JoJo

to figure R and B lies out. Without further ado, I'm gonna stop talking about it and introduce you being her Hio. What a warm welcome. Thank you for Cheers to you, Cheers and money. Thank you so much. This man has me drinking at eleven a m. Here we go. Do you offer me a beverage? I said, yes, we are having a morning refresher. Okay, we're starting the morning off right. UM. You you chose to dive into the tequila. That's pretty dangerous. But I'm gonna let you rock understand

what I'm saying. UM, I want to start off with this. You Normally we like to start off at the very beginning, which we're going to get to UM. So first, it's thank you for coming. It's my pleasure anytime this conversation is super important and super needed. Your your our favorite UM. But then I want to go I want to go here, and then we'll go backwards. Okay. I remember us being in the studio when you were when you were younger, much younger, And I remember I had this song, this

four on the floor song around the world. Yes, taking his around the world, taking his glowstick. Listen. I always have, always have glow stick ambitions always. That's that's just me. And I remember going back and forth with you about this song, and and it got to the point to where you were in tears because because in transparency, I'm saying this white girl can really sing. Let's take advantage of of all of this, the crossover, the all of this and all of that. And you were saying to me,

I'm a so singer, I can sing. I'm not anything but a singer. Don't box me in here, don't box me in there. I just want to sing from my heart. And you cried about that. That sounds very unbrand for me, and you fought, you fought to be authentically you period, point blank, and we were at odds. Then I understood it later, and I'm proud of you for taking that stance and continuing to just be yourself authentically and unapologetically. Well,

thank you for um saying that. I really appreciate that, and I want to throw it right back to you, and thank you for just being an example to me, being a safe male figure in my life who was so encouraging you. You pushed me lovingly and and I always looked up to you and I still do. And I am very emotional these days. I think, man, and

this is what I come back to. But really you you you taught me so much in the studio and just through living your life and the classiness in which you navigated the situation that we were both in with our former label and everything. So I just had the utmost respect. And I'm sorry if I gave you a hard time with that record, because now looking back on it, I love that song. I love that sample. But of

course hindsight wouldn't have changed my life. We don't we don't know, but you make dope ship across the board, regardless of genre. It's really really cool. Well, thank you, and yeah, it's a little to you and he still still um. So, as we like to do on the R and B Money Podcast, we like to go all the way back to the Kenning. Okay, we want to go yeah, yeah, let's go back when the first person said, or you first realize, oh I got something, or or

they say to you, you can really sign. So apparently I started singing when I was two. That's what my mom. That's the story. You know. I don't remember. I can barely remember what I did yesterday. So but I've been singing for as long as I can remember. And my mom and dad were both singers in their own right. So my dad was like a Blues Brothers type singer, like the Blue Sheet, you know, I mean that was

his like aspiration. He would play the harmonica, the guitar, and he loved getting more of a soulful bluesy expression. And then my mom was more operatic church soprano. And so both of them I think recognized in me, oh, like she she has what what we have? And then maybe as I got a little bit older, maybe three four, I would start bringing family. If they would come over, um or if anybody would come visit, I would like take their hands and and like sit them down and

be like and sing. You know. So I got a good reaction from that. And I don't ever remember a time that I wasn't singing, that I wasn't performing. It was like a very precocious, slash annoying thing that I was constantly doing. So it wasn't an It wasn't like the parents saying coming I watched my kids. That's not how I remember it. As soon as you walk in the door, yes, hey, hey guys. Yes, I just wanted

to gather people around. What were some of the first songs you were singing as a kid, Winnie the Pooh, you know, the Barney theme song. But then a little later, I really did love I was drawn to seul So, Aretha Franklin and Edda James like I loved her Matriarch of the Blues album, and George Benson was on Broadway by the top pot. By the time I was like five years old. I think I was singing. They said, neon lights up right, oh bro Way. I believe it

was about five. I mean I sounded insane. I sounded so crazy. When I look back to videos, I'm like, why did you let me pursue this. I was so bad, but I had so much. You know, you wanted it, you really wanted it. I really loved it, and I felt like it was something that made me special. And I think that as an only child and someone whose whose parents are fighting, there's a lot of tension in the house, I think I needed something that was an escape and that made me feel like people could focus

their attention on me. So is your is your discovery moment, like your moment of hey, this can go somewhere, you know, further than where you know, this can go past Massachutes? Is that? Does that moment happen in Massachusetts? Yes? Actually so that. I saw a newspaper like on the table and it was like the Boston Globe and there was audition section in the back, and I saw the kids say that darnedest things was auditioning again. I was like

scouting my own what is that that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, And it was like just like a kid saying like something so random that makes you laugh and you know what I mean? And she's like, it's really the ship that kids say when cameras ain't on, you catched him put them over. That's what I remember that that's that's a perfect description of it. So me and my mom loved the show, and I saw that they were going to becoming da Faniel Hall in Boston. I'm like, Ma, can we go to Faniel Hall? But it was very

president today, so she was able to take me. You know, she was cleaning houses for a living and she was a single a mom, and we were, you know, just really getting by. But she she did allow somehow to take me there and and I got to be on

the show. So that changed my life because then they invited me back on a second time and flew me and my mom and dad, who were like divorced at the time, like not working with each other, but it was so meaningful to me that they could be uh okay with each other for just a few moments to come support me in California. We all came together for the first time and and then I did kids say that Darna's things again when I was about seven, singing, Yeah,

I was doing impersonations. I was doing like Share and Elvis and Aretha Franklin and um other people who I can't think of. So it was like a combination of impersonation and just being the little little weird little ship that I was. That's crazy. You flew to l A at seven. Yes, so that was my my first time seeing this, this place that that I that we all now reside in. Did that make you say, hey, I have to be in this place or did I just say,

you know, I know that there's opportunity. I know that star. It felt like, Okay, I'm supposed to be acting on television. I should be on a Nickelodeon show. I should do the thing that like kids stars do. Because I was already in theater as well. I had done like I got my first check from a professional musical in Boston, and so coming to l A, I was like, oh, this is where the kids who really work are. And I really wanted to work. Um now through therapy and stuff.

Maybe it's because I felt the financial insecurity in my house, and I'm like, maybe this is something I can do to help. So now through obviously looking at things from a different lens, I'm like, why did I want to work so bad? So you weren't being pushed by your parents at all. It wasn't so no like mamajer stage parents. That's not how I remember it. Uh, And she if anything, was apprehensive and scared of this this assuredness that I had. I was so focused. I was like, yeah, I like animals.

Maybe I could be a vet, but like I want to be a singer. So she was just like, where did this come from? And what do I do with this? So, so you get your check? When is the break? When is it? Like you are absolutely discovered and someone is putting paperwork in front of you and your parents and you guys are trying to figure all of this newness out. Will I ever go to school again? Getting real? Exactly? Strangely enough, I'll just give you the cliff notes of this.

But when I was like ten, I went to one of those summer concerts like that the radio stations put on so Kiss when I wait is the pop station of Boston. I met Britney Spears that day. I sang my way through the security guards like I was like, hey, I want to meet Brittany um, you know, with my mom obviously and another person I had called in to win the tickets. I was very like enterprising in that way. So met Britney Spears. Long story short, she and Larry

Rudolph tried to sign me to her production deal. She was going to start her own thing. That was when I was ten. My mom said, no, you're too young. I was like, you're trying to ruin my life clearly. So at eleven, I was being bullied. So did you say that you're not gonna let me sign this is what you're telling me about to say? You probably got said mom, you're just trying to ruin well white kids. I could not say that. I could not be like. She'd like, you're gonna get what you guess. You're lucky.

