RAR #258: How Picture Book Illustrations Tell Half the Story with Charles Santoso

Charles Santoso (00:00): I love picture books. I love the object, I love the smell. I love the people that made it, really nice people and then very, very talented. Because to me as an illustrator, of course the best part of it is illustrating and stuff. But when it's combined with a text, oh, it's just magic. It's truly magic. Sarah Mackenzie (00:20): Like I'm feeling this deeply because I'm like I feel this way about picture books too. And I feel like it's very immersive. And also then when you get lucky enough to be able to be making one, you get to see all the thought and care that goes into each tiny thing. Every part of a picture Book is part of the story. (00:42): Welcome to the Read Aloud Revival podcast, the show that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. I'm your host, Sarah Mackenzie. And I am thrilled to be talking today to the incredibly talented illustrator, Charles Santoso. Charles has brought so many beloved books to life with his whimsical and heartfelt illustrations. And he's the illustrator of my newest picture book, Dear Duck, Please Come! Today we're diving into the collaborative process of creating a picture book, the inspiration behind Dear Duck, Please Come!, and how illustrations tell fully half of the story. And hey, this is a video podcast, so if you would rather watch it rather than listen, head to readaloudrevival.com/video to watch this episode and other episodes of the podcast on YouTube. Let's dive in. (01:42): Okay, I'm just going to admit it, Dear Duck, Please Come! is the most fun I've ever had writing a book. The idea for it came to me when one of my twins said, "Mom, I lost my tooth." And I was just in sort of a silly mood that day, so I instantly responded, "Oh, no, we'd better find it." And then I thought, huh, that's kind of funny. So I proceeded to write this story, which opens with Duck checking his mailbox and finding a letter from Rabbit. "Dear Duck, please come. I lost my tooth." Well, Duck knows that a good friend thing to do is to help his friend with his problem. So he's going to help Rabbit find that tooth, and he looks all over a Piney Glen gathering companions along the way. Do they find the tooth? Well, you'll have to read it to find out. (02:43): I wrote the words to this story, but that's only half of the story. Fully half of it happens in the illustrations, and they are hilarious and pretty brilliant illustrations by Charles Santoso. Now, Charles was born in Indonesia, raised in Australia, and now he lives in Singapore. He's illustrated tons of books we love here at Read Aloud Revival. And I was over the moon when he agreed to illustrate Dear Duck, Please Come! Here's my conversation, the first time I had met Charles face-to-face in fact, after we'd made the book together. Here's my conversation with Charles Santoso. (03:25): So Charles, this is the first time you and I are meeting face-to-face, which we were just chatting about, which is pretty wild because we've made a book together. Charles Santoso (03:35): Yes. Hi, Sarah. Sarah Mackenzie (03:35): So it seems funny that this is the first time we've actually... Yeah, nice to meet you. Charles Santoso (03:38): Nice to meet you. Sarah Mackenzie (03:39): This is so fun. Okay, well, I've long been a fan of your illustrations. Charles Santoso (03:42): Thank you. Sarah Mackenzie (03:43): And you have such this wide range of styles. I am so curious to know as a kid, which illustrators you loved best, or when you were young, I don't know, even now, I'm just kind of curious, who are the illustrators that you gravitated toward? Charles Santoso (04:01): So when I was a kid, there wasn't too many books that I can find back then because it's quite rare because I was born in Indonesia. So it's like I have to go to library and stuff to find these beautiful books and stuff. But I found some great ones. For example, Richard Scarry, my mind was blown when I saw that. And there's some encyclopedia with dinosaurs, drawing and stuff like that, some gnomes, like books about gnomes and stuff, and apparently it's really well known from Netherlands. So a mixed bag and stuff like that. But when I'm starting to grow older and stuff like that, so I started to know more and more. And now I'm quite old now, and I just love lots and lots and lots of illustrators more and more. And the more I explore this world of picture books, the more I love it. I used to read a lot of fairy tales book when I was a kid because that's what I can find, and lots of beautiful drawings in there and stuff like that. So I know all the fairy tales and [inaudible 00:05:13] and stuff like that. And then they always have beautiful drawings. But now I know who drew them and I even get to meet some of them. So the quick answer to your question is lots and lots of them. Sarah Mackenzie (05:26): Yes. The fact that you mentioned Richard Scarry makes so much sense to me because one of the things that really delighted me about the illustrations for Dear Duck is how much storytelling is happening in the pictures. There's just a whole sub story happening, like with the turtle. We'll talk about it. But that reminds me- Charles Santoso (05:48): The turtle, yes. I love the turtle. I love the turtle. Sarah Mackenzie (05:50): Oh my goodness. I can tell by the way that you handled his illustrations. And the whole stories that you gave him with the pictures alone really feels like it's a nod to sort of Richard Scarry's, the stories that he gave without any words, just the storytelling he did with his pictures. Charles Santoso (06:07): Right. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I mean I have to mention, of course Arnold Noble, not Arnold Noble, but Arnold Lobel. Sarah Mackenzie (06:16): Lobel. Charles Santoso (06:17): Lobel. And also of course like Maurice Sendak and stuff like that. But it's just so fun to illustrate your story. Sarah Mackenzie (06:23): Oh, gosh. Charles Santoso (06:26): I'm honored to get this really fun one. Sarah Mackenzie (06:30): Well, and I should mention here because I didn't know this until kind of recently that you and Joe Sutphin I think are pals, right? Charles Santoso (06:38): Oh, Joe is great. Joe is great. Sarah Mackenzie (06:38): Yeah. So Joe is one of my favorite illustrators. He's been on the show. And he's going to be illustrating a book of mine in a couple of years. Charles Santoso (06:47): Oh, fantastic. Sarah Mackenzie (06:48): Yeah, yeah, so fun. Charles Santoso (06:49): There you go. Sarah Mackenzie (06:49): So that connection was like, oh, you guys know each other. Of course you do. That's so fun. Charles Santoso (06:54): I mean, the world of illustrators are so great. I mean, I'm so fortunate and grateful to be able to meet my peers online and stuff. So when a lot of people say like, oh, social media is really toxic and stuff, I actually, of course there's some toxicity and stuff like that, but I'm actually grateful for social media because I get to meet lots of people that really admire and stuff. And Joe is one of them, of course. And we, sometimes I remember that he used to send me messages, say how are you doing and stuff like that, we just chat. And yeah, we've become friends. It's great. Sarah Mackenzie (07:28): Do you ever see someone's illustration or a book and go, "Oh, my gosh. Man, I wish I had illustrated that," does that ever happen to you? Charles Santoso (07:37): Well, if you actually asked me let's say 15 years ago, then I would say lots of them. For example, oh, Where the Wild Things Are, I wish I illustrated that and stuff. But the more I become illustrator myself as in a picture book illustrator, the more I think like, oh, actually each of them are actually quite unique in terms of solving the story, the way they tell the story and stuff like that. So I'm just happy for them to actually just show me what their visions are and for me to actually just struggle with my own way of solving, not solving, but telling a story in a way. Sarah Mackenzie (08:20): Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I can see that influence in your work because, I said this earlier, but you do have such a wide range. There are some illustrators who you just know, like Tomie dePaola, who's a friend of mine, you just know. Charles Santoso (08:32): Oh, what? Sarah Mackenzie (08:34): Yes. Charles Santoso (08:35): Love Tomie's work. Oh my goodness. I mean, his- Sarah Mackenzie (08:39): In fact, can you see? I have to move my head for you to see. I have an original piece of his art right behind me. Charles Santoso (08:43): Oh my goodness. That is, I'm so jealous. Sarah Mackenzie (08:47): Yeah, his assistant sent that to me after I got a chance to speak at the postal service. They made a Strega Nona stamp after he passed away, the USPS did. And they do this big ceremony. Charles Santoso (08:59): Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Sarah Mackenzie (09:00): I was invited to speak there and oh gosh, it was beautiful. Charles Santoso (09:03): Oh, Strega Nona is amazing. Sarah Mackenzie (09:03): Anyway, you see it's a Tomie dePaola illustration and you're like, oh, I know who made that. And then there's other illustrators like LeUyen Pham is one who comes to mind, who has such a wide range that sometimes I'll be like, "Whoa, this was by LeUyen Pham too? This is crazy." Very prolific too. Your style is like that. You have Feathers Together, and what's another one, Ida. Charles Santoso (09:28): Ida, Always, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (09:28): Yes, Ida, Always, that's got this vibrant, really colorful, almost kind of- Charles Santoso (09:34): Very painterly, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (09:35): Yes, painterly, yes, soft. And then there's Dandy that has stronger lines, bold shapes. And then Feeling Grateful and Finding Muchness, which are, I don't know, how would you describe them? Charles Santoso (09:48): Very kind of like in a pencil drawings, very yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (09:52): And there's a limited color palette. Charles Santoso (09:54): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (09:55): And when I'm looking at them, I think, well, this is the only way this could have been told. Of course you'd use this method. Because it's so easy to say that as the person looking at the picture book. But how do you know, how do you decide which style to use? And is there a style you like using more than others or is it