Best of RAR: How Read-Alouds Inspired the Wingfeather Saga with Andrew Peterson

Andrew Peterson (00:00): My new favorite word, this is so embarrassing, I can't believe I'm telling you this. But trond, T-R-O-N-D, has become my place filler word for anything. If I can't think of something- Sarah Mackenzie (00:10): Does it means something or did you make up? Andrew Peterson (00:10): It means whatever you want it to mean. It's like, for example, I'll be like... Sarah Mackenzie (00:28): Welcome to the Read-Aloud Revival. This is the show that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. I am thrilled today to be sharing with you something from the Riches Inside RAR Premium. Last summer in RAR Premium, which is Read-Aloud Revival's online community that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books and helps homeschool mamas become the peace-filled, joyful mamas they're called to be. Well, in RAR Premium last summer, we read the book On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness. Now, we always have a family book club going at RAR Premium. It's part of what we do there, and these family book clubs help so many families around the world create a simple but rich book club culture in their home. This was one of my favorites. It was basically a Wingfeather Saga summer. (01:30): As part of that, we invited Andrew Peterson to RAR Premium on Zoom to answer kids' questions about The Wingfeather Saga books. Now, we did this event at the start of this summer, so there's no spoilers in this interview. You can listen or continue watching this even if you haven't read the books yet. I have a feeling you're going to want to read The Wingfeather Saga books once you've heard this. Andrew Peterson is one of my all-time favorite guests. This was not his first time at the Read a Aloud Revival, but this interview was absolutely too good to keep from you, so we've brought it to the Read a Aloud Revival podcast. This is both audio and video. If you're listening to this podcast in your podcast app but you'd like to see the video, head to readaloudrevival.com/video to watch it on YouTube. (02:22): In today's episode, you're going to hear from Andrew Peterson about his inspiration for writing The Wingfeather Saga. Some ridiculous words that he made up that have actually... We've started using them in my own house. Andrew talks about world building in a rich fantasy novel like On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness. He shared his thoughts on storytelling. He tells which stories have impacted his writing the most, and he even told us which Wingfeather character is most like himself. I wonder if you can guess. I hope you this conversation with Andrew Peterson. We are so glad you're here. We are so excited to be reading On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness this summer. Andrew Peterson (03:13): I'm so honored that you chose that book. Thank you. Thank you. That's such a joy. Sarah Mackenzie (03:18): Well, so this is fun kids. For our Fairy Tale Summer, we're reading On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness. We're also reading classic fairy tales. But my daughter, Allison, who is 20 years old, and she's an art student now, The Wingfeather Saga is her all-time favorite book ever and ever and ever. She's the one who helped me come up with the plan. I said, "Wouldn't it be fun to do The Wingfeather Saga this summer?" It's nothing like a true Wingfeather fan to craft this whole summer full- Andrew Peterson (03:46): Really. Sarah Mackenzie (03:46): ... of Wingfeather goodness. I want to know if you have a favorite fairy tale from your own childhood? Andrew Peterson (03:53): Okay. You mentioned this question earlier. There's all the obvious ones. There's the Hansel and Gretel and whatever. That one came to mind first because it was scary. I liked the fact that a lot of those stories were a little bit creepy. They had this element of when you grow up and you think about it, you're like, "That's a horrifying story." That got in my imagination, I'm sure in a good way. I enjoy the delightful shiver of a good, scary story. But it wasn't until I was older that I discovered George MacDonald, and so I'm going to say I'm going to pick George MacDonald as my... His book, The Princess and the Goblin, is a fairy tale that I read to my kids when they were little and has some beautiful nuggets in it that stuck in my mind for a long time. That's going to be my answer. Sarah Mackenzie (04:40): At Rabbit Room, there are some really great George MacDonald books you guys have re-released, like The Light Princess and- Andrew Peterson (04:45): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (04:46): Is the Princess and the Goblin one of them? I can't remember now. Andrew Peterson (04:49): It was it the print? No, it wasn't the print. Sarah Mackenzie (04:51): The Golden Key. Andrew Peterson (04:51): The graphic novel. Yeah. Yeah. The Golden Key. Sarah Mackenzie (04:53): Okay. Andrew Peterson (04:55): Yeah. They're great, and his books are marvelous. There's a zillion of them. Not all of them are fairy tales, but there's a lot to be learned from George MacDonald. Sarah Mackenzie (05:06): Which, of course, all the authors that I feel like the best writers love, like Tolkien and Lewis. When I think of Wingfeather, I always think that it feels like it belongs in that family with Narnia and The Lord of the Rings. Then those authors, of course, were influenced by George MacDonald. That makes sense to me. That is all- Andrew Peterson (05:24): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. It's cool to go back and recognize things in George MacDonald that were subtly added to Lord of the Rings or Narnia, whatever. You find all kinds of little Easter eggs. Then I did the same thing with the Wingfeather books. I put all kinds of fun little names and stuff that were homages my favorite writers. It's cool to be... Not like I'm... I have to be clear, I don't think I'm nearly the writer as any of those folks are, but it's fun to be in the same lineage- Sarah Mackenzie (05:58): World? Yeah. Andrew Peterson (05:59): ... as a person who is a Christian who also really loves a great story and is trying to add more stories to the world is a great privilege. Sarah Mackenzie (06:10): Okay. We have a few speed round questions to kick us off. Very important questions, like the most important questions you've ever heard in your life. For example, what is your favorite food? Andrew Peterson (06:20): Wow. My favorite food. Mexican food. Almost anything... We eat Mexican probably three nights a week in the Peterson world. Sarah Mackenzie (06:27): You just had Mexican last night, I think, is what you just told us. Andrew Peterson (06:30): I did have Mexican last night, and I had it again for lunch today. Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (06:32): Amazing. That's my favorite kind of food too, so I love it. Okay. What about your least favorite food? Andrew Peterson (06:39): My least favorite food? That's a good question. I don't really have a least favorite food. Any restaurant, you name it, I will find something that I'm interested in. I'm pretty adventurous with food. It's funny, I do enjoy... I'm not a foodie necessarily, but I really like good food lovingly made. But I think if I had to pick my favorite genre of food, and Mexican falls into this category, it's like, I usually say this, "Bougie comfort food." You know what I'm saying? If you go to this nice restaurant that's got shrimp and grits, but it's fancy shrimp and grits. I recognize it, but then it's got this little tweak of coolness to it. At a nice Mexican restaurant, it's like the chimichanga, but it's a fancy chimichanga. That's what I [inaudible 00:07:29]- Sarah Mackenzie (07:29): Okay. I feel like there should be, in Nashville, a restaurant that's tagline is, "Good food lovingly made," because that's what you just said. Then when it's like, "What food is it?" It's bougie comfort food. Andrew Peterson (07:40): Bougie comfort. Pop's comfort food. I love it. Sarah Mackenzie (07:43): Yeah. Okay. If you could meet any author or illustrator, past or present, who would it be? Andrew Peterson (07:51): Whoa. Good question. Okay. This is a weird answer. Steve Martin. Sarah Mackenzie (07:58): Really? Andrew Peterson (07:59): He is not just a... It's a loose answer because he's written a few books and plays and he's a screenwriter, so he qualifies as an author, but he is also a really great musician. His book, Born Standing Up, which is his memoir about his career and how he started out, was really good for me. I loved it. I'm in this old generation, he's a fascinating person to me. I just watched the documentary on Apple about him. There's this two-part documentary, and there's just a lot going on inside that guy. If I could sit down and have a meal with him and just ask him what he thinks about the world, I would just love to know... (08:39): Because he was a philosophy major. Interestingly, I'm going off on a tangent here, but in the documentary they talk about how longing is a core part of Steve Martin's art. It was so interesting to hear that, that it showed all of these movies that he made, and there were these scenes where he was aching for something but he didn't know what it was. He was longing for love or he was longing for fulfillment or whatever. That's been one of the consistents through the course of his career. Longing, of course, is one of the things that I love about C.S Lewis. He talks a lot about that. Sarah Mackenzie (09:16): I feel like it really permeates your music, actually, that undertone of longing, longing for something. Andrew Peterson (09:23): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (09:24): Yeah. Andrew Peterson (09:24): Yeah. I think I didn't know it when I was making it, but later I was like, "Yeah, I recognize that that DNA is in there." I would love to have a conversation with Steve Martin and tell him that there is actually an answer to that longing. Sarah Mackenzie (09:37): So good. Okay. Oh my goodness. Well, I have his memoir actually in my Kindle loaded up to read. It's funny that you mentioned this. Andrew Peterson (09:43): It's good. Sarah Mackenzie (09:44): I'm like, "Whoa." Kids, you might know him as an actor, or maybe you don't know him as an actor because we're dating ourselves now, but... Andrew Peterson (09:51): Yeah. Yeah. I can't say... Kids, that answer was for your parents, not for you. Sarah Mackenzie (09:55): Yeah. That's right. If you could have a picnic anywhere in the world, where would it be? Andrew Peterson (10:01): Wow. That's a good question. I would say Castlerock, Northern Ireland. Sarah Mackenzie (10:08): It didn't take you long to get very specific. Tell me more? Andrew Peterson (10:11): Yeah. Yeah. Castlerock is a beautiful little village on the north coast of Ireland that I'm so grateful to have gotten to go there quite a few times, but we stayed there 10 years ago. A pastor let us use his little place for me and my family to go have a sabbatical. It wasn't until we got there... Very remote, in the middle of nowhere. I went on Wikipedia to find out about Castlerock, and it said, "This is the village that C.S. Lewis came to as a boy every summer on holiday when he lived in Northern Ireland." I was like, "That's crazy." I went down to the little information center and I was like, "Is that true?" They were like, "Yeah. He stayed in that building right there, and this was the beach that he played on." Just a few miles from there is Cair Paravel. It's called Dunluce Castle. (11:00): It was the castle that he said was the inspiration for Cair Paravel. It looks like... There are these beautiful cliff walks, and one of my favorite spots in the world is this cliff walk looking over the train tunnel next to the sea. There's this building called Mussenden Temple that sits out over the sea, and there's this little perch there that you can sit with your legs dangling over this huge cliff. The grass there is this really springy, soft grass. Our family, when we stayed there, we called it the bird's nest because it was this little cozy spot that we all found individually. I would be on a walk and I would turn a corner and Asher would be sitting in there, like, "Hey, what's up, Pop?" Seagulls flying everywhere, cliff, the whole thing. I wrote several chunks of The Warden and the Wolf King, the fourth Wingfeather book, sitting in the bird's nest there. Sarah Mackenzie (11:53): Wow. Andrew Peterson (11:54): It's one of the most magical places in the world to me. If I could just zap and have a picnic with my wife and family, that's where we'd go. Sarah Mackenzie (12:03): So good. Okay. Let's see. Here's a good one. In your opinion, what's the funniest word in the English language? Andrew Peterson (12:13): Wow. Well, here's one, this is a bad answer, but I make up words all the time. It's this goofy thing that I don't think I realized I did until I had friends point out how dumb it was. I have these goofy words. I nicknamed my kids all these nonsense names when they were little. Aiden was Chonus Ponus. I just called him Chonus Ponus, and that got shortened to The Chon. I'm trying to think what else. [inaudible 00:12:48]- Sarah Mackenzie (12:47): Can we call him The Chon when he comes to Read-Aloud Revival? Andrew Peterson (12:51): Ask him if he remembers that, and he... I can't wait to know his reaction. But Asher was Tinky-Tinky-Ty, which was also dumb. But that got shortened to Tink, which is where I got Tink for the Wingfeather Saga. Sarah Mackenzie (13:02): Amazing. Okay. Andrew Peterson (13:03): Then Sky's nickname was Lili Bobo. I called her Lili Bobo all the time, so that got shortened to Lili. I still call her Lili a lot of times because that came first, and then I named Lili in the books after that. Sarah Mackenzie (13:16): Okay. Andrew Peterson (13:17): But my new favorite word, this is so embarrassing, I can't believe I'm telling you this. But trond, T-R-O-N-D, has become my place filler word for anything. If I can't think of something- Sarah Mackenzie (13:28): Does it mean something or did you make it up? Andrew Peterson (13:29): It means whatever you want it to mean. It's like, for example, I'll be trying to talk to Jamie about, "Hey, we need to drop the car off at the shop," but I can't think of the words. I'll be like, "We need to trond the car," and she knows what I mean. I can't believe I'm telling you this. But yeah, trond- Sarah Mackenzie (13:47): Okay, but this is not an actual English language word. You