21 - Journalism Under Taliban Rule feat. Habib Khan

Yes , today we're honored to welcome Abubhan Totafe , a seasoned journalist whose career has been dedicated to documenting the realities of Afghanistan .

A former correspondent for the Wall Street Journal , founder of Afghan Peace Watch Watch and recipient of multiple prestigious awards , abibjan has tirelessly worked to ensure that the world doesn't turn a blind eye to the plight of the people of Afghanistan . So this was a brief bio , abibjan . Welcome to the show .

To start , can you give us or share a bit about your journey in journalism , how it began and how your experiences reporting in Afghanistan have shaped your perspective today ?

And through that time I was mostly obviously like if you're a journalist in Afghanistan , you're automatically more focused on secreting politics and terrorism .

So those were the main topics I've been covering in Afghanistan and I've traveled extensively to all provinces of Afghanistan and I could say that I'm one of the very few journalists in Afghanistan who have embedded with the different warring parties in Afghanistan , starting from the Afghan security forces and then the US special military forces , including special forces ,

and then also the Taliban .

So I was one of the very few journalists who , in the early days , who had been banded with the Taliban and saw the insurgency from within and how do they work as an insurgent group and then in 2020 , after the Doha deal we started monitoring the reduction the so-called reduction in violence in Afghanistan through our non-profit organization that I founded at that

time called Afghan Peace Watch , and then , after the collapse , we registered that as a non-profit 501c3 in the United States . So now I work with my team and Afghanistan inside Afghanistan and also outside Afghanistan .

We work with a relatively small team , but we do maintain our network of journalists in Afghanistan that we report data from and we focus on human rights violations , monitoring human rights violations , armed groups , weapons dynamics and as well as terrorism and armed resistance and the Taliban .

So that's something that that's one of the main reasons why we wanted to have this discussion with you .

And , specifically , regarding journalism under the Taliban currently in Afghanistan , what do you think about that in regards to the importance of , I guess , independent journalism now that the Taliban are in power and , I guess , risks faced by journalists and media organizations , as well as things such as censorship , propaganda on reporting , things like that ?

So if you can touch on that area , that would be great .

So we can say that there's no free media whatsoever under the Taliban . Because they don't believe in the concept of the flow of free information . They do not . They see that in contradiction to their core beliefs , because they see that as un-Islamic .

They see that the flow of information should be controlled by their so-called Islamic system so it should not corrupt the society according to them . So for that there are a lot of religious reasons for it to censor the flow of information and to censor the media freedom in Afghanistan , and they've been doing so .

So right now , under the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan , most of the media organizations that were working there have already collapsed due to censorship , taliban's control and also lack of finances .

And those that are operating under the Taliban , they're heavily censored and we've seen the instances , for instance , I'll mention Ariana , kelo , shamshad , like these major TV that were established during the republic in Afghanistan and are still operating under the Taliban . Their news and their information and their broadcasting is totally controlled .

They do not have no freedom whatsoever in terms of publishing news and they are deliberately . The Taliban are forcing them and they have no choice . I don't blame them . They want to survive in Afghanistan , they want to operate and all these media owners have invested quite a lot of money in their updates .

So if they want to survive , they have to listen to what the Taliban says and they have to obey the censorship that the Taliban introduced . That's why , under the Taliban , it's even more important that independent journalists , independent media organizations , should be supported in Afghanistan .

And there is a sense of urgency too , because all the media lists are already being censored , so the flow of accurate information from Afghanistan faces a lot of hurdles .

For the reason , to fight that out and keep this flow of information going from Afghanistan , it's very necessary for independent journalists , independent media organizations , to operate that and to be supported .

So what are the methods of verification , let's say , and so on , or collecting of the information itself ?

So we didn't do it because that would jeopardize compromise our whole unique methodology that we had adopted after the collapse . Wait , why ? What did that ?

So they have their eyes on everybody and what we do . Our methodology is we use very secure communication tools . Communicating we don't use like the standard communication tools .

