Harry Sexton - Matilda Bay Brewery

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It was always part of the plan to put a brew in, but for many years it it was just a plan. It's a hundred percent acquisition of Green Beacon. No, we had a chat with everybody. Anyone would have seen this coming a mile away. It's always fun to get to speak about beer. This is Beer as a Conversation and we're here to talk about all things Beer.

This week I have with me Harry Sexton, head brewer at Matilda Bay Brewery in Victoria. It's a last name you might be familiar with, as Harry's dad is Phil Sexton, industry veteran and original founder of Matilda Bay, which lost its way a little after he left. The return of Phil to Matilda Bay in twenty nineteen resurrected the brand and also meant a new challenge for Harry.

I spoke to him about the challenges of being at the helm of a brand with so much heritage, working with family, and what he wants to do with Matilda Bay to make it his own. So welcome to the Beer is a Conversation podcast, Harry. Good morning. How you doing, Claire? Good morning, Harry, how are you?

Very well, thank you. Sitting in cold, rainy Hillsville. Oh, that's all right. Well we're chilly up here in Brisbane too, but blue skies, I'm sorry to say. Uh don't mean to rub that in. It's fine, I'm used to it. Oh brilliant. So well, bloody congratulations on your AIBA wins last week. How was that? Thank you very much. Uh very, very exciting to see. Um it's, you know, a a a new brewery getting off the ground, if you can call Matilda Bay that and um

getting some recognition for our beers is is fantastic. Always a good thing. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, like I always ask people, you know, why do you enter a awards? What's what do you do it for? Is it a like does it help with marketing? Does it help with feedback? Like why do you guys do it? Well look, me and uh the marketing guy James definitely have different opinions about this.

it's you know, uh being able to say you've won gold medals or or even trophies for beers are are definitely gonna help sell them and and get you recognition across the the beer community. However For me personally and my brewing team, we we love to see what the judges say. Um of course Of course, awards are very category based so so the actual merit of the beer as a as a beer uh is only part of the question. Um, how it fits into the category is gonna be

It's gonna be very decisive in how you go. But you get really good judges' comments um on all your beers. So being able to see how expert taste is uh are looking at your beer and um

And certain comments they've got for them are are definitely super useful. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I know that's something that people have um mentioned about lots of awards is that, you know, they do have the limitations on um the categories you have to fit within that category based on certain criteria, which is absolutely a what you wanna do, but I guess it doesn't necessarily uh leave a lot of room for creativity, I guess.

No, and you know there are some categories like specialty fear or uh well basically specialty beer where you are allowed a little bit more leeway and um I know we definitely put one of our cherry saisons in that category and that kind of lets the beer speak for itself which is which is really exciting for the styles that aren't Rooted in history. Yeah. Absolutely.

And speaking of rooted in history, Harry. Uh so yes. Matilda Bay, we obviously love it. Um, my editor Matt has followed you guys from the beginning. Um, but tell me a little bit about your backgro background. Did you always want to be a brewer? Um seeing Phil in the industry were you like absolutely or when you were younger were you like absolutely not? No, it was definitely absolutely. Uh so you know, growing up growing up in a house with Phil was or dad I'd

I always get I always get weird weird comments when I start calling him Phil, but um I'll stick with Phil for the interview anyway. Uh growing up with him Definitely immersed me in the craft well liquor market essentially. So so when I was young, it was little creatures. He'd he'd stepped back from Matilda Bay when I was born. Um and so Little Creatures of course was was are always around the house and I was trying and t smelling beers from a

reasonably young age and and then of course he started giant steps and is a bystander so was quite heavily into the wine industry as well. And And that was actually where I broke into um well, working in the industry. I I started in wine, so From about fifteen years old I was out on the vineyards picking fruit, helping drive tractors, uh and then moving into the winery and helping helping make the wine itself. So I've I've actually had more experience and more time in the wine industry.

and and really develop quite a love for that and the the beauty behind winemaking and a link to the country where you're uh sourcing fruit from and And of course the sort of finesse palettes that you can have in wine and sort of very subtle differences that you can have from region and and winemaking style. And it wasn't until It wasn't until Matilda Bay and and this concept for relaunching Matilda Bay out in Hillsville um that I really Sleep well, something in my brain.

went, actually brewing brewing's a pretty good option. And I and I may be making wine, but I'm definitely drinking lots of beer. So so it was it was that opportunity to come on with Matilda Bay and help with the project that that sort of launched me into a brewing career. In terms of like qualifications and stuff then, did you just brew alongside Phil or how did you get that sort of experience? So coming out of high school I I went I went

straight into university and I I studied biochemistry and it it wasn't brewing biochemistry, it was it was full on almost medical biochem but with zero intention of being a doctor. And So went through that and with my wine making got a very good hand on production and you know, production of fermented beverage and then joining the brewery uh I kind of came in with just that. So had to learn a lot of the brewing skills and the brewing theory.

