Beer is a Conversation: Doug Donelan

Hi, I'm Bruce News Editor Matt Kirkigaard and thanks to your malt mates at CryMalt, this is Beer is a Conversation. Beer is a conversation is our weekly sit down with some of the people who make the beer industry the interesting and dynamic thing that it is. And through these conversations we dig a little deeper into the stories behind the business of beer and brewing.

And that is exactly what we are doing today, with a very deep dive into the industry and the stories behind it as we chat with Doug Donalan, who recently retired from his role as CEO at New Zealand Home. After a varied career that included falling in love with homebrew, Doug got his start as an apprentice brewer under Chuck Hahn at the original Hahn Brewery in nineteen ninety nine.

He saw the triumphs, learned a lot, and also saw the challenges that saw the brewery eventually go into receivership before being purchased by two. Deciding to stay on, Doug worked in product development roles before being tapped on the shoulder to rejoin Chuck as Chuck launched what we now know as the James Squire brand at the Molt Shovel Brewery. He worked there in the early days of Australia's craft brewery renaissance before spending the last thirteen years as head of New Zealand High.

In a similar vein to our chats with Jamie Cook and Phil Sexton, this is a wide ranging chat that looks at the modern evolution of beer and the rise of craft brewing, as well as the development of the New Zealand hop industry. It is a fascinating chat and one that could have gone on and on. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Doug Donalan, welcome to Beer is a Conversation. Uh thanks Matt. It's good to catch up with you. Yeah, Matt look uh uh uh just to give the listeners uh a bit of a uh a background to this chat, we caught up uh uh brew on um back in September and it was just after Jamie Cook had announced his uh stepping back from the Stone and Wood business uh to coincide with his sixtieth birthday. And as as we were chatting, uh, you'd sort of commented that you'd heard that and uh

Th there are certain parallels between uh you and Jamie. Uh in fact you and Jamie have your birthday on the s on the same day, you both turned sixty and for your sixtieth birthday you announced that you were uh stepping back from your role as uh that New Zealand hop.

Yeah, that's correct. I um I turned sixty on the ninth of August, the same as Jamie, um, which is a bit of a laugh really, and then um Yeah, I g I got to the end of August and coming into September and um I was at Brecon where we BrewCon was pretty much my last official sort of outing or as a representative of New Zealand Hops I've stepped aside as the uh chief executive and had had officially finished up on the thirtieth of August.

Um after I'd been I'd been at the home there for um twelve and a half years. And and before that had a fairly extensive brewing career. So we we might go back and talk a little bit about how you how did you first come to be in the brewing industry?

Um, I've had a fairly um checkered um uh career, I I would say. I've there's been lots of things that I've been involved in and uh and I've done. Um Before I left school, I was working pretty much full time for McDonald's, of all people. But uh I I think probably from a brewing perspective, um my brother Matt um turned up at our family home.

with the Cooper's work kit back in about nineteen seventy six, I guess. Um and uh it was a matter of um he and I cutting the corner off a plastic bag and a bag in box and dipping some yeast into it and um and putting the box aside and letting it ferment for a week or whatever the period was and then bottling it off and and um so started into home brewing.

Prior to that um we had sort of goofed around a little bit. I was I'd made some um fruit wines, fermentation, um baking and all that sort of yeast. had always been a um quite a fascination for me when I was growing up. And I I I guess um beer probably more more importantly, it was something that um I liked um from the very first moment I tasted it, which I was probably Um yeah

ten or eleven maybe. Um I can't really remember. But um I do know that um when there were whenever there was celebrations, there wasn't a lot of beer around in my house as a kid growing up, but at celebrations and things there'd always be beer around and

you know, you'd either sneak a taste of some or an uncle would give you a glass for a taste of it and you know, I just I I just liked it. I really liked it immediately and um it's always held a a real fascination for me so started high and brewing, um back back in the um the seventies and uh

we were um big on we were even at that point we were big on um not necessarily locally brewed beer as much as um if we could get our hands onto any imported beer. So if if if a bottle shop was stocking something like Touborg or Karlsberg elephant beer or anything like that, it was always something a little bit special that we would turn up so It was always just um something that um I've always had an interest in and and a real passion for.

But I guess you know, a lot of us start with uh you know an interest in beer, um in i in the drinking of it, but you went from even doing the the the very early home brew. uh in into a brewing profession. What was yeah, and and that was before the craft beer movement, it was before um you know that there were a lot of breweries that gave you the option to start brewing. What was your progression from you know being a uh you know a a beer drinking student to uh being a professional brewer?

My brother and I w travelled in the US back in um eighty nineteen eighty six. And we knew that when we were going to go there we were going to but one of the things was that we were going to look for beer to drink because we were you know, it was part of um what we were into. we hadn't really realised what we're going to find when we got there and um I I I always told people the big turning point for me was um arriving in San Francisco and um and tasting um anchor liberty.

for the first time and it's sort of It was one of those moments where the light bulb came on and and I've just really thought, wow, this is this is really something different than anything I've um tried before and and the fact that it was coming from what was a relatively small brewery. Um and it sort of sparked some interest.

Um and then we travelled around we we visited um the very beginnings of the Sierra Nevada Brewery in in Chico and we Chico became our base for a while while we were in the States and we travelled up into Portland and Oregon and We got over the East Coast and Samuel Adams was starting up in um over in the New England area and we we travelled around and came back from the States after a a fairly extended trip.

