Rap Radar Rewind: Big Jon

tell a little bit of about love? Telling people a little bit about like what you do for a living, and why if you know the music industry, your name just keeps coming up. Sure you know. I'm a music publisher and I've been doing music publishing for over twenty three years now. Um. I started the E M I Music Publishing in n and I worked there for seventeen years, and then when the company got sold, I left and went to Warner chapel Um, which I am now the chairman and CEO. I've won a chapel Um and so

I work with songwriters. That's my life now. It's servicing songwriters, you know. Yeah, that's that's what I heard. The first taste was a little record called TLC Waterfall. Yeah, brother, by the name of Marcus ef. It's wrote that song.

Um a friend of mineam Erica Nory. When I first started e M, I I wanted to sign um lyric writers and a lot of people were signing producers at that time, and so I asked Erica did she know any lyrics writers because she wrote lyrics as well, and she said, yes, there's just a couple of guys in Atlanta, UM that you should meet. And I was going to Atlanta and she said, this is when the TLC album had just come out. Uh crazy, sexy cool, Yeah, second album,

second album, second album. And she said, there's these guys Marc Quez and Brandon and you should meet them. And I was like, okay, great. She's like, yeah, they've written on a couple of projects. They have a couple of songs on the TLC album. I said what songs are they write and she said Waterfalls and the songs called Wicked This Way It Comes. And I was like, Waterfalls, That's like my favorite song on the album. Now, Waterfalls wasn't a single yet at this time. Creep was the

same and Creep was exploding. Yeah yeah, yeah, Creep was just starting to go. And so uh, I went to Atlanta, track Marquez down and It took a long time to get it done because he didn't know what music publishing was and what it was about. And Uh, once we finally connected and I was really able to explain it to him, we got the deal done. And Waterfalls was the first record that I was a part of, UM

that went number one. Uh, that signed, I signed the writer that that wrote a song that went number one. And it was an amazing feeling. UM, you know, to see him have that moment, it was just amazing for me. And I was probably even know it was possible, like can you can you sort of explain what music publishing? Yeah, and and and in a better and a better way of that thing. He didn't know what it was about, to the point that he kept his job. He kept his full time job. He didn't know what kind of

money was in this thing. He was working at a hotel and he would not quit that job. And Waterfalls on the album on the album became a number one record, and he still would not quit his job for very long time. But you know, so music publishing, you know what we do is we administer the rites of the song of the songwriter songs. We you know, every time you hear a song, a songwriter is making money UM from very if you hear it in the movie, if you hear it on the radio, you hear it on

the record, UM on an album that you buy. That songwriter is making money, and someone has to go out and collect all of those revenue streams for the songwriters. UM. And that's what we do. We pull all those streams together, UM and make sure the songwriters are being plaid. We licensed the songs. UM. So that's that's the administration part of it. That's a quick example of the administration part

of it. But the part that UM other publishers do in the part that kind of made me popular, is to sign songwriters and then not just collect from the songs that they're doing, is to take songs that they've written and get them to other artists and create opportunities uh for songwriters. And and that's how music publishing is supposed to work. It doesn't work like that all of the time. But that's the service that I began to provide because that's how I knew it was supposed to work.

And it was an example when he first started doing that and was able to carve your niche. UM. Sure, like I signed. The writer a songwriter by the name of Tomorrow Savage UM years ago. This is back in the nineties, and I just a friend of mine, came and played me some of her music. I thought the music was incredible, UM. And I then got her in the studio with other producers who she started writing with and and the songs were really good, and but she

needed work on the songs. And I told her some advice on how to do the songs and or how to write a little better, and she was like okay. It was almost like she just needed to be told that. And the next song she wrote with Heartbreak Hotel for Whitney Houston. UM that we gave to Whitney Houston. But before that even came out, I had told Germaine about her. I got this new songwriter, and He's like, okay, we'll send it down here. I'll give her a try. So I took her to Atlanta. She and I went to

Atlanta and we were at Jermaine's house. He had a studio with his house, and so me and Jermain would play he he threw on some loops and she was in there messing around, and me and Jermaine would and play video games and he used to. Yeah, we was playing NBA live and I remember coming in there and she said, Paul, can you come and check this out? She would call me pop and she said, you come

and check this song out. It's like twenty minutes later and I went in there and she sang the hook to the First Night Monica's the First Night, and I said, Jermaine come in here. So he came in there and heard it, and next thing, you know, he heard it and he knew it clicked in me and he got on the drum machine and start start programming the rest of the beat out, and you know, maybe an hour later the whole song was written. You know, for being

part of the creative process. Like I think I said something you and j D in particular, like you give your input a lot. And I think one thing that j D was quoted one saying you're almost so honest that you're too honest. You know, we know how JD is, you know, I'm saying how strong opinion that he is.

Like what's it like to like, you know, like step in but sort of step out, like find that balance of give your opinion on you know, I always tell creatives now that I work with, you know, because I like I like to coach creatives as well and our people, um, you know, and I try to tell them like you, working with songwriters producers, it is very delicate. It is very very delicate, and you have to know when to get in and when to get out. And when you

do get in, you better be right. You better be right, or you better have something to offer because if you don't, they may not never listen to you again. They may not never listen to you again. And so I've just been blessed with that, you know, I've been able to contribute more than not contribute. Uh. But music is in me. Music is in me, and and you know, I have a great relationship with songwriters and producers and and they

trust me because of your role. Do you hear music differently when you're watching a commercial and all that, so the soul comes up, you're thinking this person just got paid or no, no, that's funny when I hear a commercial. When I see a commercial and then I hear music on there, the first thing I do, if I don't know about it, I'm email or text the person in our sync department, because that's the sync license when when

that music is used, how many how much? How much do they get paid for this song, you know, and just making sure you see what the fees are or whatever. And you know, there was a time once where I heard a song on the radio and uh, I won't say the artist, but uh, and I heard at the end, I said, it's a sample in there, right, I said, then that's a sample that we had that sample, it's

the earth Winning Fire sample. So I sent a I think I called my guy at e M. I M at the time, and I called my guy dad and I said, hey, did this sample get clear that he hadn't heard of the song. I was like, it's a it's an earth Winning Fire sample in this song. And so he tracked it down and he says, the guy says, there's no sample in the song. I said that it's a sample in the song. Um, And so I said, if you gotta listen at the end the end, they messed up and the sample play without the beat over

it right at the fade out. And so he listened to it again and he said, Okay, I hear it. So he goes back to them, to the label, and the producers just adamant like no sampling, this, this, and this, I said, And I knew, and I knew who the producer was m But you know the friends friends. Business doesn't come in when when you're dealing with people that you do that you're during business with, right, And so I said, okay, you know what, call him back. Tell him.

We try to be nice about it. So tell him, I said, So, tell him now we're taking the whole song. I said, tell him, now, we're taking the whole song. They call back, said, he said, okay, it's a sample sampling. I saw somethingwhere because you work with jay Z will get deeper into that obviously, but he accredited you that you saw of help change the way records were split in terms of a lot of times, correct me if

I'm wrong. It's like a song and theory, the writer and producer share the record, right fifty fifth year in some sense. But let's say the producer sample something, the writer would almost get cut out of the two thirds against one thirds in a sense. Right, yeah, I mean, listen, it depends on what side of defense you want, right.

