Raising Men Starts with Raising Ourselves with Caleb Scott

everybody I talk to nine out of 10 have that exact same experience and the one out of 10 is oh yeah I fell in love with my baby the instant he came out into the world and that's the abnormal thing and it's beautiful and it's wonderful and I'm thrilled for those people yes but the normal thing is what you and I experienced hi and welcome to the Raising Men podcast my name is Sean Dawson I'm here with Caleb Scott Caleb is the CEO of Better Dad Company and the host of the Better Dad Podcast

he joins us from Springfield Missouri where he's the father of one son now Caleb I don't want to put words in your mouth but but I you have what is to me a particularly challenging journey in in fatherhood but one that I don't think is particularly uncommon and I think you and I share almost a passion for this sense that there is a cultural uh tension against being a good dad somehow and uh and that's I'm really excited to talk to you about this today thank you so much for coming on

and I appreciate you taking the time today man I'm happy to be here uh you know kind of organically getting connected and um just having that first conversation about the desired heartbeat for fathers and and raising good men and you know knowing that it's not just here that it's geographically across the nation where people are excited about encouraging men especially in the in the space of being a father I just you know anytime we can continue this conversation it's

it's a pleasure to be a part of you know what one of the things that happened to me and and it resonated with me in your story

is that becoming a dad changed me in ways that I would never have anticipated prior to the point I mean literally as my wife and I were walking to the hospital as she was in labor I didn't understand how much different I would be 12 hours later and and it it it it never I I thought a lot about it we planned a lot about it and it still it still was so completely different that I I didn't it was a shock to me and I'd love for you to share your story uh along the same lines

I think we had a similar experience there yeah so um I I had plenty of friends who had gotten pregnant and had kids and you know just that just that camaraderie of being in the hospital in the waiting room you know sitting outside and waiting to hear that first cry and you know just just like the fun of being there together so when we um got pregnant we found out that we were in the middle of a a a global pandemic uh you know Covid was at its peak

and so that meant a huge shift in hospital practices so we didn't get to have our core group of support there it was just her and I yeah and so it was just it wasn't bad it was just very different you know expectations had to shift and so we um we we go through the process of delivering him and as soon as they hand him to me the the doctor walks in and goes hey mom has Covid and so the whole room shut down you know and and now four or five years removed we know kind of what we know

but right then you didn't know anything and so I became a dad 12 seconds ago and I just found out that my my son's mom is is potentially dealing with something very scary and and crazy and so the hospital staff said hey you have to leave you have to get a third party test to prove that you don't have Covid so you're actually allowed back in here so you know trying to trying to navigate the emotions of here he is

oh my gosh is she okay I have to leave and and maybe not come back was just I'll never forget that Drive I just felt so numb I was just in this weird moment of just I hope I don't have it and so I get the test I don't have it I come back you know they're still figuring out hospital practices so we were put in this covid specific room and you know it just wasn't ideal and so after about two days of you know resting in what looked like a broom closet we were like you know what

I think I think it's probably time for us to go home we can figure this out from here and so then going home 14 days um so my son actually ends up getting Covid as well and so you know we're we're in separate rooms she's having to breastfeed with a mask on like all the fun tender moments of parenthood that you're anticipating were were dramatically affected because of that and so for 14 days our families were just so anxious to come see him and meet him and we couldn't because of this

this epidemic that had been affecting you know not just that moment but our entire lives the lives of everybody on the planet so it wasn't ideal circumstances to start Parenthood um but we made it yeah that I I can't imagine and all of the moments that there's so many wonderful tender moments that happened in those first I don't know couple weeks and they were all kind of stolen from you weren't you weren't they yeah you know and I don't know five five years down the road now

I look back at a lot of things that that were terrible in the moment that ended up being such a blessing to us later just because you know we were we were forced to kind of lean into some adversity that made us a lot more intentional that made us a lot more excited about parenthood but yeah I if I had it to do all over again I I would not suggest you know doing it solo and everybody getting Covid and it being a huge panic okay you know that time must have felt really overwhelming and I I

you know when you embark on the journey if you if you embark on it intentionally you you have a plan right and you have your support structure and you have your family and all of that evaporated for you uh it seems and so how did you know how do you deal with that how do you deal with the overwhelm how do you deal with and you know what would your advice be to somebody else who was feeling that same way I mean we're not we're probably not gonna go through a global pandemic

in the near future again fingers crossed but but I think that feeling of overwhelm is universal uh to some degree or another you know Covid had already taken a lot from us you know I lost my job about a month before he was here um

and and just just the reality of being in the medical field and that having such a major shift and who was allowed in the hospital and and what um hospitals were paying attention to and what mattered so we had already experienced Covid um taking something from us so this was like another um shot to the heart um but you know in in reality no matter what level of parenthood you're at whether it's you're about to be parents whether you're just new parents

whether you're 25 years down the road parents things not going right is a common theme you're just gonna have to get used to um and and that's that's the brilliance of parenting is that if it was easy and if it was all mapped out it wouldn't be as fun it wouldn't be as much of an adventure if you just had it all put together for you you wouldn't love your kid the same if it was super easy to love them all the time um yeah and and I'll be honest with you man had it not been for my faith I