And um both my brother and I were thinking, you know, um it'd be really cool if we could get into brewing somehow. Um but h how do you do it was uh was the thing because it was fairly um it was new and nobody was really doing it um so much at that time. Um the Lord Nelson in Sydney was sort of um kick kicking along and um Shah's uh little brewery in Picton um was around and we sort of became part of, I guess, a push in in Sydney at the time, the Eastern Suburbs um Homebrew Club.

was a was a a center of sort of um you know, w I I guess we were f the forerunners to what the big geeks are, um today, but um to get in we had to we had to have some sort of a qualification. So both my brother and I went back to school. We took we went to City Technical College and did food sites, um during that process uh we had already we had continued to home brew all the way through um and there was some really good beers around coming through at that time. And I read back

had come out of Matilda Bay. Um, probably the benchmark beer for me at that time was um Matilda Bay Pills. Um, though one of the first um guys

to actually start using or tell you that they were using German hops, um, Hello Chal hops. We we really didn't have much in the way of any hops available to us as home brewers at that point, you know, we were trying to work with part of Ringwood and um cluster if we could get it and and so ha all of a sudden more exotic um materials became available to us. uh full mash malting, uh full uh mash brewing and and buying imported hops and being able to try and so try and produce beer.

Going to technical college, um, learning about the process, um, hanging out with brewers, um The the Pump House Brewery was operating um in Sydney at the time as well and you could go down there and do brewery tours and hang out and talk to people about beer and we ran the home brew competitions. And eventually we came out, um my brother got a job with um the hard run company in Camperdown.

was away doing some volunteer work. So what year would that have been roughly?'Cause I think Chuck started that around about nineteen eighty eight. So that was around ninety nineteen ninety. So um yeah, it was around ninety ninety one that that period.

I was I was away and um I came back and I didn't know what I was going to do and my brother had already been working at harm and Um he came home one day and said, um, if you want a job at at the brewery, come down. Um, there's a job going for an assistant brewer. And um I turned up and um I just started what was in effect um an apprenticeship I guess. And and and also at that time I was um thirty. Um, I I had um you know, I we had studied as mature ad student

And so um came into it. What did you do before what what was your first job out of school? What were you doing while you were discovering this love of brewing studying the food science? Um and I sort of progressed from food, um, I became a I bec I got into um beverage service, um, restaurants, hotel management. Um, you know, I I was a Solomon. Um, I was uh You know, I worked at Rock and Roll venues, I drove taxis, I worked on the railways for a bit, um, I kicked around but

doing a lot of different stuff. You know, for all of it, food probably still is my number one passion. Um I really I I'm I'm really a food tragic. So, um I do all the cooking at home and um I make just about everything we eat at home um from scratch. It it's interesting you say that though, because a lot of people talk about the romance of beer which is i is a wonderful change in mindset, but at the same time

Making beer is much more like chefing, isn't it? Because you've got a set of ingredients and you've got an outcome that you want to achieve with those ingredients, um, whereas wine is a little bit more steering uh a a natural process. Yeah. Um, it it's interesting um in the fact that just about most of the guys that um I was brewing with and guys that I was have known throughout my career have all been um of the same mind when it comes to food.

And so a lot of the guys that I know, even who I stay in contact with, that I've brewed with over the years, um, we still swap recipes, um, we still share photos and talk about uh the sourdough that we're making or Um something that we've done um recently. Um You know, I've got a big thing. I love I actually love French food. Uh and um I I when I trained I actually trained in French Bestro.

Um, which, you know, it's it's all fat based sauces and uh uh having ingredients that you can make do four things in the kitchen and You know, it's um there there's not a lot of there's not a huge amount of finesse to it, but it's um it's just uh all about, you know, stocks and making great fur and and

The big thing I really love Italian food as well and um I run the the way that I I cook at home is that I actually run stocks. Um I've always got stocks that I've that I've that I'm using. Um I do a lot of prepare, I I make pasta from scratch. um raviolis and things like that. Um I've got a I've got a pass through machine. Um, yeah. So

Yeah, I and um ad oddly enough at the moment though, um I've got uh I've got plenty of brewing equipment in my shed, but I'm not actually doing any um brewing but it's something that I I really intend to get back into again. Um when I

So what was it about and it w we'll we'll come back to you when you joined the Hahn brewery, but what was it about making beer that was so addictive to you, um o over just drinking it. Yes, yes. Um You know, um for me Um it's always been able to perfect um lager. Uh there's something about making um a really, really good lager.

Um and you know, I I did it professionally. I've you know, we've we've I've I've made some I've I've been behind some great lagers. James Gryer Pilsner when we launched that in two thousand. um really was a beer that was out of the box. But prior to that, um, I did the pr the research and or the development work around the new or the relaunch of Heart Premium. which was another um another fantastic um lager but

I go back to what I said before about the Matilda Bay pills. Um for me when I first tasted that, that is what I wanted to make and I I spent a lot of time in my early home brewing.

um trying to um perfect it. And you know it wasn't that easy because you've got to get some really you've got to get some really good temperature controls around your mashing and you've got to have good temperature control around fermentation and an ability to store it for extended periods of time under refrigeration so you've got to have you've got to be set up for it and um well I actually um in a lot of places in my life I've been I have been set up um with refrigeration and

proper sort of home brewing setups where um we've made a lot of really, really high quality um home brew beer. So it's it's one of the things that's really driven me is that trying to get that the level of perfection you need to get around making um you know, making that perfect pills or um, you know, trying to emulate a uh a German Hellas or Munich Hellas.

