Raising Men Under Hard Circumstances with Lisa Johnson

they will start spewing things at you you know the other parent says this about you and and as if they believe it and it's very very triggering because you feel like okay I got away from this person and now my kid is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this and so the instinct is to often correct the record or say no that's not true this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did absolutely of course it is right yeah it's one of the worst things you can do

welcome back to raising men parenting is hard

at the best of times but it takes on uniquely difficult challenges in the middle of a storm of a high conflict divorce so how do you provide emotional safety and moral stability to your son when your partner becomes your opponent our guest today is Lisa Johnson she's the co founder of been there got out and the author of a new book when your ex turns your kids against you Lisa is a high conflict divorce strategist and a certified domestic violence

advocate who has turned a grueling personal journey

into a roadmap for others Lisa's testimony was instrumental in passing Jennifer's Law in Connecticut which expanded the legal definition of domestic violence to include coercive control which is a pernicious form of abuse she's here to help us tackle some tough questions hopefully we won't have to face but Lisa's inspiring personal story and her lessons are instructed to parents in healthy relationships also Lisa welcome to the show wow Shawn what an introduction thank you well let's

first of all I I find I your story is absolutely amazing so why don't you just start with sharing with us

alright so just tell me where to start cause I am a talker and I that's great let's begin at the beginning at some point you were married you had kids yeah and it started going sour what happened well actually I didn't think it started going sour it was kind of an explosion I basically was with my ex for 20 years we were married for nearly 18 I thought he was my best friend we got along pretty well we had two kids together you know red flags hindsight's always 20 20 but sure um

two years before our actual divorce I discovered that he had been living a double life that he had been soliciting other women for the entire relationship things started coming out that were at the tip of the iceberg and it was just more and more and more and I was absolutely um flabbergasted and so we decide I in my mind at the time it was like I will do anything to keep this family together because I had the idea that you had to have an intact family or the kids lives would be ruined and my ex

used to say that cause he knew that mattered so much to me he said if you divorce me you're gonna ruin their lives so I stayed in it it took two years we um you know to finally get out but um we went through three rounds of couples counseling all kinds of crazy crazy stuff and then um when I finally met with a divorce attorney uh he told me within 20 minutes yours is gonna be one of the really bad ones and I thought that is crazy like how did he know that but I really I always say I

I really believed at the time that my ex was a good person who had done some bad things I thought this would be amicable we had spent two years trying to work things out um and that we would go to mediation it would be done I remember being terrified that my divorce was gonna cost a $10,000 I had heard that was the average it cost 10 times that amount in the first year and then I was in court for 10 years total so my divorce attorney was right it again it cost $100,000 that first year

and took a full year and at the end of that year my divorce attorney who became like one of my best friends that year of course cause we had such an intimate relationship cause we spent so much time together he said yours is he is not going to follow this agreement um you cannot afford me he's going to financially decimate you he's gonna continue to do it so you need to go on your own

I'll be here on the background but we'll probably get you some paralegal if you need it and you need to start building your case now so he was right I went on my path my pro se or self represented journey um it took about a year and nine months for me to sort of catch my breath and put together a really powerful case and then I went back pro se or pro per in California it's also called and then another seven and a half years about a hundredish court appearances in two states um

including him appealing four times me representing myself at the appellate court level um even though I was told oh you better not do that cause it's a really big deal and me saying well I don't wanna spend $15,000 to have someone else speak for me when I've already done so well so not only won that case but then um it was notable enough to be published as case law

so that's one of my biggest triumphs because for a lawyer to get published is a really big deal and everyone I've ever spoken to is like I have never heard of a prose getting published so that was something then of course the Jennifer's Law being involved with that and then um my ex actually sued my partner and I for $4 million in defamation in civil court that was like year 9 when it was like almost ending so we we got that thrown out um finally but it was just like having

a terrorist for all those years and to this day still sometimes going to the mailbox I I flinch because I'm like what's what fresh hell might be awaiting me you know things like that but that's brutal and it's not I mean you're you're entwined forever because you have kids

with this person and so it's not just like getting married you you have kids too and you know that's the father of your children what I mean it's not like you can just not deal with each other no and that did not go as planned either tell me about that so we went to when I when I first met my lawyer he said I think the best thing for you to do is go to mediation and just have me in the background don't even tell your your ex that you have an attorney just meet individually with a mediator um