through the I B D of course and um and with Phil and with all the um really really skilled brewers that I've had alongside me either consulting with me or or when I first started, um, I was working for

Absolutely. And I mean, I guess having Phil as your dad probably helped a lot in gaining entrance to some industries. Would you agree? Oh of course. Um, you know, uh it's I I can't I can't suggest that it it's uh not a little bit easier having the surname Sextum in the brewing industry and and you know, you you get people coming up to you and saying, Hello, oh, I know your dad, I work within ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty years ago in in every sort of aspect of the industry. And

And there's you know, there's something to be said about being able to sit down to dinner and of course the the conversations always end up in beer and um and business. So, you know, talking about the intricacies of things he was doing when, you know, he was working in Salzburg or

working and doing study through Weinstefana, um there there's there's just so many little tidbits that you get and that just sort of builds to having quite a comprehensive knowledge of of a whole v uh varied um amount of beer and and brewing techniques. Definitely. And it must be so strange hearing all that I know y I know we were talking about whether you should call him Phil or Dad. Um Matt did a podcast with uh Louise Cooper.

Uh and obviously part of the Coopers family. And so she said exactly the same thing. She was like, It's so weird, like I don't know whether to call him Tim or like who they're calling Dad And I mean I you guys are well, you're second gen now, um, but it must be really interesting to work with your d uh you weren't working with him necessarily all the way through your career, but how closely do you work with him now?

Oh very close. Oh yeah, super close. He doesn't just swan about and then you come in and do all the work.

No well, no, you know. Uh little bit of that. No, we we work really closely but of course he's he's he's running the whole business. So he's definitely not on the floor with us in the brewery. Um But when we've got new beers coming through, i he he's always the first one to duck into the cellar and ask for a taste and and we're definitely working very closely on re recipe design and and just sort of where we want the styles of our brewery to go together.

Um and it's it's a lovely balance between that and quite a lot of free reign for interesting side projects and bar specials and and uh just general tweaks to recipes.

Um b so I mean, the move from wine to beer must have been an interesting one. You know, we talk a lot in the beer industry about how we're not necessarily uh seen as quite high end as wine. Um To in terms of government support, the wine industry has received a lot of support uh in funding and lots of other ways that the beer industry is only just getting now.

How what's that like from your perspective? Obviously you've seen both sides of that coin. It's interesting there because uh what what I've seen, you know, the big difference I see between the two industries is where the premium ax aspect comes from. So so winemaking is always the vineyard and and the skill of a winemaker is to shepherd good fruit, uh, fruit being good wine. And And there's you know, there's a skill in being a minimalist in a wine winery where you allow the fruit to do the tour.

And and that is a beautiful thing and I I really enjoy that. Whereas in brewing I think we have a lot more on our shoulders as brewers and and the beer is of course um

Made up of excellent ingredients and finding the best ingredients is going to get you a good beer. However, the skill of the brewer is is maybe m more forefront than it is in winemaking in a w in a way where you know, you do have to create a recipe and and you do have to shape things in m many more touch points than in winemaking and

And when a good beer comes through, it's very rarely going, Oh, well that barley that barley field produced an excellent crop last year and the weather was perfect for great barley. No, it's it's almost always the brewer, so And so that's that's a I mean I I love that and I love I love being as responsible, if not more so responsible for the quality of a beer than than what what the weather was like.

Exactly. Exactly. It's really interesting. And like I think that wine's got this sort of mystique about it as well, you know, these like um all these wine. gorgeous wooden barrels and vineyards and stuff. And when you go to an actual like big winemaker, it's like same as brewing. Huge giant silver vats. Um not quite the perception necessarily that people uh on the street would see of wine, um or expect of wine.

So, um, yeah, from a sort of an industrial standpoint, um, you know, I think beer gets a little bit of flack for being too industrial or you know, perceived as even processed or something like that. And obviously there's a huge process going into it. Uh but there is with wine as well. And I think it's just maybe a repositioning of beer to point out that craft, um, to point out that uh the crazy amount of variables that a brewer has to deal with in every single brew that they do.

you know, it's it's a fine art, um, as I'm sure you well know. Um but uh the ri the that you point out the uh responsibility of it um was really interesting as well'cause obviously you'll have a brew team now. How how are you how is that? What are they like? Absolutely. So

when we started this project back in twenty nineteen it was just me and then we got a brewer who who was running the joint. Um and sort of gone through a whole bunch of evolutions to a team now where it's three of us. Uh myself and I've got two assistant brewers and we're just about to restructure as well. Um one of my brewers is

moving somewhere warmer. And uh so yeah, there's there's a there's a fair bit of responsibility getting a team together and running a team, but I've been immensely lucky with two excellent brewers and and the guy coming in to replace. Um my brewer is also hopefully gonna be excellent and um fantastic to work with people who are just as passionate as I am and just as dedicated as I am to to craft

these beers and and also these are these are people who've got experience in other aspects. So one of them was a winemaker as well, so he's great with our barrel program and just, you know, getting getting uh different ideas and different sets of knowledge on on process really helps us sort of expand where we can go with our beers and and look at them from different sets of eyes.

