RAR #253: How We Choose Books to Recommend at RAR

Sarah Mackenzie (00:00): I remember walking into the library when Audrey, my oldest daughter was about one and thinking, "Okay, I want to find a read-aloud. I want to find some books to read aloud with her." And I look over this sea of picture books in the children's section, a very big, beautiful children's section, in fact. And I knew some of these books have to be better than others, but how am I going to find them? I mean, I knew sometimes I sat down and read aloud and loved every second. And sometimes when I sat down to read aloud with her, I thought I was going to poke out my eyeballs. (00:36): That set me off on what started as a hobby and became a life, a life of looking for the very best read-alouds and sharing them with you. Today, on the Read-Aloud Revival podcast, we're going to talk about how we choose books for our book lists. (00:56): Welcome to the Read-Aloud Revival podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Mackenzie. Well, there is almost no question that I love more than do you have a book recommendation for... for me, for my husband, for my kids, especially for your kids. I love book recommendations. Giving book recommendations, like most bookish people, I think we all love to talk about the books that we've loved, and I'm really excited to dig into our process here at Read-Aloud Revival. To join me today, I brought Leilani Curtis on the show. Leilani is our premium coordinator at RAR Premium, which means she is largely responsible for those amazing book club guides that we offer our RAR Premium members. Leilani, welcome to this side of the podcast. Leilani Curtis (01:41): Oh, thank you so much. Sarah Mackenzie (01:42): Well, it's so fun to have you on the show because we work together all the time behind the scenes. Do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about you? Leilani Curtis (01:51): Thanks so much, Sarah. It's so fun to be here with you. Yes. My name is Leilani. My husband Nate and I have been married for 13 years and we have six kids. Our oldest is 11 and they're about every two years apart. The baby is one. We've got four girls and two boys. We homeschool. We started homeschooling in 2018 and it was a trial year and I loved it. And of course every year that we keep doing it, I just love it even more. And so I joined RAR back in 2019 and just really grew as I was exposed to all the great books here. So I'm particularly excited to talk about these book lists. Sarah Mackenzie (02:32): Awesome. Well, the whole team really at Read-Aloud revival works on our book lists, which listeners and viewers, if you have not seen our book lists, you want to go check those out. We have book lists for just about everything under the sun, and we're always making new ones and always updating our previous one. Those are at readaloudrevival.com/recommends, or you can just text the word books to the number 33777, and we'll send you straight to those book lists. And like I said, the whole team really works on those. We're going to tell you about that process. (03:04): But Leilani and I work especially closely on the final selections for each book list. So we thought it would be fun to chat about what are we looking for and what are we not looking for? What are we avoiding? All the good stuff on how we make our book lists. I mean, you can Google a book list for anything, apples or September or Thanksgiving or the Civil War. You can Google those and you'll get a lot of book lists that are really, really long and include book that that person could find on a topic. And we build our book list a little differently here at RAR, which I think you'll find out about as we're talking. (03:46): Okay. So really how we start when we're making a book list at Read-Aloud Revival, we usually take a lot of feedback. So members in the forum, people who write in and say, "Hey, do you have a book list for XYZ?" We keep a collection of all of those, and when we see that a lot of people want a book list on a certain topic, we move it up higher on our priority list. And a good example of this is that we are getting a lot of requests for history, book lists that are based on a certain time period of history. And we specifically had quite a few requests for the Middle Ages book lists that were book recommendations for a wide variety of ages based on the Middle Ages. (04:28): So then what happens is we choose whichever book list we're going to make next, and our whole team, which is about eight of us, will start just reading voraciously, trying to get our hands on as many books as we can. But we have a preference around here for shorter book lists. And I think when I was saying earlier, you could google a book list topic and you'll get a huge list of books about the Middle Ages. But we really want the books that are on our list to be almost a guaranteed win. (05:00): There's a very good chance that if you pick up any of these books, they're going to be a win for a read-aloud experience, specifically like a shared reading experience. So that makes our list naturally a bit shorter because we have, I think, kind of a high bar for what we do. You think that's fair, Leilani? Leilani Curtis (05:19): Yeah, I do. I think it can be a little bit exhausting sometimes when you get super lengthy lists and putting them all in at the library. And of course maybe your library has some and not others, but I think it's been really helpful when we can narrow it down to these books are just going to be great choices. Sarah Mackenzie (05:40): One of the things that I think is really important to point out is our book lists are not comprehensive. I don't ever feel like these are all the best books, all the good books on Middle Ages because I see our book lists as more like training wheels. So our goal always at Read-Aloud Revival is to help moms and dads feel like they can find and read great books with their kids and make those meaningful and lasting connections. And so it's not like, oh, I have to check and see if this book is on the Read-Aloud Revival approved list. That's not at all what we're doing. It's more like if you were to read books from our book list over and over again, you're going to get a hang of choosing really great books and seeing good quality language and visuals. We're going to talk all about all that. (06:24): You're going to get so used to that you'll develop a taste. I guess my thought is the book lists themselves are not the be all end all. They're training wheels to help you figure out how to ride on your own. Leilani Curtis (06:35): Yes, that was definitely my experience as well. I felt like the more that I was becoming familiar with some of the authors or the illustrators that were regularly featured on those lists, I could start to recognize them on my own when I walked into a library. And that just felt like such an equipping moment and just helped me to feel like, "Yeah, I can walk into the library and start to choose some of these," and I think that they'll be great. Sarah Mackenzie (07:00): I love that so much because that's pretty much how I back from those early days when Audrey was a baby and I'd walk into the library and go, "I don't know why some of these books are so much better than others, but I've got to figure out what's making them." One of the first things I figured out is learning author and illustrator names goes a long way because that's when you know I can pick up anything by Jan Brett anything by Tomie dePaola, anything by Gary Schmidt, and it's probably going to be a win on some level. We'll talk a