Healing the Modern Man: Lessons from Mindful Men with Simon Rinne

being emotionally aware of ourselves and other people as well it's about teaching them about the world it's about not putting them in front of a TV or an iPad or a screen and letting them learn about the world that way it's about actually showing them the world welcome back to Raising Men my guest today is Simon Rennie Simon is the founder and clinical lead at Mindful Men and the host of the Mindful Men Podcast

a podcast about using mindfulness to cultivate a more meaningful existence Simon thank you so much for being here Sean thanks so much for having me I'm really looking forward to having a good chat now so do me a favor tell me about mindfulness and what is the impact on parents and sons oh fantastic question so mindfulness I guess means different things to different people but for me it means conscious awareness so being really conscious about what we're doing

bringing the subconscious to the conscious being mindful being present um

and particularly useful for parents who might be struggling with being on the same planet as their kids in the moment and you know thinking about work thinking about study or thinking about whatever else has to happen um so mindfulness enables us to be more present parents as well so that's in a nutshell what it means to me I love that definition it's it it it it feels very actionable I love I'm really looking forward to digging into it now I know from understanding your background

I understand that there is a lot of struggle in your history and you know struggles come they they get imposed on us externally and that creates a feedback loop where where you know we just kind of go through it internally as well and we cause our own struggles to some degree can you take us back to the season where you realized that something needed to change in your life and what happened with that oh so much so many seasons in between um to take it back a little bit and rain me in

if you need me cause I'll I'll go on and on and on about this by all means essentially when I was eight years old I developed obsessive compulsive disorder um which remained undiagnosed for 20 years and along the way developed depression and generalized anxiety as well but again remained undiagnosed and for many years I drank alcohol to to cope and to manage true um but it was around 2,012 when my my now wife encouraged me to go and get support for my mental health and for a couple years

I kind of deflected and pushed it back on her saying well I don't have an issue if if you've got an issue maybe you should go and talk about it um but it took about two years for her to to keep pressing that button and then me realizing that I need to go get help

so I did I went to my GP and then I went to see a psychologist and started the mental health treatment that I needed but I expected a magic fix I expected to go in do a couple of sessions come out and be healed and that didn't happen so fast forward to 2020 I'm not sure if you remember what happened in 2020 but we had the seal of Covid ha ha we had this thing called Covid

I was working from home cause we were locked down we had 2 kids under 3 so my wife was home with the kids um I was still drinking uh my mental health was off the rocket and I essentially burnt out so I was in a really high stress work environment I was studying a master's degree at the same time I had too many things on my plate and through burnout this is where I discovered mindfulness through my healing journey and it really put a lot of things into perspective

um but it wasn't just about mindfulness it was about connecting in with what's called a lived experience therapist so someone who had an experience of burnout and was willing to share their experience of burnout and for the first time in my therapy journey it felt like I was being seen and heard and understood properly for the first time cause I've been to all these different therapists but it felt like there was always a disconnect

yeah and so when I got this connection both through the therapist and my GP actually my GP shared about his burnout story too I started to realise ah there's some you know other people out there that feel like me and and have experienced similar to me and we're speaking the same language and through therapy found mindfulness and this ability to come back to the present and be present cause that's what I really needed when I was burnt out I was on a different planet uh

the lights were on but nobody was home um

and that would be with work that would be with my kids and my wife and I didn't like that um so this is to 2020 and and so five years on really starting to work on the mindfulness piece but also recovery from a proactive perspective rather than a reactive perspective you know I'm guessing that if your experience is anything like mine in in things like this you kick yourself for how much time you spent in denial about what you could do about your situation and and like you wasted all those years

why is talking about mental health and seeking out mental health such a struggle for so many men I I experience it too and I really can't even access why