Absolutely. And I love that we've stolen um some skill sets from the wine industry. Um I'm here for that. Uh but what uh what about when you're looking for people? Do you look specifically for a background? Do you look for qualifications like How would you as a manager I guess um choose staff? Yeah. So the question around qualifications I It's always an interesting one because an idea of what they know is

is of course super important. However, um you can have qualifications and no practical skill and and that's almost as bad as the opposite, if not worse. And so Typically I I look for someone who is inspiring and someone who really looks like they have something to give and also, you know, have have a lot to learn and and want to learn with

in what we're doing. So y you know, is qualifications necessary? No. Is it great? Of course. I I'm typically looking for someone who's passionate and someone who has a little bit of background in in making something, um, whether it be beer or wine or spirits or or bread, you know, it they they all have a lot of skill and and that can lead into a brewing career very easily.

And I mean, I don't know about you, but that's what I've always really admired about the brewing industry, is that it brings so many people in that haven't just gone through a Like a set career path. Like people have come in it from all sorts of different industries, all sorts of different backgrounds, and they bring with them what they learn, whether that is

through mo about marketing or finance or um the actual brewing of the beer. Um I always think that that is one of the strengths of the brewing industry. Um I don't know if you agree. Oh no, absolutely. And And, you know, the the one thing they all bring is a love of beer. And it's and it's one of the the few industries I've been around where

everyone you run into just adores what they are making. And, you know, mine sure they they do as well. That's I'm I'm not suggesting they don't, but Yeah, you know, you're not gonna get into dentistry or

or, you know, a k a management consultancy and have everyone yeah, have everyone absolutely adore what they're doing. Um whereas brewing brewing they do. And and it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, talking to someone from Abbotsford or Cascade or Lion Nathan, um, down to the smallest little craft brewery, they're all gonna have something to talk about and and they're all gonna love beer. And that's what we need.

Speaking of, they've we've also got some uh favourites back from Matilda Bay. So you guys have been working hard um on bringing back some old favourites, I believe. So tell talk me through them. Um obviously they're slightly different recipe from um when Phil did them originally. Yeah, of course. So look when we when this project came to light back in early twenty nineteen when we were all talking together.

uh that was that was not part of the conversation amazingly. We were we were talking about owl, the original ale and and how we were going to make make a new beer and and it was gonna it was gonna be what this whole place was about. And then of course you put a brewery in and

And you start hearing, Well, where's Redback? Um, you know, we want redback. So so of course we ended up doing that and And being a being a brewer who was involved well who sorry, who who wasn't involved with any of the originals that

And to be honest, was a little bit too young to be drinking them when they were being brewed. Um, especially by Phil, but at least, you know, some of the brewers who were spearheading Matilda Bay afterwards, I had a big job ahead of myself. Um to go, well, what was Redback and and what should Redback be today and should it just be a should it be a cover cover band and

And are we are we just bringing this back to to be a bit of a novelty or or do we think that the bones of Redback were incredible but we can tweak them to be more modern and to fit with what people are drinking today. So, you know, with Redback, Dog Boulder and Alpha, they're the three that we've we've done this with so far, we've tweaked them to to sort of typically just freshen them up and and make them a little bit uh cleaner and more drinkable than they were back in the day.

And and we've done that with some really cool brewing tricks and and different yeast strains and and sort of natural natural ways of getting these fresher flavours. Um go on Harry, what your tricks? What what are my tricks? Um Well Redback you know, Redback back in the day was a big old hef. Um and of course, I think that's a good thing

uh filtered redback or crystal redback wasn't was another version of it. And we we moved away from the heifer bison yeast um because those massive banana and clove characters were just not Not really what we thought the market was after with Redback again. So we've we've taken it slightly down a farmhouse route. Um and just very, very slightly to give it some of those slightly funky, phenolic characters that you know everyone.