and this is something we advise to our clients who can handle it and so we managed to get a really good parenting plan um that said we had joint physical and legal custody meaning we shared decisions

but my ex never showed up oh he completely just left he didn't he he didn't do a single visitation I was trying to reach him and I was like where are you right before um well actually it was it might have been I don't remember if it was the day we told the kids that we were getting a divorce but he had a key ring and you know like on your key ring sometimes you have those little cards like for for the supermarket or like the library things like that that you kind of scan so I distinctly

remember when it was like we're getting a divorce right in front of our son who was maybe 14 at the time he had a a key ring for the YMCA and the library cause he used to take our son to the library and drop them off at the YMCA and he took them off and threw them on the table and said I guess I don't need these anymore and I was like what and he basically walked out and especially for those first 10 days he just disappeared the kids were calling him emailing him he wasn't answering

and he went and moved in with his father and I imagine he was doing a lot of online fantasy dating who knows what but he just gone and so I felt like I was left to clean up this huge mess

and I didn't even know what to say to the kids because it I really thought like we're both gonna co parent and you're gonna find a place and you're gonna be happy to have them and I was looking forward to having some weekends to myself finally and doing my thing and he just he just was gone so that was absolutely heartbreaking that was the scariest thing in my life because remember I was already terrified of the relationship ending and and having a non intact family ruin their lives but I never

imagined they have a a parent that just abandoned them

yeah and and then you know I mean it it the fatherhood absence is list is is linked to higher delinquency to mental health issues to how people are doing in school and overall long term um affects and you you just have to be looking at that and thinking my gosh what do I do yeah yeah it was it was really bad and it was like right it was right before Easter and um I think it was like right before Easter break that we actually told the kids and so I was scrambling

trying to find therapist we had this we have this thing in town it's called kids in crisis it's like this this resource place for families I remember going down there with the kids and all these other things were closed and I was just like I need names of therapists and and I didn't even know where to start and I was thinking we gotta get like individual therapists for them and um

and I remember my daughter we we couldn't find like a really good one right away but for my son I got so lucky I found this guy Mark who was like a former Hell's Angel type he's like this huge guy and he'd show up on this big motorcycle he had dropped out of high school but he had like two master's degrees and he was like big and gruff and he and my son really really connected and um and but they didn't talk about like therapeutic stuff they they talked about debate and politics and stuff that

like Izzy would talk about with his his father in the past so I remember thinking like when are they gonna get to the stuff and and um I remember asking Mark about it and he said let me do my job like I know what I'm doing but the thing I need to do with your son because of what he's dealt with is we need to just establish that rapport and then we'll get to that stuff later but it was really hard I mean my son um got very aggressive I didn't understand

what was happening but he would lash out at me and I remember making threats sometimes being like I can't cause my son's like a lot bigger than me at the time too I was like I'm gonna have to take you to kids in crisis cause cause like I can't

I I don't know how to deal with you and I remember calling Mark one night he's like that is the last thing you can you do because right now Izzy's dealing with a parent that's walked out of his life and for you to also say I can't deal with you that's that's the worst so it's really um healthy that he's expressing this anger and aggression cause he's getting it out yeah so you gotta be strong and you gotta stand stand by him and it'll ride

through and then we can really start getting to the work and he was so right but I it was terrifying that's that has to be one of the hardest things that you just have to deal with because you're facing this personal chaos outside of that and then now your son is acting the same way almost almost being your enemy but what he's seeking is connection right I mean he didn't want to be he wanted to say like testing are you gonna stay with me that's right

yeah yeah I mean we still like we we just recently repainted his room and the door has like all of these sparks on it and I said I wanna leave I wanna leave the door he also has all these funky bumper stickers from when he was a kid that I wanna keep but I'm like it it reminds me of of how far we've come

yeah I had a guest named Tasha Shore and I know her oh OK great yeah I've interviewed her a couple of times she's spectacular she is we and she she talks a lot about aggression yes and she says that aggression is a fear response yeah and the way that I analog your your son's behavior at that time from what you've told me in that context is he was afraid he was afraid he's just lost his father he's afraid that he's gonna lose his mother he doesn't know what the world is gonna look like and

the only reflex he has is aggression and it's a way of testing you it's a way of seeking connection and you I just can't believe how fortunate you were to have that therapist in your life at that time it's almost like divine intervention I know Guardian Angel I still send him holiday cards I think he's in like Alaska or Washington state but I'm like you were you helped our family so much oh that's that that's fantastic um so so we got to the point where it's been two years down the road

we've we've got the divorce finalized and then there so there were another another eight years of just fighting and fighting and fighting how did it end how did it eventually stop well I mean so what happened was and