I don't know if I really had a lot of hope in anything you know it's it's it's dangerous to tie your identity to one specific thing especially things that change or um don't don't always feed our purpose and so for me you know the idea of of leaning into my faith trusting that God had a plan for what was going on even though in the moment it was kind of crazy yeah um was was genuinely a huge part of what dragged me through what seemed like a really difficult time yeah I can imagine that I

it so you a global pandemic hits uh shortly before that you had found out that you guys were pregnant right as a result of the pandemic you lose your job in the medical field and then this Covid thing absolutely disrupts what what would normally be a particularly challenging time just amping it up to three or four times the level of challenge I I I just really have a lot of empathy for

for what you were going through there it my our own experience um our boy was 1 year old when when Covid hit and that wasn't ideal timing either I don't think anybody in the world thinks that oh boy Covid came at the perfect time right right and um um but we were positioned in we had a place where we could work from home we had an nanny lined up that could help us take care of the the the baby and you know we both had jobs that could support that kind of structure

sure and it was still really really really difficult yeah and I I I'm really interested in what sort of tools and techniques and just the way of thinking you mentioned your faith um and the uh and and how that helped get you through what other tools and techniques did you have at your disposal to to help you get through that time was there any fellowship with other men or for sure you know and and how did how how did you get through that yeah I mean the a a good piece of advice is that

you know you always hear it takes a village and and the reality is is it's not even a village to raise your child it's a village to support you while you do it absolutely um you know as men we're so used to you know um just put it on our back and and we'll find a way to climb that mountain but but the reality is is that that that recipe ends in um anger it ends in resentment and bitterness or or just complete exhaustion to the point that you just fail the people that you've

you've committed to helping um so yeah so fellowship um having a good support system and if it's just if your family like if you have a great family lean on your family I know not everybody has the privilege of having um a close support system from family but family isn't always blood um I I was very fortunate to have very strong men um that I had given the permission to have you know the the freedom to speak truth in my life even if that truth wasn't easy to hear at the time um

you know hey Caleb I I think right now you're in a you're in a kind of a poor me position I think you need to pull up your bootstraps and get going or hey man I'm gonna come over and I'm gonna vacuum your carpet you just sit down and chill and and they're small things and they don't seem very significant but at the time and in the moment it was such a breath of fresh air because someone saw my struggle um and participated in my struggle with me and so um my son's mom and I are not together

and so co parenting comes with its own list of you know added obstacles or difficulties or just challenges and so you know not only are you trying to figure out parenthood but you're also trying to navigate a relationship that that may have had some um you know

trauma in it that you don't want to bleed onto your kid and and you want to be able to try and repair but you're also in a moment of exhaustion trying to figure out you know when they sleep what they need to eat is this a normal cough is it a not normal cough like there's so many things that you're worried about so yeah so one of those things is community the other thing that I talk about a lot so when when my friends get pregnant or someone I know gets pregnant I kind of send them this like

cheat sheet of things that I wish someone would have told me prior to becoming a father and the one thing I say all the time is have Grace yeah have Grace for your partner have Grace for your child have Grace for your parents or for your in laws or Grace for people that say things that they didn't mean to say it how it sounded for the people that give you advice that you didn't ask for for your kid who keeps you up at night for yourself when you forgot diapers or you didn't buy enough wipes

or you got angry when you shouldn't have yeah having Grace man that that is abundant makes you so much better of a father that it's it's it's the singular piece of of like emotion I try and possess at all times because man I know that I fail and fall so short and I want other people to have the security to know that they don't have to be perfect when they're around me as well yeah everybody's trying their best aren't they right and and that's almost never not the case

everyone is pretty much trying their best you know I I uh there are a number of books out psychology books and and uh even economics books about the fact that we have two brains in our head there's uh there's the uh what I call the the the Conan the barbarian brain um which is the much more primitive brain and it's the amygdala and it's reactive and it's emotional and it's the it's what you need when you see a lion in the jungle or when there's a speeding car coming for your kid

you don't have time to think it through and think about the physics of the situation you just need to react and then there's the Sherlock Holmes brain where that's the analytical side that's the prefrontal cortex that's the thing that is supposed to take the signals and incorporate them into your map of the world and act appropriately and and that the Grace that you mentioned is a shorthand for remaining in the Sherlock Holmes brain rather than yeah

taking the anger that you feel about this situation because your kid won't stop screaming right and and reacting and treating that as if it's real you take it for the signal

it is why am I feeling so angry right now oh I'm feeling so angry because I am at my wit's end trying to figure out trying to troubleshoot this problem with my child and I feel inadequate I feel like this is a symbol of the entire fatherhood journey right and that is causing me to feel this anger the kid isn't the problem the problem is the framing yeah and and actually it's not even merely a problem it's also an opportunity to feel powerful to feel to rise above that

but you have to stay in that Sherlock Holmes brain you have to give yourself the Grace and that also goes for other people you give your child the Grace that they're trying their best too it is a baby it the only signal that it has to get you to do what it needs you to do is the screaming yeah and imagine how frustrating that is I remember having the realization when our boy was young he ate four or five times what people were saying that we should feed him he would just keep eating

it was the most amazing thing we would eat we we fed him 2 3 times um the amount that they told us oh you know he'll probably eat about this many milliliters and he was at three times that and he was still crying it turns out he was still crying because he was still hungry right and the number of milliliters or any of that stuff that wasn't and that's not gospel just keep feeding him until he's not hungry anymore and it turned out that our boy's experience the first