So w when you did the f the the food science course. That obviously wasn't good. to brewing. There would have been very few brew if any brewing courses available uh for you to look at in those days. Yeah, it um it had a very small portion in there um around brewing. It had a small portion about cheesemaking, it had a small portion about wine making. Mm it had stuff around putting

food in the cans. I think most importantly about it was because it was applied science and the the Sydney Technical College has has been running um food science um and food technology courses for a long time. But a a lot of it um that I found most really important to have in that course was A lot of it was around how conveyors run, how bottling machines operate. Um How to how to select the right forklift for the right job. Um

heat exchangers, pumps, a lot of uh a lot of the engineering things that you you really need to understand the difference but and that's simple stuff. You really need to understand the difference between um centrifogical pumps and positive pumps and um you need to understand um heat coefficients and and a lot of things around heat exchange And that was all the stuff but you know, you you come away from that armed with all that knowledge, but you know, you've got to go somewhere and that's when I

I I said previously that I sort of like I I entered I I at the age of thirty, um I entered into an apprenticeship because Chuck Arnt took took us on and then we spent the next four years or how many years it was even longer than that because Chuck and I lived together for a long time. um learning learning the craft, you know, and we started out with having to, you know, y your job was to wash and fill care.

And you would do that all day and and um or you'd have to polish up the you'd have to polish up the copper in the brill house on when things were quiet. I'd get sent out because I had seller experience from my my hotel days, I'd be sent out um to do beer installations and beer line cleaning at at restaurants where we were trying to put the beer on tap and

um you know, you'd have a lot of face time with publicans and, you know, putting beer on for them and and all of that. So You just got it such a a w a wide ranging look at um not just the the brewery but the industry and also um you know, sitting around doing tastings um a and and look at the beers that we'd made that week and go back and look over the beers that we were going to package and

all the thought finding and developing your palate and and all the stuff that you learn. And um yeah, I I've I was really lucky to have landed where I did because it was just such a a complete grounding. Um the the brewery itself was a uh a sixty hectolitre um German configuration. Um it was probably the perfect brewery

to to learn on and and it continues today that brewery. Um there are a lot of people who are out and about in the industry in Australia today and and and around the world who actually um cut their teeth. on that um that brewing system which is uh that Chuck installed there at Camper now.

Tell us a little bit about that time at uh at at Hahn because I had a chat with Chuck recently and he was talking about the original Hahn premium. Um he did hope to establish that as a true pilsner, but he found that drinking you know, pallets in those days. A Pilsner was a little bit challenging for a beer that needed

you know, a a a reasonable volume throughput and uh market uh take up. Um and so the the the Hahn premium lager was a little bit uh of a step down from a Pilsner. Um but what was it like working in a brewery against the big guys in those early days, you know, you probably it wasn't even conceived as craft brewing then it was boutique brewing uh back in that day.

Yeah, and um it was it was an interesting time. Um there weren't many of us around. Um the pump house was operating at that time in Darling in Darling Harbour, um and it was probably a little bit bigger than what Hahn was. I I I I think size wise But uh w we actually did quite a lot of work together. Um we packaged beer for those guys at at one point and we used to sell we used to sell our high premium lager through their bar.

Um f finding taps was was quite difficult. Um there were certain there were certain places um where you know, h where there was an interest in in having a d a German style pills and that's what it was in effect, what Chuck was making was like a a North German Pills, hundred percent malt, um, it was hopped it was actually hopped with New Zealand hopes. Um

But it was uh it had light hopping in it. Um it was a it was really a a fantastic bear. But um yeah, for the market at the time it was probably a bit chewy. Um w we also produced a light bear. Um w uh hard premium light, um which was a um a two and a half percent um uh lager again. It it it had different hopping um than what the the premium had. But um yeah, trying to trying to get into the market um w wasn't easy. Um

Uh we had um you know w we had we we had significant um keg volumes at one point. I think we're doing something like about two hundred kegs a week across across the city, which was not a wasn't bad, but it wasn't enough. um, for the company to um pay down its debts because, you know, at at the time interest rates were quite high. Um and so w there was quite a large investment in that brewery as well when it was when it was put in.

And so um we ended up producing a beer which was more mainstream called Sydney Bitter. Um and it actually um we sold a lot of it. Um it was sort of like the twenty dollar carton um type beer. It it was a it was a really approachable, um good sessionable um blagger.

But unfortunately, um there was not much margin in it. So we were making we'll we were operating around the clock. Um, you know You be you you know, the brewery would start up at ten o'clock on Sunday night and it wouldn't shut down again until ten o'clock on Friday night. Um and we would just brew and package and brew and package and brew and package continually but

Um there was a lot of volume going through the door, but unfortunately there wasn't a whole lot of money coming back in the other in the other direction. So things got things got tough and tough and uh and tougher. And d uh we when you speak to Chuck, uh

uh about those times. I g I get the feeling that that was a really formative period of time for him because interest rates went up to seventeen percent in the recession that we had to have, um, and the business sounded like it was viable, but as as a as you say the bank wasn't able to be repaid with those interest rates and so they effectively forced a sale is i is my understanding.

