Deborah Ann Woll on Keeping it Real in Hollywood

I don't know that you and I have ever really like hung out. No. No, we haven't. But also like what I was saying to you before is you're very aspirational. I don't know if that's the right fucking word, but I really always want to be my best self. You're like literally of the sea of people that I've gotten to work with on camera. Like you are my favorite. You are the one that I am most.

Like if I'm in a scene with you, like it's gotta be good. No matter how fucking shitty the writing is, no matter how fucking mad I am, like this will always, you like never fuck up. Like you're never dishonest. You're so fucking smart. And like, I really like love being around you.

As I was saying in there before I was going to tell you this story, I think I'm, I'm, I'm always a little hesitant to, to let it like, you know, I want you to know my best self because there's parts of me that like, you know, I think I would, you know, like I used to be real fucked up dude and, and, and, uh, I would hate.

I would hate to do or say anything fucked up around you. Is that weird? It's a very sacred relationship for me. It's very precious for me. But it's fascinating because I relate to that deeply, deeply. And I don't think I have the same history, right? But when I think of my history, no, I don't have the same history, but, but when it, because of whatever overactive fear I have of.

fucking up of people not liking me or whatever that is. When I think of people like yourself, like Charlie, like Vincent, like these people, Wilson, people that we work with that I so admire. I don't ever feel like I'm fully myself or sharing of myself because that little bit of fear holds me back. Um, so yeah. So again, I, for, we have such similarities, I think, but just from completely different reasons. Yeah. Yeah.

But you were saying how you're like nervous. I'm very nervous. And I imagine that's like astonishing because like look, like most of the people that like come on this show. It's literally like the only time in their life they've ever been on camera, only time in their life they've ever, right?

And I imagine they'd be surprised by you who like knows what the fuck, like you're at least seemingly so comfortable in front of the camera. But that's the thing, right, though? I mean, you can... whether this is true for you or not, but for me, acting and what we do there is safer because it's... On some level, it's me, but it's not my specifics. So I can live in the feelings that are very real for me without having to reveal any kind of details that might... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I always equated it to like religion. I am not a religious person. I don't believe in much spiritually in that sense. But I've always been very jealous or envious of people who have that because there is this idea that like...

There's someone watching, there's a path, there's some safety, there's some support, there's a road you're meant to be on. As long as you are a good person, you are following that road. I live just kind of like in entropy, right? Like there's just chaos and every decision I make could make or break me.

So that's very paralyzing in some way. But when I think about scripts, that's a path, right? So like, no matter what I do in that scene, in that script, it doesn't change what's going to happen 10 pages later. So there's more freedom. Yeah, yeah. And I also think, I think that's super cool. And I think like religion too, or just faith in general, there's this like underlying feeling that. You know, no matter how far we fall or how badly we fuck up or how base our desires get or...

you know, our trespasses and our weaknesses, there's always kind of a way. Yeah. There's always hope. There's always a way out. There's always a way to kind of like use it to some degree. And I think... I've really found that with what we do in our fucking play acting bullshit, that those cracks, those...

The most dangerous parts of myself, the most weak and fragile parts of myself, all the things that I try to kind of like stay away from that lead me into bad paths or like I'm embarrassed to show, those all have a... a real currency. Uh, and, and, and they'll actually, you, you, uh, in, in what we do. Yeah. I think that's right. I think those things that embarrassed us or got us into trouble when we were younger, even however different they were.

and are sort of forbidden in real life because like if you need to like get up and like drive a fucking bus every morning or like get to your job and work nine to five, like you can't be an emotional raw nerve. You'll never survive. So those things that I think sometimes actors are born with innately that are, you know.

problems, disadvantages when you're younger suddenly become the thing that can make you really good at this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, yeah. So I latched on early. I was like, oh, something that doesn't despise me for crying at the drop of a hat. Great.

I've wanted to have you on the show for a long time. And our last conversation in New York when we were on set, I just... I just, I just knew it. I just knew it. And, and, um, I don't know. It's like, you came in, in the kitchen. We were both like, yeah, I'm nervous. You're like, you're nervous. Talk to me about like where that, where that, where you think that comes from, like that, that, that, uh, because I guess I, and look.

I'm a rambling asshole. That's another big difference between you and me. You get right to the fucking point. Like the way we fight for shit when the writing shit, I like, it like take the weight of the world and I'm like so upset and I like fight over every little thing and you're like very streamlined and you just like.

say the one thing and it's always going to be all right with me I feel like it's always like doom and gloom and like fucking like we've got to fight these motherfuckers but like we are very similar but we're totally unlike at the same time and I think it's about this like fragility and strength at the same time yeah and uh talk to me a little bit about that fragility and strength fragility and strength yeah holy i don't have a lot of self-confidence i think and so when i look at

how you approach the work and changes and the way you feel about the work. I honestly don't know how. I couldn't do it that way. It would be too scary. It's an inhibitor, I think, actually, in my work. I genuinely, in my gut, don't understand how people approach the world with confidence. Every single one of my decisions is framed by fear in some capacity. And that's rough because a lot of people talk about fear is the one thing that will...

You can't let fear rule your life. But I'm like, I don't know any other way to live. My identity is rooted in fear and anxiety. I've come a long way. I used to have anxiety attacks all of the time. really held myself back a lot. And I think I've, I'm light years ahead of where I started. But you know, we talked about bullying and what that experience can do to you, particularly because it happens at that.

foundational age where you are literally developing a sense of yourself. And at that age, if someone tells you that you are unworthy or ugly or not wanted, that defines you. for the rest of your life, you know, for better and for worse. And so, yeah, having, having been through that at that age.

And I get nervous to talk about it. Like, I think there's some of the nerves as I knew that that was something that you wanted to talk about. And I don't, I don't dislike talking about it, but there is a sense of like, even with you guys, when I shared it with you. the first response is always, uh, no, who would ever bully you? Like who couldn't like you? And I get that that comes from like this sense of like love and support.

But it puts me in a position of having to defend myself. How so? Of having to prove that I was, right? why would anyone bully you? Now I have to explain why, you know? And so I get nervous about that. There's a, there's an immediate dismissiveness of like, well, if you're doing well in your life now and things seem good or that seems hard to believe, then.

prove it. And the fact is that it is an enormously identifying part of my life and feeling like, oh, God, what if someone dismisses that or doesn't think that it's valid? And all of that stemming from that experience, right? Like I was taught at that age to fear how people feel about me. Sure. And so that continues to persist. That one thing I also think we're very much alike is I feel like this thing.

you know, like very much saved both of us and, and, and we owe a lot to it. And I think that what, what comes with that too, is this, uh, this, this, uh, this hunger that never goes away. Um, And this fear that it could be taken away, because what will we do without it? I don't know, how would you describe that kind of within yourself? What's your relationship with sort of hunger and drive?

I'm a show your work person, right? Even if the result is really good and can stand on its own, there's a part of me that goes, It's not good unless you can prove that you've earned it or you can prove that you did the work to get it. What do you mean? Like talent is a weird thing, right? Because talent can just be innate. You can just be...

a charismatic, talented person and be a fantastic actor and never study, never do any kind of homework, never have a process. Right. That's very hard for me to get my fingers around. So like, I have just like. composition notebooks for days of just, you know, notes that I took for acting school for different roles that I've had, theater, film, TV, you know, even just things I worked on for auditions, you know?

because I have to show my work that there's something wrong in getting something without proving that you've

And who are you showing that to? No one. Well, that's the thing. Just if someone were to ask. I know these motherfuckers, especially these days with all the method acting bullshit and everything, who are constantly like... fucking uh advertising to the world about like hey yeah well I just got out of you know I just like you know was living in a fucking internment camp and I fucking you know what I mean and it's like and and and I think that like those are the things that like

you know, you can, I don't know, you can sniff out a mile away. Yeah. I've never seen you be showy in that way at all. No. I mean, I love talking process. I mean, and part of it is because I'm personal and private and I don't share a lot of my life life. I do love talking about art and process and how we do these things in character. I do find that fascinating pretty endlessly. But I also at a certain point realized I don't actually have to do that. Yeah, yeah.

For me to do my work well, I don't have to write it down. I can just have it in my head. And so that was like a shift at a certain point. So ambition and drive. Like I don't.