It's what makes Redback Redback. But um the strain we've found uh also gives us slightly citrusy characters and mandarin rind characters which which give it that sort of fresh summer character, which is why we've we've changed the name from Redback Original to Redback Summer, so it's it's definitely ours and and you know which one you're getting. Absolutely. And I think it's really important that we do adapt and change. Uh I know

We're getting to that point in the brewing industry, in Australia even, um, where you're getting um some veterans and we're allowed to call them veterans now if you're like ten, fifteen years plus. Um and it's got to the point where the market now is so different from when they started. let alone when Matilda Bay started. And that was only five like ten years ago, uh, for some of them.

But they're getting to the point where they're thinking, you know, there's lots of new entrants, there's lots of people doing lots of cool stuff, um, and they're they're a lot newer um than we are. Now obviously Matilda Bay hasn't been through like operating consistently through that period. Um, but I'd be really interested to to know um

how many what those conversations were like when you first started? Like how do you like you say, not just do a cover band and with the whole brand, um, as well as the peers. Uh and make it your own as well, Harry,'cause you know, this is you spearheading this and and the beers and and stuff as well now, and I'm sure Phil will want you to do that in the future as well. Um so how do you make it your own? Absolutely. So

Look, you know, cover bands cover bands are great, I remember. I mean, musically at least at uh at h uh university they they would play they'd have a different band in every Wednesday and And the one that drew the biggest crowd uh consistently year after year was Babba. Um, the ABBA cover band and it was it was just the most fun. So like, you know, they're great but you kinda go away and you're like, Oh it was funny

you're definitely not gonna buy their album. Um and you know, with the brewing with the brewing world you you're not gonna go away and keep buying their beers if it's if it's just a novelty. So

You know, I'm not suggesting for a second that the Matilda Bay beers, if they were reinvented, they would be crap and they would be a novelty, but I think it's got an aspect of that and and Matilda Bay as a brand has always been an innovator.

uh you know, in the eighties they innovated a whole category of vehicled craft beer and um and they did that by taking some incredible classic European styles and and bringing them over and brewing them uh you know expertly. So I think I think what I'm trying to do is keep that aspect of Matilda Bay alive, the innovation, and and looking at the incredible craft beers,'cause they are craft beers that are coming out of Europe and the traditional style

and going, Well, how do they fit in today's market and how how are we gonna how are we gonna make them our own and make them something that people people really want to drink and and find the ones that people aren't drinking. So you know, combining that aspect of Matilda Bay with my own wine background and trying to come up with some some new styles that take heritage from from Europe really.

So I think, you know, the best example of what we're doing now is our cherry saison where we found a incredible French strain which is fully diastatic, so it's it's an aggressive strain. Scares the shit out of me at night when I don't know I don't know. Well, y you know, you just it's it's always a risk of course, but it's the reward is well and truly worth it because it just creates this incredibly subtle, uh, incredibly fine palette where

it allows fruit to really shine through. And the the most recent batch we've done is with Victorian Morello Sour Cherries, where I work with the farmer to get'em harvested and get'em processed.

in time and and we're now brewing with them and it's just creating this insane beer that is Bone dry, zero play-doh, uh, yet has incredible sort of luscious mouthfeel through the natural yeast glycerols and And of course this sort of sweetness, which is not sweetness, it's a fruit sweetness from these sour cherries.

and it's just really, really cool. And and we're playing with barrels with this Saison and everything. So I think it's taking taking beer to a to a different place where we're playing with Um the more fine characters that I learnt in wine and the other thing. and sort of subtleties in beer that are now expressing what location really. So we can talk about where the farms are and what the years were like and what the cherries were like. And we can do that with multiple different fruits.

And I I think that's that's got some legs to to really explore with um and see where we can take beers like this. And I think that...

that's the really interesting thing that we'll be doing at Matilda Bay where it's different and it's it's new and it's uh hopefully innovative. And and hopefully people like to drink it at the end of the day. That's that's gonna be the the big test. Um But being able to do that alongside the classics and the classics done slightly differently and and of course taking learnings from the new styles and incorporating them into the old I think will be what we're up to for the next couple of years.

And I really love the um focus on local. I know um it's sort of been a big topic of conversation over the past couple of years in terms of provenance and not only for um the brewers and their creativity of brewers but also from a consumer perspective. Have you noticed that as well, that uh um, you know, consumers are looking at locality and provenance a bit more than they ever had? Or I mean, being in wine I guess that's always been the case.

