Welcome to reteach a place where professors know that student equity gaps can be closed and are willing to put in the work to figure it out. We had dedicated to our teaching and our students. We are passionate about improving our classrooms and our communities. We can make a difference. We will make a difference. I am your host, Bruce Hoskins, and my mind and heart are ready to learn party folks.
So look, I'm gonna try my best to not be disrespectful in this space because I know that, you know, it's like there are certain things that are triggering to the folks who do student equity work. And I'm saying this with the utmost love and respect. I need y'all to understand that we're going to be honest in this space. We're going to be honest and sincere. And so I need you to understand that , that when I say
triggering, I really mean triggering as . So. So we're going to talk more about , uh, what we can do in a class. We're always going to talk about what we can do in the classroom here, right? And one of the things in regards to student equity that a lot of people want when we bring this up, they, there's this, this ubiquitous line that comes out of , of of spaces. I don't want to call the space out cause I, cause it comes in from different spaces.
It's not always white, it's not always male , it's not always whatever. But there's surely this line , uh, in the way that people think about student equity and that they don't feel like there's anything they need to do because here's the line, I treat everyone equally in my classroom and my question is, so that's triggering to me whenever I hear that it literally sets off alarm bells in my head. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful for the person. Right . I need you to understand this.
I am really truly not trying to be disrespectful to the person that's seeing this. What my question is is that, is that true? Like, cause you know, it's, to me it falls into the same kind of category as when people talk about race relations and then they say that I'm colorblind and I'm like, Yo, that's really triggering for me because quite honestly saying that you're colorblind is actually a very racist statement to make.
And I will explain that briefly because that's not the main space that we want to be in. But I really want us to explain that to say the reason why is not it could be it is racist to stay at your colorblind is because you're automatically saying that there's something wrong with my color that you need to be blind to in order to accept me as who I am. And with respect, one, there's nothing wrong with my color too. If you are truly color blind , you actually always see things in black and white.
Therefore to me, that's the very essence of the problem. And like I said, this is a very triggering thing. It's sold to the person who says things like, well, I treat everyone in the same in my classroom. This is actually happened , um , in a workshop that we had talking about student equity and we were trying to, you know, talk about how we can address a specifically, this was in talking about black , uh, black and brown students.
And , um, and uh, you know, the one of my colleagues said, hey, you know what? I really don't worry about this because I treat everyone equally in the classroom. And , um, and I think that, I don't, I don't necessarily think that people really are thinking through that space in regards to what does it mean to treat everyone equally in a classroom versus understanding that, that students have different needs and whatnot or so.
And so I get it, especially when you start thinking about it and you start thinking of how overwhelming that can be to think about how each student has different learning needs and , um, and whatnot in order to feel comfortable and safe and ready to learn in the space that you're in.
But it's really something that, you know, is , it's has been something that's been heavy on my heart for a long time and I really want to take this opportunity, which Sean , by the way, who was here again, I went all in like that and it was like, you might not, you might have heard him in the background and whatnot. And so Sean Davis , heavy show contributor in the space.
And um, just talk about what does it mean to be equal to everyone and what does that set off in your mind, if anything or, or maybe you interpret it very differently than I do. Yeah, I've definitely heard that a lot. And I want to go back to this idea of colorblindness because when somebody says that they are colorblind, I think what they're really saying is I'm uncomfortable talking about race. I think that's what is actually being communicated because it's not that they're colorblind.
I've heard people say that I treat people based on their character, right. Instead of the race, or I don't even see that. Or if I say, Hey, do you know Bruce? And they're like, whoa. Which Bruce and I say black bruise , they get uncomfortable. They're like, oh, well, yeah, but I don't really refer to him like that. I'm like, he knows he's black. It's fine. I know what I'm blunt blind for a long time folks. Yes, you're right .
So I think what they're trying to say is they're uncomfortable addressing race, which were, a lot of people are socialized not to talk about race or that's rude or that's racist itself is talking about race and so they want to avoid that. But I know that you're not colorblind. Um , and I know that because the same people who make that claim about themselves will will then ask me, what are you, because I'm very , you know, racially and ethnically ambiguous.