I never know she's doing it back there, you drugs. So so that happened. She said I'm too young. I was being bullied really badly in school and I was in the guidance counselors all the time just crying surprise. But at eleven, we moved to California, stayed with a cousin that my mom had for pilot season because we were going to like pursue that that whole thing. Give them, give them, give them some context of pilot season so people know pilot sees. Everybody that don't come to l A,

they don't know what that means. Pilot season is when all the different shows, whether they're new or they're coming back for another Oh, yeah, that the pilot. So new shows are casting and it happens during a certain period of time. I don't know when, but I think it might be like January, and there's like an exodus of of of kids, people who are coming to l A, staying at a place like the oak Wood or wherever.

But we were fortunate to have a cousin who lived in Lahabre, so I did musical theater while I was there. I was enrolled in the school, and I also got a pilot called ned To Classified School Survival Guide, which was the show on Nickelodeon that I ended up not I know, And so I got that pilot, but then did a show called America's Most Talented Kids at the same time, lost to a violinist. Mario Lopez was hosting the show. I think unless that was another talent thing

I did. But UM lost and ended up meeting James Womack, who was a manager at the time. He was in the audience and he was like, I know you, you know, I know you lost this one, but that means nothing in the scheme of your life. Like I see a feat I see the potential in you and I want to take you around to some people. So I'm like, okay, I mean my life. As soon as you get stage

for him, He's like, you're you really got something. So he took me and my mom kind of under his wing and ended up introducing a Stevens and Herbert who ended up being my executive producer of my first two albums and Yes, so and when is this what? Years two thousand three, So I was twelve, yes, or or at the end of my eleventh year. So we we

went around to a lot of different labels. More so, I think it was Vincent who was taken a surround of different labels and he had a UM, he had a production company, m hmm, so he was also making the decision of where would he want to bring his

production company that I would be signed to. So met with a lot of different labels, got flewed out to like, you know, different like to Vegas to meet with the maloofs and two Alabama to meet with like another business person who was starting something UM and then we ended up going with Blackground, which was so signed with them when I was twelve years old, and then ended up moving to New Jersey to start working on my first album. You were in l A when you got signed, exactly,

and then you moved to Jersey. Where do you move to Jersey? That's a great question. That's where That's where their offices were. We were, we were, we were year So it's very much in New York. And another thing that I do think is that the child labor laws are are less on the on the East Coast, so I think it would have been really particularly hard for me to even stay at the studio late in l A. Things like that. It's just a little more lenient. Remember

at that time. I remember that time. I remember because I've known Evince for a really long time and in the music business we all crossed paths multiple ways in different times of our our careers. And I remember him telling me verbatio, I'm putting everything I had behind this little girl. What are you talking about? What a thing to say. I think I think I might have met the studio because this was yeah, it was yeah, two thousand three whatever. Yeah you said under dog days. Yeah,

it's under dog days. And I want to say he brought you by um And he was like yeah, because I think I said I had known him, you know, for a while, He's like, yeah, yeah, everything I said, everything that risk. But that's what in this business. If you're not willing to risk everything you have behind something, you should not be in business with it. Are them or you know, I mean whatever whatever it this is, whatever the thing is that you're attaching to, if it's

if it's a person, place or whatever. If you're not willing to invest everything that you have into somebody, let them go to someone who will. That's good, yeah, because there are so many ups and downs in this business, and all we have is our time. All we have is our time. I get I guess your money. You can go throw some money at something, you can throw it out the wall. But like giving somebody your life to to further their career, you have to really see something.

And he saw it. I remember, he don't know what he played me, but I was like, I've never heard a little girl saying like that in my time. This is what I'm this is what I'm saying. He believed in me, changed my life, changed me, gave me a sense of purpose, direction, and it really helped to crystallize what Jojo, who Jojo was, and who Jojo is, because before that I'd been Joanna. He's the one who you know called me Jojo and that's where that came from.

So he Yeah, I mean I definitely felt that belief, and that belief moves mountains that really can, and it did. Yeah, was right there on the verge of getting benched. Yeah, I was getting benched at the time. Put Joe Joe in. Jo Joe came in through a touchdown and they were like, you're never getting back. So you're who's the guy that the Tom breestre not Drew Brees, but you god sitting outside the labor look at any like, I'm not injured anymore, not hurt. I can still play. You want me to play,

That's okay. I got benched later to um, you know It's what I can say about that is that, you know, I think we have some some maybe dark memories of that place we were in. But you know, always, you know, I'm always a glass half full kind of guy, and I'm always like, let's find the light in this dark situation. Let's find the thing. Um, I'll be ready shoot everybody, everybody. And he'd be like, he'd be like, no, no, Chief, I'm telling who's gonna be all right? Yeah, Yeah, that's

that's the office, right. I'm what I'm trying to like, what I'm trying to before went to shoot um is that I just what what I always go back to, what I always try to stay focused on and pull from that moment, is that there would have been no me. I feel the same without black Ground. I feel the same way. That's that's just how I live in that space. I remember when when we put out Freaking and it just it wasn't doing. It wasn't giving. It just wasn't

giving back. In two thousand, it wasn't giving. You could have had that turn back in no, no, we need let's get rid of that, and it translates tru and Joe Joe and didn't work. I'm saying that too. And we shot this, you know, five thousand on a video and cooking. We were cooking and Barry Hankerson, in the midst of this not working, walked over to me and said and said, I'm taken over from here. We gotta you gotta hit record. I'm gonna make sure you have

a hit record. I'll take care of you from now. And sure enough, sure enough that maybe I deserved drop and he did not let nothing fall by the wayside, all of it, all of it, all of it. So that as a powerful man, honestly the self like you alluded to, there were dark times and you know, things that didn't go the way that we wanted them to. But I can't help but look fondly at him for for how I saw him, particularly as a preteen teenager.

He was an uncle figure to me. I looked up to him absolutely absolutely, you know, I was like, Oh, everything's gonna be okay, So I I have I have a lot of love for him. Still it's in a weird way, do you know what I mean. I understand what you're saying. I'm in the same boat. And it's like, you know, even like even being you know, I kinda I kind of got beside myself and went into a space to where it created a different kind of friction. But you know, I was old money, you know what

I'm saying. I was. I was hungry, My family was hungry, and so you know, I with someplace that I shouldn't have gone, but I didn't know what else to do. So even in that space of two thousand to to two thousand seven, where you know, like I said, I was sitting on that bench, you know, out of whatever situations that he heard or or or you know, whatever made him want to tap back in to be a part of sex, loving, pain and and and make sure that we had a hit record. I'm saying, I'm saying

I watched that. I watched him make watching. I watched him built that record. Shout out to Eli McCoy as well, from from three spins to three thousand plus. I watched it. Go into that office over there off a loyal canyon. We'll go there every other day and just say how we're doing, what we're doing. We need to make these calls. Don't worry about a Texter. We're gonna get it, Eli saying that very safe. Yeah, Elis sit in the room by herself. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna figure this out.

Don't worry about Texter. We don't get that was very his name from Texter. Don't worry about Texter. But so all that to say is, um, what a place right? What a what a what a way to I guess be tried by the fire that I love that phrase and I think that's the perfect representation of that. Yeah, so I'll ask you guys as someone from the outside of that because I never I never worked with Black Ground. I don't, I didn't. The only thing I know is, you know, third person, but I asked from the business

side and time. So because from the outside, it's like, Okay, the success comes, the music is great, like your first album, we're planting them out the gate right, your first album, second like double triple, like you're doing numbers. And obviously then you run into the label conflicts. But now a new artist may look at that it's like, oh, well, if they hold up my music, I'm gonna just stay

on the road or i'mna. Just at that point in those years, there's no social media, so I'm sure that time is different and what you can do and how

you can move around. But you know, I think it's always like it's great to hear both of you guys, story of of of how you like you said, just what you went through at that time, but how you're so appreciative of the opportunity because you hear so many artists that are just purely on some they sucked me over and this that now there and nobody did this and if I didn't, But I don't see or hear that when I talk to you guys, I see and hear both of you saying no, this opportunity lead me

to period. I think it's really important to look at various sides of of something and not everything is terrible. Like I am sitting here in your mansion because we are both sitting here because because of the platform that we were given. If if Barry, Vincent, Joemo, whoever, didn't choose Leave get Out as my first single, I don't think I would be I would have never because, like as you know, I considered myself a soul singer, so this was very out of my will, my wheelhouse. I

wouldn't have constructed that for myself. It literally gave me a foundation in which to build from and and then to follow that up. To have the opportunity for Billy Steinberg to pitch me a record like too Little, Too Late and me to be like, that's the song I want to be my single, and and Vincent to be like, yeah, you're right, okay, you're learning that. You know, it just

wouldn't happened. So I just think it's important also, what what are we doing if we're living with such um one sided perspective of the world, and if we have hate in our hearts, I still have pain. I still have a lot of pain and a lot of disappointment, a lot of I'm very sensitive to things, to people's like all of that. So that's where the tears come, that's where the you know, the tension comes from. But but I don't want enemies and I don't like if I I just don't see the point of that, do

you know what I mean? I want to be on good accord with everybody and to take accountability too, for accountability is everything. So as it pertains to the time between my second album and when I turned eighteen, nobody knows what I was going through in my family life. And I'll probably say that for for a book one day, because that was more deeply painful than anything that was going on with the label and my mom was managing me.

