#370 Seth Gehle - Overcoming Trauma & Finding Forgiveness

[SPEAKER_00]: Seth, I heard your interview, which went crazy viral heard by millions of people. [SPEAKER_00]: The story of your childhood and everything you went through is absolutely harrowing. [SPEAKER_02]: There's two moments in my life that kind of told me that I would either write a book, become a speaker, the catalyst for it was just a year or a half ago, and that was [SPEAKER_00]: Seth Gail, welcome to Real Talk with Zube. [SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing, man?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing well. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me on. [SPEAKER_02]: Appreciate it. [SPEAKER_00]: No doubt. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a pleasure. [SPEAKER_00]: Seth, I heard your interview, which went crazy viral heard by millions of people on Soft White underbelly and the story of your childhood and everything you went through is absolutely harrowing. [SPEAKER_00]: So the first question I want to ask you is why did you decide to publicly share your story with so many people?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question. [SPEAKER_02]: I, for a long time, I was alone, or so I thought it seemed that I was alone, I seemed that nobody understood me, nobody would ever understand me, I seemed that nobody had gone through what I had gone through. [SPEAKER_02]: And I always knew there's two times in my life and I can explain this in a moment if you'd like, but there's, there's two moments in my life that kind of told me that I would either write a book, become a speaker,

[SPEAKER_02]: kind of do the thing that I'm doing now. [SPEAKER_02]: But what the the catalyst for it in my adulthood was just a year and a half ago. [SPEAKER_02]: And that was seeing another man share history. [SPEAKER_02]: And a way that was captivating powerful. [SPEAKER_02]: And he was an imposing man. [SPEAKER_02]: His name's Clark Frederick. [SPEAKER_02]: He was also in Saltwood, Annabelle. [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a similar story. [SPEAKER_02]: So when I saw him share his story.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the way he spoke about it, just raw and authentic and real. [SPEAKER_02]: That was really the catalyst that was like Seth it's time like you need to you need to speak up now like it's you're not alone, you know, there are the people I hear like you was a difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: Initially, yes, initially, when I, so the first time I shared my story, I sat down, it was literally just me, my digital coach, and two of my buddies.

[SPEAKER_02]: We sat down in a room, we put on three cameras, and I said, hey guys, I'm just going to tell you my story here, and they didn't even know my story. [SPEAKER_02]: So I sat down in front of three other men who I trained due to with on a daily basis and they were the first three people that are really poured the entire story out to and that interview has since been taken down by YouTube. [SPEAKER_02]: That was like a three and a half hour conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I stumbled over my words, like, you know, my story was kind of all over the place. [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't find the right things to say. [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just difficult talking about the worst things that you've ever gone through, especially in front of three men who've never heard the story before and they're very close to you. [SPEAKER_02]: They'd know you, you know, it's very personal. [SPEAKER_02]: And I cried a lot during that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But as I told it over and over and over again, it's it's like taking a knife out every single time, you know, you're just eventually you don't feel it anymore and it's you're kind of just explaining this process or the story and it's less emotional. [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes sometimes the emotions get there, but for the most part, it's. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a personal story.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's like there's like that level of difficulty every time, but yeah, initially it was it was challenging. [SPEAKER_02]: It was very difficult when I did solve to a vulnerability.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that I was good. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I thought that I was like, I'm fine. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't, there's no emotional parts of this story anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: I could tell it very plainly. [SPEAKER_02]: But as you know, in the end of the interview, I kind of broke down talking about the police officer who, you know, saved me basically. [SPEAKER_02]: But even in that, it was therapeutic.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I talked about it recently where that moment where I cried about that officer was very therapeutic. [SPEAKER_02]: It was very healing to [SPEAKER_02]: to say that it was difficult, it was hard to talk about it, but I felt the pain like leaving my body. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, something I found kind of fascinating with that interview is the moment that made you cry was one of the most joyful parts of the story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I've been doing podcasting for over six years and I've had [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, I mean, hundreds of conversations recorded, but obviously thousands and thousands in person. [SPEAKER_00]: And I've heard a lot of stories from people all over the world and some sad ones, like lots of terrible things. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of bad things that go on in this world. [SPEAKER_00]: And just the honesty and transparency and it was a very visceral interview.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was hard to get through. [SPEAKER_00]: It was very fascinating and it was interesting and I'm glad I listened to it. [SPEAKER_00]: But I was just like, holy moly. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not a particularly emotionally charged person in general. [SPEAKER_00]: But I was, man, I was angry. [SPEAKER_00]: I was upset. [SPEAKER_00]: I was frustrated because the, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so weird. [SPEAKER_00]: We know the bad things happen in this world. [SPEAKER_00]: And we know the bad things happen to men and to women and to children. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, despite having some, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, almost like academic awareness of it unless it's something that someone has sort of like directly been through or they work with people who have been through that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a disconnect which you managed to kind of like break through and just make it very, very real for myself and other people who are listening where I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: It just hit on a different level. [SPEAKER_00]: It hit on a different level and I was just like, geez, like this is [SPEAKER_00]: This is crazy to hear and it's crazy to know that when you hear stories or when you hear certain statistics, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You might hear numbers.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you hear a numbers of X amount of children are abused or X amount of people go through this or that. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's something in our brain which it kind of registers this number, right? [SPEAKER_00]: It registers as a stat and you might be like, oh, that's awful, but it doesn't really have a lot of context.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then when you think that each story is something like what you went through some sort of version or modification of that, then it makes the whole thing a lot more real and a lot more disturbing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I just really felt something like gosh, more people need to, this can't and shouldn't happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: There should not be any sort of [SPEAKER_00]: normalization, let alone acceptance or just kind of a shrug of the shoulders of, you know, oh, well, you know, that's just what people go through. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's interesting you, you say it like that because I, it's interesting that my story comes all in a way that's, it does catch that attention. [SPEAKER_02]: It does [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it makes it real. [SPEAKER_02]: It makes it very real.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas, like you said, we hear these statistics, we hear these like stories, we hear these kind of things that people go through. [SPEAKER_02]: But for some reason, the way that it's whole or the way that it's explained, it doesn't seem, it just doesn't seem like it's actually happening almost.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the way I try to tell my story, these things are happening like next door and it's [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times when you hear somebody tell a story like this, it is so emotional from them that it makes it hard to almost pay attention, it almost makes it hard to like realize the point of the story or the effects of it all.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's why even in that interview, I try to be like very whenever I speak to a crowd, I try to be very calm and collected because I don't [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want people to get caught up in the emotions and then it becomes this like shocking the shock factor. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't tell my story for like a shock factor. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't explain these details to be like gross and gruesome and visceral, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I do tell these, I do tell a lot of the details of what happened to me because I think when people hear about these things that happen to children especially

[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I told you that I was sexually abused as a child, I think a lot of people that registers as like this this one-off moment or like my weird uncle maybe did this or that or happened a couple times and they don't realize like the the real like dark gruesome nature of the violence that children go through even even if you're not talking about sexual abuse you're just talking about just abuse and neglect and general where you talk about children being

[SPEAKER_02]: left at home alone for three or four or five days in a row or their parents are never home at night with them or I was thinking about this morning like when I was, you know, eight, nine, ten years old.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have memories of being in a room and listening to other people yell and scream and the room next to me or downstairs or hearing my my sisters screaming and crying because my mom is hitting them with a belt or you know you just so it takes somebody to be able to explain these moments for people to really understand them and then I mean there's another element to it as well where

[SPEAKER_02]: At the more I pulled my store, the more people kind of reply and comment of like, that was very normal for me. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we are.