I'm glad you asked that question cause it's probably where the story starts actually so I'm on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland but I grew up in a place called Adelaide in South Australia so different state different part of Australia isn't that and in the 30 minute daylight savings time I was 30 minutes yeah at the moment and then on the east coast we've got an hour depending on if you're in Melbourne or Sydney or or Hobart so we're a bit of a odd country in terms of daylight safe it's amazing

it's amazing but I grew up in Adelaide alright I didn't mean to derail you no yeah you're right um I'm all about derails and and tangents so that's all good um I grew up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide which is very working class it's it's lower socio economic um my dad worked at the council my mum worked as a cleaner we weren't rich by any means and in the 80s and 90s which is when I grew up we didn't talk about mental health in fact men to be a boy and to be a man

was to be strong and tough and suck it up and bottle it down and all those types of things and and that's how we dealt with emotions yeah now the the flip side of that is that boys were I guess allowed to show anger and many that's the case for many boys it was socially acceptable for a boy to show anger

they still get in trouble wow yeah but it was more socially acceptable than to say sit there and cry about what's going on it's sad so true and so I embodied that I didn't have any positive male role models including my father and and sports coaches and teachers and friends who would go into the emotional side of things and so I learnt just like many boys and many men today and over the generations as well that to be a boy and to be a man was to suck it up

yeah and so when I turned 8 and I developed OCD I didn't have the words to express or or the knowledge of how to express what was happening internally for me so it stayed a silent struggle and there was a little bit of shame a little bit of guilt about feeling different as well but I persevered and we kept going with it now this really ramped up around 13 when mum and dad separated so I me and my little brother

we moved out with mum and my two oldest brothers stayed with dad and this broke the family dynamic as well but I felt all of a sudden like there needed to be a man of the house and that man was me as a 13 year old wow what a burden and and that's what the that's what life was like in in that period of time there was a man of the house all my friends there was a man of the house whether it was a father whether it was an uncle staying with them whether it was a grandparent

true but that was me as a 13 year old and this is where my mental health really declined because my obsessive compulsive disorder ramped up my depression ramped up my anxiety ramped up but I didn't know how to talk about it and so I just kept plugging away trying to live day to day and then I eventually found alcohol around 15 and alcohol helped to slow my brain

and slow the emotions and and feel normal if that makes sense it does and it just kept getting bottled and buried and buried and buried and this is what I see time in and time out in in the clinic work that I do now as a therapist is this this constant bottling up of emotions and this inability to share and express in a healthy way in fact one of the most common questions I get when we have someone call the clinic is Simon we're looking for a positive male role model for my 19 year old son

or my 18 year old son um and so that's the work that we go on is is trying to show them that yes you can talk about this stuff and you're not gonna be seen as weak or or anything like that it's actually a strong thing to talk about your mental health but when we go back to why men are like this and why boys are like this is

is this concept called social constructions of masculinity so we're socially constructed to feel and be a certain way based on our environment and based on time as well so I often talk about the 80s and 90s because that was a different time to 2,025 you know we're talking about mental health now whereas we didn't do that in the 80s and 90s and with the work that I do with older men in my clinic the 70s 60s 50s 40s they didn't talk about mental health right we do a lot of work with veterans

for example and the older veterans so I'm talking World War 2 um even Vietnam they're more reluctant to talk about mental health than say veterans who have been to Afghanistan or Iraq or anything like that because it's just so different it's a different time period and it's still seen as a weakness particularly for men yeah I I definitely it's almost like it's a it's a self imposed stigma that that we impose it on ourselves we feel shame about not being perfect but if you're if you don't

if you're not able to recognize your own imperfections then you have no way of eliminating them that's right and that's where mindfulness is actually plays a really good part is is recognizing and being aware and self aware of what's going on inside of us

and that's why I love that mindfulness and therapy can help dismantle that kind of outdated model of masculinity and and and then what do you replace it with well I guess new concepts of masculinity so masculinity in itself isn't a bad thing but often what's betrayed is that it is a bad thing because we talk usually talk about it within the concepts of patriarchy or um toxic masculinity or family and domestic violence or even suicide as well and so when we talk about it

within those contexts it can be a negative tone it can be a negative reflection of what it means to be a boy and a man but there is something called healthy masculinity and this is what we work on in the clinics is is around looking back over how we learnt to be a boy and a man in fact I did that session yesterday with a client what did it mean to be a boy and a man growing up for him wherever he grew up and within the time period that he grew up as well and then reflecting on

what does it mean to be a dad now and what does it mean to be a boy for his sons

in the work that we've been doing as well so we look back in a in a way that is critically reflective and we look back at why we were the way we were and the the influences around us and then we look at the present how are we showing up today and then we look forward to the future as how do we wanna show up how do we want our boys particularly and our daughters to be in their when they're adults how do we make them or help them and support them to be good humans and it starts with us

