It's time to rage against the menopause with Petrina Jones. My next guest is someone I've long admired and grew up reading in Dolly magazine, and Cleo ignited my passion for journalism. In fact, Kaz Cook is an ossie author, cartoonist and broadcaster. Chances are, if you're a parent like me in a gazillion others, you had a copy of Up the Duff on your bedside table. The Practical Guide to Pregnancy and Childbirth was a staple for any baby
shower hamper. While she has learnt her talents to menopause, pinning It's the Menopause, a reassuring, practical go to from a trusted source after talking to literally thousands of women. I love that for women by women. It's full of her laugh out loud signature style and felt like a gift from the gods when it landed on my desk one morning after the show Welcome and thank You. I've got to say this book, it's almost like a gift
from the heavens. I'm not kidding because I came off the show, off the Christian o'connells show one morning a few weeks back, and you your book. Your publicist had sent me this amazing new book, it's The Menopause, and it was sitting on my desk and it was almost like a gift from the gods, like they were listening.
Oh that's gorgeous, thank you so much. Well, I wish i'd had it when I was going through menopause. I'm just through. And yeah, it's just with that my background as a journalist, I thought, you know, this is going to be a big job. But I didn't realize it was going to take me three and a half years of my life. A million, not a million, but you know, nine milling, nine thousand women filling in the survey and selling me all their secrets and wishes and worries, and
then all the medical electors. So it's been huge and it's for me too. It's lovely to see it all in one package now and ready to go.
Oh no, congratulations, it's you know, your books are like bibles. I hope you realize that up the Duff was so pivotal to my pregnancy experience twelve thirteen years ago.
And it's just so yes, I mean, it is amazing. It's a multi generational thing with my books now, because I keep updating them, and it's so nice to have mothers and daughters both reading different different books at different stages of their lives.
Well, you know, when I grew up, when I was a teenager in the eighties, I think it was doctor Llewellyn Jones.
Every woman, imagine having your body explained to you by, you know, a man, and that's how it was for so many people. I mean, doctors didn't even know what hormones were until the nineteen thirty so they've got a lot of catching up to those.
Tell me about your book, Tell me about the chapters.
What I decided to do with the book is to get you know, those comments and quotes from nine thousand women. So part of the book is like a conversation between women on all of those things, plus the experts. But I've divided into chapters, so you know, we start the first chapters called what even is the menopause? And then it's a chapter called It's Your Hormones because I think we're all really confused about progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, How much
do we need? What's happening? Are our levels of hormones falling off a cliff in our forties, or as I explain it, it's kind of more like the ABC logos. So it's take up and down, around and going backwards. And then I talk about because I think a lot of people, we're all old enough and grown up enough to bring our own philosophy to what's happening to our health, but it doesn't always work when we hit menopause. You know, medication, we may not want to take it, or maybe we can't.
Maybe the self help stuff isn't working for us. So I talk about how solutions to menopausal symptoms can be like a buffet. So you choose, and here's all the evidence based information that you need. Page thirty six of the book is more than the thirty symptoms that women haven't even known were connected with their hormones. And I
didn't when I started going through it. So it's insane mental changes, the brain fog, the lack of concentration, the confidence falling off a cliff, and you know, then there's all the body stuff. So it's not just hot flushes, it's crazy heavy periods, it's headaches for many people, it's itchy's skin. Who knew itchy skin with the menopause.
We'll talk about itchy skin. I've got the weirdest thing. I've got dermatitis in my ears, which is driving men.
Same, oh, that would drive you, and that is something that you know, dry skin everywhere, everything that so many women didn't know was connected. And then it's just your sex life as well. And sex life yeah, well it's often joked about, oh, women just lose interest. But what women told me in the survey was, for many women, it's so incredibly painful. Many women mentioned it and said
it's like razor blades. And there a pollutions for all of these things, but women are often shamed to talk about the fact that they're weeing unexpectedly or when they sneeze, and they didn't know that that was connected to perimenopause and what they can do about it. So and I think a lot of people also, I don't know about you. It's not like I was for a supermodel who had to rely on my looks for my career or anything.
But even I was sort of going, oh, my face is sliding off the front of my head, and why is my hair suddenly all whoopy? And I used to think that as you got older, women just stopped bothering you know, doing anything with their hair, and then I realized, no, actually your hair changes.
It does. Oh the hair's manky. What's with the hair. It's just no amount of good Oh, no amount of good shampoo, blow drying setting, nothing works. It just doesn't want to do what it's meant or you need it to do.
No, because it's it's changed. Things you can do. But one of the really important parts of the book for me was to let us all know that there are so many ripoffs out there. There are so many claims. I mean, people are selling menopause shampoo, menopause conditioner, menopause moisturizer. It's all nonsense.
Yeah, it's cract.