made it up- Andrew Peterson (13:50): No. Sarah Mackenzie (13:51): ... to fill in. Andrew Peterson (13:52): Exactly. Trond is a word that just fits for everything. I was like, "Are you tronding today?" Or, "What's the trond happening with the..." It's just like for when you're trying to think of a word that you don't really need the word, everybody knows what you're talking about, trond is this filler word. My hope is that because of all of your astute readers, that they'll begin to use trond as a filler word, and that in 50 years we'll see it in the OED, there it will be. Sarah Mackenzie (14:15): Absolutely. Yes. Andrew Peterson (14:17): There's one addendum to that is the word plotus, P-L-O-T-U-S. You can use trond the plotus. Sometimes they'll be like, "Hey, are we going to trond the plotus later today?" It could mean, "Are we going to go to the store?" Or it could mean, "Are we going to clear the dishes before we watch the movie?" Are we going to trond the plotus?" Plotus can be pluralized to plotie? "Have we tronded the plotie?" It actually made its way into the Wingfeather animated series. There's a scene where Kal is trying to plot with Oskar how to get their parents out of jail. He was like, "Yeah. Remembering that one book where they tronded the plotus?" I slipped that into the Wingfeather series. There you go, that's my... the dumbest [inaudible 00:15:01]- Sarah Mackenzie (15:01): Amazing. I had no idea this is going to open such a can of worms. Amazing. I feel like here's another Tolkien-ish thread because Tolkien liked to make up words. I see. There's more. Andrew Peterson (15:13): His were really cool though. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (15:16): I don't know. Tronding the plotus is pretty amazing, actually. Okay. Let's start talking about your books because we have some questions from a ton of kids who want to know how you got the idea or initial inspiration for On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness. Andrew Peterson (15:35): Sure. There are a lot of ways to answer that question. One of them is the Narnia books. It was reading The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe to my kids when they were little. One of the reasons I love what you guys do is that read alouds were a big part of our family life. I loved to read aloud to my kids. I'll just say this, I was just talking to a dad the other day who was telling me he was reading On the Edge to his kids. I always ask the kids, "Do the parents do good voices? It's important. Are they doing good voices?" (16:05): But anyway, he was telling me that how much they as a family loved to read aloud. I was like, "Just soak it up because there was a last read aloud with our kids," and I didn't know it. You know what I mean? You don't know it when it's happening, but you look back and you're like, "Whoa, we haven't done that because our kids are all grown and married." There was the last book that we read, and it's pretty bittersweet to think about. I'm very grateful to have a granddaughter and look forward to- Sarah Mackenzie (16:31): I was going to say, now you have a whole nother generation coming in. Andrew Peterson (16:32): I was going to say a few years from now, I'm already reading little board books to her. But so reading the Narnia books to the kids when they were old enough was the thing that made me decide to stop talking about writing a novel and really try to do it. I had wanted to write books since I was in high school, and music took over. I tried to write books, but I didn't have the self-discipline or the stamina to keep it up. It wasn't until I had made a few records and had been touring and grew up a little bit and understood that art is work, and that if you want to get to the satisfaction of having written a book you've got to put a lot of work in. Otherwise, you'll just have a bunch of false starts. You'll never have known what it was like to write the end. (17:20): That's the thing that's like it isn't a book until you get to the end. I learned that lesson. It was reading the Narnia books and just wanting to try to craft a story that would get inside the imagination of kids was part of the inspiration. I loved the Harry Potter books. I was reading the Harry Potter books while they were coming out. I got in on it at book three, and so was a part of... I was in line to get book five and six or whatever. I loved the combination of whimsy. Like silly words like Hogwarts and Dumbledore, only it's got this undercurrent of epic stakes and serious story. I really loved that. When I was writing the Wingfeather Saga, I wanted there to be a little bit of the whimsy, but I wanted the reader to sense by the end of book one there's a lot more going on here than just a [inaudible 00:18:17] little kid's story, right? Sarah Mackenzie (18:18): Yes. Andrew Peterson (18:19): I wanted the bottom to drop out and this to be a big epic thing. That was part of the inspiration. Then two more quick things I would say, did you ever listen to A Prairie Home Companion with Garrison Keillor? Do you know what I'm talking about? Sarah Mackenzie (18:32): No, I never did. Andrew Peterson (18:33): Okay. It was great. We used to listen to it on the road. Every week he would tell a story, the News from Lake Wobegon. Some of the parents out there may remember this, but it's this radio show, and he had this fictional town in Minnesota. He would, every week on his radio show, make up a 10-minute story about something that happened in the town. One of those stories was called The Royal Family. He imagined in this Minnesota town that there was this single mom where her kids, and she was poor. (19:05): One day she gets a letter in the mail that the father of her children was the heir to the Scottish throne, but they couldn't tell anyone because they needed to be very careful with the politics. He was like, "We need to reveal this at the right moment, who the King of Scotland it really is. Who knew that it was one of these kids growing up in Lake Wobegon, Minnesota?" I heard that story. In that story, there was something really cool about... I'm trying not to spoil anything here. Something really cool about the way the kids carried themselves differently once they knew the truth. (19:43): I thought, what if there was a family where the kids came to discover that they weren't who they thought they were and that there was more going on around them than there was? That was it. Then the third thing I would say is the Bible, honestly. I don't mean that in a... I guess I could mean it in a Sunday school way, but I didn't grow up with a classical education at all. I was not a super great student. I love to read, but my head was in the clouds and I was always looking out the window. But when I was reading about C.S. Lewis and Tolkien and some of the inklings and writers that we love who grew up a hundred years ago. Who grew up and they were classically educated, so they were reading the Iliad and they're reading whatever, all the stuff, all the really great [inaudible 00:20:28]- Sarah Mackenzie (20:28): Not The Baby-Sitters Club, which was what I was reading. Andrew Peterson (20:30): Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I was a little jealous when I was listening to, them reading about them, and