17 - U.S. Policy Missteps in Afghanistan feat. Lara Logan

Her work has earned her numerous accolades , including multiple Emmy Awards and the prestigious Daniel Pearl Award . Lara's commitment to uncovering the truth has not only informed the world , but also highlighted the risks journalists face in conflict zones , especially after her harrowing experience in Egypt's Tahrir Square in 2011 .

Today , as we discuss the complexities of Afghanistan post-US withdrawal , lara's expertise promises to offer invaluable insights . Lara , welcome to the show . It's an honor to have you here with us .

Post-withdrawal of the US , we saw the Biden administration's handling of Afghanistan , how it all went down the chaos at Kabul airport , what ensued in the months after that and then in the last two and a half years funding the Taliban , essentially with nearly $80 million per week , seeing Thomas West normalizing the Taliban , the refusal to engage the opposition , all of

these things . I guess we could take each point one by one , but what are your thoughts on these things ?

I mean , let's face it , it's more of a surrender than a withdrawal , and for me , I'm still waiting for history to right the wrong of that betrayal , because I know I'm not alone . Right , there are many people in uniform .

There are many people all across this country who know that what the United States government did to the Afghan people and you have to forgive me here , this little one's going to cry until I put her down in my lap so what happened to Afghanistan was , first of all , it was not a forced situation .

There was nobody that had a gun to the administration's head saying , if you don't , get out of . Afghanistan right now , you're going to lose the next election . There was nobody that had a gun to the administration's head saying if you don't get out of Afghanistan right now , you're going to lose the next election . There was nothing like that .

There was no pressure that was coming from the public because , even though a lot of Americans questioned the war and felt like , I mean , we'd reached a point where why are we in these endless wars ?

In the first place , the United States has advanced military technology that was never used in that war , and that's a whole other conversation that we can have about .

Why were Afghan soldiers and why were American soldiers sent to die in the minefields of Helmand Province and so on , right At the hands of al-Qaeda and the Taliban , when the United States possesses advanced military technology like thermal stealth drones that can take care of a lot of these issues without a single boot on the ground .

So and I spoke to many different American soldiers and defense specialists and intelligence operatives and so on , who all agreed that the United States never employed more than 10% of its advanced military capability on the battlefield in Afghanistan . So you imagine I know how hard it's been for so many people in Afghanistan , and especially for the resistance .

But you imagine , as an American , mothers and fathers , why was your son and I went with soldiers and Marines ? Right , I went with them when they did this . So I saw it with my own eyes . I did it . Why did we walk through minefields when you were ? You could have done a lot to end that war many years ago . So that's one part of it .

But having said all of that , nobody you've got to end this war . This administration decided to not only end it , but they ended it on their own terms . They try to pass it off as Donald Trump's fault and say it was all Donald Trump's doing , which is ridiculous because , first of all , on day one , biden began rescinding orders made by Donald Trump .

They didn't do anything else that Donald Trump wanted , but they had to do this one thing in Afghanistan . Give me a break . Nobody buys that . It's obviously nonsense . The second thing is , donald Trump had no intention of leaving Afghanistan really without any kind of assistance .

Without any kind of assistance , right , without leaving the people , our allies , united States' allies in Afghanistan with no life raft .

I mean , as you probably are very familiar , the United States built , for example , a special operations capability in Afghanistan with the commandos , who not only were shouldering the bulk of the combat responsibility right , I mean because they were doing just an unimaginable number of operations every single week , day after day after day . But what did they do ?

They designed this capability in the image of United States Special Operations Forces . Well , what does that mean ? You created high mobility , specialized soldiers whose job was to go into an area , take care of an objective and leave . So what do you need for that ? You need the capability to go in and out .

Right , you're not staying there for the long term , you're not dug in to an objective . You're going in and out , you're conducting targeted operations and you're leaving .

Well , when the United States , under Joe Biden and General Austin and all of these other cowards and traitors , when they decided to leave the Afghan Air Force with no capability to refit or to fix their aircraft , or to service their aircraft , or or to service their aircraft , or to refuel or anything else , the United States knew that the contractors that were paid

for by US taxpayers were keeping the Afghan Air Force in the air . Those planes and those helicopters were being flown by Afghan pilots . Those raids were being conducted by Afghan special operations . But what kept them in the air , the United States , and what did they ? In the air , the United States , and what did they do ?

They took that capability away , they ripped it away . And , if you remember , up north there was that terrible , terrible , terrible incident where you had a special operations team that was abandoned on the objective . Because of this , because the United States pulled the rug out from under them and the Taliban ?

At that time they were pushing the big lie , one of the many lies that the Taliban and Zulmay Khalilzad , the US special representative , were instrumental in creating , along with people like sadly , I hate to say it , but along with people like Dr Abdullah Abdullah , who has always been a personal friend quite honestly , I've known him for many , many years but along

with people like that , they created the big lie , which was that the Taliban was not the same as they used to be . We know that was a lie . I knew it at the time . I'm sure you did too .

And then , of course , that the Taliban intended to take a conciliatory tone and that they were not going to be vengeful , they were not going to hunt down their adversaries and murder them one by one and torture them and rape their children and so on , which is exactly what they've done . But what did they do ?

They surrounded these soldiers who were not dug in for a long fight , not because they were not good at what they did , but because that's not how they were designed . And when they said , come out and surrender , you will be safe , what did they do ? They gunned them down in cold blood .

And that was designed to send a chilling message to every other Afghan fighter and to police officer out there that we are coming for you , right ? And on top of that , what did they do ? They used money . So they went in with bags of cash . They brought in money from Pakistan .

They shipped in al-Qaeda fighters and foreign fighters Incredibly all of these well-known terrorists that were both on the United Nations terrorist list and the United States terrorist list , and many other countries that they searched for for more . You know , for 20 something years right , for over 20 years they knew that these people were coming back over the border .

They've known . I find it hard to believe that they haven't known where they are all along . In fact , I know they were . I know they did know , because Afghan intelligence informed them of exactly where to find them , but they did nothing and so they watched .

I've spoken to US US intelligence operatives who documented in the months leading up to this how this movement of Al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists , how they were gathering in Pakistan , how they were moving across the border , how they were staging in Afghanistan .

I mean , when you do , when you carry out a targeted military operation the way the Taliban did , you cannot do that in secret . When you're going up against the United States and the NSA , which is the crown jewel of intelligence collection in the world , who's monitoring every single thing on the battlefield .

Plus , you've got people on the ground , for goodness sake . And then you've got Afghan intelligence that had people inside the Pakistani Taliban and other organizations right . So the United States lied when they said that they didn't know that this was going to happen . We know that they were lying . Not only that , it's much worse .

Zulma Khalilzad was instrumental in orchestrating it , and he wasn't the only one .

He was backed by everybody in that administration by Nicholas Burns , the head of the CIA , by the Secretary of State , anthony Blinken , by his puppets that he has in his agency , by other people in the Department of Defense that went along with it , people , sad to say , in uniform , that did that as well . I mean the awful commander of Delta Force .

I mean just horrific that these people could betray their oath , betray their allies and betray their nation the way they did . So you have all of these things . The stage is set for the greatest betrayal in the history of the United States . Not since 1776 .

