Robert Durst and Secrets in a Peanut Butter Sandwich

it's it's not fun. It doesn't feel fun. It feels very hot and not in the sexy fun way. But it's making your face look very glowy. That's it's giving you good. It's giving you a good glow, a natural glow. Dmitri, did we hear you laugh? Did we say you could? Are you allowed to speak on this podcast? Producers? Dmitri? Hello, Dmitri Hello. Here's the thing I said. I would speak very minimally, but I'm not allowed to mute. And if you guys are gonna sit there like saying stuff like that,

I'm gonna laugh. I'll muffle it as much as I can, but this is gonna happen, I'm sorry. We were talking about the beautiful glow I have on my face for my trench coat. Thank you. I thought it was funny that you got this trench coat to look you know, inspectory, and now you're super uncomfortable and I don't know, I gotta kick out of that. Yeah, this isn't quite the right fit for me. You know, I thought crime, but make it fashion. But Zara doesn't know how to do crime.

Well what we do, which is why we need to get to business, guys. And I have to start by saying thank you to one of our listeners who sent me a d M about the Gabby Potito case, which of course there's been some updates, but also not any more information on find finding Brian. But something we didn't think about. Remember the last text that she was sending about stand where where I was saying maybe Brian was

sending the stand text. Somebody named Justine sent me a d M and said, maybe it wasn't about someone named Stan. Maybe stand meant text, uh send in send the authorities. Now I just got the chills down my spine. Is that a known entity? I don't know. I just got I was just going through my damns when I was, because you guys were a couple of minutes later just saying and I wasn't late. I don't know. I clocked in at so I wouldn't. He didn't click in until

even thirty one, So whoever, maybe three? But Dmitri, you want Teddy to think I'm late? Guys, that was totally my fault. You know, I couldn't. Don't thank you. Thank you for taking the blame on this, Dmitri. But Teddy, Okay, So is stand actually is this something that is common practice? Because I don't know, it seems that's I like this theory. I mean, I don't like it, but it's an interesting theory. However, if she was really in help, don't you think she

would just be more direct about it? I mean, may she maybe she was scared he would look at her phone? I mean, didn't he end up with her phone? That's interesting. That's that's such a that's such a detailed thing. Like unless somebody knew this is a code and knew what Like, there's no way someone's going to see that and be like oh s t a n oh, that's probably send the authorities now, Like, unless they had a code set

up to know about. I think that's I appreciate the input from from Justine, but that seems a little far faster me. It's very creative and insightful and possibly true. However, it is also odd that her grandfather's name is Stan. Very true, but I did have to say because it's something that we did miss. It is a coincidence, and we did miss it. But I also just want to just for the listeners, go back for three seconds and

talk about the last podcast that we had. During the taping of our podcast, we got the news of her autopsy and the results of her death, which we found out with strangulation and throttling. But they haven't yet identified any additional information. Well, they might have, but they didn't clue us into that, for example, whether or not she was under the ground or above the ground, if there was any DNA evidence on her body. So we don't have any of that information just yet. But we have

been clued into the cause of death. We already knew it was homicide, but we didn't have that additional information.

So I just wanted to use that as a springboard to move forward with the Gabby Petito case and new information that we have and later on in the episode, we are going to actually have on a private detective who is going to answer so many questions that I think will help us decipher some of the things that we are so you know, lost on as just individuals trying to decipher the case, like all of the other slutes out there, wanting to understand what Brian is doing.

Like something that I was thinking about. I was watching the sixty Minutes Australia that um Gabby's parents and stepfather Diad was do innocent people run ever? And I think we heard innocent people don't run? Right. It's interesting because I don't want to parlay this away from this case because we have so much to talk about, and I know with our private investigator, Jeff McGrath, we will go

in depth into detail. But this is also tying into Robert Durst, who's now back in the media, because innocent people don't run is a very interesting concept because we both know that he ran and was claiming his innocence, but of course he has now been convicted of murder of his best friends in Berman and life in jail without parole. However, he's now on a ventilator in the

hospital with COVID nineteen. I want to just tell you right now, I'm holding my tongue and don't you dare I mean here, you're here, this is that's what this is for. I mean, you know, I just I have so many thoughts about it. Am I allowed to completely derail from Gabby Petito at the moment and swing over to Robert Durst or well? I mean I think first off,

he wasn't wearing his mask correctly in court. Well, he kept taking it off and putting it back on, apparently, And I think it's probably because he was having trouble breathing. And I think a lot of the people closest to him have been taking COVID tests making sure that they're negative, and canceled their personal travel plans as well. From what I've read on the news. Did I just say news on the new was oh my in nineteen forties detective Um? But yeah, thank you. I'm honestly I am. I am

boiling in here. This was a poor choice. I just want to let everyone know that I didn't make a mistake this morning. I mean, can you not to stop in derail here? But can you just take it off? That's not like a Dickie underneath right, like, that's a did you just ask me to take my trench cod? Now? Now we're getting all kinds hr hr. I just meant if it meant you would be more comfortable. Oh my god, this is getting work ahead here. Can we cut this out? No?