I'm very lucky because I didn't have a custody battle I have to say that my son actually said something really heartbreaking a few years later he was like I wish you had had a custody battle because then he at least would have cared enough to fight you for us and he didn't so that was really sad but the thing that brought us back that I took him back to court for was um college so I'm you know I used to be a high school English teacher I have a master's degree education is one of my core

values like everything is education and growing up um when the you know when the kids were growing up we used to see his family every week and and get together with his super rich dad who was paying for his other grandson's college education and used to be like

you know I'm gonna pay for your kids college education we'd all be like oh thank you so much thank you so much and um of course he never did it and so during the time as we were you know when my ex and I were still together he said we don't need to do a 5 29 college plan because my dad's gonna pay for it you know the grandfather said he'd take care of the grandkids education so let's take that money and put it into my retirement account that'll be ours

and we'll use your money for the day to day expenses like my income so you can imagine what happened of course he kept the entire retirement his father refused to pay and he refused to pay and that was another threat he had said if you divorce me I'm not paying for our kids college education I was just like not that he would pay only for but he's like I'm not paying a penny right and I was I was so angry about that because I felt like his father broke his word he broke his word

we put language in our agreement that said had we stayed together of course we would have supported our our children's college education he has a college degree too um and I felt like it was really punishing the kids to hurt me financially by by taking that stance

so when I went back to court it was for what's called an educational support order and in our state um especially because I had that language in the order that said had we stayed together we both would have contributed it was just a matter of deciding percentages so I went back as a prose and and dealt with that and did very well but it took for you know it took like 9 months to actually no it took a year cause it was December of 2017 and I got orders in 2018 um

and then he wouldn't comply he just wouldn't pay his share and so that was more years in court and also in the process um we I already knew that he hadn't told the truth on what his called his financial affidavits so we also put protective language in that said um the numbers for child support and alimony are based on what he provided on the legal documents but if it ever is determined that there was additional income that that will trigger a modification so of course you

know he had 14 rental properties he kept putting zero as income I was like I'll deal with you later and I did and so I I took that back too and and ended up winning that stuff as well so

all of that those three motions plus Covid plus you know him being angry and vengeful about the fact that you know why should he have to contribute anything since we got a divorce that was what kept us in court all those years it was maddening how destructive I mean it's just it you know rather than spending all that energy rather than spending all that money fighting just go to an arrangement well I always say that his lawyer financially abused him far worse than

I ever could have or anyone because his lawyer should have just said follow the order just just pay what you're supposed to you don't need to pay me for all these years and all these appearances right just follow the order I mean that's what happened yeah he didn't follow the order it was the agreement it's stronger than a court order he agreed to do these things and he just was like I don't I don't have to so he ended up spending probably four or six times as much

as what he would have had to do had he just follow the order but that's why um these cases are very very different and in my my career with my partner Chris we only deal with these crazy cases because they have to be handled very delicately and very differently than normal divorce cause when we talk about what goes on with us um and our clients talk about their stories no one could believe it cause it defies logic why would somebody choose to spend 6 times the amount if they had just

followed the order it's because there's other psychological things going on yeah

a normal person with a normally healthy relationship can't fathom right that it could go like that because it makes no sense it's a lose lose why would anyone opt for that and it's obvious it's not like it's not like the data is not there right and people think well everybody loves their kids like who would do something like that why would you do that I can't imagine abandoning my kids and that would happen if I got a divorce yeah I'd I'd be worried about maintaining

making sure that I had access to my children that's how 85 ish plus percent of people are but then there's this chunk of us that it's not like that that feel very alone and very isolated because you say what's going on and people are like it must be something they almost don't believe you they almost say what have you done to like what is his side