I don't know month of his life was that his stomach was too small for him to feel sated his stomach would be full and he would still feel hungry and and so he was upset about that and it was you know and we had to troubleshoot through that and it would I I remember feeling this this anger and that's that's what it was it was this how could I be so bad at this yeah and you know you you mentioned you didn't put it in these terms but you mentioned the this

this lone wolf mythology that we have in our culture

and I've come to this realization relatively recently that we all stand on the shoulders of giants and everyone you see everyone you admire has a team and and they have you know they have partners they have children they have parents they have friends they have aunts uncles they have non family family and even if it seems like this person is a lone wolf lone cowboy kind of ruling the planet thing that's never the case and if you think you need to do it alone you're doing it wrong yeah

and I found that I was doing that a lot I was not willing to rely on other people I was not willing to accept the wisdom that other people were giving me because I wanted to do it my own way and that that's not right we we need to find it's not the most effective way to do it the most effective way to do it is with community yeah and I think and you know part part of that comes from part of that comes from two is is knowing what you've done prior to becoming a parent

you know a lot of the times I I think it's so strategic that we have nine months to prepare for a baby right because because really those nine months should be very very intentional work towards making sure your finances are in a position to where you can adequately serve your household yeah making sure that your emotions are in check dealing with some things that you thought you had dealt with but really haven't dealt with investing in a community that when this baby comes

is there to support you and so that nine months is a really crucial time especially for men because you know women the moment they find out they're pregnant are physically connected to that baby that's right until it's born right like that's an immediate lifestyle change no matter what for us as men you know we hear it we're told it you know we can see the ultrasound and and we can know that we were a part of it but really like until that baby is physically here your role feels insignificant

but it's really not like your role as a father in those nine months is actually so crucial because you are building a way to facilitate potential problems you're you're working on communication strategies you're working on things that you are ahead of time seeing down the road knowing that a major change in our life a major change in how we spend uh where we spend our time at who we spend our time with is coming and I can either wait and try and figure it out on the fly

which is just not my suggestion because of how difficult it is but you can really start in this moment and say man there's a lot of things that I think I could tighten up that would bless my family and bless my household when this baby comes yeah yeah I that preparation aspect I I absolutely love that sentiment I it's something that I wish that I had appreciated and done more when when we were expecting when we had I I I wasted those nine months frankly and um and so ended up scrambling on

on the other side of it and you know don't get me wrong like as much as I would love to say we got it all figured out in nine months like there there's a lot of time I wasted oh yeah yeah yeah and and and I'd love to say I haven't figured out five years down the road but I don't right um so yeah so people that are listening that are like man I wasted my nine months it's over no it's not over but but if you if you have the privilege um to actively prepare fatherhood

you are successful in fatherhood with adequate preparation because it's inevitable that your kid is gonna say something do something experience something that affects the way that you function yeah your kids your kids mom is gonna do things experience things say something that affects the way that you function and either you can be the peace that blesses your household or you can be the gasoline on a on a smoldering fire that sets everything ablaze and that that comes from individual work

that's not necessarily something you can rely on your wife for you can rely on your kid for because they're hoping that you've got enough peace about you that when bad things happen you don't panic you know that's that is such an excellent point and you know there's a third option too which is you run away and you and you don't confront the issue at all and so you know dealing with conflict is is a real challenge uh for a lot of men I think and I certainly struggled with this and and obviously

the hardest way to deal with conflict is to head it to to keep calm and deal with it straight on and I think a lot of us choose avoidance or a lot of us choose choose we puff up our chests and we and we confront it in an unhealthy way how do you how do you feel like fathers can model a healthy way to deal with conflict especially you know for their sons or you know how do you deal with conflict how do you think about conflict and the truth is is that we we are a product of of what we saw

uh I fully believe that men will do better when they're shown better yeah men require demonstration and so a lot of the times if we ever saw our dad handle conflict that's kind of the natural way that we lean into handling conflict ourselves so if your dad was an explosive angry type you tend to be that way or you tend to be so anti that that you end up going complete opposite direction to where you're just kind of a pushover and you don't care about anything and you just let it all happen

that's right so so conflict management strategies come from a handful of places No. 1 like I talked about it's your identity if your identity is in something that is temporary or that often changes through the fluidity of culture or you know we I so the other day I I have a partially torn rotator cuff and it's affected the way that I've been able to work out and so like God has been convicting me about my identity in in in fitness and like don't get me wrong fellas like I want you in the gym

being the best version of yourself physically that you can be but when something as minuscule as a minor injury occurs that it that it warps your entire ideology of who you are as a man that's dangerous absolutely you know what I mean when when even in fatherhood like a lot of a lot of culture and society glamorizes a really bought in father but almost to the point that we've pushed a dad to saying hey you're only good when you crush it as a father so that when you do inevitably fail

which we all will it it wrecks your whole world that's right and so if you've not if you've not Learned how to separate your identity from things that change you're just on a path of of constant disaster because we fail that's we we are human beings and the other thing I think that's super important about conflict management is is perspective you know it's really easy to look at the rest of the world and think about how it serves you or how it's failed you the reality is