Keep it in. It's hilarious but also okay, also ill, I think it's important for me to make note of the fact that there is a lot of comedy in tragedy, and there's a time and a place for comedy. I'm a comedian and we all know that, and so sometimes the way that I deal with uncomfortable information is to make jokes about it. But there's nothing funny about murder, and I don't think that it works for me to

make jokes about that. And I'm a human being, um, and I feel for all the people that have passed. But I'd like to just make a note of the fact that the things and elements surrounding cases. I like to add moments of levity for my heart and my brain because that's how I process pain and trauma. And if you ever watch my stand up, you will also see that it's basically me just punching down on myself, so I just I just make fun of myself mercilessly. And oh boy, if you've ever dated me, I'm so sorry.

But that's a warning to all the men out there. Now. I'd like to go back into quickly talking about Robert Durst again, so you also don't want to date him because he also, I mean, he did murder his millionaire I know, well, allegedly he he has not been convicted of murdering his ex wife yet she is missing and

she has never been found. He was convicted recently of murdering Susan Berman, his best friend, and allegedly because she was going to meet with the press over details of that, she may or may not have known what happened to his ex wife. And then she mysteriously went, um, no, she didn't go missing. She was just flat up murdered.

And she was she was shot execution style in the back of the head, and there were no signs of forced entry, which means that it was a friend or someone she knew that she welcomed into her home and then she was shot execution style on the back of

the head. And so Teddy, I know you watched Jinks, of course, and I and what they are implying on the show on the documentary was she was also having Susan Burman was also having money trouble and it was something that was be above her too potentially or allegedly blackmail someone by saying, if you don't pay me, I am going to come forward with this information. So in the documentary they had said that could potentially had been

the cause of why this ended up happening. It's also interesting because Robert gave her I think over a hundred thousand dollars, especially close to the last few months of her life, and I know that he was going to visit her for the holidays, which she apparently was super excited about. And the documentary gave me chills for a number of reasons. Obviously for anyone who's watched all the

way to the end. Uh no spoilers, but to spoil he says, I killed them all when his mike still hot and he's in the bathroom also listening to the man nearly vomit and p and talk about his burping while he's realizing he got got from his handwriting and the block letters and the misspelling of the word Beverly on the letters. I mean, it was a little much for me, to be honest. I was like, we're too close and personal with this man. Couldn't they have edited

out the farting and the burping? No, And I mean it for anyone that doesn't know what when the mike's hot, the mike the mike hot doesn't mean it's like warm on you, the mike hot mean yeah. Like I didn't know about the mike hot until I personally was on a reality television show, and like I thought, if there wasn't a camera like facing me at the moment that I was, I was done. I was like, in the in the clear. No, if there is a mike pack on you, you are. Anything you say can and will

be held against you. And it's what's so ironic is that the comedy club that I created on a house is called hot on the mic. And it's two fold. It's a double entendre because everyone who does called me there is sexy, okay, but then also he hates he can't he can't even look at me. And then the other reason is because comedians there are doing crowd work left and right, and you're just going there's no way

to just turn your mic off. And stop talking. Anything that you say could be recorded at any time, and usually everything is hilarious, So, you know, I think that that's really interesting. Obviously what Robert or says is not hilarious, but I think it's interesting that there was some foreshadowing before that final moment where he's they take a break

during the interview. Do you remember this, Teddy? They take a break and he starts talking and and saying out loud to himself when he thinks that the mic is off because he's not. He doesn't realize that that you actually have to turn the mic pack off manually basically, and he just starts talking to himself. He's like, intentionally, did I intentionally lie? No, no, one didn't. You didn't

intentionally lie. You could leave things out. And his lawyer comes over to him and it's like, your mike is hot. We we just heard everything you said. Oh yeah, because he you you know, you can tell that he's actually trying to prep himself on what he's going to say in the next interview piece like you do that in any interview if you're like about to join an interview. The problem is his mike was on, he's being recorded and he's doing it about murder. The thing is that

it's very clear he's hyper intelligent. He's an extremely smart man. Obviously he has gotten away allegedly with multiple murders until recently. And I mean he's very again also, I mean, if you've got an endless pot of money, there's some money at the problem, make it go away. He had, you know, a hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of um fees that he sent towards lawyers, originally just to get the two best lawyers on the case to help him get

out of the Morris Black murder. I mean, I think it was more than I was a hundred and fifty thousand or well was his bail. And then but also he won because his current was either fiance or wife. I'm not and I actually love her. She can I just say that she's your sassy New Yorker. Great. I was like, is that me in twenty years from now? Well, now you be married to a serial killer. But she she was just so straightforward. She was you can tell

she's very concerned about the money. She's very concerned. She is really rapped. She's upset that he wasn't a part of the business. She doesn't even care about the murder situation. She's like, anyways, I'm upset that you weren't a part of the business. That your brothers pu you out. Like She's like, this is why we need the top lawyers, because we need your hand more in the money. Well.