When you look at me, my name is Shawn Davis . You probably hear my voice and you'd probably expect a very different person if you didn't know me already, you would expect a different
person to show up. And I talk about that with my students. I say, when you saw Sean Davis and our enrollment management system and you signed up for the class, were you expecting this guy to walk through the door? And they all say, no, they're all, I've got older white guy, I've got older black guy, but they weren't expecting a half Filipino, half white, mid thirties man to walk through the door and teach this class right with the name Sean Davis .
So I don't buy the colorblindness thing, but I think that people really believe that just in the same way that people believe that they treat everyone equally in the classroom. And I think that again, like colorblindness, not wanting to talk about race. When you say you treat everyone equal in the classroom or you treat everyone the same as the way I've heard it, mostly you are really saying, I don't want to look at how I may be treating people differently based on their identity.
And that's a hard thing to deal with and we're just barely cracking the surface of looking at our data per class. And it's a scary thing. We've had this conversation where it's like very revealing and you may find things that make you feel shame and make you feel like I am not serving all students. I am tailoring my lesson plan in my content and my assessment to a particular population and a particular audience. And that could be a very painful thing to realize.
And so I understand the apprehension with that, but it's necessary just as it's necessary for us to fix any kind of disparities that exist in wider society in regards to race and ethnicity to say we are not color blind and we never have been and we never will be. So how can we work from there?
Right. No absolute bro. Like when you're as talking about this, it is absolutely tripping me out just to connections and look, if we wind up staying in this space, this just the space we're gonna wind up staying in of just talking about , um, like the idea of being color blind and just, you know, cause that's, you know what, cause that's actually where that statement is kind of coming from. Right? It's like to say I treat everyone the same and whatnot.
I just say I'm colorblind in regards to my approach. And it's like, is that actually true? And look, this is real for me as
when people [inaudible]
when I started talking about race and they say [inaudible] or if I say, hey, you know what that was actually like a low key racist term with or you know, racist statement, which whenever I say low key racist statement or kind of racist always really mean that was really racist for you to say that. That's what , that's what I'm giving y'all some decoding right now. Um , and whatnot , but deal is, is that, that's just as offensive to me.
Like to say I treat all students the same as justice as is , is as offensive to me as when I say someone that's like low key racist and then they go, but I got a black friend or my daughter in law is black or you know, I'm of course I focused on black on black and you just going to have to deal with that folks. Um, but for real. So that's the trigger in me because here's he hitting, here's the deal.
I want to explain to you why, like I'm not just going to drop that, I'm going to explain to you why it's because it's an authentic, it's an authentic for you to say that. That to me it's like it rings in a hollow space. Oh , I teach, you know, my students are the according to their character.
And it's like, well, you know that by the time the student, when they walk in and they sit down, we have already done some assessments in our head and some judgements and things that are , uh , you know, if we're honest, if we're honest, we'll admit to that. And if we're honest, we can also try to do things about that if we, you know , find ourselves in those spaces. And they've certainly judged you already. Oh yeah. And that's easy to identify, right? Because you see them looking at you,
you're like, okay , I think this person thinks this of me. Right. And that's another sociological concept is, you know, Cooley's looking glass self, right? We have this idea of how other people are looking at us and they're like mirrors to us, right? We look at them and they reflect back to us what we think they're thinking about us. That may or may not be accurate. Right? Right. But we still develop a feeling based on it and it could shape our subsequent interactions with that individual.
And so the other line that I hear all the time is I'm not racist. Right? Those three words are really powerful because when you say I'm not racist, which are really, again, my interpretation of that statement is I have nothing to learn here. Oh, I'm not, I'm not willing to grow. I am not racist. So why, tell me more about race. Why? Tell me more about disproportionate impact. Why?
Tell me more about strategies that I can use or groups that I could be a part of to learn more about racial and ethnic identities when I'm not racist. I've made it and I think any good educator, and I think many of our colleagues really emphasize lifelong learning towards students. You're never done whatever field you're in. It's constantly evolving. You've got to keep on top of it.