That was a very interesting experience. And so it's not just somebody's fault, it's not just this person's fault, it's not just my fault. Things culminate for a perfect storm or a you know, things culminate and come together in a unique way, and I think it's important to like dissect it all. I love that I love that. That's that's that's amazing. It's amazing that that you can see it that way. I wouldn't be able to be here. If I couldn't see it that way, it would be

too heavy on you, too heavy. I would have gotten way deeper into depression. Yea, beverages exactly. Whatever druvable I always like went to the edge because I was sad and depressed. I never fell off the edge, and that's only by the grace of God. I don't know how to explain it other than man, hallelujah um um. So the record, yeah's let's let's not want the success of it though before you complete, I don't mean to cut you off about the success of being fourteen years old

having a platinum record. Yeah, Like who wrote get Out so Soul? Shock and Carlin with a producer and then like he has the word white in his name, like whitey or something. I cannot think of the because I wasn't there for the writing of it. It was already created. I was twelve when I recorded. People in the comments, they're going to tell us who Okay, yes, they stayed trying to correct me. That's why I was suspended, right I'm back. Now, everything's gonna be all right. But so

you're you're fourteen years old? What do you do when you get a platinum record at fourteen? It's got a pizza in your feet. Let's keep diving into and you did you know your your fee goes up show? Because because you didn't know your I mean I probably knew it at the time. I don't know it now. I'm just saying, but you don't know what it was. Right, what I'm saying. Your fee goes from let's use what's what's the girl? Now? It goes from from four thousand

and fifteen thousands? Oh yeah, yeah, we just heard about that. Yeah, she's example in three weeks. So you're gonna love it. I know you. So you're gonna she goes from four thousand a show to fifteen twenty thousand a show, like two weeks. It has to call the people and say, my fault, we made a mistake. How big change if you need me to show up? So now you were, you know, fourteen, and and the money is different. How

does that affect were you touching the money from? Okay? No, the money went into a Coogan account until I was eighteen, which means that you know, it's that from what I understand, that was created like around the Shirley Temple time or maybe maybe later, but to protect children from being exact money got to But yeah, yeah, go ahead. You did you get your I did get mine, But tell us the story. Serious? Wait, so you were working again? Take lugging? Yeah, I have a go I was not people the people.

The people came from mind people care like restitution or some ship kes my my my mom was was handling that. And then I had an agent and uh you know that whole thing and business manager. So I wasn't really I was not a where it was their teen You're not aware? So were you aware of the difference in uh in just your presence? You know what I'm saying, because as you're as you're starting to do work and and go to these shows, go to the mom anymore. But then then I realized I'm quite famous. You did

you ever run into the podcast kids that was billing? Yeah? I remember. You know what I want to know. Listen on my fourteenth birthday, leave get out of Timmy, I see you security. Timmy is my uncle planned this really great birthday for me. My fourteenth birthday in Foxbro, which is where you know the Patriots play, yeah, which is where a lot of my family lives, and planned this party at like the VFW. I don't know if from the Northeast knows what I'm talking about, so um shout

out to Willia mcganni's real quick. That's my big dog from from the From so through this fourteenth birthday and I just remember everybody in the town trying to get in and I was like I came out. I remember that there were these girls who were mean to a friend of mine and mean to me, like who like tried to throw me in a locker and like tried to who did throw me in a locker? You know? Who just had me in the guidance counsels and they

wanted to be at my birthday. And I was like, there was a security guard out there and I'm like, tell them, they can't get in, and he was like, you can't get in, and I was like, so that made me feel good. You can't get in. You can't get in. You can't love slogan. Can't sit with us, you can't that's the new you can't sit with it. You can't get in if your mean, hey, kids, there should big consequences and repercussion. You might be your classmate

might be Jo Joe. It's giving karma. Yes, wow, So you felt it that that was the highlight of the platinum record that also, you know, the the TRL, you know, all of that. Going to New York, Like that was such a cool time for me because first of all, I was the youngest of my of my peers of that of that like time that that music was being put out and stuff. I felt like such an outcast

once again, kind of like I was in school. I just felt like, oh, where do I fit in because I'm a baby, Nobody wants to hang out with me because everyone is eighteen. Plus Sierra was coming out around the same time, but she was eighteen, so I felt like so uncool. Even though people were like, oh my god, you're so cool, I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm so embarrassing. You could take full advancee no, no, no no. So but I did feel that, yes, I was famous. People

liked my music. That was cool. My songs should be playing on the radio. And I was like, wow, okay, like everybody who made fun of me funck off. You know, look at me, I'm at the Kiss concert playing it now like that was exciting for me. But as far as the money, I had no idea and neither did my mom particularly, so we we just w 's on the pizza. So we went from being poor to then having money and being like whoa, Like what do you? Did?

You know how to deal with it from not losing your mind because you watched so many kids stars not know how to manage the power that they have now because the brain winner has power no matter how old you are exactly. So did you ever have a moment where you kind of either had to tell yourself or I'm tripping or somebody had to like grab you by it by the arm and say, hey, you're still fourteen.

My mom my mom would always kind of pop the my inflated head and you were having moments, Oh, definitely having moments because there was always this threat of even though there was already momentum in my career, always the threat from her of I'm gonna, I'm gonna tomorrow You're you're not doing this, you know, you're taking you out of the industry, just if she if I didn't do something that she liked. So there was that that kind of vibe. But then to that, I would say, I

paid the bills. You know, we're having that conversationslutely. I keep the lights on here. Wonderful. I can only imagine, I can only imagine squirrel and we did. Yeah, and fourteen years old picked on But now she's fought our way out doing this Spanish. That was really good. Um, I know he speaks. That is incredible. You said you had to really like you had to square I mean later into my later into my teenage life. Yeah. Again, there were a lot of different dynamics at play, so

that was wrong. If I had a child and they tried to do me like, definitely react in a different way. But everybody's doing the best they can. So yeah, there was a there was a lot of There was a lot of friction, and I definitely had inflated sense of self because I felt like, you, you know, you're getting to live comfortably because I'm I'm working. So maybe that's not the way to look at it, but I was like, you're driving Alexus now and you saw that, you saw

the difference, you saw the difference in your life. You realize that it was because of your work, because of my work, her sacrifice, her her absolutely, her giving you her time to support me. Is it almost a thing where you just kind of want your voice to matter more, not necessarily that you want your voice to be the voice? Yeah? Is it just you, Like listen, I have some texts, I have some perspective on this, like I should be

uh my perspective and my voice should be accepted. Like look, yeah, I think it was always that I kind of wanted, Um, I wanted to work more. Yeah. So so she she wanted me to be a kid, and I didn't want to be a kid. I already felt like I wasn't a kid already. You've always been in the old soul. Yes, So when you look back on that, do you wish that you would have been a little more of experienced being a teenager and a kid that you can't be

any voice. We're grown now. Yeah, I do think that would have been a good thing for me as far as like relationally, learning how to relate to people in a better way. Like I missed out on trying to give you balance. She was trying to give me balance. Um, And I hear what you're saying, mh. But again, a lot of different things play. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I get it because I grew up in the industry. I grew up, you know, singing in really early age

and not experiencing much of a childhood. My father, you know what I mean, Like you know, like he was practic. Yeah, like we were. We were for we were for grouping, and it was we thought we were going to be the Jacksons, and it was rehearsal and rehearsal, and even if you quit the group, you still got to rehearse. Like this, Ship don't don't make sense because because pretty much it was just like you're not quitting, you're not quitting, and this is what's going to get us out of here.

