Behind the Murderers

COVID positive son on the trunk of her car. L O l continued investigation regarding the accidental murder on set of Alec Baldwin's rust Ahmad Aurbury and rounding it out with the death of Robert Durst, before we head over to an interview with Joe Burlinger, the director of crime scene The Times Square Killer, which is trending on Netflix right now. I told you all to watch it. I hope you did your homework, and hopefully we can get to voice military before we close up for today. But first, Teddy,

any updates on finding your missing cell phone? Nothing, you guys, Nothing, not one from none of you. And you know what, I'm disappointed. I feel like a lot of your listeners may live an asthmen and may have seen it. And but I will tell you one thing that did happen. I opened a drawer and I saw a piece of the purse. I saw and I was like, but really, it was just the piece when you decide to not wear it as a Fannie pack, when you decided to

carry it like this, that that's all it was. And that just made you more sad, and it just made me more sad that I'm still without and I've now had to learn, Look how big this phone is. Though it's not bigger than my person, Yeah it's bigger than my head. But I'm how's your voice? I don't know she's emotional about I'm about the missing Fannie pack. But yeah, that's what's been happening. Nothing's been found, but I do

at least have a regular phone. I had to settle on light blue, which is an ideal for a forty year old mother. But sometimes you take what you can get, and I just can I just say one thing real quick, I feel badly. Leah's face lit up when you said I opened a drawer and found a pie a piece of the fan pack. She literally thought like someone sent you a part of it, like a ransom thing, and you were like, but it's just an extra part, and she was like, we're going to have a real crime

on our hands, you know what I mean? Just the idea of someone taunting Teddy with like a Louis Batons liver is someone did taunted me with that. I was like, also, who does pieces like? Then I had to look it up on Revolve and see why there was a missing piece, and I was like, oh, I never took that piece to Aspen. It's just devastating, really it is. But all of our listeners who were dying for us to move on, I say, hey, we got some I say, you haven't been without a phone for seven days, and I would

lose my mind. I mean, my mind is already. Let's be fair. Let's be fair. Are you having a coffee right now? Sometimes? Yes? What are you drinking? Sure? No, it is a it's a coffee, it's it's a it's a vodka tonic. I have to be honest. I'm having a glass of wine because I just came from my other podcast and we were raging. That's not a slap in the face. I'm sorry. Yeah, first of all, how dare you? I can't help it. Sometimes this is what happens.

You know what. I'll just say, I appreciate you calling it. The other podcast your main. I feel like you're where you're playing squeezing where you are the main. I mean, it's hard to describe the level of me. I am. It's either I'm talking true crime or I'm talking trap about housewives. It's it's really hard, which is another crime in and of itself. It's a different type. Yeah, speaking of a different type of crime, shall we head into

our hot topics for today? And Lucian, I mean, let's just started off with a Texas mother who's charged after her fourteen year old son is found in the trunk of her car to drive through COVID testing site. She claims that he tested positive and needed to be quarantine, so she's being faced with endangerment charges. And oh boy. Sarah Beam, forty two from the Cypress Fairbanks area near Houston,

I mean, it's Texas. What do you want us to say about it, allegedly packed the team in the trunk as she drove to the testing site after he tested positive for the virus on January three to get another test. They issued a warrant for her arrest on Friday, and please say Beam pulled to the giant pulled up to the giant tent set up and the Health services director at the site hurt a noise in her trunk. Sorry, this is what I swear. I'm like, am I reading

an article from the Onion? But are the same? She brought him to get retested. It's not like she knew they were gonna have to like test him. He's in the trunk. She didn't see anything wrong with this. Well, it's because she didn't want to get herself. She didn't want to get COVID. Yeah, she said that she was protecting herself from the virus. Well, I can tell you guys this from personal experience. So yesterday, how's your cough? Leah? I muted so people wouldn't have to hear it. I

saw it though. Um yesterday I get a call. I take the kids to the bus. They had to get COVID tested at nine am. Um. The day before, I get a call it nine thirty on Monday, Hey, um, teddy, Mrs sari Abe cruises in the nurse's office. He had a headache for a minute, you have to come get him. And I was like, he had a headache for a minute, and did we lock him in the trunk of the car. And honestly, I almost dead. I go, um, does he

feel sick? Does he have a temperature? And they're like, he's logged as an all this so he cannot be at school until he gets a negtive COVID test he gets in the car. I'm honestly like pedals in the medal, like, Cruise, unless you were sick, do not go to the nurse's office. Again, He's like, Mom, I really just wanted more water. I don't know what you want me to say, but I feel the moment of locking your kids in the trunk for that. Yeah, this was, um, I feel it. This

woman locking her kid in the trunk. Well, it's two seconds away from hiring an uber to pick him up. I was two seconds away from locking Cruise in the trunk for going to the nurses office for a second of a headache too that he didn't have that. Then he the second he got in the car, goes, can I go still get a football? No, you just threatened to have COVID at school and I have to pay two hundred and fifty dollars to get a COVID test for you to go back tomorrow. Why don't they have

COVID tests at school? They do, but they don't have the rapids. You can go the next day. Why didn't cruise have water? He did have water. He just asked his teacher for more water because he had run out. And then he said, I'm getting a headache from not having water, and then that's considered an ILLNESST so he's dehydrated. Yeah, is he turning into a white woman in l A pretty much? So you know what, the next time he does that, he may end up in my trunk. Hilarious.