just... Talk to me about that. Charles Santoso (10:13): With every story that I get, because I have to love the story first... I mean, I'm grateful to get all these wonderful stories in. I know that it's deceptively simple. I know how hard it is to actually write a picture book. It's like every word needs to matter and stuff. So when I actually read it, I have to read them aloud, the story. And once I actually read them aloud, there's a bit of almost like a spark of vision almost. When you mention the word styles, I just want the illustration to compliment the words. So to me, it has to be 50/50. The illustration can't actually overpower the words and vice versa. So anything that can balance the words, that I will choose. And the thing that I usually choose is of course the tone. The tone of the illustration needs to fit with the words, whether it's a comedy, whether it's actually quite... (11:12): For example, I'd always need something that's quite soft and quite emotional. Dandy needs to be quite comical, and I just elevate that in a way just to match Amy's strong comedic style of writing stuff. So with Dear Duck, when I actually read the story, it has this naivety, but also quite classic in a way, reminding me a little bit of Winnie the Pooh for example. Even though it's not directly a thing, but it has that kind of feeling in a way. So it needs to be quite classic, but it needs to be quite colorful too because the characters are quite colorful and then the worlds are quite colorful, and it matches the story. That's how I choose it. And in the end of the day, it's almost like an instinct and kind of taste too. Whether my six years old self or five years old self would be excited or not to actually read this book, that's the test. So I just have to keep looking at it from that five years old and then back to my 40 something years old and back to six years old, so that balance in a way. Sarah Mackenzie (12:24): Well, I love that you actually called out Winnie the Pooh, because that was our Kirkus review called it great for fans of A.A. Milne's Winnie the Pooh, which I was like, I mean, if they're going to compare the book to something, we'll take it. Charles Santoso (12:37): Wow. We'll take it. That's totally like a compliment. Sarah Mackenzie (12:42): So when you get a manuscript from your agent to consider to illustrate, do you sort of know right away, oh, do you get those visions, you were talking about sparks, right away or how does that work for you? Charles Santoso (12:54): Well, when there's no sparks, I will just go like, oh, maybe this is not right for me in a way. So I need that kind of sparks in a way. I need to at least have a connection to the story somehow. That's how I decide. I mean, of course, again, I'm grateful to get all this opportunity and stuff, but sometimes I would have to say, maybe this is not right for me, and stuff like that, and some story will just go like, oh yeah, this is great. Sarah Mackenzie (13:24): Yeah. It kind of reminds me of our editor who works with us on a lot of books and in fact edited the text of Dear Duck, Please Come! for us. He will say that a lot of times when he's working on a book... And he also edited the Enola Holmes books and all the books by Ruta Sepetys and the Ranger's Apprentice and stuff, and a bunch of picture books. He will say that a lot of times he'll see it and think, oh, this is going to be a great book, but I don't think I'm the right person to edit it. He can just sort of see that there's a gap, there's just something missing, and he's like somebody else will look at this and go, I have to take this. And that's what he wants all of his projects to be like. Charles Santoso (14:03): There's a difference between, oh, this is a great book, I know it's going to be challenging, but there's other books where you just go like, oh yeah, this is not really for me. So that's the difference. Where Dear Ducks, when it comes to me, I know there's a challenge with this, but I will get sparks. Because it's just a very, very faint one, it's not when I actually put it on the paper or on the screen, then all the stuff needs to be resolved and stuff like that. That's the next thing. Sarah Mackenzie (14:35): Okay, so that's so interesting because I'm looking at the illustrations when I first saw the sketches come in and you brought the world to life on so many different levels, like Duck's home being an egg. We'll put some of these illustrations on the screen for people who are watching this video. And Rabbit's house is a carrot. And then the expressions of all of the characters, which feels like... It always amazes me just how much expression you can get with just a few different lines and shapes for a character. Charles Santoso (15:06): Yeah. Thank you. Sarah Mackenzie (15:07): And the mailboxes, everything is rich. So what is that? When you were reading it, did you kind of see some of those right away or was it when you were sketching them, when you got started on it? Can you talk to me a little bit about that process? Charles Santoso (15:21): Yeah. So basically the base of the story itself, it's really fun. I mean, again, it's really simple, but I'm sure it's very hard and it's really fun. It's just this naivety from a duck that sees this letter and