is that everybody wakes up every day with something you know what I mean like on on the same planet we live right now while recording a podcast there are kids that are starving yeah I mean seriously like that's a real a real life issue that there are kids waking up today looking for their next meal to keep them alive for today yeah and so perspective really matters you know when when when your child is tired and they're hungry and they're over stimulated and I that's your job man

that's where you get to slide in and and be the peace when when your kid's mom has has been taking care of the house and has been you know trying her best to to navigate this and and the baby's not listening or or you know your toddler's being a crazy person if you don't have the perspective to look at her or to look at your kid and know man in this moment you must be really going through it how can I bless it all you're gonna do is see this affects me this upsets me this bothers me so

then your response is gonna be out of a victim mindset and you can't be a successful father and a victim that's right yeah I I I'm not sure that you could be a successful person and a victim also fair but certainly not a successful father and A and a and a victim and you know that brings to mind the concept of accountability and I I remember something you said from our prep sessions that puts it so succinctly that I'd love for you to expand on which was that accountability is love

and I feel like that's such a powerful statement I would love to inspect that some more how how do you feel that applies to fatherhood and and how do you how does that apply to your son and and your dynamic with your son's mom yeah so it's a process um I think I think if I can frame anything for anybody is that if you don't have it figured out today it doesn't mean you won't eventually have it figured out you know this this is a this is a clay pot that we are waking up and shaping every day

if you think that there's gonna be a final product at 3 years old you're you're confused and you're gonna get your feelings hurt so No. 1 knowing that every day you're just doing your best so the the Better Dad podcast came with not being better than anybody else but with an effort to be better as often as we can be yep and so the idea of accountability in love it's just like we look at our kids and you know my son walks in and wants to grab a kitchen knife and and sword fight with it right

why while in his head he 100% has no intention of of you know cutting anyone's finger off that's the reality that could happen yeah so my ability to foresee potential problems and in that moment caution or speak against his decisions prevents future um problems yeah and so that that essentially is accountability from me to my child but also like I spoke about earlier having a community of accountability as well for people that you trust and you've given permission to to say hey man

this is not you this response is is completely out of character are you good do we need to step away do we need to go you know hit a few golf balls and and like get some stuff off your chest because your family relies on you to be a central focal point of peace right like our our our children and our our children's parents thrive when we at our core are peaceful yeah this world is full of chaos there's always gonna be chaos you turn on social media or the news it's chaos after chaos after chaos

that's right that's the business model of those and so if if if we can't find a way to to navigate that chaos you know it doesn't mean that it goes away you can't you can't keep your kid or your household from chaos you know that I think the other mistake we make as parents sometime is that we're so quick to keep our kid from

scraping their knee from riding the bike that they never learn how to deal with the scraped knee it's not necessarily preventing chaos it's it's educating um how how to handle it but also remaining um in a place of peace from it so yeah the the accountability is love is is our culture is so about tolerance and acceptance and and I really think that that's a tough model for accountability because we just accept whatever it is for however it is because we don't want to hurt somebody's feelings

or say the wrong thing yeah but in my household it's not about acceptance and tolerance right it's about prevention and and education and it's about you know I was I was I was instructed and and given the responsibility of taking care of my son and it would be a disservice to his well being if I was not willing to hold him accountable even if it was difficult yeah yeah there's one of the signals that I that I've understood about the world is that there's always attention and so when you say oh

you know we need accountability or or sorry we need we need acceptance and love okay that's great but what is that intention with and that is intention with accountability and there's always that tension always exists and you need to find the healthy balance at any moment of how much do we need of this thing at the end of the story what you need to create as a father in my view is you need those castle walls you need your family to feel like okay in this area we're safe

we're psychologically safe we're physically safe we can deal the chaos that's out there in the world isn't going to come in here it's not made it is dampened here it is not made worse here yes and all of this all everything we're talking about here the accountability the acceptance the love the uh the Grace all of that is contributing to that walled in safe space where we can feel okay I I am I am free to explore my personality I'm free to explore with behaviors and one of the things

so my son constantly does things that that blow my head up I it like how can you be that crazy to have done that thing this morning he took the television remote and put it in his mouth just as far back as it would go just to experiment and see how things would go and on the one hand that drives me crazy and he's looking at me when he does that and I said what are you doing did you just put that in your mouth and he goes yeah it just it just felt good

and I go we can't put the remote in our mouth man and he goes okay but so on the one hand it's maddening because what are you doing putting the remote in your mouth on the other hand there's a part in the back of my head that says you know what you've kind of succeeded as a father in this moment because he felt safe enough to do that experiment that's good and the experiment was crazy yeah but at least he feels like he can experiment he doesn't feel like

I'm gonna fly off the handle or go something crazy or do something insane or anything like that and I thought I had that thought this morning when that happened and frankly he does stuff like this every day and there's that tension again right it's the tension between I want him to to feel comfortable to go out and find his individuality but I also need him to be part of the social fabric of the world and to collaborate with other people you know one thing that's it's