[SPEAKER_02]: this we are dismissive of our own pain and suffering and like traumas because it was so like quote unquote normal it was so it was happening so much or it happened to so many people that we think that like oh this is just normal like these things happen and there is truth to that and not all of it is traumatic but a lot of it does explain the way that [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of it does explain why we are the way that we are.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I guess I've had a lot of people that have reached out and not necessarily trolls, you know, not necessarily internet trolls, but just people that are [SPEAKER_02]: saying, you know, Seth, other people have gone through this other people have had worse or I've gone through this and I've had worse or this or that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I look at if I take a quick second look at their profile or look at the way that they live, it doesn't look or doesn't seem to be desirable and I'm not really one to judge, I guess, but

[SPEAKER_02]: When you look at the way people handle relationships nowadays, especially as it relates to marriage and being a parent, when you look at the way that our generation is handling these things or the divorce rate is so high, there's so many single parents, there's all these children that are growing up being up using the glycids till. [SPEAKER_02]: It's literally just proof of how damaging these things are.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, that's part of the reason why I share it as well. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just to explain to people [SPEAKER_02]: Like these things are truly traumatic and life-changing life-altering moments that kids are going through.

[SPEAKER_02]: When we share our stories, we should, somebody needs to be able to share it in a way that's understandable, articulated in a way that people really, like I said, understand like this dark graphic nature that children, some children live in and live in every single day. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's unimaginable. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's almost like impossible to really understand what it's like to live like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you really don't want to, you really don't want to imagine those things, you know, I don't, I don't tell anybody to imagine what this child goes through, but we need to hear these stories sometimes, like I said, because it evaluates [SPEAKER_02]: the severity of the situation. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's so many people that go through this stuff that they can't talk about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: They just, they cannot, and I was one of those people for, you know, fifteen years where I just couldn't, I just couldn't talk about it. [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't tell anybody I was scared. [SPEAKER_02]: I was shamed and, or not shamed, but I felt shamed. [SPEAKER_02]: embarrassment. [SPEAKER_02]: I felt all of those things. [SPEAKER_02]: I was scared to tell anybody what had happened to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm kind of on the other side of that where I'm able to kind of speak freely and openly about it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I almost challenge people to ask me the most difficult questions so that we can get to the root of this and we can get to understanding the psyche of people like me. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's just, it's complicated. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very complicated. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that it's ever going to go away.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's always going to be here where I was going to have these problems.

[SPEAKER_00]: for I think many reasons but sin exists and some sins are far more grave and heinous than others but in the same way that we haven't managed to quote unquote solve murder or solve theft or solve assaults or things these are sadly part of the dark side of the human [SPEAKER_00]: spirit, the human possibility, like we have the capability to do good, incredible good, and we also have the capability to do incredible evil.

[SPEAKER_00]: I often say that human beings are simultaneously the best and worst thing on this planet. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you've raised a lot of interesting points in food for thought already there. [SPEAKER_00]: And as you were speaking, I was thinking as to [SPEAKER_00]: The reason why some of their reactions might be what they are, and I have a couple of ideas. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that for one, terms like abuse and trauma, they cover such a broad range of incidents and possibilities.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if somebody says, [SPEAKER_00]: I was abused or someone says, I'm in an abusive relationship or this person was abusive or I was abused as a child. [SPEAKER_00]: That can range to anything from [SPEAKER_00]: not abuse at all and just, you know, my parents shouted at me once or I got spanked one time or so, right? [SPEAKER_00]: It can range from stuff that's quite literally, it's not even abuse to the most heinous of crimes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the fact that the same word is used for it all, it doesn't really help. [SPEAKER_00]: There are people who say that they got traumatized because they went through, you know, a breakup with someone who's they've been dating for six months. [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are people who say they're traumatized because they were in the military and they went to war and they saw their friends and their buddies get shot up and blown up right next to them.

[SPEAKER_00]: But both of those things are called trauma. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that in this sort of therapeutic culture that we particularly have now in the West, [SPEAKER_00]: These words are kind of being bandied around too much. [SPEAKER_00]: I call it label inflation. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the words are being diluted.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if everything starts to fall under the banner of abuse or everything is being called trauma, how do we separate what someone like yourself went through as a child from the person who kind of heard these words and maybe [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they kind of think it's trendy to say, oh, I was traumatized or I have PTSD or whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: And they're kind of using these words just very loosely and flagrantly. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a danger to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't just happen with these words. [SPEAKER_00]: It happens with other labels. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's a danger because it becomes harder to differentiate the level of seriousness with which to take things. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's definitely a factor. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think another one

[SPEAKER_00]: just the other point I'll make on this is that you know I always say most people are decent or at least trying to be you know most people are not we're all capable of evil and we've all done things that are bad but most people are you know pretty decent people like out there's been to a lot of countries a lot of cities a metal lot of people I've never been to a place and I'm like oh my gosh like the majority of people are are awful so I think because of that

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard to sort of fathom some of these stories because it seems like. [SPEAKER_00]: almost impossible. [SPEAKER_00]: Like when I listen to your story, I'm just like, oh my gosh, like you are failed so many times by so many different adults.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like, okay, there was one person, obviously there's the main criminal here who's the primary abuser, but it's just like, oh my gosh, at every single so many different levels, this is a failing, this is a failing, this is a failing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think as an adult, you look at that and you're just like, geez, like no child should have to [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I should have to have to go through any of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just like one person was [SPEAKER_00]: Messing up here, it's just like layers upon layers upon layers, and it's going on for years and years and years, and I think that's also the part of it that sort of really struck me. [SPEAKER_00]: This wasn't just a one-off type situation. [SPEAKER_00]: This is something over the course of years, and there's other people involved who could have intervened at this point, or at that point, and it just didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you bring up some very, very great points. [SPEAKER_02]: And you might be the only other person I've ever heard talk about that first point you made, because it's a risky thing to say. [SPEAKER_02]: And the sense of like, not everything is trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, we have this blanket, this blanket statement of like, oh, I was traumatized or I was abused. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, what does that mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it reminds me of, I had this cup, I won't get off on a tangent here, but I had a conversation with a, I went to this men's retreat out in LA. [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the guys that was in this group, there was three of us.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of the guys that was in the group was black, and he was born and raised in Michigan, tough place. [SPEAKER_02]: I think like Detroit, Michigan. [SPEAKER_02]: And so tough place to grow up, but he had talked about how he had grown up with racism and battle racism his whole life being a black man in America. [SPEAKER_02]: And so [SPEAKER_02]: I was curious, like, what does that mean? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what does that mean? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, can you explain that to me?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, racist could be a lot of things. [SPEAKER_02]: It could be remarks. [SPEAKER_02]: It could be actions. [SPEAKER_02]: It could be, you know, it could be a, there's this blanket statement of like, I've battled racism well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason why I asked him that was like, look man, the reason why I tell my story the way I tell is because people say they were traumatizing and views all the time and we don't know what we don't understand what that means when somebody said just like you had just said, you know, it could mean all of these things and not to say that not to like diminish anybody's story or whatever, but I think there's value in recognizing that what you went through maybe wasn't trauma or maybe

[SPEAKER_02]: even as it relates to mental diagnosis is now, where you can just go to the doctor and say, hey, I have this problem and the doctor's like, okay, you're depressed, you're anxious and you have bipolar disorder. [SPEAKER_02]: So here take this medicine and you'll be on this medicine for the next twenty years of your life until you're done.