it just goes like... Because in my mind, he's starting to, when I actually start sketching, he just goes like, "I have to solve this as soon as possible. It's like I don't even think about it. I just have to solve because I have to help Rabbit." Anyway, so the characters start to emerge. So with that, the environment start to emerge too, like what kind of place he lives and stuff like that. But the simplicity of the story, again, deceptively simple, makes me, when I sketch it, I just like, oh, actually I just do this as a placeholder, like a circle or something like that. When I actually draw a circle and just go like bing, just go like, wait a minute, it should be an egg. He just going to live in an egg. And then it's just like I just put that in. I just put those ridiculous ideas in. And then of course I send it to you and then see if you're on board with this ridiculous ideas. And of course- Sarah Mackenzie (16:41): Always on board. I don't think I was ever not on board with that. I think I was like, what the heck, this is magic. Charles Santoso (16:47): So I just put some seeds in there, for example. Okay, what's the mail system in there in their world. It's like of course Rabbit, he's not going to run to put them into the mailbox. He's just going to go like, oh, I'm just going to send it through Uber or whatever. And what's that? Oh, there's this pigeon service or bird service, and this thought emerged and it's- Sarah Mackenzie (17:14): I mean, I'll say when I saw that, when I saw the pigeon, I was like, oh, I mean we might be able to just keep on going with stories about this Piney Glen place because I'm pretty sure there are more stories now that I'm seeing because you brought in these other characters. Charles Santoso (17:28): Right. Yeah. It's just fun. And again, I don't want to distract the viewers from the story, but I think when I actually tested to actually read it aloud and again, put myself into this five years old, I can see myself get really interested with this kind of detail and stuff like that. And people can always go back to reread and find new things hopefully. Sarah Mackenzie (17:55): Was there a particular page or spread or part of the story that you found either especially fun or especially challenging or both or either to create? Charles Santoso (18:11): Well, most of the books that I do, the challenge is always in the sketch phase, to actually make the story again as smooth as possible, but also have a bit of a kind of interest. In the middle for example, when they're going to up to the tree and stuff like that, the first sketch was just a normal, in a normal book format. And I thought like, oh, it would be fun if we need to flip the book to actually give that vertical feelings and stuff like that. So those are the challenging part because it might get a bit jarring and stuff when people actually read it, but how to keep the book energy as strong as it can be from the beginning till the end, that's the challenge. But yeah, it's challenging overall, but it's really fun. It was really fun. Sarah Mackenzie (19:07): Well, one of the things I think it's trickier about picture books, whether it's the writing or illustrating, I think, but I don't know the illustrator perspective on this, so I'm so curious to ask you this, I only know the writing perspective, on pacing. Because as a writer, as a picture book writer, I find page turns and pacing to be very important and such an important piece that I have to start thinking about it right away. And then from the illustrator perspective, of course you are doing so much of the pacing in illustrations, whether they're like spots or they're full bleed or they're a complete wordless spread, for example, which is- Charles Santoso (19:40): That's the one, yeah, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (19:42): When I saw this, I just burst out laughing because- Charles Santoso (19:46): Oh, thank you. That's good. Sarah Mackenzie (19:47): There's no way for me to write that pause really into the words, but you did it in the illustrations. And this is the thing I think a lot of people don't realize. Picture book authors and illustrators oftentimes don't even meet. We made this whole book without meeting. But it's not like we're... We actually were tossing back and forth ideas through our art director, and that is pretty unusual too. I think a lot of times we don't even get to do that. But in my writing, I'm trying to pace that. How do I make it slow down when the turtle and then speed up for the squirrel? I did it all through dialogue. That's the only way I could figure out how to do it. And then you added a whole nother element with the illustrations. For one, the turtle speaks slow, which was when I was trying to slow down the pacing. And then you gave it this wordless spread that's just hilarious. Then the very next friend that they rally is the squirrel. And I did it with the dialogue trying to make the squirrel talk fast and a lot. And you, kind of like the jarringness of having to turn the book actually I think also does pacing of whoop, now we're going to, you know. Charles Santoso (20:49): Thankfully again, I think it's kind of a rare thing, I have to say, when I actually receive a text that actually I can feel almost the