I got. I was like, Okay, we're gonna start off with the drive through the woman that that locker sound, and we're all gonna think that's ridiculous, and then we'll move on to the story. But okay, fine, I wouldn't really put him in the trunk unless it was an STV. Oh I thought you said okay, SUV. Then it's like it goes up. Oh my god, you guys are so sensitive today. Came in here. Yeah, I'm sorry, but you you came in here hot, being like look at me. I just came here from my other podcast, and I

dressed up for them. I don't dress up for you guys, and also do like my new setup. And now we feel We're like in the same setup. You thought I was in the same setup. Don't you see the basketball? Who Okay, I do know that you're I'm sure you're a wonderful mother, but what you're doing is you're sitting here drinking wine and you're like, oh, my kid needed water, screw him, throwing him in the trunk of the I guess I can't make jokes today. Fine, No, you can

just take him to make get another COVID test. Should we get into Alec Baldwin speaking of good parenting again? Hot on the Segway. All right, We're ready for it. Following reports that actor Alec Baldwin's cell phone had not yet been turned over to officials investigating the fatal shooting on the Rust film set, weeks after a search warant was granted, Alex said on Saturday that any suggestion that he was not complying with law enforcement was in fact

a lie. The police in Santa Fe, New Mexico, obtain a search warrant more than three three weeks ago, granting it access to information on Mr Baldwin's phone related to the October shooting, during which a gun that Alec was rehearsing with fire to live round, killing the movie cinematographer

and wounding its director. Filming himself from the driver's seat of a parked car, Alex said that the process for recovering information from his phone takes time and involved the authorities in New Mexico coordinating with the authorities where he lives a k New York. Someone from another state can't come to you and say give me your cell phone, Alex said in the video, adding that they have to

specify exactly what they want. They can't just go through your phone and take, you know, your photos or your love letters to your wife or what have you. According to an afidavit filed in the application for the search warrant granted by a judge in New Mexico in December sixteenth, Detective Alexander Hancock asked Mr Baldwin and his lawyer on the day of the fail shooting to hand over his phone,

but was told to obtain a warrant. When the search warrant for Mr Baldwin's phone was granted, officials in Santa Fe requested help from the sheriff office in Suvolk County and New York, where Mr Baldwin was and has a home. Apparently, they said that the crust the request had been forwarded to the county's district attorney's office to work out the differences and laws between the two states. Okay, so why do you guys think that this investigation is lower than usual?

Do you think Alex Alec is I think the part of the problem is Hilaria You mean Hillary? Well, all I know is that Hilaria Baldwin's Instagram is something that I go deep down. I can't turn it off, like I I need to understand so many dynamics in regards to her. Like I'm watching it, I'm like, are we really going to believe that she has seven DTYO kids? Was zero help? She's constantly breastfeeding. There's no there's all

of it. And then I read and something that said as Alec Baldwin struggling because of his wife Laria, And and now I don't know what do you guys think. I feel like this case is just I think it's I actually don't feel like it's moving slower than the normal. I think most cases take a while. I think we're just looking into it and waiting for some like juicy headlines or something, and they're just not there. You think

this was just an accident. I mean, it's possible. But either way, this little stuff is coming out like, oh, he's not complying with the cell phone. To me, that's just I think that's the media trying to spin a narrative allege. I think that there's just no story and they're trying to make a story out of it. But you know, it seems like a terrible tragedy and horrible accident and maybe no one I don't know. I don't know if they're trying to figure out who, if someone

should go to jail for this. Um. I mean, there was a live round in the gun, and there should never be a live round, so someone is responsible for that, and I don't know what the judicial system will say, but I don't I don't know. I don't know what they're trying to figure out with Alex Boon. I mean, I think they're trying to see how much he knew. But either way, I just don't see that he's at fault. I just in my mind, I just don't think he

had all the information. From what I have heard in regards to Alec Baldwin, I don't think he's the type of person that you want to give all the information to. I don't think he's that easy going type that you're like, I'm just gonna vent to you or tell you what's going on. I think he's more that you you shield if things are going wrong. I hope that people speak about me like this. One day. It was the way I was speaking of positive Yeah. I wouldn't be left

out of all information, you know. I just I feel like ignorance is bliss um. But guests, who's in the waiting room? I'm so excited, And shall we do a little intro and then bring him in or yeah, that's all you? I'm why don't we take a quick break and regroup? And thanks Dmitri for knowing what we need sometimes. Thank you sum Sommy, and welcome back to real time Crime. We have with us my friend Joe Burlinger, who is the director of Crime Scene, The Times Square Killer, which

is trending on Netflix. If you don't know Joe, he is a filmmaker and producer particularly focused on true crime documentaries. Joe's films and docuseries draw massive attention to social justice issues in the United States and abroad. In such films as Brothers Keeper, Paradise Laws, The Child Murders at robin Hood Hills, Crude White, United States of America Versus James J. Boulger,

and Intend to Destroy, Death, Denial and Depiction. He's also best known for the film series Paradise Lost, which documents the murder trial and the subsequent legal battles of the three Arkansas teenagers Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin and Jessie mus Kelly Jr. Convicted of murder. The film series brought mainstream attention to this case, and a ton of celebrities took up the case of getting these young men out of

prison and getting Ecles off of death row. The mainstream attention brought on by the documentary series allowed for a well finance legal team to investigate every lead on the case.

He's also spearheaded and directed to twenty nineteen projects centered on the infamous serial killer Ted Bundy, the Netflix docuseries Conversations with the Killer, the Ted Bunny Tapes, and the drama film Extremely Wicked, Shocking, the Evil and Vile starring Zac Efron, And then, finally, in collaboration with journalist Greg Milner, Joe wrote the book Metallica. The Monster lives about his early career, accomplishments and challenges forging his path in the

world of film. This book is centered around the filming of Metallica Some Kind of Monster, and Joe is a dear friend of mine from back in my days in New York and a very very honored and excited to have him here. And hello, Joe Lea, how are you? Joe? I'm great? How are you? Were so excited you're here? Here, Joe are We're so fabulous? How are you? I'm good, I'm good. Great to see. Joe and I have known each other for I don't want to say by almost a decade now. More than that, perhaps I'm trying to

pretend him twenty How did you guys? Mean that's how about all of you you've seen? When I'm first at you, Oh my god, thank you so much. It was only a couple of years off. We met at Radical Media many months ago in New York City, and I can't even remember at that time which project you were working on, because so many more have come out since then, but I think it was around actually Paradise Loss, it might have been, And I mean, that's probably one of the

most iconic projects to ever come out. Uh, I guess I have to agree with you. I mean, you did get someone off of death Row. I do think Paradise Lost, does you know? Is up there in the annals of true crime. Um, But I'll let you say that, not me.

It's perfect. And when you were not here, I already gave you a beautiful introduction listing all of your credits and all that you've really contributed to since thatt to Society and we know that you know you were a true crime aficionado, but your career also spans more than just true crime, and we'll get into that a little bit. But we are here today to talk about your new documentary that's trending on Netflix, Crime Scene, The Times Square Killer.

I watched every episode obsessively, already posted about an Instagram, told everyone to watch it. I absolutely loved it. It's a three part limited series on Netflix right now. By the way, for all of you that haven't watched it, do your homework before listening and then come back to this episode just in case you don't want any you know, spoilers. But this documentary examines the notorious case of Richard Cottingham.