She also she also told him that she would divorce him if he didn't get rid of his first lawyer because the first lawyer wanted him to plead insanity and if you played insanity, then they would get in control of all of the money, and that she wouldn't get any of the money. Yeah, she she had a you know, she saw dollar signs all of the time. And all I'm saying is smart woman. But he had very Oh yeah, no, you're right. How do how do you could write a book how to marry a serial killer? But an alleged

serial killer? But his patience level is not hot because even when he was talking about his first wife, Kathy, and he was talking about her mother and he was talking I mean, granted, we all have mother in laws, they could be a little bit tricky, but he was like this talking about how Kathy would get bummed or

the mom would get bummed. Because he couldn't talk to her, and he was like, she would read these magazines, and then he would start blinking away, and then he'd be like, and I don't care, you know, I couldn't be bothered. I don't want to talk about her magazines. And you're just sitting there and you're like, you couldn't give her

two minutes. You couldn't give two minutes of time. It's interesting because I think that the documentary at first kind of humanizes him a little bit, and you can see the way, in my opinion, the interviewer starts to build this rapport with him, which by the end of the series you can see that he also is kind of bummed that he finally realizes that he is a murderer. And I think he truly wanted to believe that it wasn't so, and that he was kind of painted um incorrectly.

But it's really hard every time I listened to any of the conversations he has, it's really hard to see a serial killer as someone who is every conversation with the words bye bye. And I don't know how that's possible to make him look innocent or nice or kind, But the way that he carries himself, and the way that he made an entire jury laugh during his trial

against the murder of Morris Black. Lets you know that it probably was difficult for him to be nailed down as a murderer because there's something about him that is so charming and it's probably the reason why he survived as long without getting taken down. But I think also something I want to ask um, I want to ask Jeff about is his mother's suicide and what that plays into what you turn into, Like was are you born this way or is this something that after seeing such

a traumatic event that it you become teddy? Another great point you brought up. You're still good with these details, Okay.

So something that I found interesting was that him and Susan Berman bonded immediately because they both had parents died at an early age, and Susan's dad was in the mob, and you know, she was a self proclaimed mafia princess, and so you know, they actually originally thought that her death was by mob because the execution style hit is very mafia like, right, Um, until you know they realized

it was Robert. But I think that in this case, the fact that both of them had parents died from an early age, and that Robert witnessed his mother's suicide.

There's an impact that it has on young children where it creates personality disorders, and whether it's borderline personality, narcissist, narcissistic personality, psychopathy, socio path tendencies, there are different ways in which this starts to manifest in young children, and so a lot of it's almost as if when you when you read about narcissism that children who have narcissistic traits are usually because they were either ill parented as children or had a lack of a parent growing up,

and it's childhood abuses essentially also and and blocking out certain memories. But also not only did she commit suicide, he also had to live a lie because it came forward like they announced it as that she fell. Yeah, so he's now covering up as a child. Not only are you forced to live that you saw your mother commit suicide, you now are living a live for your for your entire family that that's not what happened. And historically,

the sickness is in the secrets. And I think it feels like he spent his entire lifetime just not trying to get justice for it in a way, because I think that for him, he felt probably so slighted and was probably never felt seen or heard, and was denied the experience of grief and trauma. And so I mean, not deny the experience of trauma, just denied the experience of grief. And so I don't know if he lacked empathy growing up because he didn't know how to grieve

or wasn't allowed to grieve. I mean, also, God, sorry, I'm a rambles city today, But I also remember hearing in the documentary about how how he went to his mother's funeral and he didn't quite understand what was happening, and they said, you know, mommy is always going to be with you, and he goes, wait, mommy's in the box. Why is mommy going in the ground, and try to stop the guy from lowering the casket into the ground.

That's so traumatic, And especially if they never got him any help afterwards and anyone to talk to or and and I don't know what the situation how it was different for his siblings, because in the documentary they don't say anything if like the dad brought any of the other siblings out to watch that, or if it was only him. I also think it kind of robs you

of a childhood in a way. Of course this isn't my personal opinion, but when you were forced to be a secret keeper a k and adult from an early age and you're allowed to speak your truth or seek your truth, I think that there's a um, a disconnect in your brain. And I think that he missed out on. I think it stones your growth emotionally, and so you kind of are just living as an adult, but in

the emotional brain of a child essentially. And and something that ties these two cases together, actually the Robert Durst in the Gabby Potito cases also um the domestic abuse because in both cases and and Robert Durst kind of kept dismissing it. Actually he kept saying, you know, it wasn't it wasn't It wasn't like I hit her. I was just like shoving and slapping, Like that's nobody Like he just kept saying it. It's like, oh, well, no, that wasn't a big fight. That was just just shoving

and slapping fight. Yes, So so what she fell to the floor, It's like, yeah, like it was this and and and when you watched Gabby talk about it. She was like, well, no, it wasn't. He didn't really hit me. He just you know, pinched my face or you know whatever it was. But it's it's always when it's it's just it's just you know, that's when you know uses for it. Yeah, I remember. God, It's like, there are

one thousand details I want to go into. And there's also something to be said about the fact that again both Brian and Robert ran. The only difference is that Robert was hiding in plain sight and he was dressing as a woman in disguise in Galveston, Texas before he uh allegedly well before there was self defense and um along with the killing of Morris Black or so it

was ruled. But I think they're looking into that again because he then uh eviscerated his body and put them in bags and threw them in a body of water. So I think that's something that they're revisiting well, and which brings me to the next question. When when I was doing all of this research for Today, something that kept coming up when I was researching serial killers was if somebody has killed multiple people but they do it in order to protect their freedom, are they considered serial

killers versus somebody that kills because they get off on killing. Yeah, I think they're both serial killers. It's just a different theme as to why they're doing it. But if you're killing multiple people, it's just you know, just getting rid of them whenever you feel like it. I think you