And so for me, I was I was working with Jay and and I was seeing that he was eating a good portion of the samples, right, And I didn't I didn't feel that was fair because he didn't bring the sample to the to the to the to the to the song. Uh, and he was being charged with it, and I just we just went I just got aggressive with it, and I said, you know what, he's not going to eat any samples anymore. And I spoke with his team, so I said, anything with his publishing speak

with me, Um, he's not eating samples anymore. And we just got aggressive with it, and we really changed the way that operated. Where you know, if you're if you're a big enough artist, you shouldn't have to do that. You shouldn't have to do that. You bring a lot to the table just by walking in the room, you know what I mean, and being on the song. And so that's that was one of the things that we changed with him. And oh, this was this was early,

you know, this was early. This was probably uh, right around Volume two Partner, so right before the big break through. Yeah, that was that was That was the first album where I really dug in with Jay and really started to work with him, um administratively on on the set on the publishing. Uh. And that particular album me and Lennies did every song split on that album, and that was as biggest album, right, And so it was great because the administration was handled on the publishing and it was

as biggest album. So he got to see the immediate benefit of how that works and and you know, and so it's the lifetime lifetime. By now, yeah, it has turned into you know, I've worked with Ja since his first album, right, So yeah, you listen the reasonable doubting like back then, Like, I think what's unique about you too is like you know, people didn't Jay wasn't that big commercial success out the gate, but you saw something there in terms of his his content that attracted you,

like with reasonable doubt. Yeah. I mean I was just hearing songs that was so visual that I had never experienced hearing music that was so visual. I was like, I know someone like that, you know, and it just touched me in a way that that music hadn't touched me yet. Uh. And I also, I'm a DJ. I started I started in Denver. I grew up in Denver, and I was a DJ, so and I took pride in like breaking records. You know, I didn't know I was breaking records at the time. I didn't know that's

what that was called. But you know, when I would do parties, did you have your big songs that on the radio? Uh? But I would always challenge myself to find something else on the album that wasn't a big song because I always felt you hear the big songs on the radio when you come to the parties. I'm DJ, and I gotta break new music, and I was picking other songs off the album. So I just have a

you know, a gift. It's a gift from God. I just hear what I hear, hear what I believe in, and luckily what I believe in a lot of other people come around to believe in it. Can you still DJ? I'm sure I could, but but I don't. I know I could because when I go to certain parties, I'm like, this is not it, you know? But uh, you know, DJ is make a lot more way than I was making back there. I was making fifty bucks a night? Was it all the Did you have goals just to

be like the biggest DJ until Chuck D stuff? Then yeah, I guess so you know what I mean. I just loved music, and it was Chuck D. Who you met who inspired you to Yeah, yeah, I met Chuck. You know. They used my turntables for for a concert. That's how we met. That's how we met. Yeah, I had. So what happened was they came to Denmer for a show and there was a guy named Dave Klein that used to work at Deaf Jam. He's from Colorado and so he's the one who actually sent me public in his

music in the beginning to play in the clubs. And he said they were coming to town, and so they came in for the show. We got to the venue and the equipment was terrible and terminated. X was like, I can't DJ on this stuff. It was like it might have been radio shock equipment. Like it was like turntables and sad mixer and ship and literally I said, you can use mine. I said, I used the same turntables you use and he said okay um, and he got in my I said, but they at my house.

So he got in my Ford Granada with me and drove to my place and we wrapped my turntables in blankets. I didn't have anvilcations at the time, and they used my turntables for the show. And that's how me and Chuck met and after the show, Chuck gave me sixty dollars and and he you know, by the way, I'm in Denver, and I gave it back to him by the way, and I was like, it's my honor to do this, and he was like no, no, He's like, no, no, no, we made money and you helped us, so you make money.

And and and that became a friendship. And a couple of years later, public Indemy is now huge, and he Chuck was on the lecture circuit. He came back to Colorado to speak out of college and I went to that event just to hear him speak. And he walked past me to go to the stage and I tapped him and he turned and said big John. I was like, oh, he remembers me, and he said hang out afterwards. And

the bond started then. And uh. A few years later after that, he had that conversation that changed my life in terms of just like, don't be satisfied being this the big thing in the smaller market. Yeah. Yeah, we were talking and he had come to town with ice Cube. It was it was Chuck. It was publican to me ice Cube and yo yo the concert and it was right on ice Cube this most wanting. You know, they

produced that album. The squad produced that album, and so you know, we were in, Me and Chuck were in and I was m C in the concert. So I had become such a popular DJ that I was m seeing that show. And so, uh, we were in the arena watching ice Cub do it sound check and Chuck was sitting one row behind me. Was just us two and and we were just talking about stuff and he said, you know, a big time what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do with yourself? And You're like,

I'm by the way, that's exactly what I said. By the way, that's exactly what I said. Yeah, so uh, I um, I was confused because I was like, that's exactly what I said. I was to come up in the market. What are you talking about? Like I got this here, like like I'm the man here. And he says, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And I'm like, okay, what are you talking about? Because truck can get deep.

And he says, every time I come to Denver, you're the man, because he had been there never quite a few times. Every time I come to Denver, you're the man. But unless you dream bigger, that's all you ever gonna be is the man here. And so he said, you know, you should start a record label. I said, I don't have no money, and started record labor. And so he started telling me all these things I could do. He made name three or four things, and the industry just stuff,

and I was, I can't do that. I can't do that. And then he just said, I don't know. I just think you have something to offer to the music business. You're always asking questions about it. And that was the end of the conversation of that part of the conversation that night when I left the venue, and the next day it just stuck with me and stuck with me and stuck with me, and to the point I just started.

I was on the huff information at that point and got books on it, and you know, found some producers I started to manage out here in California. I'm still living in them at the time. Um it was the USC came out, met them, I said, listen, and they had good music. So, um, yeah, producers mat Dukie Productions. And so a friend of mine turn me onto them. So I heard the music and I was like, wow, how could nothing not be going on with these guys?

So I said, listen, you don't know me. I don't know you, but I know a couple of people because I would go to the music conferences like Jack the Rapping, New Music Seminar and so so, those all those type of things. But I was one as a DJ, right, I was just going to get free vinyl, to be honest with you, and so, yeah, exactly, you know so uh, I said, but if I get some things happening for you guys, maybe you let me manage you. They're like, okay, cool.

You know. I met a friend named Steve Prudhomme at Jack the Rapper. You know, I met another guy in New York and led you a meeting about publishing for these for these producers, which then led me to Los Angeles for another meeting. And I didn't know a lot about publishing. So I called my friend Steve, who had just kind of got his job at e m I and I said, I got this meeting, can you help me out about publishing? Said yes, come through. So I

came through. He schooled me for what he knew about publishing, and when I was leaving, I said thanks. I'm about to leave to go to the other meeting, right, and he says, well, you're not gonna play me the music. I was like, oh, you want to hear it? So I played in the music. He loses his mind. He's like, don't go to that meeting. Let me sign it. And you know, long story short, I signed those producers to E M I and you know me managing. Then my

figured I better learn music publishing. And a couple of years later, YEAHM I offered me the job. And that's how I know you was taking over the office too. Yeah. Yeah, you didn't even work there. You did your homework, like hogging the conference room and stuff. Yeah, he said he figured out the key locks, the key codes in the building.

Yeah yeah. Like, yeah, I would be there because I was still living in Denver, and so when I came to l A, my my only real relationship was E M I, right, because I had I had business with them, So you know, I would be there all the time. And I didn't have a cell phone. I didn't have a lot of money. I was staying at my aunt's house and my mother's aunt's house in South Central Um, sleeping on a twin bed uh, Because then I finally had decided to try to get out here more often.

So I needed a place to stay, and she would let me stay with her rent free. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her. But anyway, at e M I I would be there all the time, like all day, all night. And so one time I was going up there and I've seen someone put the code in right and and so I was over the shoulder like oh, And I literally would go back after we leave, I would go back. I didn't have any whorlse to go.

I would go back, put the code in, and I'll be in there listening to music all night, blasted music in the conference room. And again I didn't have a cell phone, so I would use their phone for the long distance phone calls. And that's how we called around to the company's in New York and car family and every So you literally cracked the code in the game.