Also known as the Torso Killer, who claimed to have raped, slaughtered, and mutilated more than a hundred women between nineteen sixty seven and night. So, um, I know that we all watched it, we all loved it, we all binged it. Joe, fabulous work. Yet again, as always, can I say, I know, I know this is what you do as a director, but I really enjoyed you took me back to that time.

It's one thing sometimes you're just watching something You're like, Okay, I'm trying to piece together, but knowing time square the way time squares now is not that So you really brought me back to I'm gonna stop short of saying I felt like a sex worker in Time Square, but I felt like I was in that time and I thought that was fantastic and I thought it really I appreciate that. I'm glad. I'm glad you felt that way

because that was really an important, you know mission. And you know, first of all, the series is about how a location. It's not just the story of Cottingham, uh, it's the story of the whole series is rooted in how does the location and a in a particular time

period and societal values contribute to a crime. So season one we did Cecil Hotel in Los Angeles, talked about the homelessness problem and all sorts of l A policies that drove people to create this skid row in l A, which contributed to the perception of crime at the Cecil and this and for this season actually Time Square in the seventies. I remember, I was a teenager. My first love before before movies, was actually magic, doing magic tricks.

And there was a magic a very famous magic store in Times Square called Lu Tannin's, which is still a very famous magic store. But they moved to the uh they moved more downtown, but they were in the heart of Times Square at the time. I was, you know, a teenager, and it's like a totally different world on

so many levels. The fact that my parents would allow me to take the train from the suburbs, which I did, and you get off the Grand Central you walk, you know, four or five blocks from Grand Central to Times Square as a teenager, you know, I just remember vividly, just you know, walking, you know, looking in the windows of Times Square, of the sex joints, you know, as a fourteen or fifteen year old looking at things you're not supposed to look at and being simultaneously you know, titillated,

I will admit, and also like scared to death with my wallet in my front pocket and like, you know, you're taking your life into your hands. Uh, you know when you went into Times Square. And in fact, the whole idea to do the series is I took my daughter cut to twenty nineteen, and I took my twenty year old daughter to Hamilton's over the holidays in December of twenty nine, before we knew of COVID. What a different time, you know, not not too long ago, but

it seems like, you know, a long time ago. And we you know, we went to a mattenee of Hamilton's and then kind of came out at you know, dinner time Times Square, the lights, the action, the you know, Disney logos. And I said to my daughter, and I just seeing my daughter's face, how excited she was to be in Time Square during the holidays. And I said, you know, when I was you know, your age, and I went into Time Square, you would be taking your

life into your hands. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, because we had been talking with Netflix about what's a good idea for season two. I'm like, yes, Time Square in the seventies would be it would be

great because, you know, not for gratuitous reasons. It's it's just a particular time and place that all of these forces came together to create this horrible legacy of predatory behavior that you know, and unnoticed and people just didn't care, you know, And that is an issue still today that sex workers are neglected. Crimes against sex workers are treated differently than than crimes against other people. And you know,

that's that's a problem. Everyone deserves justice, and whether it's saying a little who I did a series about a year and a half ago who killed with impunity because he for forty years because he preyed upon uh, women of color who were sex workers, or Richard Cottingham, it's you know, it's just just nobody seemed to care. Now. No. I know why I connected with this because I grew up taking the train into New York from arriving at Grand Central and I had the same type of thing

the memories of Times Square like that. Do you I just was curious, do you feel like they thought? I know. It's also there's some just kickiness to it to some statistics stuff. Do you think people thought if I kill because I know the l a strangler and all that that was sex workers? All was it just I can get away with this because nobody gives ship. I think

that's you know, Cottingham started off. You know, we later learned Cottingham started off not killing sex workers, but younger teenage girls and a cup and a nurse who was not a teenage girl. You know. His early killings were in and around his hometown in New Jersey, across the river, and and those prompted investigations and things started heating up. And I think it was it was a big part of the reason that he then shifted his attention to

Times Square. You know, he worked at Blue Cross and Blue Shield, which was on Third Avenue and not too far from Times Square, and he just realized that he could get away with us, you know, and you know, honestly, particularly in Los Angeles, you know, police were famous in this time period if if a sex worker was found in a dumpster or in a back alley murdered, they would literally classify it as as no human involved, you know,

the phrase they use because it wasn't worth. What that meant was We're not going to put our resources into this murder because it's a sex worker and who cares? So um, it was a troubling trend, and you know it's gotten better, but it's you know, there's still such a stigma against sex work in general, and a stigma against murders of sex workers. You know. It's so interesting by the way that Times Square is a character in

the documentary. And I remember growing up in New York and it was a Broadway playground when I was a kid. But when I was a kid, going south of St. Mark's was terrified m and I remember you could buy a fake I D on the street for twenty bucks and you would see people shooting up on the street, just crusties or whatever people would call them, in the park nearby, shooting up. Now it's not like that either.

And then by the time I was working a radical, you know, St. Mark's had kind of become a play ground, and then the gentrification moved down and I would go to Bushwick and I would feel the same way where I would feel, oh God, it's so dangerous here. And it's interesting to see how all of these areas keep getting gentrified as the city. I would say grows up. Yeah, well it's well, Manhattan has become a place for mainly the wealthy, and you know, people who aren't don't have means,

have been pushed out of Manhattan. I mean that's not completely. You know, there are obviously middle class people in Manhattan, but generally it's become an island of the wealthy, you know, the international wealthy, and the crime gets put pushed, pushed

to the outer boroughs. The question I had when I was watching it and watching Cottingham, how do you think that somebody like him is able to maintain a regular household and being married and have a family and live this completely other life, Like how are you able to live both ways? Like how can you trick your wife? How can you trick your friends? How can you trick your employee, like the people that you work with? Yeah, now that's that's what you hit the nail on the head.

That's that's the question I'm obsessed with, you know, And it's it's whenever I do a serial killer show, some people say, why are you giving him a platform? Why you give you know, there's there is some pushback today on doing shows like this, But the reason I keep returning to this subject, is it just first of all as a as a cautionary tale to people that these

people exist. But more importantly, you know, we we uh, we want to think that people who do evil are evil all the time, that they're that that you know, like in you know, Buffalo Bill and Silence of the Lambs, that they just look creepy in the moment you see them, you know, to protect yourself because they present as evil.