So I understand. I understand that dynamic. And I and I and I had a moment when we when we were when our album was out, Like I got my record deal when I was nine or ten or something like that, and I remember going and performing and before I even sang my part, they started screaming and I was like, oh, Ship, feel like I'm cute. They like

what you're saying. Everybody, all right, everybody you heard of I had that moment, and but obviously I was in the group with my brothers who were five years older than me. They were twins, and they just beat me up pretty much after like yeah, you look punk, Like no, that's not how I go. But that kind of kept me, you know, at least in a space where I didn't

lose it. And then we just you know, are you know are we have some other stuff that went on in our group, so it never fully research full potential. So I don't know how I would have reacted at ten eleven would have platinum, So can't imagine, you know what I mean. So that's why I asked, right. I think it was a kind of a bit of a conflict because people would encounter me, or at least I thought I was presenting as people would be like, how are you so grounded? How are you so down to earth?

But then my mom was like, you're acting like a little bit, and I'm like, you know what, I'm very confusing, well because it's like your interaction or your it's always like that, like you're in the safe space. You know what I'm saying. You like, I keep but you know, for some reason, just clicks when you cross that threshold you turned into the professional. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, you're acting very early. Yeah, you're already. Yeah,

you already. You already knew how training and the two league. You already know how to get right in line and be a pro in whatever space you need to be in. I guess. Yeah. So you had the people out here thinking you was like, she's so sweet. Yeah, but even who has worked with me forever, she used to be a black manager, and I mean she was like, I thought, She's like, you were a piece of work, Joe, And I'm like, I'm sure I was. I'm sure I was. So let's let's move after UM. We don't have to

get into the intricacies of um, of of the separation. Yeah, mixtape Joe, Joe. Yeah, but let's get into Okay, now I'm able to breathe. Are you in l A at this time? Mab Yes, So I moved to l at nineteen. I was in Boston from eighteen to nineteen, moved out here and was just in the studio, constantly in the studio during the day, partying at night. It was like my college used as your college area. That is this such a dangerous such a dangerous thing. So glad you're here.

It's still a lot. I really think about that. I'm like, how am I here? Here? Was college from me too? For a young girl though? Is wa different? That's way different. I'm grateful that I made it out as unscathed as I did. You know, it could have been a lot weirder. Yeah, yeah, And so what is your process now now that you're you know, out of the blackground situation and you're you're looking for new life and the next move. So I was.

I started putting out a couple of mixtapes and like my Marvin's Room remake and all the stuff during the time where I wasn't out of blackground yet, because I was, they still owned my voice. So I was trying to find ways to put out music but not make money from it. So that's what what like at this point is social media's kick and all. So that's the whole Yeah, please give us that time and what you were doing

to stay relevant. I was just talking with my fans, really telling them to a certain extent, what I was feeling going through, how much I wanted to put out music, how much I wanted to tour, or whatever the case was. I don't really know why I didn't tour that much then, but maybe it's because I didn't have new music to promote um. But then I did some little things with with the mixtape, So Twitter was a game changer for me. YouTube. This was all kind of the precipice of that being

the huge deal that it is now. And I put out my first mixtape through band camp and it had a ridiculous number of downloads first week, which was so encouraging. Like I was like, it gave me, you know, some some just a sense of purpose again. I was like, Okay, this is what I meant to do. I love this. I have an amazing fan base and they're here for this.

They like what I'm doing. So after that, continued to release some stuff, was able to finally get out of the deal with Blackground and signed immediately to Atlantic started working on an album. I was signed by an executive, Aaron Baischuk, who is the A and R there at the time, and we started working on on an album there.

But then, as you know, you know, musical chairs happen, and then you know, this person leaves and then you try to keep making an album that changes direction a little bit, and so that was my experience with the making of Mad Love, which was my official album, like come back after ten years of not putting out an album from fifteen. I didn't realize it was that. And the crazy thing about that is, you know Aaron's first record that he an R Tank, Yes, which we after

a tank. Now I never got off of black, so we did. We did it went to Atlantic. This is Aaron's first time in anything. So it really it was me and Air, Me and Aaron. Aaron don't know shit about Army, Like, no, it's my guy. I love him to death. But at this time, at this point, like obviously he's done amazing things. At this point, young and R young white guy, They're like, yeah, we did a

new deal with Atlantic. Here's your R. I don't know pronounced this night He's like, listen, guys, got a few records, want to play for you. But I really liked that. I think I feel really good for where I think you can go. Here we go. We're looking at like we're gonna turn it out. We're gonna show you how to do that, don't And so that process like we just became friends. We just really hung out and cooked up together. And that's been open and uh and wanting

to learn I think it's complete exactly. It's just it's just interesting that both of you guys come from the same scenario in situation, go to the same label. Yes, get the same and that is really strange. Did you think you're following you? Are you like this little chicken? I don't know what's going on over there, blackground Keeter. But this room over here, if you man, you got if you can just get on that rail road, come

get a home down here. This Atlantic, they got lemonade and business for everybody on this side, out out the shout out the big flot. But it was like he that's he said, there is a small window. There's a small chance, my brother, that you could be out of there and over here. And um, and what's what's my guy? Um? From Atlantic? Um? Craig not Craig Mike um uh be right, producing all the writers and all of that. I'm like, he's gonna he's gonna be mad that I'm forgetting his

name right now. So my Karen was the first person to come to me to say, you know, I think I think you should. I think you should come to Atlantic. And I was like, I don't even know what that means, you know, what I'm saying, and then I'm also saying you shouldn't say that out loud because because because these

people are dangerous, right, should we talk right now? We should use sidlings because he's you know, just I mean just speaking about my path of just going to Atlantic Records and them um showing me, um something at that time that I didn't think I was even worthy of, you know, in saying, you know, sitting down with with Mike Karen and then with um Craig Common and Craig Common saying yeah, yeah, we're gonna do this and we're

gonna do it as long as it takes. I was like, what We're like, Yeah, we're gonna as long as it takes. We're we're in. We're in with you as long as it takes. That's what you deserve, and that's that's what belief is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So does the Atlantic situation are you saying, you know, people change things move, Does that become a staple for you or do you or

do you even move again? From I moved again? Um, so I kind of continue to move where Aaron moved because because Aaron and I were you know, so so tight. He had such amazing belief in me. So as he as his career was on the ascent, he was like, you should just come with me. Um, so I did so, I did so at a So I went from Atlantic, then Warner where I mean somewhere else real quick, where where he made a pit stop, didn't end U putting an album out there, and then to Warner where he

became chairman. So it was just because I really do believe, and this is any artist that is going to be a part of the major label system, having an advocate, having a person there who is your point person who you really speak the same language with, who believes in you, who will go to bat for you, that makes a

big difference. It's also very important obviously for an artist to be self energizing and to stay you know, to be self sufficient, to move the needle forward, to keep going like you can't look too a label to tell you what to do necessarily because that's not how it works anymore. But to have a person there in the building who believes in you. That's why I felt like it was going to be, you know, important for me to to stay with erin So are you putting out