It is part of our professional development that you have to stay current in your discipline and stay current in your teaching. Staying current means you can't say I'm not racist, I stay in current means. You can't say I've made it. You must continue the journey. You can hit mile markers and that's good and you can fall back. But to say that I'm, there is a really, I think almost arrogant statement of saying I , I, I'm just not willing to learn more about this.
Yeah. You know, and, and you know, really trying to get to this space of saying, one of the things that I need people to understand when I'm from speaking for my space is that it's this , it came out as , as this idea of being nice is not enough, but like in order to effect student equity, being nice is not enough. And this is what I mean by that. I know that, you know , some of y'all tripping out already.
It's like being nice is not enough because the kind of Nice that you are can actually be really off putting. And really alienating to a whole different cultural group of people that you may not feel comfortable in interacting with and that you've never tried to learn anything about because you already said that you're not racist. You always say that you treat everyone the same and so you don't feel like you need to learn anything in this space.
But the thing is though is that if you invite me to dinner, right? That's a nice thing to do. And you would think that that's enough, right? You would just think that that's enough. If I invite people to dinner, right then I've done my job and that's of how I think a lot of us as professors, as instructors, we think about our classroom. Yo, I invited them to dinner. This should be good enough. Okay. Chick check checklist . And so me, I grew up at best, grew up working poor.
And um, if you set your table up to where you got like seven utensils out there, I'm going to feel more uncomfortable because I don't know why you need more than a knife before and a spoon for any meal. Right? And , and I know you just , you know what I'm saying? It's like, cause I'm going to get confused and that's gonna be already gonna put me into a very different headspace. And all you did was be nice to me. You did something very nice and yet that nice doesn't translate as Nice to me.
Right. And so look, I'm sorry, I'm going to get into this. It's like my wife. Why ? Well, my wife says it was like what? I do something for my wife and she's like, Bruce , that doesn't show me that you love me. And I'm like, but I thought everybody liked flowers and it was like, my wife likes flowers, but she , but she doesn't like them as in regards to like a demonstration of love that doesn't do it for it . And so therefore , um, for me to be responsive to that, right.
To be able to be responsive. Yes, this is, you know , uh, keeping me married and stuff like that. But I'm also thinking about it in the classroom, the saying, it's like, look, is your way of showing your students that you care? Well, I mean, there's a bigger question in there. Do you care in the first place? I'm going to go ahead and assume right now that everybody cares about their students, but, but how do you show it, right?
It's like, so we could have another episode about do you care about your students right now? Let's assume that people care. And it's like, well, how are you caring for them? Right? And so if you're inviting them to dinner, but you got seven utensils out there, can we learn at least a can? Can we just shift our thinking enough, acknowledge that not everybody eats with seven years and understands what several utensils are.
And so how can I adjust my classroom in order to fit the experiences of more students? Right? So that I don't put them in a space where they're already in the , where they're already feeling alienated and alienated and disconnected, not from the content they signed up for the class. And so whatever degree they're there for the content, right?
But is the culture of your class the way that you're running your class, the way that you're a , or maybe maybe a better word is to structuring your class, is that putting people in a space where they're already walking in defensive where they're already, where they're already being triggered by certain things. And so that's something that , um , you know, that I'm thinking about , uh, in that spaces, like that dinner table example, being nice is not necessarily enough.
And can we unpack what Nice means to other folks?
And what if my people eat with their hands? [inaudible] and you got seven utensils out there, but I pick up that piece of chicken. That's right. How are you looking at me now? Right? Like I don't know what I'm doing and if you look at me that way, I might just catch your look and say, I don't know what I'm doing right. And feel that, that, that feeling of I don't belong here. Right. And just like in the classroom, it's like, do this activity. Some people jump right in.
Some people were like, they, they lean, they lean back, right? And they're like, this is not something I jump right into. And what's interesting about privileges , like think about travel, right? It's very privileged. That's to be able to travel is a huge privilege and so when people go and they travel and they, let's say they go to the Philippines where my people are from and there's a meal that is laid out and they say, we eat this with their hands.
If you are a seasoned traveler, if you've grown up with that kind of sensibility and that kind of socialization, you might jump in and eat with your hands because you want to respect them and you want to be part of it and you want to experience that. Exactly. But if you haven't been taught to jump right in, you're not going to jump right in.
