From High Stakes to Rock Bottom | Ed Toller

Appoche production.

Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world by a huge margin. Daylight is second.

Australians lose more money gambling than anyone.

Else on Earth.

Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just as staggering.

In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period, Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and.

We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are

Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me.

How do you reflect on what happened to you and your journey to this moment?

Yeah, I mean you.

Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and gambling and the money that I took and the eventual consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like, or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty years ago, but chose to.

I guess it's not that I.

Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid thinking about it because I could see that gambling was a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to admit that early on in the piece.

You were born in England, and I think you all gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth.

Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with horse racing for a big part of my life through one way or another. You know, I had some family ties within the industry. I loved it.

I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think it's something that, unfortunately.

You either really like it and take a really good interest in it or it's just never for you. And I think unfortunately I was one of those people where it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about the gambling. It was more about the theater of the

Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're involved in racing back in England and I think you were warned off tracks for a couple of years there. There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth, and you were caught up in that, and I guess your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia, What was your plan?

Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly.

Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks in the UK for twelve months, that was a real shock to the system.

You know, I let a lot of people down.

And I never saw myself in that position before that happened, and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah, ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think that I was going to exploit a.

Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia.

The move, it was all about a change of scenery, a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know, little did I know that landing here, I was landing in the gambling capital of the world, which.

You know it certainly isn't.

After a week, I went into a pub and it had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like, it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought, this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free,

Because you were a student of the form you would have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously.

When did it all start to go wrong?

I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner, always never had a problem studying the formula of something I was obviously quite good at.

I could find winners. You know, I had.

Access to information that others might not, so I had an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you. And I think it began to unfold in two thousand and fourteen and I had a business. I had a couple of clients that I could see avenues where I could utilize their funds to try and make more money

And I wasn't making right decisions.

And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve, and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years. It's such a small period of time for someone's life to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time and the time that I got arrested, it's a three year gap where everything just went boom.

Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't go that way. I think it's very common story.

Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar of any of the client's money, the truth be known. What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out

Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much, until people realized that they probably.

Weren't going to see their money again.

And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that money because I gambled it.

Because I think a lot of people see this situation as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological, compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens to people in their day to day as they're in the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific. Tell us what an average day was like for you as you're chasing your losses.

What would you do?

Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at that sort of level, you know, I might be having two or three hundred bets a day.

You know what I find probably.

More soul destroying about it is that, you know I wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today. You know, I used to say to myself that I didn't like to win early because if I won early, I wouldn't stop.

I would run out of money by the end of the day.

Because I think I can win time after time, So if I win too early, it's no good. But you know, my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know, I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses until the middle of the night.

You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had.

There was only one time from one company did an individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets today or in the last week, You've had this money number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company was set up. They didn't make direct money out of me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them. It was more a case of I was just a

Because you did know the forms, there must have been good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I can stop this.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I mean there was times where I won a lot of money, and you know, I would use some of it to function life, like you know, paying my rent. Because people think, you know, a lot of what was written in the press is ah, he lived this big, lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I could get the records. My phone got cut off every second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty.

Dollars a month telephone bill.

So you know, as much as it's looked upon that I was living lavishly, I was living day to day hand to mouth because all the money that I had was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know, there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler, I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler, I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be able to do these things.

And you know, I look back at that now and I'm ashamed.

Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it wasn't a true reflection of me.

And I know that.

And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks, and there'll be people that will say good on for turning it around. But the reality is, I know in myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah, it can come in any shape.

Or size, because what you say is correct, because every gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values and where they found themselves, and they live in this limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt, which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was your personal rock bottom?

It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail, and then I went there, and I think ultimately that was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd been sentenced for so long. I got such a high, big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by

Ultimately, this is probably what I need.

Because the judge didn't spare you.

He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down in his remarks, and he talked about the people that you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees, putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted to communicate to you.

Did you feel that way.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the right sentence, and I think that it was a just outcome for the crime that I committed.

You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I was a gambler.

But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court, and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know, I speak to people all the time and through gambling arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh, you know, that.

Sentence was ridiculous.

But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down with what I did.

You know, that's something that I've got to live with, but they've also got to live with it.

So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached to that, and you know, I need to be held accountable for what I did, and I feel.

Like I was.

You know. At the same time, the people who are probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in the jail cell on your own and you realize you're sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face.

What's that like?

It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were.

Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought that they would have been quite close friends. And I wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do would ever deter them from having a friendship with me. But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty percent of the people that I was with prior to going to jail I no longer am. And there was

No?

Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it to someone else, or they're probably living a life that you know, maybe they regret some of it as well, i'd hope.

Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where I also grew up as well, and I understand the tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you can back it in that they would have attached themselves to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail, you met a different class of people. You went to a private school in England, well educated, you know, here you're meeting people with no chance in life who were

Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously you touched on the fact that I lived in the Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of the I'd almost call.

It far removed from reality in a hones Stone.

And when I went in there, you know, I went to a number of different jails within New South Wales, but I met so many people that have literally had the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had

Murder shows and all this whatever else.

But the reality is that the people who are committing day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep returning in and out of.

The system year in, year out.

It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out here because there's no need for it, you know, there's no need for people to hear about it. But I think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read, you know, wanted to translate a message across to a judge when they were going in for you know, some form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write something to the judge, not letting him or her know

Well it was.

I guess it was a humbling moment where you could look at your life to that point and what it could be from here on in. And I mean five years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment, but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if

I mean, they ran a couple of things when you go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you a load of questions and they say, are you addicted to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with, and I did, but I think it took like two and a half years before I got into a program

I mean it's better than nothing.

But to me, it was verging on a waste of time, you know, And a lot of people have to do it. They make people do it in order to get certain classifications and potentially even get parole or you know, whatever it may be. So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic, you have to sort of volunteer the fact that you want to give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work.

You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem.

Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have said at a screening question that they might have drunk too much or taken drugs from time to time. So really that was the only thing that was offered. And gambling's rife in jail in Australia, Like it's everywhere. I gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble on the footy, the NRL horses anything, play poker, play cards. You probably gamble more in there than you would on

Yeah, it's everywhere.

Which can be dangerous and frightening. In jail is certainly both those things, but it's also incredibly boring too, and you've got to pass the time somehow. You're facing this five year stretch. How you're feeling each day.

Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and bloated and a mess from all the drink and the drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I pretty much said to myself that I definitely wanted to fix that up. So that was one of the first things that I did, was fitness and got myself in better shape. But I mean, you can only do that to some form of level. It depends what jail you're in, but you know, you're locked in a cell a lot

You're very limited in what you can do.

You're very limited in what you can eat, what you get access to you know, you have a certain number of TV channels, whatever. But I think that you've got to be able to reflect when you're in there, because that's a lot of your time is going to be spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing a long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do.

You know, you can read. I wanted to study when I was in there. I wasn't allowed to.

That was a big bummer for me because early on in the thing, I've really expressed an interest in looking into doing a psychology degree, but there was no assistance. Yeah, it was just very They made it harder to do it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's just I think that's a reflection of the system itself.

Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and that's always been the notion of jail. If you can make it a little bit harder than people liked them that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But as you say, you get that time to reflect, and I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies, all that type of stuff. But it's not like that, is it. It's a gradual coming back to yourself and closing that gap between what you'd become and who you really were.

Well, a lot of.

People love going to jail because they make money in there, or it's an opportunity for them. You learn from the best in there if you want to become a career criminal.

So there's two aspects of it.

You can either go in there under the notion that you really want to sort yourself out and get something from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, or you're going in there and you come out worse than you went in. And I think that's a part of the reason that we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the system is because of the lack of stability, or lack of programs, or lack of help that there is within

And that was my notion.

And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so I knew that it was about me being punished, and you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and that meant waiting a certain period of time to get certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished any chance of any work release or early release or.

Anything like that.

So that was all removed from me, which is a normal aspect of prison for most people these days.

With a decent sized sentence.

That you will get the opportunity to go out to the community prior to your release and either work or you'll get day release or weekend release, and all of that was removed through COVID, So you know, I took a few knocks on the way, and then eventually when I got out, I knew I just had to make some changes in life.

Because you went in at thirty four, a good time, Charlie, having a great time of it. You hit the sober reality of Porridge in jail, and you come out nearing forty. The world has changed completely. You're hoping to make changes yourself, but when you walk out, you see there's a gambling opportunity on every corner. It's in your phone, it is everywhere. How did you confront the hard moment of giving up your gambling addiction.

Yeah, I was really fortunate that when I came out, I met someone. That person was in a twelve step recovery and recommended that I go to a meeting of gamblers anonymous, and I went to a meeting, and if I'm honest, the first.

One didn't really rock my boat. I wasn't taken with it.

