Welcome to the real Photoshow. My guest today is photographer, publisher, designer and coffee roaster Clint Woodside, who joined me at the 2024 Chico Review to talk about Deadbeat Club Press as well as his own photography. We talk about how he partners with artists to make work and books, and how he thinks about publishing as a family business. We also talk extensively about his own work, which is something I really wanted to do because I think whenever someone has a conversation with Clint, it's always about deadbeat club, and rightfully so. He really pours his heart into that. But I wanted to really focus on his photography as well because I think that speaks to how Clint's life unfolded. And we do talk a good deal about an ongoing series that he's been working on for over ten years now, and it does touch upon his personal and family life, his upbringing in New York. But it also remains somewhat undefined, which, as you will hear, is how Clint prefers to work. So this podcast is sponsored by the charcoal Book club. Begin building your dream photo book library today@charcoalbookclub.com. and of course, the 2025 Chico Review is now accepting applications, which is organized by the Charcoal Book Club. The Chico Review takes place over six nights at Chico Hot Springs Resort near Livingston, Montana. 64 applicants will be selected by the jury and invited to spend the week with over 20 of the most influential and creative photographers, bookmakers, gallerists, museum curators and photo book publishers in the industry. And you can find out more about the Chico Review, including scholarship opportunities@chicoreview.com. dot just click on Chico 2025. I also want to just mention that on October 17, from six to 08:00 p.m. i will be at Affirmation Arts with my good friend Dennis Santella, moderating and recording a conversation with Donna Sterling of Float photo magazine to talk about her first monograph, why am I Sadeena? Published by Kara Verlog. And the whole event will be an exhibition, the talk, and a book signing. And I was just looking at the affirmation arts website and it's not listed yet, but it is listed on Donna Sterling's website. It's Donna d a n a, sterling Stirling. And click on updates and the invite will be there. And I'll link to that in the show notes as well, and I'll be promoting it as we get closer to the date. All right, everyone, thank you for listening. Enjoy my conversation with Clint Woodside and we will talk soon. Well, hi Clint. Thanks for joining me here at Chico.
Yeah, man, for sure.
Yeah. Thanks for inviting me everybody has a very busy schedule. But actually, you had a very nice day doing a little sightseeing.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was a lovely day. We saw plenty of buffalo. We saw a lot of elk.
I'm pretty sure I saw a bison.
There was. Yeah. Bisonous carpenter and I love to, well, he is very adamant about how there are no buffalo in the northern, in North America. And me being from Buffalo, I like to just say buffalo because I have pride in my heart.
That's right.
I'm talking proud over here. And then, so he's always like, it's a bison. I'm like, fuck you, it's a buffalo. But that's all right. That's all right. We love to rib each other.
That's pretty good.
Tim and I are very, very old friends. It's good that way.
So let's talk about a little bit, though, bringing up Buffalo and all your background and how you ended up founding Deadbeat club.
Oh, yeah.
And got, you know, your roles as a publisher, an editor, and a photographer.
Right on. Yeah, I was born and raised in Buffalo, lived there for. Until the mid nineties, and then moved to New York for a long time. In Buffalo, actually, I was making a lot of work photography wise, and then I went to Buffalo State, and Buffalo State is a state school, and they have all these prerequisites, and they wouldn't let me take any photography courses for the first two years. It's funny, I was just telling this story in the car while we were driving to Yosemite. They wouldn't let me take any photography courses. So I took some design courses, thinking I would just take pictures for the design courses and all that. And then I got sucked into the world of graphic design. For, like, 15 years. I was a designer at MTV. I ran my own design studio.
You got your graphic design BFA? My alma mater, Sva.
Yeah. So that's what happened is like, after two years in Buffalo State, I transferred. I was accepted for photography originally to SVA, and I was too wrapped up in the punk scene and doing shows and stuff. And I was like, I can't leave this town. Too much stuff's happening. And after two years of not leaving, I was like, what the fuck did I do? So I went to, I got accepted again to SVA, this time for graphic design, because I've already changed course so much that I was already there. So then I wound up, like, going to SVA for quite a few years. It was a really amazing time to be in New York. It was like when alleged gallery was in its full swing, and all the skatey, more diy arthem world was real. Like, warehouse shows and all this really interesting stuff was going on. I lived in Williamsburg before anything was on north six.
Right?
