RAR #251: Fostering Wonder and Creativity, with S.D. Smith and Carolyn Leiloglou

Sarah Mackenzie (00:00:05): Welcome to the Read-Aloud Revival. This is the show that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. I'm your host, Sarah Mackenzie. Today, I've invited two of my creative favorites onto the show, and we're going to talk all about our creative lives as adults and also raising creative kids, the tension between those things, how stories shape our kids to be more creative, all kinds of good stuff. We really get into it, and I even read a favorite essay of mine by Katherine Paterson during this conversation, and then Carolyn and S.D. Smith respond to it. Now, you probably know S.D. Smith. I call him Sam in this episode. He is a friend of mine, of course. He is the author of the very popular Green Ember series, which has sold over a million copies, I think, wildly successful, probably Read-Aloud Revival's top most recommended book in our Let the Kids Speak series. Kids are always calling in and saying how much they love The Green Ember. (00:01:08): Sam is here today and he's talking about his own creative process and raising creative kids, because he's a father of four. He and his wife, Gina, homeschooled their four kids in West Virginia. Also, here today is Carolyn Leiloglou, who's also a great friend of mine. And she has a couple picture books out, but this new middle grade series I don't want you to miss called The Restorationists. And the first one is Beneath the Swirling Sky. And the second one, Between Flowers and Bones, has just come out. And she's also going to talk about her own creative life as a mother of four, a homeschooling mother of four, in fact, and raising creative kids. And so it's a great conversation. I hope you love it. Here we go. (00:01:55): Let's start by telling our listeners and viewers a little bit about our creative work, since that's what we're talking about today, and a little bit about our kids, because we specifically want to talk about how our creative work impacts our kids. I'll go first. I do a wide variety of creative work here at Read-Aloud Revival right here on the show, also for our online program, RAR Premium. As a writer, I primarily write nonfiction for adults, usually homeschool moms, they're my favorite, and also picture books for kids, fiction and nonfiction. I have tried my hand at middle grade novels. So far, they all are remarkably terrible, so we'll see if I can achieve that at some point. It's still a pipe dream for me at the moment. About my kids, my husband and I have six kids ranging in age from 22, our oldest is 22, all the way down to our 11-year-old twins. And they're really creative. (00:02:55): My oldest daughter graduated with a degree in English last year from Franciscan University, and she's off to grad school in Scotland, just left, when this airs, not too long ago. She's going to pursue a master's in theology and the arts. Our second daughter is studying at Savannah College of Art and Design. She's studying sequential arts, I always forget what it's called, and illustration. All my kids are super bookish. I always think, "I know some families are really into sports, some families are really into music, some families are really into all different things." We do those things. We do some sports, we do some music. But the thing I really feel in my family is we are really bookish, we're just really into stories, everybody's always into stories. Carolyn, do you want to tell us a little bit about your creative work and your kids? Carolyn Leiloglou (00:03:44): Yeah. I'm Carolyn Leiloglou. I'm from Texas, and I write books to inspire wonder in creative kids. I've currently been working on a middle grade series about the power of art. My husband and I have four kids. My oldest we literally just dropped off at college. She's pursuing a degree in screenwriting, is interested in all things film and storytelling. My second is a senior this year, and he is interested in pursuing music composition. And then I have a freshman in high school who is just amazing at all things crafty, she crochets, she knits, she sews, all the things. And then my youngest is, same as your youngest two, Sarah, 11. And she loves to draw, loves to collage, loves to write and read. So, yeah, we are, again, not one of those sports families, primarily books and music for us. Sarah Mackenzie (00:04:46): Awesome. And I have to say, one of my twins was describing Beneath the Swirling Sky the other day to a friend and said... I kid you not, I was like, "I cannot wait to tell this to Carolyn." He was like, "Yeah, we all like Harry Potter, but this is next level." Carolyn Leiloglou (00:05:05): Oh, my goodness. Sarah Mackenzie (00:05:05): So, I mean... Carolyn Leiloglou (00:05:06): I'm so honored. Sarah Mackenzie (00:05:07): I was like, "I'm talking to Carolyn very soon, and I am definitely telling her that he said that." Carolyn Leiloglou (00:05:13): Oh, that is amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Sarah Mackenzie (00:05:15): Yeah. Yeah. He's your biggest fan, I think. Sam, what about you? S.D. Smith (00:05:20): Hi, I'm S.D. Smith. I wrote the Green Ember series and some other books, and my wife, Gina, and I have four kids as well. And they're in the same age range as yours, I think, yeah, sort of, from 21 down to 12. So really in a similar... I've got two girls, two boys. We're also mostly a creative family. Everybody's into music, everybody plays stuff. And actually, most of the kids write a lot of music too. And my oldest are writing a book series together, Jack Zulu and the Waylander's Key. And Jack Zulu and the Girl with Golden Wings, we wrote that together. He's 18 now. He's about to finish college. And he does screenwriting and music and he's in the film. He's a real weird kid, in the best possible way. Sarah Mackenzie (00:06:03): Yeah, of course. S.D. Smith (00:06:04): He also plays sports too. And most of my kids do both, but I have one kid who's really, really into sports, that's Mike, and he's my 15-year-old. He's majorly into sports, but he's also musical. Sarah Mackenzie (00:06:15): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:06:16): My youngest is into dance a lot, but she also likes to write and read and likes music as well. And my oldest, Anne, she's 21, she's wonderful. She's a good writer, an excellent writer. She writes musicals, that kind of thing. She writes a lot of song- Sarah Mackenzie (00:06:32): I didn't know that about Anne. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:06:32): That's cool. S.D. Smith (00:06:34): She actually wrote an L.M. Montgomery book, and she made it a musical, and I'm trying to think of it. It's The Blue Castle. Is that right? Sarah Mackenzie (00:06:42): Yeah. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:06:43): Wow. S.D. Smith (00:06:43): So she wrote a musical from it. And then I think she found out that it was not in the public domain. But she was like, "It's not very good, anyway." I'm love my kids. I know that's weird, that's unusual, but I love my kids. I know it's different than most people, but I think I'm for them. Sarah Mackenzie (00:07:04): So excellent. The Green Ember, the whole series, the whole Green Ember series, is perhaps the most requested and beloved series at Read-Aloud Revival. It is the book we always hear about on Let the Kids Speak. Kids are always calling in and telling us about The Green Ember. When I go around to homeschool conferences, they're always wearing their Green Ember shirts and... Big fans here, of course. Okay. Actually, what I want to start with is this essay. I'm going to read aloud to both of you, which is a shock, I'm sure. This is an essay from Katherine Paterson's out of print collection of essays called A Sense of Wonder, it is lovely. This particular essay, it's called Dog-day Wonder. I'm going to look at where it first printed. First printed, I guess, in Parents' Choice magazine in 1979. But I'm just going to read it, and then we can talk about it. (00:07:58): And for those of you who are listening and watching and are not familiar, or you think, "Katherine Patterson. Why do I know that name?" she has written a lot of books for children. Some of her books include Bridge to Terabithia, Jacob Have I Loved. My favorite of her writing is actually her essays on writing and reading for children. I love her essays. This whole book, I don't know if you can see all my Book Darts, but the whole thing is written in margins and underlined to heck and back. So it's just one of my absolute favorites, I love it. Katherine Patterson has four children. They're all grown now. But she's asked, a lot, during her time as the children's literature ambassador and as she was giving speeches and things and is continuing to give speeches and things, how having children has impacted her creative work. We're going to talk a little more about that later, but she starts this essay by talking about those very beloved children. Here we go. (00:08:53): Dog-day Wonder. "It was the sort of hot and humid day in late August that I just hoped to get through without snapping off the children's heads at the neckline, not the sort, surely, upon which I expected to receive a wonderful gift from one of the very children I was threatening to decapitate. At about noon, David brought me a cicada, which he had earlier discovered coming out of the ground. 