I would never describe myself as ambitious or even driven. I think I'm... committed maybe, right? Like I love this stuff. I'm obsessed with this stuff. But the things that are required to be successful in this business at that kind of level, I don't know that I'm capable of. What are those things? Well, the social parts, like I, you know, my brother does sound editing and post-production and we talk a lot about like.

what gets you jobs. And I think a lot of it is like, are you a fun hang? I don't think I'm a very fun hang. I'm just not, you know, I think unless you play board games or knit or, you know. I'm not a really fun hang. At least not in the like... But like, or you can look at that as like, you are like absolutely allergic to pretension and bullshit. And like, you're not like, you sort of like, I don't know. I don't know, Deb. I feel like you just, from what I've seen, like you really honor this.

and you like you honor the work and you really want it not to be good because you think like no this is my shot kid and like this will fucking a director will see this and like there's no part of you that's like that it's like this is there's a faithful holiness like Agreed. Absolutely. But I think the unfortunate reality of this business is that the former is true, right? Like there's, there's a certain part of like, of this business that requires.

a little bit of not selling out but a little bit of superficiality and a little bit of of playing the game and if you are purely kind of driven by hard work and putting out good work, it's not enough. It isn't enough. And that's okay, right? But enough for what? Enough to be a headliner. Enough to like...

be the lead of a show or something like that, like that would be in a dream and ambition of mine. And that's been harder to make happen than I thought it would be in my kind of like, oh, you know, you. you prove yourself here and you prove yourself here and you prove yourself here and it should sort of lead to something. Right. And it just doesn't work that way. Um, so that was a kind of an eye opener for me, I think. Um,

But I'm still trying, you know, I just have to try in my way, which is the longer route. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. I mean, this thing is definitely not. solely a meritocracy. That is for fucking sure. There's plenty of super fucking talented people who never get a shot and get stepped on over and over and over again. I just would like, I guess I would... Push back and argue that like the people that are sort of only sort of it kind of like

career focused or do everything because it's some sort of strategic needs to an end. There's a hollowness to their work, which will eventually kind of catch up with them. And I think that's kind of across the board. And I don't know. I think the dream is like really just finding something. you just like absolutely love.

to do and figure out a way to, to, to be able to do it. I think what comes with that though, is that like, you know, it's very scary that that could get taken away. And, and, and, and I do, um, I think that that's, uh, I think that really exists in, in, in, in. both of us.

And I think that we both really fight to make every little tiny thing as good as it possibly can be. I think I do it in a super loud and brash way. And I think maybe like I like to, you know, and I think you're just like, whoa, like easy there, killer. We can just do this. Like, we have it all here between us. I mean, you know, not to bring sexism into it too much. There's a...

I can't bring it loudly in that way. I will get fired if I bring it loudly in some capacities. I feel that very strongly. The looks that I get sometimes when I push too hard or even just the ignoring. Give me an example about that.

Because I feel like everybody would do whatever the fuck you I feel like on the sets I've been on people will do whatever the fuck you say No, I, well, or part of the reason why maybe that is is because I have had to be very tactful and state things and really, you know.

you know oh that's a great idea what if also you know like it's this kind of like very supportive open general you know like when i see you guys go no that's not good do make it better or here's what is better and that's what i'm going to do Again, I just have this, I just know that that would be greeted with you. We don't have to work with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So there's a little bit of.

But that's putting too fine a point out because it's not to say that I wouldn't do it my way even if that barrier wasn't there. There is something deeper in my character that asks. asks of me to do it tactfully and quietly and gently. For sure. I like that about myself also. I think there's something in that too that I don't really want to lose that. I like being the kind of person that is open-minded and assumes the best in people.

So yeah, that comes into it too with the anxiety and all that too. There's a part of me that's like, oh man, wouldn't it be awesome to be so confident that I could just be like, screw you. do what i say but then i go but who is that for me yeah i know that i am one hundred bagillion percent super capable of being stupid and being terrible like being terrible at my job like i really believe for me right like with with with acting like i love

swinging for the fences. Like I want to be a home run hitter. And like the only way you can do that is like to strike the fuck out and like beat, fall flat on your fucking face. But this is also, this is why you're great. I mean, it is. It's why you're great. And it's, and it's, and it's why. I'm not yet. You know, it's like, no, no, but in a certain level, right? Like there's things that I still have to learn.

in order to do that, right? That fear that has been implanted in me holds me back sometimes. 100% it does. And I feel that. And I think I can get there, but I have work to do, you know? Well, look, man, I guess it's like the difference.

You know, look, there's like all kinds, I mean, I always go back to like sports, but there's all different kinds of players. Like there's the, like, there's the, the one that's like flawless that like never fucks up. That's like fucking. So there you go. Right. Like. I if I talk about aspirations, I aspire to be an actor like you, not what I normally get, which is like reliable workhorse.

you know, great company member, you know, like, like those things that are unexciting and uninspiring. Yeah, but you guys flipped the script on those fucking words. It's flawless, you know, elegant, like, you know, like, I don't think you could, could be bad. I don't. And so I guess, but I guess all I'm saying is that with arguing and the fighting to try to make it good. Yeah.

I guess all I'm saying, man, is I've said it before. Like, I don't think that in whatever kind of work you fucking do, I don't think there's ever a bigger sign of mediocrity than being like so. almost like a helicopter parent. If you don't trust your kid, you're watching their every movie. You're worried about them and defending them. Trust your fucking kid. Put fucking faith in that.

in that beautiful child that they're going to figure shit out like let them go let them fail let them experience and I think that like in our work you know these people with their fucking ideas like it the prerequisite that you know for me is like look i'm totally capable of fucking up tell me when i'm yeah is that dumb is that's like cool yeah you're not gonna hurt my feelings yeah but fuck dude it's got to be a two-way street like

I think that's bad. And you've got to be able to... And I think that we're just so... You can't be so ego-fucking-driven in art that it's my idea versus yours. Yeah. You know, like when I really think I'm right, like I like. One, it helps that you are you are usually right as well, which is good.

No, usually he's right. In the podcast. 100%. All y'all motherfuckers fucking heard that. No, no, you don't cut that shit, bro. Don't cut it. Well, but the great, but that's true. Like I remember we had a one thing with like the gun and the handing off the gun and it was a whole thing and we were like. delayed shooting because John had a problem with it, but you were 100% right. And there's this thing with like within storytelling.

Even as like good actors, like we're like, ooh, yeah, good material. Like you get really caught up in like the fun dramatics of it that sometimes you miss specifics and details. And the fun thing about you is you don't miss them. You don't get caught up in the fun. of the scene

forget that like, oh, there's specific human things that need to have logic. If you're broken getting in there, it's like, I already stopped believing it. Like you made it bullshit. So like, great, we can cry our asses off. But like the reason why we got there was fucking bullshit. Like, why would we do that?

I mean, look, I want to learn and take a lot of what you do into my own practice. And I feel like, you know, as I go continue to work and get there, I will. But there was something I had a teacher tell me once that I really, really liked, which is that like.

For an actor, we're a little bit bulletproof because... Experience is experience, right? Like having a baby is having a baby, whether it's written by Shakespeare or the next junior writer at the CW, right? Like, if it's written terribly, it doesn't change the fact that I get to have an authentic experience.

So in some ways bad writing doesn't scare me that much because I'm a little bit bulletproof. I know how to sit and experience and let the words just float on top. The words are not that important to me. I spend very little time with the words. Most of my acting process has nothing to do with what I say. It's about the iceberg beneath the surface, the stuff I don't get to say. And I get to make that whatever the fuck I want it to be. And it can be...

a million times more complex than what you've written and frankly it should be. Yeah. Right? If you're writing too much. You're taking away my job. Right. I just did. You know, we did the play. I did Angels in America. And, you know, our director is this fantastic, incredible artistic guy. You know, but a lot of what we were talking about putting in was like.

physicalizing subtext. And I had to kind of keep saying, no, it's subtext because it's mine, right? Like I want to keep it secret. So that's, that's, I think a part of why. I don't fight in the same way with writing. If writing feels untruthful, if it feels like it's or too revealing, I'll fight back. But a lot of times for me, it's like a word. It's like and some of it is with films like I with. With female characters, men often like to write.