But even as a music publisher, like you know, you recruit talent, like what a good characteristics and trace that someone has to have in order to make it in this business? Well for me, I mean, of course it starts with great music, right, um, great songs, But that is almost the easy part. Um. You know, for me, it's like, do you have a desire to win? Uh? Can you can you take being told no? Can you take being told your music isn't good? Uh? Can you

take being told? Not yet? And if you can't handle that type of stuff, I'm not saying you won't make it, but it's probably the best we we don't work together, you know, because I I you gotta have you gotta have this resilience, you know, have this resiliency about you to really um to really be able to push forward and have really really thick skin because you're gonna hear no a lot in this business a lot. And you know that's the challenge right now with uh, I guess

it's with any generation. To be honest with you, every one wants to start at the top, you know, no one. Rarely do people want to put in the work. And what I try to explain to people, which you know I've learned, is being at the top is it's fantastic, but but not as great as the journey to the top. Yeah, And your whole thing is that credit your success to getting with these artists in the beginning of the journeys

like Jay Given Beyonce. It almost seems like a dream hit list of dream team of artists, Like almost unreal if you mentioned that J b A, Kanye and Drake Usher, Like that's insane. All one man snoope, what you made rock? By the way, that's Mr Collige Park who produced that record. Yeah, but what is it? What is it that you saw in these artists at the beginning, Like give me an example of one and like what you saw and he was like, okay, I want to be in business with

this person. Um, it's funny, Like Usher is a good story. Um. Usher was was this teenager who had an album um initial uh debut release and they did okay, uh yeah, yeah, yeah it did good. But he had the song called thinking you did that song We're not Mistaken? That was the hottest song on the album, right and it was it was kind of a hit, and so actually it

wasn't hit Puff Sorry Puff, it wasn't. But he was working on his second album and you know he I don't even know if I knew he was working with Jermaine yet at the time, but I eventually found out he was working with j D And so he was performing at this city of Hope event. It's it's a longer story for Usher, but I want to tell you what the moment that it really connected with me. And he was performing at the City of Whole function and l A and Baby Face for being honor they were honorees.

That year was twenty years ago actually this year, um and so they had all of that artists performed. I think perform. I think Tony Bracks perform, and Usher before he's one of the earlier asked to perform. Then you gotta remember he only had one album out, didn't you didn't have a lot of material. I remember, like it was yesterday, he comes out in this red leather suit and did Bobby Brown. He performed Bobby Brown songs because l A and Face wrote those songs, and he performed

Bobby Brown. He performed, I mean, he performed. Did he performed, And I was like, I remember sitting there, I was like, that guy's a star. He's a star. And I just went on the mad pursuit after that, after him, and then you know, maybe a few months later he made one that came out to the moon, you know. So you know, I often say people when they speak about me, they speak about in my work. They speak about, you know, the the icons that I work with, right, and and

that's fantastic because that's exactly what they are now. But it didn't start that way. It started out of something that I just heard that was fantastic, and I was like, I want to I want to be a part of that. And then they went on to be global icons. And I think that's how I've been able to maintain such great relationships is that I was there in the beginning and with some of them. You know, I had a hand in the journey. You know, I had a hand and did by work for the part of the ride,

and it's it's fantastic. A lot of new artists saying interviews and things that the nature that you know when they're getting into the business, never signed a publishing deal. What are your thoughts about that? Um, you have to

educate yourself. You have to educate yourself because because I don't know why they would say that, So I don't know their journey, you know there they may have they made themselves or know if someone who who signed some sort of an agreement and it wasn't a fair agreement, right,

So I can't speak on on their path. You know what I will say, in today's business, people have to be careful what they signed because you know, now we have streaming, we have YouTube, we have all of these things, sound clas out, you know, all these different ways where

you can get music out quickly. That what hurts my heart the most is when someone does have some success and then they want to do a publishing deal, right, because you know, the publishers is kind of like your first real check from a lot of people, because when you sign a recording agreement, you know, you get some money for your pocket, but most of that money is to record to your budget. Right, So people go to a publisher to get that real check to live off of. Right.

But there are times where a lot of these kids they're getting these songs that are that are taken off really quickly, and then they want to do a publishing deal, only to find out that they can't because they signed it away to someone at the studio, someone in the streets somewhere wherever, like someone who was going to put you on and and and it's and it's in the contract so deep and if you don't know what it

is like a record you could touch, right. Publishing you can't touch you can't touch it, so people don't view it as valuable until they until you know. Let's say, for instance, I'll give you a perfect example. Let's say you too wrote a song, and let's say you signed to the guy whoever it was right, and you didn't

know publishing was in the agreement. Let's say be that I I didn't sign anything right, and the song takes off, be that comes to me, we do a deal, a couple hundred thousand dollars right, and then you're like, oh, I want to do a deal too, and come to find out you can't because because of that piece of paper you signed. And so I if I can offer anything um to the kids coming up right now, because

they're doing really good work, you know. And and and it's harder now because records take off so quick now and that's ever like even more so there's like a grab to okay, let me just get on, let me rush to get that big check. No. I don't know if it's harder right now, but I do know what I can say. It's harder to find people that you

know are in it for your career, Okay. Uh, I think the business is moving so fast right now, that that people are chasing the records instead of helping build careers. And that's what I know how to do, and that's

what I believe in, is you know. And I'll tell anyone, um, if they're coming to do a deal with me and we're negotiating or we're talking about a deal in Nate and they say, well, you know, let's say you know that is coming to me and and and uh, you know, we're talking about, you know, with his lawyer and him or whatever about what the deal is worth. And he says, well, such and such offering me this, you know, and let's say it's more money. And I say, that's great, you

know what I mean. And I'll tell you if you want to check go there, if you want the career, you come here, you know what I mean. That's I'd say it all day because I just feel what we bring you if you come with us, or if you come with me and the teams that I build, that you're gonna get that money anyway and then some because

we're gonna work with you to do it. So you say that, you keep your confidence and even if you lose out on somebody, you're saying like that doesn't gonna last like for you or for years, He'll be back around now. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I said that arrogant, but but but I do believe that you know, um, listen, all deals have an expiration date on them, right, And so you know, I feel people should be where they want to be, you know, period, not just because of the check, not

just because of what someone said you should be. You should be with who you feel comfortable with, whether that's me or someone else. That's just how it works. But I also know that deals end, and if it's something I'm super passionate about, and I don't really chase deals that I'm not super passionate about, then I know when you're deal is coming up and I'm gonna be there and we can try to do this dance again. Wow? Would you take someone like off the streets? Like? How

do you find these talents? These talents, you know, writers and artists? It like they have to have a buzz already or is it? Man? I could care less. I can care less. All I care about is great music. You know. All I care about this great music. I mean I've literally done that. I've done that more than than the other, to be honest with you, you know what I mean? Like I sagned a writer about any

my Harold Lily all right. And so a friend of mine was meeting with me manager playing me an artist who who who was an established artist for a publishing deal. And I liked the songs, but I I didn't. I didn't love a ton of them. You know, they didn't resonate with me, right and so, and he I was straight up with himself, I don't know if this is for me. So we're just talking. I turned the music down,

but it's like in the whisper and we're talking. As we're talking, I hear this song and I'm talking to him, but I'm hearing the song. It's like literally so low. So the song goes off and I said, let me have something. She wrote that song. It was a duet, and he was like, I think I played it again. He was like, I don't think she wrote that song. I was like, oh listen, I said, So I say to him, well, who wrote it? He was like I