how much those stories informed their writing. But then I realized that because I grew up in the church, I did have another piece of classical literature that I was always reading as a kid. Sarah Mackenzie (20:48): Yes. Yes. Andrew Peterson (20:48): Epic stories, ancient literature, poetry, high adventure prophecy. I had to change my thinking and realize that whether you're a Christian or not, the Bible is this incredible work of literature. Those stories were undeniably a big influence on the Wingfeather Saga. Sarah Mackenzie (21:08): Yeah. You just mentioned that you were not a great student. I was just at a conference this last weekend where somebody asked, during one of my sessions, a question that made me remember the story that I've heard you say. I can't remember if you told me over dinner or something, or if I heard you say it at something else. I don't know. About how you know that your mom was really worried about you. You had overheard a phone conversation where she was worried about you always fiddling around on your guitar or something. Andrew Peterson (21:35): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (21:35): I just think to myself as parents, I know there's lots of parents watching today, we have this really strong desire and drive to make sure our kids are prepared for what they need, but actually only God knows what they need for their next stage. I don't know. That image always comes to mind for me because of course, the lives that you impact and change and transform actually through your writing and your music probably required all of that fiddling around on your guitar. Andrew Peterson (22:05): Yeah. I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. I remember it was a letter that I found after I was [inaudible 00:22:10]- Sarah Mackenzie (22:10): Okay. Okay. I changed it. It was [inaudible 00:22:12]- Andrew Peterson (22:13): My mom was writing to my brother when he was a Marine, and she said, "Yeah. I'm worried about Andrew, that he's going to turn out to be a do flunky just like his cousin." I asked my mom, I was like, "First of all, what's a do flunky? I've never heard this word before." Sarah Mackenzie (22:25): It's related to a plotus. Andrew Peterson (22:26): Yeah. Exactly. She was making up words too. I was like, "What did you mean by that?" She was like, "Well, you weren't studying or anything. You were just playing your guitar and drawing your pictures and writing your stories and stuff." It was like, "I get it," but once I became a follower of Jesus, those things suddenly took on life. They were something that I was like, "There's a purpose and there's this meaning. I want to use those things for something other than my own self." (22:55): That put gas in the engine and made me really, really want to do it. But yeah, all that stuff that seems like a waste of time can end up being... Maybe it's a gift. It also can be a waste of time, but we don't know that. You can't know. Our approach was always to just fan the flame of the interest and to speak into the gifting as we saw it. If we saw a gifting in our kid, we would lean in and name it and say, "Do you know that you're really good at this thing?" Because a lot of times we don't know. We're too close to the painting to see what it is, so we can't... We don't know our own gifting very well, so we need our community to help us see it. Sarah Mackenzie (23:36): A bazillion kids, approximately, want to know how long it took for you to write On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness. Do you remember? Andrew Peterson (23:45): Yeah. From the time I sat down and really started writing in earnest until the time I went to Barnes and Noble and saw it on the shelf was five years. Sarah Mackenzie (23:55): Okay. Andrew Peterson (23:56): Yeah. It was about five years. That meant... That took the longest to write. Book one took the longest to write because it was my first novel. There's a lot to learn in the process of writing and went through many edits and a lot of world building. A lot of maps were drawn. A lot of back histories were written. A lot of paring away to figure out what the story really was. Then my editor just tore it up when I sent it to her, and I'm so grateful that she did. Sarah Mackenzie (24:28): As the best editors usually do, right? Andrew Peterson (24:31): Yeah. It hurt bad for the first 10 pages. After that, I loved it. I was like, "Please keep helping me grow as a writer. Keep helping this book get better," because way more important than my feelings is the thing that we're making. Lots of edits. Then, of course, it took a long time to get it copyedited. There's a long process, but I was noodling with it a lot for about five years. Sarah Mackenzie (24:54): Okay. Betty, who's 11, wants to know which book in the series was the most fun to write? Andrew Peterson (25:01): Book three was the most fun to write. Book one was very difficult because it was my first. Book two was very difficult... You have to remember, I was touring constantly as a musician while I was writing these books. It was two full-time jobs at once, and so I was writing chapters on the tour bus before sound check. Then doing the whole concert, and then coming back on and staying up to finish writing that chapter. Just under a lot of pressure because- Sarah Mackenzie (25:30): And you're a father [inaudible 00:25:32] you're touring, but and you're- Andrew Peterson (25:35): Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (25:35): Yeah. Yeah. There's all that. Andrew Peterson (25:35): For sure. It was tied in together because part of that motivation was, well, there's a mortgage to pay and diapers and all that stuff, so it's trying to make this thing work. Book two was written in about a year and a half because there was no time. It was just my publisher was like, "We got to get book two out soon," and so I had to write that. That one was written frantically. I think you can tell when you're reading the book, those of you who have read book two. (26:01): Book two is basically one long chase scene. It's like it comes out of the gate, and they're on the run the whole time. By the time I got to book three, and I'm not going to spoil anything, the family has found a place where they think they're going to find some real peace. I just got to let them be still for a little while and explore this new, new place where they found themselves with the Durgan Guild and the schooling and the green hollows and stuff. It was really fun. I just loved getting to know them better in that world. Yeah, book three was my... But book four is my favorite of the books, but that one [inaudible 00:26:37]- Sarah Mackenzie (26:37): Yeah. Book four is my favorite just because of what it is. But I think I hear most often from young readers... I know my daughter, I know one of our team members will say book three is their favorite. I think that's so interesting that also you were having the most fun writing it. I wonder, there's got to be [inaudible 00:26:52]- Andrew Peterson (26:51): Yeah. Yeah. It could be. Sarah Mackenzie (26:53): Wyatt, who's eight, and Tali, who's also eight, they want to know what was the hardest part of writing On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness? Andrew Peterson (27:04): The most