I was thinking about in in this idea of how far do we go with intervention with our kids at what age you know do we let them experiment further the older they get I'll never forget in my in my mid 20s I was just chasing the world and my mom who was a and continues to be a spiritual foundation in my life was so clear about being against where I was and what I was doing but so present and loving me yeah that she didn't have to accept what I was doing in order to love me the same way

and her willingness to love me while also being staunchly against what I was doing was like the greatest form of love I've ever experienced yeah and her ability to both love me but also stand firm in what she knew was wrong and and make it a point for me to understand that it was wrong yeah like that was such the greatest form of love I think I've ever experienced because just like we said about your circle of influence you'll find that you've got a lot of yes men in your circle

because either your relationship gives them purpose

you've got some business acumen they're trying to absorb you're just in the same field at the same time so it just makes sense to be together right but the reality is is that the people who really matter who really have an impact on your life and what you're doing are the ones who can both actively love you but resist poor behavior yeah and that's that's true love and so the same thing with my child I want my son to know man I've got your back and I love you fiercely and unconditionally

but I also resist this type of behavior because I know it's incorrect yeah I somebody who can give you constructive criticism is a gold mine in your life absolutely nobody and and and you should be able to do that for other people as well and and cause it's hard people will tear you down people will be happy to tear you down and people will be happy to blow smoke up your skirt uh huh very few people will actually give you criticism that is that is constructive in nature in in in a positive way

in a way that is there to build you up and um I think a lot of people are resistant to hear criticisms um we're used to hearing them from our enemies you know in the form of attacks right and when it comes from our friends it can feel really scary because maybe we don't have the community we thought we did right right and but we need to have again it goes back to that Grace of being able to hear the difficult thing to hear and respond with gratitude yes and you know mom

that's not the kind of thing I wanted to hear right now but I really appreciate you being willing to share it is a tough you know it wasn't it wasn't even an immediate response either right like I stayed in this in this path of destruction yeah and I just remember knowing where she stood but also not feeling any kind of resistance from our love and like that was it was it was such a weird but like heavenly balance of man I love you so much but I love you so much that I'm not willing to accept or

or tolerate what you're doing because I have always cared about your well being and I know how this ends and so the other the other thing about about community cause we we as men struggle with this we we go man we want good strong men in our life but you know where where are those guys at how do I even find them that's right and you know we think it's in the workplace or it's a buddy we golf with on the weekends and and you find yourself in these very surface level conversations yep how

are the kids how's golf how's work good good great I mean as men we say it's fine it's fine it's fine and we don't really know that there's 257 other emotions that we can have as responses to stuff it's either I'm fine or I'm angry that's what we know that's right so developing a community first means being someone who who can participate in community driven things like how do you invite other men into your life I talked about giving permission one of my closest friends

um Nick is a guy who when we first met I would have hit him in the mouth for talking to me the way that he talks to me right but but as we have done life together and as we've like really he's carried me through a lot of really tough moments um his ability to say really difficult things I've had to give him permission to and even now there are times where I'm like dude you're way off base I'm not trying to hear it but three four five hours later when I've sat in it I'm like man

he's so right yeah and and I know he's right because because Nick doesn't need anything from me he's not my friend because I've got some sort of business acumen that he's trying to to absorb and work for his business he's there because he loves me and he loves my kid so when he speaks some hard truth into my life it's because he loves me I'm like that that kind of community that kind of like relational um proximity from another strong man who's who's actively seeking to be a good father

and a husband in his own life it's invaluable that's right and and I think that so my wife has eight women like that in her life and um if we're not careful we'll end up with zero and I think a lot of men have zero have zero friends essentially meaning people that they could come to in a real moment of desperation you know what's funny is that and I've I've given this analogy to men before when you're getting married in your early or late 20s men never have a problem picking their groomsmen

it's always the the brides that are trying to find bridesmaids or or you know yeah have enough or have the right ones or you know does Tiffany not get along with Haley or you know all this stuff right but then you flip it and you go 20 30 40 years down the road into your marriage if you were to ask those men hey if you were to get married again today who would be your groomsmen uh huh and the panic that comes over those men's face because all of those men

that they thought were their day one guys they haven't spoken to right and the women they've you know they've got a whole book club of people that they can get together with right now they'd have 30 40 women up there and and we're like okay so why are we struggling I go yeah because we have no groomsmen yeah we have no men in our corner and so like the the toughest thing about 30 and on is that our male friendships dwindle and and we say we get busy or we say

you know we just don't like the same things but just like anything it takes active participation it takes a willingness and and um I think we've just lost the value in what it means to have good strong men in the same room and like what kind of stuff that inspires for them and the rest of the world and their families and we're losing the cultural institutions that made that happen by default a little bit right I mean everybody's work from home now and so there isn't the office you know

you don't have the office friendships you used to have because because you're not going into the office and having lunch with right Joe um the the significance and importance of churches has dwindled substantially in the last 20 years or so and so we don't have that as fellowship anymore we don't have nobody's you know you know you there are there are no young members of the Masons right and and that's something I think we would do well as men to

figure out how to rebuild because the tools are there right the in this digital virtual age we should be able to create that sense of community in a positive way much better than everybody could 50 years ago yeah for sure but we're we're not quite there yet we're still maybe it's just we're you know we're 20 years in and we're still in the early days of social media but it seems to me that social media is being used as a as a way to drive people apart or create anger these days

as opposed to to bring fellowship and that's we need to be intentional about creating these spaces where where men can have fellowship I think yes and again like I said the the the podcast that I started was because when I started to look for literature on like

dads that were just ripping space apart crushing it that there just wasn't a lot of dynamic literature it was like hey man love them keep them alive do your best and I was like I I had those three down I think right but like where where was the where was the value in like community where was the value in Grace and conflict management and and losing your identity to fleeting changing fluid things like none of that was there and so like I am not the authority on anything at all so like don't