Yeah, it went into um it went into voluntary receivership and uh that was actually quite big news at the time. Um you know, it made all the it made all the major news stories. Um it made the papers, um we had reporters and film crews crawling over the joint because

It had actually become fairly well established and th the the the sort of the boutique business um was actually beginning to flourish. Um and there were you know, it it looked like it was going to uh be something that um would continue to grow and um when it when it didn't, um, it was a bit of a shockwave because um

uh it it sort of it I I guess it sort of looked again as if like the big guys um were trying to keep the small guys out and you know that's always that's always a newsworthy story. And so We went into receivership and you know, we worked pretty hard during that time to try and trade out. Um, but in the end it just it just um became um just a l uh you know, a post too far for us to get to. So we ended up um being sold and and and uh two easy

um actually were the were the purchases. So and a lot of things changed from that point on. Mm-hmm. But it it's i in terms of how formative it was for Chuck's uh mindset. Um and I know you probably can't comment too much on his thinking, but i i it was Chuck um in a conversation about the Han uh brewing and looking at modern craft brewing.

terms like it's a unit cost business and you really have to look at the profit that you're making on every beer and you need volume and you know, hearing you describe that I can understand how that mindset um sort of w w would have come about when you sound how hard you were working and how much beer you're putting out and still not able to keep the business.

You know, I I couldn't tell you how hard we were working and it was it was it was incredible because everyone everyone who was working there at the time really pulled together and tried everything we possibly could. um to to get us through that point. Um But it you know, it it it I think the the big thing um for Chuck was that he he came out of it at the other end. Um luckily for him, um he got to keep his house.

So I I guess that was that was uh a a bonus for him because, you know, he actually had everything on the line. You know, he i it he had everything ev everything that he had he threw at that Um and he was I think he was quite fortunate as well, i is that he had a lot of people around him, myself um and others, my brother who was working there still and and a really um great crew of people um who continued to rally to ensure that we would uh

um, try and keep at at the best we could to try and keep it up and running. So we were out doing promotions and working on Saturday mornings um doing bottle shop tastings and um you know there was all sorts all manner of things um that we were turning up at to try and uh try and keep everything afloat but in the end i it just um it just wasn't to be.

But I I think it's um I think everybody I think everybody who was involved learnt quite a lot about um what it was what it means to run a small business, but not just a small business but a small brewing business because um they're fairly unique. in um in in how in what you need to do to to operate one. And I guess in those days it was only wholesale. You didn't have brewery tap rooms, you didn't have your own retail component uh that smaller breweries have now.

No, and um we were sort of um into the likes of um Uh, Lickoland. Um, you know, uh one of the one of the partners who had come into the business um was actually um the guy who s who established Lickoland. And so um we were you know, we ha we actually had um reasonable distribution. Um set up. We'd worked really hard on distribution, especially attack

Uh there was a lot of work had gone into um to tap you know, like Meet the Brewer Knights, we used to um we used to be out and about in Sydney all the time. And and it was quite funny because um it it there was uh really um uh a following for for independent uh beers and there were certain pubs in Sydney that were doing um specialty beers and uh and not just um not just having hard premium on tap

But um Bass was coming in at the time as well from from the UK and there were you know, there were places where you could go. and and and and um there were people around who were following it but un unfortunately it the the movement just wasn't big enough um to support the volume of beer that was required. Uh and we were making a lot of beer. Uh that that brewery was sized to produce around three million litres a year and we were really running it right up to that to that point. But um

Yeah, it's um we were putting a lot of beer out but um unfortunately the we just weren't banking enough to to cover all the costs plus um plus pay down the um down the line. So

So once you became part of the two E stable, what happened to the to the Molt dot well to to the Han brewing team? Um, you know, it was a it was a very, very funny um period of time because Um, you know, we were all we were all very, very uh staunchly independent, um and had had come up against um the big boys. Um part of the part of the reason that I actually got into into brewing or was driven was really around the whole independence and

and um and to try and make better beer than what the big guys were making. Um not that I had any real set against them, it's just that I didn't really think that much of their beers. Um, and that the whole idea was to try and make better beer and and that's what we wanted to do. We wanted to make better beer and so all of a sudden being part of

Um, this big brewing company um didn't sit well with some. Um, it it certainly didn't sit well with my brother Matt. He he left, he d he didn't want to work for them. Um, and so he he went off and there was a time when he and I were going to go into consultancy.

Um, we always we always really wanted to start our own brewery but we just um we could see what Hunter just been through, um and we didn't know where we were ever going to be able to get the level of money required to to establish a a a brewery. So We looked at other we looked at other options.

And I was still working at the Hahn Brewery and um you know, there were things there were things happening within that the company t under two is um that I started to find really quite interesting. Um we were doing a lot of product development work. I was being included in more of the broader scheme of things.