It was, like, me and, like, meatpacking plants and, like, just sketchy shit, but, yeah. And then, yeah, after a while, I kind of had a little bit of a meltdown and moved to Philly and, like, worked in a record store for quite a few years and just kind of, like, stepped away from all that stuff. And then I'm truncating. But then, like, picked up a camera again and started taking photos again and forever. I was just making tons of scenes of, like, what I was up to, and, like, they started getting a little more and more popular. So I picked a random website back in. It might still be a thing, but there was a thing called big cartel at the time that was, like, a shopify lite, which is where, like, it's an online store. And I just needed a URL, and I'm a big b 52 song fan. And so deputy club, which is, like, tongue in cheek, it's because it's, like, the hardest job I've ever had. But I'm also, like, you know, it looks like you're, like, a shiftless lay about when you're.
Everything is so laid back and easy.
Yeah. Except. Except it's the biggest hustle I've ever had to do. So, yeah, I chose deadbeat club as, like, my URL name, and here I am now. Like, I think we're 13 years in, and we just stuck with it. Yeah. So it's pretty tongue in cheek, but it's really nice to have something that people are often. So he just did a book with Toshio Shibata last year.
Yes.
And there was a talk that was recorded in Colorado that he gave, and they were talking about the book, and the moderator of the talk was like, this is the strangest name I've ever heard. And I was like, that guy is. The guy is the reason why I kept that name the way it is. Like, I love that. I fucking love that shit.
Well, also, what happens when you. Also. When you explain that you roast coffee?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we were doing. That was much later in the gamut, too. We've been doing it for about five years now. But, yeah, it's actually something I've always wanted to do. I've, like, always wanted to have a space and, like, have some coffee. And the theory is that coffee would, like, generate revenue. So that we could dump a little more money in the books.
Sure.
The other slogan being, there is no money in books.
Yes.
So we were like, oh, maybe the coffee will make enough money so that we can use to, like, just add a little more revenue to make books and have a little more breathing room to be able to do it.
Yeah.
And we haven't been able to focus as hard as I wish we could on the coffee stuff. Oh, just cause the book stuff is. I mean, that's what we do, you know, the coffee stuff is a side project, probably, I guess, but we take it just as serious. We have subscribers and stuff like that that helps, like, keep it afloat.
Do you actually have a cafe?
No, we're working on it. We're working on it now. We have been looking for a space for years, and we might have something. Something lined up. We'll talk about that next year.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah. Somewhere I read, and I don't know if it was you or was a review of Deadbeat, that there was some commonality with the thought or idea about community.
Yeah.
And a coffee shop and a bookstore and looking at books that would all be about community.
Yeah. I mean, that's really, like, we publish people we know and love more than. I. Not. You know what I mean? I. When we're picking new projects, usually it's people that, when we're, like, working with people we don't know, we get to know them well before we say we want to do so, like, where it's. This is a family affair, and that's how we approach it. And so we really, like, need to get to know people and know, like, are they gonna go to the mat to, like, help us move these books? Because.
Right.
You know, this shit just doesn't sell itself. If you just announce it and wait, it's kind of a. You're in trouble. So, yeah, we like to, like, make sure that everybody understands the way we do stuff. And, like, it's very. I mean, we do it very boilerplate for everybody, like, who? Like, somebody's first book versus something we'll do for, like, Shabbata or Templeton or Hideo. Like, it's all. Everybody's on the same playing field, and that's kind of how we want to.
Approach it, you know? And that's nice for maybe newer or more up and coming. Right. People to feel like they're on this playing field with someone like Todd Hideo. Yeah.
And what's beautiful is, like, because of that, also, they could definitely just email Todd or Ed or Deanna or something and be like, hey, I have this new thing with Debbie club. I'd love to send it to you or whatever. And it's kind of a membership club. You could just be like, hey, I do this thing with Clint and they'll be like, fucking, hey, let me see what's up. I'd love to meet you and talk about stuff. I'm very fortunate that who I work with are so generous.
Well, and that's part of that work, of making sure you really know someone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That they are gonna be generous.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. You know, you are also an editor and a photographer as well as publisher. Where do you sort of put things in your mind? Is it all kind of equal footing?
I mean, I haven't been making as much work as I wish I have recently. That's a whole nother discussion. I'd have to lay down on that couch to, like, really get into it with you.
That's right. I'll start the hour now.