[SPEAKER_02]: I could go to the doctor and tell them all the things that I've gone through and they would diagnose me with whatever I wanted to get. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a problem there and I think there's a problem [SPEAKER_02]: with people that, like you said, it's trendy. [SPEAKER_02]: It's trendy to be depressed and anxious and traumatized. [SPEAKER_02]: It's trendy to have PTSD. [SPEAKER_02]: It's trendy to, you know, and it's like guys, you're not depressed.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're just having a bad day or you're not traumatized. [SPEAKER_02]: You just, you know, you fell down. [SPEAKER_02]: You got hurt or you had a bad day or a bad moment. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, but because of the war we live in and the cancel culture and this like you have to accept everybody's thing for what they're saying to be true.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're it makes it hard to get past these things so people get stuck in this like little well of trauma and they're stuck in there and as long as they have like their trauma to hang on to nobody can tell them anything and they can say whatever they want and be whoever they want and act any kind of way and it's unfortunate like that's like the kind of mold that I'm trying to break where it's like [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, man, I went through some hard times too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have the worst life. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a very difficult life. [SPEAKER_02]: But I also understand and recognize that, like, I've been to other countries. [SPEAKER_02]: I've been all around the world. [SPEAKER_02]: And I've seen kids who grow up with rockets and bombs over their heads every day. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thankful that I didn't grow up like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, at least I was born and raised in a country where I have freedom and the ability to do things that I control my own life when I become an adult. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's a lot of value and recognizing that. [SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, the blanket statement of trauma and abuse. [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not willing, I guess you have to be willing to explain those things.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to be willing to tell people what that means to you or what it was to you. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's a lot to explore there. [SPEAKER_02]: But whenever I do tell my story, that's what makes it so difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: I think for other people is like, [SPEAKER_02]: You want to ask questions and it's my story is truly unbelievable. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, man, like, no, why would you go back? [SPEAKER_02]: Why would you do these things?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why did you let this happen? [SPEAKER_02]: It went on for so long. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how did these things happen? [SPEAKER_02]: It seems it seems unbelievable. [SPEAKER_02]: And if we don't ask the questions to figure out like how these things happen, then we're never going to really truly understand it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And once again, [SPEAKER_02]: with these stories when you ask people these questions you get attacked you know you'll be attacked for like how dare you say that somebody's trauma is not their trauma like everybody's trauma is different everybody reacts to things differently and like all those things are true yes but

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be ignorant and wrong of me, for example, to talk about my military service and tell you that I'm this, you know, I've been to combat and I've been to Afghanistan and I'm severely traumatized because of my deployments. [SPEAKER_02]: It would be so wrong to me to say those things because my deployment was easy. [SPEAKER_02]: I never had to shoot anybody. [SPEAKER_02]: I was never fired at directly. [SPEAKER_02]: There were some rockets that came in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did those things affect me? [SPEAKER_02]: Do they affect me a little bit today? [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Was it this the billitating traumatic event? [SPEAKER_02]: No, it was not. [SPEAKER_02]: But in the world that we live in, I could talk about those things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I've actually even been on a podcast before where the host was [SPEAKER_02]: Pip circling back to that like you are a hero you went to war and and you served and it's like okay I understand I appreciate the I did serve. [SPEAKER_02]: I did a lot of things that a lot of people wouldn't do. [SPEAKER_02]: I understand that and I accept that. [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm not going to talk about my military service. [SPEAKER_02]: Like it was some grand thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I did my job.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not dismissing it, but I'm not.

[SPEAKER_02]: embellishing it I guess is the right way to put it like I'm not going to embellish my deployment and say that all these things happen or it made me feel this kind of way I could I could talk about it that way and I could like make this big story out of it and make everybody emotionally charged about oh wow he he was a childhood trauma survivor and then he went to the military and all this trauma in the military and it just wasn't the case so I'm not going to talk about it that way you know um so I think that the whole trauma thing is

[SPEAKER_02]: it's difficult to get people to understand that not everything is trauma not everything has to be this grand moment and it's okay if it's not it's okay like it if you don't have this crazy story like you're not any worse and I'm not any better for telling my story you know [SPEAKER_00]: That's such a good point because I think the danger with it becoming a trend. [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds even a little bit glib to say that, but there's truth to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It makes it sound like, you know, there might be someone who hears me say that and they think, you know, I'm trying to minimize other people suffering or I'm trying to minimize someone's pain or I'm not taking it seriously. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not that. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we have gradations of things in life. [SPEAKER_00]: So something can be bad. [SPEAKER_00]: We all suffer. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're all human beings. [SPEAKER_00]: We've all been through suffering.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've all been through pain. [SPEAKER_00]: We've all been through joy and happy times in our lives. [SPEAKER_00]: But there are degrees to it. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I remember once seeing, I think it was just like a post on Twitter or X. And you know, it was going viral and it was kind of saying how like every, the essence was everybody has trauma. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I don't like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if I look at my life, thankfully, I would never describe any aspect of my childhood or my adulthood as traumatic. [SPEAKER_00]: because there are people who have been through, like, I mean, firstly, I've had a great life. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very thankful for my life and for my parents. [SPEAKER_00]: But to me, it's like, that would be disrespectful. [SPEAKER_00]: That is disrespectful of the people who have truly, truly been through some horrendous stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think to just kind of come out there and just say, okay, everyone's traumatized. [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's got that one's, I was like, that's just not [SPEAKER_00]: That's just not true.

[SPEAKER_00]: And strangely, in parts of the world where those type of incidents are actually far more common and people truly are at war or people are really, you know, kind of millions and millions of kids are growing up in situations where [SPEAKER_00]: All sorts of horrible things could happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're not they're not sort of viewing things that way and speaking that way, but then I don't know someone growing up middle class in California or in England or whatever and you know their life is just kind of pretty normal childhood, normal teenager and they sort of really [SPEAKER_00]: latch on to all of these terms that I'm like, I think there's a danger with that because then when, you know, we don't have words to describe things properly.

[SPEAKER_00]: You talked about another term earlier on, you know, when you're talking about your friend, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're more term, you know, terms like racism or white supremacy or calling people not sees or all this. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, guys, like tone this down because that's very, very charged and very specific language. [SPEAKER_00]: Like words do have definitions.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're going to go out there and call someone a Nazi just because like you disagree with their politics or you don't like, that's not what that word means. [SPEAKER_00]: It has a real definition. [SPEAKER_00]: The definition carries weight historically and currently. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a big fan of let's try to use the language properly so that we can actually understand each other and so that we're not using terms that are far, far, far too strong to describe something which is moderately unpleasant or uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're your right man and there's a, I think there's a value in [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe not, I don't know if comparing is the right word, but understanding like the perspective, there is like, there is a difference, like you said, there's a, there are degrees to, to just about everything. [SPEAKER_02]: And when we speak in absolutes where we say, you know, everybody has trauma, well, like you said, not, not everybody has trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you make those statements, it's like somebody will hear that and latch on to and say, oh, yeah, I do have trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: This, this thing was traumatic.

[SPEAKER_02]: once again in the in the world we live in who's to say that it's not right because if I get on here and I say I don't know that was trauma then you're going to get mad or going to be offended you're going to you know if I'm a therapist you're not going to come back to me so I've lost my business there you know so there's like there's a lot there with that there are a lot of therapists who

[SPEAKER_02]: They are depending on these people who are traumatized, so to speak, to keep returning to them, to the therapist basically creates this dependence on this person, where this person depends on the therapist to make any kind of decision, any kind of life, whatever moments happen, they have to go to the therapist and consult with the therapist before they do anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, a minute ago, would like the Western idea of like therapy and trauma and putting this blanket over everything. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a lot of times, it's these people that are living very good lives. [SPEAKER_02]: They have access to everything that they need versus these countries that have nothing. [SPEAKER_02]: They have no idea what trauma is. [SPEAKER_02]: They are just living. [SPEAKER_02]: Like it is just their life. [SPEAKER_02]: And it may be traumatic.