So we people all work in Afghanistan and we have more than 200 sources in all 34 provinces of Afghanistan and those sources include local journalists , activists , women's rights activists , former members of provincial council , former members of parliament , former members of local government . So those are the kind of people and also the Taliban themselves .

So local Taliban authorities do it . So we talk to those people and we give our information to them . We don't rely on information provided only by the Taliban . So whenever there is an incident , we go and we cross-check those information with local sources I mentioned before . So for the reason to not compromise our team in Afghanistan , we didn't go .

We did not register with the Taliban's ministry of economy , because that would have compromised the whole operation and would have made it extremely difficult for us to put data accurate data from Afghanistan .

They attacked TVs like Laksham Shad . They attacked the Tolo TV , a vehicle that killed several journalists , tvs like Lakshamsha . They attacked the Tulu TV vehicle that killed several journalists . And they have been behind the torture and killing and abduction of journalists before they returned to power . And when they returned to power .

We saw so many instances that Taliban have tortured journalists , including , for instance , the journalists that were working for Iqbal Tiroz , the Hazara journalist . They were tortured by the Taliban , their story was public , and there were other instances too .

So when it comes to censoring information and then censoring journalists , the Taliban are really brutal and they have proved that they are capable of killing journalists , they are capable of torturing and abducting journalists and they're doing it and they've not changed their policy .

So when they say , when they threaten journalists , those threats should be taken seriously , and they say when they treat journalists , that those threats should be taken seriously because they do have that track record and they have not changed their policy about threatening and torturing and killing journalists .

So the current regime working as a journalist under the current regime in Afghanistan is perhaps the most difficult job for journalists ever , especially for avant-journalists who already struggle with a lot of other problems .

How do you approach covering groups , like you know , the National Resistance Fund , for example , while you know , maintaining that journalistic let's say objectivity as well , right , yeah .

When things happen , For instance , when there was a lot of misinformation and disinformation when the Taliban killed some of the resistance members extrajudicial killing so we did reach out to our own sources , verifying those information on the ground from our local sources to verify if those extrajudicial killings were taking place for real .

They did confirm that those were not rumors and that it did happen on the ground . So when it comes to specific news involving resistance , so we do cross-chip all the information with local sources , with different sources .

So our journalists are obviously there , connected with local resistance groups and , as well as the local Taliban authority , with local resistance groups and as well as the local Taliban authority .

The thing is that after the withdrawal of the American forces and all this stuff , this whole narrative of the war has ended being repeated all over the media . So everybody thinks that , okay , there's no war in Afghanistan . Everybody likes the Taliban and the Americans withdrew from Afghanistan , so there is no war .

But in fact , the conflict has never ended in Afghanistan . The American involvement in Afghanistan ended , but that does not mean that the war has ended in Afghanistan . The war has continued and the volume of attacks have decreased . Obviously there are not as many attacks as there were when the Taliban was fighting against the republic , but the war has never stopped .

It has never ended . It has never , never gone through the reconciliation and peace process . So there are people fighting , but people do not know about internationally and globally .

But it also is the , I think , a lot , a lot of international media , a lot of like these pro-Taliban apologies and with so-called experts repeating this rhetoric that there is nobody fighting of the Taliban . The people are tired of fighting . And also one more thing is that if you look at the Taliban's resurgence up to 2001, .

It took them around five years to get to where the resistance movements are today . So the resistance movements have outpaced the Taliban's regroup in terms of attacks that are happening in Afghanistan right now , in Afghanistan right now . So I did a quick research about the attacks done by Afghanistan Freedom Front and Afghanistan National Resistance Front .

There were 14 attacks in one week . This was a couple weeks ago , I guess . So there were 14 attacks in different provinces in one week by both the resistance groups and that's quite a number for just one week , while a year ago or two years ago there were barely attacks , those many attacks even in a month .

So what I believe is that this momentum is going to go up , the number of attacks are going to go up , people are going to increasingly be upset and they will hold grudges and they will have no other options but to join one of these resistance groups that are fighting the Taliban .