People are using us as a marketing opportunity, and we need to understand that they're absolutely coming for us. And you can't just Google because you get this kind of fire hose of people selling your stuff and it's not
necessarily the information that you need. So I've got a whole section on how to talk to your GP, what to ask your GP, which websites are trustworthy, because it can just be so confusing for people when they hit menopause, even if they know that's what is the cause of their problems.
Yeah, why do you think this is why? This is the whole reason I'm doing the podcast is because I want to formulate a really of support for other women who are going through it. But also my other main thing is I really want to open the conversation why why aren't we talking about it? Why aren't we when we go and have coffee with our girlfriends. If we're not, what is the mojo that's hanging over it? I think we should talk about it like we do conception and
pregnancy and childbirth. Why do you think that is?
I think there's a number of reasons, and one of them is a really huge one I reckon is shame. Women have been taught that their periods or anything to do with women's health is lucky or shameful or embarrassing, and we shouldn't talk about it, even with our doctors,
even with our girlfriends. I do think it's changing, but I think that's one of the reasons for this book too, as well as the same reason as your podcast, to share feelings, to share experiences, but also to understand that everyone's experience is different, so when you share them, when you see your stories, the more we can do that, the more. We understand that some people breathe through with hardly any problems. Other people have a really difficult time.
And I was really shocked to discover, when I tell you up what people had told me in the survey, that so many people withdraw from their friends during perimenopause. It's part of losing their confidence, it's part of feeling that you know, they're not good at things anymore. They tend to go into their shell often during perimenopause, and that's a problem at home with your friends and at work,
and then again that creates even more shame. One of the interesting things about hot flushes is women are so embarrassed to get a hot flush at work or if they've got a job where they're in front of people and perhaps is a teacher or a nurse and having to be, you know, the voice of authority. And if you don't know, then a hot flush can look to other people and feel to yourself like it's anxiety or a panic attack, or you're embarrassed, or you're fibbing, because
those are the things we associate with going red and sweating. Right, So we've got to change the knowledge base, get rid of the shame and I think the other thing is it is tied up with the way society treats older women. We think about all the words that are used, you know, old chook and crone and bunch of grandmas and you know where talking about women in their forties who are getting these symptoms, you know, and sort of being embarrassed.
I think to be associated with aging, embarrassed to go gray, and that's a choice. But I've decided not to go gray yet, and that's just an individual choice. But I think there's so much stigma with women's health, with periods and with getting old, and all of that is going to have to change as we support each other.
That yeah, And I'd like to think by the time my daughter is going through this in decades time, that the narrative had has changed. I think it is seen as a sign of weakness just aging in general. And really when your flowers sort of dying out and crumbling away in a lot of ways, I think you're really growing into yourself, especially when you turn around fifty, I reckon, don't you think?
Well? The last chapter of my book is all of the positive, optimistic, wonderful things that women are sharing with each other, and there is a sense of freedom that comes with letting go of the idea of what you should look like or what you should do. I think a lot of women are really looking at taking what can help them in medication, what can help them with wellness or self help that there's evidence for. They're getting
canny about, Okay, what are my priorities in life. They're saying to their teenage kids or older kids living at home with them, it's time that you did your own laundry, your own washing, saying that partners too. People are changing, They're not putting up with the way they've been treated in the past. And I think you know that there are lovely families and lovely partners who are trying to help women through perimenopause and menopause and feeling really confused.
And that's why you know books and podcasts that are independent and not trying to sell you something, that are really just trying to sell you the idea of you know, you decide who you are and what you want out of life in your in the last half of your life. I'm in that's a long way to go, right, Yes, The idea of writing ourselves off and our forties and fifties. Is you know is I think we're all questioning that now.
I love that, Kas. What helped you? You say that you're sort of out the other end of it? Now? How long do you think you went through that perimenopausal stage and what sort of lengths did you go to? What helped you in your experience?
Well, I did not realize that what was happening to me was perimenopause. I was losing sleep, and that is a really huge symptom of perimenopause. It makes everything harder. I had the confidence crash, and all of that happened years before I had my first hot flush. And when I went to the doctor, I reckon. I was in there for about twelve minutes and came out with antidepressants. And I know now that that was not right for
me at that time. I think antidepressants can be great for many people and at different times, but for me, I think the doctor completely missed that I was entering into perimenopause. I think I had three or four years of really difficult mental problems and sleep problems, and then I reckon, I had about two years of hot flushes. But then I went on medication and that just completely controlled it. So some people that you know, they breathed
through that, you know, they don't even really notice. To other people, they get noticeable symptoms like crazy periods, hot slashes, you know, sneaky weing, and that might depending on whether they tackle that with medication, and you know what their own philosophy is. I mean, one woman in the survey pat said to me that she was in her eighties
and still getting hot slashes. Yeah, people have one more than a decade, more than twelve years, more than fifteen years, and have not been well served, you know, by their medical professionals. Some doctors are great, and there's that's why they're stopped in the book about you know, what to ask your doctor, how to find a good doctor. For me, that's what made the difference is doing all this research and finding out what I was going through and why.