But that but the having done true crime to thirty years and done real cases, you know, generally speaking, whether it's you know, a pedophilic priest or Bernie made Off or Richard Cottingham, the people who do evil in this world are generally people that you least expect and most often trust. And that's the disturbing thing because they get

off on that, right, they get off on it. And also from a you know, from a just warning people out there, like you know, just because somebody seems trustworthy, you know, there's a certain threashold you should you know, not give give your trust to people, you know, which I know is a is a down message. But you know, when I decided to do the Bundy stuff, you know, I did Bundy both the movie with zac Efron and

the unscripted conversations with the Killer on Netflix. And when the opportunity first was presented me to me to do the Bundy tapes because the author of the book that the tapes were based on reached out and said, Hey, I have these tapes from thirty years ago. Do you think there's something here? And I thought to myself, well, God, Bundy is such a well known story. Everybody knows the

story of Bundy. But I was sitting around dinner with my two daughters, my college aged daughters, who were home for vacation, and I asked him, you know who Ted Bundy is? And both both of my daughters are incredibly bright women at the time, one was going to Columbia, one was just starting at M I t s you know, smart kids. And I know that sounds like I'm not just coming from a bob but but but neither one of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And I said, really, well,

ask some of your friends. And like the feedback I got from twenty year olds twenty two year olds was we don't know who Ted Bundy is or wasn't he a serial killer or whatever? And that encouraged me to like, well, now it's time to retell his story because you can never tell the story of this man enough as a cautionary tale that just because somebody looks and acts trustworthy doesn't mean you should trust them. And that's that's the thing that Bob goles my mind is, you know, is

how people can you know, be that deceptive? And have you know Bundy had a girl. I mean, the whole movie was, you know, extremely wicked, was through the eyes of Lily Collins, who was the girlfriend. And she believed in Bundy for years because he was such a wonderful father and it's not surrogate father to her daughter and a wonderful boyfriend. Uh. And you know, so how people do these things is incredible. But you know, you can

take that a step further. How do you know climate denying oil executives go to bed at night, you know, you know, perpetrating the system that's killing the planet apparently relatively exactly. So like like people's ability to compartmentalize and still think they're good people, uh, you know is part of human nature. But when it comes to doing the things that these particular monsters do and then having a

normal home life is mind boggling. The other reason I wanted to do Cottingham is and you know, obviously many crime aficionados know his name, but for the most part, most people don't know who Richard Cottingham is. Everyone knows who Bundy is, everyone knows who Gaycy is. Who knows who dam Or is um, you know, but Cottingham is not on that list. And yet he might have killed over a hundred women in a horrifying way. And why don't we know him because he killed sex workers and

nobody seems to carry sex workers as victims. Well, and I think that's what's nice about you know, you said that people sometimes say, why are you giving this person a platform? It is that What you also do is you take these victims and you explain who they were, and you you know, you you hear from one of their kids and you and so you actually humanize them and you're not leaving them behind. Is just somebody that didn't matter to society quote unquote that just got killed

and all the focuses on the killer. You kind of, you know, you bring these people in life and you realize these were real people, regardless of what they did for a living. They did it for certain reasons, which is what the life that they had, but it doesn't mean that they should just be, you know, just a nameless person in a in a story. And Joe just as zoom out for a second, because clearly we're not

just going to be talking about crime scene. We've already started covering other cases that you've covered, and we talked about the Cecil Hotel on here and I'm personally obsessed with the Elite Lam. I still think it's the Elevator game. But other than that, I just want to say, you know, Joe as one of the most brilliant and prolific documentarians of our generation and creating art that actually has purpose and winning many Emmy's. You know, your work spans so

many cases. You covered the West Memphis three, you got Damian Eccles off of Death Row. You know your art how a function and that's I would say, almost rare these days. And so we are really honored that you are coming here today on Real Time Crime with me and Teddy and Dmitri to talk about all things true

crime at this moment. And I just wanted to zoom out a little because your brain is so interesting to me and I know that you don't just do true crime, but we're just so curious about your interest in filmmaking and how you got started and if this was something you always wanted to do. Interesting. First of all, thank you for all those compliments. Much appreciated kind of you. You know, I have to say a lot of people

were involved in getting Damian Echoes out of prison. I mean, the films were definitely a catalyst, but there was a lot of a lot of great minds at work to make that happen. Um. You know, it's interesting. I came to filmmaking very late. I was always uh, you know, in college. Honestly, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um. I was a language made or and I was particularly became through my studies, not because of any home connection.

I became fluent in German and I was as a and I mean the reason I became fluent with German is I was obsessed with the Holocaust, you know. But we were not Jewish at home. We had no Jewish traditions at home. Really, I mean we were Jewish, but not observant. I was, you know, I'm a fifth generation German, but no German was spoken at home. Um, you know, like my great great great grandfather came over from Germany

long before the Holocaust. But I was exposed in my teens to the Holocaust liberation footage of the camps, and it's just it's just, you know, it's just it spoke to me deeply, and it caused me to want to learn German in high school because I wanted to have a more deeper understanding of that kind of horror and have something like that could happen And was there something particularly wrong with Germans versus is there a larger way to look at this, which so by the time I

got to college, I ended up majoring in languages and German was my main language that I spoke fluently. Again, out of studies, no one spoke German at home, and so I kind of stumbled my way into a job at Ogilvie and Mayther, which is a big New York ad agency or international ad agency that had an office in Frankfort and needed a young American guy who or

gal but it was me spoke multiple languages. So I found myself I kind of you know, bluffed my way into a job as a junior producer in Frankfurt, Germany in the mid eighties, and the first time I was ever on a TV set or film set was was a Nest Cafe commercial being shot in Germany. Uh. And that's when, you know, just being around production, that's when the light bulb went off, Oh, I think I want to get into this film thing, not this language thing.

