Safety in Numbers

in the store for you. We've got a lot of guests, Like, uh, there's a lot of guests today, so we're not gonna do hot topics. We're just gonna talk about a lot of big cases. Dmitri, how do you feel about this? Not that you have a say yeah, no, can I answer? Now? That's cool with you? Um, I like it because listen, everybody wants to talk crime, right, That's why they're is this. That's why there's a podcast, and that's why there's you know, so many shows and stuff age. Everyone wants to talk

about it. Get some other people in here, let's get some some different views and stuff like that and find out what's really going on. That's how you solve cases. So just so everyone knows we're going to be deep diving into the amber heard Johnny Depp case. Again. We are all captivated by this case. And if you're not,

I mean, no offense, but you don't really understand good entertainment. Um, So we're gonna be talking with one of the biggest entertainment lawyers in Hollywood who's going to tell us what she thinks is going to happen at the end of this case. We'll pick her brain about it a little bit as well, and then we're going to get into talking with two of the producers of ABC's Who Do You Believe, which is a new true crime show. And you guys, this is gonna be a great episode. I'm

very excited. Also, just let everyone know I'm going to a visa literally right after this. I've never been to Europe. I don't know how that's possible. Really, yeah, I know. See, even Demitria surprised. What you look like. Your your world traveler like you you've you know, so I just assumed that you had been everywhere. Thank you. I'm actually been living in a bubble pretty much my whole life, and I've decided that i need to see the world. So every episode. I'll be in a different place for the

next almost month. Hey, so, if you happen to be a fan of the podcast and you live in Dubai, I'll be there at the very end of my trip doing a comedy festival. So if you want to come meet up in person, let me know. And guys, let's waste no more time. We got to talk about our first guest, who is absolutely stunning and intelligent and successful and I'm so excited she's on the podcast today. She's a Beverly Hills based entertainment attorney. Her name is Mitra

are In. She's represented every type of player in Hollywood, from actors, every type of player, including my ex Okay, I mean it's like you knew it was coming, all right. From actors, musicians, producers, movie studios, book publishers. Her longtime clients have included Justin Baldoni, Oh I love him, NFL player Ryan Claudy, the world famous Magic Castle. She just reps the Magic Castle casually. That's pretty wild. She's done deals for Larry King, Bill Maher Rain Wilson, Penn Badgeley,

Ja Shetty. Not only does she have firsthand knowledge on a wide range of issues including intellectual property, copyright infringement, incorporation, show business contracts, and sexual harassment plates. But she has been closely following amber Heard's defamation trial. Why do I say defamation every time? I'm not sure, I think because after that one story, I'm you're afraid that you're gonna say defecation. So I think you just kind of tweak

it defamation. It's it's the defamation defication trial. Sadly, it is the deafamation death vaication trap. We should make a musical. We should make a musical. Um, Okay, so you guys, basically moral of the story is she's going to come on, Mitra is incredible. She's gonna share some insight on the Johnny Depp amber Heard story, and maybe we can slowly or very quickly ask her about Mike Tyson and asap Rocky. Let's see. All right, please, welcome to the show, Mitra.

How's it going. Hello, Oh my gosh, it's nice to meet you. To me, just so you know, I've already introduced you. I can just just imagine feeling very loved with a very big, flattering introduction. We're so exciting, said, but okay, you know, yeah, only only the best things, only your biggest credits, all of it. They were Honestly, I'm still learning how to read. And it was a lot,

so thank you. Um, you know, it was just like intelligent, successful, gorgeous killing It worked with all the stars, but then named them all, you know. And then there was a gas when we got to the Magic Castle. There was a bit of gasp from both of us. We gasped. I was like, the whole Magic Castle is your client. Yeah, I mean that's wild. For people who don't live in Los Angeles, you don't know how legendary the Magic Castle is,

and that's a you problem. But but it is a destination where it's worth coming to l A just to go to the Magic Castle. I actually know it sounds crazy. Hate magic. I have magic phobia. Well I know, except for when I go to the Magic Castle because I get so nervous that they're not going to finish their trick and it just performers anxiety. It's performers anxiety. And so every time I even went on a date with this guy once and he hired a magician. Is a long story, but I was like this, I mean, you're

not gonna get a second date. Yeah, surprisingly we're not married anyway, Enough about me, Mitra, let's just jump right in. Weird you're here? Sorry, go ahead? Do you feel good about that one? To me? Do you know what? It came to me? And I was just like, you know what, that's gotta be seen? Sorry, go ahead? Oh boy, Okay, he really would have had to pull a rabbit out of a hat to get a second date. Okay, we're moving on anyway. All right, Okay, I'm gonna go back

in the waiting room and come back. Guys are done with whatever this is. Okay, I'm like interview, so sorry, come on one this morning. Um, Metra, can you tell us what is the latest with the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial. First of all, this has been the most amazing case to cover. Um, it's like so many emotions happening. It's sad. Um, it's hard to see, you know, a celebrity you know and love kind of airing it

all out like that. Um. There are times when he's charming and funny and you know, and it's really kind of hard to imagine that in order to get justice a celebrity has to go through all of this and really, Era all his dirty laundry. So as far as the updates. Um. But so we started with the plaintiff's case, which is Johnny Depp sued Amber heard right, and then of course she countersued for the same thing for defamation for what he alleged in his lawsuit, basically that she was a liar. Um.