It's definitely always been the case in the valley. Um yeah, I I grew up here. I've I've basically lived here since ninety seven, I think. Um and being a local and and looking at the land around you's always been really important here. getting getting the transition of that sort of mentality from wine to beer is trickier, I feel, because brewing at least in the last sort of twenty years I feel hasn't hasn't been as rooted in its home as of course in the past when it was

Where do you get your water from? What spring have you plonked your brewery down on? Um but we're definitely trying to shout that story. So uh w we're d we're doing Aussie wheat beers, so you know, locating our home in Australia and and then of course the cherry saves on, getting it getting it closer to home again.

is is a story that we're proud of and um you know, one little marketing thing I guess I can say is that the Cherry Saison label if you ever get to see it is is actually die cut in a in a in the shadow of

um the blue mountain range that we're sitting on. So if you if you get up on the roof of Matilda Bay and look east, I think you'll actually be able to hold the Saison bottle and trace the mountains on it. So cool. And and it's So little little things like that that we like to sort of shout that we're in the Yarrow Valley and mm and being at a food bowl and you know, the one of the larger fruit um growing areas. So Victoria at least, we've got so many local things to play with. Mm-hmm.

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Now that definitely was not the answer I was expecting. And if you enjoyed that, please hang around at the end of this podcast to hear more about Chris's approach to whiskey in this bonus chat. It's a really fascinating insight into the partnership between beer and whiskey. You make such an important point as well though, that like people you try and do what you can in terms of um using local produce. Uh but

We it's quite tricky, I imagine, to do an all Aussie beer. Like it's it's possible, it's and people have done it. Um but getting everything from Australia is pretty hard work, I'd say. Yeah, of course. And if you're being really strict about it, um getting Australian yeast is gonna be tricky. Finding a a native a native strain of Yeast that is gonna be alcoholic.

Yeah. Um yeah. I I actually haven't even looked into that yet. That's a good point. I should I should start digging. I'm sure they exist. I'm sure they do. And it's a bit of an odd one as well because obviously people do sort of wild yeast beers and um open fermentation stuff. I know. Um I think Van Diemen do it in Tasmania for instance. But it's also like we've imported so much like crap from Europe. Just everybody and everything and there's so many invasive species and things like that.

You know, I could you guarantee that it's a hundred percent Aussie? I'm not sure. I'm not sure that you could. Um but yeah, so it's it's depends how far you want to go back, I guess. Uh but yeah, an interesting one and a difficult one for the brewing industry as well. And I think it's a not just about getting that necessarily all the local ingredients. Um, it's about being part of your local community as a brewery, as a brew pub. Um but that must be hard when you go bigger. So

Obviously everybody knows Matilda Bay. Um, you guys what are your plans in terms of um being national and how do you keep that sort of local angle while also being such a well known brand? Well I mean national uh national sorry is gonna be every brewery's goal, right? You know, you you breweries breweries wanna brew beer and breweries wanna brew more and and once you've filled your state you you're gonna look for other ones. So

Matilda Bay and even at the moment we're we're not national, but we kind of have two homes. Um of course the Yarrow Valley is where we're brewing and and where all of our beer's coming from. However WA has massive, massive ties to Matilda Bay and And we are finding that we've got way more recognition and and way more people talking about Matilda Bay coming back in WA than we do in Victoria. Wow. So That's kind of what we're doing at the moment. We're we're

getting getting relationships with pubs over in WA as well as Victoria and we're selling in dans in both states. So I think that's where we're gonna start. We're gonna we're gonna re well reclaim reclaim sounds a bit too aggressive. We're gonna we're gonna start playing around in both of our homes um and and see how that goes and then of course going national is

Is the next step from there. And what beer it'll be with, I I'm not quite sure. Uh in the bottom of my heart, I hope it's red back because it It is an absolutely cracking beer. Um I'm sure my marketing team will sort of hate me for saying that'cause the origin the original ale is is out there and that's what it's meant to be doing. Um but, you know, I'm not marketing. I I just like the beer. You're allowed to, yeah, you're the brewer. You can say what you're allowed to Um

And and where the beer's gonna come from, uh, you know, it it'll change. We've we've got a pretty big site here where we're brewing lots of beer at the moment and we're actually sharing the site with the Giant Steps Winery, so they've got They've probably got two thirds of it at the moment and they're building a winery so when they move we've got lots more space for can wines and tanks and bigger brookhouses.

you know, any toy I can beg for. Um and hopefully we can turn this place into an absolute machine of pumping out excellent beer and and pumping out some really cool styles'cause we've got barrel holes set up already and they're just waiting for beer. I think, you know, they're whispering to me that they want beer more than wine. But Excellent. Like to hear that. It's whoever gets there first, Harry, that's what I think. Whoever manages to fill it first.

That's that's at least the the the business plan is to is to really set up in WA again and And whether or not there'll be a real home over there I'm not sure yet. I I hope so. Um and and then of course try to make the Arrow Valley ours and and really sort of ingrain ourselves with the locals and I'd join up with more of the footy clubs and more of the markets and and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Um and you just mentioned uh your toys. Uh I know a brewer loves their toys. Um so

Tell me a bit about your site then,'cause obviously you sort of got to be in there from the ground up, didn't you? Um, it's all shiny and new still. Um, even though it's been couple of years now I guess. Um, but I know I spoke to James Arris, uh marketing manager at Matilda Bay, with respect to becoming um carbon neutral and things like that.