A lot of my lines are like, I know you feel this way. I know you feel, you know, like vocalizing the emotions of the male characters because the men are too, you know, hard to talk about it. And so a lot of time I have to come and be like, so I'd like to say, I feel this way. Can we write from her perspective? Can I be speaking from how I feel rather than just telling the audience how he feels? So a lot of the fight is that. But again, that's swapping.

You for I, right? That's a pretty easy sell. And so a lot of times I will work on a scene. Until I get to a point where I'm like, okay, I can't do it with this one thing. I can make all the rest of this work. And some of that comes out of doing classical theater. Like when you do Shakespeare, you don't get to change the lines.

in the same way you have to kind of figure out the problem solve the problem make it work how can you say that and have it be real even though you don't you think it's right yeah part of the work is getting there um And so I try to do that with modern scripts as well. And I will come to the point where I'm like, I can't get past this one thing. So this is the one thing I'm going to ask for.

I would just fucking say it the other way. You would. Yeah. And, and you'd save yourself a lot of time and stress and energy. And then they'd like, some fucker would come over and be like, um, yeah, could you just actually, it's actually written yet. I'm like, yeah, yeah, no, I know how it's true. I'm just going to say it this way. And then they'll be like, yeah, but could you just, I heard what you said.

but like, no, I can't do that, right? And then I'm a dick. No, you're not a dick. You're inspiring, at least to me. No, you're inspiring me, man. Because you're like the fucking special forces. Like you don't fuck up. I don't know. But that's why I feel like I'm constantly fucking up. Oh, you know, like that's where I live from. Jiminy Christmas.

But that's right. But like perspective is fascinating, right? Perspective is fascinating. I look at you and think he's so confident. He just fights for exactly what he wants. He has no... No, I'm just like, I know that I'll be shit if it's that way. Like it's shit. Like I'm not going to let my...

kid's dad be shit because you don't know how to fucking write kind of kind of fear-based just for sure oh fucking fear-based dog so we're both just fear-based and i disagree but like i think fear is like a great yeah okay good i think it's great i mean i do

And I think like perpetually trying to find things that you're afraid of and then diving into them fully is like a recipe, such a great recipe for success. What's the healthiest? What makes a healthy set? What's the healthiest set you've been on? So for me, it's the ones where we are all... friendly, respectful. Because the fact is if I have to yell at you or belittle you or fight you or kiss you, whatever it is, these like deeply intimate things that we do as actors.

It's why I like intimacy coordinators and that coming in I think is fantastic. Because if I know that I can touch you here to here, then I have freedom. Yeah. Whereas if I don't know where I can touch you or not, then I'm tentative because I don't want to cross any lines. For sure. But if I know that we love and respect each other, I can hit you hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you know, I know you're safe. I know you're good. I know that as soon as they call cut, it means action to cut is good.

fucking freak yeah straight whatever the fuck we want because we know exactly how far to go and we can surprise each other but as soon as cut is called i get to come over and be like you okay yeah yeah yeah you know yeah

That's really good for me. So I don't love the sets where there are manipulative tricks to try to make you feel something. I want to be like, I'm an actor. Give me an example of that. Like, I'm not looking for dirt, but I'm just wondering. Well, no, I did a small movie where like... there was a kiss in the scene so I knew that it was coming but like the director told him to do it early and to like genuinely surprise me and I wasn't upset about that because of

the kiss part and like crossing that boundary. But I was like, I'm a fucking actor. Yeah. My job is to live as if, and. not anticipate and like trust again, like trust me, right? The fact that you did that suggests that you don't think I know how to do my job. Right, right, right.

Which is to live in the moment. So I dislike those kinds of things. It's just interesting. When I asked you what a healthy set was, you went right to like actors that you feel like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I guess because that's my primary connection. I think the.

bad experiences i've had on set never come from crew it's always other actors it's always other actors um but yeah that that feels healthy i you know i always looked at that and i was like wow if i'm ever in the position to be the person who like has some authority like that's what i wanted to be i wanted to be a space where anyone felt like they could voice their creative ideas right but like this is a collaborative thing we are all

building this wall together. Um, so let's, let's take each other's ideas and bounce off and feel that's that sense of like, there are no dumb ideas, but just ideas we might not use.

Maybe that's also because that's what I want because I'm a little afraid to speak up and share my ideas. The idea of being in a space where that would be like welcome. When you say you're afraid to speak up and share your ideas, what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? I mean, you do know, like, you know, like, in your mind and shit, when you're like hanging out, like on set or wherever.

Like, you know, you're like, I mean, you're smarter than most of the people around you. Do you know that? I mean, I know you fucking know that. I know you probably can't say that. But Deb, you're definitely smarter than the people around you. I am proud of my intelligence. Yeah, motherfucker. I don't know. I don't know.

that we need to use words like smarter than. But I mean, like, come on. I'm proud of my intelligence, but I don't feel cared for or written for. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So. Have you ever? Here and there. Eric Olson. Fucking loved Eric Olson. And I like there's a part of me that because he gave me that episode because he. wrote Cara in the way that he did in that third season. I really like, I, I love him. He will sit in my heart with like, you talk about like.

favorite people to work with yeah like he's up there yeah and he took talk about big swings right he took big big swings with like that i didn't even see it but reading it on the page that like black box episode for vincent's character right like he took He took risks and he pushed for it.

So I really love him. And then when it came around time for Karen's episode, he listened to me. I sat down with the writer and she and I like really worked on things. This was a backstory they've been building for. years and they let me be a part of that. The director, we sat down, we did rehearsals beforehand and like in his crime noir show, he took the crew. you know, the entire crew upstate for a week to film a family drama in the snow.

and and and gave me a dream right like satisfied a dream for me to be sort of like the lead like to have that i'm gonna get emotional to have that moment of sort of like you the hard work And the dedication and the like constantly being there actually does mean something because the squeaky wheel is what gets the grease, not the reliable quiet one. I don't get rewarded very often for hard work.

And that felt like the one time that I did, right? That he like saw that I had been consistently trying to do the best thing that I could with this role. And he honored it. And that's the best way to honor it. Like, I don't want an award. I want you to give me great material. And responsibility to the story. That's what I want.

So yeah, I will always, I'm really, really very grateful to him. I mean, I've been on sets where people tried to get me fired. I've been on sets where, you know, I've been written out of things and, you know, I've had all those things, but that's a good one. Eric gets my stamp. I want to work with him again deeply. But we'll see. Yeah. Why do you think you got emotional there? What do you think that's about?

I mean, I think just what I said, right? That it doesn't, the kind of work that I do doesn't, it's not flashy. So it doesn't pay off in tangible ways very often. And so I very much have... cultivated a sense of like, if I feel good about it, then that's all that matters. Right. I don't have, I can't, I, I love external validation, but I can't rely on it.

So, you know, I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't watch anything I do ever because that starts to put it on an external thing. I want to leave at the end of the night and be like, okay, do I feel like...

I found something, I had a moment that was real, that I connected in some way. If that's true, then I'm happy and I can, that's all I need. So when something like that happens, where... another person vouches for me and says like, like I got emotional at the top of this when you were saying nice things, you know.

that stuff feels really good it feels really good and it's it's validation of you know the little girl that has loved this forever and usually either was ignored or sort of shunned for it you know um you know you talked about acting saving you and you know when i was

very wildly unpopular when I was younger. Um, you know, I stopped talking for a while. There was like a, I talked at home, but like there was a time at school where I just didn't open my mouth because everything I said seemed to sort of elicit some kind of. insults or backlash of some kind. But I'd always loved acting and singing and dancing and doing things like that. So I went out for the play. I don't know why in seventh grade, like just did it. And that was the only time I talked.

at school was like for my lines in the show and so there was a real part of like and then and then uh when i did finally kind of start coming back out of my shell it was with those kids right like the kids that i had done the plays with and they've become my like lifelong best friends yeah so there is a sense of This part of me that is childlike, that wants to be 12 forever, but was so slapped down at that time for being that. Anytime I get any little.

like oh i like 12 year old deb yeah like that little girl needs that healing so badly yeah I did this. I do a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and I did this Dungeons and Dragons show called Relics and Rarities. And literally it was like. 12 year old Deb brain on a paper that I handed to some people and they made a set and we hired people and we did the show and you can watch it, you know, and I didn't realize it at the time.