right what what what have you done to deserve this they don't understand the nature of domestic violence they don't understand personality disorders you know it's just but it but it's not the same and there's so many people dealing with this kind of stuff so now you've pivoted you're leveraging this 10 this decade long war story as as a way to help people avoid and and and strategize in their own situations is that right yeah yeah that's that's been there got out yeah I love that and so

you know what would you have done differently or what should you have done differently okay how much time if you had this situation to live over again I mean there's there's

there's so many things I would have done differently um but I think the first one was I would have taken strategic oversight of my case well first of all no backing up before that I I would have known what narcissism was I would have known a bit more about addiction I wouldn't have thought I have to do this logically and I would have educated myself a lot more there's an excellent book called splitting by a Guy Named Bill Eddie and it's about dealing with narcissistic and borderline

personality disorders during a divorce I unfortunately found that book like a year and a half after I got divorced after that first year but it was right before my partner Chris whose divorce took three years that that book made him finally cross the finish line and the author of its name is Bill Eddie he is a former social worker turned high conflict family lawyer turned founder of what's called the High Conflict Institute and I think he's actually based in San Diego but um

anyway now we work with yeah governments and businesses to reduce the level of conflict and he actually wrote the forward to our upcoming book which is very very exciting but um but anyway so there's there's ways to deal with these people very very differently and I think I would have um been able to educate my my lawyer was wonderful but neither of us knew what we were dealing with and we didn't understand that the more engagement we had just dragged it out longer

so I think we wouldn't have negotiated as much we would I I would have taken a a firmer stance on certain things I would have communicated differently I think I would have um stroked my ex's ego a lot more I would have uh yeah I mean the the post judgment stuff like all those years maybe there could have been stuff I would have but that was that was really financial and that was him not following the order but um but we see a lot of mistakes made in terms of communication from the very beginning

yeah that's yeah that's fascinating I and I can imagine I can imagine having having a coach if that's your situation if you're in that situation having a coach or having someone I can imagine that it would be a very lonely experience and that having someone like you would be tremendously helpful

yeah well I think because people see things on TV they hear what we call Barstool Council like friends and and other people saying oh well this is what you should do this is what I did or this is what someone I know but they don't understand like these cases are very very different and even each of the high conflict cases are are different um so we often say to our clients like you know your ex better than anyone and no one else has to live with the consequences of the decisions

you make now except for you and your family so it's really really important to understand what's going on to understand every stage of the process to not feel pressured into making decisions just because you're exhausted to think about the long term consequences to realize like you can't just cut someone out of your kid's lives like you have to figure out a way to co parent because even people in jail have parenting rights and the impact on your children is is not just till they're 18

it's it's for the rest of their lives absolutely um my kids actually did recently um reconnect with their their father I thought it was like a done like he was gone but that's one of my friends was telling me the other day she said it's almost like when a child's been adopted it no matter how wonderful their adoptive parents are they're still curious so even when someone has left you you still wanna you know you wanna know and stuff and so but I do think that

a lot of the decisions he made in terms of how he treated them or neglected them is impacting you know whatever happens moving forward so of course yeah and there's it's interesting gonna be a lack of trust there yeah yeah it's it's interesting because I think my son has a very strong personality and early on I thought hmm

my daughter's the one who's like really really sensitive and she'll be affected more but now they're young adults and I actually think the opposite I think my son is a lot more vulnerable maybe because he's a boy um and also the relationship that he had in the beginning and he was the one who chased after his father and I also see things in my partner Chris whose father abandoned him when when his parents got a divorce and he always was kind of chasing love and I I kind of worry

about that I mean'cause that's what attracted Chris my partner to his ex you know getting involved with people who are more avoidant and so I hope that doesn't happen I mean my my son's had relationships and stuff but now that his dad is kind of intermittently back I I wonder you know I'm always worried that he's gonna get hurt again so we'll see yeah and yeah that's you gotta take that risk I think but I can't do anything I mean it's his life and he's a grown up that's right

how do you you know how did you help your son process the trauma of the high conflict divorce um you know without him feeling like he has to man up and bury his feelings and stuff did you manage to thread that needle