feeling that you want to get and I can almost hear them talking, starting to, which is great. So thank you for that. So the turtle, I was laughing when I read the manuscript, and he's just go like I think we just need to slow it really, really down. I mean I can, so I just go like, yeah, we just got to do lots of panels, basically just really, really slow it. And thankfully we got the spread for it, like the space for it. So I just go like, oh yeah, just try that and I'm glad that everyone's happy with it. So yeah, it's great. Sarah Mackenzie (21:38): Yeah, I mean it isn't just the fact that it's a wordless spread that makes it slow down, which wordless spreads always make the reader slow down, but I think part of the genius here that some of readers will feel when they're reading it but they won't know it, which is kind of I always like to be like, but look at what's happening here. We'll put it on the screen here so you can see the six different panels. And because Charles didn't just give you one wordless spread, he gave you six wordless spreads in those panels, it takes you six times as long to look at this page. Charles Santoso (22:05): That's right. Sarah Mackenzie (22:06): At this spread, which really slows down and makes you realize this turtle is like Badger's going to have to pick that guy up before we keep moving. Charles Santoso (22:16): That's right. That's right. Sarah Mackenzie (22:17): Speaking of, did you have a favorite character to illustrate in this book? Charles Santoso (22:23): Well, I mean the turtle's just like... I think I drew one of the sketch and I think I was mistaking it for something, I just kind of draw some kind of leaves or something and just close to his mouth or whatever. They just go, oh, maybe he's going to eat it. He's just going to eat it. And then they just go like, oh, maybe he's just a hungry turtle. It's just he just loves to eat. I got distracted. Because Duck is just like his head is just on finding the tooth. And Badger is such a great friend and he's just big and he just try to help, always help, just help. And the turtle is just spacing out. It's just from just try to move, of course really slow, and he just try to eat. And because he got carried away by everyone, so he just slowly... So yeah, this is probably my favorite. Sarah Mackenzie (23:29): I love that personality, how you've drawn out the difference in all the different personalities like, yes, Duck is just so intent. It's so interesting. I came up with the idea for this book because one of my kids said, "Hey, mom, I lost my tooth." And I was feeling in a silly mood and was like, "Oh, no, we better find it." And it just was all of a sudden I was like, that's kind of a funny story. And then I thought, well, I'm sure there's other stories that tell this. So I look and I'm like, I don't think there are. I'm going to try this. And the funny thing is it wasn't until after the book was written and it was in editing and I was working with the editor that I realized, oh, this is a book about how we all think that the best thing we can do for our friends is to fix their problems, but actually the best thing we can do for our friends is to be there when they need us. But it's not like I sat down and went, I'm going to write a book about, well, how the best thing you can do for your friend is not to over-function for them. I didn't write, it wasn't that. I just literally thought like, oh, that's funny, I lost my tooth. That's something that happens in life all the time. Charles Santoso (24:31): It's great. It's great. Again, it's a simple but very deceptively simple story. But I think lots of kids will kind of resonates with it I think too, because sometimes it's kind of like there's a misunderstanding and stuff, but the intention is what's important and that's amazing, I think. Sarah Mackenzie (24:53): Yeah. One of the things you did with this book that I did not think of at all, and then when you started doing it, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so funny, is you hid teeth all throughout this book in the illustrations. Tell me about where this idea came from. Charles Santoso (25:06): Okay. So with the teeth, of course, I think from my memory, I mean I can't claim everything's from me. It's a collaboration, right? I mean- Sarah Mackenzie (25:23): I don't know. I think that one was all you actually, pretty sure. Charles Santoso (25:23): So I think there's a part where it just goes like, oh, the cloud or something, it just looks a bit like a tooth or something like that, and it just sprung from there. It's just suddenly it's like, oh, yeah, you can put lots of tooth. So some readers might see it, some might not, but it's fun it's there. Sarah Mackenzie (25:48): Which is also kind of fun because kind of a Richard Scarry thing when you find Goldbug on all the different pages. Charles Santoso (25:53): Oh, there you go. Sarah Mackenzie (25:54): There was that little bug. Yeah. And then our art director, she was getting such a kick out of all these hidden teeth that she started, like at the copyright page and the back, the way the book is designed. Charles Santoso (26:06): Oh, she's great, Kara is great. Sarah Mackenzie (26:08): Kara is brilliant. Yes, she is. Charles Santoso (26:10): And of course, even in the cover, you just see the cover and stuff. So hopefully people will just go like, oh, wait a minute, that looks a bit like... Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (26:22): Yeah. Am I supposed to see that there? Charles Santoso (26:24): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (26:27): We have a lot of kids who are illustrators and want to keep learning to be better illustrators, and I wonder if you have any advice for them. Charles Santoso (26:38): Right. So I think the thing that I would say, apart from of course keep drawing, keep practicing and stuff, but I think what's most important is live your life, try new things in your life that is actually outside art in a way because that's what's going to make your work more interesting. And that will give you the style which is like yourself. So what you like, your taste, the type of food that you love, and just keep expanding that. The more you know, the more you can put things in your work that actually a little more unique than just a normal things that other illustrators might actually draw too. Just keep asking yourself questions, getting to know yourself. Sarah Mackenzie (27:24): I love that. Experiencing life off of the page and then asking yourself questions. I think that's such good advice because so often I know the advice that we hear and we tell is for writers, young writers, is just write more, write more, write. And you do need to write more, but if you don't actually... I have found that in my life, sometimes I will be like, I don't know why I don't have any ideas. But it's like, well, you are going to have to put down your pencil or your keyboard or whatever you're writing on and go live a little bit so you have something to write about. Charles Santoso (27:55): Right. That's right. That's right. That's so for example, Roald Dahl, he has tons of experience throughout his life. That's how we came up with all this brilliant stuff. And then Barbara Cooney, I know you love Barbara Cooney. Sarah Mackenzie (28:10): Oh gosh, yes. Charles Santoso (28:11): I love Barbara Cooney. Like Miss Rumphius is one of my favorite book. I mean, not because I'm talking to you, but it is truly. When I read it, it's like this is amazing book. In the story, the characters went through different experience before actually, you know. Sarah Mackenzie (28:27): I mean, that was so much Barbara's life. She actually did, she had such a rich, abundant life that probably felt like too much a lot of the time, but ended up spilling over into her art. Charles Santoso (28:37): That's right. That's right. Sarah Mackenzie (28:39): Are there any specific exercises or, I don't know, things that you do maybe if you're stuck? For example, I can give you an example. One, when I am really like I have no story ideas but I really want to just write for a little bit, I will take a first line from any book off my shelf, just the first line, and then I'll just keep going for five or 10 minutes making up the rest of the story, like a brand new story. Charles Santoso (29:02): Right. That's fun, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (29:02): It's like a hack because I don't have to come up with the story. Yeah. Charles Santoso (29:05): That's right. Sarah Mackenzie (29:06): Is there anything like that for drawing? Charles Santoso (29:07): Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Especially for something that comes with a storyline. So for example, if you want to be an illustrator for picture books or, I don't know, graphic novels or whatever, and you don't really have an idea of a story, yes, take a classic story, for example, Little Red Riding Hood or something like that, and just take that and use that as a base when you actually don't have any ideas. And just starting to create the characters and the environments and try with other stories and stuff like that. But just come out with your version of it. I think that is a very good practice in a way, because you don't have to worry too much about the basic story because you kind of know it so you can kind of make it really fun. So for example, Cinderella or whatever, and make it into, I don't know, space if you really love drawing, I don't know, astronaut or whatever. So you can do that and then that actually I think train your creativity too in a way to actually expand a simple story into something of your own in a way. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (30:14): That's so great. Charles Santoso (30:14): And who knows, you might create a new story based on your exercises. Sarah Mackenzie (30:22): Yeah. Well, one of the books we have coming out at Waxwing later in 2025 in the fall is called Flora and the Jazzers. And it is kind of a Cinderella story, but it's a weasel and it's set in 1920s New York. And I didn't write it. It's written and illustrated by Astrid Sheckels. And it's so fun because it's a story you've never read before, but it's a story you've read before. That makes me wonder, is there a classic that you're like, man, I would love to play with that, play with a version of that? Charles Santoso (30:53): A classic. Okay. Alice in Wonderland is always something that every artist can get themselves into and then it's just come up with something