And then when it came out and people had positive things to say about it, it floored me. Because it was. It was validation that I didn't even know I needed. Because that girl had been so quieted within me. And I had poured her into this show and people were like, oh, I like this. And that was enough to kind of make me shake. I'm a little shaky now. I'm needy, I guess, in that way. And you think this all stems, like 12-year-old Deb, and what was going on in your life then.

I hate it. I hate that like... You hate what? That like 13-year-old kids like determine the rest of my life. Think about like how many people are like walking around with that, right? Well, I mean, that's the thing, right? This is not a unique experience, I feel like.

most people had some form of ostracization or bullying when they were at that age. And it's funny too, because like I look back and I'm like, nobody that I was dealing with were like psychopathic kids that love torture. It's just like a natural, weird. societal order thing that seems to happen around that time. And you kind of end up on one end of that pecking order. So yeah, I hate that it continues to determine.

the decisions i make as a grown-ass woman uh but it's interesting i just did a panel of some other women who also said they were bullied and in this business in this industry and i was like there must be something about like compassionate vulnerable people Because I, you know, that was always a question to me of like, why? Like, why was I so egregious, you know? And I...

Why were you so egregious? Why was I target? Why was this aimed at me? Because you do wonder that. Because there's a part of me that deeply believes that I am an annoying... person who people don't want to be around. That's deeply what I learned. I know that you have that a little bit. Yes. They make lists of like...

prettiest hair pretty side so it's always ugliest girl in school right like and when someone tells you that at 12 when everyone tells you that at 12 you that you believe it right there's a part of that part of you that will never not believe that um Where was I starting? Even like with that, like you're on this list, like you are the ugliest girl in the school.

and then like what 20 years like what you're on true blood well like this like you know feels weird as fuck saying it but like you're like this like international like like sex symbol and like beautiful like again i don't want to go back to like how could you it's not about that but like like what does that do then? Like, do you, like, what does that do when you're like the object? You feel like an imposter. Even though it's something as, as, even though it's like literally like your type, like.

you're on this list with a bunch of like prepubescent, like fucking like, like pimping face losers. And then you're like literally like in the world zeitgeist, this beautiful woman. And one, and, but, but it's, I, I totally, I, I totally understand how you, it's so hard to like, kind of like, it's so hard to, to, to sort of like smash or.

destroy like these these fit but like how does that then compute like what what does that do it's it's awkward i think also you know like we've done these conventions and things and

A lot of times when people meet me on the street, I get a lot of like, you know who you look like, not I know who you are. Because I don't feel like I, like I don't identify as like... like a desirable person i guess um so i always assume that when people meet me i'm a bit of a disappointment that with the hair and the makeup and the lighting and the styling and the setup and everything there and the acting, that that's, you know, an illusion of some kind. And so, but yeah.

you know and again i you know my my brain knows that i am taking this experience and i am blowing it way out of proportion you know like i i know

But again, there's just something about your heart and your gut that... I'm sorry, you feel like you're blowing what out of it? That I know that people aren't disappointed to meet me or that not everyone finds me annoying. But knowing is not the same as... like believing right and so that that fear is always there and you know i part of my response when people are always like oh i can't believe you know you're someone who was bullied you seem so nice or you seem you know

is I kind of go, you know, we present the opposite of our fears, right? Sure. So if my deepest fear is that I am undesirable and unwanted and unlikable, then every action I do is... In contrast to that, it's to make sure that I'm not annoying to you or you like me or that I. So, you know, I've been dismissed as like, oh, you're a people pleaser. And I'm like, fuck you. It is deeper than that. You know, this is a survival tactic.

And it serves me in some ways and it really doesn't in others. I can very much be a doormat. I can very much, you know, as we've been talking about, you know, I jump through a million hoops before I say anything that could possibly. you know, push me in a direction of being a confrontation. Yeah, it sucks, but I don't know. I also feel like I'm a compassionate person. And when I meet people who I can feel have that...

Like that energetics thing where like, oh, I can feel like you're someone who maybe got some of those comments or lived like that, who have that little bit of self-confidence. Like there's a part of me that's like, I'm there. I will be your friend, right? Like I want to be.

I don't want anyone else to ever feel that way. And I don't ever want to feel that way again. So I have that outreach in me. I'm really drawn to people who... i think share that experience you've hung on for better or for worse to this to this um to the trauma that was caused to you as this this young girl And it's still very much fucking alive in you. But I would also argue it's also what makes you.

empathetic and compassionate and loving and kind. It's why everybody, you know, and I know it's like, Deb, I get it. I'm a fucking, I fucking, like, dude, like, you're not, like, I don't know. I know, there's nothing you can say. It's so hard for me to look at you.

It's like, you know, like you are the person. You're the person on every set I've worked. Like you are the pinnacle. You are everybody. You are. And so it's like, like, you know, when I'm going back to do this thing, I'm like, I can't do, I can't.

play frank castle without you i can't like i it's like you want a reason like what's why is he there like what is he doing there it's like if it's not you everyone else has got like you know what i mean so so anyway that's a fuck but but but does the impetus does the feeling ever come up fuck that shit look at me now it's like like does that ever come up no no and and

I do wonder why there's a part of me that goes, maybe it's just like, again, my doormat psychos won't even let me get that far. But there's also something like I talk to a lot of people who's like, they're bully. They know their name. It's a full first and last name. They can remember every instance of thing. It was a rivalry. It was a thing, right? I don't have that.

Because for me, it wasn't like, I didn't get beat up, right? I got socially outcasted and pranked. Prank shows are not funny to me. They just give me hives. How did you get pranked? What do you mean pranked?

So, you know, you want to talk about prank phone calls. Like when your phone rings at four in the morning, you don't think somebody is calling to do a prank. You think someone's dead, right? You think like somebody we love has been in an accident. So a number of times my parents were like woken up or something like that for that or myself, right? You know, I had evil, like cruel notes and things left in my locker. I had, I, you know, I told you, you know.

I stopped showering after gym class because someone took my clothes and like threw them out in the hall. But then you get called stinky because now you're not showering. You know, like it's just a constant thing. Even small things of like, I remember standing at like doors trying to enter my classroom and just being like.

hey, can I get by? And people ignoring me like I didn't exist. So I just waited patiently until they moved and I could get into the classroom. So it's just like consistent, persistent, not cruelty, like outright cruelty, but just like you are not. of value. And. And it wasn't one person, it wasn't. And there were plenty of people who didn't participate, but also weren't my friends, so I didn't, you know.

so it just it feels like a wall i don't have that one person i'm like that's the person who i would say to death it was just a societal Not even choice. I don't know. It's just like a thing that happened. And I do think there's something about, you know, we think pranks are funny. We think even the notes that got left were like lines from movies, you know.

They weren't even original meant for me. So, yeah, I don't think that these were like evil, psychopathic kids. I think they just thought they were being funny and I was an easy target because I was going to cry and not fight back. or I was going to, I was going to just be quiet and not fight back. And I was weird. You know, I was definitely like, cause I, I wanted to be a kid. I wanted to sing and dance and do cartwheels in the hall. And I didn't want to date and drink and go out.

be rowdy right like i just wanted to be an actor you know i wanted to play make-believe in the schoolyard forever and i think it just made me an easy target i was i was a i was a um a non-threatening target. It seems like you had like no relief from this. It was just like you woke up in the morning and you knew you were like facing this. It was interesting. The one movie I can never ever watch is that eighth grade movie by Bo Burnham. I know it's the best movie ever made because I...

I broke into like ancient heaving sobs about halfway through it because that I get that girl. I get her on a level. I don't know how he gets her. I get her on a really deep level. That feeling of like, oh, like your parents made it so that somebody invited you to a party that they don't want you at, but you have to go because they thought they were helping, right?

And it's probably a pool party or something where you have to be in your most vulnerable state. But you go home and you're like, oh, this will be the one, right? This will be the one where I go. And they'll be like, oh, cute suit. Or like, oh, what a great, you practice stories. And they'll be like, oh, what a great story that is. I underestimated you. Like, oh, I wish I knew you were this cool. Like, you make up these fantasies. And then you show up and people ignore you.

and you go sit in the corner and There's like a very unique experience of being like invisible and so conspicuous at the same time. You know, everyone is intimately, energetically aware that you are there, but they are choosing to pretend you're not.