yeah so that's that's an excellent question and um and actually years ago when my son was over the age of 18 he was asked to be on a podcast called Slam the gavel where the interviewer was asking about what it was like being the child of a high conflict divorce and we gathered a bunch of questions from our Instagram audience at the time of what people wanted to know if you could ask a child who's an adult and the the most popular question was how did you what did your mom do

to help you get through this um I know it for me and I'll tell you his answer in a second but for me the most important thing was shielding him from it like not talking about stuff with his dad not talking about stuff with court I mean they saw me in court they they knew that I was busy with court but like I go to my dad's office um in another location and and spread stuff out I didn't talk about it with them I just um did what I had to do and it's interesting cause my son said just

like a year ago he said oh I didn't know I didn't know that dad sued you for defamation like I didn't and I said oh good yeah I'm glad you didn't know that but when he was asked the question on the podcast what did your mom do what what helped you the most he said she kept it together

so I think me getting support for myself taking care of myself that was the best thing that I did for both Izzy and his sister because he never felt emotionally responsible for me I think one time very early in the process they they made some comment I was driving them to school and I started crying they and I'm like pretty stoic and they both were like oh my God oh my God I'm so sorry mom I'm so sorry but I was just like but I really tried to not show my sadness to them and deal with stuff with

with friends I had a trauma therapist uh'cause I I just didn't want them to feel like they had to take care of me and apparently they didn't so that's that's really really good so that's fantastic self regulation yeah well and and I just from my con

uh from my conversations with other guests I can tell you that uh finding your son men good role models to spend time with and just the more time that they can spend with healthy men um I I I I just know that that made a difference and yes and now I now you just made me think about that so my my dad and I and and part part of what's been so heartbreaking for me is my dad and I are really really close my dad's 85 he's an identical twin my dad and I have lunch every single week we meet

and have lunch together I love that yeah and so um and I almost it's like I have two dads because of the identical twin thing and they work together and they dress the same sometimes it's really wild amazing wrestle oh my gosh

they don't wrestle now they're they're like kind of you know yeah 85 is a little old to still yes but um but my dad and I have always been really really close and so I I feel heartbroken that my kids don't have that but um but my dad was there for my kids and while I was dealing with all this I had to work on the weekends and so my son became he he actually became this national debate champion so he's always having to be to go to debates so I couldn't drive him and

part of my um he kind of resents it but I'm like actually this was good for you is I I can't do it you're gonna have to figure it out and so he Learned how to use public transportation but my dad would drive him like we'd figure out a way my dad would pick him up and take him and his friends and stuff so he he stepped in a lot as that role model um you know and also parental figure for for Izzy and another thing was with debate itself so Izzy and his sister went to a high school

that didn't have sports it was like this weird magnet school but it focused on technology and technology and engineering and so um and they they didn't have sports but their big thing was the debate team that was like the football team from you know where it's like wow you're on the debate team so Izzy was the debate captain and um his debate coach oh who I have to get in touch with I just remembered um his his debate coach became like a father figure and Izzy was born arguing so this man like

really embraced that talent which is yeah drove me crazy a lot um and so he really helped Izzy shine and Izzy actually was the the speaker at his graduation which unfortunately his father didn't even come to but during his speech which was heartbreaking he talked about how his father wasn't there but his debate coach really stepped up for him and that he really appreciated having that that man in his life so it is so important to have those male figures that can step in

for boys and make them feel valued yeah yeah that's you're you're so fortunate to have found role models like that and and and people like that or or um that I I know that made a difference just from from all the people I talked to um let's talk about the new book uh

it's called when your ex turns your kids against you and yeah oh I love it thank you yes um you address a nightmare for many parents I can imagine what are the practical tools that a parent

can use to to maintain the role model status to not vilify the other parent but while the other parent is actively trying to dismantle it this is such a huge topic and unfortunately I think again it comes down to education and understanding what alienation means because it usually starts while you're still in the relationship with the person like very subtle undermining like making jokes about you to your kids minimizing your authority I think back to

when I was still in in my relationship when Izzy was a really little boy and um he would you know do something that he got in trouble for and and my background as a teacher I'd be like no you know like you're sitting down like you're not allowed to do whatever it was and my ex would be like oh no no no you don't need to listen to your mom you can take it back Izzy and it really it not only undermined my attempts to discipline him and I'm not talking about punishment but just to teach him