have to fall onto that thing under that category. My think Robert Durst killed because he was a stone called killer or allegedly or do you think that he killed because he just wanted to protect his from getting put in jail? Like when I think about Brian Laundry, I think he had rage always. Well, it seems like Brian

and Robert had that in common. And if Cathy, whose body has never been found to this day, so if her disappearance was actually a murder, right, and perhaps it was something similar to the Gabby Bryan situation, where is a passion of crime, a strangulation and then you know, maybe he freaked out, buried her, whatever he did to

the body, it's never been found. And then the fact that Susan Berman just randomly was murdered when she was about to speak to the police and cooperate with authorities, it doesn't seem like he's killing because um that that to me just shows that he is refusing to Yeah,

he's refusing to take accountability. Also, I just want to let everyone know not only do I not have a sociology or psychology degree, but these are just my thoughts and opinions, and I'm probably wrong, thank you on on half of the things I'm saying, Just to be clear, I think legally you didn't have to throw in that you're probably wrong. But all the alleged leads is nice. It's a nice We're just trying to sound smart. Here

is it working? Dmitri? I think I think all of this is obviously speculation, and you know, we're all doing our best to figure out what it is that makes people taking it. And something that I think that we that I want to dig into, especially once we get him on, is why everybody has been so closed? Why why the FBI has been so closed? You know, everything's been so kept quiet, especially when Gabby's body was found one day after a YouTuber showed where the van was.

The van was shown on a Saturday, and Gabby's body was found on a Sunday the day after, And so is the question, why are they not filling us in more of the details. Yeah, if we could help not we not me, but if if people could help Listen, the more he's gone and hiding, he's not going to come out and be like, oh, I was just camping. What happened? To fill me in? Like, obviously we all have our own opinions. I don't think there's many people out there that that think he's not responsible for this,

and we don't know whether he is or not. But I think everybody feels that way. And so the longer he's gone, the more at his points to that. So it's like, where does this end? To your point? Leah also that it was interesting that they said strangulation by human. They made a note of that, and I was like, what are the other strangulation by snake by? I think it was just such an By the way, according to Jammi Lavada, you can't say alien anymore. Oh, you're right,

I'm Demi's going to cancel me. I know it's very offensive to the extraterrestrials. Is that word offensive? It should be because it's extra. You're not even calling them right now, You're saying extra like they're not needed. It's also extra. I just called if you guys could prefer to me as extraly, I'd really appreciate it, thank you. Um, do we want to dig in a little bit speaking of whatever Brian's eating, about the peanut butter sandwiches at all? Yeah, yeah,

you like Jeff. Okay, So, according to the United States Department of Justice, Jonathan Toby from Annapolis, Maryland, was allegedly willing to sell sensitive details about our nuclear powered submarines of foreign government and hid that info and half of a peanut butter sandwich. Yeah. The Department of Justice said that Toby was a Department of the Navy employee who had been assigned to the Naval Nuclear Propulsion I don't even know how to say this word. That's propulsion program.

His work as a nuclear engine engineer allowed him to receive top secret security clearance through the U. S. Department of Defense, as well as Q clearance from the U. S. Department of Energy Energy, which gave him access to secret restricted data. Okay, but here's the part that really hits me. He doesn't even really do his research enough to know that he is sneaking it to the proper people and

is giving it to the actual FBI. I I mean in my opinion, I'm looking forward to seeing the transcript of their messages to each other, because for me, there has to be something in there of him being like, Hey, just curious, do you have a peanut allergy? And you know, I'm just so curious to know that's how you know Jonathan isn't a little bit because he can eat pean utes. But Jonathan was obviously born before nineteen because Jonathan is an allergic to peanut. Yeah, and I'm also wondering what

kind was that the crunchy was a creamy. I mean, it sounds like it sounds like a children's book. The fact that he was sneaking it out on peanut butter sandwiches, Like that's like Encyclopedia Brown or Ivy and Bean or picture. Yeah. As someone who was a vegetarian from the age of twelve to twenty and only had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches all of high school, every single day, I will tell you I did think I was better than everyone

and everybody. I was a vegetarian when I was a kid, and then my mom never felt the need to tell me that hot dogs were I mean, I guess they're not really meat either. But I would still eat hot dogs. And she was like, at some point she's going to realize that this. Oh wow, all right, so well just really quickly, because I do love the idea of the pep in the peanut butter sandwich conversation. The fact that

they went to West Virginia. First, let me just say there are so few Jews in West Virginia that in order to have a minion, which is ten or more Jewish Men in case of a funeral, they have to import them from other places. There are so few Jews in West Virginia. So I'll never go there. But why do you know that? Because I went to school in Virginia. Oh, and you were like, don't cross the border. Would never go to the never go to the west one. It's

very scary, okay. But and that's how I know that I would never be involved in any sort of FBI situation, because if they go to West Virginia, it's just not worth it to me. Um. I also thought it was interesting they were paying him to crypto. They were paying him in minaro. I know, for anyone who doesn't know his scryptocurrency. Well, guys, I think we're gonna have to take a little break because we've got to brand jacket now.