If you've been taught to sit back and observe and be respectful that way, maybe that's what you're seeing in the classroom when you're asking someone to engage, but they're sitting back because they're like, I , that's not what I'm supposed to be doing. Let me see what's going on first. And then that could be interpreted by us as disrespectful behavior. Like they don't want to do this, right? And so are you going to treat that student the same? Right?
Are you going to treat them the same and say if you don't engage in the same way as others, your participation points are low. I'm going to be thinking about that as I'm grading your other work, right? All of these different things are happening, but can we step back and realize that they're happening? You know, something that you were talking about just kind of triggered in my, this idea of like when I'm in all white spaces, right?
And when I'm in all white spaces, I am equally as uncomfortable if it's hostile or if it's like really super overly nice. You know what I mean? Like I know exactly if I walk into a space and I know that I don't belong there by the looks on people's faces when they're looking at me, I feel uncomfortable. Certainly who wouldn't? Right?
And , and I tell it to my students like, what if we were in inner city Detroit and you walked into our classroom and we weren't at in Cardiff and everybody was black except for you. Right? That's, that's how the black students feels here at the Carter campus. Right. But the other thing is like when I go into a white space and everybody's so nice and so polite, you know, most people would be like, this is really good. I, I'm uncomfortable because it's like too much.
And to me it doesn't feel authentic. Even if they are, I'm not saying they're not authentic, I'm saying I can't, I'm not used to this. I go and do a space that's all Filipinos. Like we're making fun of each other. You know, we're, we're poking fun and people ask very personal questions that I know in that white space , they're not asking me those questions. And so that's the kind of thing where I'm like, we can't treat everyone the same. It goes to the idea of equity versus equality. Right.
And some people have been beaten over the head with these definitions and some people are just being introduced to them where equity is about fairness and about treating people as they need to be treated and giving them the resources they need to be successful and not in an equal way of just kind of blanketing policies, procedures, assignments, and all of those kinds of things. Right. That that's treating everyone equally.
And I think the golden rule is something so embedded in many cultures and in , in our society as well as this idea of treating others the way you want to be treated. Right. And that may be nice. However, I think something that I take issue with with that rule is I don't want to be treated the way that you're treated or the way that you want to be treated. I want to be treated the way I want to be treated. Right?
And so treating others how they want to be treated takes those extra steps in that extra work of finding out exactly what that is.
Yeah. And you know, and I think that the , the golden rule can be maintained if you understand that treatment is not necessarily like the actual treatment, like to be invited to the dinner table and have the seven utensils. It's to be respected. I want to be respect . It's like if I want to be respected, I'm going to respect you the same way that I want to be respected.
The biggest way for us to demonstrate respect to our students is to learn more about them so that we can interact with them in some genuine, you know, in some genuinely hospitable way versus the way that we've, we're socialized to ourselves and thinking that that's the way that is always
has to be. And one of the biggest things to me is to say like whose , whose responsibility is it to adjust to who? Because if you think about right this, this idea of what we're proud of , what we're presenting right now is to say, Yo, you need to be called , we need to become culturally competent enough to where we can interact with enough people to make as many people as we can comfortable. And then understand that we're always going to fail.
There's always going to be a group that are going to fail. Um, you know, if you're a chef, you can try to figure out a whole bunch of different ways to serve meat. But then you might get vegetarians and you might get vegans. And I was like, look, we got a , we can work some things out, we can get better. Um , but yet at the same time, understand, it's like, I get it. We can't serve everyone.
We can't, you know, it's like I get that, but I don't want anyone to use that as a cop out , to not be responsive and be respectful to our students and to learn more. And so, you know, it's like, so the idea of WHO's supposed to adjust to who, right. And so I will jump in and say that I don't, you know, this idea, you said many different groups and making them comfortable. Right. My thing is I don't want you to be comfortable, but I want to be uncomfortable with you. Right.