it starts with us recognizing how we are and then growing from there you've talked a lot about about your work with men what is one misconception that you see that men have about seeking help a misconception is that they don't have the ability to seek help we all have the ability yeah it's just about knowing when's the right time and finding the right support as well like I'd been in and out of therapy for the better part of 10 years and been to different therapists

but I never really felt connected to a lot of the therapists so it felt like a chore rather than something that was self development and something that I could achieve success through yeah um so it's about yeah like and like so many therapists who don't share an element of themselves it feels like they're just reading from a book to help you yeah which is what what I like to do because I've lived through you know better half of the three decades of mental health struggle

is bringing in that lived experience so once we can do that we can foster a a a stronger connection with men because they can recognize that they're not the only person in the room who's had struggle and they can see me doing the work and I always say I'm a therapist in therapy and that the work that we do in our sessions is the work that I do on myself so it works I know it works but I also recognize that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for them so it's all about showing them the way

showing men the way and going this is a pathway I've taken it might be similar to yours it might be different but we'll work together as a team men like to work as a team and we'll come up with solutions together we'll figure out what works for you and so this misconception that men can't do it is really wrong because actually once they come in you can't shut them up they just wanna talk talk and talk and talk yeah but so that feel on and that rock around your home

I yeah I I I can add you know the metaphor that comes to mind for that for me is it's like finding a wreck an exercise that resonates with you and it's like you you really wanna be doing go to the gym and be doing weights but then you end up in a yoga class and you're you're frustrated and well that's exercise right and then and then you go to a Pilates class and it's a different thing and then you join a running group and it's just not a it's not the fit it's not what you're looking for

and then you finally get to the gym and you have a trainer who works out himself and he pushes rates too and you're like yes this is what I've been looking for and there's nothing wrong with those other modalities there's nothing wrong with yoga and Pilates and running but it's not right for me 100% that reminded me of high school right like so I was very athletic did a lot of sports there was one sport that I absolutely hated and that was netball and so we used

I used to go to the courts and shoot hoops and play basketball and I liked it because it was running around right but netball when you get the ball you've got to stop and I felt really restricted there

yeah like I felt like I had to move like I it was it was unnatural for me not to move cause I it wasn't just basketball I played Australian rules footy I played soccer I did athletics I was always on the move right and it's the same like it was just the rings anytime we were touching the ball you're the target you need to you need to get going that's right and so I had to move and so it's about finding the right support for you so sometimes that's therapy

but sometimes a lot of the case is actually self care it's about what exercise are you doing or what food are you eating or how are you sleeping or you know we talk about the addiction stuff so drinking drugs gambling porn addiction all those types of things how do we find balance in everything so that everything is working together as opposed to apart it's a feedback mechanism isn't it because as as your your kind of health declines you seek out more of those self medicating activities

which cause your health decline even more which causes you to seek them out even more and and you just keep spiraling down don't you well that's a dopamine hit right so we do things that like drinking for me felt good initially

and it was for fun yeah um but over time I was getting those dopamine hits but then the more and more I drank the more and more I needed to get that same hit right and so it's the same with all sorts of addictions is is the more we do it the the more we need to do it in order to find that same level of satisfaction but we can get through those things through something like therapy or even talking about it or even just re evaluating our values and our goals in life

we can actually do it without a therapist um it's just about mindset how do we get into the right mindset and do things for the right reasons and do things in a sustainable way as well not throwing everything at it all at once

yeah so let's connect this to the mission of raising powerful capable men what does being a mindful parent mean to you well it's I think a lot of patience absolutely so I've got an eight year old I've got a five year old so being very and I also coach under eight soccer so you can imagine ten eight year olds running around trying to trying to herd cats on a tin roof basically um it's about being patient it's about being present as well so focusing on our kids rather than on our work

or what we have to do tomorrow or whatever else is going on and I think for the modern day father particularly is about being emotionally aware and it's emotionally aware of ourselves how are we going how are we showing up but also supporting our kids to be emotionally aware and understand that it's okay to be not okay and it's actually a safe thing for them to come to us

and talk about their emotions because what often happens in therapy is the guys that come in particularly the dads they want to be anything but a version of their dad yeah so it's about supporting parents both mums and dads but particularly dads to to have that emotional awareness to have that awareness of where they've come from where they are where they wanna be and being as present and patient as possible I imagine that even if you yourself had an amazing dad