'I think it's about ready to shed its skin,' he said. 'Watch.' You would think that a dog-day cicada would sense that it had a bare two days to live and get on with emerging, but it took its own sweet time. First, a tiny slit in the back, then very gradually. It was as though it had pulled down a waist-length zipper. (00:09:39): "A hint of color began to show in the narrow slit, the extremities grew born as limbs, were eased out of the old armor. The eyes dulled as the living ones were withdrawn. And then the colors, I never would've believed them. A pure Caribbean green, yellow, aqua, cream, beige, and flecks of gold like jewelry on the head. When almost out, its wings, bits of crumpled ribbon at its sides, our cicada still clung to the old brown shell, which now seemed half again too small for its splendid body. By this time, we had watched for nearly an hour, but we weren't impatient. All our life processes had slowed down, so captivated were we, by its metamorphosis. At long last, the wings stretched out, transparent, except for hairline veins of green and yellow. Suddenly, in the only swift move we saw, it swung like a circus acrobat from the dry sarcophagus to the twig from which the discarded shell still hung. We swelled with pride. Our cicada had made it. (00:10:45): "We left it, then, checking from time to time. The glorious colors of the newly emergent cicada darkened in time to a rich black, though its belly remained a lighter shade, and it still wore gold upon its head. At about four o'clock, the twig was empty. Our cicada had flown to the oak tree to breed and die, oblivious to the wake of wonder it had left behind. As I let that wonder wash over me, I realized this was the gift I really wanted to give my children, for what good are straight teeth and trumpet lessons to a person who cannot see the grandeur that the world is charged with. In her book, The Sense of Wonder, Rachel Carson says that if she had influence over the good fairy who gives gifts to children at their christening, she would ask the fairy to give each child a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life as an unfailing antidote against the boredom and disenchantment of later years, the sterile occupation with things that are artificial, the alienation from the sources of our strength. (00:11:51): "Pity we can't tap that fairy resource. Or is it? Isn't wonder a truly human characteristic? In fact, I don't even subscribe to that well-worn platitude that children are born with a sense of wonder that becomes doled in the pursuit of living. Children are born with a wholesome sense of curiosity, I won't argue that, but wonder is more than curiosity. It demands an element of awe, a marveling that takes time and wisdom to supply. Both Rachel Carson, and her nephew, Roger, for whom she wrote her book, had a sense of wonder. But I defy anyone to prove that his sense, simply because he was a child, was of a higher quality than hers. As the book shows, Roger caught his sense of wonder from his aunt who never tried to teach him natural history, she simply shared with him something that had filled her with wonder, saying, "Watch," or, "Listen," or, "Smell." Thus, to follow Ms. Carson's lead, if I want my children to develop an indestructible sense of wonder, then I must first develop my own. (00:12:58): "There have been times, that twilight when we saw the double rainbow spanning Lake George and snatched all the children out of bed to run to the lakeside and watch until it faded into dusk, or when the riot of summer stars drove us right out of our car into an open field to bend our necks back and gape and gaze. But as I joyfully recall these rare moments, I am sobered to realize how often I must be missing other chances for wonder, which like Dog-day Cicada, are all about me humming in the trees. 'tis ye, 'tis your estranged faces that miss the many splendor thing. What I desire then for myself and for my children is a face not estranged, but expectant, a sense of wonder on the way to becoming both indestructible and contagious." (00:13:55): My favorite part of this whole essay is when she says, "What good are straight teeth and trumpet lessons to a person who cannot see the grandeur that the world is charged with?" And since we're talking, today, about how our own creative lives as adults impact our children's and fostering that creativity, I just thought, "That's really what we're up against. That's really what we're doing, I think, that's really our goal, is to help them, charge them with this wonder to see." I don't know. What stands out to you, Sam? S.D. Smith (00:14:28): Wow. That's beautiful. I love it. And it reminds me of my favorite quotation from Catherine Patterson, which is, "Oh, shut up, Sam," which she said to me when we were together at the HopeWords conference a couple of years ago. We sat together for a long time and that only stuck with me, the way she said it. "Oh, shut up, Sam." Sarah Mackenzie (00:14:51): I can hear her saying it, actually. I actually interviewed her for a previous episode of the podcast. I should have said that before I started reading. But I'll put that in the shownotes because she is so smart, and I love the way she thinks about wonder and creativity and writing and story and childhood. S.D. Smith (00:15:08): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (00:15:09): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:15:09): It's beautiful. That's such a beautiful passage, it's incredible. I didn't know about that book. I have one of her books on writing, and I don't have that, and I need to get it. Sarah Mackenzie (00:15:18): Well, I'll say this for anyone who's looking, they're hard to find because they're out of print. Maybe we'll have to do something about that. But A Sense of Wonder is my favorite one on reading and writing books for children. Then there's also this one, the Invisible Child. This might be the one that... I think this one might be a little easier to find, also out of print. But she wrote a bazillion, that's an actual number, of essays on reading and writing for children, and they were just collected in different groups. So there's crossover, some of these essays are in this one. And then there's some collections on Amazon Kindle, too, that are different collections that have some of these and some others. She has so many. Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:15:57): That was powerful, though. It reminded me of really special times. I know we're probably going to get into it, but that is where all of my work has come from, is these connections of wonder with my own kids. All of my creative work that people would know about is a product of that, a product of the shared moments of wonder. And they almost always happen, or I guess... Yeah, most of them happened outside, on walks kind of a thing. And so it's beautiful. I really resonate with that. I resonate with her emphasis on the fact that it's more caught than taught, wonder. Sarah Mackenzie (00:16:32): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:16:33): And also, it makes me lament a little bit because I think of it as almost... It's funny, because, vocationally, this is what I do, and I still think of it as something that was more true of my kids when they were younger than they are now, and I still associate it with that, and associated it with them and with my time with them when they were little, and it's almost as something that is faded in a way. And that's not entirely true, but that feels like the friction of life is that you're continually... And I almost feel like I wonder if that's why I spend so much time professionally playing in this desire to be in those moments again and to have those same sort of feelings of wonder, because, yeah, I long for that, and I remember it being a native tongue as a child. Sarah Mackenzie (00:17:22): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:17:22): And as an adult, it feels less native and more difficult, harder to recapture. And I almost know the reasons why, but I feel powerless to do very... about it. But I don't want to give up, and I'm not giving up. That was just absolutely lovely. Sarah Mackenzie (00:17:42): Well, Laura Martin, who's a middle grade author I love, she was just on the show and talking about how she thinks kids have hundreds of good ideas every day, they just walk around seeing ideas and what-if stories, and, "Imagine this, and imagine that." And then when we're adults, we have one good idea every week, or something. I don't remember how she said it. Yeah. And so she was like, "You just got to write them all down because they just slow down." So I do think there is that sense of... It's why we all, I think, want to recapture that wonder of childhood that does feel like it fades, for sure, among all the other things that we do as adults. Carolyn, what stands out to you about that essay from... Carolyn Leiloglou (00:18:22): A lot of things. One of the things that stood out to me is actually how she's making this metaphor with observing the cicada, and then suddenly she twists it where we're the cicada, which makes me think... And it was really brief, but it makes me think, "Oh, there's so much wonder in my own life. I don't always have to be searching for something." I don't think I've ever actually seen a cicada hatch from its husk, so that's pretty cool. Sarah Mackenzie (00:18:49): I haven't. I'm okay with that too. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:18:52): I think it'd be really cool. But, yeah, there is so much wonder in our lives that we are walking by every day, just to have eyes to see. And you're right, Sam. Especially, when you have younger kids, it helps you to see that. I just was thinking about the fact that I actually didn't really start trying to write until after I had kids. It was something I'd always wanted to do, but something about having kids awakened that a little bit more and maybe gave me... I don't know if it's a reason or a confidence or just somehow awoke that more in me, something that had been sleeping a really long time. Yeah, that's so cool. (00:19:32): But we don't have to lose it. When we were out taking my daughter to college in California, we went tide pooling on her last free day. And just seeing the kids wondering at all this wildlife and the ocean that... We don't have that kind of ocean. Our ocean is very, very tame here in Texas. Just the differences and being somewhere new and opening your eyes can really make a big difference. Sarah Mackenzie (00:20:01): I want to go back to something you said, Sam, which is that you feel like so much of your creativity has come from your time with your children. One of the things I've heard Katherine Patterson say... Actually, I know it's in this collection somewhere, but I could not find where, so I'm just going to say it in my own words. I'm trying to remember what it was. But basically, she was saying people would ask her, all the time, "How do you write with all these children around?" And she was like, "I couldn't write without them around, actually." They're the source and summit of sorts of her writing. You're nodding. Tell me. What's going through your head? S.D. Smith (00:20:38): I totally resonate with that so much. There is a civilization-wide debate now about the place and importance of children. And there's so many, more than, it seems like, anytime in history, adults, opting for a perpetual childhood that's divorced from the historical, "Oh, we'll get married and we'll have kids, and we'll..." It's like that's an option that's less appealing to a lot of people. The implication there is, of course, that children are obstacles. Sarah Mackenzie (00:21:07): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:21:08): And of course, they are, to some things, there's no question about that. They cost money. And if you look at them in this cold, calculating economic, or even by the lens of, "How much pleasure can I achieve in my life?" you might not, or either you might not be faulted for questioning whether or not having kids will... "Will that enhance my happiness?" Whatever. It was like, "Of course, will in lots of ways." But I think, to me, I truly believe that children are not an obstacle into creativity. I think that my children themselves are the most potent art I'll ever be a part of creating. I think that they themselves are the product of creativity, and they are the most... Everything that an artist wants, they want this connection, they want meaning, they want something to resonate, they want... There's so many things that artists want that you actually have with your children, if it were intentional. It's dangerous, they're the best art. It can go badly. It does. It will go badly, there's challenge, there's drama. (00:22:17): I think the best art is hospitable and loving and giving, and it's about love for another person. And so it's really hard to achieve that level of love for someone else that a parent has for a child, it's just so deep. And out of that depth can come this... I think it's so neat that you said, Carolyn, that a lot of the stories didn't come until after you had the children. And I think that's true for me. I think there were stories before, but they were different. They never had the same heart, none of the same deep desire to connect and to bless and to love that is there. And so most of the audience for the Green Ember, for instance, is not my kids, not living in my home, but they have all benefited from the love that I have for my kids because that love is overflown to them. Overflowed. That's the right... It hasn't overflown them like in an airplane that flies over. I'm good at English. I write book, I'm really... Sarah Mackenzie (00:23:18): Well, actually, I think, like you said, it's tempting, especially because of the culture, I think, to think of kids as obstacles. They are constraints, and I think that is one of the things we can acknowledge, but all of the best art happens through constraints. And actually, as somebody who's creative, if I don't start with a constraint, I can't start at all. When I think of, "I'm going to write a story about Barbara Cooney," if I'm writing a story about Barbara Cooney for adults, it's going to have a whole different form than it is if I'm writing a story about Barbara Cooney for children. Those constraints are really important for me to even get started. So I feel like it all goes together with, you need constraints. I don't know if any... I remember, one summer, the twins... (00:23:59): Okay, our kids must have been something like 14, 12, 10, 2, 2, and 3, something like that, and I would have a half an hour to write a day, and I would get so much done in that little half an hour. And then, for a summer, one of my friends' high school kids would come over and give me three or four hours, which was amazing, but actually didn't get a whole lot more done than I got done in my little half an hour, I think, because it was like I didn't have the constraint of, "Sister, if you're going to write, you better write now. This is what you got." (00:24:32): So there's something about the constraints that are really helpful to not just get us... Help us know what to make, because like you said, if it's an act of love, if art is an act of love for the person who's going to read it, if we're talking about written art here for a minute, then we have to start with the reader. We have to know who the reader is so we can write to them. But then also the constraint of just getting us to actually do it and overcome the voices in our head that are saying, "You don't know what you're doing. What are you doing? Who are you to make this? Who are you to write this? Nobody wants to read what you write." Unless that's just the voice in my head that neither of you have, but I have a hunch. Carolyn, talk to me about kids' constraints, your kids' constraints and maybe catalysts for your creativity. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:25:15): Yeah. Yeah. And I think it can look different as a woman, definitely, than as a man. As a woman, you tend to have a lot more responsibility in the household. And I've also been homeschooling this whole time, and so I've got a lot of restraints on me. Constraints. I will say, for me, every single year has looked different, and I try to prioritize what my kids are doing and then try to find a way that my writing can fit around that. So for several years, we did a drop-off homeschool PE program, and I still had a preschooler who would come with me and we would literally... The only place nearby the PE program was McDonald's. So we would go to McDonald's and I would sit and write for three hours and she would play in the play place. Sarah Mackenzie (00:25:59): Amazing. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:26:00): And that was the time that I had and that was the constraint. But it worked. Especially at the time I was writing picture books, it really worked. So I feel like, for me, as a mom, that has looked different every year, and has definitely evolved as my kids have gotten older and maybe more independent in some ways. But then I can also share more of my work with them as they've gotten older and they can actually be more... My kids are always very much my cheerleaders. It's very, very sweet. That they can actually give actual feedback as they get older, which is super cool. And I definitely see that inspiring them to make their own art. S.D. Smith (00:26:41): I think that's funny that all three of us have commented on the fact that limitations have been... I think of those times when my kids were young. Well, the period of time that the actual Green Ember, that book, came out, for me, was the most insane time of my life. We had very young kids and are working very, very hard, there was really, really thin margins. And that time invested with my kids, that produced this story in a time when I had no margin at all and there were so many difficult things going on that... I think you're right, Carolyn, about the unique challenges of men and women or moms and dads. It is funny sometimes that small margins, or, like you said, those constraints, can produce these incredible things, particularly when it's combined with this, I don't know, landscape of love, the landscape where you care so much. Nobody can care the way that you care at that time for your kids. (00:27:39): And so there's something special, magic that happens there, not just with literature, but I think in lots of areas of life, like a kind of self-forgetfulness, which is key to storytelling, in my opinion. That's one of my favorite things about being a storyteller is those moments of deep self-forgetfulness, not being anxious and I stop worrying and I'm creating and... It's play. It's play. To have an escape like that. But that's what being a parent is. It's like a continual confrontation with self-forgetfulness and putting others first. It's a little bit like marriage is too, really. Sarah Mackenzie (00:28:12): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:28:12): Then it's just extends further into this sort of self-sacrifice. And it's a beautiful thing and it's a hard thing. But I'm really, really convinced that beautiful things come from labor pains, that life comes from labor pains and there's a less... If less than grain of wheat falls to the ground, it dies, it can't... There's something about that in the fallen world that it's like... There's a certain kind of pain and difficulty and constraint, and sometimes it's joyful, sometimes it's hard, whatever, that can produce things that are really, really beautiful. And I think that's what happens in homes, that's what happens with kids. Sarah Mackenzie (00:28:48): Carolyn, your book series... Well, first of all, maybe let's give the listeners... Maybe if you want to give them a premise of the story series, because I want to ask you specifically because, your books, they're novels that are also actually celebrations of art itself, so it feels meta for us to dive into that. So, first, tell us about the books. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:29:10): Sure. So book two is about to come out. So if anyone's not familiar with the series, The Restorationists takes place in a world like ours, but where art is powerful, paintings are portals, and one family has been tasked with protecting them. So in the second book, Between Flowers and Bones, the story is continued from Georgia's perspective. And Georgia's always expected to be the last Restorationists, so she's thrilled when Vincent is joining the team. But pretty soon, his flashier gift makes her feel like a sidekick. And when she's faced with an impossible decision that challenges everything, she believes she has to learn that every gift is important in fighting the darkness. Yeah. So there's good guys, bad guys, it's a very adventure-y type of story. But all the art is actual art that you could go see at a museum or that sometimes are privately owned or stolen and still missing. I list all of those in the back of the book. Sarah Mackenzie (00:30:08): Yeah, I love that tie-in. So, the first one, there's a lot of Van Gogh in the first one, and the second one is- Carolyn Leiloglou (00:30:14): A little bit of Rembrandt. Sarah Mackenzie (00:30:16): ... Georgia O'Keeffe, right? Carolyn Leiloglou (00:30:17): A lot of Georgia O'Keeffe. And she's not the only artist, but she's probably the most well-known that's in that one. Sarah Mackenzie (00:30:20): Okay. Okay. Yeah. So tell me, what was the impetus for you to write an adventure novel about art? Carolyn Leiloglou (00:30:29): Yeah. So when I first started thinking about this idea, it was actually in a writing webinar. They said, "Think about the most magical place from your childhood." And for me, it was, hands down, my grandparents' house. Their house was just very eclectic. They had trinkets from all around the world, like a ton of books. But on every wall, it was just filled with art, they were art collectors. And then upstairs, they had a room with all of the extra paintings they didn't have space for, and they were just in stacks. And their upstairs was kind of creepy, and didn't really going up there. So I started thinking about their house and this place. And there's a lot of art background in my family. My mom was an art major, so we went to a lot of museums growing up, and just had more of a sense, maybe, of art than maybe a lot of other younger kids did. (00:31:20): And so just thinking about that, thinking about what kind of character would need a story starting off in a place like that and what would happen if they could go inside the painting. So that was the spark for the idea. But the secondary spark, the emotional spark, is that, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a writer. And I gave up on that in middle school. I thought I wasn't good enough. School was easy for me, I was a smart kid, but then writing wasn't easy, I realized, maybe my idea would kind of run out of steam, or I just wasn't sure if I was good at it. I was a horrible speller. And so I thought, "I just don't know if I can do this. Maybe I'm not supposed to do it." And I literally gave up on it, until after I had kids of my own. (00:32:05): So Vincent, the main character in the first book, is facing that same dilemma where he has given up on his art because of peer pressure and just thinking that he wasn't good enough. So that's the emotional journey of the story. Sarah Mackenzie (00:32:22): So good. I think it pairs really well for any of our listeners who are like, "Okay, I'm going to get my hands on this." So Beneath the Swirling Skies, where to start. Remind me what the second one is called. I can't remember the title. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:32:32): Between Flowers and Bones. Sarah Mackenzie (00:32:33): Between Flowers and Bones. I actually think they pair really well with Jennifer Trafton's Henry and the Chalk Dragon- Carolyn Leiloglou (00:32:39): Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (00:32:39): ... which is also an interesting adventure/fantasy novel about making art and overcoming barriers in your creativity. Now, Sam, when you wrote the Green Ember, that started with you telling stories to your kids. Is that right? Tell us about that. S.D. Smith (00:32:56): It did. Yeah. It started on the porch, not too far from where I'm sitting right now, just telling stories to my oldest, Anne, who was just a little toddling infant... Not an infant, a toddler. A toddler. She was brilliant. Even as an infant, she was toddling around, but I used to just tell her different stories. Yeah, there was story time, and there were rabbits hopping around in the yard, so I started telling her stories about the rabbits. And it became this thing with her and her younger brother. The Green Ember is about an older sister and a younger brother, and that's where it started, it was my two oldest kids when they were really little, and it was our family little story. (00:33:34): So, definitely, it was completely borne out of... I tell this to a lot of young writers. It had zero connection to the market, or it had no calculation, no business savvy, nothing about, "What do people want? What's hot right now?" or anything like that. And I think it actually was pretty contrary to what was hot or what was publishable at the time. So it was just a completely organic, natural story from a heart of love, from a dad to his kids. Sarah Mackenzie (00:34:05): So we all have kids who are creative and are pursuing different kinds of creativity, as they get older, especially. I'm just wondering... I know there are a lot of parents listening or watching this episode who are wondering, "How do I nurture the creativity in my kids? If they're saying they want to be a writer, they want to be an artist, how do I do that, especially if they're homeschoolers?" I'm just curious about what you both think has been the most impactful thing that you've done or haven't done. I don't know. What's been the most impactful part of nurturing creativity in your kids? Carolyn, you want to go first? Carolyn Leiloglou (00:34:43): Sure. I think one of the biggest gifts that we can give our kids is time to be bored, time without screens that they just have to figure something out to do, right? And that's going to naturally push them into the things that they're interested. For my son, it was drawing and piano, and for my oldest, it was just writing and reading just scores and scores of books. You really can't have true creativity without time to be bored. And I feel like a lot of modern life doesn't lend to that. Yeah, so that would be probably my number one tip to parents, is just give them the gift of time, even if they- Sarah Mackenzie (00:35:25): I love that. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:35:25): ... don't see it as a gift at the time. Sarah Mackenzie (00:35:28): They definitely won't. I say to my kids now, when they tell me I'm bored, I'll try and say like, "Oh, I can't wait to see what you decide to do with your time." And before you think I'm a great parent, I also say, "And if you can't figure out something to do with your time, there are some toilets around here that need scrubbing. So if I hear the word 'bored' again, I will volunteer you for something to do." What about you, Sam? What do you think? S.D. Smith (00:35:55): I love that one. That was a good one. Boredom is a massive part of my creative journey because I grew up in a holler, we say, in West Virginia, a holler between two mountains, we're in the mountain state. And it was really far back in the woods, had lots and lots of time to play out in the creek and in the woods, and that was just boredom. And honestly, being a little bit poor was just valuable because I didn't have a lot of toys, didn't have a lot of the toys that I wanted, like all the G.I. Joes and Star Wars figures and stuff. So we had to make a lot of stuff, and my dad would make stuff for us, and it was just... That was a huge part in my capacity for world building. I was just born in those times. So I agree with that 100%. (00:36:38): I also think about encouragement is so important. I just think that's massive. I always tell this story that we almost didn't get the Narnia stories because Lewis was such a fan of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings adventures, his middle earth adventures, he was just constantly reading and, "Oh, this is great, this is great. Keep going, keep going." And when Lewis wrote The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and shared it with Tolkien, Tolkien hated it. And he was very frank about how much he didn't like it. So Lewis was extremely discouraged and he almost set it aside kind of a thing. And his friend, Roger Green, Roger Lancelyn Green, who's also a wonderful writer, he said, "No, this is fantastic. This is wonderful. You have to publish it." And so he's the man who saved Narnia. And that's a massive thing. He also wrote a wonderful book called The adventures of Robin Hood, which was massively influential on me for the Green Ember world. And it probably influenced me more than maybe anything else for that world. Anyway, just an incredible... (00:37:40): So I think encouragement is so... You just can't live without that. You can't live without encouragement. So being a cheerleader, I think, is massively important. And I think there's also discipline. The area of discipline is really important for artists. I think we think of artists as undisciplined people, and maybe that's because that's very natural for us, but that's not good for us. You don't accomplish very much without discipline. And that's really pairs really well with habits. So I think we have this volition, we have this agency in it. And I think understanding that, as a child, how much agency you do have, even though somebody's telling you when to go to bed. You have so much power to create and foster excellent habits. And I think those go in different sort of realms, for me, anyway. It's real important for me. With my family, I wanted to foster spiritual habits with my kids. Handel said that the right hand of the artist withers when he forgets the sovereignty of God. (00:38:31): And I think there's such a connection, even if you think about most great art in history, it's, I guess... You mentioned Rembrandt and others, you think about Mozart, you think about... There's just such a strong spiritual connection in so much of their work. And I think that's really powerful. It's important, I think, it was for our family, to have these spiritual disciplines. But then also home and economic disciplines. If they're successful, at all, in their art, they're going to be running a business. And I don't know about you guys, but I wasn't ready for that. Sarah Mackenzie (00:39:01): That's a whole nother ball game. Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:39:04): And it may not come naturally, again, but to give them some kind of equipping in that world is such a gift and so golden. I wish that I was a little bit better prepared on that front. You mentioned it earlier, Sarah, but it's so much when it comes down to modeling, they'll do what you do. Sarah Mackenzie (00:39:20): Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:39:20): They will go where you go. The cliche is, it's hard to tell a kid, "Hey, go read a book," while we're scrolling on our phones. It's hypocrisy. And more is caught than is taught. But anyway, I feel like, discipline, habits, those are really, really powerful. Learning things that are a little bit uncomfortable if you're introverted as a kid, which you might be if you're more on this creative side, setting them up to challenge that, to get their heads up and see other people. That can happen in a church setting, in other places, we'll look for other people to serve. Those kinds of things that we might be weak at just because we're strong creatively, slow and steady, maybe, address some of those challenges. But to me, the big one is encouragement and love and modeling. And that doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but just try, don't give up on it. Sarah Mackenzie (00:40:12): Yeah. A couple of things came to mind as you were talking. I was thinking, part of that whole caught and taught is reading aloud, actually, because sharing stories. And when we share stories with our kids, of course, they're catching our enthusiasm for the story, which is why it also matters not to be reading stories that we think are insanely boring. It's like, "Oh, maybe skip those," because they can feel that. But if you're as excited or interested in what you're reading as your kid, your kids will pick up on that, and then there's that shared value for stories. Another thing about encouragement for our kids, Tomie dePaola told me that when he was really young, he told his mom he wanted to be an artist, and they had a small house and a lot of people in it, and they didn't really have the room for this, but she cleared out the attic and made it into an artist's studio for him. And he was little, I think it was something like seven, he was pretty young. (00:41:04): And he remembers that as being like, "Oh, my mom believes I'm going to be an artist." He was taking himself seriously, but then to have grownups take him seriously, too, was a huge vote of confidence. And so I even think, making space... My now 20... Well, when this airs, she'll be a 21-year-old, Allison, who's an art student at SCAD, she'll... I'll put a picture in the shownotes. She says I can share this one of a... This is just fun. And you would like this, Carolyn, because it's Van Gogh. But when she came home for college this last summer, one of the evenings after dinner, my husband and I went on a walk for 35 minutes. Right before we left, she said, "Do we have any sidewalk chalk around here?" And I was like, "Yeah, there's some in the garage. Poke around and see if you can find it." Right? (00:41:48): We come home and she has drawn Van Gogh on the driveway. Just wait until you see it. I'll send it to you after we're done recording, and we'll put it up on the screen here for our viewers, because it is like, "Oh, I didn't know you could do that with sidewalk chalk, actually." It's amazing. And one of the things that reminded me of is how often, when she was graduating from high school and going off to art school, several people would ask me, "So what did you do? What art classes did you put her in?" Because I'm not a visual artist. My husband's not a visual artist. And I would say, "Nothing. We didn't put her in any classes. She didn't have any formal training, but we did give her a lot of time and a lot of a space where she could be really messy." (00:42:26): So even when she was really young, we had this table down in the basement. And it had to be in the basement because it was always an abomination. It was so messy, there was always so much going on there. But it was the place where she could make things, and she would make all kinds of interesting art. She was so creative, and it was interesting to watch. But I also had to be okay with the fact that it was just always... There was little bits of paper and tape and glue. One of my twins is really into hot glue. He can make anything out of hot glue, I think. It's a little interesting. But there's also hot glue everywhere around my house. And whenever my oldest daughter will say like, "Oh, my goodness, Mom, this room is so messy." I'm like, "I know. But you all three, your oldest three, you all turned out so creative that it works, letting you have free-reign in a space at some time." S.D. Smith (00:43:19): I wonder what you guys think about this. I love indulging a child in, "Yes, you'll have supplies." And I always liked this idea of setting creative traps for kids about reading or making a beautiful place to read, and basically being a supplier and doing psychological tricks on them to set them up to succeed in some of these ways, like instead of rewarding someone for reading, making reading the reward, like that. Sarah Mackenzie (00:43:48): Yeah, I love it. Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:43:50): But I wonder about over-specialization. I tend to think that we can over-specialize. I want to encourage, like, "Oh, this kid loves drawing." Like my son, Josiah, he was a really incredible visual artist. He was always drawing, and I thought, "This guy's going to be a great illustrator." And he still draws, but he fell in love with music, and he writes music all the time, and he loves film, and he's writing novels. I don't know what he's going to be. He's 18, and I don't know what he's going to be, still. (00:44:18): But I tend to think... We did this creative conference called Inkwell years ago, and we were trying to debate with... I was talking to Zach Franzen who does the art for the Green Ember world, and I was saying, "We're going to do these different tracks. And there's kids that really want to be illustrators, and I would really like them to spend tons of time with you. So we'll have the illustrator track, we'll have the author track, we'll have the songwriter track, and we'll have the poetry track. You can really spend time with this songwriter." Randall Goodgame was the songwriter. "You can spend a lot of time with him." And Zach said to me, he said, "Actually..." We were debating on whether to do that or to just send all the kids through all the different four. And he said, "I would send them through all the four." He said, "They'll be a better illustrator if they go to the poetry workshop, and if they go to the author one, and if they go to the songwriting one, they'll be a better illustrator than if they spent the whole time with me." (00:45:09): And I buy that myself. I buy that as, be a generalist, let them play sports. They don't all have to. Or let them be interested in science and math, or let them learn to code or learn how to run a business, or let... Open up the world. Don't be like, "Oh, you are creative. You will write. Okay, go write and don't do anything..." Actually don't know much about the world if you don't understand other things. I don't know what you guys think about that, but I think there's a danger on overspecialization for kids. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:45:37): I totally agree with that. And I think that part of that is if they do actually decide to become a writer or a musician or whatever, and they don't have anything else, when that creativity becomes a job, they need a different creative outlet, right? S.D. Smith (00:45:53): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (00:45:53): Right. That's right. S.D. Smith (00:45:54): Like my son, he's really leaning toward music now, but he's always drawn too. And I was like, "Okay, don't stop drawing, that's your outlet now. You're not pursuing this as a business. You may want to go into piano and write songs, and that can be a lot of pressure. So use this other gift that you have for enjoyment." My husband, actually, so he's a pediatrician, but he writes songs. And he's not trying to professionally publish his songs, he sings them for our church, which is really beautiful. And people ask if he has them recorded, which he doesn't, he doesn't really have time to. But it's a beautiful gift that he gives to just our local community. I think that creativity can definitely be that, it can be used to serve locally, your family, your friends, writing poems for your friends. And there's so many different ways that our creativity can be used to serve other people and to bring joy to those around us. Sarah Mackenzie (00:46:55): I think of it like... Well, two things come to mind for me. One is that if you want to become a writer, you better have a pretty full life or you'll have nothing to write about. So if everything that you do is about writing, you need to live so that you have life to write about. But the other piece, I think, for childhood, especially, is that part of what I feel like my husband and my job is is to spread this feast for our kids, just dabble in a whole bunch of things because you don't even know what you might be interested in or what is the possibility. So if you have a kid who's drawing and they show a lot of promise really young, and you decide, "Okay, they're going to be on an illustrator track, or something," and like you said, at a conference, they're just going to the illustration things, they're getting a really narrow set of skills and ideas. (00:47:44): A lot of times, I find that my most creative work, both here at the Read-Aloud Revival, and my work as an author, come from when I'm reading completely outside of my genre or something completely different, and then I'm like, "Oh, my goodness, that is like this other thing in this other part of my world." So I feel like that's just another argument for not specializing too young, giving our kids time and space and believing in them, encouraging them, and also being like, "You've never tried this other thing before. Let's try it and see. Why don't you take this class, or that class, or this track at the workshop, or watch this YouTube video on this thing?" Yeah. S.D. Smith (00:48:25): I totally agree. And I just think about my own life and moments in which I was afraid, and mostly afraid of being bad at something or being embarrassed, and saying the words, "I'm bad at..." Like, "I'm bad at math." And for me, it gives me this comfort, so I don't have to be uncomfortable in front of other people, I can just say, "I'm bad at it." So then that's an announcement. So if I not do as good in school or whatever, then... But I've just closed this door on this universe of understanding. And it's too early on just closing those doors. "I'm bad at science," or, "I don't care about art. I don't care about painting." That might be something that a young boy would say, like, "Oh, that's a girl's thing." That's what I thought about books when I was young. I was like, "I saw girls reading, I never saw a boy reading." So I was like, "Boys don't read." And it's so dumb. It just cuts you off from this massive world. (00:49:14): So, yeah, overspecialization, I think, is a really, really dangerous thing. And, yeah, God made us with these various capacities, I think, that we have this intellectual capacity, and we have this imaginative capacity, and we have all these physical capacities. And so exploring those and not shutting the door on him too early. Even our word, we can... Like, "Oh, that's my creative kid." Sarah Mackenzie (00:49:37): Yes. S.D. Smith (00:49:37): Or, "He's not very- Sarah Mackenzie (00:49:37): Oh, yes. S.D. Smith (00:49:39): Or, "That's the one that's good. He likes to draw. He's weird that way." We might even mean it as encouragement, but we could be helping them to close doors that actually would hurt them creatively. Sarah Mackenzie (00:49:49): Hurt them creatively, or impacts the other siblings who hear you say, "Oh, this is the artist in the family," thereby meaning that the other ones are not. Okay. So what you were just saying, Sam, about "I'm bad at, fill in the blank", reminds me that John Acuff, and I just had him on the show for episode 249, we were talking about a specific exercise in his book, All It Takes Is a Goal, that I think is super helpful for homeschool moms. But I was re-listening to that audiobook, which I highly recommend, by the way. All It Takes Is a Goal, by John Acuff. In there, he talks about shifting that language whenever you want to say, "I'm bad at..." to, "I'm new at..." because then it makes it like, "Oh, well, of course you're not good at writing yet. You're new at it. Of course you're not good at the piano yet. But it's because you're new, it's not because you're just bad at it." So I love that because I thought saying, "I'm new at..." can be something that our kids could get really used to as well. "I'm new at basketball." S.D. Smith (00:50:46): That's beautiful. And honestly, just for writers, that's the heart of my Green Writer thing is that exact idea, because I've been striving for young writers to be a Green Writer, and green in two ways. Green as in you have a green light, you can go, you don't have to wait. You don't have to wait until you're perfect. You don't have to wait for permission. You don't have to wait until you're not scared, you can go right now. Go, go, go. But then it's also, "I'm green, I'm a living thing. I'm someone who's growing, I'm not yet what I'm going to be." So it's the exact same kind of thing. "I'm new, I'm young, I'm growing, so I'm a green, growing thing. I don't look exactly how I'm going to look as a writer, but I'll never get there if I don't start and if I don't be brave." And I think that's why it's connected with the "go", like, "You got to go. You got to go before your..." That is the active word, "... while you're scared." And I love that. I'm new at this. That's a wonderful framework. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:51:35): I tell my kids something very similar. So if they say, "Oh, I'm bad at drawing people." And I was like, "Well, you're not good at drawing people yet, but you get good at what you do. So if you want to get good at drawing people, you can, just do it. Keep doing it, and then you get good at it." Sarah Mackenzie (00:51:50): I can't remember if it was her sophomore, junior, senior year in high school, something like that, Alison, the one who's in art school now, she wanted to get better at drawing hands. She loves drawing people, but she found that hands were just so hard, so she gave herself a challenge. For every day for a year, she drew a hand. She's excellent at drawing hands by the end of that year. And then she was like, "Now I got to work on feet because my feet are so bad." It's just so funny, though. But whenever she gets a college assignment that has hands involved, everybody else in class is like, "Oh, hands are the hardest!" She's like, "I got this." And that goes back to that discipline thing that's like, "You do get better at something." You do have to have some kind of discipline to be a better writer, a better artist. So there's both of those things. S.D. Smith (00:52:36): That is so inspiring because that takes so much bravery. It takes bravery to be bad at something publicly, or whatever, to do something imperfectly. But no one ever starts off being good at anything, so you have to give yourself a chance to be bad. And that that's another moral of attendance of my writing class is, yeah, get good at being bad. Sarah Mackenzie (00:52:59): Yeah. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:53:00): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (00:53:00): That's so true. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:53:01): That's so powerful. I love that story. I'm taking that story now. That's mine now Sarah Mackenzie (00:53:05): Take it. Take it. Briefly, you mentioned your Green Writer writing course online for kids. And we always recommend that at Read-Aloud Revival if you've got a kid who is interested in writing, especially if they're Green Ember fans, because learning writing from the writers you love takes on... It's just different, it hits differently than it does just taking a writing class for homeschool or whatever. So I highly recommend it. We'll put a link to it in the shownotes for anybody who's listening who thinks their kids might dig it because it's pretty great. I feel like we're all talking about we're learning how to raise creative kids. We're doing it, but that's how you learn anything is you're doing it. So we're raising creative kids, we're working on our own creative projects. What's the hardest part of that tension, either on the raising creative kids or the working on your own creativity, or maybe it's both? What comes to mind for you as being something that's particularly challenging? Sam, you want to go first? S.D. Smith (00:54:03): I think it's hard, period. It's hard to say. A lot of people want to connect. If you think about an art class somewhere, often the reputation is that that is a time when nothing is happening except just craziness and people have supplies and, what you were describing, a scene where it's open. And I think people think that's what art is, it's just nothing, and apart from discipline, it's just a time where kids have fun. Sarah Mackenzie (00:54:32): There's no structure. S.D. Smith (00:54:33): Yeah. So I think that one of the hard things is being a positive person about your kids' art and being like, "Oh, that's really good. You made this drawing that looks... Oh, what is it? Oh, I..." Because I have no idea. Because it looks so crazy, I have no idea what it actually is. Encouraging them and saying, "Oh, that's really beautiful. Oh, yeah, of course I could tell that was a lion," and put it up on the fridge, being that encourager, and then also someone who knows what it's like and what it demands to do that in a more serious manner. And the challenge between those two, it's a really a careful dance of discipleship, of mentoring, of friendship, of love, of authority. And as you get into these adult kids, which we're all having now, it's like the dynamic changes some. And so at what point do you hold them accountable and say, "No, what you're doing, that's laziness and that will lead to this. That's a really..."? And when do you just say, "I love you. I love you just how you are. You're awesome, you're wonderful,"? (00:55:34): To me, that's the challenge, is knowing how to navigate that well as they get older with the particular information that I have that's very directly related to the business of being a writer, that's my job. And not everybody has that. But that particular information is hard to pass on generously. So, rooting all of that in love. And that, to me, maybe that's why love is just a supreme virtue, because it's got to master all the other ones, like how to fall back into a heart of love and acceptance for my kids that invites them into high standards, invites them into challenging things, that doesn't say, "Take the shortcut," that doesn't say, "Mediocre or unkind or selfishness is okay." So I think that might be the biggest challenge for me is just knowing how to navigate those different callings. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:56:32): That was a great answer. So I'm going to take the question in a totally different direction and not just repeat what Sam said. So the other half of what you're asking is, how do we balance that between our creative lives and our kids' creative lives? Because I would say anyone raising kids is raising creative kids. All kids are creative. Right? And so as a parent who's also trying to be creative and pursue a creative career, one big thing is I have to make sure my kids understand that they really are my priority, that I don't care more about these book babies than I care about them. (00:57:10): And obviously, there's going to be seasons where it's more busy with a book launch, but I really have been trying to make an effort to show them that, "No, I really care about what you have going on. Obviously, no, we can't do every single thing you want to do. That's just part of being in a family, we have family commitments and stuff. But you are more important to me than this book. It'd be really silly for me to just be writing books and not be caring about you guys." So I'd, number one, try to make that really clear and obvious to them and talk about it. So, yeah, that's the other direction of that answer is, as an adult, pursuing creativity, how do I approach that with kids? S.D. Smith (00:57:57): What about you, Sarah? I really do. I'm curious about you because how do you do that? How do you balance that with your own children? Tell us the answers to all of life. Carolyn Leiloglou (00:58:06): What should we be doing, Sarah? Sarah Mackenzie (00:58:10): I was just going to actually say I think that same tension of wanting to support your kids and help them feel seen and valued and loved by you, and also pursuing your own dreams. It's hard. It's like that tension is tricky. It's so interesting. Just this last weekend, my oldest daughter is still home before she leaves for Scotland, I came home at the end of the day and there was a pot of mums on my dresser in my room with a letter where she was like, "Just mums for my mom. I just wanted to let you know that... Thank you for being Christ's love to me." But she said a line in there that I was just like... And she said, "Thank you for modeling for me what it looks like to chase your dreams." And it's interesting because, when she was younger, I think I worried so much about whether or not she did feel like... (00:58:59): You get so excited about your projects when there's something big and exciting happening with them. And not that your kids don't feel loved by that, but there were definitely times when I know they were remarks from all the kids, or from me, or from my husband, that were like, "Hello, we're over here too," all valid, because when you get really into something, I will forget the rest of the world exists while I'm working on a creative project. So I feel like one of the things that is hard for me is remembering that it never feels in balance. Over time, if we zoom out, we can say, "Well, goodness, we spent so much time reading together and talking together and praying together and playing together." There was a lot of those. (00:59:39): But in the moment, on a normal day, I never feel like it's in balance. I feel like one is almost always eating the other. Either my parenting life is taking over everything, or my creative and work life is consuming more than it should, of my time and attention. But if I back up, I can get a little more perspective. It was helpful to hear that from my oldest daughter, like, "Thanks for modeling that because sometimes it feels just super selfish when we have our own creative dreams that we're pursuing." And we forget that, then, by being disciplined and writing most days, or doing our art most days, whatever that craft is, we're actually modeling for them something that they may be able to take with them, not just the fact that mom spends all of her time and attention pouring into their creative passions or interests, which is