Since the founding of this country , has there been something worse than what the United States did to their Afghan allies , because these are people that not only did you fight with them side by side in the trenches , but you trained them , then you trained the trainers and then you worked alongside the trainers .

I mean , these are , I mean , I think , sadly the worst mistake that the resistance made in Afghanistan . The members of the resistance before the resistance came back , but those who were present in the government and in the army and in the police force all across Afghanistan .

The worst mistake that they made was believing in the United States , was not recognizing that this country is no longer run by people who love this country , by failing to recognize that the administration of Joe Biden does not seek the survival of the United States . These ideals that you are struggling with right now . Is the resistance right ?

Because how do you recruit people to a failed ideal . It's very , very difficult .

And when you have the United States , which is the standard bearer of freedom and liberty and equality and these inalienable rights that come from God , right , when you are the standard bearer of this but you don't fight for it , you take that flame and you toss it into the trash , you drag it through the mud and you and you , you dishonor it and you dishonor

your God and you and you don't keep your word . When you do that , why should people believe you again ?

And you know , in my um , as you both know , I've spent many , many years in Afghanistan , and in the years that I was there , in the relationships that I formed in the time that I had traveling all over your country , I've been to many , many provinces , from the south to the center , to the east , to the west , to the north .

Okay , what I learned about Afghan people is number one you're very unusual . You're not like other nations on earth . It's kind of . It takes a little time to get adjusted . Afghans don't have the same social cues and the same barriers , and so in the beginning I found that a little difficult to deal with .

In time of the Taliban there I am at Bagram Airfield or , you know , in the villages , in the middle of the war , the Taliban controls more than 90% of the country and I got like 200 Afghan soldiers and men around me because at that time women didn't go out in public and they're just staring at me , they're watching me work and they're talking about me and I'm

thinking like get out of my face , man , what are you guys doing ? But over time I learned to understand how Afghans think and to learn about the culture and to appreciate some really extraordinary things about who you are as a nation . Loyalty in Afghanistan is something else , boy .

That is something that is truly for life and when you might get frustrated because you're trying to deal with somebody and they keep shifting the goalposts , learning and understanding how Afghans have had to fight for their survival and how all those wars and all the conquerors and the great riches that you have in your country have factored into the exploitation of

Afghanistan .

Being on the Silk Road , being there with Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan , I mean look at Afghanistan at the crossroads of history time and time and time again , and so it is completely acceptable for an Afghan to say whatever he needs to say to survive and that is not in conflict with honesty and integrity , the way it would be in the United States .

Because you know what the United States ? We have rights . We don't have to do that to survive , and so that's not an acceptable form of behavior . So I learned over time to understand and appreciate , and I developed a great love of Afghan people and Afghan culture .

It doesn't mean that I agree with everything , it doesn't mean I appreciate everything , but at the same time I have a great respect for who you are as a nation , and I have watched your nation transform and what was done to the people of Afghanistan years ago , when the United States was starting to talk about withdrawal under Obama and Hillary Clinton was still

Secretary of State .

I was asked time and time again by think tanks in Washington DC and others powerful people , time again by think tanks in Washington DC and others powerful people what would you say to the women of Afghanistan to reassure them that when the United States withdraws , they're not going to lose all their rights and go back to the time of the Taliban ?

And my answer was simple why would I lie to them ? I would never do that . They deserve better . So why are you lying to them ?

Because we all know if you pull out and you abandon the Afghan people and you take everything from them in one go , the way this administration did , of course the Taliban is coming back and they are going to take everything from those women . Because I spent time with Afghan , with Taliban commanders .

I spent time with , for example , you know , a very senior commander was the main . He was the top recruiter for child suicide bombers . I was in the trenches with ordinary Taliban soldiers . I spent time in the trenches with Afghan soldiers . I lived with Afghan soldiers during the war their first war with the Taliban at Bagram Air Base .

I spent time with the police . I spent time in the villages . I spent time in the cities . I spent time in the parliament and in the palace . I had Afghan friends . I spent time with Afghan ministers . I talked to everybody . I talked to Afghan women . I listened and I understood that it is impossible for the Taliban to change who they are . It is impossible .

It is one of the greatest lies ever pushed by the United States . It is unforgivable in my heart and in my mind , absolutely unforgivable . And the fact that decent people in Afghanistan are still paying the price for that lie is also unforgivable . I will not rest until there's accountability .

And we're fighting on many different fronts in America today , and I don't know why Afghanistan was sacrificed . You know it was right there on the front line of a global struggle and I don't know why you had to be first in line . I don't know why you had to pay such a heavy price , but it pains my heart Every single day .

It pains my heart because I know the depth of suffering and I know the depth of betrayal , and I know there are American soldiers and civilians all over this country who understand this as well , and they have not forgotten . They truly have not forgotten .

And so what I would say to you about the withdrawal , that when you hear people say , well , this was Trump's policy and this is what Trump would have done , that's a lie . Biden did not leave a residual force . Trump said he was going to leave a residual force . That force would have been a special operations force that was designed to counter terrorism .

Right , that was their mission counter terrorism . That would have made all the difference in the world , because these soldiers are force multipliers . Plus , he would have retained the maintenance and support capability of the Afghan Air Force . They would have continued with intelligence sharing , and so on and so on and so on .

And , most importantly , they would not have handed up their allies to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda on a silver platter . Because that's what they did . They took the people who murdered American civilians on 9-11 and they gave them their own state . And when they did that , they literally took Afghanistan as a , as a haven for terrorism .

They took it from being a lemonade stand right , to use an American analogy , where kids are setting up a stand at the side of the road selling lemonade . They took terrorism from that to a global level . This is like Walmart worldwide , and that's what nobody is talking about .

The Taliban is using the powers of a nation state to multiply the terrorist threat , and we will pay the price for that all over the world and right here in the United States right here in the United States .

But just following your point about , you know , the shift from Trump's Doha talks to what you termed as a surrender by the current administration , which I all agree with , leading to significant consequences , would even be an understatement to what you've mentioned , what we know , and I'm sure the administration may be in denial of , but a gender apartheid under the

Taliban today in Afghanistan , the betrayal of the National Defense and Security Forces , who were , as you mentioned , you know , trained . They were a creation of our government here , right , yeah , and that's something , honestly , that many of the people from Afghanistan , I would say , were most proud of .

If you were to ask someone , even myself , someone born and raised here , you know , what is it that you were most proud of during the 20 years , I would say that we had the best military in the entire region . Why ?

Because we were trained by our forces , were trained by the best , and this is why when we also say hey , you know , when we talk of resistance and if only you know more new that it's those same forces . You know the National . Resistance Movement of Afghanistan and so on . But I'm sorry , I went on a tangent . I wanted to ask you .

I was at memorial services for many of the soldiers who died and I saw firsthand how that training and how that experience in combat transformed those forces right . And I was impressed beyond words because my first night in Afghanistan I flew from Tajikistan in an old Russian make helicopter that had cracks in it .

It had crashed multiple times , it had holes okay , there were actual holes in this helicopter and it was flown by Afghan pilots who flew in the dark and they flew . They stopped in Hajj Baudin , which was just over the border from Tajikistan , and I asked there was nothing in that helicopter , right , nothing in the back .