Because if you look at the Taliban insurgency at the beginning , when they started grouping , there were people who started joining the Taliban insurgency for so many reasons , and one of the main reasons that people would go and join the Taliban were because they were upset with the government .

Either they were oppressed by local warlords , they've had some problems with some police commanders or some military commanders , so they had no other options . For instance , I'll give an example of Kunduz . In Kunduz , in 2009 , a local warlord , miralam . He massacred a pastoral residence of Kunduz Hatskirts . Around 30 people were killed .

Those people were not Taliban , but when was this ? This was in Kunduz in 2009 . So in 2009 , the commander who killed these people his name was Mirala . It's documented , it's well documented by a lot of organizations . So this guy with his militia , this commander , he goes to a Pashtun village and he kills all these people , including women and children .

And then what happens ? And he is this commander , he represents the authority of the government in that specific area , right ? So when these people are killed , these Pashtun villagers , they are killed and they cannot ask for justice , because who would they ask justice ? Who would they ask ?

This commander killed him because he's the representative of the camp , so they were left with no other option but to be on the Taliban and that's . That was the beginning of the Taliban's infiltration and Kunduz , that Kunduz became one of the first provinces that fell to Taliban in 2015 and also 2016 .

So now , looking at the comparing that situation with today's situation , the Taliban are pushing everybody so hard when it comes to women , media minorities , the non-pastoral ethnic groups , the non-Pashtun ethnic groups , the Hazaras , the Tajiks and also the non-Taliban Pashtuns , so they're all pushing all these people so far there that they will have no other option but

to join the resistance groups , and that's happening already .

We know Pakistan's role throughout the 20 years backing the Taliban . So they had a major power funneling them with fighters and weapons and logistics , whereas the resistance currently doesn't have a backer like that . It's whatever they have of their own stockpiles of weapons and whatever cash that they have .

So I think that , considering that they don't have any major power backing them and that they've kept this pace , I think that's an interesting situation .

Eventually , I do think there will be a backer and I think that then , like you said , we'll probably see a surge and in these attacks or just if taliban's funding is cut off , that itself will also , you know , change the dynamics it also balances out like the fact that the , the formal government , had the support of uh nero uh and as well as all these other

countries , and now the taliban has the support upon pak right .

But the Taliban also don't have that kind of support to the republic .

I do believe that the resistance is going to grow , even like in the coming year or two , and eventually I think they will find regional and also global supporters , but especially , I think , with the Trump's new administration , especially with the picks for the NSA , my polls for the other security ministries of the United States .

I think those people and we know that all those people were involved in Afghanistan and they know the dynamics and Afghanistan variable , they know what Pakistan is doing . Mark Waltz was a great supporter of the sanctioned Pakistan campaign too and he's also a major supporter of NATO and also the Afghanistan United Front .

He's a friend of Samir , he's a with the Inarab members and leaders . So I think this means that there will be a shift in the US policy toward Afghanistan , and that would not mean that the United States is going to send troops back to Afghanistan . Nobody's advocating for that . There's no appetite for that , even within the United States .

Nobody's going to send troops to Afghanistan again , but what's been happening is that there the Taliban do not agree to sit with the Afghans and endure upon an inclusive government that represents all Afghans . I think there would be a shift in these policies when it comes to resistance groups , so politically supporting them and probably like financially supporting them .

I , to be honest , like in this area , all the resistance to leaders , political support from the united states and from these countries , and as well as like high tech or weapon like , like pros and things like that . That doesn't necessarily for that you don't necessarily need a lot of territory , crossborders , crossborder support .

It's good to have crossborder support for that sort of operations , but it's not extremely necessary .

So they're using the drug money to buy weapons , because the money they collect through the ministry of finance could you , abib john , can you speak about that ?

But , like they , that whole thing of them not being into bachabozi and all that .

But as far as the poppy cultivation and opium is concerned , I think from what I've collected from the research that's , the reporting that's available it seems like to a degree , you , they did stop this , but it's all a PR stunt and solely for optics , because it's different drugs that they are dealing with now . Could , you provide some deeper insight .