We do have to take a break, and when we come back, we'll bring Jeff the p I and we'll get some real details for you all, not just our opinions. We just cooked Dmitri so hard. That's exactly what I wanted. I was gonna say. Jeff is in the waiting room. Let's take a break. You just saw me raise my hand. We have him under our thumb. He has to raise his hands, right, Let's go to a break. Yeah, Hello everyone,

and welcome back to real time crime. We have with us now someone I'm very excited to introduce Jeff McGrath, who is a private investigator. We're gonna speak with Jeff a little bit about some Gabby Potito updates, Robert Durst, peanut butter sandwich spies, and get his take on all of this. He is a d u I expert. He is super successful in accident investigation, reconstruction scenes. And Jeff is the retired police officer motorcycle traffic d u I,

a officer and drug recognition expert. Jeff, thanks for being here with us today. Thanks for having me. You you guys make me happy. Okay, it's a break in my it's a break in my day, and I love it. So you're ready for us to grill you. I mean, go ahead. Can't be any you can't be any worse than any attorney that's Hitney. Nothing could be hotter than how I feel in this trench coat. Right, So okay,

let's just start with something easy. Where's Brian Laundry? He's not in the continental United States that I'm pretty much sure of. And how do we know that, Jeff, Well, we don't know that for certain, but you know, the suspicion behind the camping trip with his parents, I think that was just to plan his getaway. How much money does it actually take to disappear? I can do it

for twenty bucks? Yeah. Yeah. If you out of the country, if you're willing to live off the grid, and you can find some fisherman that said, you know, hey, can you just get me a hundred miles out to see you can find somewhere, especially if you're in Florida. There's a lot of areas that you could go where you leave the continental US in just a short time. And Jen, if you find a group on for ten dollars, will you match that price. Yes, absolutely, okay, thank you? Where

you go? Group on? Yeah? Don't you group on your murder? Getting right right, right right? And if somebody already knows who you are and what you look like and all those things. How do you get a burner phone? Oh? Anybody can get a burn phone. You can pop into a circle K and get a burner phone. You can use an alias name. UM. You could have a prepaid debit card that doesn't track you, UM in advance and you could you could take care of that. You could

have a burner phone, no issues. I deal with a lot of people with burner phones, and some of them I've found three and four phones. Wow. How you find people if they have burner phones? Um? Typically I don't find them through the phone because any any reverse phone search doesn't turn up results. That's how I know it's a burner. But then I look for activities and things that people usually are creatures of habit. Even though they try to break that, they will start to falter back

towards something. Uh, and eventually you can catch them. And what would you say? The reasoning behind Brian's parents not speaking to Gabby's parents at all would be I don't think they have any desire in speaking to them. They haven't shown any concern that that Brian is even missing. Uh, and I don't think they want to fully cooperate because they can be charged. So in your opinion, you don't think it could potentially be because the FBI has told

them it's better for them to stay quiet. No, I guarantee you an attorney that they have has told them it's better to stay quiet. They have the Atlantesome to talk. Well. Jeff's people reported that they saw him on the Appalachian Trail. Do you think that there's any chance that he's there? And if not, do you think that there are a lot of people on the Appalachian Trail who have committed

crimes that are hiding. Oh? Probably have you ever been to the Appalachian Trail but for this reason, Um, it's a it's a long trail. But oh, I guarantee there's some people there with that have committed some crimes. Absolutely. Um, you don't know who your neighbor is sometimes, so yeah, you run into somebody who's living off the grid in the Appalachians would make me kind of wonder. I've taken my kids campaign just out here in the desert and

seeing some really shady stuff. So I can imagine what the Appalachian Trail is if he was on the Appalachian Trail, which I know you don't think that he is. How long could you live off the grid without anything depends on his background. If he has any survival training. Uh, you know, somebody with that type of training, wilderness survival, they could survive years out there. If they know how to get their own food and shelter and water, they

can be fine. But I don't think he has that training that you know, you would expect to see somebody looking off the grid as a mountain man. I used to one state a guy who lived off the land and eviscerated animals so that he could feed himself and made his own clothing. And now I'm starting to wonder if I should call the FBI. You should probably let me know who he is so I can look back. He always said that if the apocalypse happened, I should

go back to his house. But I feel like he's the last person I want to be around during an apocalypse. I think that's a standard pickup line, thank you? Is that on his tender app I can't it's that's his that's his tag. I cannot with that. Um. Okay, speaking of the media stuff, because you brought up that he's all over the media. Do you think for somebody like him, with his personality type, do you think this is like feeding his ego? Do you think he's sitting around watching it?

Do you think that? Or do you think he's completely away from it all. I think he's a sociopath, is what I think. I think he's a he's an abuser, um, and I don't think he really thinks twice about it. He may be very ego centric and self centered, and it may be feeding his ego. I don't see that in what I've heard of him, but it wouldn't be uncommon for a sociopath to have those tendencies. Mhm. Can I ask a quick question back to his parents? This is this is where I'm sorry I didn't. I didn't wait.

Leo Teddy may ask a question. You may ask a question. Thank you so much. What I don't get in terms of his parents is, okay, so if there's if they're smart enough that they're covering all this up, right, But then then they're not smart enough to play along and make it seem like they really don't know like you do. They not trust their acting skills. Would you not talk

to Gabby's family like? And if that's the case, if they're not good enough to act that way, then why haven't the police and the I've gotten something from them while questioning them. It's called lawyer um at Any cops will tell you that as soon as someone mentions attorney, you can no longer question them. It's just it's a that's their right. Uh, it would be. I tell every one of my clients shut up, don't talk to anybody, every one of them, because you will ultimately incriminate yourself.