I mean, I was so relieved when I found out that my crazy itchiness, you know, had a physical hormonal reason because I just really did a lot of women talk about thinking that they've hit early dementia. A lot of women are quitting their job. I mean, for me, I did have a period when I didn't know what was happening where I thought, oh, I can't be a writer anymore. I can't remember words. I'm confused about, you know,
keeping track of my research. And thankfully I then understood that it was temporary and there was medication I could take for it. They think so many women suffer in silence.
Were you on HRT.
I'm still on MHT, which is the new name for HRT. Used to be called hormone or replacement therapy, and now doctors want us to call it menopause or hormone therapy, right, And I'm still on it, and I'm on it partly to protect my bones and to lower my risk of heart design says, I'm in menopause, that is, you know, for the rest of my life.
So is that like a patch cat.
I used gel for the estrogen. I use an oral tablet for progesterone, because you've got to take progesterone if you still have a uterus and you're taking estrogen. Some of this is quite complex, but in a way, it's just simple, if you know. And that's what I've written it down all in one place.
I'm not taking anything and I'm not saying that to say Anihroo, that's not at all, But I'm not even taking vitamins or minerals, which is not a good thing. I should be taking something, but it's because I don't know what's out there.
A lot of vitamins are completely unnecessary if you have a reasonable diet. You only need to take supplements if you've got a deficiency. So that that involves going to a good GP, getting tested, seeing what your vitamin D levels are, and having a bone test if you've started perimenopause, having a bone density test. This is all in the book. These are all the things you can do to protect yourself.
If you don't have symptoms that are driving you nuts that MHT would help, then no point in taking MHT. It's not an automatic thing, it's not the devil, and it's not a cure all. So you've got to look at the symptom that you have, if any, and deal with what can help you with those. It's kind of common sense. It's a bit like I say, here's the buffet of things that you can choose from bus I do sweep a whole bunch of crockery off one end
of the buffet. Lebel and say, exhare this stuff because there's no evidence for it, and This is just people trying it.
It's like a platter, You've laid it out and it's I guess it's for each woman to try what works for them, because what works for you may not necessarily work for someone else.
Well, we know that MHT, which used to be called HRT, is a great frontline treatment for several of the symptoms, and it's really reliable and it will help. We know that exercise is really great. We know that trying to do something to do with stress really helps hot flushes and other things. So there is this mix of self help and medication if you can take it. There are
also alternative medications to take. If you have a history of breast cancer or endemetrial cancer and you've been advised not to take MHT, you can still probably take and in vagina cream which will help with the driver gina symptoms and will also help with those wiing symptoms. So it's just a matter of all this information that women haven't been given in the past, and we need that base lift. I mean, it's such a cliche, right patch,
but knowledge is power. If you can go to the GP knowing which symptoms you might have and you get a bad GP who says Oh, you just have to put up with it, or oh you're too young. You're too young in your forties to be having these symptoms. That's a GP that you either need to get educated fast or you need to go to another.
Dome, find another GP.
And a good GP is absolute gold in helping me through this. And women said in the survey they really love the gps who listen to them and help them. A lot of us go through it feeling alone. Yeah, and we were actually fifty percent of the population who will experience this.
That's what I mean. I'm so flabbagasted that there's not not enough talk because it affects so many women across the world.
I know, and there's still such a stigma, like two point five million Australians yes, are either in menopause or approaching the perimenopause, which just means all the symptoms around and leading up to menopause. And I'm hearing men saying, oh, no one's really interested in some men saying no one's really interested in this, or this is a bit embarrassing, or someone actually said to me live in an TV interview, Oh, but you wouldn't give it to someone as a present.
Why not? It's not why not to say, like every other woman in the world will go through menopause and here's a fun book with cartoons and evans faced information. I was so indignant. I was like, oh my god, this is what we're fighting against, you know this idea.
Yeah, we need to change the narrative and normalize it because it's a perfectly normal stage of life. Yea, was it three years? It took you to write the book.
About three and a half years to solidly research and write it. And I'm so in awe of all the fabulous experts, many of them women, that Australia has now doing research in psychiatric areas of what menopause does to mental health, all the studies that many professors who are experts in the area are trying to do now about different hormones and the effect that they have. But we are so behind the eight ball with research.
And like we say, women are so in such a desperate period of their lives as well, Like some days you feel really rancid and you're just desperate for some sort of relief from the hot flushes, from the exhaustion.