And they're not doing anything purposefully, outwardly. Me, no one's necessarily calling you fat legs or da-da-da or moly or whatever, you know, I would get unwanted, you know? Now as... now as a parent like what did your parents do that worked what was your parent your parents do that definitely didn't work and and how is that going to affect you in case

This, you know, when this rears its head in your life. Yeah, look, I mean, they get let off the hook right away here because I didn't tell them. Partially because of that, because I knew that my parents loved me so much that they would not be able to. help themselves you know.

And what did you think that they would be like disappointed or do you know the opposite that they would, they would run in there and that there would be a school assembly and people's parents would be called. And the fact is I knew that would make it worse. Right. Whether that's true or not.

I don't know, but I knew it would make it worse. I knew it would make me even stand out even more. You know, my solution was as soon as I stopped talking and got quiet and like stopped putting myself out there, it stopped like it stopped. I just was alone. But it stopped, which is a terrible lesson to learn at that age. But it worked. I just knew in my gut that if I got my parents involved, it would make it worse. It would make me a bigger target.

that I had to show enough, you know, it's that don't snitch sort of thing, right? Like I had to show that I was tough enough to take it and I wasn't going to go running to mommy, right? So I think, I mean, I don't actually know what the situation would have been if I had told them, but I did not tell them until many, many, many, many, many years later. And...

I don't know what I'm going to do if this is something I likely will have to deal with with my son. I'm terrified of... school and middle schoolers, middle schoolers are so scary. Um, and I don't, I don't actually know what the answer is other than just to like.

i think what i like what's helped me later on in life is to know that it literally has absolutely nothing to do with me it's so easy to personalize it and go it's because i miss this this and this i think some of that is why i was a target for it but like i bet you most of those kids don't even remember half of the shit they said to me because it wasn't

important to them. They were just saying something funny to be impressive to their friends and not be me, right? They're just fighting to not be me, not be at the bottom. You know, this wasn't like a sit down, we're going to write out a list, a campaign of how to make Deb miserable. It just.

coincided that way. And then became the social dynamic of the school. Of the school. To become somebody who's so wildly talented and so wildly loved and have this beautiful family and this beautiful child and this incredible fucking career and to be so... just beautiful and revered, like that is possible. And I think on the other hand, also for people,

That whether they're going through their own fucking shit and just want to step on somebody's neck or they're just so fucking misguided that they're just going to say something cool because it's going to make that person seem cool. Right. Or they really are just like a deeply troubled. old motherfucker who just like enjoys watching other people suffer or they just want to go along with the fucking status quo whatever it is like these things have like real fucking lasting

But I think it's also like be on the hunt, man. Like be on the hunt for it. Like find the kid that's being made feel that way. Be the person that goes and stands by that kid. Like be the person that like squashes that shit. Like be that. fucking sheepdog like like that is your fucking like that is what you do on this planet i think i think giving it a like there's a big difference between like fighting

for yourself and fighting for a cause, right? Or standing up for somebody else. Yeah. It's way easier than standing up for yourself. Well, or it gives you, it gives you something back, right? For sure. It's not just survival, it's... you know it's defense it's it's you know it's it's being a hero you know and so i i do i do love that idea you know like it's that great show pen 15 i that show i can watch even though i relate to it but there's a part of me that's like but they had each other right

Like that's what made so much of that bullying and that experience of that show survivable is they had someone else. And so I. That's, you know, that's the one thing I would have wanted was like one buddy. And there probably were people who would be, but I was so I was just so afraid at the time.

That I couldn't even reach out, you know, to anyone to kind of make that happen. But yes, I think, yeah, teaching our kids to be the compassionate person who steps forward for others. You know, if it turns out that. you know, my kid is in my position, just trying to instill in him a full sense of self that like, that it's okay to be uniquely you, whoever that is. Right. Unabashedly, uniquely you. And I know that's what got me in trouble, but I don't know. I just want to continue to like...

say that to him and say that to other kids in his class. I'm like, you know, hope that as parents we can, who have been through that, that we can kind of raise our kids to be. aware of it when it happens because yeah like like almost like what you just said that that if there's a kid who's like

Oh, it'll just make my buddy laugh if I prank phone call this kid, you know, and for them, it's nothing. They just don't think it has any impact whatsoever. They just think it's a laugh one night with their friends and they'll forget about it in a month, but it might have a lasting impact for that.

other person just implanting in their mind that it might have more meaning than you think and i think to take a step further that like that one little question that one little hesitation like is that a fucked up thing to do like or like or to see it in your home

boy and be like you know why does he want to hurt this motherfucker and like that right there like whatever you want to call it whether it's like from from from god or from what but like a spark of empathy a spark of compassion if you then act on it and say dude like Why are you doing that? No, don't do that. That is such a fucking opportunity. So I guess if I were talking to anyone who has been a bully or has, you know.

in a bad moment said something cruel to someone else or done something to be funny at the expense of someone else. Anyone who's been in that position. And you know what? I bet more of us have than have not. I've done it, right? We've all succumbed to that. place because society is impossible, but it's just to go, all right, you've made that mistake, move on and be better, right? Like learn from that and, and know that.

What we say and the things that we do have consequences and repercussions for others. And if you feel like you can. Just go, shit, I'm sorry. You know, like I was such an idiot when I said that. And I know so much better now. And frankly, I knew better then. And I succumbed. And I'm so sorry. We are not infallible people. We are very, very fallible, especially when it comes to those societal striations. And so, yes, I guess that's grace.

I don't think that these were bad people. I just think that sometimes the world sucks and these very human pressures that we put on ourselves. But then again, like I said, I'm the kind of person I prefer to. see the best in people. I prefer to assume the best in people. So that's my assumption of back then, that this was never a targeted, mean, malicious thing. It was mean, but not necessarily mean people.

I think we all are stuck in this 12-year-old version of us in one way or the other. Every single person you talk to has a story. Whether they were the bully or the bully, they got it from someone else, right? We all have a story from that. And I think most of the bullies are just... reeling from being bullied just you know just like any way we can just put that on that motherfucker so it ain't on me exactly you know like that's the it's just survival

Yeah. And so it's like, again, it's like, how do we raise these, these youngsters to at least be, cause you know, in some ways, you know, it's like things, things have gotten like way softer and, and like we talk about, you know, like back in the way, like suck it up. Like, what do you want me to do? But, you know, and, but we've also gotten, yeah, you know, maybe by approach, like it's like we tied a ribbon around it and be like, oh, we'll have a conversation.

you know i think navigating things for kids is like way way more difficult and everything's online and hidden and fucking i don't even want to oh my god the whole like Online, social media, constant comparison. You can be bullied when you're home alone. Like I just can't even. Wake up to it and it's like happening before you even get there for sure.

For sure. What would you say to Deb? What would you say to 12-year-old Deb? My therapist has asked me that several times and I still don't know an intro to that either. No, I mean, what I would say is it's not about you. It's just not about you. It's just not about you. You're... the unfortunate, you know, receptor for this experience. But, you know, it just it has defined my personality, my identity more than it ever needed to.

It just didn't need to. Is there any parts of it? Are there any parts of it that were a gift? Well, I guess, I mean, compassion and empathy and understanding for other people. Yeah, that's not like a throwaway. No, that's huge. It's like fucking big shit. It is huge. Drive, probably determination. Definitely. We talk about fear being a motivator and things like that. I think that that is true. It is also an inhibitor.

I love 12 year old Deb. Thank you. I just would do anything. I'm learning. I'm learning to, I'm trying to get back to her. Right? She's cool as fuck, man. And like you, you, you didn't bend. You didn't like go try. I don't know. I don't know. Look, I mean you, my, my husband has it too. He has this really. strong sense of justice and of respect for each individual person.

in their, in the way that they need respect, you know? Um, and so I, you know, I deeply admire that and he fights hard for himself and for other people. And for me, even when I don't want him to, you know, even when I'm like, Oh, I'd rather be quieter about this. He like, no.

You're not allowed to come at my people like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about him. Tell me about Egypt, man. Like, yeah, let's talk about him. He's the best. But like even that, like, you know, I remember we were having dinner. And like conversations about like spouses and things like that come up. And I, you know, I notice a lot of people feel very comfortable complaining about their spouse or talking about like the problems that they have with their spouse. And I.