don't know. I says, um, can you call it? So he calls her and she says, that's my friend Harold, and so I'm like, okay, cool. So I'm trying to talk. He's like, keeping from getting phone, so he takes the phone back. I'll get I'll get all the information for you. And I didn't hear from him the next I assumed I wasn't gonna hear from him the next day or two. But that night I remembered a friend of one of my closest friends from Denver, and he was dating a

girl at the time. He ended up Marriner, but he would always say this artist that he was meeting with was her cousin, and it would go in one and out there. I didn't mean anything to me, and it popped in my head and I called him. I said, hey, didn't you say your girl is cousins with with this artist? He said yeah. I said, can you call her? I'm trying to find this songwriter. All I know is his name is Harold. So she does that and he calls

me back the next day. Okay, here goes she she couldn't find her cousin, but she talked to her aunt, and the guy's name is Harold Lily and his mom's name is such a slash, and here goes his phone number. Game of the phone number I called Harold. He didn't know what the publishing deal was. He didn't know anything. He thought it was a prank phone call. Actually, and and so, um. You know, long story short, we we

got together, we did a deal. He wouldn't call me back forever, by the way, and then one day he was in the studio. I didn't know this after I signed him. He was in the studio with a bunch of other writers and producers and working on stuff because he worked with Missy a lot as well, and so

and so, um, just trying to get on right. And so they're telling stories about fake people in the industry, and he's like, yeah, man, some dude named Big John called my house talking about jail or something like that. And he says the studio got quiet, and so and so he and he's talking and the guy says, some guys sitting next to me said women, big John called your house. He's like, yeah, who is he? He's like, he called your house. He's like, yeah, what do he says?

He said, you want to do a publishing deal? He said, well, what do you do? I didn't call him back, and they just started going Crazyer, you ain't call him back. He called me back, we got the deal done. And then so that's that's an The street with the beauty of that whole story is he came to l A,

starts writing the songs everything. Um, he gets in the studio with a very young Kanye West and they write a song called you Don't Know My Name for Alicia Keys and then Harold want to grab me, He want to grab me Award, he want to grab I was sitting right next to him when he wanted to grabby

and I'll never forget that moment. And I saw something you work with Jez, and I think he was saying it was an important conversation when you was kind of telling him, you know, because that's somebody who had the transition out of the streets into the business. Yeah, and you sort of, bro, it's a life to him that this is your this is now your path, this is

your career. Yeah, you know. Jeez is one of those artists where, first of all, he was starting to bubble on the mix tapes, right, and I wanted I wanted to sign I knew what this was gonna be. I knew what it was. Yeah, Yeah, I wanted to sign him. And he was not interested in doing a publishing deal at all at all. It would call his lawyer like, n he doesn't want to meet you, he doesn't want to publishing deal, Like he's not interested in money. I

don't know that part. So one night I was in I was in Tallahassee, Florida, visiting my brother, and I was in a holiday inn and it was it was torture, trust me. So I didn't want to stay in the room. So I ended up going downstairs because that was the only place I could get internet was in this little bitty makeshift business center they had, And so I got on the internet and I'm just you know, doing stuff and I and I typed up a deal and I sent it to his lawyer. It's like two or three

in the morning. I had nothing else to do, but I'm like typing up the deal this I sent it to the lawyer. Lawyer calls me Monday. He says, um, what what is what is this? You sent me? Like I told you, Jeez doesn't want to do a deal. I said, now, that's what you said, But your lawyer and I sent your offering. You have an obligation now

to show him the offer. And so and so he sent the offer to Jeez and he says, he calls me back, you know, a few days later, he says, he still doesn't want to do a publishing it, but he wants to meet you. He wants to meet like that. Yeah, he wants to meet you. He wants to know who's so crazy that they send an offers. When I when he didn't want to do a deal, I went to Atlanta and met him at this house. And I mean this house was big. It's big. No new artists lived

like j new artists. Did you come alone? Yeah? I didn't go alone. Actually I did go alone. I think it was lawyer might have been with me, but I went. And you know, so then Jeez comes and we sat down and we started talking and he said, I like you man, and uh and then we you know, we gotta deal done. But it took forever to get the deal done. Like people don't know. I signed Jeez in the Chicago airport. That's what we signed the deal in

the airport, in the airport. In the airport. I met him in d C. That's where we were supposed to sign it because you know, the album, first album had just come out. He's like, come to the record release party. We're gonna do the deal then, and deal was fully negotiated. Me and his lawyer. We go to d C. Yeah, yeah, we're deal. We are execution copies go to d C. Down and and so I got by the way, I'm excited.

So I got I hired for time. I never do hid atgrapher the whole everything, right, something at the hotel. I asked the hotel, how you use a room for the pictures, the whole everything. Yeah. So so then Jeez walks in, got the shades on everything, he sits down, we start chopping it up. I was like, yo, man, all right, let's do this man. So he's like, all right, man, let's do it later. I was like, we'll be right here right now. Let's do it after the show. I'm

like after the show. He's like yeah, I'm like all right. So we go to the show with this club. I mean, he turned this club out. I mean people is hanging from the rafters singing every single word, every single Jesy song. We get back to the hotel, Jesus nowhere to be found. You nowhere to be found. So the next morning I show up again. I'm leaving. I said, they said we're here to do it in the morning. I said, right, I don't know. No artists is waking up that early.

So I go anyway, wait for two or three hours, no jeezy. So now I have to go to the airport. I'm out. I feel a little disrespected, you know what I'm saying, Like I'm flowing all the way out here, and it's all good. So he calls me a couple of days later, Oh my bad, you know such a such. You know, I really want to get with you, but I got a bunch of stuff I gotta do and we'll catch up at a different time. I'm like, okay, I said, where are you going? He said, I gotta

go to Chicago. I was like, I'm gonna be in Chicago because I was literally gonna be in Chicago there. And I can hear him on the phone, go like I I could just hear it. And so I meet him in Chicago. I can't find jeez. Give me to run around again everywhere he say he's gonna be at He's not there. Right, I'm in my hotels Saturday. I'm I've done my business and I was supposed to do there and I'm I'm trying to be out and my

phone rings and its jeezy. He's like, I'm like, what's up, man, And so he's talking to me, and so then Jeez goes, man, I know you want to do this deal, this this, and then he goes, I get a look, I get a little more money. I was like, we're talking about the deals negotiated. It's a great deal. Jesus got one of the best deals I ever did. And so I said, it's a great deal. So we're talking. He's like, all right, man, I'm messing with you. I'm messing with you. I'm ready

to do it. I was like, ally, where you at. He goes, I'm at the airport. I at the airport. He's like, yeah, I'm even in about an hour and a half to leave. To leave, I was like, I'll be there. He said, you ain't gonna make it here to I said, I'll be there. I went downstairs to the conciergee. I said, I need to know the republic. He's know, most concierge and no republics and you gotta this notarize at least back then, I said, can you ride with me to the Chicago airport? He was like, no,

we don't do that. I said, trust me, ride with me. It's a big deal. I get the guy to ride with me. We go to the airport. He's such a little private airports. He's flying private that day and he's been flying private back then, just so you know. So so we go there and Jez was there, and we went in a little room and we got the business done. And I remember I gave him the check. It was a big check too, by the way, a big lot of zeros, a big check. I gave him the check

and he gave me the check back. What he said, what I'm doing with this? I said, I don't know? Cash it? So he gives me the check back. He said keep it for me, and he left. Still done. He gives me the check back to hold for him. So I get back to l A. I call it lawyer. I said, Jez gave me the check back. I said, I'm gonna send it to you. Send it to his lawyer,

and the lawyer holds onto the check. All of a sudden, about three months later, I get a call from the lawyer, Hey, can we send you this check back because it's at the end of the year. You know, we don't want to tax on it. Right um to the following year. I said, what check? He goes to check from Jesus advance. I said, you guys didn't catch that check it. He said no, he sends me to check back. I send the check to New York. I said, we're gonna write the check after the you know, first of the year.