It was gutted and there was just a chair , a wooden chair with a red carpet on , where Dr Abdullah was sitting . And every time , you know , we would sort of lurch , the chair would fall over and he would fall over and we were sitting on the floor and he would . You know , we put the chair back up and he would sit there .

But when we landed in Hajj Bawudina I said , dr Abdullah , please can you take us to the front line ? We need to be in the front , we can't be , you know , just a few miles across the Tajik border . And he spoke to the pilots and he exited and the pilots spoke no English , no English , but they flew in the dark with no lights .

So many years later , when I flew with the Afghan Air Force , I knew , I knew the capability that was within the Afghan people . I knew they could do it . But you're now dealing with pilots who are trying to learn how to fly , engineers who are trying to learn how to take apart , you know , aircraft with thousands and thousands of parts .

It's not just about learning how to fly , it's about learning how to keep those aircraft in the skies right and about maintaining them at that level so that you have 100% safety record , and so on and so on .

So when you you know , when you talk about being proud of the capability of the Afghan forces , I mean it was truly impressive to see how far those forces came , and not only that , but to see them bear the burden of combat , because there is no military , I would venture to say in history , and I'm pretty sure when I was at 60 Minutes .

We touched on this in a number of pieces and I don't think this has changed . But there was no military in history that had sustained the level of combat casualties , military in history that had sustained the level of combat casualties and stayed in the fight . Every military expert was saying it was unsustainable . Year after year after year .

And yet the Afghan people stood up and they did it . So to see these people , because I am still in a number of different chat rooms and in touch with a lot of different people and I get regular reports on Afghan soldiers , either regular or special operations , and Afghan police , police commanders and so on .

I get regular reports on people who are still being hunted down , tortured and murdered . I see their bodies . I force myself to look at the reality because I never want to forget . We have to right this injustice in history . It's not over .

I know every single day people are still being hunted down and murdered by the Taliban , and never mind what they did to the United States .

You know I touched on the betrayal , but I think what was inconceivable to many people in Afghanistan including your leadership , by the way but I think what was inconceivable to many people in Afghanistan , including your leadership , by the way , including great people like my friend , of course , amrullah Saleh right , who's been a friend of mine for a long time .

I met him many , many years ago when he was head of intelligence , and I remember he was 36 and a half years old at the time . You know , for people like that , he's one of the most impressive men I've ever met in my life .

They just couldn't get their head around the fact that not only would the United States toss them into the trash and drive over the bodies right and deliver them with their biometrics and everything else to the enemy , they couldn't believe that the United States would injure itself . They thought it's in the United States' interest to maintain this relationship .

And who in the United States would betray their own country ?

They failed to see that the people running America at the time do not support or believe in America , and what they have been doing consistently is working to weaken and reduce every single advantage that the United States has , whether it's the strength of the dollar which is being undermined by the BRICS nations and all those people decoupling from the dollar right

who are rejecting the dollar and going back to the gold standard and adopting BRICS . You never hear this administration say say we have a problem . They do nothing to defend the dollar from BRICS . And so look at what they're doing economically . They're working to collapse the American economy . They're not working to save the economy .

They're printing money like there's no tomorrow , because they don't intend to pay for it . Well , they've done the same thing to the United States military . They've allowed Iranian spies to operate within this administration . They've done nothing to stop them . In fact , what have they done ? They've handed over US taxpayer dollars and seized Iranian assets . To who ?

The IRGC , the Iranian revolutionary god , whose stated reason for being is to defeat the great Satan , which is what they call the United States . Look at what they're doing . In every single direction they're burning the United States to the ground and unfortunately this was very hard for people to see . So I interrupted you .

But I really have to say that when I see the spirit and the sacrifice of the resistance , I see these fighters in the mountains , I see how many people have been killed , how the Taliban went in there . Let's not forget the great betrayal right with the Pakistani ISI , because what did they do ?

I mean , I just could not believe when the head of the ISI landed in Kabul right after the US withdrawal and went into the mountains hunting down who Amrullah Saleh was vice president at the time , right who , unlike President Ghani , did not take bags of cash and jump on a helicopter and abandon his people . I spoke to Amrullah . You might find this interesting .

Okay , I spoke to Amrullah on the Friday . When did Kabul fall ? Do you remember ? It fell on the Saturday . And that night , what were they talking about ? The United States was still lying , Anthony Blinken was lying , lloyd Austin was lying , Biden was lying , all of them .

They were lying to their Afghan allies and they were saying no , the Taliban is not going to come into Kabul . Remember that ? They were outside of Kabul and they said oh , no , no , no , no , we've got an agreement they're not going to come .

Let's form an interim government , let the Taliban into the government Unthinkable , you're terrorist allies , but nevertheless , that's what they were doing . And I spoke to Amrullah and he said to me what do you think ? And I said , amrullah , I am talking to people who see the Taliban on the outskirts . They've got them in their sights .

I said I do not believe this administration . I believe , before darkness , the Taliban will be in the city . And he said I believe it too , and you know what he did . That's when he left and he went to the Panjshir . And I said I believe it too , and you know what he did . That's when he left and he went to the Panjshir .

And I know , I know there are political issues , I know some people support him , some people don't , and all of that , but I know personally that that man never , ever , ever wanted . He told me I will die in Panjshir with my people . That is all I want .

He did not want to be rescued , he did not want to leave , but ultimately people wanted him alive and it's a miracle actually that he survived . And what pains him every single day , what pains me is all of the people within the resistance , some of whom I knew personally , who did not survive . And the other thing that pains me is all of the leaders .

What happened to Ismail Khan ? What happened to Dostum ? What happened to the great Mujahideen ? Where did they go ? People who had millions and millions of dollars , who profited from those 20 years ? They took their money and they abandoned their people . So I despise the Taliban , but I am sad .

I am so sad for the resistance because great men and women , brave men and women are still paying with their lives . They're paying with their children . Remember when the Taliban went in and took all the boys and made them walk through the minefields , used them to detonate mines ? And what was happening ?

At the same time , the United Nations was sending its people into Kabul for photo ops with the Taliban . Shame on these people . I'm going to tell you something . I hope they burn in hell for eternity . I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on your program , but you know , just remembering all of it it makes me so angry .

And I know we have a saying Allah Kareem right . God is generous and God is good and God is great . And I , uh , and I know that in the in the Bible they say that God says vengeance is mine , said the Lord . So I try to leave that to God .

I have to believe that God will make this right , but I am so sad that the price paid by the Afghan people has been so high .

On that point regarding you know the question I wanted to ask you so , considering the United States' two decades their presence in Afghanistan , do you believe that the policies that led to the taliban's resurgence ultimately began with um so so sure . The trump talks , uh , doha talks .

You know the , the general narrative , or what we hear is like okay , doha talks began with uh trump , uh during um uh donald trump's presidency , right ?

What do you say to the world ? And what Amrullah said to me is we are a small third world nation .

We do not presume to tell a great power like the United States what it should or should not be doing , but I can tell you this I fought these people long before you came here and I will fight them long after you are gone , because these people and at the time Mullah Omar was still alive , but he said , mullah Omar , they are truly forces of darkness and they

cannot engender a vision for this world . And so , and he said to me , look out of the window , you see these mountains . These mountains were here before you came . They will be here after you've gone . These rivers , they will keep flowing after you have gone and we , as Afghans , will keep fighting . And look how true that is today .