Yeah, and that's the difficulty too, because when hormones are erratic, which is exactly what happens in perimenopause. You can feel a certain thing one day and then it suddenly goes by half past three. You don't get it next Tuesday, but then it's back next Thursday, and then nothing happens for two months, and it's so bizarre, so confusing. Yeah, yeah, that's actually really characteristic.
You do actually feel like I don't know how you felt, but I actually feel it. Sometimes I think I actually am going a bit batty, like I'm going crazy.
Absolutely, so many women said they thought they were having early dementia, and you know, in the survey, so many things came up in the survey and the quotes that are in the book that I didn't expect, and you know, oh, I've just lost my train of Thought's brain frog again? What was I going to say?
No, it's gone no good, No, haven't got it?
Oh sorry, pat, No, I don't apologize.
It's it is complete. I get it all the time. I had doctor Sarah, and here I go, I can't think of a surname now from Jean Hale's foundation.
It's hilarious.
I was saying to her, how on air, you know, it's this whole imposter syndrome that you go through waves of. But I'll be talking to Christian and Jack and I'll be on a train of thought and then all of a sudden, it's like someone just rips the rug out from under me. And I feel like such a twat on air because I've got no idea, like I think, oh my god, Like if you're in an office environment, you can probably get away with it, but when you're on air, you must look like a.
It happens to me in interviews sometimes too. And that I was going to say that women do feel like they're going mad one of the things that women said, and I didn't expect this. Women use the phrase not myself, I don't feel myself. I don't know who I am. I've lost myself. And I think that is talking about those mental changes and understanding that there's a hormonal reason for them, even if you don't get treatment, can be so comforting understanding that other women are going through it.
Because that's the bit that I had no idea was a perimenopausal sympathy.
Yeah, I think we need to be honest, and I think we need to get real, and I think we need to remove the shame that seems to be around perimenopause and menopause, and it's not a negative thing. And you're right, we need to support one another, both men and women. You know, support your partner.
We don't have to pretend that we're all perant everything.
Human at the end of the day, and we're all going through it and we need to build this village and support one another.
Yeah, totally agree. I just think it's time that women got the information in their hands.
Yeah, and we just.
Stop pretending that we're superwomen who can go through all these stages of our lives and pretend that it's not affecting us. I don't think it does women any And I saw a commentator the other day. I was really shocked that it was a woman saying, Oh, we should stop all this talk about menopause women. It's going to make women get sacked and it's going to prove that women are no good in the work in the workplace, and I thought you completely got the wrong end of
the stick. You know, every workplace needs to be flexible enough to help people, whether they're going through a menopause or they're a bloke who's got medical issues. Or someone needs to pick up their kids from work. Every workplace needs to be kinder to its employees. We all need to support each other. I'm sounding like I'm mad hippie now, but this idea that's not at all that we're cruel to people if they need a little help. I just don't think that's the way the world should go anymore.
I think just because you're a woman, and just because you get periods and can birth a baby and will eventually go through pery and menopause, just because you get it because you're a woman, I don't feel that that should be discounted. It should be recognized just like every other medical condition in the workplace. It should be no different.
Yeah, and I also think it makes women have a better understanding of other people, a breadth of experience. Women are brave, Women have a higher pain threshold. They are going through all these things and yet they're holding down jobs and making sure that they're doing all the emotional labor at home, and they should be commended for it. You know, there's this I mean, I'm just not interested
in pretending that perfect is normal. Perfect is impossible. You know, women have got to stop thinking they need to be perfect at what they look like, what they do, how they conduct themselves in life. We've been amazing for decades in our family, in our work, and it's time that we gave ourselves a little pad on the back and
understood that we help each other through. Menopause is something that you experience and you go through and you get to the other side, and like the last chapter of my book says, you know, this is the rest of your life with more freedom, more confidence and this. Everybody talked in the survey about how important their women friends were and I just thought that was a lovely thing to celebrate as well.
Tell me, I have one question in closing, Will I feel normal again?
Yes, you will get yourself based, you'll be yourself again, and in fact it will be better. You will have more confidence, you will understand your body better if you make yourself aware of all this stuff. And honestly, there was just so much optimism that women shared and they all talked about freedom, a mental and physical freedom. Getting to the other side.
Oh, I love it. Sounds like nirvana to me.
As something to look forward to.
Award winning author kas Cook talking about her Latey's book, It's the Menopause through Penguin Books. I highly recommend it. Our Menopause Journey Next takes us to what will feel like you evesdropping on two best friends at your local cafe, because that's exactly what it is. I catch up with one of my dearest friends, journalist, radio and TV presenter and podcaster Sarah Patterson, or Beryl as I affectionately call her. We've known each other since we were teenagers, and well,
I promised to frank chat. And that's exactly what it is. As kindred spirits navigate this crazy thing we call menopause, I'm Petrina Jones,