We have problems. We have arguments. We have all of the things that all couples have. But like my gut instinct is I just, I always want to think the best of my husband. And I really want him to always think the best of me. Even when we fuck up and we do the wrong thing and the thing that hurts the other person. It makes them feel bad. I always want them to know that I'm always intending.

and assuming that he is the best version of himself in every given moment. And I'll say the same to you because you've said several times in this that like wanting to bring your best self to me, you know, I always assume that you are. That is my base. living level I'm that's where I'm comfortable um and it does sometimes I think let assholes take advantage of me and you know this that and the other but I think my husband's amazing I really do and I think that a number of the

best things in my life are because of him and the way that he helps push me beyond my boundaries. Because I'm a risk-averse person, I'm very comfortable just settling in. finding my routine, my thing that I like. And I don't, I don't push very hard into new things. And so I wouldn't be a parent if it weren't for him. You know, there are.

There are places I wouldn't have visited. There are, you know, future plans in our lives that are huge endeavors that I would never think to do. So I think he makes me brave in a lot of ways.

Yeah. In fact, for this, my husband does a podcast sometimes. He hasn't done it in a while, but I, you know, I told him I was nervous to come here and do this. And I was like, so what do you like when, what makes good podcast guests for you? And, you know, he said, I'm sure exactly what you would say, which is like authenticity.

honesty um you know you don't have to be a great yarn spinner like tell great stories because i don't feel like i do that very well um it's just about like being present and talking and being a little vulnerable yeah yeah yeah he's cool yeah he is cool yeah he is cool he's always been really i remember in the the beginning when i started playing that part and i was like fuck dude i'm gonna fuck this up he was so cool to me about it wow he's i mean he's a comic book

you know like guru well he just loves it it's been his whole life and so you know this stuff does really matter to him but but he's the perfect example of that because i think actually the people who love this stuff want it they want you to be great they really they're not against you they're not like sitting back show me what you got they're like oh yeah i really want john to be great at this yeah yeah so they're on your side i think that's right um

And I think that like once they see your, I think in the rare cases when people are sort of like, don't do the work or like about it for themselves, then they see it. And then you've crossed the line. Well, I tell this story all the time about you. because at the time I was a little bit, I'll be honest, I was a little bit like, fuck John. What in the world? So it was. What incriminating? Like, how could you? What? No, you did nothing. You did nothing. Good God. Fucking bullying me, dude. Dude.

I know I didn't learn my lesson. I didn't learn my lesson. Yeah, she smoked more fucking reefer, bro. All right, go ahead. Why? Why fuck me? Okay, no, not fuck you, but... So we, it was, you were about to come on. You'd come on, done the second season. And like me, Charlie, Vince, we knew you were fucking.

amazing. We knew it. No, no, no. We knew it. We'd worked with you. I had a front row seat to that performance. If I don't get to shirk off myself, you don't get to shirk off. You're, you're a part of that. Um, so. You're being announced or the show, something is happening. It must be NYCC, like a convention of some kind, because we're all there up on stage and they play a clip of what we've done so far.

And it's all, all of us, the very end is the back of your head as you're walking down the hallway and you hear, you know, the one bad, two bad, you know, it's like, you're like.

Everybody in that room like wet themselves. They were so fucking excited. They didn't get excited like that for any of us coming out. They were so excited about that. And I sat there and I was like, what the fuck did they... know they haven't seen anything that he's done yet he's the back of his head and some bumbling and they're like think he's the greatest thing since sliced toast like fuck john i would say fuck me too it's not it's not you but there is something about this

space and we go back to like it's not a meritocracy right like that role the cachet that you bring your previous work for sure you're set up right like you're they're ready to just love you And there was, you know, that was a moment where it wasn't so much Fuck John, but just like, wow, that's confirmation of the way entertainment and human brains engage with this stuff. And I was like, so you've seen my work consistently hard.

for three years and I get nothing. And then the back of this head and you're like, I'm like, fuck John, man. Unbelievable. We know he's good, but you don't know he's good. He could suck at this. See, that's so funny because I was.

Like, dude, I was like mortified. I was horrified. And that's the thing. You don't want to be the guy that like, they see the back of your head and they go fucking crazy. And then the show comes out and they're like, eh. Well, you're lucky that you're not that guy. I mean, in this case. you know, so far. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember the first time I met you. We were doing the hospital stuff at the very beginning. And you were, you know, when you sit, you were like this. You were so small when you sort of sat in this chair like this. And... I remember being like, oh, that's John.

I had this thing where, you know, again, because I was like, oh, if I'm ever in a position of like authority, I want to make sure that it's a really welcoming thing. So anytime we had guest stars, co-stars, anyone, I wanted to go up and be like, hi, welcome. Right. We're so excited to have you. Because I just know people will do their best work and work hard if they feel supported and welcomed. For sure.

So I don't I remember coming up to me like, hi, I'm never like just dorky me, you know, but it was very nervous about it. And you're like, yeah, OK, you're very polite. And and, you know, I get asked about you all the time. And. you know, I don't want to ruin your, you know, your image, uh, like your heart image. Um, but I always have to be like, he's very polite and he's very nice.

Why would you be anything else? But I do get the feeling that people want me to be like, oh yeah, he's hard to read. No, man. I heard once in preparation for Punisher, he hiked a- like climb the Brooklyn Bridge. Those things can also be true. Those can also be true. But like I don't want to like ruin the thing he's got going on or people think he's like really like.

Oh, that's so funny. Tough and guarded. No, soft like a fucking baby, man. He's a little. Yeah, I'm just nervous and want it to be good. Yeah, yeah. A little fucking marshmallow man. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I don't know. There's a part of me that feels really honored that that's what I think of when I think of you. Because it's funny, like we used to take pictures and, you know, you were always like, you know.

Dude, this is like make fun of fucking John Day. No, it's not. I always loved it. This is behind the curtain shit. Honesty. What did you say? Honesty. Honesty. Authenticity. All right, keep going. Keep fucking destroying my image. It was always so funny. It was my last fucking job. You'll get to get out of your box. They'll stop typecasting you.

I know. Let's go. Something you're not. I know. You can actually get some sort of, you know, sympathetic. I hope so, man. You know, vulnerable men in there. I hope so, man. But there's something to that, right? I think it's impressive and I think it's interesting and I...

part of what I love about working with you is that there's that duality. It's exactly what I said about like my favorite sets, which is like the ones where you can be like, oh, we're kind to each other. We're polite with one another. We love and respect each other. But like once it's action. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's the only way it can get dangerous, though. Like, to try to create it.

when there's no trust and where it's not totally safe, you can't get totally fucking dangerous. I think then it's like, for me, and like I've said it so many times, it's like the way this thing saved me is like my life was so fucking wild. It was so dangerous. It was so fucking out of control. and then i found a way that i could like put all that into it and and especially i think like becoming a dad and and and and a husband it's just like

To just like love these people so much more than I love myself and to have like a reason to do it for. I do think there's, you know, there's something about the confidence that you bring and the. the sort of steadfast belief in the work.

that I think might make you a little full approach to that. What happened to fucking Marshmallow Man, dog? You will. Let's leave this part in and get rid of... Cut out Marshmallow Man. I'm just fucking with you. But again, you can be both. Yeah, you can. You can't. You can't. You can't. Be confident and vulnerable. I think so. I just don't know how to be vulnerable and confident. I think you fucking do, Deb.

I really think you do. I'll get closer. Well, that's also, I do wonder like, because I'm unfamiliar with it, maybe I just don't recognize it when it's happening. That was your real telling thing. It's like your thing about like being, you know, it's like it does. It's like we say these things. It's like how I always have to, it's funny.

Like I always have to like tell everyone, especially like when I started acting, like I'd always have to like kind of be like, you know, I used to get a lot of fights and you know, I've been in trouble with law. And like, I would always like kind of like lead with that. I think a big part of it was like, I just wanted this.