Right , that's exactly what happened , but that was under the Obama administration . That was many , many years ago , and that interview is available online . Anybody can look it up . You can see it for yourself . Okay , so remember how stupid the Obama administration was . They were not getting cooperation from the Afghan government . Because why ? Well , two main things .

One was that the enemy was not defeated , and you could spin that any way you wanted to , but the Taliban , al Qaeda , they were not defeated , so the objective was not achieved . Number one , number two Pakistan . Okay , just to clarify ever .

Let them flee into Afghanistan , into Pakistan . That's what happened . Tora Bora when did bin Laden go ? Pakistan . We know this . Colin Powell went to go and meet with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan . Where did they go ? They didn't come to the meeting . They went to Pakistan . I traced the routes that the al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters took through the mountains .

I went to the markets where they used foreign currency . I traced their steps . I spoke to people who witnessed the exodus . Okay , which means if I could do it , you know the United States could do it , come on , give me a break . But what happened was the Taliban and al-Qaeda were never defeated .

They suffered a catastrophic , catastrophic failure in 2001 , with the initial campaign , us bombing campaign in the sky , afghans fighting on the ground , covert warriors supporting both efforts . But they were allowed to escape . They were allowed to live , to fight another day . Then what did the ISI do ? Amrullah Saleh actually identified this in 2005 , 2006 .

He wrote two critically important papers which changed the entire United States thinking about the war . But unfortunately , at the time , what had happened ? The United States had pivoted the bulk of its attention and resources to where ? To the war in Iraq . So what happens ?

Amrullah Saleh recognized that the ISI had gone village to village to village , collecting the what could you say the ruins of the Taliban and al-Qaeda and putting them back together , piecing them together with money and support and ideology , and so on and so on , and so on .

They reconstituted the Taliban forces that had been decimated by the Afghan soldiers and the US bombing campaign , and then they began their infiltration back into Afghanistan in 2005 , 2006 . Okay , so Obama is still in power . What is Obama trying to do ? Well , he decides hmm well , this problem with Pakistan .

Yeah , so we don't want Pakistan to be a problem anymore . We're changing our minds . Well , that didn't sit well with the Afghan government . Hamid Karzai was still in power and Amrullah Saleh was still in charge of the NDS . And what did Amrullah Saleh do ? He did what you would expect any good leader to do .

He said I will not lie , I will not go along with this . Pakistan is our enemy , not our ally . You want to find Osama bin Laden ? Yeah , we know where he is . He's in Pakistan . Oh wait , you want to know where the Taliban is ? Well , look at Quetta . Look at the Quetta Shura . Wait , look at Miriam Shah . Look at the Miriam Shah Shura .

Right , so Afghan intelligence was getting frustrated because they're giving the US I mean , everything but the coordinates for their enemies . And the US is saying we need you to make friends with Pakistan . That was never going to happen because , as many Afghans know , pakistan was harboring your enemy . And Pakistan wants to control the seat of power in Kabul .

Right , they want to take power , not just away from the Afghans , but look at the Durrani kings that always ruled Afghanistan . Who did the Pakistanis want to put in power ? Not the Durrani Pashtuns , right , but the Gilzai . Because who did they control the Gilzai , as you both probably know . So what happens ?

Well , amrullah Saleh gets removed from his position , right , and so he goes into the opposition . The United States , the CIA , decides well , we don't like him anymore , but they're still like trying to keep him in the fold . Because , why ? Because there's , you know , they understand and they know the truth .

They can lie all they like about Pakistan , but Amrullah is right . And so what then happens ? Okay , well , obama decides never mind the Afghan government , they won't comply with the US . So we're going to start our own talks with the Taliban . And what was the first thing they did ?

They were embarrassed Because the guy they were talking to look this up , you can Google it . I hate Google , but you can find it online . The guy they were talking to wasn't a real Taliban leader , was he ? He was a baker . Remember that embarrassment , that scandal . Maybe you guys are too young , but there was a big scandal under the Obama administration .

It was a big embarrassment for the United States because it turned out that when they tried to screw the Afghan government excuse my French , but they really threw the Afghan government to the dogs and they tried to go around them and strike up a deal with their enemy , which is so insulting and so arrogant and unforgivable . Right , what happened ?

They were negotiating with the wrong people because they were a joke . They were an absolute joke . So then they ran out of time because Donald Trump came into power .

Something happened with Donald Trump that I did not fully understand in the beginning , because when Donald Trump said , okay , we got to get out of Iraq , we got to get out of Syria , we got to get out of Afghanistan , I was very torn and very critical . I did not agree with him .

I knew that number one , the objective had not been achieved on Al Qaeda and the Taliban were stronger and gaining strength in spite of the lies of the Obama administration , and I reported that on 60 Minutes . You can look that up . And I also knew what the cost would be of the US pulling out .

But there was one small thing that bothered me , and it was when Donald Trump said we have no business being in a war with no end . And I started to talk to different soldiers and different people , military experts and intelligence people and so on and so on , and I began to realize .

That's when I started to learn that the United States wasn't trying to win this war , that it wasn't using its resources to win , that it had technology , advanced military technology , that it wasn't employing on the battlefield . And it is true that if you are not going to bring about a resolution to the war , you have no business being there .

You cannot be involved in these endless wars . It's not fair to you and it's not fair to the American people and it's profoundly dishonest . So what Donald Trump was saying was you can't just loiter on the objective . You've got it . You have the ability .

You're either going to win this or you're not going to win it , but you've got to bring an end to it somehow . Personally , my personal belief is that what the United States should have done is in 2001 , when the Taliban and Al Qaeda were decimated and they fled for their lives into Pakistan , you should have given Afghanistan back to the Afghans .

You should have said what do you need from us ? How can we help you ? And given them intelligence support and given them special operations support and given them support and you know , and so on . Right , but what you should have done is let them be in charge and you should have said these guys don't come back .

If they come back , we're going to take care of this problem . If they come back , we're going to take care of this problem . And we don't know what that's going to look like . You might not survive it , right , and so that would have given Afghan leaders some incentive to deal with the problem . But the United States never did that .

They loitered on the objective with no clear rules of engagement , shifting the goalposts all the time and and really sacrificing both Afghan soldiers and Afghan lives and American lives .

And so Donald Trump did have a good point that you couldn't be there forever , and , and the way that he , under General Scottie Miller , was negotiating at the time , the way they were going to relieve , you know , leave a residual force behind .

They wouldn't have done things like what the Biden administration did was to take , for example , when Amrullah Saleh said please leave the weapons in the Panjshir , don't take the weapons . They took them from the Panjshir , but they left them in Kandahar and they left them in Helmand and they left them in Zabul . Why ? Why did they do that ?

They took everything from their allies and they gave everything to their enemies . Trump was not going to do that now . Now I'm not , um , I'm not saying that everything about trump's policy was perfect or that he was 100 right . We never got to see that . It's unknowable because we never got to see that . But I did read what they were planning on doing .