little bit about some nuances that we look for. Leilani Curtis (07:34): And I've noticed that for my kids as well, and that was something that I did learn from you a long time ago was to, I would introduce the title of the book and then the author and the illustrator names, and soon my kids would start to, "Oh, is this another Jan Brett? Is this Don Freeman? Oh, he isn't? Isn't he who wrote Corduroy?" And they start making those connections and it just increased their own eagerness to read some of those books that we were bringing home. Sarah Mackenzie (07:59): Yeah. Well, it's fun because before you came on the Read-Aloud Revival team, I remember checking out your Instagram, which is fabulous and full of great book recommendations. We'll make sure we link to your Instagram in the show notes because you've got great book recommendations on there. But I remember looking through all your book recommendations and being like, "Oh yeah, this lady's taste is just like chef's kiss." Leilani Curtis (08:22): Thanks so much. I just so have enjoyed. The more you get exposed to those good books, I feel like the more you can find them. They're out there. Sarah Mackenzie (08:31): Yeah, that's right. Okay. So our process is basically that we pick a topic. Our team starts pretty much voraciously reading and leaving notes and recommendations. So our team will start creating a list. People are putting in this doc that we share, what they recommend, why they recommend it, what ages they might recommend it for. And then before it gets to me, usually you do... Sometimes Audrey would do this before. Audrey is my oldest daughter who was one years old on my hip at the beginning of this episode, and now she's almost 23 and she's a member of our team. You've probably heard from her if you've ever written in to Read-Aloud Revival. You've probably heard back from her. (09:07): You've done a lot of the vetting lately and shortening that list even more from the team's big list before I get brought in. So do you want to talk a little bit about what that feels like to you? Leilani Curtis (09:18): Yeah. Well, I've really enjoyed, like you said, working with the team because I feel like there's just a really rich background. There's a couple of ladies who grew up in just really literary rich homes, Audrey included, and so they have a lot of recommendations that maybe they remember loving in certain seasons of life and others that have a lot of strengths in the publishing world or in a teaching, maybe in a co-op setting. (09:45): And so I think we're all coming from slightly different places and I feel like that helps us just to have a nice broad reach. And so as they're being recommended, we're always leaving comments on why. And I think that just being really purposeful and intentional about what is going on the book list is what helps us to choose what we feel like are going to be the best winners because we can process through, "I love this book. Here's why. Here's why I think it would be such a great read-aloud for families." (10:14): And so as we're vetting them, they're all great books. And so based off of those why's or off those purpose or intention, how can we choose the books that we just feel like will really best serve the families that are coming to RAR for those recommendations? Sarah Mackenzie (10:29): Yeah, exactly. And then you and I meet every week and we oftentimes are talking through those titles one after another just a lot of times we're holding up books and like, "Did you see this yet?" It's a big book buying day for me usually when you and I have a one-on-one. Leilani Curtis (10:46): Yes. Again, I'm just being exposed to more and more great titles as we continue to just take those recs and then work through that vetting list on, "Okay. What is going to best serve our mission?" Sarah Mackenzie (10:59): Yes. And actually one of the things that's interesting is because we have that ethos, I guess for a shorter list, a list that doesn't overwhelm but is there's pretty good odds that no matter what book you pick off that list, there'll be something you like. We are oftentimes trimming our old lists as well, so it's not just like we're always adding to them. Usually when we're updating lists, we're taking a couple off that feel like maybe these aren't quite as solid of recommendations as some of the other ones we're putting on this list now, because we're of course always finding and learning about new books even if they're not new, even if they're old and it's new to us. Leilani Curtis (11:37): Sometimes older books are being republished by new publishers, and that's always really exciting. That's one thing in vetting is sometimes there are amazing books out there, but they might be out of print. And so we do try to be careful about that as well. And so again, it's exciting to see some of those older ones come back. And I think our whole process for the book lists, it's about a month. Is that right, Sarah, from the time? Sarah Mackenzie (12:00): Yeah, I think so. Leilani Curtis (12:01): I was thinking about just how long the whole process actually takes. Sarah Mackenzie (12:05): Speaking of out of print, there are a lot of really wonderful books that are out of print. The Read-Aloud Revival audience now is big enough that if we put a book on a list that's not readily available, it is more bound to frustrate our listeners and viewers and readers than anything because we're making these short-ish lists. I mean, short-ish. If anyone who looks at our Christmas list, it's going to be like short, but there are so many get Christmas lists. Leilani Curtis (12:34): True. Sarah Mackenzie (12:34): It really could be a lot longer. But we have these short lists. Then if a couple of those on there are really difficult to get, then by the time the first Read-Aloud Revivalers get their hands on those used copies, nobody else can or it drives the price of these used books up. So we do sometimes hear, "Why don't you have more old or out of print books on your list?" And the answer is because it will frustrate you and because we will hear from the librarians who come to us and say, "You cannot keep recommending these books that we can't get in our libraries because we're out of print." So this is just a good plea to publishers to be bringing back those out of print books that really should still be in print. Leilani Curtis (13:13): Definitely. Most definitely. Sarah Mackenzie (13:17): Okay. So, Leilani, do you judge a book by its cover? Leilani Curtis (13:21): Oh, very much. I love a beautiful cover. In fact, like many bookish people, I am known to have multiple copies of the same book simply because I liked the cover. And I thought I should have that one as well. Sarah Mackenzie (13:33): Yes, agreed. I remember when we hired our art director at Waxwing, which is our publishing house, one of the things she had in her bio was definitely judges books by their covers. And I was like, "Yes, I think this is important." Especially for kids actually because if you think about a picture book, they're so thin. The spines are so thin. This is why we're always recommending that people put their book's face out because the cover is an invitation that feels like, "Of course we have to judge a book by its cover." (14:03): Not just a cover of course, but there are a few questions that I tend to use. If I'm walking into a bookstore or a library and I'm picking a book off a shelf and I don't recognize the name of the author or illustrator, which are things that you get in the habit of after you've seen enough, you kind of go, "Oh yeah, that's