And I actually had um uh a lady who was the uh Val Val Flint who was the um head brewer. She'd been made head brewer at um at a point And um she pretty much said to me that what I should do is probably um uh sort of get my head out of my ass a bit and realise that you know the company that I was working for is not a bad bunch uh isn't a bad company to work for and

Maybe you should get on board. And, you know, um one thing led to another and I I sort of lost my um I I l I I lost my bulshy uh approach towards the m my my my new owners or my new boss. And um and got on board and um and quite rapidly found out that they were a good bunch of guys to work for. Um and they could see they could see stuff in me that I probably hadn't seen in myself.

Um and so I I got onto a a path of um, you know, development and I ended up um I ended up pretty much running the Hahn Brewery as um a development brewery. Um we were doing lots of things. You know, it's um you hear a lot of talk these days around seltzes. And um, you know, drinks being produced by craft breweries in the US now which are sort of like uh uh are harping back to the Alkapop sort of days.

Um, Sub Zero had been a big product for C U B at the time. Um, th they got under our guard because we had been uh doing some product development work on a product called Zema, which was coming out of cause in the US. Mm-hmm. And it was a it was a malt based um seltzer, you know, with grapefruit soda. Um alcoholic soda. And um but Sub Zero beat us a bit us to the market and they and they got a big s a big chunk of that market with that product, but

Yeah, we're doing other things. Um we're producing we're producing specialty beers, seasonal beers, Christmas beers. Um we're doing a lot of development work scaling up from the pilot plant at at to is it Lidcombe? Um we worked on products like Harn Eye. Um there were some other products but um eventually we relaunched Art Premium.

And again, um we had an opportunity to crank the the old brewery back up to full capacity and we and we did. We took We took it from almost uh a stagnating development plant um back up to a fully operational um brewery running twenty four seven producing um producing hard premium, which was the new hard premium. Um it had been um

gone through a lot of market research and we had gone into a green bottle, a wasted embossed green bottle. Um it was the first beer to have pressure sensitive labelling. Um we bought a pressure sensitive label in from the US and Um, you know, there's a lot of stuff around um the innovation on that product. Um it was it was uh a uh uh it was a serious premium lager and it actually probably the first time um anyone had put something into the market.

that was going to give um both Crown and at the time Cascade um premium a nudge and it certainly did. It became a it became a big deal, um, very quickly. So that product then was shifted to to um to two east. um and produced out at two is um Uh I went with that product um for six months. I was out there actually not on the brewing side of the business but on the packaging side because there was a lot involved in packaging that product.

And then um Chuck rang me up and said, uh come and see me. Um I've got an idea about um getting Molt Shovel the harnberry back. And um and form formulating a new um business model around the malt shovel and uh James Squire and um so I went back and we sat down and we talked through what the plan was going to be and he asked me if I wanted to come back and be the head brewer. And um I had to go back to my boss.

At two is who was the same company, but I and say, look, um, you know, um I know that I'm I'm I'm on track to go somewhere else here, but I'm I really want to get back and do what I I I got into the business to do and that was to

be operating at that level and um and to work with Chuck again for me uh was just a another brilliant opportunity and um and that's what happened. I went back and we we started the we started the Multiple So for all of uh the intellectual interest that you had in making some of these malt alternative uh beverages, uh there was still a lure of malt water hops and yeast to create beer that dragged you back.

Yeah, well you know, it it's funny, um I I look at a lot of those products, even some of the bears today, um, you know, sowers and ghosts and um you know, beers that are made out of um breakfast cereals and, you know, all the things and I

I I think I think they're a lot of fun and and I I love the level of interest that they that they bring and um and I love the fact that people love to make them and drink them but um I'm r I really am still that uh four ingredient man, you know, and um and you know, being able to make um tradition traditional styles using the, you know, malt hops, water and yeast and um just being able to manipulate those four ingredients to create the th the the different things that you can make from them.

You know, yeah, it's still and it still isn't allure for me because um although I've finished what I've been doing um in the hop industry, um I don't think I'll I don't think I'll ever really be lost to the brewing industry. This episode of Beer is a Conversation is brought to you by Unleashed Software. Unleashed is more than inventory management software.

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Do you think there's a risk that we sound cause th th th this is a conversation that I have quite a lot and uh I had it recently with Phil Sexton t talking about uh you know, Phil actually said that the craft of brewing is to make beautiful things out of those four ingredients. And whilst you're very similar to what you said, that there's a lot of fun in some of these other beers, the craft of brewing is making great beer. Um it i i is is there a risk that we sound like we're

sort of out of our a out of the present or, you know, just sort of not relevant talking about that? Or do you think that we're on a bit of a cycle that will come back? You know, so so most beer drinkers will come back to the elegance of four ingredients. Yeah, I I don't know about coming back. Um, I don't really I don't I don't really think it's ever gone that f uh I don't think we've gone that far away from it to tell you the truth.

Still some of the... the the biggest beer sales um internationally in in in the space we're in um are IPAs and the the majority of IPAs that are made um s still really focus in on what you can do um with those four ingredients. I think one of the biggest changes that we've seen um in recent times has been a move away from bittering hypothesis. um or or or where hops are used in the process. So, um I did some tasting notes yesterday for um for for some beers at the at a local brewery here.