something that I also want to do. But yeah, that tension is hard, it's tricky. (01:00:40): Someone's listening right now who has a kid who wants to be a writer when they grow up. There's probably a lot of people listening or watching who have a kid who says they want to be a writer when they grow up. So what would you say to that mom or dad? Carolyn, what would you say? Carolyn Leiloglou (01:00:57): So this actually reflects what you guys were just saying is one thing I would say to parents whose kids want to be a writer, let them see you being creative. I just know, when I first started really pursuing writing and then I was sharing those little stories with my kids, instantly, they were writing their own stories, making their own little picture books. And what I've seen is, when I have taken time to be creative and show that to my kids, they see that happening, that they value their own creativity. And it's not just me, obviously. I said, my husband, he writes songs, he shares them with our church, and that just validates like, "Hey, God made us creative. This is something that's vital and important in your life, and it's worth giving time to, even if it's not your profession." That, I think, is one thing that makes the biggest difference. (01:01:50): And then I would just say don't be in a rush to publish them. Let them have this time to experience and create and develop their skills, take Sam's writing class, because once you do publish, your relationship to your work changes. And that's something I feel like most teens are not ready for, certainly not most younger kids are ready for, because then you have Amazon reviews, and they might be negative, and then you're having to think about sales and numbers and all of those things. So give them the gift of time, waiting a little bit for that, because they'll just be all the more prepared if and when they decide to publish later on. Sarah Mackenzie (01:02:32): That's good. S.D. Smith (01:02:35): Yeah, I think that's wonderful advice. And I would go a little bit to the habits thing, and I would just say, "Go. Go, don't wait." If you wait for permission... And I think Carolyn's advice about waiting on publication, I think that's great advice. Sarah Mackenzie (01:02:50): That's great advice. S.D. Smith (01:02:52): But as far as writing goes, go, you'll never get to the place where you're ready for publication, where you're ready to share really good, excellent work with other people, unless you go, unless you're bad at it for a while. And I will just say that habits beat talent. If you started writing 100 words a day right now and you did... Like Allison's hand thing, if you just did that, and yours was 100 words or 50 words, if you did that, you would be unstoppable at the end of that. The habit is so powerful. So, work, do it, and take the long cut, and draw hands every day, write every day, and you will be a rare creature, because it's not always just about what you are doing, but it's about what you're becoming and who you're becoming. And that's why I think it's really important to think about not just the craft, but about your identity and who you are. (01:03:47): I always like to say that love and service is better than fame and self-expression, that if you root yourself in a better identity... For me, I want to be identified with My Lord, Jesus Christ, and I think his way of love is this self-sacrificial, hospitable, loving way. And that's what I want to be. I want to be that kind of man and I want to be that kind of a writer. I want to be a generous person, the person who gives good gifts. If you think about your identity, work on that, know who you are and what you're operating out of. And I think that will also help a lot when the bad Amazon review comes, and when the rejection... and when this happens and that happens. I've been given a whole lot of grace, I've been given a lot of gifts, and I want to use my gifts that I've been given to serve and love others. And storytelling is an amazing, wonderful way to love others. (01:04:33): On the craft side, habits. And on the identity side, lean into that generous, hospitable disposition. And I think that will set you up, for all of the challenges that you'll face, better. It will equip you in a way that I think just going headlong won't or couldn't. Sarah Mackenzie (01:04:54): So good. Sam, what's coming out next? What should people know about? What books have either come out recently or are coming out next? What do you want people to know about? S.D. Smith (01:05:03): My newest book that just came out September 10th is called The Found Boys. And I'm really excited about this. It's my first traditionally published book, and it's a great story. It's about friendship and forgiveness, and I'm very excited about it. And you can find out more about that at sdsmith.com/foundboys. And honestly, it's an optimistic book. It's funny, but it's a hopeful book. It's a good book, it's a hopeful book. I think, if people read it, they'll come away feeling like... I don't know, feeling good, feeling warm and feeling hopeful about what they can do and be in our culture and through the eyes of a child, so much is possible. There's so much hope and so much possibility. And I think this book just floors that in an adventurous, funny way. Sarah Mackenzie (01:07:14): Excellent. Carolyn, what about you? Carolyn Leiloglou (01:07:23): Yeah. So we talked about this a little bit before, Between Flowers and Bones. So if people have read my first book, I always say the theme of that one is "you were made to create". And the theme of Between Flowers and Bones is more about every gift matters. People can go check that out. And I've got some free resources having to do with art, like a picture study guide and a guide to taking your kids to an art museum on my website at carolynleiloglou.com. Sarah Mackenzie (01:07:51): Excellent. And I'll put that link in the shownotes because nobody knows how to spell that. Carolyn Leiloglou (01:07:54): You know what? Can I tell you a secret? It's actually super easy to spell. Sarah Mackenzie (01:07:58): Yes. Yes. Carolyn Leiloglou (01:07:58): It's three English words smushed together. So lei, like a Hawaiian lei, L-E-I, log, like your chopping wood, and Lou, like the name. And that's LeilogLou. Sarah Mackenzie (01:08:08): That's amazing. Thank you both so much for coming. This has been a delight. (01:08:18): Now, let's go hear what the kids are reading and loving lately. Henry (01:08:27): My name is Henry, and I live in Los Angeles, and my favorite book is Winnie-the-Pooh. It's very funny because Pooh likes honey. Adlai (01:08:34): Hi, my name's Adlai. I'm seven years old, and I live in Overland Park, Kansas. My favorite book is Henry Huggins because it's really funny. Carolyn Leiloglou (01:08:41): Okay. What's your name? Jojo (01:08:41): Jojo. Speaker 1 (01:08:41): And how old are you? Jojo (01:08:41): Three. Speaker 1 (01:08:41): Where do you live? Jojo (01:08:41): Overland Park. Speaker 1 (01:08:51): And what's your favorite book? Jojo (01:08:52): Muncha, Muncha, Muncha. Speaker 1 (01:08:52): Muncha, Muncha, Muncha. Jojo (01:08:52): Muncha, Muncha, Muncha. Speaker 1 (01:08:57): And why do you like that book? Jojo (01:09:00): Because it's silly. Speaker 1 (01:09:00): Because it's silly. Micah (01:09:02): Hi, my name is Micah, and I'm from Tampa, Florida. And a book I'd recommend is a little Princess. And I don't know why, I just like it a lot and it's a good book. Speaker 1 (01:09:16): All right. What's your name? Annie Mae (01:09:18): Annie Mae. Speaker 1 (01:09:19): And how old are you? Annie Mae (01:09:20): Five. Speaker 1 (01:09:22): Where are you from? Annie Mae (01:09:23): Overland Park, Kansas. Speaker 1 (01:09:25): And what's one of your favorite books? Annie Mae (01:09:27): Chronicles of Narnia. Speaker 1 (01:09:30): What part do you like of that book? Annie Mae (01:09:31): When Lucy finds a wardrobe. Abigail (01:09:37): Hi, my name is Abigail, and I'm from Dacula, Georgia. And the book I'm recommending is The Penderwicks. I really like it because it's just full of imagination, and it's about these four girls who go on crazy adventures and just enjoy being a kid. Lydia (01:10:04): My name is Lydia. I live in Arizona. And the book I recommend is The Magical Yet. And why I recommend it is because it can help kids when they think they can't do things and they keep practicing and they can. Averna (01:10:28): Hello, I'm Averna, age 12, from Wales in the UK. I'm recommending The Glass Sentence trilogy, by Essie Grove, because it's a good adventure story. I like the characters and its inner creative setting. Sarah Mackenzie (01:10:43): Thank you so much kids. You know I love hearing your book recommendations. If you would like to leave a recommendation for a book that you love, go to readaloudrevival.com/message. We air every single one of those messages in the order they're received, and I want to hear what you're loving lately. I'll be back here in two weeks with another brand new episode. In the meantime, you know what to do. Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.