yeah but Izzy grew up like pushing boundaries and I think it's harmed him in a lot of ways because because he's just like oh I can just apologize and everything is all better and it's like made him a little bit less sensitive to people's feelings it's not just how you feel and what you think it's about the responses to other people and developing that empathy so um that was a form of alienation almost like oh Mom's really cranky you know we don't need to listen to her

she's just this or oh you know you can take it back I I didn't know what was what was happening at the time but that's one of those things um yeah you don't even know to set a boundary you you don't even realize that that means that they're not on your side and and that that that the other thing that the the thing where you're working together and you're on you have each other's backs and no matter what even if you're wrong they're gonna back you up

and then you're gonna have a chat about it later that that experience is so foreign to you you don't even know that it's a possibility yeah

yeah and you just think okay maybe we just have different parenting styles but right it's establishing what's called loyalty conflicts where the kid gravitates more towards one parent than the other and especially the target parent is made to feel like they did something wrong and so as you get out of the you know post separation and and a lot of times with our clients it happens while they're still together where the kids cut off one parent who still lives in the house

and they want nothing to do with them as soon as there's like a sign that there's gonna be a separation because they're not allowed to love both of you again I'm not talking about normal I'm talking about where there's like um a personality disorder situation yeah yeah so so um understanding like all about what it actually means is gonna be very helpful moving forward because often once you do separate and the kid comes back from the other parent's house they will start spewing things at you

you know the other parent says this about you and as if they believe it and it's very very triggering because you feel like okay I got away from this person and now my kid is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this and so the instinct is to often correct the record or say no that's not true this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did absolutely of course it is right yeah it's one of the worst things you can do and here's why that's right yeah so with the X with your ex

they are telling your child what to think and usually we talk about well one of the big alienation factors we talk about is sending poisonous messages about you from the other parent that you are either unsafe unloving or unavailable so when they're coming at you and saying those things that they've heard from your other parent who's bad mouthing you um you wanna you wanna fix it but when you fix it and you say no that's not true it's really this

it you are doing the same thing because you're telling your child what to think you're not showing respect for their ability to figure out what's real and what's not and you have to understand that children generally love both parents they consider both of you authorities so when they're telling one thing and you're saying another a child experiences cognitive dissonance cause they're like okay my parents don't lie to me but they're telling me completely different things

yeah so I don't know what to do like I I don't I I I I don't know who to believe um so for you instead to when they when they come at you with these vicious messages they're basically parroting what your ex is saying to them and you're just like this is crazy I can't believe this it's so harmful to my kid is to put the truth to the side of what it actually is and understand we have to deal with their feelings first they're dealing with a lot of anger fear sadness grief etcetera

so for you to sit there and take it not I'm not talking about them being totally disrespectful on and on and on but to understand that they are they are really really suffering so for you to just say I let me hear what you have to say I'm so sorry that you feel that way I wanna hear more of like why you think I'm like that and get them to just keep talking and talking and talking and just take it and deal with the truth later

but be like I'm the one who's not gonna sit here and tell you you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to think this I'm gonna just say I'm here so defending yourself is essentially

not validating their feelings and so they're just gonna get defensive and they're just gonna fight you and then they're gonna believe the thing you don't want them to believe right whereas if you just try to keep your distance and you inspect their feelings you validate their feelings and you inspect their rationale the claims will fall apart on their own and then you become the credible parent and and the other parent is has is the the non credible parent

I mean I think back to that message from Mark that is his therapist who is like even though he's raging at you you have to stay firm like you cannot just be like leave me alone go away yeah you know and it makes me think of like what you mentioned Tasha sure parenting boys peacefully um she's got some amazing content and she talks about how putting kids like when they're explosive with you and you say you need to go sit away like get away from me

that that basically is teaching kids that they have to behave a certain way for your love to be with you I know I I struggle with this my my daughter who is 3 years old is going through a phase right now where she gets really really ugly and it's makes me really mad and I don't want to be really mad at her and so like I I feel like I have to get away from it but I also know that getting away from it is punishing her for you know it is creating

that situation where she feels like she has to behave and suppress what she feels in order