difficult part of writing On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness? It was similar to the animated series. The first book of a series that's set in a new world, it's really hard to know how to gracefully convey to the reader... How to know how much the reader needs to know. I was drawing toothy cows and horned hounds and had maps and had all the funny names and all that stuff, but a lot of the world building that you do doesn't need to show up exactly in the story. It's for you to know. (27:37): The example I always use when I talk to students about this is that it was early on in the book, maybe chapter two or three, where I went, well, when the kids are going to the Dragon Day Festival at the beginning of On the Edge, and I realized that I didn't know how they were supposed to pay for their blueberry gooey balls or whatever. I was like, "Money. How does money work in Aerwiar?" I had to figure out, do they use coins or jewels or beads? How do you pay for stuff? Not knowing what kind of coins... If they are coins, then that means that there's a coin press somewhere, which makes you go, "Okay, what technology do they have access to?" (28:20): I remember Jonathan Rogers, who wrote the Wilderking, he was one of the early readers of it. There's a scene where Janner strikes a match, and he wrote a little note in the Margin that said, "Do they have gunpowder? Because the same stuff that they used for matches is what they would've used to shoot..." I was like, "Oh," so that raises all these questions of I don't want there to be guns in the Wingfeather world, but I do want there to be matches. How does that work? Those are just examples of all of the little picky little things that you have to know going into the story. Then you have to decide how much of this does the reader need to know, and how much do they just intuit? You know what I mean? Sarah Mackenzie (29:01): Yeah. Andrew Peterson (29:01): But you as the author need to know those answers. That was very difficult. Once you've finished building the world and you've got the characters developed, and you've got that first book out of the way, book two felt like a party because I wasn't having to think about world building. I was just having to think about storytelling. Sarah Mackenzie (29:16): Jonathan Rogers, who you just mentioned, kids, I just want to put a bug in your ear that we are reading The Bark of the Bog Owl and his whole Wilderking trilogy this coming winter in RAR Premium. Andrew Peterson (29:27): Awesome. Sarah Mackenzie (29:28): You have that to look forward to because they just- Andrew Peterson (29:29): Those are fun books. Sarah Mackenzie (29:30): ... came out with new covers. This ties into a question from a lot of our young aspiring authors who are here who want to know what should you consider when creating a world for your story? Do you begin with the world-building? Do you work from outlines? In the case of the match, it's like you figure it out as you go along because something comes up. Tell me a little more about that? Andrew Peterson (29:50): Yeah. I think that, yes, it doesn't hurt to have a little bit of an idea of the story you want to tell, but you're going to run into problems quickly if you haven't built the world first if you're writing fantasy. Just like if you were writing a historical fiction set during the Civil War, you need to know about how people lived back then in order to write anything. You have to do your research. With a fantasy novel, "research," is world building. I think that is very important, in my opinion, to start with a map and fill in all the rivers and geographical features. (30:24): Then name cities. Then begin to populate those forests with creatures and figure out... In one of the writing workshops I did years ago, I was trying to get the young people to... Trying to get their imaginations to broaden a little bit about what it means to write fantasy. I was just like, "Okay. If it's a fantasy world and you're the author, you get to decide everything. You get to decide all the rules." The kids... We had a whiteboard and we were trying to figure out, okay, what are the rules in this world? By the end of it, we had come up with a planet that takes 1000 years to rotate so that it's 10 generations or however many generations of people before a night comes. Sarah Mackenzie (31:09): Wow. Andrew Peterson (31:11): The idea of there being this 1000-year night that some people have survived that they've only heard rumors about, things like that. You get to decide all of that stuff. A day doesn't have to be the same as a day in our world, which drifts into sci-fi a little bit. But the point is, it was that feeling of freedom of, well, I can give the cows fangs, I can make them carnivores in my world, was really fun, and I think it's really important to do that work. Then the story grows out of that. I was saying earlier about reading the Bible, it was every time I had some revelation like, "You start with a map, and then the characters grow out of the map, like flowers in a garden." Then you read Genesis, and it starts with a map. It starts with- Sarah Mackenzie (31:56): That's right. Yes. Andrew Peterson (31:58): ... continents and a garden. Then, well, why don't we put a person here? Let's see what happens when we put these two... What happens when we put some conflict into this story and it unfolds? Sarah Mackenzie (32:06): Yes. Andrew Peterson (32:09): There's a lot to be learned from the original sources. Sarah Mackenzie (32:11): Amazing. Okay. Let's see. Let's look at some more questions from the kids. This is a popular question. I don't know if you're going to be able to answer it, especially since you told us a little bit about how you came up with the kids' names, but do you have a favorite character from the book? Andrew Peterson (32:26): I don't have a favorite character. It depends on what I have for breakfast. It changes all the time. It's funny because the animated series has gotten muddled in my mind. They're all living in the same world, and to have been a part of the show means that I get to help make the characters in the show like I imagine them in the books. They've all morphed into one thing, but Peet the Sock Man consistently comes to mind as a character that I guess I'm proud of. I don't know. I really like the complexity of his character. When I first wrote the character, I didn't know why he had socks on his hands. I was- Sarah Mackenzie (33:09): Okay. You had to discover that yourself. Andrew Peterson (33:12): Yeah. I just literally wrote down Peet the Sock Man because I thought that was a funny name for a character, and then had to do the, "research," and build the world a little bit and figure out... Okay. Anytime you're writing a fantasy like that, start with the whimsy, start with something fun. Let your imagination play. Then after you've said, "Okay. His name is going to be Peet the Sock Man," then figure out why. Sarah Mackenzie (33:35): Okay. Andrew Peterson (33:35): Same thing happened with Gnag the Nameless, the big villain. I was like, "Okay. Gnag the Nameless is a pretty funny name for a villain." Sarah Mackenzie (33:40): It's so funny. It's a really funny name. Andrew Peterson (33:43): Yeah. There was a nameless evil who had no name, his name was Gnag the Nameless. I just thought that was funny. But then, of course, you can't just stop there. I wanted the story to feel real, and so I had to write... There's a bunch of documents on my old computer that were the history of Aerwiar, and one of them is Gnag the Nameless. I had to figure out why his name is that, and I don't tell anybody that until the end of book four. Nobody really knows. But Peet the Sock Man was that way, and so once I realized, oh, that's why he's wearing socks on his hands, it opened up his character and a whole bunch of the story. I was able to understand a lot more of what was going on. Sarah Mackenzie (34:24): My favorite character is Oskar Reteep because- Andrew Peterson (34:27): Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for that. Sarah Mackenzie (34:32): Just the absolute best quotes that make me wheeze laughing while I'm reading it aloud, because it's like, "As Oskar Reteep..." Yeah. When he quotes, and they're just like the most benign [inaudible 00:34:46]- Andrew Peterson (34:46): Non sequiturs. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (34:48): So funny. So funny. Andrew Peterson (34:49): Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yes. I have a little too much fun with that. I resisted being his voice in the show, but it's secretly been really fun to do. Yeah. It's pretty fun. Sarah Mackenzie (35:02): Eden is 10, and if you can answer this question without spoiling anything, I think you probably could. We'll see. She wants to know where did the idea of the Black Carriage come from? Andrew Peterson (35:14): I honestly don't remember where the idea for it came from, but I do remember that in the world, I imagine that the Fangs were these terrible occupying evil army that would sometimes stop outside your house and kidnap you. I've since gotten emails from people who live in parts of the world where that actually happens. It has been sobering to realize that there are people who are reading these stories and they're finding resonance with things that I think of as crazy fantasy that actually the world is very broken and these things happen. But yeah, the Black Carriage was a part of the world. (35:50): But I remember my editor said, she was like, "I just feel like we really need to open with some kind of danger to hook the reader." She's like, "What if the first scene was not just Janner doing his chores? What if the first scene was Janner trying to get to sleep because he could hear the carriage?" That led to the poem and led to actually Sara Cobbler. I just picked a random name. Well, you guys don't know Sara Cobbler yet. She shows up later, but her name is mentioned in chapter one. She became one of my favorite characters just because of that idea of, well, let's bring the Black Carriage to the beginning of the story. It also serves a good purpose because it's pretty scary. The Black Carriage, the poem and the idea of it is a scary idea. Sarah Mackenzie (36:30): It is. Yeah. Andrew Peterson (36:30): It's a good way of telling parents, like, "Hey, if this first chapter is not for you, then maybe the kids need to grow up a little bit before you read [inaudible 00:36:37] books." Sarah Mackenzie (36:38): Yes. It's a good, like, "This is what you're signing up for. You ready? Let's go." Sara, who's 17, asks if you had a message that you hope people get from reading the series or not? Andrew Peterson (36:51): It's a good question. I don't have a message that I want people to get from it. I have hopes that God will use the story in certain ways, but I wouldn't call it a message. Does that make sense? Sarah Mackenzie (37:03): Yeah. Andrew Peterson (37:03): I'm not trying to be evasive. One of the cool things about art is that it does more than you think it can, even as the artist. Whether it's you're writing songs or books that I think that it can hobble the story a little bit if you put too much of your own expectation on what the thing is supposed to do. My job as an author and as a songwriter is to try to tell the truth as beautifully as I can, and then release it to the world with high hopes about what the Lord is going to do with it and what it might do in the heart of the reader. But as soon as I start defining what that is, then I'm just signing up for trouble. Sarah Mackenzie (37:40): Yes. Andrew Peterson (37:41): That's the thing is you want to participate with God in the making of the thing. He invites us into this process, which is a great privilege. But then as Flannery O'Connor said something about how, "Once I've written my story and it goes out into the world, what it does is God's business and not mine." She was pretty hardcore. I love that about her, but I do get that idea. I think that... I would hope that my books pique an ache, and because the best art that I've encountered does that for me, it stirs an ache and a longing in me. Then the amazing thing is to sit back and watch what God does with that longing. Sarah Mackenzie (38:23): Yeah. In ways probably you can't even imagine. You said that before that you are surprised sometimes when people tell you about the impact your book had on them. Andrew Peterson (38:33): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (38:33): If you are trying to wrap it up in a message, you'd probably actually keep it from being able to reach people in all the different ways it needs to. I don't know. Andrew Peterson (38:41): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you sit down to write your story and you're thinking here is the message I want to convey, it's going to make it really difficult. It might make the story harder to read. Instead, sit down and ask yourself, "How can I tell the very best story I can tell and let the story do its thing and trust that it's going to do what it needs to do in the reader?" Sarah Mackenzie (39:04): Especially when you have yourself, like you were talking about how you were formed by scripture, and all these young writers who are here with us today are formed likely by scripture and by classic stories like Narnia, like The Lord of the Rings, or The Hobbit, the Wingfeather Saga. You have all of these epic tales that are true and hopeful inside of you, and those cannot help but come out in your storytelling. Andrew Peterson (39:28): Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're a student of storytelling and become a student of how stories work and what they're doing, not so that you can cage the animal but so that you can unlock the cage. You know what I mean? Sarah Mackenzie (39:43): Yeah. That's so good. Yes. Andrew Peterson (39:45): You don't want to trap it and say, "Here's what I want the story to do." You want to say, "I'm going to make a story and then just set it loose on the world and let it become this amazing thing." That doesn't mean that you don't get to bring what you believe to the story. There are certain things that show up in the books, in book two, there's a moment where Podo says to the kids, "Don't just follow your heart. Your heart will betray you." (40:07): I put that in there. I was very intent that that made it into the TV show too, because I wanted a counter-narrative to so much of what is out there. There's so many follow your heart stories, and it's like, "Well, that's trouble." There