when you discover a drowned child in a pool, what a parent does. No matter in what state you find your child, you always have hope something you can save my child.

If the child is at the bottom of the pool and is blue, you jump in, you pull the child out, You call nine one one, and you think a medical miracle will save my child. The paramedics will come, they will bring them back, they'll take them to the hospital, they will save them, they will do something. In one of the child drownings that I have worked was called what you do not do is go, oh, well, guess

I'll bagger upright well, And that's the disconnect. That's the disconnect because at what point do you think, and it goes to onto the Scott Peterson's of the world and all these people, at what point do you think what you're doing is better than than the really the easiest route. If if that was the case, you call and you say there was an accident, and then you go from there.

If got Peterson wants to get a divorceing. Excuse my, but get a divorce right, So we don't We can't explain the mental thought process here if it were an accident, why the first thought was cover up the behavior rather than call and report it if it were a drowning. Because scientifically we can say what happened. We can talk about postmortem root banding and having a deceased body that is mitochondreally linked to Casey in the car. But what

scientifically I cannot explain is intent. What about did you? Was there ever any information on who Kyley's actual father is? Because I saw something that said two of the guys that they assumed could potentially be her father both died in a car crash. But is that the same car crash? What are the chances that two people, well it wasn't father also in a car crash and that's when they

reconnected George was involved in a car crash. You're no, but this Two of the guys that they said the potential father's potential fathers both died in the car crash. Sorry I didn't say that probably died. Okay, So they still don't know who her dad is. I don't know who knows who the father is I don't personally know who it was. Well, so, what are your thoughts in the fact of the googling of chloroform and then the theory that she possibly over chloroformed her daughter. You know,

it's a it's another theory. Uh, I can't you know, I know that I can't remember if we address that on the on an episode one or not. But it's it's um so hard to say. There's there's so many pieces of evidence out there that again, you know, science can lead people to make a logical conclusion. We can provide all of the evidence in the world scientifically speaking, but ultimately, in our justice system, jurors will still be

charged with making a conclusion upon that evidence. You know, we're not always and very rarely going to have confessions and video tapes of crimes, or we wouldn't need a jury to make a decision. So all we can do as investigators is have evidence, provide that evidence, and trust people to make a decision. And And what are your thoughts on Casey potentially writing a book that's the rumor

now that she is. I have learned over my years of investigation and being a human that I am only responsible for what I do, and I sleep very well at night, and I can't be responsible for what other people do and how they sleep at night. I will say this, I try very hard to refer to this case as the Kaylee Anthony case because we need to be very victim centric and ensure that we keep the memory of our victims alive and not give attention two suspects and then and give more attention to our victims.

It makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I'm sorry, I just have one more question because it has been weighing on me. It's very confusing. So Ray Kronk suggested that they the police searched the area, the wooded area less than half a mile from the Anthony's home, and then the bones are found. Right, does this at all seems suspicious? No, that if you know Florida and if you know that area, that area is kind of a slope off of the road. It's very heavily tread, heavily vined.

There was poison ivy, it floods. We had hurricane season, so it would flood and recede. It wasn't always easily accessible. So to me that you know, it's almost one of those areas that you can tell somebody to search three times and they probably wouldn't find the same thing, you know, three times in a row. So it's not necessarily suspicious to me. It just depends on the observational skills of

the individual that's sent out there to search. Okay, And unfortunately we do have to wrap for today, But do you have any final thoughts that you wanted to share with us well the show or yeah, anything. Yeah, what I will say is, you know, while the first episode focuses on this case, which everybody obviously is you know, probably more familiar with, the rest of the series goes around the United States and we look at some other really controversial cases that deal with you know, shocking cases,

shocking deaths, shocking injustices, some shocking betrayals. And I think that I mean, as a veteran c S I when I reviewed all of these cases, I am just absolutely blown away. And I know that our viewers are just going to be so excited about this, about this show. It's totally new. I can't wait. I know you're gonna love episode one, but they honestly get so good throughout the entire series. Well, you've got me hooked already. I

mean everything you said. Wait, I was like this the whole time you were talking, like I honestly forgot her. We love your hair. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. We'll see March Finalina, thank you all right, thank you so much. That was so smart how she said about calling it the case about the victims. I don't know why that never processed for me. I mean I was probably still called the Casey Anthony case because I'm an idiot. But but it's

interesting because that's so true. Um, you know, like we call it the John benn A Ramsey case. We don't. Yeah, either way. I loved her. I loved how matters of fact she was. I loved how she didn't waiver when we would try to act. We would come up with our theories like she's like no, she's like she's like, I'm following the science pitches and were like, could easily be a prosecutor as well. She's so smart and so cool.

I can't wait to watch the show me either. I know we have a lot going on with you, you know, auditioning for the news and dming with Chris Womo allegedly, but um, do you want to close this out and sing the song one final time. Oh thank god I get to sing it. Okay, guys, if you want to call in and leave us a voicemail, whether you're professing your love for us or sharing a crime you think

we should look into. You know the number time that's eight six six twenty one crime eight six six twenty one time that's eight six six two on two seven four six three. And make sure to find us on the internet. Our Instagram is at Real Time Crime Pod. You can find me at Lea Lamar that's with two rs at Teddy Mellencamp and my TikTok is Lea Lamar with five rs because Leo Lamar was taken. And then also, Dmitri's handle is not sometimes Dmitri, which is very confusing.

It's just his name, Dmitri. Papas papasa, papas Glad we're learning this. We all know each other very well and we're all best friends. The reason sometimes Matris because I was never called that until now, so I didn't you know, there's still time to change. I wonder if it's taken. Are you trying to say that there was a life before this podcast? Thank you? But if you get something from sometimes to Matri. That is a hack. I'm about to go get that Instagram handle right now. Okay, guys,

everyone a safe, stay healthy. I'm broken. Is happening well, y'all? Will the real Chris Cuomo please DM me? Maybe bye bye by? It's real time grad real time gro I mean, is it actually real time crime? I'm solving anything or is that just the thing we say, it's a thing we say, got it? Okay, see you next week for more real time crime, only on I Heart Radio.