And that's where the learning occurs. Because if I'm uncomfortable, I could be really comfortable and I can have a policies written out in my syllabus. I'm going to deliver the lecture the same way every time. You know, all that's going to be really comfortable for me. It would be maddening for me, but like, but that could create a routine, you know? But I think being uncomfortable together and being vulnerable and telling them I'm uncomfortable is the one of the most vital steps to them.
Understanding that you're willing to learn too , and then they're willing to teach you. And then that will help you with those subsequent students that come from similar groups. And then again, not treating everyone the same just because a Pacific islander student comes into your class, they might be Samoan and now you're dealing with someone who is Tongan and you, you know, okay, I under, I have this in my toolbox . Right. You don't though. Right.
And even if they're both Samoan , uh , you know, a Samoan woman versus a Samoan man, man, and maybe from different class backgrounds did, are they first gen or not? Like if there's so much nuance and it's so complicated that treating everybody the same is impossible and we never do it. Nobody treats their professor the way they treat their mother. You don't treat your friends the way that you treat children. Right.
That would be insulting if you talk to your friend, the way that you talk to a toddler. And that's real simple for us to kind of understand and , and maybe too basic, but it's true. We don't treat any two people the same. We have a department of four different sociologists. I don't treat you the way that I treat the other ones. And I know certainly you don't treat me the way that you treat other people in the department. There are things that are standardized for sure. Right?
But there's also, we understand talking to Bruce is a lot different than talking to this colleague. And for me to have authentic interactions with Bruce, I'm not going to treat him like I treat other colleagues and I'm not gonna treat anybody the same. Right . And so why would we do that with our students?
Absolutely. And so, you know, and for me, like I said, who's adjusting to who? Um, cause I wanted to to say, right, it's like, and the past, I'm going to even call it power model, right? It's like it's the students are supposed to adjust to the professor, the students adjusted the professors , the students adjusted the professor. And um, I understand that as at work based model, right?
It's like a working class model is right because you got the boss and then you got the students who are the kids or you know, or who are learning from you are trying to keep their job. And so this becomes a very, to me , um, this functional power display, right? And so that if you though, as the instructor adjust yourself and not, like I said, like you said, not coming from a place of knowing, but from a place of, I wouldn't you even use the word humility that says like, you know what?
We can all be uncomfortable. Let's talk with each other. Let's have genuine conversations that have genuine interactions and we can learn from each other what , what we can do in order to better , uh, to make this class a better experience for you to make me a better teacher. Right. Focus on me. Right. And then, and then w w on the things I need to do in order to make it to, to serve you. Right.
Because that's a , you know, another thing that, you know, and that'll be another episode because we're already running up on time right now , uh , for this one. But to really think of our position as professors and to think of how do we change the dynamic of being a, you know, of teaching and the power dynamics in the room. And so again, coming back and then outroing of like, what can we do have , you know, the idea of we treat everyone the same and whatnot.
What are some practical things that one practical thing that we can do in that space? Um, I'll let you take the, the front on this one this time. So
I'm going to , I'm going to be a little quick with a couple of examples of how we don't treat all the students the same. So, and one of those is dsps accommodations . So disabled students services, right? You wouldn't say I'm going to treat all the students the same if that letter comes across your desk. Right? And W we understand that another one is students may visit our office hours all the time, the same students, right? And they visit all the time.
Some students will never visit our office hours. Right. And do those students sometimes get more opportunities, maybe an internship, maybe a ta ship, maybe you write them a letter of recommendation. I mean we don't write like Retros of letters of recommendation for every student. Cause the students that approach us with that and maybe a stablish, a rapport and a relationship, right? So we don't treat them the same there.
And then what about the student that comes up to you and ask for an extension? Right. And maybe from their background asking for that is something that you do, right? And if you, granted you're not extending that to all the other students, maybe students who were taught don't approach that person about that. Right? And then with that though, maybe you don't and you have a strict policy and you're like, I'm not going to do an extension for this person.
Even if they ask, is that really what you want to do? Right? Is that, are you actually not doing things you want to do in order to uphold policies that don't align with your goals? If your goals are learning, retention and success? Right. And in that, I would say that the one recommendation I have is variety is variety is owning that we don't treat everybody the same.