don't Google my PhD cause it's in nothing you won't find it but you know what I mean like just the heart of like pioneering um vulnerability out loud and saying man I did this well you should try it or like I totally screwed this up you should avoid it yeah you know another one of those tensions that that brings to mind for me is this tension between vulnerability and resilience and I'm I'm wondering what how you feel about that and how you think about that and you know

obviously resilience comes from experiencing pain and experiencing failure and getting back up after you fall off the horse um and you know you want to encourage that in your boy you want to make sure that he that he has resilience on the same token you want to express your empathy too right and and so somehow you have to communicate that I'm here for you I have your back but you're the one who needs to stand up and dust yourself off and go get back on the horse I can't put you back on the horse

and that's a tension that I've really struggled with in my in my journey I wonder how you deal with that so it's funny I yesterday the day before was National Sons Day or whatever something came across Facebook and I posted a picture of my kid and I said fatherhood is about balance it's about sometimes knowing that boo boos need kissed and sometimes knowing that boo boos need dirt rubbed in them sometimes knowing that he needs water and sometimes knowing he needs an ice cold Fanta

you know it's sometimes knowing that just just the the navigating each moment because there's no handbook or rule book on how this is supposed to be there really is a lot of value in a mother and her nurturing ability and there's a lot of value in a father in his position of security yeah and when you co parent you kind of have to absorb both roles sometimes yeah I can imagine and that's and that's tough because that can be confusing to your kid um and that can be

that can be essentially stealing from them too because you weren't adequately designed to to facilitate that role at all but so my son very often and and and not just my son but you will see that kids look to how you react to the conflict they experience you know if he falls down the the women in our life are oh are you okay and like it's just this immediate panic and it's not from a wrong place they are like fixers and and helpers and nurturers and so

they saw their baby hurt and they want to run to him but I also know that my son looks at me and he goes my response is is gonna be directly affected by the way that my dad responds to this mm hmm and if I'm not prepared I have the same panic yeah and if I instill panic in my son's life his default response to conflict will be panic that's right and so it it doesn't mean bubble wrapping him when he rides a bike it doesn't mean not allowing him to go to birthday parties

cause kids have snot they might get it on him it's it's not any of that it's the idea that hey man when you get in my truck can you tell me about something that happened so they at a school they can they can lose points or get points for behavior whatever it's a it's a great way for parents to partner with the schools you know after after school hours yeah and so I saw on the app that he lost a point so we got in the truck and I said hey what happened he said well

this kid was doing this and I said hey I said I'm not that kid's dad and I asked you what happened and so he stopped for a minute and and like he saw that I wasn't gonna continue the narrative that it was somebody else's fault and and that's a small thing but at 5 years old it's I've never taught my son how to lie you know what I mean there wasn't like a class where we sat down and said hey this is how you get yourself out of trouble you just tell somebody what they want to hear

that's never been taught to my son of course not but somehow my son knows how to do that yep right there's a brokenness about us as humans which which is why I believe as a Christ follower that we need Jesus but when I when I look at my son he has by default Learned how to protect himself almost at a scary disadvantage and I really believe that that like true masculine fatherhood comes in learning to apologize asking for forgiveness and and doing it organically not being forced into it

so we had this conversation in my truck where I said hey regardless of what somebody else does what did you do like what was your response in this moment and he realized that yeah he could have been better he could have walked away from that situation and so a lot of times it's trying to help your kids get to the realization that you've already known yeah because we have 30 40 50 years of life experience that we've you know stepped in enough potholes to know

we can see one 10 feet away and be like alright I'm gonna swerve but my son who's just now learning how to drive is hitting every pothole along the way that's right so so I can either go pave the road for him for right now and he just have this smooth sailing and then when he goes to college at 18 he's never seen a pothole then he just wrecks his entire life yeah or I can help him navigate potholes or or repair his car once he drives over you know what I mean so it's just yeah of um

not keeping our kids from panic um but but having a response of peace and security in that moment so that they know how to handle things adequately yeah yeah and there's you know there are potholes in the road that aren't gonna damage the car and then there are ditches on the side of the road that will destroy the car hmm and you can't let him go off into the ditch but you gotta let you gotta let him hit the potholes right and there's again going back to this kind of central theme

there's always attention and there's a tension between bubble wrapping your kids and

you know when they get off in the world they're going to be completely unprepared and there's also a tension between letting them letting them experience issues that aren't recoverable from their age right or or that will cause permanent damage we can't let that happen either and it's I sat with a counselor one time a counselor told me kids are really resilient yeah and I remember hating that I hate I still hate that like kids are resilient they will recover from your parents mess UPS early on

that sucks that's that should not be a statistical fact that counselors are telling people right like I don't need my son to be resilient he wakes up every day learning how to be a better person you know I I want his biggest obstacle to be do I want Cheez its or do I want lays for lunch that's that's what I want my son to to labor over right not whether or not his dad was unhealed not whether or not his dad couldn't give up certain addictions or not

because his dad wasn't willing to do the repair so that he could be a whole healed person for his son uh huh so while kids are resilient I think fathers fathers need to avoid having resilient children yeah fathers need to avoid forcing their kids to be resilient yeah I think part of I think one of the tensions there is that's absolutely true but going back to what you said before you also need to give yourself the Grace to recognize that just cause you screwed that one thing up doesn't mean your

your kid is resilient and we'll get over that it will be okay um but you did screw it up and you need to make sure that doesn't happen again yeah the reality though is that you can still lead and screw UPS I think that's what men miss men men have never been taught that bad things can yield good things we've been told that as a society if you did something wrong that's on your permanent record that will dictate who you are in the way that the world sees you the reality is is that when I screw up