there's still some amount of that departure that is necessary because the world is so different than it was when we were children and so in order to give our our sons the skills that they're gonna need to be powerful in the world that they're gonna grow up in it can't be the same old playbook can it well it can't be cause you just look at the world the way the world's going yeah I had this um when we when our kids went to started school um the principal sat down with all the new parents

and was talking about career pathways for example and I remember my dad he had two career pathways he was a bricklayer initially and then he went to the council and mum was a cleaner

and then she became an enrolled nurse over time and I've looked at my career and I've had probably about 10 different jobs yeah and I'm only you know 42 yeah but the principal sat down and he said your children will have up to 20+ careers in their lifetime and that's not necessarily a bad thing it's just a a a reflection of the time technology is advancing we're doing things differently there's gonna be new industries that grow there's gonna be old industries that die out

through technology and so it's about our ability to adapt and be adaptable and be accepting of of adaptation as well not holding on to those old playbooks now what often happens is we revert back to how our parents parented us often so my dad was a yeller for example and so sometimes when I'm disre regulated I might yell at my kids but I consciously am aware that that's not the dad that I wanna be so I've gone back to the old playbook because it's ingrained in me

but then I've also turned the page to the new playbook and going OK this is what I've got to work on next time and so now we're talking about being an imperfect parent and being OK with that because we can't get it right all the time as long as we're getting it right most of the time then we're doing alright yeah and it actually gives you an opportunity to apologize to your son and say listen man that's not the way I need to be acting I'm really sorry and that's

that's modeling the right behavior well how many of our our parents did that right it it it wasn't part of the equation back then it wasn't so being able to rebuild bridges or mend bridges is a really important part and that's that's emotional awareness that's being present it's recognizing that we're we're not perfect and it's mending the relationship because the last thing I want as a dad is my my son and my daughter to grow up resenting me because I wasn't there and I wasn't emotionally aware

and that's a constant fear that I have you know knowing where I've come from knowing the work that I do and hearing the stories that I hear every single day but it's not something that's gonna hold me back

it's gonna be something that fuels me to be the best dad that I can be and the best partner I can be to my wife too yeah yeah again that's going back to that feedback thing that's a virtuous feedback that's a virtuous feedback loop you do those things you get rewarded for it your life is easier it it feels like you're closer more connected you're more of a man that that you wanna be and so that causes you to engage with more healthy activities and think about things more in a more helpful way

yeah absolutely and I think when we talk about things like anxiety and depression for example we're often stuck in a negative feedback loop whether it's thinking too much about the future so that's that hyper arousal state that's that anxiety state or thinking too much about the past that's that hypo arousal state and that can get stuck and when that's when we start feeling like we're failing as parents or as or as men as well so it's about recognizing those emotions when they come up

and recognizing how do we get through that so that we can be more present with ourselves but also our families as well and and it's doing the things like self care that we talked about but it's also doing the things that make us feel good we're we're too I think focused on the you know the hustle these days in the 24 7 world that we live in and there's not enough downtime

where we can relax and rest recuperate um and be really present in the moment now the feedback loop as well it reinforces different behaviours so if we're doing negative things it's gonna reinforce that as as a coping mechanism so we're gonna be stuck in that negative way but if we can flip the script and think a bit more positively and that's really hard I recognize that it can be hard in the modern world um we can turn things around and we can come out of things and grow and be better dads as

as we do it as well you know there's I I I what you're saying really resonates with me because I I feel like I have to be doing something or else I'm dropping the ball I'm I'm not being the the parent I need to be I'm not being the the worker I need to be I'm not I'm not succeeding and if I'm ever sitting idle it doesn't feel right and that's unhealthy isn't it that's that's what you're describing as part of the thing I need to be able to unplug I need to be able to be present with my kids

I need to be able to to to disconnect and just ride in the right groove don't I yeah absolutely I was talking to her dad yesterday in in the clinic and we were talking about his REM his memories of his father and it was to provide and so

when we link that in with men in general and the patriarchy in patriarchal society it's men are providers yes and so if we're sitting idle and not providing not providing whether it's financially whether it's security whether it's whatever we feel like we're not living up to this notion of what it means to be a a man and a and a leader as well but the rest component is really important because back when our parents were were parents well you know they're still parents I guess but back a few

few generations ago yeah yeah they weren't they were 9 to 5 man they weren't they weren't 24 7 like we are today and they came home and work with it they came home after work and we came home when the lights came on on on the street lamps and so forth and we were together and on the weekends we didn't do a huge amount of things just to keep ourselves entertained we we we learnt how to entertain entertain ourselves if we're bored you know and and so it's a