All good. That happens like clockwork. Right April, I get a call from Jeez. This is like eight months later, by the way, I get a call from Jeez Yo. Man, what's uping? Man? And we are close at this time, right, we're super close. Man, what's upthing? Man? I said, what's going on? Man? Man? My lawyer, my lawyer tripping man? I said, what's going on? Man? I went to an office to get my check. They can't find my check. So i'thing, like, what check the check you gave me?

I said, the publishing check. Yeah, I said, you haven't cash that check yet, Man, I'm going to get it. Eight They play with my money. They play my money. They can't find my checking about the fire all that, Man, it's gonna be some problems, said Jeezy, calmed down. I said, I could check within ten minutes and find out if the check has been cashed. I said, it hasn't been cash I promise you if it hasn't been cast with you give you a new check. You could do that

called of course there was no problem. It hasn't been done. We got him a new check. But it was eight Jeezy had money, man, That's why he didn't cash it. He didn't need to cash it. So why do you think he signed if he had the money? Like that the whole thing, like, you know you can, you can you I mean, you could have the most money in the world, you still need someone that minister. You're publishing, right, you know that's a job. That's a job, and that's

what we do, right, That's what I do. That's what the companies I work for it does. That's what music publishers do. You can have the most money in the world, the biggest hits or whatever, you still need someone to track down all those revenue streams for you and make sure you're being paid correctly. That's very important, you said, and the interview wants you said that people used to watch the charts like, you know, what is your litmus test or how do you evaluate the record? To the music. Man,

I don't care about no charts. I don't like you know, I believe if it's great, well, that part is will take care of itself. Right. I'm more concerned about how many times can we do that, not if we will do that. You know, I never signed a songwriter. I think if they have the number thirty seven song on the charts, I always signed a songwriter because I think they're gonna write number one songs. Some of them have written them already and some haven't written them yet, you know,

but I believe they will. You always, I saw something you said you listen. You listen also for a moment of greatness, and that's what you love about Beyonce, that she has that and takes it to another level. You've really done your homework. You're really trying to slide her name, are really really hold like? What is like like is that moments that Beyonce is catalog When you listen, it goes again that she enjoyed it as a music, as a music had like you know, listen, it's it's you know,

we make music together. So my thing is, you know, what what I say is what I mean by when I listened to a moment of greatness. When I listen to music, I'm just looking for anything that's great. It could be a verse, it could be the beat, it could be the bridge, it could be just a run in the song. Anything. Is there anything great in here that we could build upon to make the whole thing great? And you know she listens to music the same way.

You know, That's how we connect. We listen for anything great, anything, and let's build on that. Like you you you know, I don't want to with some artists like that, you have more of a hands on in the creation process. Like Yeah, it's just it's just I mean, it's it's not just her, it's it's other artists as well. It's it's just, you know, whenever I feel it, I don't do it just because just to do it, you know. And I think that's why I have such great relationships

with artists. I'm not I'm not sending them songs every day, right. I send them songs when I feel there's a song that's right for them. And when I send songs, people listen. They may hit me back and say they don't like it, that's okay, you know, um, but they listened because I'm not hitting them every day, and and and when I

sent them, it's it's usually something special. I think a great story with that is that you worked with j for so long and then Empire State of Mind was the record that you brought a demo of it to him sure and developed into the record which became his first number one record. Yeah. I sent him that song on Father's days before before he had kids. If I'm not mistaken, and but I did, and I was the only reason I was in town was was was was for b show um, and that day before I went

to a barbecue. That's why I found the record. That was at a barbecue. Um. Some songwriters that we're working with, the E M I Um, Angela Hunt and Janet Um Suo. They wrote the song. It was an R and B song. A lot of people don't know that it was R and B song, two minute R and B demo, two verses, two hooks, concrete jungle, the whole the whole thing. I was in there. I was in there and so um.

But it was singing verses and so they were supposed to see me an instrumental and instrumental with only the hook. But they wrote the song in London, so they couldn't track the producer down to get to get the parts, and so they just sent me. I said, we'll just send me the regular version right um, which they did the next day. They didn't send him where they were supposed to, and I thought they were flaked on me. And the next morning I woke up and the songs

were in my inbox and I listened to it. I might listening to my at my computer like twenty times. That's another thing. Before I send the song out, I've I have quality controlled that song like nobody's business, because you know, I'm listening and I'll tell the writer to fix something. Anyway, I listened to the song over and over my little on my computer, and I was like, oh, this is it. What did you hear that that you thought it was? I mean, the beat was the same beat.

You know what I'm saying, It's the same beat, and that hook it just was It was so jay Z. To me, it was so what those words were saying. It was so jay Z. And I sent him an email. I said email the song then, and I said, hey, check this out. I think it could be big for you. Disregard the verses and and He hit me back tim minute later and he says, Yo, happy Father's Day. Dot dot dot send it. Send that, sending a s a P.

So I'm looking at my BlackBerry at the time. I'm looking at my black I'm like, I sent it already something. He's looking at it on his phone. You know, I sent him a song. He wants to hear it. I said, I sent it already, was attached in the email. And then I went to the gym. And I came back from the gym, and I got my you know, device out of the safe, and I'm looking. I get all these emails from Jay. I'm like, I'm like, why is

he emailing me so much? Because once I sent it, I'm moving on to the next thing, Like, why is j emailing me so much? And I send that he says, no, send the pro tools. I'm cutting it tomorrow. I'm like to what. I'm like, Oh, he's talking about the song. I started flipping out my hotel room. And then uh he sent me another email in that serious emails and he says, um, do you have any idea what you just did by sending me this song? And you know

that night I go to the show. Be sure with the garden and me and me and me and Hope was in the dressing room and he said, yo, you sent me one day and he said, he said, he wrote it already. I said, how do you write it already? It's like lyrics on the song like he said, no, no, I wrote it already. I said, how like his verses And he said, nat the end, at the end, it's just a couple of seconds of music. And he just kept rewinding that little couple of seconds and wrote the

whole song right then. And that night was the night we came up with putting a lesha on the song, right there in the dressing room. Two days later, he hits Alicia um or her manager or whoever, because I know her manager left the student and called me about it. He's like, what's up with this song? I'm like, what song? He's like, I just left your man j he got

the song she wanted. I said, oh, that song. I said, yeah, she should do that, and uh, she should do that, and you know, she did the song and it became it became a monster. What what did it mean for you to induct him to the Hall of Fame? I mean everything, because that was not what it was supposed to be. You know, I you know, I'm on the board of song writ It's Hall of Fame, um. And so what I've been able to do being on the

board is is walk them into our culture. You know, there had never been a rapper um inducted into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame. And and it took a few rounds of discussions, um, you know, a year or two and and to explain it to them that you know, rappers and songwriters. You know, the hip hop producers are songwriters. And Jay made it to the ballot. Now you know, we can fight and clicking straw to h call to get you on the ballot, but the voters vote you in.