right. This author or illustrator did this other book I loved," which isn't always an automatic endorsement, right? Because every book stands on its own. (14:26): But I will oftentimes look for three things. In my book, The Read-Aloud Family, I called it a three-question test. Three quick questions you could ask in 30 seconds to know at least if it's worth your time to keep looking. One of the things that I'm looking for is I just crack open that book to the middle. I've got the little Christmas Carol right here so I can just crack it open in the middle and start reading just a few sentences to see if it has delicious language, if it has language that doesn't feel like it's talking down to our kids. Is that what you look for to Leilani Curtis (14:58): Yes, definitely. And I think those illustrations inside are, especially when we're talking about picture books specifically, that it's kind of doing the same thing at the cover is that it's engaging me. I want to know what's happening. We've talked about visual storytelling before. Is there some of that going on in those illustrations as well? Sarah Mackenzie (15:16): Yes. Art is one of those things that... I always use a very simple, does it make me want to look longer than necessary? Am I just looking for information and then I'm ready to move on? I want to look at it a little longer. I used to think really good picture book art especially would be like the question is would I hang this on my wall? But I actually don't know if that's always... I mean, that's a good question, but sometimes I think really good picture book art makes me want to look at it longer than necessary, even if I wouldn't necessarily hang that style up on my wall. So then I'm like, "I don't know if that's always true. It can be a helpful indicator." Leilani Curtis (15:53): Yes. It's something about it that draws you to it. Sarah Mackenzie (15:56): Yeah. We're putting these books in our children's laps so they're so close and it's so close to them, they hold them and they're really an opportunity to put a piece of real beauty into their hands. And so I want the illustrations to honor that desire for beauty that children are born with. Leilani Curtis (16:15): Absolutely. And I think the more they're exposed to just really unique and well-done illustrations, the more that that's what they want to see. It's easier for them to recognize those books as well then. Sarah Mackenzie (16:28): Yeah, exactly. I think that goes back to that idea of how we were talking about book lists as trading wheels or the more we get used to hearing the same authors or illustrators names again and again, and we train ourselves to know, "Oh, that's somebody I want to pay attention to." In the same way, the more that our kids see beautiful art and good language. It's like their taste is acquired over time. They get a taste for that. So then over time, they start to have an affinity for really beautiful language. (16:58): And that doesn't always come really young. I mean, I know for a lot of my kids especially, they went through stages where they would pick the dumbest books off the books shelf at the library, and I would think like, "Ah, and it's fine. I would let them read those books." I would choose the books with really delicious language and beautiful illustrations that made me want to look longer than necessary. And over time, their taste develops just like how I didn't like avocados when I was a kid, but I love them now. Leilani Curtis (17:26): Yes. It correlates to a toddler's fashion sense of style. I remember my girls when they were around two or three years old. I'm sure many others can relate to this story, but they're just so confident in what they chose to wear, and it might be the same princess dress for days on end. Just like we've been reading Corduroy for days on end. There is just a confidence in this is what I love. (17:53): So I think there's just something to as kids are really choosing books that maybe I'm like, "Oh, okay, I guess that's fine." They're just learning to grow in confidence as a reader. And like you said, you're helping to guide them by showing them, "Here's some other really great books too, and here's why I think you'll really like them." And I think that helps them to grow their taste as they grow. Sarah Mackenzie (18:14): Yeah. I think that's such a great picture. I'm envisioning my Allison who's now 20... Well, 21 actually now. There's this picture of her when she was three. My mom had sent her a box of birthday clothes from Gymboree and they were all perfectly... There's a pink flora outfit and a purple striped outfit and there were all these separate outfits that were coordinated and beautiful. And she picked one thing from each outfit and came out all the confidence in the world, and it was like, "This is me." Leilani Curtis (18:44): Yes. And we applaud that. That's great. Sarah Mackenzie (18:48): Exactly. So fun. Leilani Curtis (18:51): Just is the language good? Sarah Mackenzie (18:53): Is it good language. Doesn't feel like, "Oh my gosh, it's going to kill me to read this aloud." Are the illustrations making you want to look longer than necessary? And then the third question I am just asking myself, do I want to know what happens? Am I interested in this? Because especially when we're talking about read-alouds, if we're interested that floats over to our kids. They hook onto that enthusiasm of ours. (19:18): So if I'm completely bored and do not care, it is really hard for me to drum up the enthusiasm to act like I do, and definitely my kids can see through it. So that question of just like, "Do I want to know what happens?" Because an important part of storytelling too. Leilani Curtis (19:31): And I think too with some of those older books too, we're just coming into a lot more of the middle grade, and so as we're vetting those books as well for those book lists, those take a lot of just time and discernment just how to discern what are the conversations that might come up in these? And so I still take in just a lot of trusted sources. Okay. My daughter is looking for a series and here are some things I've heard good things on. And we'll talk about how we maybe set up our children to read those or to discuss those with us. (20:04): But I think that's a whole nother thing like you were talking about those first lines. Sarah talks a lot about first lines. Sometimes in middle grade, I'll just read that first page just to see how it sounds, how they're setting the story up, and then just what we've been able to read other people's reviews. Sarah Mackenzie (20:21): The first page is such a great... I mean it seems so obvious, but the best writing is usually on the first page. Usually a writer's ability doesn't exceed what they can pull off on the first page because most writers spend an enormous amount of time getting their opening lines right. So if you read the first few lines and you think, ugh. I mean, it's not always an indication that the book is just worth pitching, but if the first lines grab you, that's something to pay attention to. Leilani Curtis (20:49): Sure. Sarah Mackenzie (20:50): There's another thing, and this is trickier because you can't vet for this in a bookstore or a library when you're just pulling off a book and you're just flipping through. Those three questions are oftentimes what I'll use just to decide is a book worth me taking a closer look at? But when I'm reading the whole book to think about putting it on one of our book lists, I'm looking for hope. I want the book to leave the reader with hope. And Kate DiCamillo