My only all in college was to figure out how to go to Europe and be paid to speak languages I mean, and it resulted in this job with Ogilvie. And then around the same time, Jim Jarmusch is Stranger Than Paradise was. I saw it in a cinema in Germany and as I was thinking about, oh, I want to be a filmmaker, um, and that it's just all

kind of congealed. And then I was sent back to New York figuring back with Ogilvie, working on advertisements on American on the American Express account, and I was thinking, how do I get how do I get out of advertising and into film? You know, this is a really long answer, you know, but that's the origin story. Um. And so uh, the irony of becoming a noted documentarian is, you know, I come back to New York. I'm I'm I'm a junior producer producer, this time working on American

Express campaign. And for this part cular campaign, the agency and the client decided they wanted like a more real people documentary style commercial and unscripted commercial, which was new at the time. Now it's very commonplace, and so the you know, we had the idea to hire the Mazel Brothers, you know, seminal documentarians to shoot this real people American Express commercial and I kind of hit it off with David Mazel's who was the brother who died short a

few years later. But they were looking to be called more to do commercials because you know, documentaries and those and those those days weren't very profitable, and so doing more commercials to supplement their income was an idea that they were liked, and they thought somebody like me could help them get more commercial So I joined the Mazel Brothers, you know, the seminal documentarians, who did give me shelter

and great garden salesman like classics of the genre. So they hired me to be their executive producer of commercials, which was really just a glorified sales job where I would go to ad agencies and show them they're real and say, hey, you do really do more real people commercials. And that's where I got my documentary education, and then you know, eventually I made it. I decided I wanted to take my try my hand at a documentary. And my actually, my first documentary was was very comedic Lea

and you would have enjoyed it. In particular called the Outrageous Taxi Stories, and I interviewed cappies to fell the most outrageous whatever happened to see that whatever happened in their caves, and that got you know, some attention and went to some film festivals, and then that's where I met Bruce Snowsky, who was my filmmaking partner for many

years because he was an editor at Nasals. And then he and I were looking for a verite doc because you know, there's there's a lot of exceptions to the rule. You know, people like Barbara Copple and whatnot. But during the eighties, you know, document you like pure cinema. Verite documentaries as an art was kind of dying out, and

documentaries were very kind of no no offense. I love Ken Burns, but documentaries were very kind of talking head PBSC kind of things, and these these great adventures of following a story as they're unfolding was kind of not that popular in the eighties, and so Bruce and I said, let's find a story and do a classic, you know, verite film, and that's how Brothers Keeper was born. And

then I was on my way. And you know, we gambled everything a dozen credit cards, second mortgages on homes and gambled literally everything to get Brothers Keeper in the can and luckily it was invited to Sundance and we want a prize, and then we had a career. But the irony at that period where I was like, I want to get into film. I don't want to work in advertising. You know, if I if we had hired

Ridley Scott. It wasn't like I had a particular interest in documentaries, but if we had hired Ridley Scott to shoot the American Express commercial, and if I had happened to have hit it off with Ridley Scott or whomever, I could have easily have gone in that direction. So there's there's a certain amount of you know, serendipity to my career. But when I look back, now, you know, everything happens for a reason. And I think that this genre,

this style of filmmaking. You know, I've done both, but I'll never not be a documentarian because I just it's I can say this now. I've been doing it long enough. It's just been like this incredible adventure, you know, where you get to drop into people's lives, whether it's a week or a year or three years or whatever, and just you get to witness things you wouldn't normally ever experience. And so I'm really glad it turned out this way. But it's just kind of funny that was never the intention.

It's not like, you know, I was twelve and running around with a Super eight camera and wanting to make films. You know, do you have like a favorite story or a case that you loved researching that you still can't get out of your mind that you still want answers

on Um, that's a good question. I would answer it differently because anytime I can promote this idea I want to is you know, I did a show about a guy named Richard Glossip who's in on Oklahoma's death row, who is so innocent, And you know, I did a multipart series called Killing Richard Glossip and this guy is that you know, he's They literally sent him to the death chamber three times, and they halted the execution, you know, sometimes within minutes of the execution, once because uh, there

was a stay, once because they had twice actually because they had the wrong chemicals. You know, they literally had the portal in his arm and they were ready to press, you know, kill uh, and they realized they had the

wrong chemicals and they stopped the execution. And then because of all that mishaps with Oklahoma executions, this and some other incidents where they literally had the wrong ingredients, which in a horrifying you know, could you imagine being you know, on a gurney and rolled in to be killed and you know they stop it right, you know, like seconds before, Um, what are the ingredients they have? I'm like, what are they putting? Like rosemary and time in there? Like what's happening? Well,

they use a cocktail of three chemicals. One of those chemicals is supposed to be potassium chloride, but instead they use potassium acetate and all the time that just creates incredible pain and suffering in the person who is being executed. Actually killed somebody before glossip with the wrong chemicals, and then they were about to do it again with clossip

when they suddenly stopped the execution. So not only is this guy innocent, uh, you know, and if you looked into the case details itself, which is so mind boggling that this guy ever could have been put on death row. Uh, he's been sent to the death chamber not once, but three times. And the third time they almost to use the wrong chemicals. I mean, so disturbing that that can even happen. I think the question is like, what's worse than death? Yeah, I think worse than death is surviving

and knowing you're the worst human ever. In Oklahoma, in Oklahoma, they have a procedure where you know, there's two levels of death row. There's like the nicer part of death row in quotation marks because it ain't nice UM where if you're if your execution is still far off, that's your you're in general population. But thirty five days before you're executed, they take you to a different level where and they progressively move you closer and closer to UM

to the actual execution chamber. Uh. And lights are on seven your mattresses like half an inch thick on the floor, so basically want to wear you out so that you just accept death. So poor Richard Glossop um, you know, went through this three times. And because of the mishap with using wrong the wrong ingredients for the lethal injection, Oklahoma for several years has had a moratorium on executions, but now it's been reinstated. Executions are starting again in Oklahoma.

And this guy, Richard Glossop, is you know, high on the list to be executed. So that story haunts me because I feel like I've done everything i can, both filmically and otherwise to help promote the case. And here's a guy who's so clearly innocent that you know, has a good chance of being executed, which happens way too often in this country, which is why we shouldn't have a death penalty. But that's probably a subject for another day. I have to ask one more question. I'm obsessed. Why

are women obsessed with marrying serial killers? On Beth Roum. Why you talking about me like that? Teddy? I mean, and Lea just trying to tow around it, like also a co host on the podcast, but like I need to understand, Like when you talked about Ted Bundy or any of like you see so many beautiful women they're supporting these men who have the usually become pen pals with them, right, and then they why, I don't know, people like to look danger in the eye. It's uh,

I don't have an answer for it. It is. It is a bizarre, bizarre phenomenon. You know, there are you know, you should distinguish those between women who believe in the innocence of somebody who's on You know, do you think people actually believe that Ted Bundy was innocent? No, I don't, but I'm just you know, uh, but he was handsome, according to Lea. Want to make sure people don't confuse it with Damian Echols and his situation because Lori Davis

was an incredible person. When I said before that you know, it wasn't just the Elms that got him out of prison. It's somebody like Lorie, which is a fascinating story. I mean, Paradise Lost was planning was having Paradise Lost in nineties six premiered at Sundance. Uh so that yeah, so it was right, and you know, people were just obsessed with that film. The Q and A s were like insane.