[SPEAKER_02]: It does [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think I was kind of relate back to, I guess, Afghanistan just because I've been there. [SPEAKER_02]: There is a clear effect on what that lifestyle does to children. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's just clear that what the how the country is ran and how those people live and the way they act about just humanity and human life in general. [SPEAKER_02]: The way they're living is it's clearly affecting them and it is traumatic.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think so many of those people they don't even realize it because they don't they don't know that the terminology or the words behind it and I think that I guess in America and I mean I've not been to any other. [SPEAKER_02]: What's the word, maybe advanced countries other than America? [SPEAKER_02]: Really, I've been to Europe a little bit around Europe, but not enough to say anything about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in America, we're stuck on the, we, we hear these terms, or we hear these things, and then we can just, we do, we can just latch on to it and say like, oh, I'm a victim. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a victim of this, or I'm a survivor of this. [SPEAKER_02]: And I try not to call myself a survivor or a victim of anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was a victim of certain things as a child, but I'm not, I don't, I try not to use the word survivor as much because I think it does put you in this box, it puts you in this box of like, oh, he's a survivor, like, oh, what happened and it creates this mysterious, like, we need to be careful around him. [SPEAKER_02]: Or we need to walk in eggshells around him and in reality like you don't and because of the things that I've gone through. [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody owes me anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't deserve any kind of like higher level of respect or like caution or [SPEAKER_02]: It's my responsibility, basically, to live the right way and to treat people the right way. [SPEAKER_02]: I have not always been like that. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like most people living with that survivor of victim mentality of, you don't know what I've been through. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't know what I've gone through. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't understand me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then I have act a certain way or be a certain way. [SPEAKER_02]: And there are a lot of people that live like that. [SPEAKER_02]: But it all kind of circles back to that culture. [SPEAKER_02]: that we live in now, you know, where you can't tell anybody, you can't have like an opposing opinion or even just a challenging opinion of like, hey, would you call that trauma? [SPEAKER_02]: Would you call that abuse?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, especially as far as, you know, sexual abuse goes, there's a, there's still a child on child abuse. [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: There are kids that abuse other children. [SPEAKER_02]: So to speak, well, there are stories out there where maybe a five year old and another five year old. [SPEAKER_02]: Two boys maybe in a closet kind of experience or do some things and maybe one of those kids is the perpetrator like one of those kids did.

[SPEAKER_02]: start the event, or was the catalyst to the event or whatever, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm kind of speaking on a specific story that I know of, and I know this kid, or I know this guy. [SPEAKER_02]: Now, and I have even gone to him, and I have questioned him, like, hey, man, like, because whenever this guy would tell his story, he calls this kid in a buzer, and he calls himself a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, for me to label another child as an abuser. [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it would have to be something like a grieges and just violent, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: And while this kid did perform sexual acts on another child, they were both five years old. [SPEAKER_02]: It only happened a few times.

[SPEAKER_02]: So for me to call it abuse, it just doesn't make sense to me, but by definition, it is, if you looked up the definition of childhood sexual abuse or child sexual abuse, it would fit in that definition. [SPEAKER_02]: Like you said, it kind of washes these terms that we have of trauma and abuse of well, if that's abuse and this is abuse and this is abuse and this is abuse and this is a abuse and this is trauma and this is trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so anyways, I did challenge that kid that I asked them I said, you know, like, would you like you still refer to that guy as your abuser and I think that's. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's wrong, man. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that that kid deserves that label as a abuser for the things that he did. [SPEAKER_02]: He was clearly a victim himself at some point. [SPEAKER_02]: He was doing what likely it happened to him just on you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you both were the same age, you were both were five years old, you know, and not to dismiss a story or an event. [SPEAKER_02]: But there is something to be said about intensity and the intensity and the [SPEAKER_02]: was the word for consistency of trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: So children, you can stress a child out. [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay to be stressed out. [SPEAKER_02]: And we do this through controlled efforts, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like sports or maybe chores around the house or discipline or whatever it is. [SPEAKER_02]: Children need adversity. [SPEAKER_02]: They need challenges. [SPEAKER_02]: They need that level of stress. [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is in a controlled fashion, [SPEAKER_02]: but the consistency and the intensity of that is kind of what turns it into this traumatic moment, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's an extremely intense moment for just even one time, like as an adult, maybe if a adult woman or man is raped, that's a very, very intense moment. [SPEAKER_02]: But if it only happens one time and it's just like the really condensed moment, [SPEAKER_02]: which it usually is as far as that goes.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's still traumatic, but it's easier to overcome that than it is for someone who maybe like me, for example, who went through like pretty intense stuff for almost sixteen years. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like high level of stress on this child for such a long time. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's something to be said about that, about the consistency and the intensity of whatever stressful

[SPEAKER_02]: environment or situation or whatever you're going through, understanding that same thing with the, that's why reason why I don't talk about my deployments like there's some grand thing because my deployments, I was deployed one time, it was nine months, it was long, but it wasn't this, it wasn't this violent intense deployment and I have gratitude about that, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I guess there's there are levels to it, man.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's degrees to it. [SPEAKER_02]: And we have to be able to accept that and acknowledge it. [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't mean that it wasn't challenging. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just you've gotten over this or you can get through this. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to hang on to this thing and hang on to it for the rest of your life, basically. [SPEAKER_00]: A hundred percent. [SPEAKER_00]: Something can be wrong. [SPEAKER_00]: Something can be messed up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there shouldn't be any certainly shouldn't be any type of competition in any direction. [SPEAKER_00]: But there also shouldn't be a fence in just recognizing that there are degrees of things. [SPEAKER_00]: It's why not every crime carries the same penalty because we recognize that some things are worse. [SPEAKER_00]: Two things can be bad. [SPEAKER_00]: Two things can even be horrible, but one can be more horrible than the other.

[SPEAKER_00]: Seth, I'm curious to ask you, as someone who would have a very, very valid, let's say, reason to carry the victim label and wear it proudly and even to be extraordinarily angry at the world. [SPEAKER_00]: and just be a bitter resentful person. [SPEAKER_00]: Like with what you went through, I don't think anyone would be sort of shocked or necessarily hold it against you.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you kind of went down one of those lanes, or either it's the, you know, what was me, I'm a permanent victim, or just the bitter, very angry, just mad at the world type. [SPEAKER_00]: Like what you went through is [SPEAKER_00]: as valid a reason for that as may exist. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious as to what has led to the stoicism that you have now, because you have this era of peace and confidence and clarity based on your previous interviews, which I've seen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I get the picture that you didn't always have that, but I'm curious as to how you've reached the point of [SPEAKER_00]: let's say peace and stoicism that you're at now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's, it's very, very good question and complicated complicated as well. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I have to admit that I wouldn't be here without the people that have helped me be here. [SPEAKER_02]: So first off, [SPEAKER_02]: I am so fortunate, so lucky that throughout my whole life, I always kind of have felt like I have a hole in the bottom of my cup and it's just like I'm like running out of love or life or it's almost empty all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And throughout my life, every time that cup was like getting to the bottom and it was just about empty, somebody would come through and pour a little bit of love into my heart and kind of keep me going. [SPEAKER_02]: While I was in those moments of childhood and even my early adulthood where I feel like the world was just against me, it felt like I was all alone. [SPEAKER_02]: It felt like nobody was there.

[SPEAKER_02]: It felt like all of that pain and just trauma and it was just like my destiny. [SPEAKER_02]: This was the way my life was going to be forever. [SPEAKER_02]: As I have reflected on my story and all the situations that I've been in, that reflection has allowed me to realize, oh, no, these people were here for you. [SPEAKER_02]: These people did try to help you and you didn't take that help sometimes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So first off, I think having that community, having people support you and help you get through these things. [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't be here without those people. [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of times when I share my story, a lot of people kind of pass that same question and then they'll even challenge me with it of, well, Seth, you didn't become an abuser, you didn't become a pedophile or you didn't become addicted to drugs or alcohol.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you feel like how do you forgive anybody who's done it to you or treated you that way?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I often talk about [SPEAKER_02]: For me, the key to my like hope and healing and that this the life that I live now is this ability to forgive so How do you live how do you get past all that like like that trauma well that that trauma is like this it's like this cloud or the shadow or it's like this sled of rocks that you're pulling behind you and as long as you hang on to that [SPEAKER_02]: Like you said, I have ever, I have, these are all of my excuses.