So I've had friends who have traveled to felman , to farah , to to southern western forest , and they've confirmed this food , they the pop culture , does not happen at that scale that it used to . But why did the Taliban ban this ? So I have a different reason for it . I think the reason is not that the Taliban are against poppy cultivation .

I think one of the reasons that the Taliban banned poppy cultivation was that they have huge stocks that poppy themselves up in themselves . So when they banned the population , the prices skyrocketed . So the prices went up so crazy that the Taliban are now making even more and more money . And we know that the Taliban has , they're supplying demand .

The Taliban have already had this monopoly for the drug market . We did a recent study with the Small Arms Survey the study is not published yet .

It will be published probably in the next couple of weeks or so and we found out one of the findings of that study was that there are still open-air markets in Afghanistan that sell drugs and weapons and those weapons are drones . Those drug markets are operating level of certain level of regulations from the Taliban .

So these local Taliban countries , they're taking money , they're part from the local dealers and they're allowing these drug markets to sell weapons and sell drugs . It's not happening only in Nangarhar . So this one market I'll mention the name of that market is Totomela . That's an open-air market for drugs and also for weapons in Nangarhar Shares artistry .

And then there are markets like that in Sangin and Helwantur that people still sell drugs and weapons under Taliban control and they had not the weapons market to operate okay , yeah , that's interesting , I didn't .

They were accused of many extrajudicial killings dumping the bodies of these suspected alleged escapee fighters in dumpsters and water canals and things like that , like water cannons and things like that . They also did a very severe crackdown on the Salafist madrasas and the Salafist minorities in Nangarhar .

According to this one Salafist group , they killed more than 400 Salafist scholars in Nangarhar and Kudai . So that sort of forced the local Salafists to close down Salafist scholars in Nangarhar and Kunar . So that forced the local Salafists to close down Salafist madrassas and also move to Pakistan .

After the Taliban's return , islamic State also made a strategic relocation from Nangarhar to Kunar . So the Islamic State is now more . The Islamic State of Khorasan is now more active in Kunar than they are in Nangarhar , especially in the Tzalki district of Kunar province .

There are a few other districts that are there in the Pichdara , which is like one of the great is not good in what you put , but also the Mutsalke district in the Kunar province has become one of their main strongholds and they are continuously , constantly attacking the Taliban and using the same Taliban tactics against the Taliban .

So they are doing a lot of ID attacks , they are doing ambushes , they are also doing and they are also in control of certain areas in Kunar . They're doing ambushes , they're also doing and they're also in control of certain areas in Kunar . So , in the number of ISKIP fighters have also now is around 6,000 to 8,000 people altogether in Afghanistan .

And the interesting thing is that I see the Taliban's been trying it and there are some Taliban journalists who are part of that agenda that they are linking ISKIP to Naref . Yeah , but I've seen that they're pushing this very consciously , very deliberately .

The Taliban is doing this Because the Taliban know if they push this narrative that ISKIP is linked to Naref , they achieve two things . One thing they can openly just kill whoever they want and can label them ISKIP is linked to . They achieve two things . One thing they can openly just kill whoever they want and can label them ISKIP . This is what I mean .

Even like the international community , the United States and NATOs and Europeans , they wouldn't care much if they kill ISKIP , right , iskip members . So they do it for this reason . And second reason they do this for is to sort of delegitimize what the resistance group stands for , especially the NRA .

They've been doing this very systematically and saying that the members of the SQP they're Tajik and most of the SQP members come from like Anshir and Tachar and Badakhshan in these provinces , which is not true , because the members , most members , the Tajik members of ISKIPI , they're not even Tajik of Afghanistan , they're Tajik of Tajikistan , so they're not even Afghan

citizens .