are moments in the story where I tried really hard to let the character be the kind of character who would say that thing. It doesn't mean that you don't get to put what you believe to be true into the story, but you can't get the thing out of order. You got to let the story be the story first. Sarah Mackenzie (40:39): So good. So good. You told us about Narnia, but Lainey, who's seven, Fiona, who's nine, Mary, who's 12, all want to know, are there any books, old stories or fables you grew up reading that inspired or spoke into Wingfeather? Andrew Peterson (40:54): Yes. I loved the book The Black Stallion when I was a kid. I don't know if you ever read The Black Stallion, but it's so good. It's got this big chunk of the book happens in Arabia, and it's this boy and his horse. There's just high adventure, sand dunes and the whole thing. I loved that book, and I loved Lloyd Alexander's the Prydain Chronicles. Sarah Mackenzie (41:19): Yeah. Andrew Peterson (41:19): You remember those? And he- Sarah Mackenzie (41:19): I never read them, but my Allison, who is the one who loves your book so much that you would name them as one of favorites. Andrew Peterson (41:27): They're so good. They're so good. Yeah, yeah. They do that thing where it starts off as a fun little adventure fantasy story that ends up by the end to having these big epic stakes. I just remember vividly reading the fifth book and the Prydain Chronicles as a boy and burning through it. My eyes were all dry from just I couldn't stop reading. I'm trying to think what else. I didn't read Lord of the Rings until I was in high school, and in between, it was just a bunch of mostly empty fantasy. I just burned... Anything with a dragon in it and a sword, I was burning through it, reading it. It wasn't until I got a little older that I began to realize how much I was missing in literature. Sarah Mackenzie (42:10): Yes. Yes. Andrew Peterson (42:12): I remember sitting in my senior English class, and we were reading The Old Man and the Sea, which is an amazing story. An amazing story. Sarah Mackenzie (42:22): But not for a high schooler, probably. Andrew Peterson (42:23): Maybe not. Right. But I remember there's all this symbolism in that book. At the end of that book, the old man is carrying the mast of the ship on his shoulder, and it's a pretty... Now I see obvious symbol of someone carrying their cross. There's all these ways to read into the literary... The depth of this book. I remember being in high school being like, "That is so dumb." Raising my hand and just thinking there's no way that could represent a person carrying his cross. It's a mast on a ship. But just being this smart aleck who didn't really get what was going on. Now that I'm older, I realized that I've missed out on a lot of great literature. I've gone back and tried to read some of the fantasy I loved when I was a kid, and I've lost my taste for it, which is part of why I wanted to write the Wingfeather books is because I wanted to add to the kind of fantasy that I missed. You know what I mean? Sarah Mackenzie (43:23): Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Peterson (43:23): There's got to be more to it than just dragons and swords. There's got to be good sentences, right? Sarah Mackenzie (43:30): Yeah. Yes. Totally. Andrew Peterson (43:34): [inaudible 00:43:31] beautiful and... I just remembered another book, The Eagle of the Ninth. Have you heard of this book by Rosemary Sutcliff? Sarah Mackenzie (43:39): Yes, but I have not read anything by her, actually. Andrew Peterson (43:42): I just read it a few years ago because a friend of mine and I walked Hadrian's Wall in England, and the book is set in Roman England 2000 years ago. It was a wonderful book. That kind of stuff, I missed it because if it didn't have a dragon I wasn't interested. But I was like, "Man, there's so many good things out there to read." Sarah Mackenzie (44:04): Okay. Which character is most like you? That's what a lot of kids want to know. Andrew Peterson (44:10): Wow. There's little bits of me in all of them, even in Gnag the Nameless, but I think I identify a lot with Janner and his selfishness. Sorry. That's a spoiler. But I didn't realize until I got to the end of book four... I don't think I realized. I didn't really realize to the gravity that it shows itself to be [inaudible 00:44:36]- Sarah Mackenzie (44:35): I don't think that's a spoiler, because I don't think we'll know... We don't know the depth of it until we keep reading. Andrew Peterson (44:41): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Janner's central flaw I think is selfishness. Sarah Mackenzie (44:47): Okay. Andrew Peterson (44:47): When I got to the end of book four, I realized that. I was like, "Wow. That explains his decision making along the way." Sarah Mackenzie (44:54): Yeah. It does. Yeah. Andrew Peterson (44:56): It also explains how he needs to overcome that in his story. I do feel a lot of that. I've had to fight that from the time I was little, I think, just realizing there's a lot more going on than just what's going on in here. I think I resonate with Janner. But all of them, I could say something like that about all. Sarah Mackenzie (45:18): Okay. I know we're down to minutes, so I'm going to ask you a couple super speedy ones. One is from Zoe, who's 10, Judah, who's nine, Marie, who's 11. They want to know what you enjoy writing more, books or songs? Andrew Peterson (45:31): Books. Yeah. I really love songwriting, but books, I like feeling like a kid. Sarah Mackenzie (45:38): Yeah. Do you have a favorite song that you've written? That's what Jack wants to know. Andrew Peterson (45:43): Yeah. Thanks, Jack. If I had to name one, I would say a song called Don't You Want To Thank Someone, which is on- Sarah Mackenzie (45:49): I love that song. Yes. Andrew Peterson (45:52): Thank you. Thank you. I love to sing that. Sarah Mackenzie (45:54): My favorite is Is He Worthy? That's my favorite, but that one's the one that I play on replay. It's like... If I tell Spotify, "Play Andrew Peterson," it plays it first because it knows that's the one I want to hear. Andrew Peterson (46:03): Amazing. Thank you. Sarah Mackenzie (46:05): I do tell my phone to play that a lot. Let's see. Okay. Last question, and then I want to ask you really briefly about the animated series. This comes from Levi, who's 10, Emeline, who's 12, and Abigail, who's 14. They want to know if you're working on a new book right now, or do you have any plans to in the future? Is there anything you can tell us about projects? Andrew Peterson (46:26): Yes. I am three years late on a new book. That is back during COVID, I signed a two book deal with B&H to write one memoir and one young adult adventure story that was just not a Wingfeather book, but just a standalone young adult story. I said, "Yes," because I couldn't tour during COVID. I was stuck at home. I was like, "I guess I better have some work," I signed this deal and I wrote The God of the Garden was the memoir. Then by the time I finished God of the Garden, the world opened back up. I was back out on the road and the Wingfeather TV show took off. All these things got busy, and I'm three years late on turning in this other book. I have started it, and I'm hoping to make