So that's what Lee and Teddy say to me. By the way, shut up, don't talk to anybody, you know, I say, shush up. I'm a mother, yeah, And every time every time my parents asked me why I don't have children yet, I'll just say, you have to speak to my lawyer work. Yeah, But okay, so start Jeff. We we obviously have ten million more questions, by the way, I can't I have so many because also I watched

the sixteen minutes thing last night. I told them earlier, and I was listening to Gabby's mother, and she was saying when the cops arrested not that not arrest to them, when the cops pulled them over for the slapping, and they were when they were Yeah, and when that happened. Gabby's mom was saying that she saw her daughter and obviously it was a cry for help, you could see in her daughter's face. However, the cops that arrested them did not see that. Yeah, And they didn't arrest them.

They just separated them. They just separated them. What did you see in that moment? Well, in in in my state, as a police officer, um, as a as a police officer, your hands are tied. If you see marks, and there's admission of physical contact, and you have witnesses that are not a part of the party saying that they saw the same thing. They both go to jail. That's in my state, and you both go to jail, she said, And I think this is either out of fear or

protecting him. She said, no, no, no, I hit him first. That would automatically put her in handcuffs as well. But the officer said, I see a mark on your face, and these people saw him punch you, so he would also go on handcuffs until they see a judge and they can be released. Um, why that didn't happen there, I don't know what their loss in Utah are surrounding domestic violence, but in in Arizona, both parties go to

jail in that situation. And I think she was either protecting him because she was either in love and and and going oh, he didn't mean it, or she was scared because the retaliation will result in what it did. And do you think this interview that the parents did can help an investigation or hurt it? I think an interview in general can do both. It depends if the attorneys there and in guiding the questions and they're very careful as to what they say. It can help the investigation.

But there's times where they're going to be there's there's information they just do not want to release because it could it could hinder Um, it will h could hinder them, but the police themselves would take it into a different investigation. So I've got another question for you. Okay, what is the first if we could just back up a little, what does the first step you take when you're looking for a missing person? Do you ever see patterns. We

look for patterns. The very first thing we do is we look for where did they go missing, Where was the last place they were seeing, Who was the last person to talk to them. Then we start working backwards from there. Okay, who talked to him before that? What did they do? Did you see any indications leading up to this? Then we look at bank accounts, um, credit card transactions. Um, there's there's all kinds of avenues we

go that I would call first. It's it's like a as soon as you get a missing person's case, the first thing you do is about a thousand things. So it's it's hard to say the very first thing you do, you and you want to analyze their patterns. What did they do before and did it change recently? Um? Like I said, people are always creatures of habit. You have to work hard at not changing or head changing your routine.

So yeah, we'd look for those things. And when people when you guys are getting tipped off, when people are sending in tips, how do you know which ones to take seriously? Well, that's a really difficult thing. You take every tip that comes in seriously. Everyone. And with the case I'm working right now, we've received everything from we know who's holding them, is that legs are broken being held in the basement, um, you know, and we have

to take it all seriously. Sometimes people just are sick and twisted and they just want to they want to speak and put their two cents in um. Sometimes people want to do it anonymously. I get a lot of burner phones that are sending texts that just are absolutely horrific, and the father's reading them. Uh. But you you you vet each and every tip that comes in by who's given the tip, where was it seem, when was it seem or ported? And then you do have to do

some investigation on those tips. So I could say, you know, out of ten tips, I'm probably going to be doing some legwork on eight of them. And do you think that YouTube and TikTok and all of these you know, trending things that have been happening around all of these high profile cases, do you think that it's helpful or hurtful?

I think it's hurtful. I think it's very hurtful. You get all these amateur investigators that want to poke into it, and and and and they start calling the investigators saying, oh I found this and hey, I found that, and oh I talked to this person. This is something I'm dealing with right now, and I'm going you know what, these are persons of interest for me. There's a reason we have not interviewed them yet. It's strategic. And now you jump in and start talking because you want to

be an investigator, you're hurting my case. Um, the only thing with publicity on that that helps is getting the face out there. So if anybody's seen the person and and basically some background information, that's what helps. The actual independent amateur investigators that there's thousands out there and psychics I should say, Um, they don't help. They don't help

at all. As a matter of fact, they slowly What about the case of the fact that the YouTube video that was released from Red White and Bethew in the Van Life Couple family, the fact that that led them to find Gabby's body pretty directly, would you say that there are sometimes when it's helpful and most of the time it's hurtful. Oh yeah, yeah. I can't make the blanket statement that that every time some some YouTuber or or TikTok says something that it hurts, I can't. I

can't say that. I can say a lot of times it does because they're they're they're putting out false information or information they don't they just don't know, uh. And if they don't know the whole story, they're gonna fill in the blanks with their with their own ideas. Also, this is a question I've always wanted to know the answer to, and it doesn't it's not quite relevant to this case. But why does so many people come forward saying that they murdered the person in question if they're

not actually the murderer. Wow, I'll never understand that. I don't have a psychology degree and I don't look me neither. Yeah, and people do that. It will blow your mind how many times people want to come forward to take take the um doesn't take the blame. It doesn't make sense

to me either, It really doesn't. And we have to work around that, and that's why we withhold information like in in the situation where Gabby was strangled, that didn't come out till later because they wanted to confirm that tells me there's other injuries to her, so it was

probably a pretty bloody scene. Plus she wasn't found ntil about three weeks after for her death, So there's decomposity decomposition there, but um as far as withholding like how somebody died or what instrument was used, because when all these people say, hey, I did it, I did it last Tuesday at two pm, Okay, well what did you use to do this? When we get them into an interrogation and if they can't identify the proper weapon, you know they were bludgeoned with the trophy found on a shelf,