I just want to make sure nobody fuck with me there because I wanted this to be safe. And it's like, dude, I haven't been that guy in fucking like decades. Like, stop, like, let all that shit go. And like, you've got to like, kind of like tell everybody the narrative of yourself. whether it's right or it's wrong. And I think that they can be empowering. I also think they can be crippling as fuck, you know? Yeah. What was the thing? You know, so many people...

think of acting as like, oh, you must be a good liar or you must be that. And I'm like, no, no, it's the absolute opposite. For sure. I'm a terrible liar. For sure. I'm an excellent truth teller. For sure. Right? You see everything in my cheeks and my eyes. That's what makes me a good actor. It's actually the opposite. And so sometimes all.

that feeling, all of that history, all of that that's churning, you know, we think of actors as like, oh, they should be chameleons. They should change every single time. But I'm like, no, every other art form, whether you're a painter or a director, you're allowed to have a style. You're allowed to say like, here's me. And what matters to me as an artist, and I want to explore those themes in my work. As actors, we should be afforded the same exploration, right? That's not to say that you...

you're seeing through someone else's eyes or through characters eyes. But that's for me what it is. It's Deborah seeing through Karen's eyes and experiencing the world through her perspective. You know, so it doesn't mean that I 100% change who I am to be Karen. And it doesn't mean that Karen is 100% me. But it's what do I as an artist see when I look at the world through her experiences?

And it means I get to bring some of who I am. That's why we do Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth over and over and over and over again. It's because each individual actor... brings themselves to that part and therefore brings out a different aspect of it. And we forget that because film and TV is so single, one-off. We're not interested in multiple interpretations of the same thing. We assume there's a right and a wrong.

There just isn't. You know, like the fear of motivator, like we talked about that, but there's also that thing of like, I think this thing can take on a new life when it's like, this is my sword. Like this is my sword to go like conquer the fucking world. I always like this thing. Judi Dench said that acting was the shy person's revenge. I always really like that quote. Because it does feel that way. It's like, I never felt like I could express myself for fear of being, you know, shut down.

But when I act, I just get to take revenge on all of you and just you have to see Deborah for like an hour, you know, like.

You're going to sit in the dark and listen to me talk. Yeah, that's a little revenge. And just talk a little bit about theater and being on stage. I know that's like your... Yeah. Someday I'll get back to that on the regular. So I'm a very selfish actor in the sense that. My main concern is, have I had an experience that I find artistic and motivating and fulfilling? I'm not super concerned with whether...

the audience likes it, or even that the story gets told in any particular way. I'm, you know, I'm amenable to notes and things like that coming in. But at the end of the day, that's why I do this. I do this because I love doing it. Not because I... even like telling stories or, you know, I just enjoy acting. And the crazy thing is that in film and TV.

You're just sort of a cog. You're a brick in the wall, right? And I want my brick to be as beautiful and as strong and as interesting as it can be. But at the end of the day, someone else is building this wall. Someone's going to paint over it. They're going to put music. They're going to do a whole thing. It's not really my work at the end, which is, again, why.

at the end of the day I've done my part of the work and I just kind of want to let it go hence no need to watch it no need to watch because that's right I've already done it and I had a front row seat to my scene partner's work for sure for sure But with acting, yours is the last hand. There's just nothing that comes... On stage. After you. Right, on stage, yeah. Every single performance is one-on-one with...

the audience with this character, with my scene partners. And that's so empowering and so exciting. And I like the chance that like. trying something new and it failing but knowing I get to do it again tomorrow. And I don't know. There's kind of nothing quite like it. Except maybe Dungeons & Dragons.

Dungeons and Dragons. What about Dungeons and Dragons high, man? I love it so much. Right? I think that might, no? What? Taking Dungeons and Dragons and smoking weed. Oh, oh. You think you're original? Everyone has done that. Oh, is that what everybody does? Oh, okay. I'm a dumb shit. I don't know what Dungeons and Dragons, like I don't, it's like a game.

but like you imagine you're like in the game, right? Yeah, kind of. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just a collaborative storytelling with some characters. And you tell the story? Yeah, I'm a dungeon master. So generally I've written an arc and created a world and then... players explore it. And I make calls as to like how difficult it is to climb a wall or fight a monster or that kind of thing. And so if you say this is a real difficult monster to fight, then...

you've got to come up with a different way of fighting it. Yeah. Or, you know, either it'll, I mean, it can just be like how hard you hit it and how long the thing goes, but it might be, how do you negotiate your way out of it? If you can't actually kill a dragon.

but it's going to eat you, how do you tell it not to? So there are other kind of checks that you can do, persuasions and deceptions and intimidations. And then you decide whether you beat the person who beat the dragon? Yeah, there are stats. There's a lot of math involved that can make that happen. God damn. You want to play D&D? I mean, I'll try. I mean, what do you think? No, like literally right now. Sure. All right. So you, what do you see? You've got a bow strapped to your back.

And you've got a sword and a dagger at your hilt, right? So you're walking through the woods. It's dark. It's at night. Almost no moonlight is coming through. You hear a crack off in the distance. Something large stepped on a branch. What would you do? First thing? How far away is the crack? Give me a perception check. So then you roll dice and we'd see how perceptive you are.

Let's say you roll a 13. And you're pretty perceptive. So you have a plus three to that. That's 16. So I know, okay, 16, that's pretty perceptive. You think it's about 20 feet away. Okay. It's about 20 feet away. I think I'd fucking take out my bow first. So you take it, but you're readied. You're aimed. You're looking at it. Right at where the spot's coming. Yeah. Okay. Slowly creeping towards you, suddenly into view, a little bit of eye shine in the darkness. You see an owl bear. This is a...

10, 15 foot tall monster. It looks like an owl, but it has the body of a bear. It opens its beak and squawks at you. What do you do? Have I ever met an owl bear before? Like are owl bears?

We could do a history check. So this is D&D. You're playing D&D. What do you mean a history check? So a history check would be like in your past, in your history, have you experienced this before? Okay, so how do I check? Yeah, let's check that. You would roll a dice. Let's say you have a low history. You roll a 13, but you have a minus three. That's a 10.

So no, you've never met an owlbear in your life. You have no idea whether it's threatening or not, but it is squawking at you. I'd be like, yo, are you my friend? Are you my foe? Fantastic. You speak to it? Yeah, I try.

Give me an animal handling check. So you'd roll another one. So this is what we kind of see. Based on your character sheet that you've created, you're going to be good and bad at different things. Could I create the sheet? You could, or I could, or you could get a pre-made sheet, that kind of thing. But why don't you just make your sheet that you're great at everything?

wizard who's in school studying books to learn magic you're probably not spending that much time in the gym versus if you're you know a knight who goes out and slays dragons you know maybe you're you're socially awkward and don't know how to talk to people so your charisma

like not be great at everything. You want flaws. Like one of my favorite characters, my friend Tommy played Veros. He was a prince. And the idea was that he was very, you know, he'd been kind of pampered his whole life and everyone always laughed at all his jokes and said that he was wonderful and handsome. But he's actually not that funny. He's not that handsome. He just has been sheltered. So when he got out in the world and started investigating, he thinks.

that he's this charming, suave individual, but his stats, his like literal charisma stats are very low. So he would fail constantly. And part of his story throughout the campaign was him learning that he wasn't as charming as he thought he was. So flaws are great. flaws make good story but it's the goal to win no there is no goals to tell a great story tell a great story and there might be there might be arcs of like one big bad is like hurting innocent people

And there are monsters to fight. So you're motivated to be a hero. And that's what I love about D&D is practicing being a hero. It's practicing protecting the innocent and stopping the bad guy and standing up for your fellow. players. It's the greatest game ever created and it's just collaborative storytelling. You just sit at a table. It's as close as you can get to when you were seven on the play yard just like making up games and stories and I love it.

And I will do it until I die. Fuck yeah. And it saved me through pandemic. It saved me through strikes. You know, like I always had this thing to turn to for creativity and finances, frankly. How finances. people pay me to run games for them and pay me to write campaigns and do things like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a whole side career now.

But it's cool. And like I said, it's that one weird space where we're all nerdy. So I don't... You do it like free of... There's no... Nerves or insecurity. Well, there's nerves and insecurity, but I don't have to worry about not being cool. Whereas like every time I'm on a Daredevil set, I'm a little worried that I'm not cool. I'm not cool enough for everybody. You know.