Everyone's stay, you know, you know, it's a film that has people's attentions when literally everyone stays for the Q and A. So it was that kind of a premiere at Sundance, and then the second set of screenings was there used to be a festival, maybe they still have it,

but I can't remember. But it's called New Directors, New Films, which was a joint festival between Museum of Modern Art and the Film Society of Lincoln Center jointly presented New Directors, New Films, and so Paradise Lost had a big screening at Alice tully hall Um four or maybe it was a Museum of Modern Art. I forget, but uh, there was a big screening and at the end of the screening, everybody he stayed. It was a packed house. Everybody stayed.

People follow follow us out because they don't want the Q and A to end. And there was one woman who kept asking me questions and you know, literally following me down to the you know, people are falling back, drifting away, but this one woman continued walking with us, and I did have to go. So I said, here's my number, call me ill. I can tell you more, but I have to go, and she followed up, she

called me. It turns out to be this woman Laurie Davis, who literally, by watching the film just became so fixated with the injustice that was being presented on the screen that she started corresponding with Damien Um. They fell in love. She went down to visit him. They She then gave up her life in New York, moved to Arkansas and became his biggest advocate and eventually got him out of prison along with you know, obvious she was the most she was, you know, a key person and getting him

out of prison. The films obviously helped because the film's cattle eyes people like her Um and they're still together, married and out of prison. And you know, so I, you know, I just wanted to make sure people weren't The reason I was, you know, saying what I said is I don't want her lumped into the people who like fall in love with criminals. And you know, no, I was mainly thinking, like Robert Durst, Ted Bundy, like, yeah,

that is inexplicable to me. You know, but you know, how is it that people think that, you know, Biden lost the election, so, you know, people a wacky things in this world. You know. It's it's also weird that people who don't commit the crimes, we'll say that they are the murderer. Yeah, what is the logic behind that? That also has never made sense to me. Is that wanting fame? Yeah, people want attention, you know, I mean we Yeah, me too. I just post a bikini photo

on Instagram like normal people. Yeah me too. I know I like it, But then you always deleted after because something like that was because then the guy finally text me back, and I feel comfortable baking it down. But you know, it's just a cry for help, Joe. I'm sure this is the most scattered interview you've ever had. We have a million questions for you, you know. I also thought it was interesting not to go back to

um the story in Oklahoma. But it's interesting that there were so many errors with him on death row and you're saying that he's innocent, and you also said that there are no mistakes and everything happens for a reason. So it seems as if maybe it's like the universe is conspiring to help this man get off death row. Could be I mean, look, I don't think everything happens

for a reason. I think in the arc of one's career, or you know, how you choose to look at things, you know, looking back now, I think things in my life happened for a reason, and I'm happy the way they But certainly there's a ton of injustice out there that doesn't happen for well, it does happen for a reason, you know, misguided policies, corrupt politicians, you know. Um, but Richard Glass of situation is quite dire. So I, you know, anyone who cares about justice should look into that, look

in at that. Have you been following the Galane Maxwell case at all? I have, you know, uh, since you know, we made a show about Jeffrey Epstein for Netflix called Filthy rich Oh you did that show too. It was an executive producer and I wasn't the director all of that. He did only best friends. Yeah, question, but I felt like it was a fine question. Joe, Joe felt fine about it. Dmitri's jealous, that's all that's happening. So, in your opinion, do you think there's going to be a

mistrial with glene Um. It's certainly troubling, but I think they're just putting everything on the record for an appeal. I think it would be highly unusual for there to be a mistrial. I think it's in the realm of possibility, but I think it's low. I think they're just kind of you know, they need to do this and posture for an appeal. Um. Do I think it's potentially reversible on appeal. I think that's the bigger fear. I don't think.

I think the chance of a mistrial is low, but I think the chance of reversal on appeal because of this and how it unfolded, I think there is a there is a decent chance of that. Have you ever met her? I have not. Do you think she um cooperates and releases some names at some point? Um? Hard to say, you know, hard to say. I think if I think if that were you know, I think if she was inclined to do that, um, it would have happened already. Yeah. I don't think she's going to either.

I don't think so either. I think she wants to survive. So we'll see. You know, Joe, I know we don't have that much more time with you, So let's bring it back to crime scene, which I'm still blown away by Richard Cottingham talking about the fact that he had over eighty perfect murders. He could be exaggerating by the way. I mean, he definitely had more than he's been charged with, and there is an ongoing task force, UM that is

seeking to identify more victims. Um. You know, could be an exaggeration, you know, but it certainly is enough that it should be deeply disturbing that he was allowed to kill with impunity for so many years. Do you think that there's a part of him that wanted to get caught? You know, that is a good question, and with some yes, you know, Dahmer's activities escalate it and escalated, and uh, he became sloppier and sloppier, and many experts believe that,

you know, it was a cry for help. But cutting him was so cold and calculating and had such a double life that I actually don't think he wanted to get caught. I mean, that's just pure speculation. But um, I don't think so, but often they do. I Mean, it's so wild, just just him walking around Times Square with women's severed heads and hands and bags, saying that he's going to go grab a bite, and the cops

never stopping him. I mean, the amount, but I can't even fathom what type of person you have to be do anything close to that. I mean, it's boggling my mind just thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, and that bad thing. You know, I debated putting it in the show because it's so gruesome, but you know, to me, it's it was a symbol for the disregard and you know how easily he could have been caught. And also the era,

you know, police departments didn't communicate with each other. Forensic you know, pathology and evidence was not what it is today. DNA technology didn't exist. Um, and here you have serial killings right across the river in New Jersey and serial killings in New York, and nobody's connecting the dots. And