unique themselves. So Alice in Wonderland of course, or even classics like The Hobbit. Sarah Mackenzie (31:15): Yeah, okay. Charles Santoso (31:15): It is really fun because it's just I can do a lot of things with it. But for example, Little Prince, I'm not going to touch it. Sarah Mackenzie (31:25): Yeah, okay. Charles Santoso (31:25): Not going to touch it because it's perfect as is, to me, to me. It's just... But for the others, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (31:36): Another example, since we were talking about Tomie dePaola and Strega Nona, another example of a story that's like a version of something I just think the kids might think is interesting. If you have Strega Nona at home, kids, take it off your shelf or go get it from the library and look at it. It will remind you of a folktale because it was actually Tomie rewriting one of his favorite folktales, the Magic Porridge Pot, and he turned it into a pasta pot, put it in Italy. Charles Santoso (32:01): There you go. There you go. Sarah Mackenzie (32:03): Yeah. Charles Santoso (32:03): There you go. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (32:04): So cool. Yeah. Charles Santoso (32:06): Sometimes it just forms into something else that is actually really unique. I used to work in film before, so I studied lots of films and stuff like that. So a lot of people loves, for example, a film from Studio Ghibli, Totoro, whatever. Little that they know is it's actually almost like a retelling of Beauty and Beast or something like that, but they form it into something that's really unique. Sarah Mackenzie (32:34): Okay. To you, what's the best part of being an illustrator? Charles Santoso (32:40): Well, everything. That's what I love. The best, best part is when I, after I finish the hardware and stuff and solve everything and do the drawing and I'm finished and it goes to print, the first time I actually receive the book, I never get tired of it. Because I love picture books. I love it. I mean, you see the back, it's like they're all picture books. I love the object, I love the smell. I love the people that made it, really nice people and then very, very talented. And it's kind of just I think it's underappreciated, picture books, I find, because that's especially the read aloud part of it. Because to me as an illustrator, of course the best part of it is illustrating and stuff. But when it's combined with a text, oh, it's just magic, it's truly magic. I mean, I truly love it. So the best part of it is I'm part of it. To me, yeah, I'm really grateful. Sarah Mackenzie (34:00): I'm feeling this deeply because I'm like I feel this way about picture books too. I feel like it's very immersive and also then when you get lucky enough to be able to be making one, you get to see all the thought and care that goes into each thing, tiny thing. Every part of a picture book is part of the story from the shape of the book to the- Charles Santoso (34:19): [inaudible 00:34:19], yes. And every word, right? I mean, you probably get lots of edits from your editor, whatever. Can you change this one? This one word can be stronger. It's like a poem. It's like a poem. Sarah Mackenzie (34:32): Well, we even changed some of the words after the illustrations were done, which isn't always how publishers work, but I love doing that. Because if the illustrations are doing half the storytelling, then probably the words are doing too much work after it's been illustrated. When I'm writing, I don't have the illustrations in my head or anything. So then once I see the illustrations, I can go like, oh, we don't even need to say that piece because- Charles Santoso (34:55): I love that. Sarah Mackenzie (34:57): Yeah. And so it's also more of a collaborative storytelling than so much other writing because you have your author and your illustrator, sometimes that's the same person, but then you still have your editor, you have your art director, you have all of this creative energy coming in. It reminds me maybe more of, not that I've ever made a film, it reminds me of making a film, which I've never done. It reminds me though of the fact that you need a whole team of creative genius to come in from all the different ways and yeah. Charles Santoso (35:25): That's right. That's right. I mean, I love film too, but picture book is so personal. It's so nice. I can talk forever about it. Different authors, for example, I love Maurice Sendak so much that I actually collected all his interviews and stuff, to the point where so it feels like I listen to him talking. Like Tomie, I listened to his interviews and stuff like that. There's one interview from SCBWI, was it like two hours or something? It's just- Sarah Mackenzie (35:56): Yes, I know which one you're talking about. Charles Santoso (36:01): So delightful. And you get the energy that he loves it. He just loves it. He loves the world. He just loves telling the story. Yeah, it's just the best thing I think. Sarah Mackenzie (36:13): Which is actually, maybe that's a trait. I haven't thought of that exactly before about picture books that I love. Because Tomie did love the world, and then he loved capturing some of that in a book. That's exactly how I would describe Barbara Cooney. That's how her son described