Yeah. For real? No, I kind of feel like I am more now editor and designer and, like, in a weird way, curator. Like, this is also a very much a tutorial project for me as much as anything. So I think I'm more in that world now than I am a photographer. I mean, I've been working on a body of work for, like, ten years about the deep, deep North Adirondacks, which is where my father grew up. And one of these days I'll be able to get back into it, but it's going to be a bit just because I don't see any time off ever. So I don't know when I'm going to be able to get over to that, you know? So it's tough for sure. But, yeah, I kind of see this as. Yes, I am like, the owner of a book publishing company, but it's also. Yeah, like a tutorial editing kind of process more than anything else, I think.
Yeah. I mean, your own books, your own work. Yeah. Sort of fall into different categories. Roughly four categories. Like. Like some. There's collaborations, but some of them might be catalogs from a show, and I'll be curious to hear if which came first, you know, the show or the book, because that's how it's listed on the site. You have zines. A lot of zines. Yeah, yeah. Beautifully made zines.
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah. There. And then there are, you know, book books, like undercover cards. Right, right. And then these sort of travelogues that you do as well.
Yeah, right.
And so is that just a kind of a product of being open to other people's, you know, like, being this. This publisher. Like, you're. You have to sort of stay open to the idea of what a book is.
Right? Yeah. Oh, dude.
Yeah.
You have to say stay super flexible. Like, I mean, I often call our Zines books. Sometimes I'll call our books zines.
Right.
You know what I mean? So it's like, whatever, but, yeah, like, you. For my own stuff, I. A lot of those that are called catalogs, I often, I am very book oriented in my head. So I'll use. I'll make a zine of the show to help kind of understand how all these pieces work together.
Right.
And know what Bo. What the body is that I'm trying to show. So I'll make a zine of a show before I'll make the show, or that's how I make the show even, you know, and then I'll, like, maybe make a sketchup and, like, with the pool of photos that have been chosen for the zine, I can, like, then decide how it's all shown in the space, but it's to get the concept together first. I often will make a zine of a show first.
Oh, okay.
Just to, like, know what I'm looking at.
And I think if someone was holding Vineland in their hand, they wouldn't necessarily know that this was, like a show sort of sequence or anything.
No, probably not. Well, Vineland's also a weird beast in the first place because that's Dan Monik and I together. And that was like, that's a funny story. So a friend of ours runs a gallery in Tokyo called commune, and I made a zine, and Dan made a zine about the same time. And both of them sold very well. And, like, Dan and I are very, very close friends, and we have been for a long time. And Dan was like, I think they want us to do a show. Like, our zines are doing really good, so why don't we do a show there? And then she was like, yeah, you guys should come do a show. And we didn't have anything. Like, we didn't have anything that would, like, be exactly right. So Dan, who is shot in the valley, like, made work in the valley of La for, like, ten years, was like, let's do a thing about the valley. And I was like, well, fuck, man. Like, you already know all about it. So it was kind of funny, but it was also really. It was really exciting because it was really brand new to me up there. And Dan, it was so, like, versed in it, but we would just, like, drive up there often.
No, it's a good combination.
Yeah, we would drive up there often together, and then just, like, get in the, like, get out of the car and, like, go different directions.
Yeah. You'd have this sort of initial reaction.
Response, and it was really, really interesting, and it was very stream of consciousness kind of thing. And we both just decided it has to be 35 millimeter, and neither of us shot digital at the time, so it was like 35 millimeter and just go. And so we just made something out of that. And the middle of the book is Dan's photograph of this scene on a street. And then mine is of. At the end of his, on the, like, right side is a mailbox, and then you turn the page, and it's the mailbox on the other side of that frame, and that's mine.
Right.
But there's no. There's nothing in there that says, now it's Clint Woodside.
Right, right.
Or anything like that. You know, it's kind of fun. That was a fun project.
Oh, yeah.
But we made that book. We made. We, like. They were like, let's do a show. And we didn't have anything, so we just made that body of work, and then we made the book before the show, so we had something to sell at the show.
The installation and the booker just came up together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really fun. And then what was also very fun, so, like, we took the center line of the gallery, and any of my photos were, like, lower because I'm shorter than he is and any of his photos. Yeah. So, like, it was just slightly, like. It was, like, a little, like, slightly zigzag kind of trip, and it was really nice. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. I love that idea.
It was really cool. It was a fun. It was. That was a fun project.
Yeah, yeah. But then something like undercover cars, which is a book. Book, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is. Is that.
The product started as a zine, so.