And so he sues her for defamation. And defamation we all know is like something that somebody says about you that's negative, or somebody puts something in print that's negative. Um. But for a celebrity, they have to also go beyond that and show that they did it with malice so maliciously meaning knowing it was, knowing it was false, or not caring if those false. Um. So Johnny's lawyers kind of started by, you know what I like to call the character development phase of a trial, which is very

much like a movie. You're kind of introducing Johnny Depp as the character. Um, you know, his childhood. It started with testimony of his sister talking about when he was a kid and was abused and also describing kind of the learned adaptive behaviors that he picked up as a kid, which is getting you know, kind of escaping from the abuse or staying out of the line of fire, so

to speak. Um, and then sort of went through the dynamic of their relationship with Amber being the aggressor and the one that's constantly sort of poking at him, and you know, even played some recordings of her admitting to having hit him. I hit you, I hate you, sort of stuff like that, and um. And then after that, you know, they get to cross exam and him on the other side, and that's when sort of the ugly stuff comes out. So can I ask you a quick question?

So it's funny because we think that we know somebody, especially when they're an active you think you know. So the character set up is always quite fascinating because you learned so much more about someone that you kind of even though we know we know don't know them, we think we do. Um, how do you think his team did with his character set up? I think they did

a great job. They made him look really vulnerable. Sometimes celebrities are really larger than life, and so you know, and it's and like you said, it's really hard to distinguish what we know about them as characters and what we also project on celebrities as you know, this is who we think they are, who we want them to be.

So they presented him as this, you know, this guy who has had addiction problems but also created empathy around that with his you know, sort of his abuse and all of that, um and his struggles to get sober. And so I think they did a really really good job of humanizing him, and that's key when you're in any lawsuit. Yeah. So, I mean I have a million questions, but you know, I see him as Captain Jack Sparrow on the stand. You know, he's so charming and he's

without even trying to hilarious. You know, his use of language is so unique, and the fact that he even when he's insulting someone, he's like, refers to her as a slippery whore. It's like, what, you know, do you think that these elements of charm will and his you know, humor so to speak. You know, when he's correcting, um, correcting them when they're asking, oh is that right, and he's like, no, it's not best of luck, it's best if luck. Yeah, he's good, but I mean, I mean,

he's a good actor. But I honestly, I'm like, wow, this feels like they are shooting a movie that we're all watching in real time, like we're all on the Truman Show. But do you think that that sort of element of charm and humor will help him in the trial or do you think that ultimately people will see through it or they won't be able to identify that as as something that would help him in the trial. Yeah,

that's a good question. So you got to think like a jury, right, so you are going to be here for six weeks not able to look at anything because you know, it's a high profile case, so you're not allowed to really look at anything outside of what's going on in that courtroom. Some of it's really boring. Some of it drags out. I mean some of the questions that lawyers have to ask are really foundational or you know kind of no one cares in a sense, but they have to kind of lay things out legally. So

it's you know, hours and hours a day. So if I were on a jury, I'd be like, oh my god, thank god somebody made me laugh or thank god I saw like some emotion or some personality or something, because you kind of need those moments, you know, of like comic relief or entertainment. Um, so I can't imagine that

would that would hurt him. You know what's interesting too, is that when stuff like Lea pointed out like like oh, he's like, no, it's not of it's if like when correcting those things, if I'm on a jury, if I'm just thinking from a differ, from a different perspective, he's correcting it to make sure that they get the smallest awards, right. So in my mind, I'm like, oh, this guy's this guy's a stickler for details. He's telling the truth. He's

making sure that everything's right. So subliminally, subconsciously, as it goes on, I'm thinking, oh, he's telling me the truth because he's corrected the Yeah, he's he's come off as really credible, as authentic. Um as you know you believe him.

Um he was. I mean they really leaned into the drug abuse and the alcoholism his lawyers did before the defense even had a chance to bring it up, basically getting rid of that surprise factor or that sting that you know they're going to come in and say, well, he was an addict, and you know, ad ex abuse people and they block out, they don't know what they do and all of that, but they leaned into that, which made him super vulnerable and really credible, and I

think that that was that, I mean, obviously very deliberate, but like you said, you know, he also senses when they're trying to catch him in something he said before and kind of twist and minipulate his words, so instead of giving them the yes or no that they want, he sort of is like clarifying, which is really smart. Okay, so sorry, I just wanted to piggyback on something that you brought up before, which was that if you're on the jury, you're not allowed to be watching clips of

the trial online, you know, or check them out. It's almost like you're in a quarantine again. Yep. But I remember reading just maybe last week that one of Johnny's witnesses, Georgina Dooders, was dismissed from the trial because she watched clips of the trial online allegedly and because Amber Heard's

friend was watching in the courtroom. Man now she's Eve Barlow has now since been banned from the courtroom because of this um and also apparently her dramatic nature and tweeting and texting from the front row of the courtroom, which is something that usually people who are just friends of someone on trial don't really have the privilege of doing right. Um, but do you think that you know this will hurt his case? Do you think that? Um? I mean I read that it seemed like it was

going to be a blow to the case. But do you think that he'll have enough to go off of to win. Well, we don't know what her testimony was going to be, and usually the testimony is like a big piece of the puzzle, right the way they're going to tell the story. Um, it didn't hurt them that she did that, because you know, the judge even said it was kind of obvious that they didn't know. She said,

I believe you guys that you didn't know that this happened. Um, So that was okay, didn't kind of get you know, they didn't get out of the good racist of the judge. But in terms of storytelling, they're going to have to find a way to kind of connect the dots without her. Okay. Also, there is a rumor that Amber's lawyer quit. Is that true? I didn't hear that. Okay, I don't think so, because he's still the main there's two main lawyers. Um, and you're gonna love it when I hit one of them.