often says that she feels duty bound to leave a reader with hope. (21:17): Now, Kate DiCamillo's books are very sad. They're usually sadder than my taste, but she does always lead the reader with hope, and I love that she's so committed to that. In one of her essays on writing for children, this is in her collection of essays called The Sense of Wonder. I almost forgot it there for a second. Katherine Patterson has this beautiful quote. She says, "Art is a means of seeing truth that cannot be observed directly." (21:47): Art is a means of seeing truth that cannot be observed directly. And one of the truest things is that we are a people of hope. And so it's really important to me that all the books on our list tell kids the truth, which is that we are a people of hope, even when horrible things happen, even in dark times, even during war and poverty and sickness and all of these horrors of life, there is hope. That's the truth. And so I am generally looking when we're looking for books to put on our lists, we're not just doing the three-question tests, we're reading that whole book and we are vetting for hope because we want to make sure we're telling our kids the truth even though we can't necessarily tell it to them directly, which kind of leads us into what we wanted to talk about next, I think. (22:35): We're also looking for a few things that we avoid. There are some things that will kind of keep a book from making it onto one of our book lists, and one of those just to start out with the hope thing we're just talking about is if a book... For some reason, our culture is obsessed with making teens read hopeless books that have no hope and that basically leave you with a sense of despair, which just feels to me like a tragic thing to do, especially to a teen. So a book that has no sense of that hope at the end. That will not make it onto one of our book lists, that's an easy pass for me. Leilani Curtis (23:15): Yeah. I think we tend to avoid books that seem to have a sense of telling a child what to think rather than inviting them into a discussion. Sarah Mackenzie (23:25): Oh yeah, that's so good. Leilani Curtis (23:26): That could be any thought. Just any thought. And what you said earlier about not speaking down to a child, telling a child what to think in the book could be just condescending. And so what we are really hoping with the books is that they're opening conversations. And that's a huge part of just the family book club experience and culture building is learning how to talk about books in just a really natural organic way. It's nothing didactic or stressful, just talking about it. And so those are the books that we want to see and to bring on. Sarah Mackenzie (24:02): A book that we've all seen them, books that exist to teach children to think a certain way, where the author's very clear goal is to have the child agree with them. That to me feels like... Well, it feels like propaganda. Regardless of where it is on the spectrum. I might even agree with the way that the position of the author is coming from, but I just feel like that invitation into like, "Let's read about some ideas," and some of them we're going to agree with and some of them we might not, but let's talk about it. Let's read about it. (24:36): Children are born images of God, so let's respect them for the born persons that they are and have this conversation about ideas. That kind of goes back to that Katherine Patterson quote where she said, "Art is a means of seeing truth that cannot be observed directly." So when a book is trying to have our kids look at something directly, this is what a virtue is like. This is what kindness looks like or this is what faith looks like. Or if they're looking at it directly, I feel like we've asked a book to do something it's not meant to do. A book is an invitation into a discussion more than it's a way to make sure our children get on exactly the same wavelength as us. Leilani Curtis (25:21): Because we want to leave room for them to have questions. And so I think sometimes the way that some books can portray it, there's not really room for having a question. I think that's probably one of the most important pieces that they feel free to ask those. Sarah Mackenzie (25:34): Yeah. I love that. I tend not to be a huge fan of what are called concept books, and those are books that are about an idea rather than telling a narrative story. So what is kindness? Just as an example, what is courage? I have just never thought... I've read with so many kids, my own six kids, but then lots and lots of other kids in co-op settings and preschool settings and library settings, and I just don't think these are the books that kids are drawn to. I don't think they're ever like, "Yes, I would like to be a more courageous human, so I'm going to read this book on what courage is or how to be more courageous." (26:13): I don't think it's what books are for. I think kids, they know it. They want to be told a story. Tell me The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and that will make me know what courage is. Leilani Curtis (26:22): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (26:24): For our lists, one of the things we're always looking at is the read-aloud ability, which I don't think is a word but I really feel like it should be. Leilani Curtis (26:33): Let's coin it. Sarah Mackenzie (26:34): Let's do it. If a book is fun to read aloud makes you want to read it aloud, it's going to [inaudible 00:26:41]. And again, that goes back to that delicious language not talking down. Again, you were just saying not condescending to the child reader. Leilani Curtis (26:47): Yeah. I think that for sure we want books to be fun for the parent to read aloud as well. And you had mentioned earlier our children can really sense our enjoyment of a book. And so if it's a book that I like to read... I will say we've been reading Corduroy for, I can't even count at this point how many nights on end, but I still love to read it. It's fun to read and I think that's just a sign of a good book. Sarah Mackenzie (27:13): Alongside that idea of the read-aloud ability, a lot of times we're reading aloud with a wide range of ages, so we've got a four-year-old and a 14-year-old in the same room. So on our list you're going to find fewer books that are real. There are a few book lists that we have that are for teens. These books are really good for teens. In general, we're looking for books that have a really wide age range appeal, which means that there are certain content subjects, social issues, subjects, things like that we just sort of avoid because we're looking for that big span, that big age range read-aloud ability. (27:49): There are a few things that come up regularly. If a book has the Lord's name in vain in it, I'm likely to put a note in all of our book lists. And viewers and listeners, you should know this, that when you're looking at a book recommendation at Read-Aloud Revival on our website, usually there's a little from Sarah Notes, and if there's something like the Lord's name in vain, I'm likely... I know I miss some, so I don't want to say I'm guaranteed to do this because they're not all perfect, but I'm likely to mention that kind of thing. Just a heads up to know that... Or if it's a book that has appeal for older kids but maybe isn't really suitable for younger ones because of the nature of whatever is happening in this story, I have this tendency to age up. (28:33): So a publisher might say, "This just happened with the book I read the other day. It said eight to 12." And I'm