And I gambled again for a month or two and you know, nothing drastic, but I didn't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy the gambling like I felt this sense of chasing, chasing, chasing, which I didn't enjoy, and I wasn't drinking.

So I was sober as well.

So I started going to some more meetings and I just I started to meet people that have gone through what I was going through and hearing what they've gone through and hearing that there was some form of solution, and I just decided to give it my best shot.

And I haven't looked back since.

And I think that ultimately there's success within unity and groups. Like when you see someone else tread a path and they're successful, you kind of want.

What they have.

And I think that that's what I've probably got now from that. And yeah, it's been a huge, huge help to me. But like you say, advertising and gambling, advertising and the fact that pubs and clubs and Pokeys and every bookie under the sun can advertise, the reality is that I don't think that's going anywhere. The Pokeyes aren't going anywhere, the bookies aren't going anywhere. Horse racing, greyhounds, it's not going anywhere. You know, the footy, the sport, whatever,

Without I disagree with it all the advertising lite.

I don't think it should be allowed to be put in front of our children and kids and the youth of today.

But ultimately they seem to get away with it.

Nothing's being done on the Murphy recommendations, which is very sad.

You know, we've just re elected.

Alban Easy and I don't really believe that he is that interested in making any change to it, which is unfortunate. Again, but I don't think that any of them were prior to the election, if I'm honest, and I think that a lot of them would use it as a potentially a sounding board to try and get voters, but I think ultimately there's too much money coming through it.

So you've got to work out a.

Way where you can stay away from this without that being reality. And I think that that's what I've had to do, and I know plenty of other people that do it, and I think that's, you know, the best avenue to use at this stage.

Because governments have a massive conflict of interest in Australia. As much as they'd like to promote responsible gambling messages and so forth, it's inescapable that our budgets rely upon gambling taxes and excise, and that industry relies for its success on the two or three percent of problem gamblers like you, So I can't see how it's ever going to change. It's always up to the individuals such as yourself to do that. And as you say, you're always

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And I think I mean for me personally, I just do what I've been doing for the last three and a half years, which is I'll concentrate on myself. You know, I might try and talk to people wherever possible who are going through the same scenario.

That I was.

I think that helping people is a huge part of recovering oneself.

Look, I'm very in touch.

With what they're doing in the UK at the moment in terms of around gambling and the legislation, and they're doing affordability checks and that's been a huge driver. If someone had come to me when I was in the midst of my gambling and said, how are you affording to do this? I wouldn't have been able to prove my income, and so that avenue of opportunity would have

They're going to take it.

Yeah.

And when I pick up the newspapers every day, almost there's another story about a fraud, an embezzlement, straight out theft, people stealing to gamble, and that also doesn't include the amount of money that's stolen from families. It's never reported. So you've had a chance to see the extent of this problem. And I don't think it's getting any better.

No, And I think.

That you hit the nail on the head Gambling is a disease, and the feeling that it gives you is a drug. It's just the same as taking drugs. There is a rush like no other when you're doing it, and so for an addict, if he has to steal money to do it or she has to steal money to do it, they will do that, just like a drug addict will take money to go and score drugs. It's the same thing, but it's not universally recognized as.

A problem, and that is the problem. The problem sits within the problem.

And yet when people come for sentencing, there is no mitigation for a gambling addiction the way that you might have for other forms of addiction, including drugs. You're getting the highest possible sentence, and the media often portrays these gambling criminals, if you like, as losers, as the exception, the people who didn't have the moral fiber, couldn't take

You never set out.

To do this, but it was your addiction that drove you in a place and I love the fact that you're not ashamed to admit what you did and take responsibility. But there needs to be, in my opinion, some mitigation given to people like you and sentencing.

Yeah, I mean, look, I had two guys I know and have had a bit to do with in the last couple of years, have both been sentenced for similar crimes to mine, And when there were sentences, I was just, honestly, I was fabergasted by the sentences that they received. I was just I'm dumbfounded because their cases pointed towards the

You know, it just doesn't make sense to me.

You know, if someone was high on drugs and went and robbed a house, there's mitigating factors there because they wouldn't do it.

Potentially in their right mind or in a sober state.

So what's the difference seeing a gambler taking money from his employer to gamble with or someone stealing who's high on drugs.

To me, there's no difference there whatsoever.