So t just talk me through, talk me through the brewery, um how you developed it, what you really wanted in it, um, how you got it to that stage and and what sort of the priorities were when you were building it. Yeah, absolutely. So we started building in twenty nineteen and and there were a couple things that we were really trying to do. One of which was

make it very manual. Um there's been a big shift in the industry to going fully automatic because it's hard to find brewers and you get better repeatability if you can just set up a program and press go. But You know, myself and Phil both believe that if you have a skilled brewer running a brew house you're gonna get a better bid.

Um so the brew house we put in, American system twenty hectolitres, is completely manual apart from a couple temperature things. Um so we have we have a brewer strapped to that. um all day every day when we're brewing and and that was that was really important to it. The other things was You know, we set it up to be beautiful as well. It's it's right in the middle of our pub, so we we needed it to look good.

Um it does, uh if I can say so myself. It looks fantastic. And and so having it on show um and and all the all the sort of behind the scenes aspects of a brewery, the the mill room, the the boiler room are all on show, which is really, really lovely. Um last thing was we set it up with the ability to use spring water from the upper Yarra Valley. So So we have uh forty thousand litres of water tank, um which can pump directly to our liquor tank.

So we can run off spring water and and for our original ale we we still do that. So we tank a water down from the upper valley and um and brew with it, which is unbelievably soft and unbelievably pure. um really sort of leading itself to a great deal. Um and sustainability of course. So I mean the the biggest and the the one that you can see on photos at least is our solar array.

Uh when we built the place, we took over two of the four roofs and completely filled them with solar panels, which is Basically producing it'd be nearly eighty percent of what we're using in the brewery. Um which is a great step towards towards being at least site carbon neutral and then of course we we have to go out and find um green energy on the grid, etc., for for the rest of it. And so that that's the big major one. But of course working with Actually Phil who owns the

Some head of cattle, so he gets all the spent grain and and theoretically one day they'll they'll go back to the kitchen. Um Oh that's the kind of loop I like. Exactly. Well if the cows are unlucky, but if we're lucky. Um And so we you know, all of our spent grain goes round in a loop to the to the site, um, working on water saving methods of course,'cause there is a thirsty

And um and the power's sorted, so we are just slowly slowly ticking off the boxes to getting the site to be carbon neutral, which is really, really exciting to me. Yeah,'cause was uh I mean, we've seen lots of brewers, um across the industry, sort of bringing in initiatives and projects um to deal with certain aspects of the brewery, um, whether it be sort of supply chain stuff or what what you do with recycling or wastewater or CO two or whatever.

Why do you think that's so important to brewers now? Is it just because there is a general move at like across all industries towards being more sustainable? Or is it because I think we're And I this is just totally me editorialising, but you know, we're kind of aware that we're a really resource heavy industry and this is sort of a way that we can counteract that, maybe.

Oh I think it's I think it's definitely the latter. And I also think it's the type of people that get into the brewing industry. So historically breweries use so much resource, whether that be CO two, which you know comes from the oil industry um or grain which is resource intensive to just the water that you use in a brewery. I think the brewers have started to realise that it's not It's it's not gonna last forever and it's and it's not gonna be it's not gonna be sustainable. So

we're kind of we're kind of realising that we are we are the problem and and we need we need to be the solution. Absolutely um and then and then of course it's the people who get into brewing and

And I think most people who get into brewing are super conscious of of each other and and the environment and sort of socially responsible as well. And And well at least the you know, the people who've been in it for the last thirty years, maybe not hundreds of years ago, but nowadays uh we're all kind of realising that wearing it together and and if we don't do something then It's uh it's not gonna keep going.

Absolutely. And I think it's a really important point and I think um I don't know if you managed to have a look yet, but the IBA have done uh their ten year roadmap and ESG was one of those things that they wanted to focus on from definitely from an independent side of things. Um you probably heard uh Phil and my editor Matt Kierkegaard having a chat about um craft and independence.

they I think they spoke last year after Stone and Wood got sold, uh as well. So, you know, really interesting um takes from that. But you know, you and I, we're sort of coming in it A little bit later in the programme than uh Matt and Phil have. No no casting no aspersions there, Matt and Phil. Um, what do you think about the concept of craft? Is it just a marketing term? Um

What what do you think about it? Is it is it real? Do we care about craft? Do we care about independence? How do they how are they linked? Uh if at all? Because obviously you guys are doing some amazing work, um, crafting beers. You aren't independent, so does it matter? Thank you. Yeah.