And when it comes to like the regular members of ISKIP , most of those ISKIP members are from our exact agency , most of those ISKIP members are from the Beaumont agency , are from across the journey and on this side , those the Salafis , they do have some sympathizers and supporters within the Salafist community in Afghanistan's Kunar and Nangarhar , in parts of Nur-Istad

. And also , what the ISKP does to the Taliban is as the Taliban were doing to ISKP , to the Republic . I mean , during the Republic the Taliban had a whole shadow government right , so they had provincial governor , the Taliban themselves , provincial police chiefs and all these different commissions . And Nawaz Kifli is doing the same to the Taliban .

So they have their own shadow governors , they have their own shadow commissions , military commissions , security commissions , judiciary , everything . For most of the provinces of Afghanistan they have that list of all the shattered governments and most of those people they're not even touching .

So this whole narrative that the Taliban are pushing against linking NRA to USGP is to sort of have a free hand in dealing with the member opposition .

She said they killed the son of so-and-so , who we know . He's , again , an extended family member and the Taliban basically chased him down . For some I forgot what it was , something that they a petty crime or something he got into a scuffle with a Taliban member . They end up chasing him down and gunning him down .

They killed him and then they reported to the town that we killed a Daesh member . No , but you know that's it's the furthest thing from the truth , because he wasn't involved in any . He wasn't a military person , he wasn't a fighter of any type . He was just a regular , I think , shop owner or something like that . He worked in a shop .

So these things , if it happens against local ordinary people , we can you can bet that it's happening against people in Kabul and other areas and they're labeling them as Daesh .

But if they kill somebody , labeling them that they're just ISKIPI , nobody's going to care Because they're terrorists , right , people wouldn't care much and there wouldn't be a lot of backlash globally , regionally or nationally .

But if they do that , that labeling all these people who stand against them as um , as kps , so they have a free hand , and that's exactly the reason they're doing this and they don't even have like like logical backing for it . The only thing that I've seen through taliban that they want to prove this .

This point is that one video from I think it was in France a guy with the resistance flag saying that we should join ISKP , and that's the whole argument is based on that video and a few other things like that . That doesn't justify that ISKP is going to United .

So I've even had this conversation with one of the American witnesses and she was thinking that United is ISKIP is linked to in Iraq . So I even had this conversation with one of the American waiters and she was thinking that Iraq is ISKIP , and I had to talk to her like no , this is what the Taliban are , and it's not only the Taliban .

The thing is that some so-called independent journalists are also deliberately promoting this narrative that ISKIP and Iraq are the same people , which is extremely dangerous , and we know who those people are because they have been just advocating and whitewashing the Taliban from day one .

It's interesting I can never forget that even in 2021 , I mean August the experts were all saying this you know , with these terror groups , they work with one another one day and on another day they may be enemies , but for the most part you know they're one in the same .

So that's really true what you said before these terrorist groups , one day they're fighting each other , second day they're not fighting , they're lies . Also , it's very complex in the internal dynamics .

For instance , if you look at what the TTP is doing to Pakistan and then Pakistan is also supporting ISKIP and then the TTP is also supported by Taliban and then TTP is also fighting in Pakistan . So it's a very complex situation .

But at the end of the day these terrorist organizations , regardless of their ideologies , regardless of their political associations and political beliefs , they end up they do have a lot of commonalities and they have a lot of common ground and they do collaborate with each other on so many areas .

I mean that link is there with the taliban as well , because we know that the ttp pledged allegiance to the taliban when they took over , right . So it's like you can't separate them .

There's always going to be some degree , but when , when it it's convenient for them to work with each other , right , when it's or a faction among or a faction right , yeah , because when the when the day comes , though like if , let's say , the resistance really starts making a push and they're now becoming a major threat to the taliban's you know , clutch on power

I can see these other groups now be like okay , well , remember , we already pledged allegiance to you guys and we supported you when you took over , and now it's time for us to team up , because , at the end of the day , the ideology is all the same .

So when they did this execution , this man in Bakhtiyah a few days ago , there were some Taliban accounts that were pushing this execution saying look at ISKIP . They tell us we don't enforce Sharia law . See , we enforce Sharia law . So there is this competition between ISKIP and the Taliban . Tell us we don't enforce Sharia law . See , we enforce Sharia law .