you know, it's a very different era. It's why that particular period, you know, was so you know, we we perversely call it the Golden Age of serial killers because from like nineteen sixty nine with Charles Manson too, you know Dahmer who was convicted in the nineties, you know, there was you know that there was just a significant number of killers who just weren't caught and or took

took too long a time to be caught. Um. And in this particular case, there was such indifference by the police that you know, like you know, it's time square or like whatever, you know, which I just find so troubling. And I know we're out of time, but I have one last question. Have you ever come across a killer

or a serial killer who didn't have a troubling childhood? Um? Well, interestingly, Cottingham claims that his childhood was normal, you know, and he doesn't seem to have that much of a troubling childhood, which is interesting, which is why I think he You know, there are a lot of reasons why he is uniquely disturbing to me. But generally speaking, Um, you know, Sam little was his mother tried to abort him, right, I

mean literally same you know, get a grip, dude. You know his father was, I tried to put crews in the trunk. I don't think he heard that part of the story context. No, I mean, dam Dahmer's childhood was actually pretty good, except his parents fought a lot. But my parents fought a lot too, So, um, he wasn't really abused. And you know, Bundy claims that he had the perfect childhood, but you know, people have said otherwise. But Robert durs had a really disturbing childhood. So you

don't think it's like a nature versus nurture. It's it's just you. You are you aren't I think? So. Look, I mean honestly, I had a rough childhood, you know, not to get too deep into it, especially since it's the last question. Well I have one more after this, so go, so go for it. I mean, honestly, I had a tough childhood, you know. And oh my five thirty lights pop. Your hair looks magnificent. It's glowing now on the time. I'm sorry, But look, I had a

tough childhood. And you know I've I've looked into the dark side filmically to exercise my demons, you know. So I don't you know, I don't think. I think you are born that way, you know, and and certain you know environmental issues can trigger it. But look, I think bad parenting was has all sorts of horrible consequences. You know. Not you know, not everyone becomes a serial killer, but bad parenting has horrible, horrible consequences for people. Um, but

I don't think, I mean, I agree with that. I turned into a comedian. That's one of the worst things a parent can do to a kid, you know. Um, but I lost my train of thought because and this is and this is exactly bad parents that you know, bad parenting does result in a lot of bad things, you know, um that we spend our lives working our way through. But I don't think bad parenting produces a

serial killer. I think that is just you know, whether that is just some deeply inexplicable dark side of the human condition that I don't think you can blame on bad parenting skills. You know, I would think bad parenting can can result to disregard for other people's feelings or consequence.

But I think that's I agree, there's a whole other leap to do something like that, and I think there's got to be more to it than just and the and it's you know, there's different reasons, you know, dahm Er, you know, he sought companionship, like he just wanted to

lay with people and have them not leave him. And that was his psychological profile for why he did what he did, like he you know, he you know, obviously what he did was brutal, and I'm not defending it in any way, but you know, of all the serial killers, you know he had, you know, these reasons that were born out of just a deep loneliness, whereas somebody like Richard Cottingham, you know, was wanted to enjoyed giving pain

to people. You know, Dahmer would slip his victims sleeping pill um and wait till they were totally asleep and unconscious before he you know, killed them and did terrible things to them. Again, there's no justification for any of this behavior. But different, different serial killers have different motivations. And Cottingham just enjoyed the pure torture and control of women, um, as did Bundy, you know. So different serial killers have

different reasons for why they do what they do. So it's hard, it's hard to generalize, you know, cutting him gave women sedatives to right, he did, yes, But but when they awakened, they participated it in the torture. Right. Oh god, Well, anyone who hasn't seen it yet, we didn't give away all the details. Trust me, you need to go watch it. It is binge worthy. It will happen whether you want to or not. You won't be able to stop yourself. That's what happened to me. Thank you, Joe,

And just another night glued to my television. My husband gets home from work and I'm like, he's like, you have problems. I'm like, it's work, honey, it's work. It's a good thing. It's only three episodes. It's easy to finish. I was upset, honestly, I was like, what do you mean it's over? But also before we let you go, I've got to just quick quick questions. One is, what do you really think happened at the Cecil Hotel to Elisa Lamb? And why is it that she got lost

in the elevator game? I can get out with you, We'll never get down with Elsa Lamb. I think it was, as the show strongly suggests, it was a sad, tragic accident. I know that's I know that's unsatisfying, but that's not as fun Joe. Okay, but so so mine was like, so I'm gonna ask something else that I can get right,

just to get the answer. I know. Okay, So, Joe, before we wrap up with you for today, you know, we've been so honored to have such a genius mind discuss true crime with us and many other aspects of life. And I'm personally very happy that you came on today. I've been looking forward to this for a while. I'm so glad you're here. I just wanted to see if you had any final thoughts or anything that you wanted

to let people know. UM, any project that you have coming out, that you're excited about, anything that's next for you on the horizon, just anything at all. I would love for you to give us your final thoughts. Well, first of all, it's been quite a thrill to be on the show. We've known each other for a long time,

so it's really I'm really glad to do this. UM. I think you guys asked great questions, so I think I kind of said everything there is to say about about the Cecil Hotel and no, and you know, I generally don't talk about stuff that's coming up, in part because the networks say you can't talk about it until. But luckily the thing I'm about to start has already been announced, which is unusual that we've announced it. But

I'm doing the definitive Bernie made Off story. We gotta have you back on the podcasting a four parties know, did you know anything? You'll have to wait and say now, Joe, we need info when you come back to talk about that. We promised no Cecil hotel. We're We're in a cool way and I'm very excited about it. So that's I'm actually in prep now. When we start shooting in a couple of weeks. You need an insider info. I know nothing, but I'll pretend. I mean, we need a group text show.

We need a group text And is there anything that, um, you know, any other projects maybe that are not documentaries or anything else that you wanted to speak on. I have a couple of scripted things, you know. I enjoy finally being at a place where, you know, I can move between both worlds and occasionally do a scripted project in between the documentaries. Although the documentary stuff is you know, is where my heart is and you know you know so. But I got a scripted thing coming down the bike,

but I can't say what. Everything's coming in Hot for Joe, Oh yeah, oh super hot. I mean, Joe, you're super multitalented. I'm excited to watch and support anything you create with that brain of yours and Dmitri Teddy, any final thoughts for Joe. No, we're just so grateful that you're here. You showed up for us and gave us all the juice, and now I'm going to really wait with like, I need to know everything about Bernie made off, no idea.