Well, I totally agree. And one thing that I've noticed about gamblers, I mean, I guess drug x as well, is that it's very isolating. People spend all their time feeding this addiction. One psychologist in Canada I've spoken, he talks about feeding the baby tiger. At the beginning, it's fun, it's cute, and it's novel, but it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and it takes up all your time feeding this ravenous tiger. And by the end you've exhausted,

Yeah, I mean, I think suicide is just at an all time high around the world, but here in Australia. I know, I was looking up some statistics of it the other day just through pure interest, and I think there was something like thirty eight hundred suicide deaths last year.

And I think I mentioned to.

You that I really despise the way that the media talk about suicide or they don't talk about it. If someone commits suicide, you basically are playing a guessing game, reading the article until the very bottom where it says cool lifeline if you've found this disturbing, or if you've know someone that's going through this. And I find that this is about awareness. Unless people know about it, this

Because you've been in that dark place between your own perception of yourself and your values and what you've become a lot of people find that reflection awful, and you did some terrible things, you admitted to it. Did you ever get to that dark place where ending it all seemed a convenient way out.

Yeah, yep, you know, certainly the first couple of days in Surrey Hill's lock up and I got arrested initially, and then you know, after I got sentenced, I was like, I've got so long to go. I don't know if I really want to do this. I'm not going to have anything when I get out. But my family, you know, I hurt them so much, and that would have been the icing on the cake to do that. And I, you know, I owe my family everything because they stood

But ultimately, my relationship with them has never ever been better.

And I look back and think of some of those thoughts that I had when I was thinking about doing the worst thing, and I'm just really grateful that I came to my senses, because I told you the other day, I lost a friend earlier this year to suicide, and ultimately I wasn't that surprised by it. But also what it leaves behind is absolute and utter carnage, and I just don't believe that that's a good way to leave a legacy.

That's right and you're now in your early forties, you've come out the other side of this.

How does life look?

Because I reckon, he's still a young man, because like I'm sixty two, so everyone's young in their forties. How do you see the future from here that you may not have been able to see before?

Yeah, I consider myself still quite young because I'm an immature baby, if you like, who's only just started working out how to live life properly on the right side of life. I guess you know. I lead a very simple life these days. I have a very beautiful partner who understands and respects a lot of what I've been through and a lot of what I've done.

And yeah, I lead a very healthy lifestyle. I don't drink, I don't.

Gamble anymore, and I've started to appreciate life for what it is. I mean, I came to Australia and I did the opposite of what the real culture is here, especially where I live, which is fitness and good eating

Sure, unlucky in gambling, lucky in life. Ultimately, it's an amazing story. And I'm sure there are people listening here right now who are confronting exactly the same issues that you confronted, and they're doing it in silence. They're doing it and they're concealing things, they're contemplating how to feed the gambling addiction. What would be your message if you could speak straight to their hearts.

I think I'd just say, look, I think twice, because whatever you do now, you won't be able to take back. And I can assure you that the other side is not where you want to be. And I think that you know, if it's gambling that's an issue, there's avenues of help. There's plenty of avenues you know, pick up the phone.

And I don't think there's enough of this.

I know that us as blokes, especially like we never talk about our problems with each other. And you know, I know there's a number of mental health charities that are very helpful and I really am a massive advocate for that because I've seen the power of one person picking up the phone to another work on so many different occasions that I would just say, before you're going to do anything's really stupid, pick up the phone first and speak to someone, and if.

You still want to go and do it after that, you know, we can't stop you.

But you know, I think if it's going to be the wrong thing that you're going to do, live with the consequences of what you're going to do, because they will come. You know, we don't go through life with no consequences. Eventually it catches up with us. And you know it did for me.

It was the making of me, but that might not be the case for everyone.

Ed. I really appreciate you sharing your story today. It's taken a fee bit of courage and also some courage to admit your mistakes and move beyond them.

I wish you all the success in life. Thank you so much for your time.

Thanks Adam, it's been an absolute pleasure.

And yeah, I was really overjoyed to be coming on this, so thanks very much for having me.

That was Ed Toller. He's learned a very hard lesson.

They fall from a very high place to a very low place, and it's something that a lot of families, a lot of individuals are contemplating. In Australia. We are in the grip of a severe epidemic effort. If you have seen yourself in the story we've told, I want you to look in the description on this podcast. You'll see some lines from the places you can get help.

Do it.

Don't miss out because your life is your life. Don't let it be destroyed by your addiction. Face up to what you're doing and try to make amends because take it from Ed, five years in jail is a hard way to learn those lessons. This has been a real crime with Adam Shanned. Thank you for listening.