I was gonna ask.
Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry.
No, no, that's fine. Yeah, that's good. You know what I'm. Where I'm going in terms of how you choose what to photograph and decide what it's gonna look like. Are you already thinking book? Are you already thinking.
Not as much. I mean, you know, honestly, most. Most of my work is shoot first, edit later, you know? And it's just like, when it's time, you just kind of feel the itch to. It's like, it's time to make this thing.
Yeah.
And, like, this is the. The one that I'm working on now is the first project that I've, like, made that has, like, been, like, this is the thing, and it's only this. And I have to, like, do it there, and it's actually kind of fucking killing me.
The Adirondacks.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So. But, like, usually it's, like, I'm just out and I'm making work. I have this, like, ongoing project called independence that is basically about. It's a fate. There is a real town called independence, but the idea is kind of like Springfield. You know? Like, there's a Springfield.
There's an independence.
It's just, like, independence in my head is like this. Like, it's like Buffalo. It's like a steel town. It's, like, where I'm from. And it's, like, basically just kind of, like, finding photos all over. Like, there's photos in independence that sort of, like, from Japan, there's photos from, like, Europe, and there's photos from, like, pittsburgh, which is a real steel town. Or, like.
Right.
You know? Like. Yeah, so it's, like, trying to, like, create a false town, but, like, still make it feel like it's one big part of the thing. So that my theory is there will be more. More volumes to independence. And, like, I've never really said this to the public, but I like the fun idea that I have. I'm friends with a lot of other publishers. I'd love to do independence. Nasraeli independence. Chris Graves. Project independence. Who fucking knows?
That's a pretty brilliant idea.
And, like, just have it come out, like, different versions of, like, this town.
Well, it's a different collaboration with different people, and.
Because that's the. I love. Yeah, I love. Like, we're all friends, so I really love this idea of, like, breaking down the walls of being like, this is this person's. This is this publisher, this is this publisher. It's like, fuck it. We're all in the same. So, like, why not be into it?
On that note, you mentioned that for the most part, like, you're publishing people, you know, because you've gotten to know them and you trust them.
Yeah, yeah.
It's really a matter of trust.
That's a huge part of this.
Have there been instances where you see work and you're like, all right, we need to get to know that person.
Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Plenty of times. Shabbata is a perfect example. You know, like, I knew his work, obviously, well before historically, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I was just so in love with his nighttime photography, which is, like, I feel like, kind of an overlooked body of work. And I'm very close with Chris, who runs Nazraeli, who has published a bunch of his books. Chris and I were talking, and Chris was like, you should talk to him, because he has an amazing archive of more night photography that no one has ever seen. And so I'm in Japan a bunch because we have good business there and amazing friends. And so when I go. When I went over there, Chris was very good to, like, introduce us, and I brought Shabbat a ton of books and was just like, this is what we're up to. And he just really loved what we're up to. And, I mean, honestly, like, you know, I'm touched about this. And it's something that he is really excited about. Like, he's. He's reached out to me many times about how so many younger people have now seen his work through day for night, the book we did with him. And he was just like, he keeps being like, I can't believe how many new, younger people have been getting my work now because you did this.
That's so nice.
And I'm just like, dude, I'll do anything you want for me. I'll do anything you want any day. He's just so amazing.
He's such a great kind also to hear that.
Oh, he's amazing. He's so awesome.
You know, getting back to your work a little bit, there's, you know, I look at Vineland and giant rock and undercover cars.
Yeah.
There's a very sort of directness to your photography and your titles. Like, you know, we know we're going to see certain things just from the title.
Well, with giant rock, for sure, it's about a giant rock that's like a. That's actually a rock out in the desert that is actually a little bit historical there. Like, a guy lived under that rock for a long time. I think he was, like, a survivalist kind of guy or something. I can't remember the whole story. It's been a while since I did that.
And undercover cars, these are cars under wraps. But the three projects you have listed before that let me die, my footsteps, life from a window and build us a path. It seems like from those three to the next three, there was a change in an approach, maybe, or a re editing of work.
Well, I think more it's. I think more, build us a path and let me die in my footsteps and independence are more my usual steez where it's like. I mean, that's more like edit after the fact, you know? But, like, I definitely have, like, maybe a slight sense of humor to it, but it's a lot of it is largely about, like, pining. I pine a lot.
Yeah.