You have got lots of new info that hasn't been shared before, so it's going to be a good one. And no and no serial killers. You know, I need a little right from the serial killer thing. Money scandal is just as good to me as killing so hot. Also, do I have a problem, like why am I obsessed with killers and money scandal? What does that mean about? Don't I don't know if you noticed, but true crime seems to be very popular these days. Why do you guys?

Through crime is so popular because it's an escape from my own life and I've been doing that. I've been doing the same thing for thirty years, and now all of a sudden, it's like, you know, very popular. So I'm just curious. And documentaries have never been more popular. Look when I started in this business, you know, when we shot Brothers Keeper in nineteen nineties, when we first started shooting it, Uh god, I was like twenty seven years old. I can't believe it. Um something like that.

But if you didn't sell your documentary to PBS or HBO, you weren't making a documentary. There was no such thing as doc series. Uh, you know, we ended up self just even though it went to Sundance and won a prize, as nobody wanted to distribute Brothers Keeper, so we ended up doing it ourselves, Like we had a handful of millimeter released prints and went from theater to theater, you know,

doing it ourselves. And you know, if four hundred people saw our movie on a weekend, Bruce Snovsky and I would high five each other, like, oh my god, we died and went to heaven. Four hundred people saw a movie, and today something pops on Netflix and you know, twenty million people see it in the first couple of weeks. It's like insane. Well, I know, I know we have to go, but what project are you most proud of? I would have to say, Well, I guess I have

to say Paradise Lost. I mean, all documentarians dream of having some kind of impact on their subjects, um to tangibly actually have participated in helping to get somebody out of prison, three people out of prison, one on death row. You know, that's that doesn't happen very often. So I feel great about that. And we were. You know, all the when we went down to make Paradise Lost, we thought we were making a you know, a kid's killing

kids film. That's what HBO assigned us to do. All the press was these guys are are killers, and so we went down expecting to be making a kid's killing kids film, and all the press, all the local press down there. It's a very different world, no internet whatever. So local press actually was very important, you know, in a market, to influence people's opinion. And the local press was utterly convinced of their guilt and helped feed and

pollute the jurors, the jurors with that false narrative. And we were the only ones who said, hey, something's not right here, you know. So I think I'm proud that we had we didn't. You know. I remember calling up HBO, the executive sheil and Evans, who assigned the film to us, UM, because she just sent an art of Ay, these two kids had just been arrested for these devil worshiping murders. Go look, go look into it. And so, you know, we had no reason to not think they were not guilty.

There's no reason to think they weren't guilty. Um and about too, probably about two or three months into it,

you know. I actually I was interviewing Jason Baldwin, one of the West Memphish three, and I was looking at his tiny little wrists during the interview, and he was declaring his innocence, and I was thinking about how small his risks are and trying to imagine him holding a ten inch errated hunting knife, which is what the prosecution was alleging, and that he had castrated this eight year

old boy and done all these terrible knife wounds. And I just had this epiphany that something's not right here. I don't think this guy is guilty. And I remember calling up the executive at HBO, Sheil and Evans, who is well known in our business, half expecting her to tell us to come home, because I was telling her, no, this is not a kid's killing kids film. I think they got the wrong people. And this is six months

before the trial. Um, and I you know, I half expected her to cancel the film, you know, and she said, no, no, stick with it. Then that sound is more interesting. So I guess I'm proud of that film. To answer your question, because with all the media hype and our mission to tell that same story. We have some clarity and realize these guys, you know, before the trial, uh, we thought these guys were probably innocent. Yeah, So you're the coolest.

I thank you so much. Yeah. And and right before you came on, I gave your CVS received long list of credits to everyone. So do your homework. People, go on IMDb hunt down Joe. Watch all of his films. They're so impactful and special and important. And if you haven't already been watched Crime Scene, the Times Square Killer,

it's on Netflix right now. It's trending. We all already watched it, we all already loved it, and you heard us talk a little bit about it today, but you should watch it to get into the nitty gritty and find out all the details on the case. Joe, it has been an honor, a pleasure of delight. Thank you so much for coming on to Real Time Crime today with us. Thank you for having me and happy to come back anytime. Well, thank you what you wish for. Yes,

thank you. I'm gonna go watch everything else that I haven't seen on your resume, and hopefully about that time the Bernie Maid off stories out. We love you. Reliah should have been my agents. And where can people find you on the internet. Joe Berlinger Films. That's your Instagram. Yes, I don't do Facebook, you never have and I'm glad um. But Instagram is Joe Browning Films or Twitter. It is

just at Joe Browning. So now I'm going to slide into your d m s about all the murders, so just ignore it if you don't want to hear from me. All I'm not going to do a story about your Fannie pack missing. That's a story for another day. Fine, fine, all right, thank you so much. I love you, Joe. Thank you. Bye h wow. Okay, so not to brag, but this was my favorite episode of Real time crime

so far thanks to Joe Burlinger. Love him. Even though he asked you for lunch and not me, I mean, sorry, Teddy, but I think he was. I mean, obviously he was like I if I go to lunch with Leah, I'm hoping he's gonna bring something she's gonna bring sometimes. And Teddy, well, he did hear that I had a troubled childhood, so he's interested to pick my brain and see if I am that subject of this documentary. We all had troubled

childhoods there right now, Leah, that's why we're obsessed. I know. Okay, well, this has been an incredible episode of real time crime. Sorry we didn't get to all the hot topics today, you guys, but I think we can all agree this episode worked out way better this way. God, I love talking to Joe. We could have interviewed him for like nine hour straight. The has been another episode of real

time crime. I've been Lea Lamar and Teddy Meling cap I paused always, I always, there's never not a pause and sometimes Dmitri and guys, if you've got any sort of question, comment, concerned case you think we should look into or thoughts, give us a call, leave us a voicemail at eight six six one crime that's eight six six two one two seven four six three, eight six six twenty one camp eight six six to any one crime that's eight six six two one two seven four

or six three. We promise we will actually get to one of the voicemails next episode. Okay, love you guys. It's real time Crome, real time, I mean, is it actually real time? Just the thing we say, the thing we say? Got it? Okay, see you next week for more real time only on I Heart Radio,