And so why should we deliver content in the same way and mixing up videos with music and poetry and paintings and other forms of art and other forms that, that communicate the message that we're trying to put across , um, variety in content, right? Variety in assessment. Maybe you, maybe you sell, you have them self assess, maybe you have them assess each other.
Maybe you have a very low stakes quizzes or you have, you know , um , writing as well as multiple choice as well as short answers as well as discussion as well. You know, and variety and activities where they do small groups, they do pairings, the, they do things individually, right?
They, they share out to the whole group, large group discussions, small group discussions, all of these different ways that we can , um, facilitate our classroom and facilitate that experience for them will not just hit a bunch of different learning preferences and show again that you care. But you will constantly engage in this idea of treating situations and people and your own profession as not the same every time. Right .
You know, and um , I'm going gonna say this in regards to practical experience and this is , um, something that , um, really works well for me. I don't know. Let's like, and I want to challenge people to do right. Something that you may not even realize you're not doing and that is making actual eye contact with your students while you're teaching them. And I mean, all the way through the classroom.
I don't mean just the front row students who get this, you know, the , that, that learning arc, right? It's like, oh man , what not. I mean like try to make eye contact with the students even in the back row, which I know a lot of people are actually scared to look at the back row and what they're doing because you're , you're thinking that they're going to be distracted and whatnot and that may hurt your feelings, that they're not paying attention to you or what not .
And uh , for me, I know that , uh, it's as a strategy, it works really well for me to make this eye contact, especially as it pertains to, and I want you to be purposeful. I want everyone to be purposeful about, especially for people of color, namely black and brown students, to make eye contact with them. Because one of the biggest things that we experienced in the education system is not feeling like we're being seen.
Um, and so that's why India Moja program, we have this phrase called Saba Bona . I see you, I see you. And making eye contact and be able to hold it. Don't be creepy with it. Of course, you know , whatever. Right. But for real, to be able to hold eye contact with someone and talk to them. Right. And make sure that you're looking at being purposeful, being purposeful about who you're looking at in regards to race, class, gender, all that stuff. It's like B. Yeah , I get it.
You can look at everyone, but you want to make sure that , I would say you want to make sure that you're looking at the student equity groups also with with more emphasis, like make sure that you're doing that and you might be surprised on the kind of interactions that you'll start having with your students in the classroom if you can. You know, it's like I don't, don't expect it to happen quickly, but always by two months into a semester for me, students who have never spoke before, it starts.
There are some students who start speaking now because it took them to at least that long to, for me to gain their trust and for me to, to really keep on inviting them in and make them understand this or , and have them understand. It's like, look, this is uncomfortable for me also, but I want you to sh and I want you to share your story. I want you to share your perspective.
I want you to share your thoughts and um, and so anyway, but making that eye contact with students and making sure that you are purposeful about black and brown students and you know, and any other group that you may be able to identify or whatever, but be purposeful about that. Don't just say, I'm going to look at everyone's eyes because now we get back right back into the very beginning of what we were talking about and just saying, you know, it's like, dude, do you really see your students?
Do you really see them? All of them. Because you know what, I'm gonna say this and get outta here. That and I love all my folks, all my colleagues. I always feel like I got to qualify things when I'm about to say, when I say things like this, but when I'm walking around on campus, like t , like today I'm in jeans and a tee shirt, right? And a lot of times colleagues will say to me things like this, oh Bruce, I didn't even see you there. I thought you were a student.
And it always makes me wonder about do you see your students that like is there only reason why you saw me is because I'm one of your colleagues and what does that mean? And so to me the eye contact thing brings us all the way into that space and just thinking about it. And so, but anyway, we ran over time on this one. We'll see. We'll see if I can cut it down into editing boots . But uh, thank you very much for listening everyone. And uh , hopefully you learned
something. Thank you for listening to this episode of reteach. If you want to learn more about me or my open source introduction to sociology textbook, please go to Bruce hoskins.com. In closing, I want to leave us all with a question. If you learned something today that you think would help close your student equity gaps, how long would it take to incorporate this into your classroom? The year , a semester next month. Today.
No matter the timetable, we must commit ourselves to becoming better teachers. Our students deserve it. All of them, not just the ones that are good already.
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