mixed types as you're moving around still, Are you stopped that? No? So I really started touring again with with Mad Love. Mad Love is where I went back to the touring life and was able to sell that out and really get a sense of Oh, I love this part of being an artist. I love to be on tour. I love to be busy. I learned how challenging it can be to maintain a level of vocal health while you're doing three shows in a row and you have one day off and then you might have two whatever. I

learned that that schedule doesn't work for me. I need to have like two shows maximum, then one day off, then two shows. I can do it like that, but that third show if I'm not completely silent like I just you figure out the what works for every particular instant and sticky. So I want to give people my best. So I was like, let's let's change up the schedule next time. So Mad Love is when I got back into that. And then from in between Mad Love and then my next album Good to Know. Um did I

do a mix tape? I don't remember, But after Good to Know, which was then I released like an ep uh because I was going through something and I felt like I wanted to share it with people. I was going through a serious about of depression and anxiety. A lot of people were with the pandemic, but for me, it started before that. Just what what am I? What's next? A lot of us feel that way, and I wanted to put out this project and see if other people

would relate. And it made me feel less alone, and it was a part of my healing to even share what I was going through in that project, which is like the most recent thing I've released recently. Saw you uh San Diego, Yes, that was That was a frustrating show, but it meant so much to me that you and Zena were there. It was frustrating, Yeah happened. If you if you, if we can get get that inside that that venue was um. I was having sound issues. I

was not feeling like outfit. I felt like my my things were showing in a way that I wasn't comfortable with. To be in a venue that small, where people are below you and can see up your skirt, I really don't like that. You were you were you were, you were dressed. I was dressed. I had on an outfit. Yeah, you had it on an outfit, but you know's legs

are out there. Yeah, the legs is out And obviously I don't mind, you know, showing what I want when I want, but I just didn't like people being under me, like escalator you're going because they are clearly going there. So it was just like the configuration. I um so I was like, okay, never again because you change and came back just just put on this two piece jeans.

But that's but that's also a part of professional lesson, yes, because most people think that, and and owning who you are in your career because most people think I just gotta do it and I gotta be out here, and I didn't know what the setup was. But then you get out there you realize like, oh, actually cool, hey guys, I'll be right back and wait for you. Absolutely you

did to change smooth. I tried change smooth because you know, we're backstage and you know, we just no show, you know, we can kind of see everything, and I'm like, and then when you came back and even said it, I just thought it was a change, right, you know what I mean, Yeah, we didn't notice that it was about you know, about comfort and about how you were feeling. As you're explaining right now. I just felt like it was part of the set. Yeah, so that's how you

made it feel until you said it. Yeah, I just had to change guys. You know, jeans feel better, feel safe. Let's keep going. Continue to learn things about myself through through every single day. I learned that I need to feel good about what I'm what I'm wearing when I'm on stage. I need to feel good about how I've prepared. Preparation is is like integral for me. I don't like

to just necessarily win things. And I've learned this through you know, crashing and yeah, no, experience is the best education, it really is. Yeah. So even now you know this, many years in my career, I'm still like, Okay, new thing I've learned about myself. You are so many years into your career and I get this question a lot. Excuse me, what keeps you going? Because as I see you now in it's always some else like You're like,

you're happy, You're like, yeah, you know what I'm saying. Like, as we spoke earlier, everything that I've had to go through to get into this point, I'm with it. You've accepted it, and you've just accepted the light in all of those things, What is that thing in twenty two that is keeping you, keeping you alive, keeping you going. It's my belief that I've only scratched the shirt the

surface of my Yeah. I used to really think um at a certain point that maybe I maybe my voice was on the decline, or maybe you know what, what more do I have to give? I've I've already reached more than I could have ever imagined as a little girl, accomplished beyond my wildest dreams. But I really believe that on the other side of personal freedom is another level of connectedness. And when I'm able to show up as my authentic self, that will inspire other people to be

their authentic selves. And I think that that's now my mission is to be the be a vessel for amazing songs, take my ego out of it, and bring people together, just like I did when I was a little girl, asking family members and friends and people on the street

to listen to me sing. I really think that by me connecting to that pure joy that I get from singing, that can be hopefully a blessing to somebody else and help them connect with what it is that they were gifted with, even if that's just to be a listener, to be part of a community, to be present, any of that. I know that that's my work moving forward, is to to let go, to shed those layers. Like

you said, the glass half full approach. I'm sure you've done work to get to that point, and so the letting go doesn't always come easy, but it's it's a choice for sure every day. Well, I think sharing that is the healing, and it's not just for you, like you said, it's for those who get an opportunity two um, not even just not even just to see you, but to hear you, because you know those those vibrations are wrong.

Yes are are are comforting to some healing, to something helpful, to something you know what I mean, and the stories behind it, which is why you know we really wanted you here to first and foremost give you flowers on flowers, but also two for you to speak you know what I mean, to speak that life into everything that you've been through and everything that you're doing moving forward. I

thank you so much. I think that this time where TikTok is you know where we're getting our news and our information and where where UM find I think what I wanted to say is I think it's a great equalizer. I actually think that authenticity cuts through more so than anything. I think that our attention span is if something feels false, we're like cringeing, weird, you know. So I think that exciting, Yeah, we just move on to the next until something really

hits us and resonates. So I actually think that while yes, it's it can be frustrating and we're like, oh, you know, we have to do this stuff, you can also really find your community. So I think it's a great time to put the hands the power back in the hands of the artists, connect them directly with the community, and you can kind of get a sense of what people like you. Just give it a try, just put it up.

So are so are you looking at all of those platforms as a way too, because obviously, like you said, Twitter was something that was really important for you when you really needed it early, I mean later later on in your career, actually in the middle of your career, and and it really jumped started rediscovery for you. So as an artist in a season artist, someone who's been around and and done the old school music business at a very young age, and now the new age music business.

How do you go about that? Like, how do you manage what's too much mhm? And what's important that you have to be like, because let's be very clear, social media is very important for recording artists. It's very important to let them, you know, get a sense of your personality. Um, tease music, maybe jumping a challenge here and there, you know what I mean, Like, how how how how do you deal with that as someone who is already established and already has a fan base. Do you Are you

jumping at every challenge? Are you just like, uh, I'm gonna do one here, And they're like, how do you go about that? I'm definitely not jumping at every challenge And I'm not like, oh yeah, I'm a blessing with this one. I'm just like, it has to feel like an extension of me. It has to feel like something that I genuinely want to play with or something that I because if it if it comes off forced, like the viewer feels that. And I know that from being

on the other side of it. When I see other artists who will remain nameless, but I see one in my head right now when they're like slanging their music around and they're like, let me shake my ass to this music and let me do a dance this music, and let me blah blah blah, And it does not

feel like they want to do that. It feels like this was a mandate that was put on them as opposed to I think that the way to make social media work for you as supposed to you working for social media is to find how you can be yourself on the app. And there's like so many different ways. Just have fun with it. And and I think TikTok is more low stakes because it doesn't need to be perfectly curated. We used to think Instagram like you have to have like this grid and it needs to be

like color coordinated and all that stuff. TikTok you could just like say stuff, and you can take clips of this podcast and you can, you know, lip sync something, or you can tease a song, or you can shake your ass, or you can try on an outfit. You can do whatever, and then you'll find people who like makeup, who like travel, who like you know, plant based cooking, who like, uh, going to Michael blue bleat concerts, you know, like all these different things. And I just think it's

really nice. Um so of course we've got to do things that we don't like to do, but you got to find a way to to enjoy even something that annoys you. Like when TikTok first came, and you know, my label was like, you've got to push your own music this way, I'm like, how yucky. You've got a fun way to just like to enjoy. I know it's easier said than done for for me too, I mean, because we come from from just music. You just needed music.