His name's Rotten Born. Um, and everyone like you can't when you're commenting on this and you just can't not can't make fun of that. But those are the things that you change. Yeah, does that not get change? Yeah? Yeah? I mean so yeah, that's you know, he's in a very public case and people cannot help but bring that up. But um, but those two are definitely there. They have obviously a team of lawyers, so there's a lot of people that are also there that might be, um, you know,

involved kind of behind the scenes. Um, but as far as I can tell, everyone's still there. Okay. So also, just on the note of them continually bringing up him being quote unquote a monster when he's drawn or on drugs, and that he's an addict and that you know, Elton John tried to help him get sober and he gets aggressive when he's drunk and all these different things. I thought that it was interesting that they were like, oh, when you do drugs or when you get drunk with

Marilyn Manson. It's like he gets drunk with everyone, not just Marilyn Manson. So I'm wondering do you think that they keep trying to align him with Maryland so that people's perception of him is that he is painted in a more negative light. Because okay, one, because he was I think he was convicted of abuse or play guilty too, amusing a woman too, and just he's I mean, everyone

knows he's like weird, right, no matter, just yeah. Well, I will say I was at Marilyn Manson's birthday party five years ago, six five, and Giant Up was there, Courtney Love was there, and everyone was quote unquote having a good time. So um, but I would say probably one of the more magical musical performances I've ever seen. Not that I'm sure that must have been because you don't drink, right, so that must have been quite an event for you to be there with all those heavy

party ers just watching. Well, I mean, this is like the story of my life. Okay. So so okay, Mitra, you know, we have photo and video evidence of him having bruises on his face, of her having bruises on her on her face, um, of him saying, you know, she like burst open the bathroom door and bashed his head, and you know they have a very violent relationship and

it's super intense and filled with drama. I mean, at this point, I don't know if I feel like I really can tell who's in the right or the wrong, because there's a part of me that's like, deep down, if I look into my self, do I think that Johnny Depp is just very charismatic and I love him and so I just believe him more. Um, But then again, I you know, Amber Heard did ship the bed and leave it there, so you know, a lot of questions,

but how do you think this will turn out? So I think a lot of people are sort of struggling with what you're you know, what you're describing is we love Johnny Depp. We don't want to believe that he was the aggressor here. You know, today we have testimony from a psychologist saying Amber Heard has porterline personality disorder. And you know, she's clearly from the videos and the audio that we're hearing, I mean, she's got a lot of issues too, and she's causing a lot of this.

Their own marriage counselor described them as being mutually abusive. So I think that's kind of like we recognize, you know, we either some people have been or they know people who have just been in these toxic relationships where their traumas are attracted to each other and they can't get out, like they are horrible to one another, but they love

each other. And it just sounds like that. So if there's anyone on the jury that kind of knows people like that or has been in a relationship like that, or even is just watching the evidence, is like, you, guys are both involved in this somehow, you know. So that's going to make the case really hard for him

to prove. It's so interesting because she keeps filming him when he doesn't know he's being filmed, and it's like, are you doing that because you were trying to show people the abuse because it's happened so many times, or because you are trying to trap someone and somehow catch them in a moment out of context, you know? I mean, I just yeah, So so you don't so do you feel like you know who will come out on top

in this case? I think that the jury is going to be kind of tired of hearing all this after six weeks, and they're gonna be I think there's enough there to really say that they were both involved in the abuse and there's different kinds of abuse, right, So it's not just physical. There's a lot of you know, emotional abuse and psychological abuse. I mean the kind of the stuff you hear her saying about, like why would

you or want to work with you? You know, like they they are a classy brand, like why would they want why would they want you? Like stuff like that, you know, or it's like it's super degrading and just not a healthy, healthy relationships. So I think people are going to see that and not be able to say, Okay, this was a one way thing. Do you think there's any way that she goes and testifies and just ruins

it for herself. You know, it's interesting they have, UM, they have people like like you know, people study human behavior, UM sort of watching her. She's been really good about kind of having this very stoic, like straight face, trying

not to react to too many things. But there's people that are observing her, you know, especially with the case like this, when you have millions of dollars being spent on legal fees, everyone's interpreting and analyzing everything that happens in that courtroom, from every single juror you know, to her.