like, I mean, I think this book is absolutely perfect for 12 and up, but I wouldn't give it to a kid that was nine. Not necessarily in this case. It wasn't necessarily because of content, it was just because the ideas presented in the story would be better understood by a teen than... But anyway, so in those from Sarah's, I'll try to note if there's the Lord's name in vain, if there's an issue that's like, "Hey, heads up. There is this particular issue in this book." So that way you can be ready as a parent to discuss it. Leilani Curtis (29:08): Yes. I think that sometimes is so helpful because can be a little bit hard on the fly when you're like, "Oh, we're going to talk about this now." So it's really helpful to know, "Okay, I'm prepared, or maybe I can pre-read that section," if I see that maybe that's something that might warrant that. Sarah Mackenzie (29:23): Yeah. I mean I mentioned Gary Schmidt at the very beginning of the episode that when I see a book by him, I'm definitely going to read it. He's one of my very favorite living authors. I think he is one of the best middle grade and YA authors alive today. I will say almost always, I have some from Sarah Notes on there because his books are real. They're about real hard things and so I just like to point out, "Hey, this book has this issue or addresses that issue. This happens in the story heads up that you either want to be ready to have this conversation or just know that your child's reading a book about this particular topic might be helpful to you." (30:02): It's not really a matter of what do you do if your kid runs into surprising content when they're reading, but when. If you have readers, it will happen where they read something and you're like, "Oh, I wouldn't have said they were ready for that yet. I wish they hadn't." And in that case, I usually like to think of the book as a gateway into a conversation. I don't always want to have those hard conversations about hard topics or messy topics, but a book is a pretty safe way to do it actually, rather than having to discuss it in the context of it happening to somebody in real life. We can- Leilani Curtis (30:42): Absolutely. We had an issue come up where my daughter hadn't read a book, but she was very interested in reading one and I had just heard some concerns and confirmed that in the book. And so when I shared with her that we were going to hold off on reading that, I was able to bring up why. And it was not a topic we had talked about before, but just the way our conversation was going, it felt like a good time to just describe to her what that issue was. And I think it was just really helpful for her to know that we can have this conversation. (31:14): This is part of you growing as a reader, and I think when they can know that this is why we're going to choose these books maybe and not those books, that's really empowering for them as they're growing. Sarah Mackenzie (31:25): It's really how we raise discerning readers then how they can ask the questions. Because when they leave our home, they're not going to be like, "Hey mom, should I read this?" Everything they read. They need to develop the ability to go, "Is this something that I want to be reading? Is this something I want to be filling my mind with? Is this something that is going to help me think about something from a different perspective?" Or maybe I should read it alongside somebody else who's also reading. Although those things are questions that really discerning readers think through. Leilani Curtis (31:55): And I think, like you said earlier, that books create such a safe place for us to talk about those hard things and to help them grow in discernment. Because I was realizing after that conversation with my daughter, there was no rush. A book doesn't rush you. You can just pause. You can put your finger right there and say, "Let's talk about that and we can take all the time in the world that you need." As opposed to maybe if she had encountered that topic amongst a group of peers, there's so much pressure in that moment to know how to respond to, "Oh, I wish I hadn't said that. Oh, I didn't really understand what everyone was talking about." (32:31): Again, this was not even a book we chose to read, but I'm thinking about other books where we have had to just maybe put our finger on the spot and say, "Let's talk about this, what questions you have about this." I just was so impressed with that moment of this is really a powerful opportunity to help prepare them for when they encounter that outside of books because that also will happen. Sarah Mackenzie (32:52): It's true. It's such good practice and it's such a good opportunity to open up those conversations with our kids, which is what we really want to be doing is having the conversations, even when it feels like sometimes I'm like, "Definitely wish we were not having this conversation." Leilani Curtis (33:05): Yes. And I think if that feels overwhelming, I remember being kind of... I don't know. It felt really unnatural to be honest in the very beginning. The very, very beginning of talking about books with my kids, I was just like, "Ah, what do we talk about?" And I'm just so glad. When I look back in 2018, 2019 when I was just starting to build these muscles in my own parenting skill set of like, "Okay, we write a book together, how do we talk about this?" (33:32): The fruit that I can see now is that it's so natural to do it. And wherever you're starting in that process, if you're not regularly talking about what you're reading, it might feel really unnatural at first. And I think that is okay. And the more you do it, the more it will be natural and the more it will feel like this safe space to share those thoughts and talk about those things together. Sarah Mackenzie (33:55): Yeah, I love that so much. One of the things that I really love about books is they require us to walk a mile in the shoes of someone else. And sometimes that brings up issues that we hadn't talked about yet, like you said. But I love exactly how you said you can put your finger on it and say, "What questions do you have about this?" And when this becomes more natural and it becomes more of a habit, like you said, it might feel kind of weird at first, but then after a while, especially when your kids start to realize, "Oh, mom is not looking for... She's not quizzing me on whether I was listening, she actually wants to know what I'm thinking right now," it just changes the game. (34:35): And I think the chance to walk a mile in the shoes of hundreds, thousands of characters over our children's lifetime or childhood I should say, and then on to their rest of their life, it's a special gift that can help them be more empathetic and compassionate, but also it can be a gift to us as parents to open up these gateways to conversations that might otherwise just be really super difficult. Leilani Curtis (35:01): Or maybe they wouldn't even happen sometimes, I wonder when certain topics that a book will just very neutrally bring up. I'm just so glad that gives us that reason to talk about it. And you had talked earlier too about when our kids maybe stumble into something that we are maybe hoping that they didn't have to read yet. I think I was just thinking for myself, even as an adult reader, there are times that I still need to practice that discernment in certain books like, "I don't think this is a good book for me right now." And learning to put that away. Even if it's just for a season. (35:35): There was an interview you had with Alan Jacobs and in a book that he wrote that