some real headway this summer. Sarah Mackenzie (47:12): We cannot wait. Right, kids? I think I can speak for all of us. Andrew Peterson (47:15): But I love Kate DiCamillo and Katherine Paterson and those Bridge to Terabithia type stories. I'm going to try to write something along those lines, but I might actually just fail at it and write something with dragons and swords. I'm not sure yet. Sarah Mackenzie (47:31): We'll see what it decides to be. Andrew Peterson (47:32): We'll see what happens. Sarah Mackenzie (47:32): Yeah. The Wingfeather Saga has been turned into an animated series. You've had a very close hand in all of the making of that, I believe. Remind me where we can watch that? Where kids can watch that right now? Andrew Peterson (47:45): If you go to angel.com. Angel Studios. Sarah Mackenzie (47:49): Okay. Andrew Peterson (47:49): Season one, I'm pretty sure you can watch for free. Season two, if you're a guild member, if you join their website, you can watch it. It'll be free later. But yeah, then season three is on hold while we gather funding, but it is just the coolest thing. I can't even believe it. We've got the most amazing team. Our director left Pixar to come work with us, and Chris Wall was a DreamWorks, he's the show runner. I get to be involved in it. Just these amazing, amazing team of people making this show. They love the story. I wish you could see Chris's personal copy of the Wingfeather Saga, all four books that have 1000 little tags and notes written. It is like the handbook that the team is using to make these stories because they really want the series to be true to the spirit of the book. It's been a great joy to do, and it's going to be seven seasons, Lord willing. We're in it for the long haul. It's pretty great. I get to do Oskar Noss Reteep and occasionally a Fang of Dang, so it's pretty fun. Sarah Mackenzie (48:55): I love it so much. What a treat really for the animation team to love your story as much as you do because then you feel like it's in good hands I'm sure. Andrew Peterson (49:03): It is definitely in good hands. It's really amazing. The cast is amazing too. Like Billy Boyd who played Pippin in The Lord of the Rings movies. He's the overseer in book two. There's all these big name actors that are... If you had told 20 years ago Andrew that these people were going to be acting and saying these lines. The crazy thing is I find myself sometimes in the studio correcting them, and I'm being like, "Yeah. Deliver the line like this." I think I cannot [inaudible 00:49:35]- Sarah Mackenzie (49:35): This is how you should say, "Trond the plotus," for example. Andrew Peterson (49:41): Yes. Exactly. It's just this crazy, crazy experience that I... The book one and season one [inaudible 00:49:47] line up, and season two is half of book two. It's broken up like that. But yeah, we love getting to do that. [inaudible 00:49:56]- Sarah Mackenzie (49:56): Andrew, we're so excited to read this book and all the books, to really dive into Wingfeather or to go back into Wingfeather if we've read it before. Thank you so much for taking the time to kick off our summer with us, to chat with us. We just love the work you're doing and we're grateful for it. Thank you. Andrew Peterson (50:12): Thank you so much. You guys are amazing. I'm blown away by the comments. I'm trying to read them as they go by, so just thank you everybody. I can't tell you what a dream come true it is to have written a book that has resonated with you, and so I love it. It's one of the greatest things in my life. I can't believe it. Can I just say to you, thank you for what you do. It really is. I've just been such a big fan of Read-Aloud Revival over the years and cheering you on from afar. I know we don't get to talk all the time, but I just think it's marvelous, so- Sarah Mackenzie (50:40): Thank you so much. Andrew Peterson (50:41): Thanks [inaudible 00:50:41] me a little part of it. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (50:42): Thank you so much. Pretty fabulous, right? Listen, every single month, all year long, kids at RAR Premium get to meet authors and illustrators just like this in Zoom. You can be a part of it. When kids meet their favorite authors and illustrators like this, and they get to ask their questions, they begin to see them and their books in a new way. You'll notice your kids will see other books by that author or illustrator at the library or at the bookstore. They'll feel like, "I know him," or, "I know her," right? It just enriches your family's love of reading and love of books in such a profound way. You can join us in RAR Premium anytime. To get in on the fun, go to rarpremium.com. Now let's hear from RAR kids about the books they're loving lately. Samuel (51:39): Hello, my name is Samuel. I'm from Maryland. My age is 11, and I like The Inheritance Cycle because it is a good fiction. Addie (51:47): My name is Addie, and I'm eight years old. I live in Arizona, and the book I would recommend is The Wingfeather Saga because it's so adventurous and surprising. Stella (51:57): My name is Stella, and I'm six years old. I live in Arizona. My favorite book is Home in the Woods because it's full of Adventure, and I like adventure. Sarah Mackenzie (52:11): What's your name? Clint (52:11): Clint. Sarah Mackenzie (52:11): Where do you live? Clint (52:11): Washington State. Sarah Mackenzie (52:17): What book do you recommend? Clint (52:19): My Bible. Sarah Mackenzie (52:20): Why do you like it? Clint (52:22): Because it's all about Jesus. Sarah Mackenzie (52:25): What's your name? Speaker 9 (52:25): [inaudible 00:52:27]- Sarah Mackenzie (52:25): Where do you live? Speaker 9 (52:25): [inaudible 00:52:29]- Sarah Mackenzie (52:30): What book do you recommend? Speaker 9 (52:35): Lord is My Shepherd. Sarah Mackenzie (52:35): The Lord is My Shepherd? Speaker 9 (52:36): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (52:36): Why do you like it? Speaker 9 (52:50): Because I love it so much. Sarah Mackenzie (52:50): What's your name? Amber (52:50): My name is Amber. Sarah Mackenzie (52:50): Where do you live? Amber (52:50): In Washington State. Sarah Mackenzie (52:51): What book do you recommend? Amber (52:51): Pippi Longstocking. Sarah Mackenzie (52:51): Why do you like it? Amber (52:52): Because Pippi is really adventurous. Millie (53:01): Hi, my name's Millie. I'm six years old. I live in Lubbock, Texas. My favorite book is Matilda because she gets to live with Miss Honey. May (53:19): Hello, my name is May, and I'm 4-year-old. I live in Lubbock, Texas. My favorite book is Snow White because after she died the prince [inaudible 00:53:30] and kissed her. Kenley (53:42): Hi, my name is Kenley. I'm nine years old and I live in Norman, Oklahoma. I'm obsessed with every Green Ember and Wingfeather Saga book. I love how creative they are and how they help me use my imagination. I love all the surprises in them and how they both have happy and sad moments. Thank you, S. D. Smith and Andrew Peterson. Keep writing. Sarah Mackenzie (54:16): Thank you. Thank you, kids. Show notes for this episode are at readaloudrevival.com/wingfeather. I'll be back in two weeks with another episode. In the meantime, you know what to do. Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.