And I was watching this thing. Um it was actually on air with this woman who was um like observing her microbe expressions, and there was a moment where she was expressing like contempt because just like one side of her cheek was up like you couldn't even notice it. So I think that if people, and I think people kind of feel those things like they don't realize what's happening necessarily, but that's how we kind of gauge people,

is like body language. So I think there's a lot of ways where she can she can hurt herself, and I think it's going to be an uphill battle for her just because she's going second. We've heard so much about her. Mm hmm. Okay, Tom too. Do you have any final questions or can we move on? We have a couple of moments with Mitra and I want to slide in a couple of Mike Tyson questions, a couple of eyes after hockey questions. Yeah, no, I want to

as well. Okay, awesome, Semitra. I know because we don't have that much time with you, we also just want to ask you quickly, what do you think is going to happen with the Mike Tyson incident? You know, do you see I mean, like, do you think he'll get charged for punching the other passenger even though he was the one being provoked? I think so. I mean, I think physical is a whole another level. You know, that's that's sort of you know, it's there's a separate line

for physical um, and that's that's battery. Um. And so I think there's a criminal element. There's also federal like federal laws when in the in an airplane. Um. And so there's those kinds of laws that are specific to being on board with a plane where people can't really

escape and you're you know, threatening the lives of other people. UM. So there's an issue with that, and people take that really seriously because of not only terrorism, but because of the stuff we've seen with the mask bandate and people getting kind of aggressive with flight attendants. UM. And then of course, you know, the guy that got beat up is going to sue Mike Tyson and get a lot of money. M hmm. Do you think Mike Tyson will have will be eligible to counter sue. I don't know.

I mean, I think I'll certainly try because a lot of times these things happen, things people countersuit to kind of protect their image. But it's probably something that's going to settle that we might not even hear about. Mm hmm. And do you think that this will get Mike Tyson on some sort of like no fly list or does hee kind of walk around scotfree after this? I mean this also is really interesting. Yeah, I mean this also

feels reminiscent of Will Smith and Chris Rock. It's like, even though Chris Rock didn't press any charges, Will Smith did face a lot of consequences and he's not allowed back at the OSCARS for ten years. Yeah. So with Mike Tyson, I mean, no finalists. I don't know what the rules are around that specifically, but definitely not whatever that airline was. And also Mike Tyson should be flying private anyway because he's Mike Tyson. Don't shots fired? Shots fired? Yeah?

You know what his thought when he punched the guy in the face is probably like, why am I still flying commercial? Right? How did it here? Yeah? Let me make sure I never have to fly commercial again. I know a way. I'm only one row away from a guy like this commander right, dear lord, that Mike Tyson. It's just it's weird because when you're that famous, I didn't even know you could fly commercial. How do you walk through the airport? It's rough, Yeah, it is rough.

I mean I have a lot of clients obviously who you know, are flying because the projects that they work on are not paying for private planes. They're typically paying for it for class trouble, and so they're all Most celebrities, unless they're arranging or going through something other than work, you might catch them in an airport at some point. So that's why you see people with bodyguards. I guess my cousin doesn't need a bodyguard, right hilarious is an

extra fee for being his own bodyguard, right, Yeah. So if you wanna catch a celebrity, just hang out at L a X all day you might see one. Yeah. And lastly, just real quick, so we want to ask about the asap Rocky arrest. Do you think that he knew or that we knew that this was coming when he landed back in the States after all the drama with him in Rihanna and their little vacation after the whole cheating incident. I don't think so. Um, because usually

when something like that happens, people call the cops. You know, people do something right away. Why didn't Why weren't the cops called in that moment, especially if there was an injury? Right, So, now we're months later, months down the line, which always makes the cop, the police's case a lot harder anyway, because you don't really have the evidence that you had before. You're not right there on the scene where people are

fresh with their memories. Um. So, I mean, and I also think anytime you have someone in the press living their best life and someone's like, now you're out there living your best life and you try to shoot me, No, it's a little damper on things. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, boy, I mean all right, well, Dmitri, do you have any final questions? Real quick? Is there any has there ever been in a case where you're

representing somebody and you're like, I cannot touch this. I'm not doing this for either moral reason or you and you don't have to tell us what it was. But is the one where you're just like, I'm out of here. I've I've actually had to let go of clients because I felt like they were they were the problem. Um in a lot of situations. Yeah, it was. It just kind of became clear that like, this is you. This is not right now, It's not me, it's you. Um.

But yeah, and you know, I'm really lucky. I have my own firm and I started it because I want to work with people I love and I believe in. I work with a lot of artists and um and producers who want to change the world, and there for the most part, really good people. So I kinda I'm I'm lucky to be able to sort of pass on people that that I'm like, yeah, you're not. Like. There

was one guy. Remember I can say this because he's not a client, but I just remember like the first phone call we had, he was just going like he had a temper problem. He was just kind of like it was it was bad, And I was like, I'm I can see what I'm going to be dealing with for months and no, thank you. It's really cool. Yeah, no one could pay you enough. They're just people. No one can pay be enough. Yeah, well I don't have a law degree, but you could pay me enough to

do nothing for you. Mitro, will you wrap me? You're so cool? I love it. I love comedians. I have a couple of comedian clients and you guys, you guys are awesome. Oh my god, Well we could talk offline about that, but are you planning crimes? I mean you know me? Yeah, Mitra, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for bringing your expertise, your insight, and your humor today to the podcast. We appreciate you so much.

And is there anything you want the audience to know or if you want them to follow you online or anything like that? Um My Instagram and Twitter Metra e s Q, so if you want to follow me there. I also do a lot of analysis on the Johnny Depp case like on TV, so I post that stuff. Um, if you want to follow that more then yeah? Would you rather represent Johnny or Amber? God? I mean, come on,

no brainer. Johnny Depp who want to be working with every single day and like you know, for months and months. So yeahing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You are amazing and we so appreciate your insights today than anytime. Guys, be careful what you wish for.

You know, my favorite part of the Amber heard Johnny Depp trial is listening to him how oh like you know she threw a bottle at his finger and the tip cut off, and then he mixed you with blood and pain and then started like drawing on the walls

penis and then then like I love you. Hey, whatever right because it doesn't no, But I'm like this sounds like some Billy Bob Thornton, Angelina Jolie bullshit where they're like, we're having vials of blood with each other's names on them and a piece of rice and the necklace and I threw it in the backyard and now it doesn't know where it is. And then when you look up what happened. Billy Bob Thornton and Amber Heard were shooting a movie together, and that is what calls the drama.

And I'm like, see, I knew it. Billy Bobb is somehow Billy Bob is the problem. Why isn't he testifying? Yeah, alright, guys, I think let's take a little quick break before we bring on our next guests. What do you think? Dmitri agree? I love that for us, guys, don't commit any crimes. See in a minute. Hey, hello everyone, and welcome back to Real Time Crime. I'm your host Lee Lamar, and I have with me sometimes Dmitri what's up. Wow. Dmitri is thrilled to be here today. I just want to

get to the next guest. I'm excited. Okay, okay. Our next guests are Ben Crompton and Alex where So. So. They're both producers on this new incredible show called ABC's Who Do You Believe, which comes out May third. That's

when it airs. Okay, So, Who Do You Believe is a new series that features simultaneous storytelling to take viewers through compelling true crime cases from dual perspectives, and in each episode, the audience steps into the shoes of two contrasting narratives to hear the recounts directly from the victims and criminals with never before revealed details. Then the viewer plays armchair detective to deduce and piece together different versions of the truth. This sounds almost like a comedy, but

it's not. This is real, okay, So, because we all know that there are always two sides to every story, and there's no telling how far one would go for

their marriage, child, their way of life. Within this unique storytelling format, every episode culminates by revealing key details from the adjudicated cases, leaving you to question, who do you Believe and it's being produced by Line Pictures and in association with Walt Disney and and Ben Crompton is one of the executive producers, and Alex Wereso is the showrunner and EPs, and we have them both with us here today and I'm really excited to chat with them. Hello,

how are you, Alex? I'm fantastic And I think Ben, Hello, Ben, Oh my gosh, nice to meet you. Very nice to meet that accent. Okay, so, gentlemen, we've already introduced you, so we're going to go right into it because we're so excited to hear more about who do you believe and about your careers in general. And for those who may not be as familiar with you both, can you tell us a little bit about how you got excited about the true crime genre? M M yeah, I mean

it's a good question. I think truth crime is is a really exciting space and has been for the last decade right on all platforms. And what I think we particularly liked it at Lime when we were looking at the genres as with the development team, was like, we

love stories. When we were really trying to put ourselves into people's heads, not necessarily in you know, interested in the the facts or the intricacies of the evidence, but more like how how these people went through their experiences, like what was actually going through their head when something crazy happens or something bad happens, and you know, how did they rationalize what was happening and then also how did they experience it versus how the other side experienced it.

So we love true crying, but I think we felt like we really wanted to get inside people's heads more than what we're finding on on you know, lots of shows that were involved in um so that's what kind of led to the development of this show. That's how we kind of started the process on it. We wanted to actually speak to people on both sides of a crime and find out what what their experiences was in full,

without being influenced by what the verdict was. I think that's that's brilliant because um, well, everybody wants to play arms to our quarterback, but it's brilliant to to bring up both sides. Because we were just talking about the Johnny Depp and for heard thing and people said, oh, you know, people have many have said, oh, they're both at fault, they're both crazy and they're both this, but what it's what's interesting is to sit there and look at Okay, well, yes they both did this, but did

this happen first? And then you gotta put yourself in their shoes. If this was happening to me, how would I react? Would I then do something crazy? Because you're just so it's it's interesting to see how things unfold and look at it that way. So I think that's a great idea, and that's kind of what our show is too. But putting those two perspective side by side.

So when Johnny Depp makes an accusation about what happened that one night, we then play Amber heard right up against him and she responds exactly, and we do them separately.

All our interviews are done separately. But I don't know if you've had a chance to to look at the show, but we had this device where all of our master wide shots they kind of make up a half of a room, so symmetrically, when you piece them together, looks like they're in the same room, which creates this interesting effect of having them in the same room but they're not. But you get these outsized reactions, you know, as if the other person wasn't listening to them, but for the

audience subconsciously, it kind of puts them together. And I like playing with with that device. Um and I think that's kind of what's going on in a lot of these criminal cases. And you know, who do you actually believe is at the root of what you're thinking? But we're bringing that in the forefront and kind of simplifying the format. Two, it's not you know, detectives with cops and this and that. It's two voices primarily for most of these episodes, and it's just their opinions, and it's

bringing their sides of the story to life. Um. And we have dual perspective p o vs in recreation that we're playing around. Split screen is as well. UM. So the split screen thing is is imperative to our show and um kind of takes from that those court trial

things you know. Um yeah, scream scenes very metaverse. But okay, So has there been anything that has surprised you about the show, anything that you learned you you thought you might not, for example, where you actually decided that you really were citing with the criminal instead of the victim, or are all these cases very um equally matched in a sense or does it feel like there are some that are very lops We tried to make them all equally matched, and that was one of the criteria for

picking a story. You know, can I actually believe this person? If somebody's story was so unbelievable or they didn't believe in their own story, they did not make the cut for our show. Um, that was very important that you actually could go along for that ride. You know, in one act you're believing that Charity is correct, and the next act you're like, oh, now she's a liar. It's definitely Marcus who's telling the truth. And I love going

back and forth, right what kind of crimes? It properly pinballs back and forth, And that's what we willed to really play with. And it's also not just who you believe, it's also who do you relate to the most? And who's who's a response to a certain situation, did you did you understand the most? I think viewers go on a real journey in there. It's not just their allegiances tested as they try to decide who is right and wrong. You know that it is their allegiance, you know, tested

as to who they like the most. At certain scenarios and and whose head they can get in the most. So you know, it's it's been fascinating. It is a proper journey, and it does feel completely different and unexpected pre each episode. And what types of primes do you feature? Lots of different times. I don't want to tell you all of them, but some of them are more domestic disputes. I don't want to give away the endings. There are a good share of murders, but nothing's too like gruesome.

A good share of murders, good share of murders. You know, we're aiming for like fifty umme party. But it's it's ABC prime time, you know, so we don't want to get to too gory to you heavy you know. Um, I'm not saying that murder is not heavy. It's always pretty heavy. Um what else can I say? There's a conservatorship battle in episode to all of the um Britney

Spears case. This one is with Michelle Nichols, who was the first African American UM actress on Star Trek the original series with Robert Chattner, Robert Chatner, Richard what's his name, Willie chat Robber or somebody else. Yeah, Um, so there's

a conservator ship. Um, a couple of murders. I don't want to give away the first one, I think, I think, I mean what the reason why we don't want to give anything away is the kind of whole point of this show is we want everything to be reset at the top of the episode and you meet two parties, and then over the course of that episode, the story will unfold and your legences will be tested, and you know,

we really do want it to feel unexpected. And you know, is that it's saying we do explore murder from two sides. We explore conservative ship, we have some theft in there, we have some interesting black moil for us. It's a really interesting way to kind of fit different crime and crime adjacent stories into this format framework and see how

it pays out. Do you struggle at all putting that together? So, for instance, like a lawyer would say, I'm a public defending I'm defending this person, but in their head they

know they're guilty. Do you have trouble putting these together and maybe thinking I'm gonna make this person look too good or I don't want them to look as good because they're clearly the ones obviously you're trying to go down the middle because you want people to to kind of, you know, like you said, play armature quarterback and make their own decisions. But do you struggle with that and

putting it together? A do, And it's something we get a lot of development on before we got to the stage of pitching it actually, because you know, there are many shades are right or wrong. Clearly some people are right and some people are wrong, but we're not we're not cast as versions on that. When we're not as producers pointing out what is right right and what is wrong, we are allowing them to air their truth, the truth that they experienced it, how they experienced it, and eventually

the truth, the truth will catch up with them. And you know, in the later part of the episodes, we have the verdict and we have the you know, the results of the adjudication. So you know, we're not really were What we really want to explore is that people's own perspectives and logical experiences, they skew their own version of the truth, but that's their version of the truth. You know, they fully believe that, and then it's down to the viewers to deduce whether they believe any part

of that. Really, it's down to them. I have a million more questions, right, but I mean I want to ask you more about true crime, obviously, but I just want to quickly pivot and ask a very selfish question. Um, Alex, I know that you were an EP and showrunner on Lea Remini Scientology in the Aftermath Soil series. I'm wondering where did you guys receive any threats from Scientology? Um? A lot of letters, Um, a lot of letters telling us not to But did I I never myself felt

physically threatened. Um. There was a couple occasions where there may have been somebody outside of my house and going through my trash and things like that, but UM, you know, nothing, nothing too intense of what some of those people on that show have experienced. The amount of fair game that Scientology has opposed on these people is brutal when ripped those families apart. So I'm very grateful that none of that has happened to me and they haven't come after

me full force. But it was the original showrunner on that show, and yeah, it was a it was a tough decision. One season was was enough for me. Um. They didn't, you know, make an attack page attacking me? Thankfully knock on wood, there's still time. Um. Yeah, I

was kind of putty. Would you be hesitant there? I was in a bunch of that that first season, and they were kind of following us around and they would show up at airports when we were there and they'd have the p I s waiting for us, and you know, they would a lot of It's just intimidation, but not a lot of bite behind the park. Would you be hesitant to do something like that again? Yeah, I feel like I've already done that. I have a family now, and I feel like I escaped unscathed, and I think

that's a good thing. Um, I've done that. I've told those stories to tell other stories, but my heart is still with those those victims. Wow. Okay, well we won't press too much on that and we'll just pivot real fast, Ben Alex, do you guys have a favorite true crime story? And I put favorite in air quotes because it's like, you know, how can you have a favorite story about murder? But do you have a case that you are super passionate about or something that really threw you into true

crime in the first place. Mmm, I notice. I mean the lead remedy thing is what kind of got me in that space, and it's kind of true crime adjacent. I had never done true crime before. I did more kind of British experimental social experiment shows like Undercover Boss and Wife Swap, more more formatted kind of stuff. Um, but I always wanted to do more serious stuff. I mean, I saw that Alex give Me Going Clear thing and

it seemed like a incredible new world to discover. And that's that's one of my favorite parts about producing, is just learning about new world and immersing yourself in that. And true crime offers a lot of that. You know, um, people from all different kinds of socio economic backgrounds, and to get to know those people in their circumstances and tell their stories is an interesting part for me. But now there's no one that really sticks out. I guess

the Natalie Holloway case. I did a series on Natalie Holloway when Oxygen first launched into true crime, and I got to know they've all the way pretty well, spent a year with him as he searched for his daughter, so that one kind of emotionally unattached to Ben. Do you know what I'm I'm less of a true crime fanatic in the sense that I you know, I don't track stories. I watch good great docks. You know, I love the stuff that raw do. I love in The Swindler.

You know, I love going back to the Impostor, which is like a decade ago. You know, I love a great version of storytelling. Um, you know, true crime story. I mean, I'm I'm raptured by all of the stories that everyone else are talking about. I've been watching a hell of a lot of Johnny Depp and versus Amber Heard. I find it just fascinating and kind of you know, um interesting, how he is enacting himself and court and how that process is all working out. But you know,

I'm really drawn. I what I really like is that the way that the production community are telling true crime stories and the way that they're telling them. So I'm a big fan more of the format behind a lot of that. You know. What I find is maddening is um which is nice that you guys are doing this with your show and showing different things, but stuff like

the the just laying Maxwell because Ley Maxwell and stuff. No, there's no cameras, isn't We're just left out here to speculate what's happening, right, Johnny Depp and never heard we're

getting full on, like all this stuff. It's maddening that there's stuff that's not not to put one crime over another, but one of them, in my opinion, is more serious because it affects a lot of people, that affects children as underage, and yet we we can't know and I understand that that's part of that, but we don't know enough about what's going on, and it just kind of fades away. But this Johnny Depp, we're getting six weeks straight up of a bad marriage. Yeah. I'm starting to

think there's a merged store outside the courtroom. Yeah. I also think, you know, so much of it is about the process of court. So much of it is just an answer to, uh, you know, a defense question. It doesn't I'm not really I'm getting snippets of responsive. I'm not really able to build a full picture. And you know, it kind of goes back to what I like about some great crime docs and what we're trying to do with our show as well. There's like I want to

hear the full story. I don't want to keep being interrupted by a lawyer saying, let's hearsay, you know, just let me just hear it, let me understand it and get inside their head and what they experienced. Um. And I also think it's it's more accessible to the Johnny Depp amber heard stuff even have you know, domestic violence is and a like subject, But compared to the um Giselle Maxwell stuff, that stuff gets really dark and really

heavy and that stuff. You know, I don't know how much time you can emotionally invest in that kind of stuff day after day, you know. In being producing a lot of true crime stuff, it wears on you. I don't know if anybody talks about that, but it's it's hard to to shake some of these stories when you come home and you want something a little bit lighter. So I think most people that I know who actually make true crime don't like to watch it when they

go home. Um, it's it's it's a lot so that stuff, like what you too, It's just it's more entertainment, you know. And I think our show kind of falls in that line to where, yeah, it's it's still murder and stuff, but it's not as intense, all encompassing. I can't go to sleep that night, you know, Yeah, what do you do when you go home? Like, if you've had a long day of producing something that's super heavy and and you feel so you said you'd like to kind of

move away from it. What do you do when you go home? Do you watch a certain show? Do you what do you do to kind of get that feel kiss off of you to spend some of your kiss my little baby girl. And that's what I do. I spend time with my family and try not to think or discuss work and stuff. My wife also works in the business, because she's always interested about what I'm doing. But the last thing I want to do sometimes is is talking about murder again when I've been talking about

it all day long. Um, so funny, I'm the opposite. But I also don't have a family or anyone who loves me here, so it doesn't really matter. It's just me talking to me, So she's just talking about murder, whether someone's in the room or not. It's basically where that comes down to. Yeah, and Ben, do you have a routine for watching selling Sunset? I do have a lovely family, and I kissed them on the foreheads as well, and then I watched Selling sunset for maybe an hour.

And that's my that's my general's fisher. We we produce a lot of reality as well a lot of entertainment format. So luckily I'm not one buried in the true crime world. Um, and so I have other events, which is great, and a family. Yeah, so if you guys could bring up your families one more time. Yeah, hey you guys, I'm married, I have four kids, so yeah, alright, alright, guys, I got it. Okay, But as soon as we're done here, I'm gonna go kiss my kids and you know, tell

him I love you. So but Leah's going to a visa, so don't don't make it seem like she doesn't have anything going on. She's going to Europe for like a month. Oh I know. Well because they don't have a family, so yeah, um, you know the trade offs. But okay, So your show airs on May third on ABC. It's

called Who Do You Believe? And do either of you have anything you want to share about the show that we may not have covered, or anything that might surprise viewers or excite them that we didn't get to talk about today, or anything anything any final notes about the show. I think every every episode is different. You know, every episode there's one special two part of but every every episode is its own true crime story or dispute um.

You know, it is told from the two central perspectives involved, and it's fascinating and we can't wait to hear what people think about it. You know what. I like the idea that debates will continue after they have watched the episode. You know, people will still have questions after they've seen the verdict and after they've heard both sides um. The other thing I will say is that it's incredibly brave for both sides to, you know, appear on something like this.

We found from responses from the been involved that it's also a really cathartic experience for them. Is they're able to fully air their perspective and get a right to apply to some of those opposing, contrasting perspectives that they didn't get a chance to do before. So I think I'll be interested to hear what they think. That's one of the most challenging parts of actually getting people to

participate in the show. We're up front that the other side is going to have their equal airing, and oftentimes this is their mortal enemy in life and knowing that they're going to have the rights to reply scares a lot of people away and they don't want the other side to have their opinion aired. So that's been a challenge with the people, to de Ben's point who have agreed to do it, have been been brave and I feel like we're we're giving them each a fair shakes

as much as we can. Yeah, I can see that, and I can see that. Do you have problems with lawyers wanting stuff out? No? No, yeah, um, but so but you what you're saying about in the courtroom, you were saying that, you know, you're always being interrupted and there is here say that. But that's they've got to feel good about that, because that's gotta be frustrating for them as well when they understand, oh I didn't say correctly, oh this person so they can just sit down and

tell their side of the story. So I can see how there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes to corroborate, you know, the things that they're saying, and in legal documents and in other ways. Um, but yeah, there are certainly as any true crunch, there's lots of

legal landlines to navigate through. Yeah, but you're right though, it's that and it's not just went that what went down in court, it's also you know, how the case was reported, and you know what their family or their community that the kind of the nuggets of the case that they've held onto that they want to finally have a chance to kind of rebuff or they want to have a chance to respond to something that's kind of

been a shadow over them for a long time. So it is it isn't you know, fascinating to see how their story has evolved and how good they feel after they've been able to fully air in. Can I just say Legal land Mines is the best name for show for lawyers who've had difficult cases, Alex, I mean, I'd love to come on as a creative story producer. Just let me know I'm available for hire, And I will say, also, Ben, you know, I noticed that you were one of the

EPs on Ease Dating No Filter. If you haven't noticed, I don't have a family, I'm very lonely and I have no filter. So if there's a season to just let me know. We cast like it was really fun, you know, having a comedic commentary on top of dates dates always funny, you know. So yeah, it's a very different show to this, but they're funny when you're married and have a family. That's all I'll say. Dating is no longer fun. I'm not having fun. No one's having fun.

Are you think? I love how I've convinced three men that I'm not? Okay? All right, Um, gentlemen, this has been such an honor, unemploy sure having you here today. I guess I just want to give you both the floor for any final thoughts that you may have or anything you want to share with the audience or where we can find you on the internet. Yeah, Internet that We want as many true crime fans to watch it

as possible. ABC have been just wonderful partners of this, you know, really are benchmark raising and you know exciting home for True Crime on on Hulu as well. So um, yeah, we're excited to see how it how it pans out and let us know what you're thinking. Thank you, thank you for the time. I appreciate it, Thank you. I'm

so excited to watch the show. This is a really novel idea and both of you have worked on such a wide gamut of genres and all the shows you worked on have been super successful, so I don't doubt that this will be just another hit for both of you. Very excited to watch it. So that's May third on ABC. Who do you Believe? And you know we're gonna be talking about it, so make sure you watch it. Yeah, brilliant. We look forward to that. Yeah, thanks guys, having thank you,

And then there were two there. It is. That's the tough thing about guests is when they leave, then there's that that's silence in the house. Yeah. See when guests usually leave my house, I'm like, thank god, now I can fart. You're not doing that now though, right M. I like those guys. I loved every guest we had today. Every guest we had today was x Yeah. I felt bad when um when Ben said that he had a family, because I know it's a little twinkle in your eye.

When he first came on, You're like, oh, I'd like to welcome your accent and your handsome face. Hello. Yes, Alex is here too, Hello, Ben, tell me about yourself. I don't know what made you think that I would like to go adithan Acentum. That was Australian by the way. Okay, you guys please DM me at Leo lamar l e A H l A m A r R. You already know this. Let me know if you think Amber Heard will win the trial or Johnny Depp. Also, we're going to post a clip, so just post on the clip,

post on the reel. I want to know who you think is going to win this trial. And as always, call in live baby, leave us a voice smail if you've got a hot tip for us, or if there's a case you think that we should be looking into, or a bit of information that we didn't know, let us know. It is an open forum calling it eight that's eight six six twenty one crimes. Normally there's someone eight six six two two seven four six three. Al Right,

social sleuths, I love you very much. I'll see you from across the world next week, and stay safe, don't commit any crimes as usual. Love you very much. Bye bye. It's real time gra real time gro I mean, is it actually real time crime when I'm solving anything or is that just the thing we say, it's a thing we say, got it? Okay, see you next week for more real time crime only on I Heart Radio.