to be around me and I don't know how to manage that I I well okay so I mean I don't know if that's the same thing like my daughter at 3 had her terrible twos at 3 and she like it would be nothing like I'd say do you do you want a cheese stick I don't want that I'd be like okay and then she'd be like I don't want and then it would blow up for an hour screaming and so I put her in a room and shut the window so the neighbors didn't think I was killing her because I thought

she just needs to blow it off and she did and it happened every single day over nothing so right I found that when I did engage with her and it's different with different developmental levels it would just cat it would just extended and extended almost like the fuss period where it's like overstimulating them they just you just need to like sit here I'm not punishing you I'm just being like I I can't help you I'm gonna take a break here yeah right yeah yeah so it's yeah I think it's different

yeah it's it's definitely different and the the the strategies and the tactics are different for boys and girls that's right and different ages and different personalities so it has to be customized but it is not easy but especially in the moment it's almost like you need to have a plan ahead of time you need to know this is what's gonna happen how am I gonna deal with it cause it's happening yeah yeah that's that is great advice that is absolutely

great advice and you can you can do that exercise just sit down for 15 20 minutes an hour whatever it is and just you know map out the decision tree right instead of having that toxic hope of like maybe today they'll stop it's like no they're not yeah they're not gonna stop today yeah and it's it's important to do that analysis and that planning when you're removed from the situation because it's then

and then you're kind of on autopilot you don't have to worry too much about what you're gonna do and you could be proud of how you responded because because you responded in a way that was thoughtful because you could still think back when you came up with the plan as opposed to when you're in the thick of it you're in your other brain you're in the what I call the Conan the barbarian brain and

you know there's no there's no planning there's no thinking that's happening in that brain yeah I think humor is also very very helpful like I know when the kids were little and they be like really mad I'd be like oh my gosh you want me to like I mean I do that too like I'm you want me to rip my arm off or do you and they be like what like just sort of surprise them you know and but as with all things there's attention there too I I often deflect with humor and in ways that are

healthy and unhealthy and I once got in a situation where and so I was doing this to the boy all the time he would get very upset and um and this is something that I suspect Tasha Shore would have advised me against if I'd known about her back then she uh uh the boy would would get very upset he'd start crying and the crying I guess made me feel like a bad dad and so I would try and stop the crying I would stop the crying by making him laugh and then and at one point in time

he's a wise little kid man at one point in time he goes he goes dad stop and he's like kind of lying laughing and kind of crying he goes I'm so frustrated you just won't let me feel what I feel wow I was like oh my gosh he's totally right like let me be sad man and so yeah and so I started doing that and there's attention like sometimes I'll make him laugh and sometimes I'll let him cry it out and yeah it's different now it's it's it's so hard I know

um with my partner with Chris sometimes he'll be like he he he'll recognize he's like I as a man I feel like I I wanna when you tell me things that are upsetting to you I just wanna fix it but you don't want me to fix it sometimes you just want me to listen I'm like yeah yeah that's it is anathema to I think that's an anathema to men in general and it's particularly anathema to guys like me who are engineers you know you show me something broken I need to fix it right and

like just sitting with the discomfort is not it's not natural to me

yeah but that's so important to even recognize yes is that I have to I have to it's it's something that you have control over and but it's it's not comfortable but I I realize I don't think I answered your question as one way to sort of prevent this and I was interviewing a child psychiatrist who happens to be local I met her in real life and she's from Romania but she she works with kids from 3 to like 20 and she said that kids want two things more than anything else control and attention

and so she talked about something called the 10 minute rule that I think is applicable for any parent she said if you for 10 minutes when you have time you know when you're with your kid to say I really like how you do this or I'm really interested in something that you're interested in so for example even if it's a video game and I made this mistake I probably should have done this with with Izzy when he was interested in video games instead of being like I don't care about video games