[SPEAKER_02]: These are all the reasons that I have in the world to be the man that I want to be, whether it's good or bad. [SPEAKER_02]: So I can look at all these reasons behind me and say, like, look man, how would you act if you went through this? [SPEAKER_02]: How would you be if you went through this? [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like that for a long time. [SPEAKER_02]: Every time something happened, I would say, well, look at all the things that I've been through.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't understand. [SPEAKER_02]: And eventually you have to take responsibility of those things and say, you have to forgive them. [SPEAKER_02]: You have to just say, you know what?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not I'm not using this anymore and I have I've forgiven every single person who's ever hurt me in my life and some people will say I could never forgive that person I could never forgive that person for and I know I know there are some things that probably are truly unforgivable but as it relates to me everything that I went through I can forgive that person and I thank [SPEAKER_02]: Some people have challenges with forgiveness.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the challenges in that forgiveness are sometimes it's ego. [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's like, I would never, and once again, this is to the Western culture of like, ego of, I would never let anybody treat me that way. [SPEAKER_02]: I would never let a man talk to me that way. [SPEAKER_02]: I would never let my husband treat me that way or my father or my mother or my friend or, you know, I would never let somebody abuse me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I would have ran away or I would have maybe killed that person or [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't have gone back. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's this ego, there's this inflated ego of like how proud you are of yourself. [SPEAKER_02]: And so therefore you can't forgive this person because it's like vulnerability, you know, to just say like, it's okay, man, like this person messed up.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the ego is the challenge. [SPEAKER_02]: What I often offer people to do is to think about that person who hurts you. [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times we look at people like that and we say, what's wrong with that person? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, why did that person do that to me? [SPEAKER_02]: Or why did that person do whatever they did? [SPEAKER_02]: That was evil and terrible.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think a better question and this comes from a book that's called, what happened to you? [SPEAKER_02]: And it's by Dr. Bruce Perry and he talks about [SPEAKER_02]: Instead of like, why is this person that way? [SPEAKER_02]: It's what happened to that person. [SPEAKER_02]: Something happened to that person that turned them into the person that they are today. [SPEAKER_02]: And you and I or babies at one point. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we were just innocent little children.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we knew nothing evil of the world. [SPEAKER_02]: But unfortunately, for you, maybe it was good things for me was bad things. [SPEAKER_02]: And for the person who hurt me, like the people that hurt me in my life, they were once children. [SPEAKER_02]: something happened to them that turned them into the person that they were. [SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, they probably did not have the same support system that I have.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I can't sit here and hold this hate and resentment for somebody who was dealt a bad hand of cards and had no help and had no way to get out of it. [SPEAKER_02]: Especially when you look at like my parents, they grew up in a different generation. [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't have the social services or the education or social media like these outlets or people can like you can just get on your phone and just get some education for free on how to overcome these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: The ability to forgive comes from that. [SPEAKER_02]: It comes from understanding that this person is just a human being who is no different than I am. [SPEAKER_02]: I just happen to have some support in some help and a little bit more love in my life than they did, which is the reason why they ended up being the person that they work to me, like hurting me and abusing me and things like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So forgiveness for me has been like the biggest thing because when you forgive it, like when you look back at all the things you've been through, [SPEAKER_02]: and you're tired of living by that identity of being that person, you know, I don't walk up to people and tell them my name is Seth and I'm a survivor of childhood trauma neglect and you know, it's not who I am.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a name is Seth, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a speaker, I'm an author, I do digital and I don't know, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I have like my own identity, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I don't identify with all of these things that I've gone through, especially these negative things, maybe some of the positive things, sure, but the negativity, there's no value [SPEAKER_02]: There's no value in that.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no value in identifying with these traumatic moments, or at least there's not as much, maybe, value as just identifying and living by those things that you've gone through. [SPEAKER_02]: So the forgiveness has been like the biggest thing for me. [SPEAKER_02]: I try to challenge people to forgive and they're like, well, how do you do it? [SPEAKER_02]: And I just tell them, just say it. [SPEAKER_02]: Just start saying it out loud every day.

[SPEAKER_02]: I tell my wife that's all the time about a lot of different things with your mindset and your mentality. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like physically verbally verbalized these things out loud because you you will believe whatever you're saying you know if you talk if you talk negatively about yourself if you talk negatively about your life

[SPEAKER_02]: You will live this negative life. [SPEAKER_02]: There's the like sports psychology is very similar to this. [SPEAKER_02]: You have to manifest.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you go out there and you manifest at when and you manifest like how these players are going to happen and what's going to happen if you know this you know you catch the ball here or you're in this area of the court or the field like what happens if this player is in this position you manifest all these things in your head and so that when they when I happen in front of you it's like okay I know what to do now you know and

[SPEAKER_02]: If the positivity works, like their sports psychology, the research behind this stuff where they go and talk to these athletes about manifesting the wind and talking about the situation and playing it over in your head, if all of that positive talk works, I mean, that's just proof that the negative talk works as well, you know, in the reverse direction, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So many people that I talk to, man, they're just like, [SPEAKER_02]: I can't do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can't be like you. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't get outside. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't, you know, it's like, no, you can. [SPEAKER_02]: You're just choosing not to. [SPEAKER_02]: You can forgive. [SPEAKER_02]: You're just choosing not to. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not ever going to be this like, linear path.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're never going to be like, okay, I'm better now. [SPEAKER_02]: I still have my days that I struggle. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think that I guess the last thing I'll say to that point is we put this healing, this like healing thing. [SPEAKER_02]: as it's like this metric, like it like a sales metric, like I'll hit this one day and when I hit it, I'm good. [SPEAKER_02]: And so we go to therapy for three months and we've gone to therapy for three months and I'm not healed yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so like why am I even going? [SPEAKER_02]: And we're looking for this like set like value. [SPEAKER_02]: Like once I get to this point, I'll be healed. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not there. [SPEAKER_02]: It's this continuous process for really the rest of your life.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you've gone through a lot of hard times, a lot of trauma, it's probably gonna take a little bit longer to get to some elevated, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: form of healing or healed process or feeling it just takes a lot of time it takes a lot of work and effort and I mean it can be discouraging you know you you want to fix your marriage [SPEAKER_02]: And you start treating your wife better. [SPEAKER_02]: And everything's really good for like a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you get new and argument. [SPEAKER_02]: And then what happens? [SPEAKER_02]: You're in your head, right? [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, man, like, why did I even try? [SPEAKER_02]: Why did I even try to do this? [SPEAKER_02]: Why did I even try to fix this? [SPEAKER_02]: You're addicted to drugs or alcohol, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And you're clean for three days. [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have that edge and then you use. [SPEAKER_02]: And so what do you do?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're just like, why do I even try to be better? [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't I even try to get better? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to go right back to it. [SPEAKER_02]: And then you're stuck in that pit. [SPEAKER_02]: So [SPEAKER_02]: If you're able to recognize that, like, I'm going to fail again. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm going to lose. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to fall down. [SPEAKER_02]: That's for me. [SPEAKER_02]: That's that works for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I know that I'm going to mess up in the next week or two or the next month or two. [SPEAKER_02]: I know it's going to happen. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to have a setback, a failure, but it's all just a learning opportunity, a learning curve. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to get back up and get back on the saddle. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is part of the process. [SPEAKER_02]: This is what it takes.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a it's a it's a it's a it's a multi layer like faceted thing. [SPEAKER_02]: But you just have to be willing to get mad arena and fight man and people are going to trip. [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to talk shit if you. [SPEAKER_02]: Excuse me. [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to they're going to say things if you they're going to they're going to talk if you do or you don't right. [SPEAKER_02]: If you're in the arena you're fighting.