So there is this competition between ISKIPI and the Taliban and who's more brutal , who's more savvy ?

are the true Muslims and they are the true representatives of Islam all the way to work . And I also studied , through our research , we also studied the use of the terminology by ISTP against the Taliban .

So , whatever terms the Taliban were using against the Republic , the ISTP has adopted the same terminology using them against the Taliban , calling them apostates , calling them working , collaborating with the crusaders and with the infidels and doing the Doha Act and all these things .

And now Daesh SQP is telling the same thing to the Taliban that you guys are corrupt , now we are the true Muslims . I mean that's why are corrupt , now we are the true Muslims .

I mean that's why it's very important for resistance groups that are not terrorist organizations like SDP to distance themselves as much as they can from these religious fanatics , because in any sense these resistance groups become closer to these Islamist radical groups .

One of them , the first , back in August 2021 , during the fall of Kabul , a time , you know , when the flood of information and misinformation , specifically , was so overwhelming . I remember a specific moment that there was a claim circulating that the NRF was somehow responsible for an explosion .

I think it might've been the Abbey Gate thing , I don't know exactly , but you were doing your job , man . You amplified a report at that time and I was , you know , in my full Twitter warrior mode and I had said something about that . But , you know , I wanted to say I really respected how you know , you quickly acted .

That's when I first met you , when I first got to know about you , and how you acted when the facts were clarified , and then , you know , you ended up chatting in the dms about it a little bit . Looking back , it's just a bit of funny and it speaks to the intensity of that moment .

Then how hard it is for journalists like yourself , you know , to accurately report in real time chaos . Right , that's what's happening here . Honestly , I just want to thank you for the work that you do to amplify the realities of Afghanistan under these challenging circumstances .

Also one quick anecdote that we spoke about before recording , but I think you could both look back on and reflect a little differently . The whole Ban Taliban campaign . Right , you were the one who started it and it really took off as a way to push back against the Taliban's ability to use social media platforms for their propaganda .

Started it , um , and it really took off as a way to , you know , push back against the taliban's ability to use social media platforms for their propaganda .

And then , about a year later I think it was about a year later I kind of helped um revive the hashtag and a little bit , and and then we staged a protest outside of , uh , the twitter headquarters in san francisco , um , calling for their , the taliban accounts to be banned . At the time , you know , I felt like the moves to counter their narratives .

And , looking back , as I mentioned , we spoke about this , but especially with Elon Musk , you know , focused on free speech and just anti-censorship , I've found myself with mixed feelings , you know , on one hand , yes , we're resisting harmful propaganda , but also , it's very important and , you know , I've come to see the value of these open platforms for all voices ,

even the ones I guess we disagree with . What's your perspective on that campaign now ? Do you think it's possible to , you know , strike a balance between resisting harmful narratives and supporting free speech ?

But also , on the other aspect , imagine we didn't have Taliban on Twitter , so we have rethinking that whole Taliban campaign . I think it's , in a a sense , it's good that we do have Taliban on Twitter and we do have media so people can see them . What kind of creature is there ? What kind of logic ? Do they have any logic at all ?

Do they have any sort of justification for the actions that they are doing and for their really backward thinking and all the misogyny , the oppression that they're doing on the people ? How do they talk about it ? So I think it's good to hear from Taliban's perspective , to look at them , so people can judge for themselves .

If I wanted this to happen to me , obviously I would ban the Taliban right away . But it's not up to me , it's up to Elon Musk , and I think Anderson has a position on this .

Do you want women and girls to go to school , to go to universities ? I think we should find this common ground and we do have that common ground among all our ones and we should get together and unite against the Taliban . It's not just the job of a certain resistance group .

It's the job of every app , regardless of their profession , if they're a journalist , if they're an activist , if they're from all walks of life . It's the job of every Afghan woman and man to speak out , to stand against the tyranny and oppression of the Taliban and work for a free Afghanistan , a free , democratic Afghanistan where everybody has the same rights .

As always , we hope these conversations inspire you to stay informed , stay engaged and stay resistant Until next time .