he talked about sometimes there's a book for a certain season of life. I remember a book he talked about, he tried to read four times and the fourth time was the charm and it was one of his favorites. That has just stuck with me for so long because it has given so much more freedom to not finishing a book in a season. (35:55): I've really tried recently, especially as my girls are going into middle grade and I'm not always able to pre-read what they're reading. They have very different tastes and they have very different sensitivities. And so my oldest daughter may read something and her sister of course wants to also read it. And so we've just had a lot of great conversations about, "You can read it, but if you run into anything that you are unclear about, you might just be misunderstanding something. Bring that to me. Let's clarify that." (36:24): And if you ever feel like, "You know what, mom, I don't think this is a good book for me right now," great. Let's put it away and try it again in a few years. There's nothing that says you have to read it now or never. So I think that's hopefully been a good skill for them. It's certainly one that I've been trying to grow in as well. Sarah Mackenzie (36:38): I love World War II historical fiction, but I definitely have had more than one occasion where I've started reading one and been like, "You know what? I need something without bombs in it right now. I need something that is not in the underground of London during the Blitz because I can't bear it right now for a minute longer." As you were talking about whether our kids are ready for a book or not, it reminded me of something. It's a story from the Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom. (37:09): Speaking of World War II and the Dutch Resistance, she tells this story about how she asked her father a question. He's a Dutch watchmaker and she was a child and she asked him a question about something that was going on with the world, and I can't remember exactly what the question was offhand, but he looked at her and instead of answering her, asked her to go pick up this suitcase that was full of really heavy watch parts. And she went over and she couldn't lift it, and he told her, "It would be a poor father who asked you to lift something you weren't ready to carry. And in the same way I would be a poor father if I asked you to..." Emotionally, he didn't say it this way but, "lift something you weren't ready to carry. "A. (37:51): Nd that's the way I think we can sometimes have that conversation with our kids, "This book, you're not ready for this one yet because it's a little bit of a heavier lift and we're going to wait until you're a little older before it's time." I think that's a really beautiful imagery. Leilani Curtis (38:10): I love that story. I think it's really helpful that we can approach books then with our kids from less of this defensive position of being fearful and more of a proactive place about we want to find the better yeses for you in this season for what's appropriate to be reading together right now as opposed to, yeah, better yeses rather than simply more nos. Sarah Mackenzie (38:33): Yes. I love that. And I mentioned earlier that I tend to age things up. In general, for Read-Aloud Revivalists and for my own kids, for my own family's reading, I tend to a better late than early approach. I think you can never be too old for a book. You are never too old to get something from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, but you could be too young. A two-year-old is probably too young to enjoy The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and to really get much from it except for a really good language in through their ear. (39:03): But this better late than early idea when it comes to books, I feel like you can oftentimes look at a publisher's recommendations and then just add a few years. I think oftentimes that is solid. Not always, because even some books that they say for eight to 12s or teens or something, I would not include on any list. So I'm not saying any publisher recommendation obviously, but I think in general aging up and understanding that they're going to have more ability to carry a heavier suitcase the older they get because they're collecting skills and growing their muscles of discernment and slowly, hopefully slowly getting familiar with some of the harder things of the world. Leilani Curtis (39:49): Some things are so nuanced, and so sometimes I think it just takes time to understand. A lot of times my girls have just maybe misunderstood something and they're always like, "Oh, okay, that makes so much more sense when you explain it." And it just takes time to grow that, and it's different for every kid of course. Sarah Mackenzie (40:05): Yes. So there is a fairly famous essay written by Rudine Sims Bishop called Windows, Mirrors, and Sliding Glass Doors. And I know you love this idea too, of books as windows and mirrors. Do you want to talk about that at all? Leilani Curtis (40:20): Oh yeah. Just this idea that there are some books that can operate as windows, they give us pictures into other... You talked about walking a mile in someone else's shoes, so maybe into another's experience whether that be cross-culturally or historically. There are lots of historical periods that books are the only way that we'll get to peek through window at what that was like. And I think that it does so much for nurturing the empathy and compassion that you were talking about earlier. And then there are those mirror books that I think are also so important. (40:55): For me, it's because they help to give words for our personal experiences. I love when an author writes something and I say, "Oh, that's how I would describe that." That's how I want to say that. I never knew how to say that just that way and that was perfect. And so I think mirror books can be really powerful for helping us to see ourselves in the story. But then, yeah, just giving us those words for those personal experiences. Sarah Mackenzie (41:22): And then I think the sliding door, if I remember correctly, is this idea of walking into a fantasy world like a very immersive world. Think Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Narnia. You might have a bit of a mirror experience if you see yourself in some of the characters or a window experience if you don't. But then the sliding glass door idea being a completely immersive experience where you feel like you're... I don't know if any of our viewers have had, or listeners have had this experience of closing a book and being like, "Wait, where am I again?" That's the best feeling. I love that feeling. (41:58): I want to go back, revisit this idea of preaching, this teaching, this messaging books, because I think it's really pervasive in children's books and I think it's pervasive from all points of view. So again, thinking about a story, if we're respecting a child as a reader, as an image of God who actually can have ideas and can hold ideas that are wrong or that we disagree with at the same time and weigh things and walk a mile in someone else's shoes, just honoring the complexity of the full human experience. (42:36): We get a lot of requests at Read-Aloud Revival, "Can you make a book list based on fill in the blank with a character trait or a virtue? Books that will help my child who is lying a lot, be more honest, for example." And we always say, "No, we cannot." And the reason we cannot is because not what stories are for. I just imagine if your friend or your mother-in-law or your husband or