[SPEAKER_02]: You win you could have done better and if you lose what you should have done this you know so. [SPEAKER_00]: Man you you bring up so many good points. [SPEAKER_00]: I have a question. [SPEAKER_00]: which is something that I often ponder, but due to your statements on forgiveness and asking the question of what happened to someone for them to behave and be a certain way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I often wonder and I'm curious to get your take on, how do you balance? [SPEAKER_00]: How do you, how do we as a society balance the concepts of understanding [SPEAKER_00]: how people's backgrounds and environments and experiences shape them and the concept of personal responsibility and accountability.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because as we've said, I mean, you have taken extreme responsibility and accountability and you're able to get on with your life and be successful in your career [SPEAKER_00]: have your family and raise children and you went through some of the most horrible stuff in your past and you knew childhood and it happened for years. [SPEAKER_00]: And yet you took that responsibility. [SPEAKER_00]: You're not using that as an excuse and you're going that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: At the same time, there could be another version of Seth who didn't go that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I let's say even went on to become a criminal yourself and get involved in all this horrible awful self and [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, we, someone could look at that and recognize, okay, well, you know, this makes sense given his childhood or maybe we can understand it from these terms, but then you're not quite putting the [SPEAKER_00]: necessary responsibility and accountability on that person.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I, hey, well, lots of people go through all sorts of terrible stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not an excuse to become a criminal. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not an excuse to become an abuser. [SPEAKER_00]: And so on. [SPEAKER_00]: So how do we balance those things, which are there's like a degree of truth to both of them for sure? [SPEAKER_00]: How do we navigate that? [SPEAKER_02]: That's a million dollar question right there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think what helps is having a level of empathy for people. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's probably empathy and ego. [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to be able to put yourself in that person's shoes. [SPEAKER_02]: For a long time, I looked at other people the same way I was just talking about like, well, I never became an addict. [SPEAKER_02]: I never became an alcoholic. [SPEAKER_02]: I never, you know, I never did that. [SPEAKER_02]: I never did anything wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: So why can't you? [SPEAKER_02]: Why can't you fix yourself on the situation? [SPEAKER_02]: Be responsible, whatever, right? [SPEAKER_02]: all the buzzwords that you can attack somebody with for using their victimhood. [SPEAKER_02]: The more I've learned about trauma, the more I've learned about especially the effects of childhood trauma, the more I've realized like some of these things are some situations are truly insurmountable.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it just there are some things that some people how do you get through that man? [SPEAKER_02]: Like when when you are [SPEAKER_02]: turned into, for example, a, when you're trafficked, sex trafficked at a, at a young age, eight, nine, ten years old, how do you recover from that? [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and especially if it goes on for a long time, how do you recover from that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know, I'd have to ask somebody like that, like, how did you get through that, like, like, what's, what's, what's keeping you going, you know? [SPEAKER_02]: So now, [SPEAKER_02]: the path that I kind of went down in this last year is that I almost kind of succumb to that ultimate empathetic person who [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't matter what somebody went through, I was just like, yeah, man, that's tough. [SPEAKER_02]: I understand why you are the way you are.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then you start to get away from that responsibility piece where you're just like, like you were just saying, you just feel so bad for this person that it's like, man, I get it. [SPEAKER_02]: I understand that's why you are and it's not your fault. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not their fault, but that's where you have to realize like, you know, it's not your fault. [SPEAKER_02]: What happened to you?

[SPEAKER_02]: I understand why you are the way you are, but you need to take some responsibility now and start doing the right things. [SPEAKER_02]: I think something that holds people back to is maybe their value, like they don't value themselves. [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you don't value yourself or you don't think you hold any value, why would you try to be better?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, if you don't deserve things and you're not going to go after them, you know, you just kind of feel that way. [SPEAKER_02]: You feel like worthless. [SPEAKER_02]: But telling somebody that they, that balance between [SPEAKER_02]: understanding what they went through and then responsibility it's tough.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that we have so much ego in ourselves that like I did why I looked at people and I said I got out of it like why can't you so you have to kind of remove that ego as well. [SPEAKER_02]: I have to remove the ego when I'm looking at other people and saying like. [SPEAKER_02]: I get it. [SPEAKER_02]: I know where they're coming from. [SPEAKER_02]: Some people just takes longer. [SPEAKER_02]: Some people never get out of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that the things you go through, they're never really, never really an excuse to be a horrible person or to do horrible things. [SPEAKER_02]: But some of those things, like, they really do change the way you're brain operates.

[SPEAKER_02]: They really do change the, I mean, there are studies that have shown with adverse childhood experiences that, you know, you're your, [SPEAKER_02]: your likelihood of becoming this or that is multiplied by ten or fifteen or twenty, whatever it is, whether it's an attic, a abuser, whatever it is, heart diseases, and there have been cases where some people have literally just died of heart diseases, and they're completely healthy people.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they were the level of stress that they lived under as a child was so long and so intense that it messes up your development as a human. [SPEAKER_02]: And so as you become an adult, there are some things that are, I mean, they may be irreversible because of the level of stress that this child who's developing and growing is going through.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the more you kind of understand these things, that more you can have some empathy for people and understand why they are the way they are as adults. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, to that point, I guess some of these things, like I said, there are truly insurmountable.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so when we get through something, I think there's value in recognizing that, hey, man, what you with the was tough, but where you are right now, like you're in a place to grow, you're in a place to be better to do better. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it's wise if you take that opportunity to say, you know what, I'm done living like this, I'm done living this horrible life. [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be responsible, I want to take some responsibility and start moving forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that looks a little bit different for everybody. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think you have to realize that there's value in you. [SPEAKER_02]: You are worthy. [SPEAKER_02]: There are people that are going to love you. [SPEAKER_02]: But you have to create some evidence of that. [SPEAKER_02]: You have to behave in a certain way to believe those things. [SPEAKER_02]: For me, for me, I behaved in a way that was evident that I could accomplish things.

[SPEAKER_02]: I joined the military, I ran a bunch of ultramarathons, I wrote a book, public speaker, father, husband, I behaved in a way. [SPEAKER_02]: I did a lot of things that were admirable or inspiring maybe, but for all those things, I didn't have the belief system in my head of like, [SPEAKER_02]: these things matter. [SPEAKER_02]: Every time I would accomplish something, it just wasn't enough or it just, it didn't matter because of my past, my story, you know, it just, it didn't matter.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I had to like, I had to build my belief system with the behaviors. [SPEAKER_02]: I had to, you know, to both of them at the same time. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's, it's hard to balance, it's hard to balance that. [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to, man, humans are the most complicated [SPEAKER_02]: You know, things in the world, man, they're just, they're just, it's crazy, man. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so crazy how different each and every one of us are.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the same regard where we're just as much alike, you know, we all have our own problems and challenges. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just like a very complicated answer, you know, I think. [SPEAKER_02]: Love, man, love and empathy is gonna do more for us than anything else. [SPEAKER_02]: We are so polarizing, we are so ready to attack into blame and to suggest whatever versus just like loving people through, whatever problems are going through.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't be here if my wife did not love me through all of the freaking stupid things that I've done to her, to my family, you know, in my life. [SPEAKER_02]: I just wouldn't be here, man. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, I mean, I was telling her that like a week or two ago, I was telling her, you know, I'm no different, like I said a minute ago, I'm no different than everybody else.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've just had people who love me like relentlessly, you know, and just refuse to give up on me. [SPEAKER_02]: With that though, I have also changed. [SPEAKER_02]: Every single one of these moments I have taken that opportunity of like, okay, I'm gonna do better now. [SPEAKER_02]: I will do better now. [SPEAKER_02]: I will make it effort to be better from this point forward. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just hard, man. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I try to share my story so that people know that it is possible, like it is possible to go through these things and to overcome it and to survive and to live a life worth living and to be happy and positive. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the reason why I share my story is it's hard, it's complicated, but it's possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: How is your life changed since going public with your story and doing all of these interviews and speaking engagements over the years? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so, you know, I, while I've only been telling my story now for about a year and a half, I guess, publicly. [SPEAKER_02]: But it's crazy, man.

[SPEAKER_02]: I get a lot of messages of like, [SPEAKER_02]: Seth, you have no idea what your story means to me or you have no idea, you know, how, yeah, I guess what your story means to me or you were able to say the words that I could never find and I've healed so much through your story and I can't thank you enough and I think the best thing about all of this is I can look at those messages. [SPEAKER_02]: I can tell those people, no, I do understand.

[SPEAKER_02]: I understand exactly what you're saying because I was once in your shoes where [SPEAKER_02]: I message somebody on social media and said, you have no idea what that interview meant to me. [SPEAKER_02]: Like your words that you were speaking about whatever helped me heal so much. [SPEAKER_02]: And so for me to be on the receiving end of those messages, it's humbling. [SPEAKER_02]: It's humbling. [SPEAKER_02]: I have a level of gratitude that is just indescribable.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I can't [SPEAKER_02]: My wife asked me the other day too. [SPEAKER_02]: She said, you know, why do you feel like you have to respond to everybody? [SPEAKER_02]: Why do you feel like you have to respond to all the emails and all the messages? [SPEAKER_02]: And I told her, I said, you know, all of my said, because I know how much it means. [SPEAKER_02]: When that person fires back to you and they're like, hey, man, I get it. [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, thanks for listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for watching. [SPEAKER_02]: Keep going. [SPEAKER_02]: Like just little messages, just acknowledging the fact that I've reached out to you, it means so freaking much to be man. [SPEAKER_02]: And so when people reach out to me as long as it deems a response, I will respond back to them as much as I can. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm kind of flooded with it, but I do take a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do take time out of my day to sit down and just make an effort to respond to these people with a heartfelt message. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's crazy, man. [SPEAKER_02]: A year and a half ago, I had deleted my book for the third time. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm not going to write this thing. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, nobody cares, nobody's going to listen, nobody's going to watch it, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: And I finally sat down and decided to say, you know what, this is it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to publish this book. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to write this story. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't care. [SPEAKER_02]: It helps one person or a hundred people and lo and behold, you know, two, three months after I published my book. [SPEAKER_02]: I became an Amazon best seller and several categories. [SPEAKER_02]: I hit in the top one thousand books on Amazon, which is kind of crazy because there's over forty four million books.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in addition to all that, like I have people who request me to write them a personalized message and ship out this book, you know, to them. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just, I'm so fortunate, man. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just fortunate. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I have gratitude and [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just blessed to be here. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm lucky to be here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think my life has changed like a like you imagine maybe a celebrity, you know, I would never call myself a celebrity or my my daughter asked me if I'm famous now and I don't think I'm I'm nowhere I'm nowhere near what she thinks I might be, but I know that's you know some people call me hero and [SPEAKER_02]: I know what that feels like.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know what it feels like to look at somebody like a hero because I look at other people like they're my heroes and they don't have massive followings. [SPEAKER_02]: They may not even have social media, but they're my heroes, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: So being able to recognize that has been really cool. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's probably the biggest life-changing thing for me is understanding how much my story's helped other people.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just feels so, it's incredible. [SPEAKER_02]: It's incredible. [SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome, man. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, firstly, [SPEAKER_00]: and response to that, congratulations. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm proud of you. [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't had a chance to meet you and shake your hand yet, but from the small interaction we've already had, I'm proud of this guy. [SPEAKER_00]: I love hearing this. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm smiling as you're saying a lot of these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's really interesting, regardless of what your background and message is, putting things out there publicly in this online and social media world. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've been doing this my entire life in some form. [SPEAKER_00]: Now my entire adult life, you know, starting out with just music, but then also moving into podcasts and writing and just post social media posts and so on. [SPEAKER_00]: It's been like twenty years.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the strongest things that I've learned is just the power of letting people know that they're not alone. [SPEAKER_00]: That is tremendous. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's often [SPEAKER_00]: underestimated just how many people are going through stuff and how much loneliness there is. [SPEAKER_00]: And on a day-to-day basis, there's like three to four million people on social media, billions of people every week. [SPEAKER_00]: And everyone is in a different situation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there are people who have been through things somewhere along the lines of what you went through as a child and some facet. [SPEAKER_00]: They relate to it. [SPEAKER_00]: There's other people, you know, majority of people have not, have not been through something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: But by listening to it, it builds empathy. [SPEAKER_00]: It builds understanding. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, geez, like, this is something that builds awareness.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, man, this is something people really go through when you can still take something from it, whether you directly relate or not. [SPEAKER_00]: So that sense of just letting people know, like, look, you're not alone. [SPEAKER_00]: And then also just [SPEAKER_00]: offering people hope and encouragement. [SPEAKER_00]: I think there are so many people in their day to day life in their real world surroundings. [SPEAKER_00]: They just don't get any encouragement.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't get a lot of words of positivity sadly. [SPEAKER_00]: No one is there motivating them or uplifting them and it might seem kind of strange to most people that someone would like go on the internet, go on YouTube or go on X or go on Instagram to get like motivation or to find someone to inspire them or to give them a message or something and

[SPEAKER_00]: I've had so many moments that, you know, whether it's bumping into a supporter in the real world or receiving a certain type of DM with like, these long DMs where people are just telling you, telling you their story and telling you the impact and you're just like, man, I didn't, you know, I've had tweets that I wrote like on the toilet. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it went viral and it turned out that it just came across that person's screen at the right time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just like the message that they needed to get through something difficult where they heard this song and they heard this podcast at the right time. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, um, it's brilliant. [SPEAKER_00]: And I totally relate to you with the, uh, you know, trying to get back to every single person because for the past, for the past like, eighteen years or whatever, I've been online. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I've been trying to do the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it gets harder and harder. [SPEAKER_00]: and the following grows and someone might feel like, dude, just post and ghost, like, why are you still trying to respond? [SPEAKER_00]: And like, man, it's the same reason I was trying to do this ten years ago, fifteen years ago, like it hasn't changed. [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, the number has gone up.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if someone, you know, writes me something and it's heartfelt and like, I feel an obligation to at least acknowledge at a minimum, at least acknowledge that I saw the message and that I read it. [SPEAKER_00]: And that is, to me, the best part of [SPEAKER_00]: the internet world, the ability to just connect with people like that, the ability for us to have this conversation across thousands of miles. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I can post a link.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we can share this to people. [SPEAKER_00]: To me, that's just magical. [SPEAKER_00]: I know there are so many complaints of the internet, smartphone, social media. [SPEAKER_00]: And I fully understand it. [SPEAKER_00]: I understand it more than most people do. [SPEAKER_00]: But on the positive side, like this didn't used to be possible. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like this didn't used to be possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: There would have been no way how on earth, even twenty years ago, let alone fifty years ago, how would you have shared your message with millions of people across, you know, I would wager that people in over a hundred fifty different countries have probably heard that. [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I just think it's, I love what you're doing and I'm curious to know actually before I ask [SPEAKER_00]: Before I ask, I have two more questions I want to ask you, one's kind of a closing question, but before that one, I know that you're married and you're a father.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious to know how either of those things, whether it's getting married or becoming a father or the combination, how that has, what sort of insight has that given you on your own childhood? [SPEAKER_02]: For a lot of people, it's very difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: For a lot of people being married, for me, it's difficult too. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more difficult for others. [SPEAKER_02]: Being married has been a very, very challenging for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel incredible as it stands today with my marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel amazing. [SPEAKER_02]: And like most marriages, I had a very like puppy dog era of like the first year or two, me, my wife, or just, you know, we're saturated with each other. [SPEAKER_02]: But then the the feelings of like self-worth kind of took over and this like imposter syndrome. [SPEAKER_02]: My whole life all I wanted and like most people like me, they just want a husband or a wife.