So he got on the ballot ballot, but the voters voted him in. And that was a very rewarding moment, you know, because you know, he is one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And then, um, a couple of days before the ceremony and that we knew it was close because of the baby's everything, but he was still coming and yeah, yeah, he hit me and said I'm not gonna be able to make it. And so I said to him, okay, uh, let me figure this

out because it was a big deal. And I hit him back, I said, you know what, we could push it. We could push it to the following year. And he hit back, No, I'm going in now. Yeah, he said, I'm going in now. Yeah. He said, I'm going in now. He said, you accepted. He said, you accepted. He goes, You've worked just as hard as this as I have. And it really touched me when he said that. Um, you know, I actually started crying when he said when he when I got that text, it was like an

emotion I had hadn't felt. And and you know, in two days, I had to pull together the responsibility, Yeah, responsibility of it in the speech. I you know, did that whole speech and but it was rewarding. It was it meant everything to me. It meant everything to me to share that with him and his family. Yeah, what do you think of that? Like the whole idea, Like I think you have said this piece that the stigma of you guys are not songwriters, You're not quite there yet,

Like there's such like you. We come from loving hip hop and we respect the MC, but it seems like we always have to fight for people to view that all works of art. Is real poetry, it's real, it's real music. Yeah, it is real music. And I think that you know, you have these, you know, generations of what we call purist or you know someone call the music snobs or whatever you wanna call it, right, um, and we and we have that ourselves with hip hop,

right with music snobs, where generations of hip hop. Right, it just happens. But I think that you know, I don't know why it is. I know it's not fair. I know it's not right. Um, because we watch these people write songs. I think people view it because of when because people sample, right, I think they view that

it's not songwriting. And I do view with his songwriting. Uh, if you would beat out write a song together, you guys did what we call the co write, right, So I view sampling it's the same way, right I view if a producer sample something they just wrote a song with whoever they sample the other person just wrote their part thirty years ago, yeah, it's it's a co write and so and that's one part of it. And but the beauty of sampling is that I've seen people literally

cry when they get the royalty checks. Like it's people who were like about to lose their houses and whatever, and someone will sample a song and then the royalties coming in and they're getting the royalty check for four hundred thousand dollars and they literally cry because there'll be a lot of great soul musicians the way. That's the first check, because then it's checks and checks and checks and checks after that. And so, you know, sampling changes lives,

and it keeps music alive. It keeps some of these copyrights alive. And you know, yeah, we could talk about Earth when and fire song that was a very well known song that will sample, right, I knew that song. But then you have people like Premier and all these people who dig in the crates and they want to sample the stuff that isn't popular, that wasn't known, right,

And and it's changing these people's lives. You know, when Rich Harrison sample um the Shylight song, it changed changed the guy's life with with for crazy and love, you know what I mean, Like it's still checks coming to this day for that, Like I changed someone's life. What are some of the most like I guess valuable uh songwriters or songs that have come across your desk. We

were debating that. Um Rich Harrison who wrote Crazy in Love, Marquez World, Waterfalls, Um, you know all of j stuff, all of these stuff, you know what I mean, Usher, Jermaine uh I worked with Mario Winners. He he wrote. He gave me a CD of songs, just demos, and like the number thirteen song on the chart was a song called can Be Friends, which gave the Trade songs. I sent that to Mike Karen on a Sunday. You know, it doesn't it doesn't. And he hit me back literally

on the Sunday. It's like, yeah, this is really good. I'm gonna get it straight to Tray and and Tray recorded the song and it became a monster, you know. But it's a team it's a team effort, you know, because the condition I sent that song and it was just two verse this again, two verses in the hooks. And Trey recorded the song as it was, and Craig Calman told him it needs to be a bridge on the song, and he made Trade write a bridge to

the song. And the bridge is like one of the best parts of the song, you know, it brought it all together, Like you know, that's the other part too. You you have to I've been blessed to work with people who who either have vision or trust my vision because every song that I pitched it's not it's not in the condition where it's ready to be like that record. You know, it's like the idea of what it could be and can we pull it all together? Like you know,

you talk about the empire state of mind. It was a demo like like j did his versus which was ridiculous. Right, Alicia did her part, but that bridge wasn't on the song. Alicia's part throw your hands in the air, all that, none of that was on the song. None of that was on the demos, like she added all of that big part of the song. Right, So you know, it's about having the vision of you know, drunken love. Same thing that was that that's that's that's the Queen at

her ultimate genius. To me, like if you heard the condition of that song she received, but it was moments of greatness in it and and she connected with it and she finished, I'm talking about this night and day. It's night and day. When I said I was sending that song, the ten other artists and ten other artists would be like, don't ever send me another song, you

know what I mean? Another that's like even so in the modern day, was the record like Ape Ship where that comes out of Farrell and Bigos and it ends up being with the carters, Like can you talk about the journey of a record like that? I mean, I didn't work on that record, but it's like, you know, you really want you know, the magic of a special artist.

They get a demo of a song and turned it into their own song, you know, and that's what happened at that song, Like at a certain point, you don't hear that, you hear if the artists turned it into their own song. Like one of my biggest frustrations if you give a song to an artists they sing it exactly like the demo, same exactly like the demo. So you know, if it happens at times and sometimes it's

still a hit. But you know, great artists they you know, and you have to teach songwriters that as well, because sometimes songwriters will write a song and they write it as if they're the artist, right, so they sing it like it's their song. And I teach younger songwriter that no, no, no no, no, no no, that's that's not gonna word

that way. You gotta sing this song regular, it's not your song, and you have to leave room for the artist to own the song because a lot of times, let's say it's a girl or a guy who could really sing, and you send that song to the artist as is, sometimes the artist is like, I don't want to do it. It's not they don't like the song. They don't see their way into the song. You've got to leave them a path to get into the song, and they're like, well, that's that's their song. Another frustration

I know you have is with the word urban. Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know the urban music Hi Direct companies used to brand things urban music departments are still doing, still do. But they say, you're very adamant then that you would love that to be eradicated in terms of yeah, because that's I don't know. You don't call it that, right, I don't. I mean, I think it's been. It's been. We've been conditioned to call it that, right, But I can tell you none of us came up with that term.

And I don't. I don't. I don't know what that means. I don't know what urban means. I view it as a as a way to make it accessible to others. Right. But what people don't understand is that hip hop is the most inclusive genre in the world. We don't you know, we don't have to dumb it down by calling it urban. You know. I was just in Malaysia and a guy wanted me to meet an artist. He's like, we've been we really want to give us some of your songwriters,

some some of your producers. And he says, you know, because black culture he called it. He said, the globalization of black culture is taking over. And I wanted to hug him. I wanted I wanted to hug him because he didn't say urban music, you know, he said the globalization of black culture. And this is an Asian guy, right, And I wanted to hug him because he wasn't afraid to say that, you know. And that's what this is.

And but but the thing that people have to remember, and I'll say it again, is that hip hop music the culture that I that I grew up in, that made me who I am. It's the most inclusive culture of any genre as a fact. So it's it's not about that. You can if it's called black music, whatever you wanna call it. Everyone can participate. Everyone can participate, is anyone if you missed out on, yeah, you really want to go there? Like I'm not gonna say the artist because this is a tap is yes, I missed

out on a very big artist. Um, a massive artist, I might add. And it wasn't that I was trying to sign the artist. Someone else was and they wanted my opinion on it. And you know, it's around the

time to you know, volume too. It came out right, and I I started asking these questions like, well, how much is the deal and all these type of things, and in my mind are like what Jay didn't get that, Like I wouldn't pay that, and I just way too far down the rabbit hole, and and all the person wanted to know if I thought that music was good, right, and and so my energy influenced them to not do the deal and became a massive artist and um, you know, and I and it was it was said, you know,

the urban legend became that I told him, don't do the deal, right, I didn't do the deal, and that's not what happened. But at the end of the day, I did own it because I just thought back, I said what did I do wrong? And I was like, you know what, I didn't just do what was asked of me. And and that's very important. It's like working with creative Like I said, it's very delicate, and I learned a very important lesson then. But then I signed Kanye West. I heard that was a hunt too, right,

because you had competition. Another rival company had popped up at the last minute, and you had to really like to make that happen. Yeah, I mean I had been trying to sign Kanye for quite a while actually, and before you get that, remember from that hour, he was such a respected as the producer. What did you see in him as an artist to step in the forefront Because some people are like, oh, stick to produce, and most of us was like, oh, you're a great producer.