I do know what the differences were . And then you have the Biden administration come in and they change everything . They literally go down on their knees , and that's not low enough .

So then they go down on their bellies and they crawl in the dirt , they slither like snakes and they let the Taliban and Al Qaeda dictate the terms and they lie , and they lie , and they lie . And it is the most shameful thing that I have ever witnessed a nation do in my entire life .

Because it wasn't enough for them to pull out and take everything from you . On top of that , they had to give your enemies all the help and support that they needed .

And that weekend , right after the withdrawal , when the Pakistani head of the ISI came to Afghanistan and brought Pakistani special forces and intelligence assets and they went hunting Amrullah Saleh in the mountains and hunting down the leaders of the resistance .

The United States , you know what it did and I have this from intelligence professionals who were working in active duty at the time , who witnessed this happening , who told me in real time the United States turned off its surveillance capabilities .

It went dark , hoping , hoping and giving the ISI , the Pakistani and America's enemies , the cover that they needed to kill people like Amrullah Saleh . But God had another plan and they didn't succeed , and shame on them .

So that's the next phase Now , hypothetically and I'm going to say it openly hopefully when Trump gets elected here , right , because I don't think it could get any worse than Biden .

To be honest , do you think that the policy , uss policy on Afghanistan will change , like the 40 million well , at this point , it's like close to $80 million per week that's being pumped into Afghanistan , to the central bank that's controlled by the Taliban . So this assisting the Taliban , do you think that'll come to an end ?

This normalization that you know , people like Karen Decker and Thomas West , this engagement and the whitewashing of the Taliban , will that kind of come to an end ? This complete ignoring of the resistance , will that get reversed ? Do you think that a Trump administration do things just change ?

Or will national interest or whatever , however we're going to call it , is it just going to get carried on ?

Let's say whether it's Trump or not .

And what you are really dealing with in the United States and all across the world is that there are elitist people of all races and all religions and so on , who are members of both parties . Now one of those parties is being used right now as the implementation arm of a global strategy . That's the Democrats .

The other party is being used in a deception operation to support that effort . And who's standing against that ? Well , it's the people . So , right now , if you're white and you're Christian , believe in you know , patriotic or something , so you are the front line . You are the Afghans . Right now , you're on the front line . You are the Afghans .

Right now , you're on the front line . You're first in the firing line and so you're the number one target . And these people who are Antifa or whatever on the left , they think it's all about that . They believe that they're fighting that , but they're just a pawn . They're being used .

And if you look throughout history at every Marxist takeover whether it's Mao or Lenin or Stalin . It doesn't matter what happens to those people when they're done with them and they no longer need them . They're lined up against a wall and they're shot , right .

So when you talk about a Trump victory versus a GOP victory , the GOP is still controlled by the elites right , the establishment , the rhinos , whatever you want to call them . These people are in control because they have the money , but what Trump represents is the people .

What you are looking at all over the world is the people rising up and saying we will not be denied our rights and our freedoms , our liberties . We will not have our land taken away from us , our food supply destroyed . We're not going to eat bugs , we're not going to be forced to take a medical treatment that we don't want , right ?

We're not going to live like the World Economic Forum and these other globalists want us to live . I call it the global cult because that's really what it is , and it has members who are Islamic . It has members who are Christian . It really doesn't matter . It's a mindset . It's people who don't worship God .

They believe they are on the verge of becoming gods , and so when you look at it like that , do I ? I'm always conscious , and this is something that God gives every one of us , and the sooner you recognize it , the easier your life will be . And it's called the unknowable . I am not God , so do I know exactly what's going to happen ?

I do not , and recognizing that some of this is unknowable is very important , right ? Because I'm just a journalist . I'm not a prophet , I'm not involved in Trump's campaign .

I have no connections , you know right , to any of the people that will be in his cabinet , except for you know one or two here and there that I think probably stand a good chance , like Carrie Lake , you know , that makes sense . General Michael Flynn , that makes sense .

But what I can tell you is there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there are good people within this administration who will do everything possible to address the betrayal and injustice of what took place in Afghanistan . And how do I know that ? Because they're already terrified .

Even under this administration , there are people working very hard to maintain the Taliban , to maintain this terrorist state , to keep funneling US tax dollars to Islamic terrorists right and to this nation's adversaries , and to keep weakening the United States at home and abroad . However , there are people within the intelligence apparatus , within the military .

I know because I've spoken to some of them who recognize that we as a world community are in big , big trouble . The Taliban I referenced this in my first , you know response .

The Taliban have , I mean that area between Pakistan and Talib and Afghanistan , right , the tribal areas and all of that that has long been home to more terrorist groups than any other piece of ground on the face of the earth .

When , when you gave , when you , the United States , joe Biden and Lloyd Austin and Anthony Blinken and all the others right , when you gave a terrorist organization their own state , you took that from pickpocketing to credit card fraud globally .

You took a problem and you made it so big that there are even people today within this administration who are absolutely terrified . And you know what else you did . You allowed the State Department and the CIA to put terrorists on those planes that brought Afghans to the United States .

You didn't track who they were and you didn't follow them , and you allowed that threat to be disseminated all across the United States . You didn't track who they were and you didn't follow them , and you allowed that threat to be disseminated all across the United States . And then there's a third thing that they're doing .

Think about a terrorist state today If the United States has the NSA , which is the crown jewel of intelligence collection globally , anywhere you are on the earth if there's a digital signal , they can capture it and store it , and they have . So when you have that , you have the ability to track and trace and monitor every single terrorist in Afghanistan . Today .

And you know what ? I am sorry to tell you because you're Americans right , you live in the United States . I am sorry to tell you , and everybody listening to this they're not using that capability and this is consistent all across this administration . They're not using the capability . You know what they're telling commanders in space force .

They're saying oh wait , these weapons that we developed for billions of dollars , don't deploy them , don't launch them into space . We don't want to upset the Chinese . Don't deploy them , don't launch them into space . We don't want to upset the Chinese . We don't want these people to think we're escalating tensions .

Oh , but they can might have said oh , but , but you know , but we have some serious national security issues in space . Oh yeah , but that's okay , because we don't want overmatch , what they call overmatch . Right , it's like what did the United States military do in Afghanistan ?

Time after time after time , they brought so much firepower to bear that the enemy chose to leave and fight another day . That was a big part of the strategy that's called overmatch .

So what you're doing is you're taking your advanced military capability and you're trying to widen the gap between you and your adversaries to give you to put you as far ahead as you possibly can . They didn't do that in Afghanistan at the end , did they ? What did they do ?

They left behind the $80 billion Is it 80 million or 80 billion , I forget but they left behind all of that advanced military equipment . They didn't just leave that behind . They had Afghan pilots who made it to Uzbekistan right With very sensitive surveillance packages on board their aircraft that were fully equipped . And what did they do ?

They met with the Taliban and they agreed to give it back to them . And they flew that back . It had left the country , but they gave it back because they don't want the United States to be ahead . They are reducing overmatch where you've gone way beyond your adversaries . And they said we just need parity . What is parity ?

Parity is an even playing field , right ? So now we're going to waste , we're going to squander everything we've invested , everything that we've built , and we are going to strip our armed forces of that and we're going to put you on a playing field where you can get beaten .