[SPEAKER_02]: They want this beautiful like typical American upbringing, a flag on the front porch, German shepherd in the front yard and the kids and the white pick up fence, like you want all of those things. [SPEAKER_02]: And then as soon as I got those things, I mean, I had it all. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was in the eighty second airborne division and the army with a German shepherd, a wife and a daughter. [SPEAKER_02]: literally picture book, you know, and I felt so out of place.

[SPEAKER_02]: I felt just I didn't deserve it, you know, I felt shame and just that didn't that imposter syndrome, you know, and that's that's where that belief system like I was talking about earlier plays and you just don't believe these things about yourself are that you that you deserve these things or you you feel sometimes you feel selfish or

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're disrespecting the people that you've grown up with, maybe it's your family or friends, because like you have gone on live this incredible life, but they're still stuck in the trenches. [SPEAKER_02]: So you feel those kind of ways. [SPEAKER_02]: So the marriage has been very difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: I know you know George, I kind of found you through George. [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, worth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And George kind of really helped me kind of reframe my thoughts on my wife and my marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: And he really helped me get through a lot of that about a year ago. [SPEAKER_02]: But as it relates to being a father, especially parenting, being a father to me has been very natural. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not been this like challenging thing or had to like navigate and like figure out how to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: For me being a father's very natural, that's probably partially due to my amateur nature and loving to laugh and joke and play. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so I chase the kids around and I scare them and I take a lumb and I'm that father who loves to have fun with my kids. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been very easy for me that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the parts that are like truly changing like life changing and just emotionally powerful moments for me are when I put my kids to bed and I like lay on the bedside with them and I hug them and I and I give them kisses and I tell them I love you so much and I'm so proud of you. [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm just so thankful for you and I tell them all like all of these positive affirmations every night before bed.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's gotten to the point now where I can pull up the camera and my son's room and every single night. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll lay down next to him and he'll say, Daddy, I already know what you're going to tell me and I'll tell him, okay, what is it? [SPEAKER_02]: You know, let's say it on three. [SPEAKER_02]: One, two, three. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so proud of you as what he'll say. [SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, I know you're proud of me. [SPEAKER_02]: You tell me every night, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: For a long time, man, that really hurt me to put my son to bed that way because especially when he started talking to the stuff because I would like hold him and look at him and I would just I look at myself and I'm like, man, if I could have had somebody like a mama or a dad, hold me every night or when I was scared, if I could just get up and go get in there bed with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, in the middle of the night, like I never had those things as a kid. [SPEAKER_02]: And so like those moments, man, they're just they're magical. [SPEAKER_02]: being able to teach my son how to write a bike, being able to be out there and we have this video that my wife posted, where my son was in the driveway, and he started his bike on his own without me giving him a boost. [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, Daddy, I did it. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm so proud of me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, man, I'm so proud of you too, man. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, it's just being a parent, but it's difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's difficult because sometimes we look at those moments and it's like, [SPEAKER_02]: That's the difficult thing about Trump, like real real deep trauma, deeply rooted trauma is that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Every time this like positive memory or this positive thing happens, we are reminded of like, and I wish I would have had that when I was a kid, you know, I'm getting ready to take my family on a cruise.

[SPEAKER_02]: uh we're going on a Disney cruise and uh later this year and I have I have a little bit of anxiety about it because I can see the beaches I can see the water I can see my kids smiling I can see my kids having fun and part of me hurts man it hurts a little bit because it's like man I wish I would have I just wish I would have had a father and a mother who were

[SPEAKER_02]: not better people, but just healthier people, maybe mentally and physically, and just had the ability to love me the way that I love my children. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's challenging as it is to be that parent.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is the most therapeutic and like healing thing for me, but we really have to embrace it because a lot of times, and I was guilty of this, a lot of times when we have children, we raise them how we were raised, you know, and we put these [SPEAKER_02]: We put these irresponsible, like, uh, what's the word? [SPEAKER_02]: It may be standards on them. [SPEAKER_02]: We want them to perform expectations.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have these unrealistic expectations of our kids because of how we were raised. [SPEAKER_02]: When I was five years old, I was doing laundry. [SPEAKER_02]: I was five, six years old doing the laundry, washing the dishes, cooking food in the microwave.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I look at my own children like why can't they clean the room sometimes, you know, but I have to I have to realize that like these are just kids, man, like let them be loved and happy and and let them mess up and make mistakes, you know, there's accountability and there's responsibility and there's discipline in my house and my children are two of the most behaved well-behaved children that I know of and we have our rules and we have our things like that to like make no mistake about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still a parent to them. [SPEAKER_02]: I still correct them and teach them and [SPEAKER_02]: all those things, but when I get the opportunity to love them, which is, you know, every moment of every day, I capitalize on it, man, and I just. [SPEAKER_02]: It's helpful. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very healing to do that with your children. [SPEAKER_00]: I love them, and congrats on congrats on breaking the negative cycle, man.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's huge, and it shows that it can be done. [SPEAKER_00]: I am curious. [SPEAKER_00]: What's your relationship like with your, are you, are you, are both of your parents still, you're both your parents are still around? [SPEAKER_02]: They're still alive. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really have much of a relationship with them. [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, they live in that victimhood kind of place.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a better relationship with my father because I don't know whatever he's, he was out. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he spent most of my life in prison. [SPEAKER_02]: I have a better relationship with him, but I wouldn't call it a relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: We talk maybe a couple of times a year. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Got it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what's next for you? [SPEAKER_02]: What's next, I've got, let's see, I've got the notes, I'm putting together the elements of the next book, which is probably a year and a half or so from now. [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be more focused on like a lot of these questions that you've asked me of overcoming these tanks and how I've kind of processed them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a very I try to try to make my message very [SPEAKER_02]: experience related not so much the science and doctors what they say about these things because I think we have plenty of that out in the world and we have less like just experience thoughts on on it. [SPEAKER_02]: So working on that, working on speaking, traveling and speaking, I've got a few conferences that I'm speaking at to end of this year. [SPEAKER_02]: around the states.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just kind of tasting those opportunities and just looking for ways to break into the world and tell my story for whether it's for inspiration or education, something like that to help people [SPEAKER_02]: get through the moments or understand why these things happen to people and and having that level of empathy for people. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's kind of it. [SPEAKER_02]: I've got a my third baby's going to be on the be born here in September.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so you know, it's funny. [SPEAKER_02]: I forgot to say this during the this whole like father had talked, but when my wife was pregnant with my first two children, [SPEAKER_02]: I was talking to her about this like I had such a hard time with my first two kids because I was so damaged and broken like it was so hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily to be a father but to be a husband during those moments it was hard for me to support my wife in fact I was just like kind of rude and and kind of like. [SPEAKER_02]: Just not a good husband. [SPEAKER_02]: I just wasn't doing the right things. [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't have the right level of love and attention and care for her. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm particularly excited for this third child because I'm good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm good to go, you know, and so I'm super excited for my son to be born. [SPEAKER_02]: and and to be able to love him with like every ounce of love that's in my heart, you know, versus where I was still fighting for my own life when I had my first two. [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, yeah, I got the baby on the way and then, uh, you know, we're just, we're just getting started.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm thirty years old and just, uh, just don't omission to to help people as long as I continue to get the messages and the DMs and the requests to speak and share my story. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll keep going. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll keep doing my [SPEAKER_02]: almost due diligence or my obligation of helping people in this world, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: So we need more love, less of this polarizing attacking of one another.

[SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully we continue to kind of shape the world and do a better place.

[SPEAKER_00]: Love a man. [SPEAKER_00]: Seth, thank you for the gift of your time. [SPEAKER_00]: God bless you and your family. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy to hear that positive news. [SPEAKER_00]: That's wonderful. [SPEAKER_00]: And we will definitely talk again. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.