We didn't necessarily see him as a artist at that time. Yeah. Well, well, I mean you asked me what I see finding songwriters? What makes one of song I said, passion? Right, I had a tiger. You'd be very hard pressed to find someone more passionate about music than Kanye West, very hard pressed. So he has that always always. You know, my first real meeting with Kanye, we were doing a conference in Chicago,

one of those music conferences. Um, and so we were on this panel together, and so he gets to the end and they always ask the question where do you see yourself in five years? And you know, whatever, right, And I hate those questions, right, and so I give whatever little genetic answers. I'm never showing cards. And so he gets to Kanye at the end and he said, what do you see yourself in five years? And he's and I'm just relaxing. He says, you know, I guess

I hope to get my weight up something. So somebody like Big John to sign me. And I remember, I said, you just played me? Did he just played me? I'm like, what's wrong with this guy? And so, you know, we we stayed in touch, or you know, a couple of

years later we got more in touch. And his manager at the time was Gee Roberson, really good friend of mine, and so we never could get a deal done, you know, because he wanted what he wanted and at that time he was a producer and he did sample a lot, right, and so UM but G said, when we're ready to do, when we're gonna come to you. And so you know, at that at this time. I think Harold might have wrote the song with him in the studio and then

he had the Ludicrous record out, the stand up record. Yeah, and so I said, there, things are really starting to come together for him, and so maybe we should do this deal. And I called g It was on the weekend, and he was like, oh man, big j M man, we about we did a deal already. I said, what do you mean you did a deal? Like you said we were gonna do it deal when it was a deal. And and so he said, actually, you know what the crazy part about it, real talk. We were in this

exact studio, conversed, Yeah, that room right there. We were in this because I was walking down the halls like this the room and he had the conversation Aboutkaye and so so anyway we're talking and he says, yeah, I think he signed it on Friday. I said, what are you talk what's the deal? And so so he's like, I don't know all of what it is. So I knew who his lawyer was, and he's like, we'll call her, and you know it has been signing. Maybe we can

figure something out. I'm like, heated a g right, So because it happened really fast, apparently, and so I'm hitting the lawyer, hitting the lawyer, and she finally hits me back Sunday night and she says, John, the deal is done. He hasn't signed it, but he's signing it tomorrow. Furthermore, I'm getting married next weekend and I'm not negotiating another deal. I'm not negotiating the whole other deal. I'm like, no, no, no, I could get it done. I can get it done.

So the next morning she said, you can't get it done. The next morning, I wake up. I called Kanye and he sleeps, so I talked to him. He's like, what's up. I say, man, I heard you was doing a deal. I said, listen, you know we always wanted to do a deal. Me ask you something, all things being equal, you roll with me, right, He's like, yeah, I guess. I was like cool, Hunger the phone, I said, can you say? He comes with me? I called it. So

she's heated. She's heated, and you know, I told my legal team to get on it, and I actually gave him a much better deal than the deal he had on the table um. Once I found out the terms, I was like, oh, I know how to do this deal, and I gave him a much more lucrative deal and literally got the deal done in twenty four hours. I got him signed and um and and it's been a great run, you know. And that's the beauty thing, because Kanye is a gene. He don't need no help with music,

no help with anything. But one thing I will feel proud about, you know, because I was building this community. I didn't know it at the time, but I was building a community of songwriters and artists. And so you know, Kanye now he's he's an artist. Now he comes out college dropout. Is it's that record? Right, It's that album? And I get a call from g and he asked me can he can he um kind of doing my favorite I said, what's up? He says, we want to get on this usher tour. I was like, okay, well

what's going on. He's like, yeah, we're trying to get on it, but we're not getting no traction. This is this Can you call call him because we know you're close with him, And like, sure, I call. So I called User's mom, who's managing him the time. I called JP and we're talking and I'm telling her, you know, I really would appreciate if you guys could take Kanye West out on the tour with you, and she was like, I don't know sitting this. I was like, Na, he's

really good. Trust me, this guy is He's the one, and uh So I convinced her and she was like, okay, I'm cool with it. I'm like, okay, cool. Thanks. She's like, no, you gotta you gotta talk to us R now. I'm like, okay, so track us you down. He calls me that night and I'm telling him about Kanye. I said, really, Usher, I really need this. Can you take him out? Like I promise you won't be disappointed? And I remember him

saying to me, is he really that good? John? And I was like, yeah, he is, trust me, and uh he said all right, man, I'll do it. And that that was the first major tour Kanye went out on What's the Usher tour? Um and that I take a lot of pride in that. And I learned a lesson from that too, like when when your friends call you and you can help, you help, because that's what happened

with us. Don't make another great produce you help was Pharrell Um in the beginning, Stay just like you talk about bad deals and stuff, and like you had to get him out of a situation to get him or basically educate him on what's going on with publishing. And for Real is like you know, for Rell is he's a dreamer. You know what I'm saying, and that I am as well. But but like you know, he's so ambitious. It's like, you know, it's just about and this is

what not this is. It is not exclusive to Pharrell, it's with any artist. Is like you wanna if they're going to do something, you want to help them do it the right way if you can help. And that's really what it is with for Real, Like, that's my brother, and we talk a lot about things. He did do one particular situation that I begged him not to do and he did it. Um, he regretted it, but as I say, all things have an exploration day and we was able to come around and fix it, help him

fix it, and he's sitting in a very good place. Now. What's it like working with him and then also seeing him like develop out, you know, being a part of the Superstar Producer duo and then having his own Yeah, I mean, for Real is he's just a songwriter, songwriter. You know, he um, the guy worked so hard. You know, whether it's for real, whether it's Rodney Jerkins, whether it's Jermaine, whether it's all these people, you know, even Dr dre Right and I and I always say to people, it's

no accident of who's at the top. It's just no accident because all of these people that we've talked about a lot of artists today, icons all do different things, right, And I've been able to see from my own two eyes there's one thing that they all do the same. They all outwork everybody else. They all outwork everybody else. And for real, in his heyday, he worked every day. In his days he wasn't so hot, he worked every day. He never takes a day off. The guy just he

just it's in his system. It's in the system. So when he got when it came back around, it was nothing for him. He never stopped. Yeah, you ain't stopping either. But I mean I remember reading that you Brandy in our Brandy's Full Moon album while he was still like the chairman of a publishing couple. I wish I was chairing back there. Yeah, but that didn't take a little long for me. To get there. But best album? Were you still a r An album today? Yeah? I do,

but it's just it's behind the scenes. I don't have to put my name on it. You know what I'm saying. I don't have to put my name on it. It's just, you know, your fingerprints on it. I don't know, it's the artist fingerprints on it. I just do my part. But you know, I m that was a fun experience, you know. And it's funny because that was an album that, uh, I didn't realize for a very long time that it

was as successful and culturally impactful as it was. Um, because we we put a lot of work into that album, and then we shot the video for the first single. You know, I think the song what About Us was written the day before the Twin Towers came down. We were in New York, UM, and I remember Rodney leaving to go to this Michael Jackson show at the Guarden. He had these two shows at the Garden, if I'm not mistaken, but it was it was festive, right, and I think that was the day wrote what about Us

was written? And uh, the next morning the Twin Towers came down. But so she shot the video for what about us? And if the record is going I remember Craig Calvin calling me like, Yo, you did it, thank you for all your work. The record is taking off, and there's this conference call with Brandy. I'm like, okay, So we do the conference call. She gets on the call,

She's like, hey, guys, how are you doing? And and Craig has given her all the info on the album, this, this, and this, and she told her she was pregnant and I was like, WHOA, Like I had never been through that before, you know what I mean, never been through that, never experienced it. And and you know, so she shot Full Moon the them I mean the video pregnant, right,

and uh, but she didn't get to promote the album. Yeah, she didn't like she would have, right, And so I just kind of moved on from it because I just thought it just I just thought we missed. And then now you see how people have. Yeah, what happened was a couple of years later I started bumping into people and they were like, yo, you did Full Moon. I was like, I'm like yeah, And so I called Randy Jerkins and I said, right, you know the craziest thing happens to me. I said, people come up to me

and they just go crazy about the full Moon. Now he said, you too, and so so we started talking and I said, right like, we did a classic and we didn't even know it. We didn't even know it because you know, it was successful. It was successful, but not nearly as successful it would have been if she was able to be you know, go go and do her thing. But listen, something better came into her life.