And also the mystery was such a big thing, and you could just show up and show people what it is it is. You know what I'm saying. You just show up in the city, Like I told you, I was nice, right. And now it's like now that the labels have done away with sending artists and all of these things that we have now they don't do that anymore,

not as much you can promo your phone. Yeah, I tend to feel like and I really wanted to know that from you from an R and B sense, because obviously we deal with people saying that R and B is dying or it's a dying genre, are whatever the very but what but what I do say that I wish that more R and B artists would get in front of it and get in front of the music and get in front of their personalities because what, you know, what what I what I feel like I found with

my parents generation, and when they were trying to push out jazz, jazz took on a very elitist Oh that's a great point, you know, persona of Oh I'm just too you know, I don't need whatever you guys are doing.

Don't sample my record, you know what I mean? Like they were, they were not clearing samples and just all this other stuff that helped him kind of get phased out, and I personally would hate for that to happen to R and B. That's why Tank and I have even done this, done this podcast, because they're like, listen, we gotta stand in front of what this R and B thing is, and we got to show people that we actually got person analogies, and we're willing to, you know,

have to talk to human resources about some of the ship we gonna say, you know what I mean. But like I said, I'm so passionate about R and B music that I would, you know, I would push artists to just at least give these things to try instead of just being like, well when they when I when I go show up and I do my my shows, they know what they know. Some people don't. I think that is such an amazing point and comparison that you've just made as well, because history is a way of

you know, we can learn from history. And I love history actually, so that was that really excited me. And I love jazz. So I think that's really great, great point because there is a sense I think from my vantage point of this, you know, coolness over everything sometimes in R and B, and I think that that can be sometimes to the detriment of letting fans in um because you want to keep up a facade. I don't

think the facade works anymore. I think that people give still works, gift work still works, but they actually like that hey man, this artist is kind of funny. Are goofy are yes, don't take themselves that serious. Like one of the things that made me fall in love with Ari Lennox is her personality is her getting on I g live and just being in bed and being bored like Summer Walker's exactly like it's I mean, I know more about Summer Walker than I've ever known about and

I'm like, who's you know whatever? Because that song could be about yeah exactly, So we buy into that and it's not a new thing necessarily, but I don't have the way for the biopic anymore. Yeah exactly. It's playing out right in front of us, all right. Well, Um, R and B Money podcasts, Um, we like to get into your R and B mind. Okay, you're R and B makeup right? Um, we would like to know this is it gets it gets interesting right here. Top five R and B Artists of all times. That was crazy.

That was very crazy. I'm going to say something in this Top five y'all are going to agree with me, but the Internet is gonna be mad at me. Okay, okay, okay, I love I love that. Okay. Parameters, no, no time frame, R and B and general yours God, okay, look back for help. No, no, I understand he knows I'm gonna say. Okay, Um, Top five R and B Artists. Okay, where do I begin? Do Do I have to put him in order? No? No, it's yours. Whatever it is, okay, great? No order and

no prep No, this is no this is never prep. Guys. Jasmine Sulliman, come talking absolutely love us. Bobby Brown. You yeah, I hate myself for this, but r Kelly, listen it has I mean, oh no, I hate myself for it coming out of you understand. Just yes, I know you know. Um where do I go from there? I'm going to go to for me personally music, soul music, and then I'm going to go that Jasmine right, you're right up my hands, um ah, gotta you gotta fire. Crazy crazy.

I used to watch music in the studio seeing perfect go over one line for about an hour in the half. That makes me feel that's crazy, okay. And I was like, I was like, bro, you did like thirty minutes ago. He just it just needed to be placed. This is not auto tuned. This is about none of that. He was able Warren Campbell. When I saw him do that, this this line that was you know what I'm gonna This line needs to be placed perfectly. I'm just the millisecond off semi tone to He was just he was

just that much of a technician. People don't really listen to what music was doing vocally on those records. They just enjoy his records and have a good time because they felt so and dissect go back and listen to what he was doing right, So that's crazy. But then Anita Baker is you know Jesus. I mean, she is probably my biggest vocal inspiration right now. She is like my my pinnacle. She's the one I looked to right now. She's just incredible. Okay, all right, your top five R

and B songs? Mm hmm okay, Oh my really really bad being on the spot. So you're gonna do my Um let's let's say something from Joe to See. Let's say like, uh, can I talk to me? I really wanted me and talk to you? Okay, um Man, can't do anything, Joe, you can't. You can't lose anything. You can't lose, so nice to me. Okay, So Joe to See, let's go. Okay, I'm gonna say Cisco Incomplete, Wow, fucking race. That's a great record, great soul. That's the one you wrong.

I feel like that. Jordan Records wrote incomplete. D come on the podcast, yes, shout out not even that's not even play with we have come on our phones here, come on just incomplete? Was fire? Was that the video? Lisa Rabinson? I don't remember the video. I think Lisa, it might have been a red I just made down song when he when he walked over there forgetable. Don't you do this again? That's GREATA you too, Cisco. That's

a great come back with great second song. The third song, I'm gonna go with um one in a million Eliyah. Life changing, Yes, life changing, life change. I'm gonna I want to go to a different era, so let me go more toward like um. I'm like I would say, caught up in the Rapture better, yeah, better? Oh my god, man, I grew up on those albums. That voice right there, it's synonymous with my child. Like they said it your

mama didn't clean the house. Good. If you didn't grow up to Anita Baker, that means your mama didn't not to clean your house. Okay, okay, And I'm going to say that I think a new a modern classic is uh pick up your Feelings. Come on, come on, come on, pick up your feelings. I think it's so good. I love the tempo of it. I think it moves, it moves. It's yeah, I felt the way when I first heard. I was like, that's what she wanted us to do and pick up here. It's so sweet she said feelings

like it was nasty. You're talking to you. That's exactly what I heard talking to him. I'm working out to this album, like this, what is she talking to She's me. But it was so aggressive the way she was saying. And she didn't she didn't um, she didn't scale it down or dumb it down or or anything. She was like, yeah, I'm gifted. Watch this, Yes, gift on display. What a bold choice for the album title too as well. I thought it was so and she's She's like, I don't

even call this an album. I'm like what She's like, this is just a EP anyway. To me, it's perfectionist. She's always been in this kind of shy space like that where I think that I think that we've moved or we were in a space where being talented was very tough, very frowned upon, to be really talented because everything, you know, it's hard for people to take enough time

to understand even what that is. The ears aren't even tuned to, you know, there's a frequency that auto tune and the computer has hypnotized everybody with at this point, you know what I mean? Sing to the Black Keys seriously, just doing that. People I gotta change the settings in the auto nowmatic. But it's like she she I can't speak from having that conversation with her, But I just remember being even in two thousand two where I was like, I'm a singer and these these songs, so these people

that are working they're not singers. Like this is trying, right, y'all know this. If y'all know this, I don't want to be a part of I'm a singer, even all the way down to I did, I did the I did what challenge? I just do was the fortunate challenge and I just you know, I did. I need to check that out, dipping dodge into some stuff and people and there were people it said, that's horrible. He can't he can't even sing you, And I was like, we are living in some wild you can definitely sing. That's

that's not true or fair, that's not true. Again, just the videos I was dancing and didn't work. If that doesn't mean what are you? You don't want this to work with me? Oh man? Anyway? Um, but that's just you know, where we are. And I feel like I feel like she was, you know, just just me speculating her trying to find her her fine room to be talented. She found it, and I don't even think I don't think she realizes what she's done for the creatives. I

hope she does. She's she's she's freed a lot of creatives. She's created an under an overground railroad for people to feel like, oh I can sing, I can actually right some dope ship and sing some dope ship and it go crazy cool. I remember listening to that album. I was on one of my solo journeys in Sedona, and I was taking a walk in the Red Rocks and I was digesting this album and weeping at the freedom that I heard from her as an artist, and just being so inspired and just like so happy for her

made me too. I didn't know what the album was gonna do, and all that it's done is phenomenal, but it was an accomplishment enough to have done it, and I was just like, Wow, this is so great. We're building an R and B voltron. Okay, so it goes vocals style, performance style, and passion. All right, So let's start with the vocal to make your R and B votron? Who are you? Who are you? Grabbing the vocal from one person. I mean, if it's a male, I want

to take period always. Tank is the best smell vocal is out there. Crazy wow. So you know what? You know what, since I'm back off sabbatical, we're gonna cheers to tag me in and he's looking him cry. But because is the time of the woman, I'm going to chose the lad and I'm gonna choose Jasmine. Start there, take it, Start there. Vocals from Jasmine Sullivan easy something gets the same background, will gladly do? Give me a piano too, so I can play extra keys, background, singing backgrounds,

and play keys. Just let me know whenever you're going out. Um, let's go with the styling. Who do you want your artists to look like? Dress esthetically? Who're gonna put the drip on? M damn? Who don't have to look like Beyonce? Come on? Yeah? Custom yeah everything special, everything special everything. Wait, do I want to look like Beyonce or Solange? I don't know because both are customs special? Different is very fresh.