someone hands you a book and says, "I think you should read this, because it will make you a better person." It's like being handed a bludgeon. It's not being handed a gift or an invitation. (43:11): I have never picked up a book because I'm like, "I need this in order to grow in this particular virtue." I don't think that's why our kids read. I actually don't think that's what stories are for. Again, going back to that Katherine Patterson book that stories help us tell the truth, but indirectly in a way that we can see it better because we're walking in Narnia under the lamppost, watching the Fawn and Lucy have this conversation. That's when we can see the truth. So much better than a book that says what something didactically or something outright. (43:42): Exactly like if you were to sit down and tell your kids like, "We are going to learn all about what it means to be honest," versus reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader and you're reading that scene where Eustace is scratching off his scales of his dragon skin. There's a whole different experience that happens in the mind of the reader, whether that reader is six or 16, or 46. When Eustace is peeling off that dragon skin., It meets them on a whole different level than any book that's like, "You need to get rid of your sin and become a better person." It just meets you on a more deep place, I think honors who we are as images of God. Leilani Curtis (44:24): And I think it really brings home what it looks like to actually walk that out in a story. So when we're thinking about something like forgiveness, and I know we're talking a lot about Narnia because why not? It's so great, but when we see Edmund's choices and how that has impacted... We've been walking with his siblings. We've been with them when they discover the betrayal or when he's hurt Lucy, and then the moment of forgiveness comes and it's not just Peter should forgive Edmund. Lucy and Susan should forgive. It's when they give that forgiveness, that really means something, even walking with them. (45:06): And then to recognize also from Edmund, like you were saying, the complexity of the human experience. Have I not also been Edmund? Have I not also been that person at times? And to receive that forgiveness. One of my favorite lines in all of Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is when the lion and the witch are talking and Edmund's eyes are only on Aslan. And just I think there's something to experiencing that, like you said through the story because we've been walking it out. Sarah Mackenzie (45:36): And it stays with you then. That imagery stays with you so much more than a lecture on keep your eyes focused on Christ, but keeping your eyes on watching Edmund, just keeping his eyes on Aslan and seeing what's happening for the first time, and understanding that the wages of sin or death, and this is what it looks like right here on the stone table. That's so different than a story that sets out with a particular message in mind. Leilani Curtis (46:00): I think there's other books that... Even Little Pilgrims Progress that name these virtues or these vices, but even then they're told with story, we're meeting these characters and we're seeing how those virtues or vices play out within the story. So even with a book like that, I think that it's the story that delivers. Sarah Mackenzie (46:23): Yeah, I think something I've heard you say before too that I love the way you've put this, Leilani, is that we're not reading the story necessarily like a fiction story for scripture, but we're reading through the lens of scripture. Can you talk about that a little bit? Leilani Curtis (46:37): Yeah. I think as we're encountering stories or some of that complexity of humanity, I love that phrase that you used, we can bring that back to scripture and say, "What do you think that the Lord has to say about this in his word? What verse does this maybe make you think of that would help us to understand or know how to respond or what would please the Lord for us to respond in this kind of situation if we were in so-and-so's shoes? I think it helps them to learn... If they can learn to apply scripture in these stories again where there's this pause button, this safe space to talk about that, that will help them in those real life situations when those come up to be like, "Okay, I've thought about this before. We've talked about this before." And it's not going to be perfect, but I just think it's such a wonderful opportunity that stories can give us. (47:30): What would you say to a listener who finds that they disagree with a book that is on one of our lists? Sarah Mackenzie (47:36): Horrors, really? No, I'm just kidding. It happens all the time. Taste is subjective, right? It's why some of us... Apparently, I hear like Brussels sprouts and others of us do not. Books are the same way in that we all have our own reading taste. I think that's something that's important to keep in mind as we're reading with our kids too, is sometimes we take it personally when our children don't love the books that we love, but they are going to teach us about something that they love in books that we didn't see before. (48:08): There's this wide range of things to love about the reading life, and that's one of them. So taste is subjective, so you're not going to love all the books that I love. I also think, and this is something I feel very strongly about, my husband and I, we have the grace to raise our six children, but I don't have... I've not been given the grace to raise yours. And so I can say these are books that I think are very likely to be a win. Our team has read these. Leilani and I have vetted them. We've been reading them. Somebody on our team has read them all the way through before they've gotten to the final list, and we think they hit all the beats that we've been talking about in this episode. (48:46): The good language and the illustrations that make you want to look longer than necessary, and the read-aloud ability and the wanting to read more and the leaving you with hope, all of those things. But you have been given your instincts for your own family. So if you are like, "I just don't... This book is just not..." Trust that, that's good... God gave you your own gut. And so I don't want anyone to feel like they should supplant their preferences, their tastes, their gut feeling about a book or a series or something and be like, "Well, on the Read-Aloud Revival list, they said it's not on there. So that means that it's not a good pick. Or it is on there, which means it is." We all have different tastes. I feel like go with your gut and you're given all the grace you need to lead your family. Leilani Curtis (49:32): As we're reading books and as you're evaluating our booklets, of course you have your own children in mind, and that could be a varying degree of maybe sensitivities. There's a lot of times where it's like, my child just cannot do with any animal that dies right now in the season. And that's something that maybe they grow out of, maybe they don't. But you are tracking that because you know and you love that child. And so again, as we kind of mentioned at the beginning of the episode, we hope that these booklets kind of help develop a taste that if you're trusting us to vet these books for you, that you know, "Okay, I can at least start here," knowing that I'm keeping my child or children in mind and what might work for them or what might not. (50:13): Just prayerfully consider them and it's okay not to read what everyone else is reading sometimes