It's funny, man. I, I, and, and again, we were talking about this and joking about it earlier, but it's like when you say like true blood being cool and stuff, like I, I, I, I, like, I, like. I feel the exact same. I felt like I never could fit in because I was always like this athlete and this boxer guy who was like trying to be an actor. And like, I always felt like, you know, not cool enough. Like I can never like really like speak that.

that that that language and i remember when we were you know when walking dead like first happened you know true blood was like i remember we were at like one of those awards that like one of those like you know like

I don't know, like Saturn Awards or some shit like that. And I remember like... you know walking dead hadn't come out yet but me and sarah were there and we had to announce something and i'm and they showed like the like the like it was like the true blood cast and like it was like close-ups of their face that we and like me and sarah walked out and i remember who it was but like one of the main

women on that cast. And she was like, hey, like, like, like that, like kind of like, like zombie show. And I was like, yeah, that's her. Hollywood is a weird space where either you were always cool. Or you were like your story where you're like, I was a nerd or I was a, sorry, I was a jock who didn't really do this stuff, but fell in love with it and then felt like an imposter because I didn't come from the weird artsy.

Click. Or you're me, who was always the weird artsy kid who then goes into Hollywood and everyone's cool and wants to party. And I'm like, oh, I don't know how to do that. You know? So it's a weird space where... Yeah. I don't know. I, I, I don't, you know, I, at those industry parties, I always end up in the kitchen doing dishes with the caterers. Cause I just, yeah, I've done that several times. Like one of the Netflix parties, like at Ted Sarandos's house.

You went into the kitchen store doing dishes? I did dishes in the kitchen because I was so nervous. I didn't know who to talk to or how to be there. So I went in to use the bathroom or something like that. And I don't know. I just was like, oh, let me get that. I don't know. I don't know. My brain needed.

something to do yeah you know i think that's also why games and stuff help me because it's like an activity and i can get to know people better if it's not just talking if it's like oh we're playing a game and i'm learning who you are yeah So there's something about like, oh, I need to do something like helpful for the world right now instead of just standing at some fancy house pretending that I am fancy and belong. Yeah.

I don't know. Those things are getting easier. I mean, like I avoid them because I just want to be with my kids about time, but they're getting easier because I feel like I know people. Like I get to see old friends. You know what I mean? I don't know. I don't know very many people. Yeah. That's another downside of being introverted in this industry. Yeah. I don't tend to hold on to those relationships very, very well. That's tricky.

This art forum, this act, all of it has, was really very important to me for a very long time because of how I came into it and how much I put into it and how much I had to prove that I deserve to do it and all of that. And the problem was, is that anytime it went poorly. that shattered me because it was the only thing I had going for like what is my identity what is my value and so when it went badly that fell as well and my husband really wanted to be a dad

And I had never seen myself being a parent. It was not part of my plan. But we kept talking about it and it got to the point where I was like, oh, if I don't do this with him, I will be denying him like a core need, a dream of his. And I can't do that. I sat down and I went, you know what? It would also be really healthy for me if I had something I cared about more than all this bullshit. Totally. You know? And I kind of knew in my gut that that's what...

Kids do. For sure. Right? And you don't really know until you know. Until you know, but I knew. But then you know, yeah. You know, and part of the problem was, is that like the main narrative I had gotten about parenting, especially as a mother, was like martyrdom and you're never going to sleep again and you give up all your identity for your kid. And like it was all this like terrible stuff. And I was like.

Why would you do that unless you were called to it? And I've been so grateful to have been proven wrong. It's just the best. He's my favorite person in the world. And I genuinely... We'll choose him over pretty much anything else nowadays. And so, yeah, that like. When I used to skip an industry event or whatever because I was nervous or didn't want to go or, you know, that always felt like cheapening out, cheapening out or like chickening out is what I mean. Yeah. But now I'm like.

oh no, I just want to spend time with him. For sure, for sure. And nobody can question that. All the shit you want them to be able to do, you got to try to do it yourself. And all the shit you don't want them doing, like try to cut those things out. Yeah. You know, of like letting the base parts of yourself win, like making the better decision, like just being that.

yeah well you know like i i was a self-deprecating person i was the kind of person that would walk around and say cruel things about myself because there's that little bit of armor that's like if i say it first um but i you know consciously stop doing that in front of him and really all together. Um, because it's, I don't, I don't want him picking up that habit. Right. I want him to think he's.

I want him to be confident and to feel proud of who he is and his identity. So yeah, I, you know, you talk about wanting to be the best version of yourself around someone. Yeah. But it's also, it's, I don't know, it's oddly for me, it's been easy. It's been so easy to be that with him. He brings out the best of me. And I didn't think so. Because parenting was not on my list or my vision for myself, I really thought it was going to be harder.

And you know me, I prepare too much. I've read all the books. I do all the things you're supposed to do. But I've been genuinely surprised by how natural I feel in the role and how much I crave it.

Like we spent all day at the zoo yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing, nothing, nothing better. I mean, I just want to get back to theater. I just want to do more plays. I don't have like a. type of character or one particular role or anything that's particularly it calls to me i just want to do more plays and i i I'm not even all that well read. I know a lot of people who read all of the plays and all of the screenplays and all this, and I just...

I don't know, I'm interested in acting more than literature. I was a math and science geek as a kid, right? That's where I come from is the problem-solving side of it. You know, I want to go like, oh, this text is a… Not a problem, but it's a blueprint that I get to then, you know, extrapolate. So just really that's it. More theater. I used to sing a lot and I don't do that anymore. That would be a dream come true to like...

do a Sondheim piece, but I had an opportunity to audition for one this last year and I chickened out. I didn't do it. You did? You chickened out?

Why'd you chicken out? Because I don't think I'm a strong enough singer right now. It was the kind of thing where I was like, I could submit this and be really embarrassed by the quality of work that I submit and therefore never get the opportunity to do it again. Or... I could try to recommit myself to getting this skill back in shape and then go for it.

But I talked myself out of it. Yeah, you talked yourself out of that, motherfucker. I talked out. One thing, that's some bullshit right there. You could have laid down the shittiest tape you ever fucking... I mean, literally, you could have done nothing. And that wouldn't have prohibited you from doing it. It's a real worry. It's a real worry for some reason. Yeah. But that's something I would like to get. If at some point the time and the energy comes back, I'd like to make.

that a priority and start feeling confident in that skill again yeah um because i do love sondheim and i i do you know i used to love i used to love singing and dancing and having that be a part of my my world but then in film and tv you don't do it very much so it kind of kind of went to the wayside yeah yeah i think because because that early those early years where i wasn't talking and wasn't feeling accepted. And the plays were the only place where I did feel that way, where I felt.

Like, oh, this is something I do well and something that people like me for when I do it. And that was very healing. And I think that I latched onto that pretty hard. I don't know. I mean, I guess you could call it trauma. I shy away from words like that. Maybe because I I feel a need to downplay it. And I guess in a world where like really significant traumas happen.

there's a part of me that like is resistant to labeling this the same way um it's deeply affecting and and identifying for me um so those those are the words i generally like to use um Is that, is that?

yeah i don't know no no no no i mean like i don't know it's like i mean even on this podcast you have people on here who can talk about genuine life-threatening i don't know terrifying things you know and i don't know i i struggle to place my experiences in the same category i don't know i mean i i think like our our shits are shit and and you know

we're talking about something happened to you at like such a, like a, like a ridiculously extraordinarily vulnerable age. It's like the age that, that, you know, like my kids are in now. And it's something that just like the goal, just like any, anything else is like, to talk to the people who are perpetrating the people who are being victimized by it and to try to

See, you know, there's not only a way out, but there's a way to kind of like make it, you know, potentially work for you. And if anything, you know, I do kind of go like, oh, this is actually a more relatable. universal experience we have all been on one side if not both of this of this experience i am not unique in that regard and and so um

And we're like, we're in an age right now where like saying something bad about somebody or like writing something bad about somebody is so fucking commonplace. And it's like, we can't just, it's like, you can't have a conversation with about any topic or any person without.

being completely binary that's so fucking weird that's like and and i think that just in the same way it's like you it makes you a sheep like you're just going along and it's like like have thoughts and like i think to like go into situations kind of with an open heart and an open mind and be like, oh, who are you? Like, what are you about? And to be curious, I don't know, rather than to judge and close down. Make it a competition. I think so. I think so.

Well, I'm really happy to see you and I'm very grateful that you did this. Hey, we actually know each other more now. A little bit. A little bit. We'll have lunch. Yeah, yeah. Smoke some weed. Lunch is next. Yeah, yeah. High lunch is next. Bye.