it's a very different world that we live in so I think a lot of parents these days

are trying to learn to disconnect yeah and be more connected with their families through the disconnection of work particularly because of that hustle and and Covid was a bit of a a negative part of this because it during covid everyone thought they need to get side hustles and side hustles and this is where the podcast world exploded really that became a side hustle absolutely and so it's just about learning to disconnect but be connected at the same time it's it's a real struggle

um but we can provide in in that moment when we are disconnected we're providing emotional security we're providing great fatherhood and and and motherhood and we're providing fun yeah and and modeling these are these are the things yeah and these are the things that our kids want yeah I always I think since becoming a father what it has been really clear to me the myriad of tensions that we experience and that tension between wanting to be a provider and not wanting to work all the time

or not you knowing that working all the time isn't the way to be the best provider because providing money isn't the only thing you're supposed to be providing you're supposed to be providing safety you're supposed to be providing comfort you're supposed to be providing you know walled garden so to speak and there's a tension between those two things um I you know there there's a saying that goes nobody ever wished that they spent more time in the office

on their deathbed and I think that that's true

but it's also not true because there are people who go to their deathbed wishing that they had provided better for their families and and so again it it goes back to that tension you need to find the right mix in order to get the best balance of that and that is that's the difficulty and I feel like that's the thing that mindfulness can really help cultivate in ourselves absolutely I often talk about control in sessions with my clients it's when we feel like

maybe our mental health has got out of control and physical health as well because it's one and the same we try to control it by doing certain things so for me it was drinking for 25 years I tried to control my mental illness with drinking yeah and that wasn't necessarily healthy sure um and there was also a very big cultural element here as well it's very acceptable to drink in Australia we're big drinkers right yeah but I often say in order to regain control we have to let go of control

and so we can this is us recognizing that stuff in our life is happening things that we can control but also things that we can't control like maybe we do need to go and work a job or two jobs or three jobs or whatever we do but

there's certain things in our life that we can control and a lot of that in the parenting space is is being present being mindful being connected when we have even if it's five minutes a day if we're in and out of the door because we're providing for our family if we're providing that five minutes a day where our kids see us doing what we're doing with a purpose and with values and and we're not just you know ignoring them we're actually connecting in with them as much as we can

then they learn that they see that and that's help what helps them to grow as well but one of the other things that we learn in and and I teach in in my sessions is about living by our values so when we are looking back on our deathbed and we can look at our lives and reflect did I achieve what I want to achieve if we can live most of our life

according to a good set of values and we yeah that's what we can impart to our kids then we can as ultimately fall asleep knowing that we've done our best and yeah I think that's right and at least you did it on purpose right whatever you did you did it intentionally and with purpose and yeah you should feel good about that right as opposed to you don't want to look back and think man all that stuff happened by accident and even if it was good all that stuff happened by accident here

so so tell me this when and how do we start to cultivate mindfulness in our sons hmm from day 1 which is really hard so when we think about parenting it's often the dad goes to work mum stays home yeah so one option is to become a stay at home dad hmm and be really present right so this is that connection piece this is about connecting and and actually challenging social norms cause this is a social norm thing right the dad goes to work the mum stays home

so that's one element I tried it for a little bit but I really struggled with it so we had to reverse that role my wife reminded me that of that yesterday actually but it's it's about connection and it's about being there and being present now mindfulness is not something you'd go to your kids to and say let's be mindful because they probably like

what are you talking about exactly but it's through actions it's through how we display living by values it's about you know um being emotionally aware of ourselves and other people as well it's about teaching them about the world it's about not putting them in front of a TV or an iPad or a screen and letting them learn about the world that way it's about actually showing them the world it's about going camping it's about fishing it's about doing the things that make us feel good

but also slow down time at the same time because we only have infinite number of well we don't have an infinite we only have a certain number of Christmases with our families ultimately those Christmases will run out that is such a powerful powerful framing that these activities are ways of slowing down time in a really pleasurable way and we really do we have it's the one way we have of extending this resource that is so limited it's the one thing that we can't ever get back

but we can slow it down

that's such a powerful sentiment I love it how can we begin right now what can I do when I get off this this this call to help raise my son in a way with with strength and softness and and being mindful and and and give me give me one tactical thing that I could go do right now I think it's working on ourselves as dads we gotta start here within ourselves before we can even help somebody else it's like the plane that's falling out of the sky you gotta put your own oxygen mask on first