And um I was interested to to note on a number of them was um how hoppy the the flavour and the aroma was, but there was there was very, very little um lingering hop bitterness in there and And it and it's uh the fact is that a lot of the hops that were being added to these beers are actually being added much later in the um in the process and i in some instances all of it at the very end and and even larger volumes again in in fermentation so

while we're still using the same ingredients, um, the way they're being used is is is different and It's part of the the big phenomenon now which is with the um the New England IPA, um w with this ability to sort of uh manipulate

um the ingredients and and not necessarily just be uh hundred percent barley malt but you know using other using other grains but it's producing another style and and you know, I know purist brewers who look at the the the juices and and don't like them um for whatever reason.

But uh, you know, I find I find them that if they're well executed, um, they're absolutely delicious and um You know, and that's something which is it's it's something which is new and innovative, which is which has come out of those four ingredients. Do you think those beers are a craft response to the same challenge that big brewers have found for the last twenty or thirty years and that is, you know, as as a society we are increasingly um avoiding

the the the bitter flavours of food. And so w we've seen mainstream lagers become less and less bitter and the you know the the growth of the contemporary lagers like Great Northern, um even Corona that are very low bitterness. Um do do you think that some of these uh hop aroma driven beers with low bitterness

are playing into that same trend but just in a in in a different segment? Yeah. Um I I d to tell you the truth, I don't really know. Um if someone had told me um that the the hazy um that we see today was going to be the phenomenon that's become in the US in particular. I've I a few years ago I probably wouldn't have I probably wouldn't have seen it or or or thought that it was possible but

It certainly happened. Um I know that um uh there was a time and it's not that long ago when trying to even sell hazy beer um was uh th was a struggle. Um and and uh an I an an example is um w when uh we set up the James Squire Brill House in the Portland Hotel in uh in Melbourne.

Um when we first started down there it was it wasn't a James Choir Brew House. We opened it as what was called the Melbourne Ale House. Um Two is had bought a whole stack of pubs down in Melbourne and it was part of the part of how they were going to attack the market down there and try and break um the hold that um Carlton had.

But um so we thought well we'll put this brewery into this um but you know, in into this pub but we didn't have any filtration equipment or anything and so w we were putting up beers um that we were finding um and getting some settling and and and but um putting putting uh usy beer up in fr in front of people um at that point um was still um not being met all that well by the by the general public. Um and and that wasn't you know, we're only talking two uh two thousand so um

at that point, um, you know, a l a lot of people st um probably would never have even considered drinking a Cooper's, um, for the very fact that it had a yeast in it. Um and and now, um people are falling over themselves to get to the to the next the next juicy. And although it's not use which is creating this haze, it's still a hazy it's still a hazy product.

So yeah, things things can change. Um and it you know, it's it's not that long ago is it, when you think about it, that you couldn't sell a hazy beer and now um look at it. But and and I guess uh how how much of that is the love of haze is almost a reaction against how anodyne and clear um beers became and you know, y you had beers like Cooper Sparkling that was quite hazy by comparison, but You know, people start saying well if a little haze is good, a lot of haze is a good one.

is better and just start progressing down that that path. As long as the uh in those styles, as long as the haze is actually coming from protein, I I was in a I was in a bar in uh in Portland in Oregon last year and I'm sitting there and I was I I had ordered one of these beers and I was watching the yeast flocculate out of it into the bottom of the glass while it was sitting on the counter.

and um I had to turn it in and say, you know, um, I I really don't want to drink this because what it really was is just a It it j it just looked to me as if it was a a sample that had been taken straight out out of a fermenter.

Um, so you don't really want that. But as I say, when it when that style that hazy is well executed, um and and and you get it um I I think the big problem with with that with that beer at the moment is that there are people trying to interpret the style who don't actually know the style.

And so they're they're working on, you know, what they've been told or what they've heard or or what they've seen rather than um having a number of uh good examples to work from and say, right, well this is this is um this is what this beer should be. But could they inadvertently come up with something just from e experimenting based on hearsay?

Yeah, I I I think that um you know and and you know, I had a hazy the other day that wasn't hazy and um it it tasted it it it had everything about it, um, that a hazy would have, but it didn't have any haze and I said, Well what happened? They said, Well We don't know. That just went clear. Well well I don't know. It had everything in there they thought that they should have had enough to get the the haze in it but it you know it didn't work for them.

So back to the drawing board on that. Yeah. Well speaking of back to the drawing board, let's get back to uh Chuck Hahn tapping you on the shoulder. It would have been around about nineteen ninety eight. uh when he'd convinced uh Ly. Was it Lyon in nineteen eighty eight? It probably was. It was probably still uh Castle Maine Tuies. Um no it was um at that point it was Lyon and um the guy who yeah, the guy and the guy who was the um

the chief exec at the time, a guy by the name of Gordon Cairns, um, Chuck had gone to him and said, um, with this with this idea about, you know, rather than rather than buying brand, why don't we develop our own? And um And it was You know, I I think from a from the company um perspective they um they sort of there was a lot of uh doubt amongst certain um elements within the business that you could do that.

But uh w what happened was um th they said yeah you can do it but um you've got to you've gotta be able to prove that you can do it and stand alone. So When we st when we started, although we were um the capital to s to get the brewery up and running again and and and get the branding and everything done um did come f um from the company.

the ongoing had to be that we had to actually um stand alone and do it and and that meant that we had to compete in the market against our own Guys, so Um, we were actually having our t we we we would establish a tap and we actually could have the tap knocked off by one of our own uh one somewhere within the company. So a a a two's rep could come in and and and actually take the James Square tap off and put something else in its place.