Those are people who are running this country today and if , by some miracle , they don't manage to delay the election , use some excuse like a false flag , event or emergency powers or you know whatever it happens to be .

If they're prevented from doing that and they're forced into having this election and they're not , and they don't steal it yet again like they did in 2020 , which I find I'm not optimistic about that because they have more power than ever today and they're already using CISA , the cyber , you know the , the , the infrastructure agency , right ?

Um , they're already using CISA and the Department of Homeland Security and everything they've got to try to cheat again . So I'm not optimistic that the will of the people will prevail , but if it does and Donald Trump gets back into office , he's just a life raft into office . He's just a life raft .

He's not the whole answer to this , because he still has to deal with the Justice Department , the Department of Homeland Security , department of Education , the FBI , the military . That's been 100% infiltrated by Marxists and global cultists who want to see the destruction of this country .

They believe that they can ascend to be gods in a global world and we are nothing to them .

But more than that , you know he's honest and he can't be booked and people like that are not going to let this terrible , terrible policy prevail .

First of all , the aid needs to be cut right , stop keeping them propped up . But then I understand that you know Americans in general , especially with this war , there's probably no appetite to go back in . Right , and I get that . That's from many sides . People will probably agree with that . But at the same time the terrorists will need to be dealt with .

They can't just be roaming around with free reign , right ? So that leads me to again the concept of resistance and what's currently happening in Afghanistan . I think the current resistance that is in Afghanistan , in particular the National Resistance Front led by Ahmed Massoud I think that they're more than capable of leading this fight if only they're supported .

So I think something like a rerun of the 80s in a sense . Right , how we didn't go in but we assisted the Mujahideen and they were able to take down the superpower of , you know , the competing superpower of the world , which was Soviet Union .

So if we were to provide , you know , support , whether it's intelligence , military support , just equipment to the current resistance . I mean , wouldn't that be a way forward ?

I was living at Bagram Air Base with Afghan soldiers , with General Babajan was the commander there at the time and with his soldiers , and I went with Afghan soldiers . I was surrounded by Afghans when they took Kabul . So I was on the ground .

I saw who was doing the fighting and who was doing the dying , was on the ground , I saw who was doing the fighting and who was doing the dying . And , as Amrullah Saleh said to me once , you don't invade a country with 200 soldiers right , special operations soldiers and you don't hold ground with that many soldiers .

What the US did was a bombing campaign , working with special operators on the ground , and they provided critical support , you know , in terms of intelligence and surveillance and all other things , right ? So when you look at Afghanistan , no one is better equipped to fight than the home team , right ? I mean Afghans .

They know the culture , they know the mountains , they know the villages , they know the culture . I mean they know all of that . So , without a doubt , there is no question at this point that the Afghan people themselves , and the resistance in particular , have the ability to rise up and meet the challenge .

I mean they , as I mentioned , they have taken unbelievable levels of casualties and stayed in the fight and stayed committed , but they need support why ? Well , I mean , first of all , the Taliban is supported by Pakistan . And how many other allies ?

The Chinese have been in there right , because not only for the military and strategic advantages , but for the minerals and everything that goes with it .

You've had Iran playing its role , you've got Russia playing their role , and so on and so on , right and so where are the countries from the United States to India and to Europe and beyond that can provide necessary support for the Afghans to do the fight themselves and to own it right ?

Fight themselves and to own it right , but do not forget the United States . Once again , I'm going to say this they've only ever used 10% of their advanced military capability on the battlefield . Think about what you can do with a stealth drone that is equipped with thermal facial recognition software . You can use stealth drones in one night .

They can go into Afghanistan tonight and they can kill every Taliban and Al-Qaeda leader of significance without putting a single American boot on the ground . If you have the political will to use your military capability , you can take care of this problem in a heartbeat .

I ask you , why did I walk through minefields in the province of Helmand after the British , who betrayed everybody and made all their deals with the Taliban and let them turn Helmand into a bomb making factory ?

Right when they finally withdrew and the US had to fight their way back in , I went with the Taliban and let them turn Helmand into a bomb making factory . Right . When they finally withdrew and the US had to fight their way back in , I went with the Marines .

I was four and a half months pregnant and I was in sewage up to here , crudging through cornfields and mud , losing our shoes in the mud , by the way , because it was so hard . We couldn't walk on the roads because they were so heavily mined . The United States Marine Corps lost more people in Helmand province than anywhere else in the country because of this .

Why did we do that ? It was all theater . It was the theater of war . There was no reason to sacrifice American and Afghan lives on those battlefields because you had the ability to kill those people from afar .

And , by the way , when all those people we said we couldn't find , who were inside Pakistan , all those Al-Qaeda leaders , some of whom were directly responsible for 9-11 , what did they do ? When the Taliban took over , they all came flooding back from Pakistan . They're all living large . We know where to find them . They're in the palace , they're in the ministries .

I mean , are you kidding me ? All I can tell you is that there is no need . This binary choice between an endless war and no war right is a false choice . Yes war and no war right is a false choice .

They're willing to sacrifice , willing to sacrifice young men and young women , right . They're willing to take life in order to keep the charade going , but they don't have to do that . So there are many other choices . So what I would say to you is 100% . You know what .

What would Pakistan do if the United States said to them we want every leader of the Taliban and Al Qaeda , the second tier . Let's start with second tier leadership . We want every single one of them . You got two months to deliver them . Second tier leadership . We want every single one of them . You got two months to deliver them .

And if you don't deliver them , we're coming in to get them . And , by the way , we're not sure you're going to survive that . How fast would Pakistan deliver those people ? How fast , because what happens ? Every time an American general , american politician , you know , a state department or whoever , what time ?

Every time you , american general , american politician , you know , state Department or whoever every time you get a high-level visit to Pakistan , what did they do ? They rolled out an al-Qaeda leader , didn't they ? That's exactly what they did , and so Pakistan knows where they all are . What if the United States said to Pakistan oh you know what ?

We keep your military going , stop the US money . Pakistan has no army , no intelligence services and , by the way , your economy is in big trouble . Oh yeah , so everybody acts that if you say you know we should not abandon Afghanistan , that you're a warmonger and you're insisting that the United States stay in an endless war , that's not true .

There are many things that we can do . There are many people from Pakistan who live and work in the United States today , and where does their money go at the end of every week or the end of every month ? Where does their money go ? Goes back to Pakistan . Stop the visas , stop the money right .

And you know there was an American president I believe it was Roosevelt who said we got to walk softly but carry a big stick . And the United States has stopped doing that , because the United States is run by people , is run by its own enemies .

The enemies within this country , have stolen power from the people and they are driving this country into the ground because they do not want nation states to prevail in a global world . They need us to be controlled by a small number of people who own private companies with no accountability , no elections , nothing , and they want governments to serve them .

They talk about public-private partnerships right ? This is the big thing that Obama said Public-private partnerships right , this was the big thing that Obama said Public-private partnerships . Look at Elon Musk . You know it's not NASA that's going to get us to Mars , it's SpaceX , right ? But what they mean when they say that is you , the people .

You , the government should serve us because we know best , because you're the great unwashed , you're the masses , you people . You're too ignorant . Let us decide for you , because we know best , we , the people in Washington DC and Boston , massachusetts and Los Angeles and San Francisco .

We know you people who live in Oklahoma , or you know you people in Afghanistan , in the rural areas or even in the cities . You don't understand . We know best and so let us take care of it and you just do what we say .

That's the world that they want us to live in , and you know what the light of freedom is what lives in the hearts of the resistance , because God made us free and he gave us free will and it doesn't matter whether you're Muslim or you're Christian or you're Jewish or you're Hindu or you're Sikh or you're Buddhist , it doesn't matter , because we know .

We know that God is the truth , that's the truth , and God , he never interferes in our decisions , because when he gives us free will , he says okay , that is a principle , that is absolute , and if I interfere and change your decisions , then I am not honest , then I am not true , and there is only one truth , and that one truth is God .

And I have to say , you know , in many of my years in Afghanistan , I was not as close to God as I am today , and I learned and I watched and I observed and I'm very happy that this is a bond I share with many of my Afghan friends now is that I share this really deep commitment to God and a much closer understanding of where we are in the world , and

I understand that we have to fight for God and then we leave the rest to him , because there's some things that are beyond our control .

You've highlighted , you know , um such a critical perspective , um , that's actually shared between the leader of the national resistance front of afghanistan , uh , ahmad massoud , and you know your stance on afghanistan's resistance , this whole notion that support doesn't necessarily require boots on the ground , and you know those further insights on our military , the US

military capabilities . You know , as you mentioned , we're not even using 10% of it , right ? Yeah , reflecting on an assertion which I was reminded of that in an article I had read the leader of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan , ahmad Massoud .

It was an assertion that even if just 1% of the aid given to Ukraine , or that , yeah , that would have been sufficient for the NRF to decisively counter the Taliban .

And , alongside his call for political rather than military support , how do you think his leadership and strategies are influencing the global perspective on aiding Afghanistan's struggle for autonomy and freedom ?

Well , one tactic is they take your strengths and they use those against you . They make them , they turn them into weaknesses .

So , for example , when Zulmal Khalilzad and others were negotiating their backroom deals with the Taliban and busy betraying the Afghan people , people like Amrullah Saleh , who are very loyal and very honest , they used those strengths against him to help blind him to the reality that was in front of him .

He just could not believe that the United States would betray an old friend , an ally , to that degree . And so that's one thing is they take your strengths and they make them weaknesses . Then what they also do is they appeal to our human weaknesses and frailties . So what are those ? We know them because you know why we know them . They never change , right ?

What was the downfall of leaders throughout history ? Well , ego , right , hubris , greed , all these things are the same . So what happens to the money ? This is a big question what happens to the money ? Where did it go ? Well , many of the Afghan leaders , they took that money . Look at Ashraf Ghani , terrible man , right .

He took money from the people and he fled for his life . He was a coward . Now I know many Afghans didn't support him and the US shoved him on the Afghans . So he's not the best example , but Ismail Khan , right , and others . He's not the only one . I keep saying his name , but he was not the only one .

There were many leaders of the Afghan Mujahideen who abandoned the resistance , right . And so , when you look at that , well , why did they do that ?

Because some of them got fat , some of them got lazy , some of them got greedy , some of them got rich , some of them got all of those things , and so these are things that continue to plague the leadership in exile of the NRF right . These are things that have made it difficult . The other thing is , sometimes the leadership has been blind .

I was shocked to discover , during the whole betrayal and everything that was going on , that there were ISI spies that I knew were ISI spies that were advising leaders of the resistance , and some of them were Pakistani and some of the you know , you've got to be smart about the playing field , right .

Think tanks are just the repositories for spies , for foreign spies . Academic think tanks in Washington DC is where people pack all their spies okay . Usaid , that's a front for the CIA , that's also packed with spies . The defense attache in any embassy top spot okay . So you have to be smart about the playing field .

And it was very difficult for the young Ahmed Shah Massoud to fill the shoes of his father . I mean number one he's never been tested in combat . Number two he's extremely young . Number three he's grown up in a completely different time , a completely and utterly different time .

Number , you know , I think number four he had some bad people around him giving him bad advice . Now , all of these things can be overcome , right , and many of them have been overcome , but what that has essentially done is weaken the resistance , also ego and petty politics . Afghans have very long memories , as you know .

Right , this can be a strength , but what did I say in the beginning ? They take your strengths and they use those against you . So those long memories can also be used to hold grudges . Also , what is part of Afghan culture ? Recognizing age right , age over youth . So you really are trying to upend a lot of Afghan culture .

When you say you need to revere this young man because of his family and because of his history , I mean , I walked in the footsteps of Ahmad Shah Massoud and those who followed him . You know , I knew Engineer Ibrahim . I went into the Panjshir Valley .

I was in the room where Amr Shah Massoud died , okay , where he was blown up by the two Arabs who masqueraded as journalists and then and then blew him up .

I was in the room where Massoud's guards kept those journalists for more than a week before they allowed him into them into the same room , right , because they they believed that they had vetted them but they had been deceived .

So , more than a week before they allowed them into the same room , right , because they believed that they had vetted them but they had been deceived . So you know , I know the history of the lion of the Panjshir and I saw his picture in the windows . I see him behind you , right there , zubair , on your bookshelf . I see his face , right .

I mean , this is something that I have an intimate relationship with , and so I understand how difficult it was , how much it was to ask of a young man . You cannot become your father overnight . You have to be born on your own and become your own man , and he wasn't given the chance before he was thrust into that position .

So I believe very strongly that it is possible for the resistance to rise . You know how I know ? Because , first of all , they have truth on their side .

Second of all , they have God on their side , and maybe I've got that in the wrong order First they have God on their side , then they have the truth on their side , and then they have displayed true courage in the face of everything .

And one thing Afghans know how to do you know arguably better than any other nation on earth is how to overcome in the face of adversity . You know , I stood there in the war with the Taliban and I um , I was just struck by how , how obstinate and stubborn Afghans could be .

You know , like I go to buy something in the market , the guy tells me it's $20 . Give him my $20 . He says no , it's 40 . And I say it was $20 three seconds ago . He says , well , now it's 40 . And I say , well , I'm not paying 40 . Well then , don't take the mattress , you know .

And we could be there for an hour and that man would not move , you know , and so that is something quite extraordinary Afghans have the mettle right . You're not . This is , you're not going to take that away . Methyl right ? You're not . This is , you're not going to take that away . You will not take away the heart of the resistance .

I know this in my bones , I know it in my blood , I know it in my soul , I know it in my DNA . You will never take the heart of the resistance . And you know what Good is stronger than evil and good will prevail .

So I just believe , I really do truly believe that if , if it is Ahmed Shah Massoud , you know , if it is his son who is meant to rise and to lead , then it will be him , then it will be him . But what ?

What the Afghan diaspora has to be honest with themselves about , is that they got lazy and they got greedy and they've been infiltrated and they've been blinded , they've been deceived and they've been betrayed and now , now it is time to rise .

As far as you know Ahmad Massoud as the leader of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan , I do want to mention something here . You know , you spoke about some other figures of the resistance as well , right ? Especially during that time where everyone was so confused , right ?