You know.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say there's a little wry sense of humor in that work and also desire.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah. So the Adirondack work is connected to your father, but you didn't grow up there.
No, but I went there tons when I was young. My grandmother lived there until she came down to live with us because she had Alzheimer's and eventually had to go into a home. But she lived with us for a long time. But prior to that, she lived up in this kind of a secluded, very, very small town called Hevelton. It's near Canton and Ogdensburg, which are very small. St. Lawrence river kind of town.
Ogdensburg sounds like another Simpsons.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But it's like, you know, just small. Like, you blink and you miss it. It's like Kingston.
Oh, right.
But like, small. You know, like that kind of trip.
Right.
So, like, it's just, you know, hardworking towns.
Yeah.
Largely farm. And then also Huvelton, where my dad lives, is a tiny town that is primarily surrounded by Amish. And then the center of it is held together by a cheese packing plant called macadam. And it's been sold a bunch. Like, I think it's already. It was craft for a little bit.
Oh, wow.
And then Cabot bought it after that. And, like, it's been handed over a bunch. But that was, like, the hub of the town, which is like, you know, it's the story that you hear about all these towns a billion times over. And, you know, my father doesn't talk a lot about history up there. So a lot of this is me going up there, running off of, like, these weird phantom memories of, like, walking on site on the sidewalk that's in front of my grandmother's old house. And there's this cherry tree, and, like, it would drop these fucking cherries that would just, like, destroy the sidewalk. And I remember trying because my cousin's house was like, two doors over, right. And you would go through and walk on that sidewalk that has a cherry trees, and it's still there. It's still making a fucking mess.
Such a sensory memory.
That's a lot of experience. So that a lot of this is about that.
Yeah.
Kind of trying to find my way through it. But also at the same time. And I haven't fully, like, locked this all down, but there's a whole component where, like, so in the span. This is intense. In the span of eight months when my dad was 19, his two brothers and his father all died in totally unrelated, like, mostly alcohol related.
Wow.
Accidents and stuff, they go very, very hard in the north. And so that, that is a large part of why probably my father doesn't talk a lot about stuff up there. But there's a lot of history up.
There's a lot of trauma.
Yeah, probably. There's a lot of woodsides up there. Like, there's a lot of Woodside history up there that I want to, like, dive a little deeper into. And so, you know, I just want to be in there. Like, for example, I went and shot his. So his high school is right behind my grandmother's house. And I went there and shot, and I went into high school, and it was, like, after school, so, like, no one was in there. And I walk in and I'm like, hey, I'm a photographer. Like, I'm making work about this town and, like, the surrounding area, and I was wondering, is it cool if I take some photographs in here? And they're like, who's your father? And I was like, oh, Tom. Tom Woodside. They're like, oh, you're Tommy's boy.
Oh, my God.
And these are people that went to. These are people that went to my school. My dad, like, a year before or something like that. Like, that's how this town is, you know? So, like, it's really interesting to be able to, like, go in there and kind of, like, get to know a little bit of that.
Yeah, that. What is also, I guess, fortunate is that there's still this connection to the Woodsides.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For sure happened.
Yeah, I mean, I think there's probably connect. I mean, you know, there's a lot of. It's a very small town, so, like, there's still wood sides there.
Yeah.
You know, like, I don't know them very well, but they're up there and, like, you know, it just. Yeah, it's deepen.
So then how is it you. You are raised in Buffalo with this connection to Hevelton?
Yeah, I mean, it's because my parents, I grew up in Buffalo. That's where they moved to, well, before I was born.
Okay.
But it's still close enough to buffalo. I mean, it's the opposite sides of the, of the state, and New York is kind of a big state. Huge.
Yeah.
So it's like, an eight hour drive there. But, like, that's a. That's another one of them. Those memories is like, for Christmas, we would drive all the way there. And, like, back then there was no seatbelt laws or anything. So I was, like, sitting in the front seat seeing snow come at the windshield, like. Like, in my head. It was like hyperspace and Star wars. You know, it was. Because back then, snowstorms were brutal. Like, totally brutal, but also like a dime a dozen. So, like, you would just go and. Didn't matter.
Yeah. So I'm sorry, I misunderstood a little bit. When you're talking about your father's connection to Huveltin.
Yes.
You're talking about more of his youth.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Oh, yeah.
Like, more of his youth. And, like, just. It'll be. I mean, who knows what it's gonna be? But I don't want to make it like, this is my father's autobiography, but I want it, like, that's kind of the framework that I'm using to, like, get to, like, it's the excuse to go up there to make the work.