before you help anyone else because otherwise you both gonna perish and so I think it's reflecting on how we're going today how we really going like are we showing up in a way that we wanna show up are we being the best dad that we can be and if not that's OK we can turn things around and so what I do is I I liken it to the car tune up a lot of guys like cars or can kind of identify with a car so you take your car to the mechanic once a year it gets service and then it's back on the road

so our bodies are like the car body and our minds are like the electronics that make everything work

so if we can tune that up yearly whether it's through a just even connecting with a GP or a therapist you know for a few sessions a year just to make sure that you're you're able to stay on the road and that goes a long way to your better health but then also you being able to be more present and mindful with your kids as well because if you're doing the work on you then you can see it in others and you can help others along their journeys too are there are there pitfalls or

or drawbacks that we should watch out for when trying to do this well I think it's you can it's bringing up old traumas maybe yeah maybe old pains and having to work through them but that's okay that's part of the process it's it's not about ignoring the past is about acknowledging it and and identifying what you can learn from the past and this is where therapist go well you know tell me about your childhood there's a reason for that because they're looking at what happened how were you formed

where where did your beliefs come from and then how do we retune them so that they serve you in 2025 and beyond yeah and I can imagine that that is especially if you haven't grown up with the skills to deal with those kinds of strong emotions it's all the more difficult to to process all of that isn't it well that's right how can you get somewhere if you don't have a map yeah

and this is it so this is therapy or a GP session or even just talking with a friend or family member that you trust and respect yeah these are the people that can give you the map to get where you are and maybe give yourself a little bit of Grace about you know this everybody everybody has this and it's good it's okay I'd say a lot of Grace and what one of the concepts that I've Learned through mindfulness is wabi sabi so it's the beauty in imperfection OK yeah

I love I'm not gonna get it perfect every day and my clients aren't gonna get it perfect every day but as long as they're learning and moving forward one step at a time eventually they'll get to where they need to go so how do people learn more about mindful men and and get involved and what can what what can we do to to help bolster your program well I think it's about we've got the podcast as you mentioned earlier got the mindful men podcast

um I did that for about two and a half years before I mindfully had to disconnect from that for a little while so I'm on a bit of a hiatus but there's lots of different conversations in there around men masculinity fatherhood mental health as well

so check that out check out your podcast go through some of the old episodes as well keep in tune with those um if you're in Australia we do therapy in Australia so I'm an Australian therapist um so you can connect in that with us that way through our website um check out our socials I'm very active on socials and just putting out content trying to inspire men to just recognise certain things in their lives so for example um October in Australia is is Mental Health Awareness Month in Australia

so I'm doing a lot of mental health awareness content on there so get involved in that

have a chat in that and also you can join our Mindful Men Community Facebook group which is for free I do a weekly uh mindfulness tip on a Tuesday and then I do a Thursday check in video so you can jump onto that um learn a bit more about mindfulness and become part of a bigger community I love that alright I love to finish up these conversations by putting you on the spot and asking for one principle I'd like just think of one principle that comes to mind that

I should adopt in my life to make myself more mindful or stronger or better or or or anything at all give me one principle might be something that that you try to live yourself or or something you aspire to or anything like that what is one principle that you think that people should really look into and maybe adopt I think for men particularly it's it's identifying what your core values are and living by them once you know this and there's you you only want five or six not too many

I've got a few guys that like 10+ but sure five or six core values that you can live by everyday cause this helps with things like motivation when you're feeling unmotivated it helps with reflection if something bad's happened and you and you wanna reflect why that happened it helps with us identifying why we feel certain emotions as well but it's also helps us to be the best parents and and partners we can be and instill values on our children now everybody's values are different

and it's also about recognizing that as well so what we I value is gonna be different to what you value and the same with our kids so really look into what are your values and how can you live by them everyday

I think that is a fantastic principle I appreciate thank you for sharing that Simon once again thank you so much for joining us on Raising Men I'll tell you it has been an absolute pleasure to get to know you I know that I have personally gotten tremendous value from this conversation I hope our listeners have as well I really appreciate it thanks Sean thanks for having me thanks again Simon is the founder and clinical lead at Mindful Men he joins us from the Sunshine Coast

just north of Brisbane in Australia thanks again Simon