I think Solange. I think Solange is very she She has this earth earthy thing too that's very organic that I think. I know the bees want to get me that. I think b might have gotten from her. I think they're both inspired by some way, in some way shape, because I felt like Solange was in my mind, out of out of their whole thing. She was the first like earthy one who was just like grounded in in these neutral tones and in these linens and this just comfortable,

comfortable space that wasn't overdone or over anything. You know what I'm saying, Like, I feel like she was there. So I mean, you picked which one? Every one you want me, they're all they're kind of wanting the set. Okay, you know what I'm just gonna say. Okay, so voice of Jazz and Sullivan aesthetic of Solange. I love that um performance style. Who stage presents? Do you want to give your volt um? Bobby Brown? Mhm, there's no argue, right,

You're making her one name. Yeah, she's aggressive. Listen. I mean we've I mean I was, you know back there. You know My first concert was you know, the New Edition Any Heartbreak Tour Come On, where one man was given new addition everything they needed by himself with two other dancers. He was giving them everything they needed. I was like, oh my god, he is an animal. He's an animal man. A manimal. Man he was a manimal and maybe at that time. I'm telling you guys, New

England is different. It is. It is. Listen, I pick up agree, Okay, last one, passion. Who do you want to get the heart from? M hm? Yes, I said what I said was passion. I said it almost is painful. First note, you feel it absolutely? I just really really love her. Wow, special Special Special Talent Special said I'm horrible. Listen, listen. She thinks she got off? Yeah no, no, no, let's how quickly using this one because we got a very important segment of the show. It's called I Ain't saying

no names? Yeah yeah, Will you tell us a story funnier fucked up? Oh good. The only rule is you don't say any names, and it could be funny and fucked up because you used the most things that's sucked up. It's kind of funny. So I gotta do is just not say their names. So this is Joe Joe's I ain't saying no names with no prep, no prep. Hmm. Can you give me an example you have told? Did you tell one when I was suspending it? I don't think so, Oh no way, I don't think I told one.

Can you start, please to make me just a little more comfortable. This has never happened in the history of I ain't saying no names like this is. This has never happened. Um, I ain't saying no names. So you put trying to put the pressure on me. This is while you think of yours. I'll see what's going on. I see what's going on. Um, thanks are saying no names. I ain't saying no names. Um, this is funny. I was,

I was. I was beefing with this, with this this one guy like real beef um and started off basketball basketball beef. And I felt like this person wasn't being fair, you know, and we're supposed to be you know, common ground. You know, we're both artists. You know, we're supposed to play the game fair. You know, I'm saying of us played professionally, but the game is at least supposed we played right. And this person didn't want to play the

game the right way. And so since since he didn't want to play the game the right way, I decided I didn't want to play the right game the game the right way with him, and it got aggressive. It went into you know, name calling. I'm a very nice guy, but I had been pushed into that other other other place where now you're a bitch ass niggas. Everybody you went they bit your too, who wanted let's get it all during the game. So the game is over and the game ends, I win, my team wins, and as

they leave, there's still bit chass niggas. Mm hmm. Cut to we go to the city that this person is from, and someone who's with me was like, man, you know such and such would love to just you know, they love you, the big fans. They started, things got weird and such and such, you know, got kicked off, you know, the wrong kind of way. But you know they would just love you to come out to gym, hang out and and and just hoop with him. And I'm like,

fucking bit chass niggas. You know what I'm saying. I'm there. So it takes a little little finessing, a little convincing to get me to go. I'm like, you know what, I'll go, fuck it whatever. And so when I get to the gym, it's just me and the guy who I was with, and it's him, and you know it's him and all you know, all his all his guys, his goons, he's, he's, he's, you know, we're in his city, and I'm expecting you know, I'm expecting some static. You

know what I'm saying. I'm I'm all prepared in my mind to swing first. I'm prepared. But you know what I'm saying, I'm like, it sounded like a piece call, but I'm gonna prepare myself just in case I gotta get actor is what it is, you know what I'm saying. And it's only two of us. We may take the l but I'm ready to take that. So we're walk in the gym, and as soon as we're walk in the gym, this person is like he sees me get called.

He's like, come on, man, you come on. You know I love you, man, come on, we we can't be like this. And as he goes to give me the embrace, he starts tickling me here just like you know, right in here. Not the only problem with that is that I'm really ticklish. So I'm trying to tell him stuff and he's tickling me, and I try to finally fight him off, and we tap it up and we hug it out and we get back cool, and we proceed

to play basketball for the next three hours. No beef, super cool, but he he tickled me um back into being kind of being his friend. I want to squash a beef. So listen, I hope you're ready for yours, because well, I'm gonna say how him is he's not gonna disrespect my segment by telling a story that he told on somebody el this podcast. First of all, First of all, no, list it ain't saying I didn't. It wasn't.

You don't even know whatever. I know who it was, and I'm not gonna let my segments see disrespect is you see I didn't try to First of all, where's human resources when I need them? He's right there. First of all, I'm this nigga man, I'm not even on It's not even me, it's her. I was giving her time to get herself together. So I told a quick stories, disrespected my segment and told a story he told before

my story. This is what's my true house, and just omitted the Hey guys, I'm gonna have to plead the fifth here. I'm going to plead the fifth because I I'm going to be writing a book and I want to say all the stories. I'm going to be the hardest parton you started. Look, you just started. I started, you started it. You started. Jojo came here today. I didn't start this and ran out on. I ain't saying on that. I never expected he ran out. I expected.

Everyone is protesting. She's gonna she's gonna tell all of her stories in one book. She can't say no, you're right, it's not possible. She can't say no. Pressure. Okay, oh god, this is horrible. I felt really bad about this, but since we're not naming no names, I guess it's I just feel like this, this is messy, Like I don't like telling other people's stuff. I just feel sad. I

don't like telling my own stuff necessarily. But somebody let me know that they were taking time off from making music because they got full from neck to ankle uh surgery meaning like sucked everywhere out, and that they were wrapped like a mummy. And um, this was someone that I would never expect to have um gone under the knife, let alone to like and that which which I thought

was kind of extreme. You know what I'm saying, And I'm saying telling you this tidbit to just say you never know what bitches out here doing for real, because even if it looked natural, you just don't know. So my mind was blown and and my I was just like, sometimes I feel quite naive to what people actually do

to like look a certain way. And then I'm like, oh my God, like you you when when they see you snatched in a little a little while, it's not just because you were in the gym, but for the last three months or whatever, it's because you you were wrapped like a mummy. You got it all m This is yeah, I've definitely showing up somewhere and seeing somebody

wrapped like a mommy before. Yeah. See, I just I'm naive. Yeah, I experienced the first before it was away, before it was back then, before it was the thing, before it was even like I don't even know it was possible. Um, all right. I had met a girl and the city that she lived in, and then it's just been in contact, just doing this phone stuff. And then when she came to l A, I went met up with her again and I was like, I don't I don't remember that

being like that. Let me test you, and you know, as you go through the process of unveiling it He's like, where did where did you? Where did you get this? Honestly, because it wasn't a thing at that time. We're so early in the two thousands that I couldn't wrap my mind around how this was possible. Yeah, I saw something in the gym yesterday that really defied all logic for me as far as proportion on a human being. I just I just want. Here's what I want. And I

think that maybe maybe I want too much. I want if you're going to get extra cake at it. I wanted to match your thighs, right, That's what I want. I wanted to sit within the circumference of your horse. That's what I want. I want you to not look like an aunt. That's that's just all I want. I don't want you to not do anything to help you feel good about yourself, whatever you feel like you want to do and need to do. I don't think they do.