Um, I know it sounds nutty, but um we didn't even have distribution. We had to build our own distribution and um and and we started out and uh for the first two years Um it I I t for James Squire for the first two years it was a r a real slog. There was myself um Chuck and Tony Johansson was the the marketing guy. And um and we were out there um in the market and and at the same time, um, you know, there was um the Little Creatures came along in two thousand and um

And and so there were there were others out there but um we were really up against it. And in the end, um I I think Chuck just uh went to the company and said, you know

We're knocking ourselves out here and we think that um if we had a l a little bit of a hand we could probably make some some serious inroads into the market and uh he convinced them to take on distribution. And the moment we got um Lion to start distributing for us Um we could put kegs of amber ale into Tasmania and and and into uh Victoria and South Australia and Queensland and um yeah, it's everything changed.

From that point on. And a as we talk, I'm looking at a photo of uh a much younger you uh standing beside Chuck Khan. and a very young looking Rob Freshwater um raising glasses of and I'll put this in the show notes, but raising glasses of Amber Ale and I think that in itself says how different the industry is that you wouldn't see a brewery Launching with a beer like Amber Ale these days.

No and um it it it it really was um a game changer but it it it it it hadn't actually it wasn't an unproven um idea because Um New Belgium Brewing in this in the States had produced um fat tire on that same on on that same platform and um a lot about how we packaged it and um you know, the branding was different but the a lot about it was uh was similar and um

And and it the same thing happened for um for New Belgium with that product as well, you know. It sort of uh it found it it's it found its a a niche. Um, it I I think what happened with it was that a lot of people looked at the colour and and thought, Wow, I don't really think I'm gonna like that.

But when they tasted it, um, it was there was a fair bit of malt sweetness in there. It was be beautifully balanced and it had um you know, some nice citrusy notes as well. So Um yeah, it was just um It it wasn't for everybody, but it it certainly um changed it certainly changed the way um people were drinking beer in public. in Sydney and not just in Sydney but um in Melbourne uh we we got a b a a good foothold in Melbourne with that product.

And uh we just started turning up at places and um people were drinking it. So it it it's it sort of did

change a lot of things in the in the beer scene when it came out. Yeah, d tell me this because again it was one of the you know, the very early foundation beers in my experience when you go back eighteen years uh I i it was one of the first beers I wrote about, um, when I first got into writing about beer, and I remember it being an incredibly complex and I remember describing it as almost having it a sh a a shellac note because the the the molt was complex and full.

you know, twenty years on that it was w when it started, or has it gone chasing that uh palate o of a different sort of sort of consumer? Yeah, I I I can tell you that I haven't had one for quite some time. Um so I'm not really sure where it is at the moment. But even when even when we were producing it, um it was it evolved.

it it evolved as we were making it because there were things that um I I tell you something that um that happened and that was that it ha it had a uh it had a fair bit of crystal malt in it. And um and and what happens what happens with Crystal is it's it's great in uh in draft But when we wanted to go into pack, the moment you start to get a bit of age uh ox or oxidation on crystal, you you start to develop um some some less than pleasant sort of toffee note.

that you you may not necessarily want in the beer. So it starts to get a bit flabby. So what we did was um we went to Joe White Maltings and we said what we want to do is we want to try and keep the colour but we want to try and reduce the amount of crystal that we're using.

And we came up with um a an a nail malt, so which was a a derivative of a pale malt. So we had higher colour in the in the base malt, which meant that we could reduce the amount of crystal Um and when we did that we started getting m much better flavor stability in the pack and so, you know, um it it it changed it it changed the characteristics of the product. Um, but it's slowly evolved. So and I would only assume that as as the years um have gone on, um, you know, m most bees go through that.

Um I I I I quite often hear people um say to me that oh yeah, this beer doesn't taste like it used to taste but You know, can you actually can you actually remember what something tasted like? And uh I certainly don't back myself and that's what I was asking. And I you know, you you have a whole palate shift as your uh

range of beers um changes, which is uh one of the reasons I was hoping to get the a a little bit of an inside word on whether it had or not. Yeah, well I I I'm not sure but I I what I do know is that um that that that we sort of continued to um to to um to tinker with it um and others that were re that were released um as as time went on because um it's just it's just the nature of things really.

So how long were you with uh the the Molt Shovel Brewery as it was renamed? Um, I was there for eight years. I started in uh ninety eight and um I left in I started with New Zealand Hops in two thousand and six. So so what led that change? Yeah, that's uh That's that's an interesting um there's you know, there's there's a there's a lot to it. Um

Uh but it in the end it it it came down to I had been I had been the chief judge at the Bureau Awards here in um New Zealand. I I started judging in New Zealand in ninety eight with the first New Zealand Bureau Awards. And then um I ended up uh towards the end I became the the chief judge

And I used to come over here and um and then we'd do the beer judging and then I'd tackle week on. Um my wife's um uh a New Zealander And so uh she'd come over um and we'd go and have a a bit of a holiday tacked on to the end of the beer awards and w we just decided that um w when we came here we'd found somewhere that we really wanted to live. Um, but we couldn't figure out how we were gonna get here other than retire here. So

And then the the prospect of um retiring here. Um looked good, but one day I was looking through a trade magazine and there was an advert for the job that I've that I took. um advertised and um with New Zealand I