Yeah.
You know, and, like, if things touch more on, like, if there's a whole archival photography section in there, who fucking knows?
You find it, right?
You know, like, you know, but, like, I have it. No, there. I don't have to find it. I have.
Oh, no, you. So you don't. You don't know what this is gonna be?
No, I have no idea.
But you are definitely.
Yeah.
Looking for this connection, right? Trying to figure out your connection to it. Yeah, yeah. It is very personal.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
But I mean, the work's been, like, what I have been making out of it has been feeling good and rewarding, like, the way you want.
Yeah.
When you're making a body work and, you know, it's not anywhere, there's still huge gaps that need to be filled. So that's the problem that I'm at right now.
Right. How long have you been in LA?
I think I moved there in 2011, so a little over ten.
How did you end up in LA?
Oh, I was in Philly.
This is such an east coast question.
I know. I was in Philly and was just like. I kind of had a life explosion and really just had to. I realized in Philly, I lived in New York and, like, you have to hustle to get by in New York. And then I moved to Philly and I realized that's the kind of place where you could have a bar back job and, like, 40 years later still have that bar, back job and be fine. Yeah, but, like, also be like, fuck, this is all I've been doing for the last 40 years.
Exactly.
So.
Which could. Is fine for which many.
If that's what they're after.
Yes.
Yes. It's not really what I'm after.
Right.
And so I was just kind of feeling the lack of having the push. So a lot of friends when I lived in New York and left, a lot of them moved to La or San Francisco. It was literally a coin toss. So much so that there is. This is a crazy story. Feel free to cut it out if you like. Never. There's a sign in. Well, it's gone now. But there was this fabled sign of a foot clinic that was a happy foot, and it had, like, a characteristic version of a happy foot and then a sad foot, and it was a foot clank where you go, like, get, like, bunions or stickers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, there was a drawing of a happy foot that was, like, smiling and dancing, and then there was a sad foot that had. It was a foot that had, like, crutches that it was on and, like, a bandaged toe, and it was frowning and stuff. It's all, like, cartoony. And there's, like, this story that, like, if you see the happy foot, it's gonna be a good day. Oh, wow. If you see the sad foot, it's on a hill that, like, you come over the hill and then you see the sign.
Oh, this is. This is like the. The weather is looking in the sky in the morning, in the sky at night.
Yeah, more or less. So, like, if there's a happy foot, sad foot sign. And, like, I knew I was coming up on it, and I was deciding whether or not I was good. I already knew I wanted to leave Philly, and I was like, am I gonna move to LA or am I gonna move to San Francisco? And I was like, oh, the happy foot, sad foot signs coming up. I guess that's how I'll decide if I move. And I don't want to say it was 100% that, but I got the happy foot, and I was like, fuck, I guess I'm just moving here, and here I am. You know? It's pretty crazy.
But the happy foot worked.
No, for real. For real. Cause I had a lot of preconceived notions about LA, and sometimes I still do. But, like, La is a very different town than Philadelphia or. Or New York or buffalo. But, I mean, I kind of made my own luck there, which is what is beautiful. About La, like, you can do that because it is a major metropolitan city. You do need to hustle, but it is like the cheapest of New York. La, San Francisco. I feel like LA is the one that's still slightly affordable compared to the rest of it, which has just gotten crazy. There were a lot of gaps that I was missing, and with deadbeat club, I kind of used that as the vehicle to fill those gaps.
Right.
You know?
Right, yeah, no, I can totally relate. That idea of working with others to fulfill a creative kind of need. Absolutely.
And that's kind of where I am now with not making work. I'm making everybody else's shit.
Yeah.
And I'm so I'm. And it's weird. Like, that's. Is that a problem or is that okay? Like, I don't know. I don't know.
I think it's where we need to be when we need to be.
Yeah.
That kind of thing.
For real.
The other thing I wanted to ask you about, moving to the west coast, had you already had a kind of affinity for the kind of art making and in your case, even, like, design work that was happening on the west coast?