her to me, is she loved the world around her and was just trying to capture a sliver of that beauty that she saw in front of her eyes on the page. And it's what I see and I hear in you too and when I look at your art. Charles Santoso (36:41): Thank you. Thank you very much. Literally the best thing about picture books, you can stay on the page for hours if you want to. It's just they can do whatever. And hearing kids laughing at the jokes and stuff, it's the best. Sarah Mackenzie (37:00): Speaking of, all of you listeners and viewers, if you have pictures of your kids enjoying this book of ours, please tag us on Instagram. Charles Santoso (37:07): Oh, please. Sarah Mackenzie (37:09): Yes. I'll put... Is it just Charles Santoso? I'm trying to remember what your handle is on Instagram. I think it's, yeah. Charles Santoso (37:13): Yes, yes. Just full Charles Santoso. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (37:16): Okay, Charles Santoso. And Read Aloud Revival is where I'll see it. If you tag us, we'll be- Charles Santoso (37:21): Oh, that'll be amazing. That's going to make my day. Sarah Mackenzie (37:23): Totally. Charles Santoso (37:24): I love it. I love it. Or if they drew characters from the book too, that'll be... Sarah Mackenzie (37:30): Charles, thanks so much for coming on the show and thanks for making this book with me. It was so fun. It was so much fun. Charles Santoso (37:34): Thank you, Sarah. I mean, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (37:41): Dear Duck, Please Come! is available now wherever you get your books. Here's something fun. I don't remember if we said this in our conversation or not. We actually sold through the entire first print run, that was a lot of copies, it was 10,000 copies, before the book ever hit shelves. So it's been quite popular and I think you'll really love it. You can get it anywhere you buy your books, at a real brick and mortar bookstore or at your favorite online bookstore. And every single purchase of the book comes with a free audiobook that comes either with or without page turn cues, whichever you prefer, and also the video book so that even if you are driving to basketball practice or too busy doing laundry or stirring the soup, your child can still be read aloud to and enjoy the delicious illustrations by Charles Santoso. And please take pictures of your kids reading Dear Duck and tag both Charles Santoso and Read Aloud Revival in your posts so we don't miss them, because you will completely make our day. Now, let's go hear from kids about the books they are loving lately. Holly (38:47): Hi, my name is Holly and I'm five years old. My favorite book is Little House on the Prairie. I like it because there's horses in it. Evelyn (38:58): Hello, my name is Evelyn. I am eight years old and I'm from California. My favorite book is Beezus and Ramona. And my favorite character is Beezus because I'm an older sister as well, and my little sister's named Holly and she's just like Ramona. Hazel (39:20): My name is Hazel. And I'm seven and I live in Idaho. My favorite book is The Mouse and the Motorcycle. I like it because the mouse tries to look for medicine for the boy. Atticus (39:36): My name is Atticus and I'm six and I live an Iowa. And my favorite book is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe because Aslan killed the White Witch. Joshua (39:54): Hi, my name is Joshua. I'm seven years old and I live in Bend, Oregon. And my favorite book is The Indian in the Cupboard series. Why I like it is because it has lots of magic in it. June (40:09): Hi, my name is June. Speaker 9 (40:11): Where are you from? June (40:14): Bend, Oregon. Speaker 9 (40:16): And how old are you? June (40:17): Five years old. Speaker 9 (40:19): And what's your favorite book? June (40:21): Clementine. Speaker 9 (40:22): Why? June (40:23): That's because Clementine is funny. Jack (40:26): Hi, my name is Jack. I am nine years old and I live in Bend, Oregon. My favorite books are The Chronicles of Narnia, and my favorite book in the series is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The reason I liked that book is because it's about good and evil and good always wins. Addy (40:46): My name is Addy. I'm seven years old and I live in California. My favorite book is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. And I like when Aslan breathes on all the creatures to free them from the wicked witch's spell. Watson (41:00): My name is Watson. I live in California. And my favorite book is [inaudible 00:41:10] Belly of the Beast. And my favorite part of the book is when Fen saves them from the belly of the Shibboleth. And my name is Watson and I live in California and I'm five years old. Sarah (41:28): My name's Sarah and we're from Utah. And my favorite book is Fancy Nancy because when there's dancing. Sarah Mackenzie (41:45): Thank you so much, kids. Hey, show notes for this episode are at readaloudrevival.com/258. Our podcasts are now also videos, and so you can go to the YouTube channel at readaloudrevival.com/video and you can subscribe to the YouTube channel so you don't miss a thing. I will be back in two weeks with another episode for you. But in the meantime, you know what to do. Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.