I have an opportunity to get on my knees and look eye to eye with my child and tell him that I was wrong that's right and I can I can even educate him and teach him on how to be wrong my my my ability to apologize to own responsibility to ask for forgiveness from my 5 year old shows him how to experience being wrong and doing it in a manner of Grace and doing it in a manner of respect because again as men we are the dismissive culture like out of sight out of mind

as long as I just tuck it in my pocket no one will ever see it no one will ever know it and and then it just and it just grows and it grows and it grows and it grows and then the reality is is I've had to learn I wanted to be a hero for my son from the moment he was born I wanted to be I just a superhero but the reality is is that if I convince my son that I do no wrong and eventually he sees me do wrong

I will have shattered his entire expectation of what it looks like that's right so I think hero qualities for humans you know not for Iron Man or for Thor or Hulk I think hero qualities for men come in learning to apologize often to ask for forgiveness to be gentle in gentle moments and bold in bold moments you don't have to pick a side I told my son the other day this intruder drill because unfortunately we live in a world now where five year olds have to practice what would happen

if some psychopath showed up to their school yeah so he was he was nervous about it he was asking me like I don't really wanna go to school tomorrow or like what is this what is this what is this and and I said son here's what'll happen if that ever occurs they will lock the doors and so I'm I'm fortunate enough to have one of his teachers be a relative of mine and so I said what will happen is they'll lock the doors you guys will go hide our relative will text me and I will come to the school

and I will dismember him in the parking lot and I will leave him in pieces for the rest of the school to see when they leave and it was morbid and it but I was dead serious yeah and so he's sitting in the back of my truck looking at me and he goes I know that to be true and so while some moments I'm on my knees looking at him saying daddy messed up I'm sorry I'm also telling him that I would rip his arms and legs off the person that ever tried to hurt him yeah so you can live in both worlds

yeah that's right you have to otherwise you you fall down this road of push over or you're just the the guy who tries to lead out of fear and manipulation and you go the opposite direction so it's about balance man it really is yeah give me I'd like to end by by talking about one thing that you just look back on and wish man I wish I'd done that differently what's one big mistake that you made or one one thing that if I gave you the chance to do over one thing what would it be that's tough um

because now five years in everything that was in the moment bad has only

has only produced a high caliber of character that's made me love my child more two two things I'll say No. 1 if at all possible find a way to make it work with your kids parent I understand that things happen and that there are you know brokenness and relationships and and things that hurt but it is it is easier to parent in the same house and if it is all possible to put your pride aside to find a way to make it work even if it's 10 years down the road um I I would always advocate for a

whole household now if that doesn't happen doesn't mean you cannot be successful doesn't mean you cannot still work in harmony with the with the other side because it's totally doable 100% but that would be my first thing and the second thing that I think I would suggest a mistake that I made and then I'm I'm actively making it's it's it's consistently removing yourself from the position where your identity as a father is the sole driving point to what you do because when they're 6 months old

all they do is you know pee poop cry and sleep yeah and so you can take as many pictures you can put him in the stroller and take him to the mall and you go to the park and everybody's like oh you're so great you're so great but then they become 3 and 4 and 5 and then you take them to a restaurant and then they have breakdowns and everybody looks at you and you're like oh dude you're making me look bad and I was this good father and I was I was killing it but now people are looking at me

and I'm not this good father anymore and I found that my identity as a dad is is just as fluid as everything else in my life so so I really know that having a relationship with Jesus that I have found my hope in that I'm genuinely like it's this is it allows me to have the freedom to find purpose but not identity in these other things and so knowing that when I do screw up which is inevitable there is Grace that allows me to repair and move forward I I love that sentiment I I I um

I I absolutely love that sentiment um on the flip side of that what is one thing that you've done that you just are proud of that you just I know I crushed that

being present um a lot of times men think that they are ill equipped to be fathers and the truth is you are we are 100% ill equipped there is not enough books you can read there is not enough parenting classes you can attend there's nothing you can do to fully prepare you for becoming responsible for another human being yep but you can show up and even if it's been 15 years since you've showed up you can show up today or tomorrow and and while there may be resistance

and while there may be things that you don't know or that you're not really sure how to navigate the reality is is that my son may say I've been a mess he may say I've handled things poorly he may say that you know I did all these different things but he can say it because he saw it because I was there and so I fully believe that that the greatest gift you can give your child is your time that currency is ever ever ever ever being spent every day everywhere we go and whether you work an 8 to 5

when you get off you better lock in you better put your phone away you better get in front of your kid and you better remind them how special they are if you have the privilege to work from home or or have a job that you have some flexibility um one thing I'm very grateful for both his mom and I have had flexible work schedules that he didn't have to have daycare um in the first three three four years of his life yeah and so we got some really really good time with him and