Oh, well, you know what? I worked for a bunch of artists and I was doing art. So when I first moved to LA, right before I moved to LA, I helped an artist do a huge mural project in Philadelphia, Steve Powers, who's like, a muralist and he's a graffiti guy, but then became pretty well known in the artwork world, Espo. And so he did a huge mural project in Philly right before I left that was like these. It's called the Love Letter Project, where he just, like, wrote these really beautiful, like, almost haiku type slogans on all the buildings on the main line, on the main elevated train line in Philly. I was just like a runner and, like, helping those guys get stuff done. I am in no way any kind of graffiti artist or art. Like, I'm not a painter, I'm an idiot with that shit. And so right when I moved to LA, there was a huge, huge exhibition at the MoMA called Art in the streets. And it was like, kind of like a graffiti retrospective. And a bunch of the people that I knew from my weird world that I was part of just happened to be there. And I didn't say anything to him. And I was in a taco shop, and Steve walked in, he's like, what are you doing here? And it's like, oh, I just moved here. He's like, I need you now. Like, because they didn't need. They didn't have the, like, the. The museum didn't throw down enough for, like, staff, so he just had to bring in all hands on deck.
Wow.
And that's when I became very close with, like, a bunch of different artists. Like, and so it just became a gig where I was, like, a guy who was known to get shit done.
Yeah.
Then, like, deadbeat club was like, I was making the zines, but it really wasn't a thing. Thing yet. So I was, like, doing that and then at the same time, like, making these zines and just kind of running around, you know, doing whatever. Yeah, just like any weirdo art based odd job. And it just kind of like, la's good for that. There's tons of that kind of shit, you know? So, like, and I was friends with, like, some heavy curators. Like, Aaron Rose was a pretty good buddy at that time. And he's like, dude, I need you for this thing. I'm like, yeah, dude, no problem, let's go. Like, it would be anything from, like, installing, like. Like, stuff for cause to, like, just painting a backdrop a different color every five minutes for a video thing.
It's pretty wild.
Yeah, it was crazy, but it was really, really fun.
Yeah, I mean, that really led you down a path.
Yeah, it really did. And it just kind of, like, opened me up to a lot of different stuff. And, you know, I was a photographer and I took a lot of photos of all that kind of stuff. And a little bit of it creeps in some of those early zines, but yeah, there's a bunch of weird stuff. But eventually it just kind of all just started being more and more serious about the photography and, like, making the zines and stuff. So I was like, all right, well, I guess this is working. Let's keep going.
Yeah, this might be too psychoanalytical and we'll cut it out if it is.
I love it. Let's go.
Do you have children?
No.
Okay. So does this sort of distance being in LA and getting older as we all are?
Yeah.
Is that what's turned you back to investigating the Adirondacks and.
I don't know. I don't think so. I was doing it. I mean, I've been working on it for ten years and I don't think I realized how old I was until probably five years ago.
Yeah, same here.
I had a really heavy bout with COVID Like, I was in the hospital for a month and, like, then had rehab for like a month and a half. On top of that, like, I got fucked up.
Yeah.
And so that is the first time where I was like, oh, my God.
You felt a little mortality.
I was like, yeah, holy shit, I can die.
Yeah, yeah.
And, like, before that, I was just, like. Just, like, acting like a dummy. Like, not. Not really, but you know what I mean?
Yeah, sure.
Like, just like, oh, it's fine. I can just. I have all the time in the world, you know? It doesn't matter.
Yeah.
So, like, yeah, now I'm, like, pushing. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting closer and closer to 50, and it's like, I don't know. Yeah, it's just interesting to be like, this is where I am now.
Yeah. Yeah. So. So it was more like, you need to get this work done.
Yeah, it was more that, you know, and it's also like, I. It would be great if I could make it before my father leaves this mortal coil. But at the same time, it's not 100% about him, it's not about me. It's just kind of, like, about bigger ideas than that. It is interesting to think about it in a more personal way like that, but it's. If I do, then it kind of, like. It kind of stagnates it a little bit.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, now is not the time to figure out what it's all about.
Yeah, for real. It's actually true. I just want to, like, make the work, and I like, you know, and actually, that's. Sometimes I try to think about what it is too much, and that also fucks up.
Oh, yeah.
So I gotta, like, just let go of it.
Yeah.
You know, just make the work while I'm there.
Well, I think that's a good place to end. And thank you so much again. This was a lot of fun.
Oh, man, I'm super touched that you even want me to be here. So thank you. Thank you so much for asking.
Yeah. All right. Bye, everyone.
Bye.
Real photoshow is produced by me, Michael Chovendalton, music by Matteo Chovendalton and Jim Raimundo. If you like the show, please rate and review with all the stars on your listening platform.