We're not going to release that information. We're gonna say that was blunt force trauma. That well, speaking of confessions, can we also kind of bring up Robert a little bit here? Um? Wait, Teddy one, can I ask one final question about Gabby Petito because I'm I'm just dying to know your take on this, Jeff, I'm sorry, just

real fast. So we know the cause of death now was homicide and the autopsy said that it was by strangulation, and obviously signs are pointing to Brian Laundry and we're waiting to hear about if there are any DNA samples. But I'm very curious your thoughts about that. But I'm more so curious to know why you think they said that Brian is not connected to the deaths of the two women who were also found murdered, but they won't tell us why they know that, because there's patterns you

look for. If somebody is killing people in one area and they killed three people, you're gonna see some common, uh, common themes in there, some some very common things. If it's strangulation by Gabby and then one person shot and then another person stabbed, uh, it could be the same person. But you've got to look for different commonalities in these in these things, and they're not seeing it. Um, they're just not seeing it at all. And and I understand why.

I think it's coincidental that this was close to two and timing and two together, but it's they're obviously seeing something that disconnects them. So this does tie into the Robert Durst case and the fact that do you think that serial killers often killed their subjects in the same way? No, I don't. As in the case of Robert Durst, Um, well we don't know how it's how his wife was

killed because she hasn't been found. But you know he in two thousand one when he shot somebody in self defense and was acquitted of that and then the one he was convicted of where execution style, shouting back the head, those are common things and that's that's his go to. I mean, if you look at him, he's not a very strong man. It takes it takes some some strength to tussle with somebody man or a woman and pulled him down and strangle somebody. That takes That takes some

force and it takes some time. Shooting is quick. Stabbing is very personal. Um strangulation is very personal. Shooting is just I just this is the easiest way. Um. So yeah, I was gonna say, so, do you think that's why they never found the head to Morris Black's body after it was dismembered, because it would have shown evidence that he was also possibly shot execution style. I do believe that, Yeah, there was something I don't and I think it's just

again coincidental that they didn't find the head. He threw the you know, chopped the body up through this. See but uh, the head could have been picked apart by sea life and they were able to get other stuff. How do you go with self how do you go with self defense when your reaction after doing that was to chop them up, put them in bags and throw them in the water. You know, I was talking to one of my detective partners about this, and I don't know that he had. He had to have an amazing

attorney and a dumb jury. I'm just saying, I'm putting it out there because that is it shows that there's there's some problems with that man, and and the self defense thing starts to go away when you cut up bodies. So I don't know how not just not just that, but how when you said on camera on tape there it is you're caught, What the hell did I do? How was that not enough to convict? Well, that's a that helped in their prosecution, but they just needed more.

There was something they needed that was more. I'm not familiar with exactly what went down on the trial of what was presented as evidence. And you've got to remember us as people, we get all this information fed to us through through social media, through news, through through podcasts, through everything we get, we get inundated with information and crimes.

Now the jury is not here, and all the information we hear there is arguments from prosecution and defense attorneys constantly on what they're going to let in and what they won't let in, so the juries don't hear everything. We're here, where we're going? How did they not see what we see because they didn't have all the stuff put in front of them. Do you think that? How often are the persons of interest involved in letters and

confessions such as such as Robert Durst? How often? Yeah? Like, well, you know how he is is a part of writing the confessions and he yeah, well O J did it too. Uh so you know, I mean, it's it's I think what I think again not having a psychology degree, but what I think is is people have something inside of them that they want to get this out. They want

to get the information out. Now, if they're a sociopath with those ecocentric qualities, they're gonna want to brag about if they have some uh you know, empathy or or remorse for what happened, they might do it because it's there. It's cleansing there. Um that that's the only way I can think of doing that. Some people, some people want to taunt police too. You got to remember that that people will do things because it's a game. It's a

captain mouse game, and they want to stay ahead. But they want to tip them off, but not really um that happened back in the the btcculents where they just taunting the police with the UM information and letters and all that. So, yeah, it's people do it. Do you think they want to be caught? Do you think they want to push the limit to see how far they can go, but that they ultimately do want to be caught or not caught. I think they ultimately don't want to be caught, but I think they want to push

the limit. They want to push the envelope. They want the attention, right, it's exciting and they're getting attention, yes, and adrenaline rush absolutely, And these people that are killing more than one person typically they get some type of a rush off them. That's the reason they're doing And I mean this kind of ties into all three of the cases that we talked about takes. We also talked about the peanut butter sandwich spies. Do you think that TVs and TV and media and all of this helps

criminals become better criminals? No? I don't because I think TV and and stuff they got it wrong. You know they they it's you know, they're trying to entertain you. So if you were to follow just a case without a TV show like what they're talking ABO. Let's say, well in order for example, Uh, if you would actually see really how the case went down, you fall asleep halfway through because there's it's really not that exciting, so they got to add stuff. So no, do I think

it helps people be better criminals. I think it helps law enforcement because they're gonna do stupid things because they saw it on TV and it's going to get off right or just me, I do stupid things because I saw it on TV. So Jeff, I I know that Robert Durst broke his parole and went back to Galveston, Texas to the scene of the crime, and that often people do go back to the scene of the crime. Why that is uh that that's something that's been done

in FBI profiling for many many years. Uh, we as as as police officers and when I was a police officer and detective. Anytime there was a crime scene, what you want to do is you want to capture on video or pictures of the crowd standing around, because a lot of times your suspect is in that crowd. In the case I'm working right now, we have hundreds of

volunteers come out on weekends to search the desert. So, but we make them sign in through a through a website, so I have everybody's information, their vehicle, that all that stuff. So I'm always going through and I start running backgrounds on people. So it is really common, really really common for people to return to the scene of the crime,

the criminal, the suspects. That's that's just been going on. Uh, it's they want to see what they did, and sometimes they want to they want to be involved in the investigation because they want to see where it's going if they're gonna get caught, or to hide evidence that they need to someone's turned volunteer and other than lawyers, what other resources are available to a serial killer or anybody that's involved in crime that has has a lot of

money versus somebody that doesn't, you mean like to get them off. Well, shoot money. There's a lot of celebrities that have committed some crimes that, um, we've never heard because money has been able to give their way through it. I'm not saying the system is corrupt, saying that some of the places can be bought. Uh, I haven't seen it in my jurisdiction. But but usually the better the attorney to fight against a defense lawyer or a public

defender or something like that. The better the prosecutor. I've seen both. I've seen defense attorneys that are that that people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for and they go up against the prosecutor. They make prosecutor look bad and they usually will win the case because of how they presented in the case. So other than lawyers, it's just it could be just resources to to help them get what they need, what the what that lawyer needs

to do things. Because that lawyer is gonna hire investigating. The investigator is going to go out, and it depends on if he's an investigator that wants to do good or wants to do bad. He can go out. He can screw up a crimacyne he can screw up the investor gian he can he can take police off of it, or he can actually work through it and be possible. A lot to think about. It's a lot to think about. Thank you so much for joining us today. Well, you promise you'll come back with us. I promise I will.

I want to let's do this, okay, Jeff, I'll text you from my burner phone when we need you do it, do it when I when I get that, oh there is We need you all the time. Never leave us, no, please please have me back. I'm excited for this. We will and we know you'll return to the scene of the crime. Jeff. I always do, always do. I'm always one step ahead though. Terrifying and amazing. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jeff. We love you very much.

Thank you, guys, thank you for your insight. Bye. I'll enjoyed it. We'll see you again. Bye. Thank you, Jeff. And I think it's time to go to break a right, guys, I think we can all use a break. Well, yeah, we'll be back in just a few moments. Well, guys, that was so fun with Jeff. Please keep tuning in,

keep sending us any questions or theories that you have. Leah, Okay, just start asking everybody what their thoughts are, because you and I are going to go back and forth and we don't need Dmitri's opinion on where he thinks Cathy is. I've been sending it already, Dmitri. No one has asked you to speak, but if you if you'd like to reach out to us on Instagram. Also our instagram is Real Time Crime Pod and if you go to either me or Teddy's instagrams, we both have it linked in

our bios. Tell us what your theories are on where Brian Laundry is d M. We will discuss this. Do you think Robert Durst committed all three murders? Where do you think Kathy Durst is Teddy? Do you have any bone chilling questions? Yeah? I mean do you have a peanut allergy? How would you slip spy secrets? Would it be in a sneaker? In a gum wrapper? Would it be? Would it be? I mean, here's the thing, I don't even know how to get something out of my computer

to slip it to somebody. I need all of the tips and send us all of the MFL. I would be the worst spy because I have this habit of forgetting where I put everything. I lose literally everything. I lost my dignity years ago. Haven't been able to find it since, but I did notice that. But either way, guys, send us all the information, send us all of your thoughts, questions,

any crimes you want us to investigate. Also, please send us your thoughts because if not, we'll never stop talking m M. But also if one wants to come over to my apartment and find where I put that three thousand dollars cash, I will give it all to you. I just don't know where I put it. You're inviting people to your home on a crime podcast. Not a good idea. Okay, let me let me go back in time. Um, if I could do one redo on the whole podcast, it would be no one come to my house. Um,

We'll talk to you guys next week. Talk to you all soon at Real Time Crime Pod. At Real Time Crime Pod, I've been Leo Lamar and Teddy Mellencamp and sometimes Dmitri and sometimes Dmitri when I'm allowed. Yeah, his first name actually is sometimes and his last name Dmitri. Sorry, just felt like all right, I hate myself. Bye bye. Robert would say bye bye bye bye, Oh my god. Real to Grod, I mean, is it actually a real time crime or solving anything or is that just the

thing we say. It's a thing we say, got it? Okay? See an act week for more real time crime only on I Heart Radio.