and it's really made an impact on his development and he is so secure even in two households knowing that man my mom and my dad they were there and and I never had to wonder if my dad was gonna be at a soccer game or never had to wonder if my mom was gonna you know come be a part of this like we were there so your presence man your presence matters yeah and and and more than just being there physically being there with your attention and and your and your mental energy you're not

you know browsing Twitter or or um you know text messaging unnecessarily

right while you're supposedly with your kid and I find that that can be some of the most fulfilling time that you end up spending with them is that just trash time you're just driving in the car and hanging out and having some conversation about whatever I I've I found that to be some really really gold nugget time something I'm doing in the I we talked about this in the in the console prior to this episode is that in in the studio that I'm that I'm in right now we own

we've started something called the Legacy Project and we bring men in and we tell their stories of you know birth origins all the way to where they are now and we ask them questions about their own father you know what is the best thing he did for you what is the worst thing he did how's your relationship with him now and 10 15 guys all had a similar response and it it it wasn't that my dad gave me everything I wanted there was never one Christmas I remember getting a cell phone or

or getting a car or like none of them not a single person cared about a single Christmas or birthday gift they ever got never mentioned none of them cared what their dad did none of them not one person was like well my dad was the CEO for this company and so it got us cool perks and we got to go to basketball games and none of them every single person that sat in this room that poured their heart about their relationship with the father is that he was there I I don't even

I don't even remember how he responded I don't even care how he responded I just knew he was there I just knew that when I came home from school that he was there when I woke up he was there I watched him ride the lawn mower I watched him play baseball with me and like they they weren't praising their father's attributes of just of just amazing psychologically healed perfect fatherhood characteristics yeah it's not as difficult as as what we think there's a lot of men that have run from this

this privilege because they thought they weren't built for it the truth is you're not but you are crafted in the midst of it like you are refined through fatherhood fatherhood brings out the greatest parts of you and I we talked about this and this I'll tell you this last thing I'm an only child I've no brothers or sisters I've got no DNA shared with anybody I don't you know nobody looks like me it's probably a good thing but so so I I become a father

and I'm holding him and I know he's my kid right like I know I was there for the birth I was there for the delivery I saw it they handed him to me I'm on the birth certificate like all these things but you know I I was like I don't know I don't know if I've connected with this thing and I was I was like I'm a piece of crap dude how how do you not connect with this yeah and I'm so frustrated because his mom she had no problem like that that was her baby

from the moment she found out she was pregnant and he came out and it was hers and she loved him and and he ate from her and he loved her and she sued him and so I'll never forget

I was about 90 days in and he's in his bassinet and he wakes up and he's crying and and I I I run in there you know you just so panic you think something's going wrong and I grab him and I pick him up and I look down at him and I've been a father for like three months and I look at this little boy and for the first time I like remember seeing a baby picture of me and then seeing him and being like dude you you came from me this is so cool and then when I spoke and he heard my voice

and he knew that my voice was safe and he stopped crying dude like I I was I was shook because I was given that privilege to be the security for another human being that my voice that my heartbeat that my smell that my temperature gave peace to another human but it was 90 days after he was born that's right and so all these men are like dude you know I I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that it wasn't love at first sight and I'm like dude I'm telling you right now I didn't you know

I knew I was supposed to but I didn't fall in love with him until like 90 days in and at first I was embarrassed to admit that but what I found is that when I talk to men men struggle with that too you know we didn't have the privilege of it growing inside of us so overnight they're just like hey now you are responsible for this entire child's well being forever good luck and you're like oh Sheesh and I'm having a hard time manufacturing care for this yeah thing yeah and I uh

this was exactly my experience as well and I had I felt like the ideal was you fall in love with your baby the instant he looks you in the eye which is what happened with my wife as well and that it couldn't be farther from the truth from me and I felt ashamed and I felt like a failure right out the gate and what I discovered is that that's the norm everybody I talk to nine out of 10 have that exact same experience and the one out of 10 is oh yeah

I fell in love with my baby the instant he came out into the world and that's the abnormal thing and it's beautiful and it's wonderful and I'm thrilled for those people yes but the normal thing is what you and I experienced yeah it's a struggle and it doesn't come naturally we are not wired the way women are and it's and it's not talked about either like I think I think men suffer in silence a lot because admitting that would would would tell the world and he doesn't love his kid

it feels shameful that's exactly right when deep down all that dude wants to do is love his kid that's right and so I think conversations like this man what you're doing is so crucial because there are fathers soon to be fathers current fathers seasoned fathers that listen to this and go man me too so I I fully believe in healing publicly and so that someone who's suffering privately can experience the same kind of healing yeah I do too that's exactly why we're embarking on this journey

together so before we wrap up give me one good principle that you adopt and why you think that's important one good principle that I adopt that I think is very important your child will do what you do regardless of how good or bad it is they see the best and the worst parts of you social media you can lie you can convince everybody else that you got it all together but your kids see you your kids see how you interact with women your kids see how you interact with weight

weight staff they see how you do business they hear phone calls that you make they see how you respond to conflict they see the food that you eat the work you do or don't do in the gym they see all of it and that will directly influence the decisions and choices that they make so do right that's a fantastic principle and that's a great place for us to leave it off Caleb Scott is the CEO of Better Dad Company he is the host of the Better Dad Podcast Caleb thank you again

so much for taking the time to be part of this and I look forward to catching up with you in the future yes sir thanks Sean I'm your friend thanks