I mean th they are now becoming two completely separate points, um, craft and independence I think. And and I I think in the future there will be probably another term on top of craft where we're talking about process versus the final beer or or I'm I'm not quite sure how we would we would phrase it or term that'll decide how determine which category you sit in. But is independence or can you be craft if you're not independent? I mean

Yeah, I absolutely. Um I I think the beers we're doing here are are a good example and you know, the other C U B craft breweries are are definitely crafty, their beers are excellent and and same same goes for lion of course. You know uh Is independence important? I think so. I I think independent breweries are unbelievably important and and also I I have undying respect for the guys that do it because

they're up against a lot a lot. And they're up against a huge amount of competition. Um and you know, so are we, but we've got we've got a bigger business sort of behind it. So you know, I won't go into that too much. But

Craft is it a is it a term that means anything anymore? I d I think so. Um I think people are really and the brewers in the craft industry are sort of reassessing what that means and and sort of looking at how they're growing and and the more sort of technical, older styles that are highly skill intensive.

And they're doing that and they're doing it really well. And I think you'd you'd be pretty naive to say they're not doing craft if it's a double IPA or 'Cause there's there's a lot more into it. Um there's a lot more to the process than just throwing hops in a in an ale. Absolutely. And I I you know, y just hearing you talk about um, you know, the brewers and especially the independent ones, you know, they they do it tough. Um

Would you ever set up on your own, Harry? No, you no, no, you've just uh started it until the bay. Would you ever go, see you later, Phil? I'm off to do my own thing. Yeah, yeah, of course I would. Um A. Oh no, he would, yeah. He would go, Good luck to you. Um probably go, That's gonna be too hard, but

Yeah, please enjoy. It was all right when there was no craft breweries when I started, but now you've got five hundred to deal with. Exactly. Um yes I would. Would I do it next year? Probably not. Um I think there's a lot of unfinished business with Matilda Bay and there's There's lots to learn and lots to you know lots to do here. Um, would I set up my own? Yeah. It would be it would be very fun and And I've got lots of friends who want to do it together and

I think I think there's still more to explore in the industry. I you know, we're definitely saturated but um I think there's still places to play and things to do and And as competitive as the industry is, everyone in it is super welcoming and very collaborative. And I've I've found that with Catilda Bay and I think even the the small independent craft guys probably see more of it. Um because there's

It was never really an us and them with the with the little craft guys. And we saw that at Gabs on the weekend. Everyone just wants to hang out and try beers and chat and talk about how they do it. Um so I think there's I think there's so much to so much to give and so much to learn if I was to go out on my own.

No, I agree and I think that's one of the really interesting sort of made of the industry as well, having come into it only a few years ago really, um, is that it doesn't matter how with size or whether you're next door to each other or whether you're across the country, different state, everyone does seem to just love sharing and

Like if you're like, Oh, I don't know how to do this, um, whether it be a technique or something mechanical or, you know, what to do with the brew pub or like the hospitality side of things, lots people just call each other up or like call in and say, Oh, what what are you guys doing about this? Like every and everyone seems so open about it and

In any other industry I've been in, it's never been like that. It's been very secretive and competitive and there's no like sharing of that knowledge if you can possibly help it and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, obviously you've seen that side of things as well, but what about it in contrast to the wine industry? Is the wine industry the same?

Yes. Yeah they are. Cool. Um I know. I know. There's no hot goss there. Um Oh no, I didn't expect it. I just thought I wonder if they're the same. Um No the wine the wine industry is fantastic and and No, they they do they do all the collaborative things just in slightly different ways where you know, there's no collab lines, um, or there's at least very few that I know of. Um but uh for example out well Matilda Bay actually hosts the Yarrow Valley's pre vintage party so

You know, all the wine makers from all the wineries in the valley come out and they all bring wine and don't buy enough beer and sort of hang out and hang out and chat and talk about wine and try wines together and try each other's wines. It's it's And and that that is Pretty representative of the industry. I love that that's like neutral territory for everyone as well. Exactly. I know. Come to the pub. Yeah, that's it. Drink some wine. Brilliant. That's so cool. Um

No, one thing I I'm gonna have to uh let you go shortly. Um I've already kept you for far too long enough. Um and I was thinking about this. Now this is um one of y'all First potentially like podcasts and you're not on Yeah, there we go, there we go. I wasn't sure, I didn't want to completely go out there with it. But, you know, I I think that's one of the things I see is that um you know, there are usually faces of the business. You know what I mean? Like they're the they're the front of it. Um

Sometimes it's the brewer if they're especially if they're the owner as well. Um, they're in the spotlight a fair bit. What how how are you finding that? I mean obviously this is your only only first podcast, but you've done interviews and stuff I imagine before. I know I've spoken to you before, Harry. Um so how you how would you find that? Have you ever fancied being, you know, the the front of it and the face of it and I think I would freak out. I'm not