too. Everyone loves this book. I don't know. It didn't work for us. Yeah, that's great. Sarah Mackenzie (50:22): Yep, exactly. And maybe it'll work in another season of life or maybe it just doesn't. Leilani Curtis (50:26): That's right. Sarah Mackenzie (50:27): Maybe it's not your thing. Leilani Curtis (50:29): That's okay. Sarah Mackenzie (50:34): What would you recommend for anyone who's listening or watching and says, "I want to grow in learning to see good books. I want to be able to go into a library or bookstore and feel more confident in finding good books." Do you have any tips for them? Leilani Curtis (50:52): Yeah, I think just from my personal experience, again, we've mentioned just taking note if there are certain authors and illustrators that just always seem to resonate with your family repeating those names. "Leilani, I got this new book from so-and-so. What is it that you love about those books?" Sometimes just taking a minute to intentionally think through that is helpful. And again, the more that you look for these excellent books, the easier it will be to find them. (51:21): I think, in fact, it might even be easier to say, "It'll be easier to spot the ones that you don't want to read." You're like, "Oh, I don't know. I'm just not as interested in that one." But there's something that really draws me to this, and the more you do it, the easier it will be. Something else that I just had to be okay with was that it's okay to make mistakes sometimes and it's usually recoverable, and that's where those conversations, at least for me and my kids have gone so far to be like, "Oh, I didn't really love that. Or What is it that you didn't love about that?" Again, it's just more opportunity for conversation, which that in itself is a win. Sarah Mackenzie (51:54): Yeah. Leilani Curtis (51:55): Yeah, I think those things have all been really helpful for me. Sarah Mackenzie (51:58): I think that grace to be okay with sometimes making mistakes is so important. This just happened. I mean, I've been giving book recommendation for over a decade. I've spent the last 20 years really paying attention to books, what makes a good book, stand out and still, I handed my kids a graphic novel about a week ago, and both my twins read it and then left it on my bedside table to read. And I started reading it last night and I was very much enjoying it and then stumbled upon a part where I was like, "Oh, I didn't know this was in here. We definitely have not had this conversation." (52:36): And I was really hoping not to do this yet, but okay, let's do it. And again, okay, this isn't a judgment call on my parenting or my book-giving ability. It's like, "Well, this is going... We're going to use this as a gateway to have a conversation." Or sometimes your kids are going to... For years and years, this is true with all my kids where they brought home books in the library where I thought, "How, with all the good books I read to you, are you so wanting to read this series?" And it's okay. It's like, again, it develops over time and I think just that respecting our children by giving them really good stories, it's a gift that it's like the fruit doesn't pay off immediately, but it comes over time. And the fruit too in your own ability to choose books that you feel like for the most part, we're choosing books that are pretty good. That's also going to come in time. It's not going to be instant, so that's okay. (53:27): Well, in that same collection of essays I mentioned before, a sense of wonder. Katherine Patterson points out that stories are signposts for the truth. So just like how a sign that says San Diego, that sign isn't San Diego, right? It's just a signpost pointing you to San Diego. A story can also be a signpost for the truth. It can be completely fictional and made up like The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, since we keep mentioning that one. And it is not the truth, but it is a signpost for the truth. This is what Katherine Patterson writes. "Fiction is not the gospel, but it can be a voice crying in the wilderness. And for the writer and the reader who know grace, it will not be a cry of despair, but a cry of hope, a voice crying in our wilderness prepare the way of the Lord." (54:28): We hope that our book list at Read-Aloud Revival and our books of the week and all the book recommendations we have for you will help your family find stories that are that voice crying in the wilderness for your home, books that will help you love rich language and really have that delicious experience of good language and illustrations that make you want to look a little longer than necessary, that show you beauty. Books that make you want to find out what happens, and books that help you have conversations with your kids, broaden their imagination and really enrich your family life. And of course, books that leave you with hope because the truth is that we are a people of hope. Leilani, thank you so much for joining me on the show. This has been an absolute treat. Leilani Curtis (55:12): It's been my delight. Thanks for having me. Sarah Mackenzie (55:17): Well, let's go hear from the kids about the books they're loving lately. Speaker 4 (55:27): Hello, my name is Luke. I'm from Florida. I recommend The Vanderbeekers because it's so good. Bye. Speaker 5 (55:37): Hello, my name is Julia. I live in Florida and one of my favorite books is From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler. One of the reasons I like the book is because a brother and sister hide away in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City and they go on all sorts of adventures there. Thank you. Speaker 6 (56:00): Hello, my name is Emily. I live in South Florida and my favorite book of all time is The Blue Castle by LM Montgomery. One of the things that makes this my favorite book is getting to see the character growth of Valancy as she moves from her drab and colorless life to getting her happily ever after and her finally finding her blue castle. Thank you. Speaker 3 (56:28): [foreign language 00:56:31] Speaker 11 (56:28): [foreign language 00:56:36] Speaker 3 (56:28): [foreign language 00:56:40] Speaker 11 (56:28): [foreign language 00:56:44] Speaker 3 (56:28): [foreign language 00:56:46] Speaker 12 (56:46): My name is Tessa and I'm from Wisconsin. My favorite book is James Herriot Treasury of Children. What I like about it is I learn about animals. Speaker 7 (57:01): My name is Julia. I'm from Kieler, Wisconsin, and my favorite book is Absolutely Truly by Heather Vogel Frederick. And what I like about it is that she tries to find out things that are happening around this itty-bitty town called Pumpkin Falls. Speaker 8 (57:20): My name is Ben and I'm from Wisconsin. My favorite book is Redwall. The best part is when the cat and the owl are waiting at the entrance eating the rats. Speaker 9 (57:40): My name is Liza. I like Mercy Watson. Sarah Mackenzie (57:50): What's the best part? Speaker 9 (57:50): When the dogs come here to the truck. Sarah Mackenzie (57:59): Thank you so much, kids. Hey, show notes for this episode are at readaloudrevival.com/253. We'll put the books that we mentioned, a link to the collection of essays that I kept quoting from Katherine Patterson, Leilani's amazing Instagram, and all the good stuff in the show notes, readaloudrevival.com/253. Remember, you can text books to the number, 33777 and will just send you straight to our book lists. I'll be back in another couple of weeks. In the meantime, you know what to do. Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.