So it's all good. But but it was that moment of like, you know, and people people like they say what you say that, Like Chauncey Bills to this day tells me full Moon is like one of his favorite albums. Yeah, brother, he says, full Moon is one of his favorite albums. And I didn't know what. We didn't know it at the time. J told me that your audio file, I don't even know what that means. Yeah, my system is

nuts wi Wilson speakers and stuffing. Yeah yeah Wilson, Oh wow, yeah Wilson audio speakers, Like I got a I got the best sound system in the music by far is to be getting on mad. They'd be hearing it through his speakers. They'll be like, I got to change that. Yeah, I have the best audio system than anyone in the music business by far by It's not even close, I promise you. And I haven't even seen everyone's office, but I know they haven't put what they when I put, uh,

when I put into my sister mix. Yeah, and listen to music is the music? Like you know what I'm saying, Like you know, like I always tell people that I can't wait to hear it. I said, listen, if it sounds bad, it's gonna sound bad coming out of these speakers. Like it doesn't. It doesn't. My system is very neutral. It doesn't at anything right. It just plays what's there. So if it's a bad mix, is gonna sound like a bad mix. That makes one last note he allowed

me to share this. He said, you necessarily love the apes Ship mix, for example, like you talk about like how important mixing is and how somebody loves sound like yourself. Stickler. Yeah, yeah, I um, I didn't it though I didn't great record, I just didn't. I didn't think the mix was great. I didn't think the mix was great at all. What

makes it great? Mixing your outside of it. I mean it's like, I mean, a great mixes one I don't have to comment on, you know what I mean, like like it's just that's just it, Like it's not about it's not about like, oh this is now you do hear certain mixes were like, well that song is mixed really good, But it's not about that. My My my thing is the glasses always have full with me. So it is when something is half empty or not great, that's what I comment on. So it's not about what's

a great mixing. To me, the great mix is the one I don't have to comment on. You just want to find something. That one is just it came right before right after Summer, like in that Summer is just mixed like perfect, right. I mean, that's might be the best mix on the hour. It's like and it comes right after that, and I was just like, man, this

mix sounds so muffled and whatever. You know, listen, people wish they could have a mix like but for me, we said one of those moments too, Like we talk about those iconic moments and or how records have those magic moments, and like a certain point when Beyonce's rapping, she just takes into another's zone like anything she does just another song. That's just how that's how she approaches the game. You know, Like it's just like I said, the mixes, I don't love it. He's right, I don't

love it. I don't love it. Do you have favorites that you do love, like favorite songs like from I guess the artists that you have or um? Yeah, like All Little Lights is my favorite Kanye West song. Great, that's a great mix. Yeah, I mean, that's a great everything to me. You know, that's the song that solidified Kanye is probably the best producer in the game. That

artists side. It's a great song, but artist side, and if you understand everything that's going on in that song, how many people are on that song and how he pulled that together for this special moment. But it was to me, that's the slam dunk moment of like, I'm the best producer here. The production is incredible. It's incredible. Um, what else? Like Lose Yourself is my favorite eminem Records. That's a great I commented on Twitter. I said that

hook is it's so wordy, but it's just so poignant. Yeah, it's a great record. Yeah, And wordy hooks usually don't work, you know what I mean? Wordy hooks usually don't work and it's just too much going on, right. You know. It's a song that um Andy Gibb had called ever Lasting Love, but it's so many words in that hook, but it works. One of my favorite songs, and Verry

GiB is one of my favorite songwriters. But I met Barry GiB before and I said, what were you thinking about when you when you What were you on when you wrote that song? He said, probably something the special, But that's one of my favorites. Um. I mean, I like all music, like Landslide is my favorite Fleetwood Max song, you know what I mean. Queen Bohemian raps he is probably one of my favorite songs of all time, you know,

Like I just I like all types of music. You know, somebody was saying I was a concept with saying that they love the Travis gy Sickle Mode was kind of like Bohemian raps it in a sense like a hip hop and I don't know about that, but I want to tell you this. I will tell you this is I was in the studio with Travis and he was playing me songs and he plays Sicko mood. I don't know what it was the name of the song at the time, and I was like, that song is hot.

And then I made him playing the song like three different times. I was like, that's that's song. Is the best song you played and I didn't know that was sick on Motive time. And then the album comes out, I said, that's the song in the studio. So you have those moments, I don't. I don't work with Travis, you know what I'm saying, Like those those are those moments where you feel when you go to different companies,

people go with you. Man. Yeah, I don't know. Man, Like talking about that later, you're trying to stop some business here if you're just looking bright though, the future is definitely looking bright. But I can say I give. I was in the student with Swiss Ones recently actually, and uh he's playing his album Yeah for me and jams really good. It's really good. So he's like, the tenth song he plays us, it's this song with Young Thugs. It's coming out. He called me yesterday. I spoke to

me yesterday. He said it's coming out Friday. But I'm like, that's the best song on your album and he was like, oh no, just this and y'all, I got this other record. I said, those songs are good, but that's the best song on your album, like you Got Young Thucks sounded amazing running on, No, no, it's it's and you we heard it. It's incredible. And so we're going on and on. Jamaine is talking to him and I remember at one point saying the Swiss, I said, do you know how

much people pay me for this information? Like give me it to you for free? At uh It's funny because I see John Tay Austin was in the studio as well, and I've just seen John Tay at a concert and he came to me said, do you know how much people pay me for this? It was an ethnic night and it was an ethic night in the studio. Another ethic night is going to be in October eleven before we get out of here. So what's going down on October level for people that don't know, I'm receiving the

Spirit of Life Award from City of Hope. Um, it's like the highest honor in the music business and an executive can achieve. And uh so they chose me this year, and that's and that's great, it's the award and everything, but really, what City of hope Is is a cancer research center and they do a lot of great things and they work in the cure type one diabetes as well, which my son actually has. And um, so we're raising

a lot of money. Um. You know a lot of my friends have come together to help me to help celebrate the evening but also helped raise some money, you know for RELI is hosting the event. Um. Uh, Jay is performing, I'm Jay is presenting and uh and that be It's performing, you know Mary Mary's performing as well. Um. As I signed them back in seven maybe night on

whatever it was, but I signed them. Warren Campbell is one of my first song writers I signed, and that's the producer and I'm going over the house signed them, and so it's important for me for them to be a part of the show as well so people see the journey. You know. It's amazing. How do you find that balanced because you're still like very behind the scenes, right, Like how are you dealing with the attention with stuff like that? But you always like try to keep a balance.

Not so well, Elliott, before we go, Yeah, that's so well. I mean this is um. You know, I enjoyed being behind the scenes, you know, uh, you know, I always tell up, they say. People always ask me why I don't do more, you know, because I obviously can. But my view is there's only one star in the room, and that's the star. That's how I roll. Appreciate, appreciate being part of the role. Come through here man. Absolutely, yeah, thank you, it's BacT man, Big John, thank you, thank

you sir for success. Right yeah, I