I should have said you know what I know you love this game can you show me can you explain it to me and can you show me how to play it where the kid feels like they're leading and they have your full attention and I think back to when I was a little girl like with my dad part of why I think we had this bond was because he really did spend time with me like I remember so many things where he'd come home from work he'd stand on his head in the middle of the living room and I

was a gymnast so I loved like we'd turn on music I had two I've two sisters so we just like dance around and act silly he'd let us do he taught us how to do dive rolls over him he would take me for walks every Sunday down the hill to get the newspaper at the store and he'd let me buy like a little thing from the vending machine I still have all those little plastic toys in my jewelry box from when I was a child we would take walks for ice cream like we always had something that we did together

that was just me and him even though you know I had siblings so spending that dedicated time even when we didn't you know we we didn't talk about like our feelings or open up to anything but as as I got older like he was always an athlete so um he was a wrestler and him and his brother would go down to Manhattan

to New York Athletic Club and they they taught me how to keep time and I got to throw in the white towel so I was part of that um wow you know like he took me jogging I I remember when I was 21 when I had my first like awful heartbreak yeah and I was just crying and crying in the bathroom I was back from college and my dad's like we're gonna go out we're gonna go out for a jog like you don't need to say anything to me but I'm just gonna like keep this routine

that we've had all this time so having that steady consistent presence in my life yeah I think is that's that's really helped me a lot and I think that for any parent listening to have any kind of little rituals like these are the things your kids are gonna remember that is absolutely right I love that 10 minute ritual um we we've abused Tasha Shore on this but she she has a name for that I think she calls it special time and it's exactly it's exactly what that is it's 10 minutes the the child

uh directs what the activities are and you know you just and and it's one parent per kid and each parent has their own special time and uh it's it's a beautiful suggestion I'm gonna implement that uh today I'm gonna do it starting today I it it is such an important thing I'm so glad I found out about it yeah I I think it's really made a difference with my own kids yeah and spent making sure I have time with them even as they're young adults and and Izzy was saying the other weekend

Izzy and I went up we took a road trip up to um this cute little town in upstate Connecticut and we're just walking around and Izzy said mom you know they say that um that by the time a kid is 18 that they will have spent like 90% of their time like the like the time that you would have had it's already 90% gone however you say it like yeah

now it's just a little bit of time because he's an adult and he's like I I don't think we fit that I think we still spend more than 10% of our time together so yeah I'm really happy about that what a what a what a profound and kind of horrifying thing is 90% of the time you spend with your kid they're underage they're 18 yeah and then and then it's how brutal I know I know how brutal but it doesn't have to be true it doesn't yeah that's right but it's you establishing

a relationship where your kids wanna spend time with you that's right when they become adults too yeah like me and my dad having lunch every week I want to

yeah it's not true for your dad yeah you're you're that's not true for your dad I love that yeah I love that well I have I I at least I've absolutely loved this conversation before I let you get out of here um I I really like to ask everybody uh the same question uh to finish things off and so um if you're standing in the gap for the next generation and you can only convey you can give a parent one principle to help them raise a son of virtue and emotional intelligence and excellence what

what is that principle what is the raising men bottom line for you it it kind of goes into what we were just talking about is the most important thing is to establish a relationship with your son where they feel like they can talk to you about whatever it is that will protect them from all kinds of abuse with not just you know scary people but even in the workplace where they can tell you anything I think it's so important especially for boys who have a hard time

opening up our culture does that to them they're not allowed to express themselves but where you have a son or a daughter and I have both and so to you where they they feel like they can tell you anything and you're not gonna come at them or judge them you're just gonna accept it I think it's it's really helpful for them and also as a parent to feel like my kid wants to spend time with me like that makes me feel really happy we just went to Alaska together that was my daughter's graduation

present it was just me her and Izzy and we did a huge road trip and went all over and it was one of my favorite vacations and I thought I am so lucky that I have these kids who actually uh are taking their vacation time to spend with me of course after as he was like mom you drove me crazy we're never sharing right cab together

we we don't need to spend so much time together next time we're getting separate lodging but right but we did have a pretty good time so I think doing what you can to cultivate a relationship with your child because the people I work with there's a lot of situations where kids cut off a parent so you want to make yourself bulletproof to that and that starts with you taking the time even those 10 minutes a day to really focus on on your kid because this is gonna be your your family

like for the rest of your life yeah so why not do why not do the best you can you don't have a choice you of whether or not these people are gonna be in your family they're you're stuck with them you might as well make it awesome yeah or or try yeah yeah yeah do what you can to make it awesome right yeah I love that sentiment thank you so much Lisa for for for spending the time I really appreciate it's been wonderful having you on raising men no my pleasure

the book is called when your ex turns your kids against you you can find that and more with the links in the show notes remember you are a great parent raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino