Dr Tim Cooper - Coopers

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It was always part of the plan to put a brew in, but for many years it it was just a plan. It's a hundred percent acquisition of Green Beacon. No, we had a chat with everybody. Anyone would have seen this coming a mile away. It's always fun to get to think about beer.

Hi, I'm Bruce News Editor Matt KirkyGuard, and that's just what we're here to do talk about beer. This week I catch up again with one of my all-time favourite interviews, Dr. Tim Cooper. Quite apart from being the managing director of the hundred and fifty year old Cooper's Brewery and a wonderful bloke, Tim is one of those rare interviews that actually engages with the premise of a question and tries to actually provide an answer.

Believe me when I say that is quite a novelty in this game. For the listener, it means you will get much more out of the conversation with Tim than you ever expected and you'll get from anyone else. And that we do in this episode, as we learn whether Tim thinks that Coopers was too slow in moving to Cairns, how Coopers managed to stay relevant to new generations of beer drinkers, and also would Coopers ever consider buying a craft brewery? Spoiler alert, the answer is yes.

As you'll hear, the conversation went over time, and even then there were at least half a dozen threads to the conversation that I would have loved to pursue and have put on my list for next time, but just couldn't for time on this occasion. Even so, there is more than enough that we do discuss. So there is no need for my usual I hope you enjoy this. You absolutely will, but I'll be very surprised if you enjoy it quite as much as I did.

Tim Cooper, welcome to Beer Is a Conversation. Thank you very much, Matt. Good to be with you. I always look forward to the November results coming out of Cooper's because it really is a bellwether for how the industry's going and, you know, pulling out some of the industry trends and I wanted to talk to you about this year's because

I think that's truer than ever with the way that you've gone. So maybe w we could start by just uh you uh telling us how you've gone in this covert year uh w with the family company. Thanks, Matt. I mean we w it's been an unusual year with um some things which have been uh predictable and some things not. I mean clearly uh keg volume

was um significantly um uh impacted with COVID. Um but more so uh at to at the end of the previous financial year. So in those uh three months uh of FY twenty, uh um April, May, June, there was um uh a a big drop for everyone in KEG volume and of course that included um the breweries taking kegs back from the trade to help the trade g given that trade was was sh uh the pubs were shut.

So uh we although we had a little bit of a lift in keg volume relative to that year, it's still more than twenty percent down on the previous financial year. So Um I mean, it sounds silly to say, but we have to almost go back to two thousand and nineteen to see the what the impact on uh kegs has been. Um but keg volumes still remain about twenty percent lower than they were prior to COVID. So um as I say we had a a a little bit of a lift up

in keg volume in this FY twenty one year, I think it was three point seven percent up. Um and the PAC volume uh was also um up a little bit. Um but I think you know, what's been surprising is that Our sales did do um better than expected and I think some of that has been the fact that um you know, despite the g uh pubs being shut, the hospitality industry being severely impacted.

people were um uh turning their uh attention, their um uh their desire for a b a beer uh to pack um and um so the uh take home trade and uh um clearly we saw that in terms of uh increase or record um for us record sales of um packaged beer. And uh a significant increase in uh the percentage that cans

occupy in in that segment. Yeah, so I think it's it's it's so it's it's um a combination um as you're highlighting it's not only the fact that people were uh buying more uh take home beer um from the off trade, but also in our case uh they were turning more to uh cans. So historically uh Cooper's uh has had a a fairly weak uh position uh on canned beer um and uh historically um

Uh as you know, Matt, we were largely um uh s selling uh only lager beers in in cans. Uh if we go back to uh two thousand and four we introduced uh in aluminium cans for the first time, Dr. Timm's and also Mild Ale. Um we had in the sixties and seventies Um my father, uh Bill Cooper and and Maxwell Cooper had uh introduced uh as as young guns in the brewery, they introduced uh uh steel cans and of course in those days

cans were were steel and they were three piece. So they were you know, they came from um the supplier seamed at one end and then the brewery would seam the other end, but they were uh y y you may or may not remember them but they were very S strong cans like baked bean cans. Um This is one of the few times that I can actually say this and that was before my time. There you go. In terms of currently relevant trends, uh you know, it which says a lot about how long I've been kicking around.

But that's very i you know, very very interesting, do you think because it's only been in the last three years that you've really put some of the core range into can. Do you think that there'd been... sales in the years prior to that by being a little bit slower to the the the the uh adopt the can trend? Yes, definitely. Um uh we can say that categorically because MCOR had supplied cans. I probably I may or may not have told you this story, but they were desperately keen for us um to put

palele in uh um aluminium cans. And that and in actual fact they were also suggesting at the time in two thousand and three, uh Matt, that they were interested in us trying um steel drawn steel cans. So they were doing an experiment with um uh their plant in uh Western Australia and uh I think it converted one machine over to be able to do drawn steel. So uh in some parts of the world

instead of aluminium cans they use drawn steel. So they to all intents and purposes they seem the same as the aluminium cans, but they're actually made out of steel, uh but light light very lightweight steel. But

So anyway, uh getting back to the story, um, Amcor uh prevailed upon us to do another uh experiment. We'd tried before but been unsuccessful, but they asked us to try and again to put pal in cans and um when these can they said they'd provide the cans free of charge, when they turned up Um they had uh Doctor Tim's traditional ale um printed uh on them and I have a um one on my shelf here. uh behind me. Um uh uh just as as proof that uh it it wasn't um

my idea to uh uh call it that. Uh but it was actually Amcore's idea in order to try and uh keep me interested in the uh whole programme of trying to um eventually get naturally conditioned beer in cans. Of course the challenge that we had was um that the beer uh as you would know, the beer is uh relatively low in um carbonation when you

uh fill the can. So as they come off the line the the cans are uh easily dented because they're um there's no CO two uh or very little CO two in the beer to keep the um the the can um um firm. Um and so we had that consideration to contend with And also, uh, from the experiments we'd done before, we were anxious that the flavour of the palau wasn't exactly the same uh as the bottled palau. So

Um as such we we we did this experiment it it in two thousand uh late two thousand three I think it was. Um it turned out better than we expected, so we did another couple of experiments and then we we we used them for promotional events uh initially and then we started selling um the product Doctor Timm's. Um but we We had a lot of discussions um uh over the years um b between sales marketing and and operations um about whether it was a good idea to

convert over to uh calling the product parlay. Um and my colleague Nick Sternberg and I were a as brewers we were we continued to be somewhat anxious that people might consider that the flavour is a bit different. With with lager beers there's uh we can we can say um with great confidence that the flavour um uh profile between lager and a ca the same product

lager in a can versus a bottle is is i is is very, very similar and and probably impossible for anyone to tell the difference. But with the naturally conditioned beers there is a little bit of a difference and that's because um you know the the it's a it's a live product that the beer is the you know the ale is actually fermenting in the can and and we do think that because of the oxygen uh probably because of the oxygen environment that there's a little bit of Flavor different.

But uh I I've I've I've given a very long explanation uh to your question, but I think the the short answer is yes. Um, we definitely uh suffered uh as a result of not putting it not calling it parallel because once we did call it parallel, then pe particularly people interstate

uh were more prepared to buy the product. Um and uh uh w uh to tell you um the difference. I mean we were selling um about five thousand cases a month of Dr Timm's Um and we now sell um about sixty thousand cases a month. of uh pale ale and cans. So it's made a huge difference uh um uh to to the volume. Uh of course

some of that volume's taken away from the the bottles, but nonetheless additive uh you know, when you add the cans and the bottles it's we've seen a growth in in parallel. And and just I wanted to pick up on that little uh snippet about the the cans weren't pressurized because I remember when I inquired about this in the early twenty tens that that that was one of the challenges you had to overcome because from memory you couldn't stack the

the conditioning beer. Um high because There wasn't enough pressure to support the weight of the Packages above, is that correct? Yes. We we were certainly worried about it. We looked at uh we looked at it over an an an a period of time and and in the end convinced ourselves that providing we only did two We normally would stack um bottles three high, but um we only stack those pallets um two high. So it's a little bit it's it's less weight, um uh but but nonetheless.

um uh the important thing was to try and um protect protect the uh uh the the cans as much as possible um while while the um uh the yeast um uh continued to ferment and provide the CO two which which eventually after about two weeks or so um means that the cans are then uh fully um up to uh carbonation and and and feel quite firm to the touch. Hm. I I've followed the Doctor Tim's with interest and I think I had it for the first time in about two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine.

on a ferry to Kangaroo Island, I think it might have been. And, you know, have having it in the can, which I'd never seen before. I couldn't You know, my thinking was, Well, why don't you release this everywhere? And that was at the time that cans were just really starting to become quite a substantial thing in the US for the craft beer scene. Um You know, uh in in some ways Coopers went from having the opportunity to

be the fur you know, the the industry leader here, um, to be, you know, one of one of the last um, you know, craft breweries to put beer in cans. W w do you think that was a lost opportunity for Cooper?

I think it it was a lost opportunity, but having said that, I think we were nonetheless I mean well Uh we we we'd we'd done the Dr Tim's w when we introduced mild, um we did make uh with with Glenn Cooper we made the decision that we would put the mild in cans at the same time as bottles because we thought Because we were introducing a new product

Um, Matt, we could say, Well, uh, you know, you you decide as as consumers you decide if you think that you prefer one versus the other and mild ale took quite a w a while to to grow. I I think in a way it's a little bit similar to Great Northern. I mean I think that started off slowly and then and and it's become a startling success. Um uh but um Maldale um seemed to benefit from the uh uh from the sponsorship that we had with the with the V eights, the supercars.

Um but I think we you know, we were just anxious uh about this whole process of naturally conditioning in cans and uh apart from say um maybe some craft brewers uh uh we didn't think uh anyone else in the world was really doing it way back then, uh, in in two thousand four. I I asked um our colleague at um Sierra Nevada about when they introduced naturally c conditioned beer in cans and I think

They they only started in about two thousand and seven or thereabouts. So um uh I think w you know, we feel that we were one of the earliest to do it and I think even the Europeans uh who make naturally conditioned beer or um what they call refermentation beer. Uh I don't know that there are many examples of of those in cans. So And I believe that even Little Creatures here that does do bottle condition

They do live conditioning but not in their can since they introduced. So uh it it seems to have been something that even they weren't willing to, you know, uh to to to take the leap at.

Yes, yes indeed. Yes. So I think I think there's there there's just that anxiety about the fact that um you know the cans are relatively weak and um uh um you know you have to pr pr keep them fairly well protected until But I I agree with your uh uh re when you ask the question, I agree with your point that I mean what we have benefited from is uh is because the craft industry has so graciously um uh embraced the idea of uh beer in cans, um I think that's helped us uh enormously because

uh you know, historically in Australia, Cannes um uh uh unfortunately had a uh a bit of a bogan kind of image because um you know m much of the beer that was sold in cans was sort of uh lower priced volume products sold in thirty packs, you know. So, um I think uh uh you know it was sort of cans were seen to be, you know, consumed by the the more more the The bigger drinkers or the

the the beer drinkers who really enjoy their beer. Um and so um w uh I think um premium uh the premium cues of glass were there for quite strong because um you know uh uh you know there was Crown Lager and g in glass and and and many

you know, premium products in glass, um, uh European or the international gears uh for instance in glass. So therefore, you know, you've got these uh um cues, market cues, um uh favoring a premium uh uh uh a concept of premium in glass and um non premium or everyday or uh or you know cheaper cheaper end of the spectrum in cans. But I think That has f uh fortunately changed with the um craft sector embracing uh cans as a as a good uh package for beer.

I I was also taken I hadn't realized that it was the release of Mild Ale that a that had uh given you the the the the space to introduce them simultaneously because I w again I'd always been under the impression that that was a beer that had almost been released for the Cooper's sponsorship of the uh of the of the racing uh cars which people need to have cans, um

to to to to drink at some of those events. And uh I I I'd not realise that it was uh actually the luxury of releasing a new product that it lets you do the dual format and not just the focus on the uh on on these the super V eight.

Ab absolutely and I think the um uh the the mile did precede uh our sponsorship of the supercars by about five years or so. I think we got uh we had I think eleven years of sponsorship of the V uh of the supercars and um So I think we started in two thousand and nine, so I think uh uh uh oh two thousand nine or ten, but uh uh so we w it preceded by a few years, um uh mob preceded by a few years. But uh th but what we did see is uh a big uptake.

in in of mild with the supercars and as you say, uh because of many of the events, um, mid strength. beers were required. Is there much pressure o obviously consumers have adopted the format and in there there's certainly uh like a generation of consumers. I d I'm old enough to still just prefer the feel of glass um on my lips if I do drink from the package as opposed to cans. But the younger you go, um, the the the less entrenched that is.

Um so there's obviously a lot of consumer demand, um particularly amongst a younger um crowd. But how much retailer pressure is there, uh, on a business like Cooper's to have the um can format to be consistent on the shelves with uh w w with all of the other packages that uh are out there? Um I think the retailers to be honest will favour having both formats if the brand is strong enough. Right. Um so uh in our case uh that that

um safely covers um uh pale ale and sparkling ale. Um and then uh some of the other products um you know we we have to uh you know, say with our lager beers which, you know, historically uh even though uh w uh we think uh the world of um Coopers Dry and and and its predecessor Coopers Clear um and uh products uh like our light and so forth and our our lager, although we don't have a

uh Cuba's lager at the moment in in package. Um, you know, they're all good products, but they they struggled to compete with the mainstream products um of of the um of the two big brewers and so um where there's not uh deemed to be enough volume um going through

um uh being processed uh, you know, in in in the stores, then um quite often the retailers will say, you know, they would uh prefer just to have the bottles and not the cans, um, unless it's uh unless it is a uh canned only um variant of course. And how about uh some of your newer products like the Pacific Ale and the XPA? Do they Skew more heavily towards cans or are they

Yes they did. And and so XPA we deliberately only released in Cannes. Initially we were only gonna do um uh what was sessionale in cans and then um uh our our sales teams the the CANS have done but with both Pacific Parallel, uh the rebadged Pacific Parallel and the XPA have done extraordinarily well for us. So, you know, we often um i one of the questions that you know I think you you m you have asked me in the past is, you know, w would we

ever be interested in in buying a you know a a craft brewer. Uh uh you know, we often reflect that you know, we could pay quite a bit of money for, you know, two or three million litres of deer uh per annum from a craft brewer. Um but

we can l launch a product like XPA or launch a product like uh Sessionale and we get two or three million litres of beer just with that added uh variant, you know. So uh it's uh it's an easier way for us providing we providing our marketing uh sales and marketing colleagues can you know guide us as to what what's likely to be successful and that's that's the uh that's the trick of it. Point there because I know this week you launched your

distribution rights for Ibisu. Um the the Japanese if I'm pronouncing that correctly and I'll uh Oh yes, yes, yes. Abyss. Yes. It's it's tricky to say Abis yes. Because the the Y is uh the the Y is silent and the U is silent. I can stop disgracing myself in Japanese restaurants now. Thank you for that. But yeah so you you have um over the years had partnerships with a number of international brands um to to distribute them which I would imagine augment

the full portfolio that you're able to take to market um to to to to get ranging and tap points. But What what what's the difference between Cooper's distributing some of those brands and perhaps, you know, adding on um p you know and I I don't mean to t to be rude here, but maybe a a younger Hipper domestic craft brand um to to the Cooper's portfolio. Uh I uh uh again, uh really good question. Uh the I think um we we ponder the international um uh additions

uh when when the main product has has done well and s in this case the poro's done well. We we more recently this year also

brought out a five hundred mil can of Sapporo as a as a trial, which seems to have gone well. Um Ebus is uh a premium Sapporo product and um uh initially we were told that we couldn't have it, but um as as our sales of Sapporo have grown over the years, um our Sapporo colleagues in Japan have decided that it would be good for us to to uh bring in Evis as a as a premium uh uh Japanese product, premium Saporo product.

But I think we'll we'll continue to reflect on on the craft sector, but I think we we we feel that um we're of a scale that means that you know we would prefer to focus on

uh the brands that are going to be synergistic in terms of uh you know making a difference in volume. So um I suppose because Sapporo is a reasonably big brand for us and Carlsberg has been as well. Um you know, we we we'll focus on on how we can improve our performance with those

to international brands. Um and I I think we just feel that um the addition of craft craft brands is is hard work and I think th w you know, where the craft um uh brewers do well is that they uh are able to promote their own product um in in the local region uh um very well and they y you know, there's a lot of pa passion and in and energy.

in getting behind the products and you know what we see generally is when when these the when the craft brewers uh you know p when they sell to bigger brewers, uh s you know, sometimes the that success is not translated through to the bigger brewer because of course uh uh you know, um one

peop some people regard it as being um uh uh you know a process of selling out. Um and so therefore they decide they're not going to s support, you know, the craft brewer anymore and and and you've also potentially lost depending on what the arrangement is, you've lost the the the passion and enthusiasm and the energy of you know, the founders of the brewery. You don't think that with Cooper's reputation you know, Cooper's occupies a very different place to the big two multinationals Yeah.

you know, reputation and values that are just universally accepted in the market would prevent that from happening, you know, that that that sort of loss of reputation if you did buy a small er I would have almost thought you'd lend a little bit of light to them. Yes, it's an interesting concept and something which perhaps we should...

think about. I I know um is talking like this did well Mark Gourmy is uh national sales um manager. Uh he he has uh he's often pondered whether we should you know, uh we we had this uh company premium beverages, which we is now fully incorporated within Coopers, so all our salespeople are are now badged as Coopers. I mean they were always seen as Coopers, but of course it operated for a long time as a separate company.

premium beverages. But, you know, he's he's often pondered aloud in in in a way similar to what your asking that, you know, perhaps we should have a specialist, you know, sales team that focuses on uh craft um um you know, craft products. And and that was You know, he was particularly thinking along those lines when we had Brooklyn. So we we uh you know, a few years ago um Mark made the decision to um uh team up with uh Brooklyn. Um so we um

uh he and I went there I think probably th three times and Camp Pierce as well. Um and uh you know, we developed quite a good relationship, um with the team at Brooklyn. Um and uh it was just um happenstance that unfortunately uh they decided to uh sell um twenty five percent of their shares to Kieran and um and then the distribution

uh subsequently was taken away from us. But Um, you know, uh I'm only uh g getting that little bit of background because on on the basis of that uh success that we were having with the Brooklyn um uh portfolio

Mark was thinking that perhaps we we could extend that to include other uh craft um um products. So it's it's not something that we haven't discussed, it's it's something which we've We've done it in a small way and which we may do again, but uh uh it's not sort of front of mind just at the moment.

Okay. And I guess in the meantime the the craft breweries are certainly uh for for want of a better term, your research and development um department in a way because you're able to see what is working well for them uh in in in the case of the Session Ale or the now the Pacific Ale and the X P A to see styles that have some traction and you you can incorporate those into w with the Cooper's twist, in in into your portfolio.

Absolutely. Absolutely right. And um, you know, I give the example of XPA, um, I think Cam Pierce uh is our marketing and inva innovation director. uh Nick and myself and and Michael Shearer that you know he'd like us to consider this product uh or this type of product and come up with a suitable Cooper's

um uh uh beer uh with the XPA um label. And um so uh I think it was the following weekend uh or a couple of weekends later I I asked I took I drove to uh one of the local um large um Dan Murphy's and um with my wife and um She said, Why are we here? And I said, I'm I'm we're gonna take a trolley around and we're gonna grab all the XPAs. and then I'm gonna take them back to the brewery and we're gonna taste them all and just see what what do other brewers think of this um uh name

XPA. What what what do they what what are they putting um what what products are they producing and naming XPA? So there was a little bit of a range um but but certainly all of the most of the products had you know quite h uh f uh you know, good hop character, many of them dry hopped and uh um uh and of course uh you know, with a bit of uh extra bitterness as well.

Um so uh anyway I think we've made quite a a nice uh variant which um now um Barbara enjoys drinking herself so uh uh it's good that um uh we can make a beer that my wife enjoys. So she can see the benefit of the Cooper's research of being part of that research. At the same time, there is a, you know, the the the Cooper's yeast is a very distinctive element of both of those beers, which uh really gives it that Cooper's house style.

Yes, I think I think that that's that's something which, you know, we see as a positive because the the the Cooper's yeast, particularly the variant that we selected. uh as you and I have discussed, you know, back in ninety nine we selected um one of the um two strains that came out of the mixed um strain that we when I first joined the brewery we had mixed culture which had been in continuous

um um propagation uh since nineteen hundred and ten. Well that's that's as far back as our records went. So um the uh uh it would have been the second generation uh Coopers were uh uh brewing with this some kind of similar to uh the the the yeast um that we were using in the nineties when I when I joined the brewer in nineteen ninety, uh that you know, it it's been in continuous

uh propagation for eighty odd years at that stage. So but we we selected a single strain from that um and then in ninety nine transferred all production over to uh using this single strain. But this single strain was the estuary one. Um the other strain that we had um was more sulfury and less estuary, um whereas this one um is nice and estery and less sulfury. So

Um, it was it's made a difference. I mean, we th we think it makes the the the ales um uh a a pleasure to drink, um, because it sort of adds to the refreshing uh character of the beer. Um uh But uh you know, so as you say, uh it is quite distinctive, um but and and it's not going to be the the taste for everyone, but um fortunately for us it's you know um seen as a good good flavour for for many

By many consumers. Mm. And a and do you do you track um You know, demographics a around your consumers? Because I d I I remember speaking to you probably close to fifteen, sixteen years ago and talking about the Cooper story and you know, there there was uh an element in the eighties when Coopers became the beer that was the opposite of what

that generation's dad's drink and so it developed a you know, like a a coolness about it for then. But, you know, that was my generation and now my children uh you know at the stage. Does Cooper's, you know, have that challenge itself now of staying relevant to a younger drinker? I think so. Uh well, I think we have to keep on uh reinventing ourselves. So uh we have to keep on reinventing ourselves, um

uh from a marketing perspective. Um uh Kate Dowd, our marketing manager works with uh uh Cam Pierce. Kate has uh with um uh quite a lot of research work um um we we now uh has uh have as our marketing uh slogan forever original. But you know there's she's putting a lot of uh work into thinking how we uh keep ourselves relevant to the next generation of beer drinkers and um you know, we we know that many of our loyal drinkers um are now per perhaps in their forties and fifties.

Um so we need to keep on recruiting people in their twenties um and thirties so that we don't face that same issue that we we Uh, you know, that my father when he joined the brewery back in nineteen sixty Uh, he was concerned that uh and and as was the third generation, both those generations were concerned that the number of ale drinkers and stout drinkers would drop off.

um and then they would uh go out of business. So hence why they got into lager production at the end of the nineteen sixties. So we I think it's it's fair to say, Matt, that we do have to keep on reinventing ourselves and make sure that we keep ourselves relevant to the next um generation of consumers. But I think it you know, uh just as we've discussed, having the products like Pacific Palel and XPA um uh and more recently we did the uh Hazy IPA last year and the Aussie IPA this year as

as seasonal variants. Um uh you know, seasonal uh beers. Um I think they add a bit of interest and and hopefully uh you know uh give the opportunity for a new group of um uh beer lovers to try our beer and and hopefully become attached to it. Are you gonna continue to use some of these emerging craft tested styles because there was a period with the Thomas Cooper's range and things where

you were developing your own styles um o of beers and they didn't quite have that market presence that perhaps you know Pacific Parallel has. Do you think you'll work

look at developing things in house or you keep an eye on what's happening in the craft space? I think we do. I think we need to see, yeah, what's happening in the craft space, what's happening in the market generally. I mean we're we're you know, where uh it's it's very interesting to see how well some of these sort of um how how how the mid strength market's continuing to grow and

you know, w these these beers which are very neutral in flavour have done remarkably well and yet at the other end of the spectrum, you know, the the craft sector continues to flourish with, you know, much stronger flavoured products. So I think we we do need to keep watching

uh what's happening generally in the market. Um and you're dead right. I mean we tried in the nineties without a lot of success we tried with about five different products um filtered ales, thinking that that might be the way for us to uh progress but um those filtered ales didn't really catch on particularly well. You know, what what has I mean, obviously the parallel really uh grew on the back of um

the opening up of the South Australian market. So when Lyon took over South Australian Brewing in nineteen ninety three, they made the excellent decision for us. um to sell all the pubs. So they had a tighter state. South Australian Brewing had a tighter state of about one hundred and twenty pubs. And from ninety four to ninety nine I think they're about uh through this Manco agreement they sold the pubs to the publicans. And that meant that the publicans could put our beer on tap.

and and it was just we'd only just i introduced um palale and kegs in nineteen eighty nine. So nineteen ninety four onwards then saw this huge growth in in pale ale. Um and I think it was about ninety eight that Pale Ales overtook sparkling owl because up until that stage sparkling owl had been our biggest product. Um and so uh we've we've had Success almost unwittingly, uh I mean, you know, you obviously have to work hard for success, but you you also have a have a bit of good luck at times.

And that was a bit of serendipity for us that that's what happened in the South Australian market and then Subsequently we uh developed our own sales team outside of South Australia in two thousand and three, starting premium beverages uh as a new business and and then we saw a a huge growth in in our products outside of South Australia having our own sales representation. So

But I think, you know, we we can't stop. We have to keep on thinking, we have to keep on seeing what others what others are doing, what what how uh taste profiles are changing. I mean who would dream that, you know, uh say thirty years ago that um uh a significant part of the market, say, you know, ten percent uh of the m of the the beer market, uh uh beer category is uh m more strongly flavoured uh beers, you know, in in terms of the hoppy beers and the

the the craft beers and our ales and so forth. I mean we've grown from one percent of the market to five percent of the market, which is fantastic. And, you know, the the the craft beers you know represent another five percent of the market. So

Uh it's it's um a fantastic change over a period of time. It is, and you gave me about half a dozen things I would have loved to threads I would have loved to have pulled apart in that answer, but uh I'm very conscious of time. So I'll we'll just uh ask one.

How does doctor Tim Cooper feel about Like the hazy IPA. It's it's certainly you know Hayes is a part of Cooper's DNA with the cloudy but fine um you know, campaign, but How do you feel about the taste of some of these new styles that are coming out the juicy and hazy IPAs? Yeah, you're you're very insightful, um, Matt. I I uh when when that idea came up, uh I I just laughed'cause I said Um to my colleagues.

Why why would we do hazy IPA? Because our beers are already hazy. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why won't people just say, Oh no, why would Coopers do that? That seems illogical. Um And then the answer was, although... We need to make it more hazy. And I said, Well, we can certainly do that, but is that what we want to do? Um anyway, I I think we came up we we did use um uh some wheat malt um and we did use some uh uh raw barley.

uh unmalted barley as well. So we you know, we deliberately changed the grist to make it so that the the wort was going to be hazier than normal wort uh uh in the brew house.

Um and uh and then really our focus was to make sure that we selected um uh nice uh American hop which uh we thought would sort of um uh I think it was uh a tart and Strap we chose and you know the a nice combination of hops and with dry hopping, uh, make a product that we were happy to drink ourselves and that's always a key point, you know, we've got to be

happy to drink them drink the beer ourselves and I think we achieved that. I think our marketing colleagues may have been a bit disappointed in me that it wasn't as juicy uh in uh colour um that that they they wanted. But anyway, I think it it worked well and and the people

you know, a number of people have said to me that that it's a shame that it's now finished because um, you know, they like the flavour of it. So I think it's something for us to uh uh think about for a a future um Uh release uh is to pre bring back a a a product like similar to the Hazy IPA. But of course, you know, we we also reflected that it was, you know, like a New England IPA um uh you know so s sort of

f fairly hoppy and and and uh you know good uh dry hopping character but without the you know perhaps the bitterness of um uh some of the West Coast uh IPAs. Of course, of course. The last question I want to ask from the results was

One of the things that really leapt out at me and it was right at the very end was that you conducted a a a share buyback recently, um, at a price of four hundred and twenty five dollars a share. That must have been Uh you know, a a a fairly nice figure when you think of the lion takeover was around two hundred and ninety dollars. You know, and that's a I I think that's a tenfold increase in the buybacks that were taking place around that time.

In tur in terms of the price, do you mean? Mm. In terms of the share price. No, no, you you're you're right. Um we did do a uh share buyback in two thousand and three at forty five dollars. Um and

Uh you know, that was based on a um based on a um expert valuation or valuation done by the um uh chartered accountants uh accountancy firm. Um I think uh you know in retrospect uh uh i you know, even though it was um you know, done at uh arm's length and done by um uh expert valuers, it it does it it probably didn't fully reflect the uh future um earnings potential of of of Cooper's uh, you know, as as as we you know, as was seen at the time. Um but probably you know, I mean I remember when

the you know, that number came out. Uh prior to that the the shares had traded at I think sixteen dollars and twenty seven cents or something. So It was a big you know, we were shocked when it went up to forty five dollars and of course then uh then uh uh then uh with the Lion Nathan takeover offer of s two hundred and sixty dollars.

Um uh it was and that was only two and a half years later. Um it was another big jump up again. Admittedly, of course, our volumes had grown quite a lot in the meantime. Uh so it is uh as you reflect, nice to see it up at four hundred and twenty five dollars. Um th we have bought back a number of shares

uh since the Lion Nathan battle. Um so it's not uh although it it does mean that the the company is valued more than at that time back in two thousand and five, it's not quite as dramatic as as the share price indicates because we have bought back

percent of the shares. I think it's about thirty odd percent of the shares in that time frame. So Can I ask the incredibly vulgar question in in in in a way of what that values the busin the entire business at? And I'm I'm just asking because I I'm bear in mind the recent sale of stone and wood and some of the figures that were bandied around for that.

Yeah. Um well it gets it closer to five hundred million, not quite five hundred million, but closer to five hundred million, just but but we have to and we d d we do discuss this a little bit internally. we have to reflect that this is for small parcels of shares trading hands in what's an illiquid market. So, you know, because the shares can't be sold outside of the um the existing shareholder base.

It means that there's a discount for um uh you know, when when the experts look at a share value under those circumstances they say, Well, it has to be discounted because it can't actually be sold on the open market. So uh it suffers a discount as a result of that. And on the flip side, uh, Matt, if the company was, you know, uh w when we faced the hostile takeover bid um in two thousand and five

you know, you get a uh a takeover premium often which is I think quoted to be about thirty percent. So um, you know, clearly stone and wood have have, you know, in their in their pricing uh is a there's a is a takeover premium. In other words, the the the the company that you know, is wanting to buy the other company pays a thirty percent premium because they get control of the whole company. So as opposed to a

small parcel of shares changing hands. But you you under you understand all of that. Yeah, but e even with the uh thirty percent premium i i if if you look at the valuations,'cause the five hundred million is the number that's been bandied about and I'd have no

knowledge of how accurate that is or whether it's just uh just the medium. Um, but Stone and Wood is a quarter of the size of of of Cooper's, so I i is there any fear that shareholders might start looking at some of those numbers and I think they they're the I think their volume's a quarter but I think their E but da um our E but uh da is only uh twice theirs and I think I think that's um because

uh Stone and Wood have been uh tremendously successful in getting their beer on tap, you know, particularly in New South Wales and Queensland. So um I think that strive to improve our performance. I think we you know on the industry data we have um something like you know a a bit over three and a half percent of the tap volume but we have

you know, closer to six percent of the package volume. So we per we we outperform on the package front but underperform on the keg front and it's it's all a matter of, you know, getting ourselves in front of the publicans and trying to convince them one way or another to put put Coopers on tap. But but there is a lot of uh a lot of choice, a lot of um competition and um it's not as easy as

one might one might think. But anyway that that's getting off topic. I would have loved to have explored with you about because Cooper's was always that one independent tap and Stone and Wood sort of came to that but I'm very conscious of time. So um uh and I we have a habit of going well over time uh when we when we sp uh speak Tim. So th th the one question I will ask is

Uh yes. What's your future? Um because you you you've been at the helm of the company for a while. We've started to see the sixth generation come in. Um yeah wha wha what are your plans? Um, well I turned sixty five this year. I I I've s said to my colleagues, look, I'll I'll certainly do another couple of years if if they're happy to have me around. Um and um uh we do have um a couple of the uh sixth generation members of the family in the business, um Glenn's son Andrew and my daughter Louise.

um and there probably will be more in the future. But there is there is quite a big intergenerational gap. So that's uh uh thought provoking. Um but uh Hopefully, Matt, I'll continue to carry on you know, providing the health is okay and you know g keep my uh beer consumption in in moderation, which I I aim to do, which I think is good for health. surgeon uh saying that, so I think we can take that for granted. You're you're very generous.

I didn't ever become qualified so I I have to sort of hasten to add that, you know. Ma maybe unr un unreliable, although I believe it. Um but uh yes, I know hopefully if if health um being okay, then uh perhaps I can uh certainly do another couple of years and um uh uh and you know, we're over that time we'll have to keep thinking on um how how the future for

uh the management in in the business looks uh as we go forward. Um well I I I certainly hope you do and hopefully that means we'll also get to uh have w one more at least one more uh on on on Mike uh chat for for for the podcast, uh but before you do so. Before I do get any angry uh messages from uh Leanne, I will say, Dr. Tim Cooper, it's always a pleasure and thank you very much for your time. Oh no, thank you, Matt, and sorry, I my my answers are often too long and uh

Uh, that's why we go over time. So it's not you at all, it's me. Thanks for all your interest.

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