And yeah , but you know , with , as you mentioned , the son of the legendary commander , Ahmad Shah Massoud , right he , without hesitation , when all others did flee , some of whom you mentioned right , and many others as well , from that time of the Mujahideen right . He stayed back .

He created not only this narrative but , till this very day , everything and anything resistance related , some , sometimes , you know , and , and without a shadow of doubt , the resistance of the women of afghanistan , I think , is at the very forefront .

However , um , were it not for ahmad masood , however , were it not for Ahmad Massoud calling for a national uprising , specifically a national uprising right , calling for everybody , from all parts of the country , to rise up and well , wake up , rise up and fight right , resist , resist militarily .

He's made it on many occasions , expressed out resistance is not just militarily , as you mentioned as well , right ? So I guess what I wanted to ask is what are your thoughts specifically about his personality ?

As far as , as much as you do , are aware and know , because the people , uh , perhaps , or arguably , um , most of the people of afghanistan , uh , I , I'm sorry , this is without a shadow of doubt that most people of afghanistan consider him a young , educated and clean , as clean , as you had mentioned , you know , with some of the other figures , corruption and

taintedness in so many different ways . He's the only pure individual who , as far as we're aware right now , their existence , is there and took upon this responsibility .

I'm limited by the fact that I'm independent .

Just , you know what that's like , and so what I would say to you is this you had a young man who was he really had a baptism of fire right , because he grew up in a time where it wasn't the war and the hardship that his father and other leaders of the resistance and people had known , and then , when it happened , it was unlike anything the world had ever

seen . This was not a moment that you you know that most people were prepared for . I don't even think that , even with all the knowledge and experience that I have . You know I'm , I'm what am ? I ? Almost 53 , and I've been doing this for more than 35 years , since I was 17 years old , and so I've learned a lot along the way and I become pretty cynical .

But even I was not prepared moment , that moment when we had been trying to save people and bringing people to the gates of the airport and trying to get them on planes , and I had American soldiers on the other end of the line and people handing them phones and me begging those soldiers to let people in .

And when we were hiding people , we had people who were high value targets and we were just , we were not sleeping and we were working 24 seven and there were us forces on the ground that were trying to help and trying to rescue people .

And then that unthinkable moment came , unthinkable moment when I oh my god the Taliban are minutes away and all of the soldiers , the Americans , have disappeared and all these people that I've been moving around from safe house to safe house they're going to die if they stay there , but they're holding on to hope and they're holding on to their faith in the goodness

of the American people and this nation and all those ideals of freedom and justice and equality that they've been fighting for and that they've been told to believe in Right , that all those women that were told you can be anything you want to be Right and don't let anyone tell you . No , everybody was holding on to this and I realized I have to let them .

They have to understand . If they don't leave now , it's over , they're going to die . And I'll never forget one of the the families I had been helping . I had the brother in Australia on the phone and when I said to him over and over again they're not opening the gate , get them out and he kept saying no but this and no but that .

And I won't say his name because I don't want to give that away , but I was screaming his name and saying listen to me , they've gone and they're not coming back . It's over , it's over and the Taliban are on their way . Get out . And all I heard on the end of the phone was a blood-curdling scream . He couldn't talk . He couldn't talk and we couldn't talk .

We sat around my dining room table and I sat with men , and grown men wept . We wept because we couldn't believe that it was real . We couldn't believe that this country , this government , would betray our allies to that degree and it was so painful .

So you're asking a young man to understand a moment of geopolitical consequence of historic proportions when he was not equipped , none of us were equipped to understand that . So , unfortunately , the price that has been paid for that has been paid in blood and it's still being paid in blood , in suffering , in darkness , and there's no higher price than that .

And your people in Afghanistan , your relatives , your friends , the people that you know they're still paying that price right now as we are having this conversation . So I think what had to happen with Ahmed , with with Ahmed Massoud , was he had to become a man so that he could lead .

A boy cannot lead and he was just a boy when this happened and he had men around him , but he also had spies around him and he had traitors , and what they are very good at doing is , when there's a straight line between you and the truth and the objective and what you need to do , they take you like this and they lead you here and they lead you there

and they lead you back , and so what I saw at that time was a man who , you are right , he didn't run , he's still there and he's still in the fight , and that gives me hope and faith in his ability to lead .

But there was a lot of time spent on photographs where he was posing like his father and they were using the old pictures of Massoud and they were relying very heavily on that connection and in part that was justified Because in a culture which doesn't recognize youth in the United States , this culture recognizes youth Youth can rise , just like that .

But in Afghanistan people are a little bit wiser , in a sense right , and people place a huge value on age and experience . So there was some heavy lifting that was going to be required to get people to follow a young man , especially when you're following a young man into battle and he's never been battle tested right .

So in one sense I understand that , the importance of the name and the importance of the legacy and the importance of the history . But at some times it felt a little bit forced , it felt a little bit fake even because you , you know , you just couldn't manufacture that overnight .

Now it's totally different , because now it is , uh , there has been much suffering , there has been much testing , right , of a person's will and a person's commitment , and he has stayed the course , and so that leads me to believe that he has the ability to do this and you know , he , probably , I , I , my , uh .

What I suspect is that he's going to do this his own way . He can't do it the way his father did it , because the world is different and the fight is different . But I think he's going to do this his own way . He can't do it the way his father did it because the world is different and the fight is different .

But I think he's figured that out at this point , and I say that that's just my personal opinion and what my instinct tells me . I would very much like the opportunity to sit with him and to see firsthand if I'm right about that .

Your depth of knowledge and emotional engagement with these issues , quite frankly , is what I believe truly enriches our understanding as well of Afghanistan's current state and for our listeners and viewers . To our listeners and viewers To our listeners .

We hope this conversation has provided you with valuable insights into the complexities and the heart of the struggle in Afghanistan . We encourage you to continue following these developments and support the cause in any way you can . Lara , truly , I don't have the words to say that it's been an absolute privilege having you with us .

Again , thank you for sharing your expertise and perspectives .

I posted many times these are the bravest women in the world . I know many of them have been raped and tortured and murdered . I know they've been silenced and intimidated , but what I would urge you to never forget is that the power of those women is their power to reach the heart of every woman and many men all across the world .

And that is how you rise above the politics , that's how you transcend the Democrat , republican divide and you know , and so on and so on . And it is still the most powerful thing that you can share about Afghanistan .

So , in your work and in what you're doing , whatever you can do to make sure that the sacrifices and the bravery of those women and the plight of the women and the girls in Afghanistan , and all those cute Afghan boys that stood up and said I'm not going to school until my sister can go to school , you know the Afghan fathers and brothers and others who have

fought for them . That is how you're going to reach people . You know , if you're wondering what can I do from Los Angeles , or you know wherever you are in the United States , you can keep alive the flame of resistance and freedom and dignity in the stories and the reality of the Afghan women today , because no one can defend that .

No one can defend what the United States , the United Nations and Europe and all of these governments across the world , what they have done to the Afghan women and how they have abandoned them to their fate . Nobody can defend that .

You know , americans were abandoned by our , by their government , here and , um , the people of afghanistan also by their own government and by , um , well , you know the those who are supporting them . But , yes , again , thank you , lara , for being with us and to everyone listening . Please keep you advocating for justice and peace until our next episode .