I think what happens is they wake up and they and they now they look like an aunt, and they have to decide if they're going to accept the ant life or not. Because you can you can, you can see it on a diagram. That's one thing. But once things start to happening, and and once the surgery is over and once like there's always a difference. There's always oh, this is a little bit more than what what I what I thought? Yeah, this is this is and what do you do? Oh to go down? Trust me. After

about that's about six months, it'll go back too. And sometimes it just it stays. It stays, and you know, outside of it being unsafe, it becomes a little unsavory. And first I want to tell women, you are amazing how God made you. But if you feel the need for enhancements, I just feel like there should be um, there should be a level of proportion. My OCD makes me count everything proportionately. I have to have enough slices of cheese to go with the right amount of crackers.

There has to be enough cheese on the beyond burger to go with the bunt, or I have to take the rest of that bun off. The need bun to go with the burger can't be excess. But yeah, it's just what It's just how I look at things. I say, do what you do that just don't mean I'm gonna date you. And I want to say as a female, as a woman, there is so much pressure to look a certain way. Two from who from it could be

from us. I'm not saying it's from from men. No, No, I'm just saying, like I think social media, I think that media in general, the the images, the messages that were bombarded with can be really hard to not be influenced by that. So I really feel with and by the way that the person who I didn't name looks fantastic and looks natural. But it was my my naive tay that was like colluctus pearls, Like really, I didn't

know that kind of experiencing that. Do you think that we inn entertainment have to do a better job of recognizing and acknowledging beauty in its natural state? And we have to do that and everything we we we push everything, We are the driving forcing culture. Music. Everything is arts with us. If we're going to be violent, it's going to because of the music. If we're going to be peaceful, it's going to be because of the music. Music used

to stop wars, now it's starting. So everything comes from the music. Absolutely, we make songs about natural women, it'll be more natural women. We make songs about I'm gonna get this down for you it's gonna be more women trying to get those things down. So it's it's it's also the music being made. It's also the music being pushed. So similar to what you said, I don't know if we were on camera before that, but the executives do decide what the narrative is going to be. Yeah, the

major is what we hear the most. So if we're talking about what's going on in hip hop, what's going on culturally that influences across cultures, um, then that is kind of like the powers that be that are still pushing a certain right. So I don't know who's fault. It is necessarily that we are as like consumer driven or like into material items and looking a certain way and all that stuff, But it definitely is very pervasive

to go to to speak to the machine. The machine really thrives off thrives off of the demand, and so once the machine sees that there's a demand for a reaction to a certain thing, then that machine is going to figure out how to over serve to get the most out of that. And as long as as long as the community continues to buy in, they will continue to super serve. I think it's just a two parter. It's a two parter because like it goes back to like when we has heard when we first heard a

bitch in the song what we like? But then he was at the club and and you saw all the girls in the club saying bitch. It was like, oh, it's okay, now it works, so we can use And from there it just became super service where now it's just like us, it's common place. It's not even though I mean and and for for women and other communities, it's we use it as a term of endearment, you know. So um, And I think that insecurity is there's so much money to be made off of our insecurity as women.

So there's industries that thrive off of our insecurity. So I think that they keep you know this, Oh you could be a little smaller in the ways, you could be a little bigger here, you could be a little slimmer here. Why don't you get you know, all these different things there there's industries that are predicated on us not loving ourselves as we are. So I think that's really important to keep in mind too. I'm not saying

that I'm transcended, because I absolutely haven't. I definitely do all the lasers, all the things I'm trying to you know, keep sipping from the fountain of you. So it's you look good, Thank you, you look natural. Thank you. So UM, we at the Army Money Podcast love you however you want to be, however you want to be represented, We love you. We love how God made you. And however doctor, God made the doctor. God made Listen, God made the doctor,

but God gave the doctor free will. It's all God made. It's all God made. You know what I'm saying. You can't take God out of anything. Um, listen, ladies and gentlemen. UM, this has been a very special Army Money Podcast for us because you are very special in dear to us. UM. That's a fact. You know that for sure. And we just to make sure the world knows that you have home in my heart, period point blank. UM. We've we've we've seen so many uh so many of the same

things together at the same time. We've been fighting at the same time, we've been rejoicing at the same time, crying at the same time, and laughing at the same time as well. UM. I just I just commend you and salute you on continuing and that's it. Continuing to do what you do, continue loving what you do, continue being an inspiration. Um, be enough, hope, light for everyone who wants to not even just do what you do, but even just be you, be like you like, continue.

Thank you for your being a living example, being like the way you live. I'm saying it is an example, the way you have moved, the way you've just thank you for being who you are. And I'm very very honored to be a part of this renaissance that the genre is going through and to see it happened, to be a fan of music and then to just you know, be be a part of it all. Soo very very grateful. I don't take that lightly. I know ah what it means, and it's just I really think that we're in an

amazing time to be making music. So I feel very very lucky. Well, ladies and gentlemen. Um, yeah, your last word shavy nothing you know what? Yes? Yes, one last thing. When is the Brandy and Joe Joe? When is this going to happen? Because I don't know if you remembers back year's back studio, I think I had been in a session with Brandy and I mentioned your name, and then I saw you after and I mentioned her name, and then I went on Twitter and I said, I'm

gonna make Brandy Joe do it. It's like one of the one things I haven't brought to life, like a bit of a failure. It's not it's not over. I'm waiting on over. Call it out. You know what. Need We have talked about it. We are in communication and we're you know, I think that we got to do it. As my brother ray J would say that it's my one week, come on now. And here's another cool thing.

Right as you are so dope as you are, you're still like you're you still have this openness of and willingness to wanting to receive new information, Like like when we went in the studio and thank you for accepting the call um to do somebody else. That is amazing. First of all, you went crazy. I was just I was just following your but but we're getting the studio and you're like, walk me through it, give me, give me the vibe, give me the give it to me

like line by, like just give me the essence. And I was like okay, because I was just content with you know, just like I remember us walking through it line by line and within us kind of collaborating on what the essence was gonna be. You just went off into this place. It just took it up. Like that song. What people say about that song and your performance on this song, on that song, still they're still upset with me. We don't have a visual for that song. Dumb, so

such a good son. This super funny. I thought I thought there was gonna be like a look with words, that fucking dumb shoot the video. Dumb asked, we're gonna shoot a video to somebody else? Okay, fuck it? Why not? Because we can't do whatever we want to do. People love the song what we want to do. People love this. We're gonna make a video to somebody else? All right? Are we doing that? Yes? Send me treatment? What do you mean believe you? Shit? You don't believe me. First

you told a remixed story to me my segment. Now you're giving her bullshit about somebody pound me. You're not gonna pound me. I can't even get a pound a video. We are going to shoot a video to somebody else. That is my word to the creator. Jojo will not come on my podcast. And and it's piste and use the word dumb, fucking dumb. It was, it was. It was a moment. That's so when you asked me to be on that song, I'm like Uncle Texter Red, you know,

it was. It was so exciting that we we were finally going to do a record together first of all, and it was it was, it was. It was a fan favorite and sometimes trying to get you know, get the partners to believe that the fan favorite should have a visual and all these things to stuff still. But I'll shoot it myself. I'll spend my own money. Don't charge me a lot for glam. I'm gonna be worse because she likes she don't look good, she don't look right. Listen,

did you do You did your own makeup today? Right? You look amazing? So Joe's makeup take And this has been the arm Be Money podcast with our family member, our loved one, give it up for Thank you so much, guys, finally finally being Money