I I don't know if I'd be into it. Um that's why I make Matt do everything. Um but what do you think? Um I It's it's an interesting one because I I've never looked for that and and I that was never never any part of it. I've always been sort of behind the scenes and all I'm interested in is making beer. But of course working with Phil has

become part of the story and I've kind of just had to go with it. And whether whether or not whether or not I like it or or not, it's um it's part of what's gonna happen with Matilda Bay. I don't know. I try I try not to think about it, to be honest. Well, I think there's always a way of like making it your own as well. Like you don't have to be out there kissing babies and stuff.

You can do it in your own way and the way that it's com makes you comfortable. Um but yeah, it's interesting that you've sort of been forced into it as well. Um'cause I know the feeling. Um we we enjoy what we do, um and then sort of being the face of the. you know, we we may be the ones that have to talk, but there's a whole team of people behind us that are just as worthy and um And also. contributing just as much to to what we're doing.

Absolutely. Amen to that. Um I saw um a post talking about your rejected ale. Um, which I thought was really cool'cause that's won some awards recently as well. So talk me through the rejected L's'cause that's such an interesting one and I always think, you know, what happens to all these brews? They just get tipped down the drain and like if some stuff goes wrong or you it's not perfect and

you know, what happens to them? Does everyone just forget about them? Um and then this popped up and I was like, This is really interesting. So yeah, taught taught me through that and I mean I imagine there's such a process you go through with new product development and and w like you say when you were reinventing those classics like Redback Um, what inspired you to do Rejected Ale? Yeah, absolutely. So Going back the the original IL was that that beer that we had thought would be Matilda Bay.

And and that was that was the whole point of the business and the whole point of the brewery. So it was the first year we started brewing here when we built the brewery and and of course we were doing two things and two quite tricky things, A setting up a brand new brewery with brand new equipment with brand new brewers. and trying to find the happy spot and how we were gonna run it. So of course that required lots of trying. And brewing and fermenting and going Bit crap. Tipping it out.

Um, brewing commanding, going again. Harry, I imagine your bit crap was probably someone else's oh spawn. Well Yeah, okay. Okay. Um well that that we'll we'll get to that bit. And um And then of course the other bit was that we were trying to brew a beer that was a you know traditional English

summer beard, English pail, little bit of Australian pail thrown in there too, so it it's it's not just a it's not just a pale out, it's um it's a really complex, subtle, um, malt driven, quite a big, luscious beer and and based in in history and the in in the English industry where they've got a lot of practice, so it's not an easy bit of replicate. So all of those things together

made it that we were doing a lot of brews to get this beer right. And, you know, one would come through and it would be pretty good and we'd all look at it and go, yeah, but But what about this little this little edge or this little hole that the the palate or the nose has got and how can we fix that? And And we we looked at it and we went back once we sort of set the recipe in stone, which was probably a year and a half after we started brewing, and we'd done

We'd done something like 27 beers and and that was the number we used for the the campaign. So working working with James, we decided that actually that's a pretty cool story to tell. It's not really a story of rejection and and then that's it. It was a story of perfectionism and and trying to get to where we wanted to be with the you know standards of Phil. Well he was the name of it and and me of course. So we came back and went, well, what

What can we do to to showcase this? And the the answer was to go back and brew something. And look at the old recipes and and put it together and you know, knowingly that it had a couple of holes but that the beer was still good and then package it and and market it. So the campaign was that we had these twenty seven rejected brews. and and we packed them and would send them out and you could look at them next to the final brew of the owl and see see the journey we went on, essentially. And see

where we went wrong and how we went wrong and there were some pretty funny stories about how that was all discovered on the on the sides of the cans. And then and then where we got to and and what what that process could lead to. Which is a, if I may, goal winning uh Oh yeah, keep plugging. James is gonna love you and she's gonna be like, Yes, go on, Harry. Exactly. No, I thought th I totally with you. I thought it was such a fascinating insight into the process and

And just like a an indicator of how open the industry is about, you know, this is what it looks like to make beer and it ain't easy. It doesn't come out perfect every time. Um, but we try and we want it to be perfect. Um so yeah, no, that was wonderful and I expect

Huge things for you now, Harry. Um I want some more golds. Thank you very much. Um but no, thank you so much for coming on the Beer is a Conversation podcast, Harry Sexton. Um lovely to have you and hopefully not the last time. No, thank you so much for having me, Claire. CryMalt has been supplying the best ingredients to Australian and New Zealand brewers for 30 years. Their range of malt, hops and yeast is sure to take your beer to the next level.

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