And I went home and I I I just said to Tracy, I said, um I said, you know, uh New Zealand Hops is advertising for somebody and she said, Apply And so I'm I applied and went through the interview process. Um I I had to come back and when I I did get it in the end I when I got the job had to come back and tell Chuck um that I was going and then Um, h he said, Well, you know, he he wished me well, of course, um, but uh I had to sort of um

establish or or figure out how we were going to structure the business without me there because at the time um I was involved myself and um Michael Commodon were involved in running the brew houses. Um we had uh R Rob Freshwater was was um sort of running um the operation side of the business at um malt shovel and there was a whole heap of other stuff that was going on. Um uh we'd been up and had been looking to put a brewery into the

the Clare Valley as well. Um and that that was a project that was on that was on the go at at the time. So there was a lot of things on and so I had to figure out um And and and Chuck just kept ha wanting to hang on to me and hang on to me and in the end I just said him and said, Look, Chuck, I have to go and so um Yeah. You weren't responsible for that uh brewery in the Clare Valley, uh, using Nelson Sov Sylvine Hop's Bonnie Chance, were you? Yeah, well um we did we did that um

the Knapstein lager. The f the very first Napstein lager that was produced was actually produced using one hundred percent nils and sovereign and it was um we did all the trial work at the Brill House in um in uh Melbourne at the Portland. So that's where that's where we develop that product there and then um

Uh yeah. So yeah, that was sort of like the last project I was on before I left. With your love of brewing and uh the the the the technical elements and creating beers, what was it like stepping into uh what what I

would imagine was a bit more of a a a corporate role um as head of New Zealand hops. You know, uh my time with Lion, um was an an incredible learning experience. Those guys um taught me so much. Um you couldn't you couldn't learn um what I learnt about business. Um, I don't think any other way than um than what I did. So I was actually quite prepared to go into it because I had a very, very good understanding of of of how a business should run.

Um, and I I uh you know, um so I had that I had that side of it. The the thing that I didn't have was that um I actually thought I knew a thing or two about hopes before I got here and then pretty r quickly realised that I didn't know very much about hops at all. I certainly didn't know anything about um the hop industry Oh how how hot? work. Um and and here I was stepping into which was a funny situation. Here's an Australian coming into a New Zealand um company.

um and to to take over um the running of of uh farming cooperative. Um, you know, I grew up in Sydney. Um I've always had a I've I've always had a thing for f for living I I've always wanted to live rurally but um I I'm I'm I'm I'm a city I was a city kid that um turned up in a um a rural town and Um and I had to and and plus once I was here, um, one of the reasons we came was because my daughter was starting school as well and uh we wanted her to start school um

here. So we we packed up everything we owned into a forty foot container and um and left Sydney and and arrived here and um

you know, I had to make it work. There was there was there was nothing there was nothing else I was going to be able to do. But but you also would have entered the business at an incredibly dynamic time. As you said, you didn't know uh as much about hops as you thought you did, but at the same time as an industry

we didn't know uh as much about hops and then brewers kept pushing the limits of what they wanted hops to do in a in a lot of ways. And so you've you've walked into uh a a New Zealand hop cooperative um as their head at an incredibly uh you know, dynamic time. Yeah, the the I I guess, um, at that point though, uh, New Zealand hops were um were pretty much um from an export perspective anyway, uh which was ninety percent of their business was commodity.

So we were selling um we're selling um hops as alpha acid extract into companies like Heineken, um Guinness were two major customers, um uh Molson cause in the States was probably the biggest customer. And um the idea that we could um into the US craft market, um, wasn't something that was really working uh working for

Um we couldn't even sell a hop basically in the US. We had hops up there on um in into the craft market. We had hops up there um on consignment um w with with companies that weren't necessarily um uh that um interested um, to sell hops for us because they've had their own hops to sell.

And so we had to sort of uh not only did we have to create um or rebrand ourselves to get into that market, but we had to figure out a way to get into that market as well and then also had to convince the growers that that the direction that the company needed to take because we we as commodity uh we were actually price takers um not price makers and um we needed to create um a differentiation and an a niche an a a niche product and and branding and um

It didn't just happen overnight. It took from I got here in two thousand and six And I would say that um we we changed the we we had changed the model but it took us up to probably two thousand and eleven. to to sort of crack our way into the to actually say yes, we've cracked our way into the US craft market. And what created that change?

Well, it it certainly changed the variety mix in a hurry. Um well I w I won't say in a hurry, but it certainly changed the variety mix because Um we had contracts with um with some some big companies um to for significant large volume. very risky business model because you've got a a a large proportion of your um crop

is completely contracted to just a handful of customers and um at any point if one of those customers were to say, Well, we're not going to take these hops anymore, you'd find yourself with um a a large volume of hops um unsold. So Yeah, that's sort of that's part of the business had to be de risked. And the best way to do that is to expand your customer base.

Um, but as I said, we were struggling to get into the US so What w what we did was we we actually found a way in through um homebrew. Um, I I um met a guy who was involved in in an op as operations manager um with a company called Brewcraft USA, which was a New Zealand owned company. And um we went up there and put hops on consignment into the home brew market.

And um and it's it I went up there and talked to homebrew clubs and and we went and saw homebrew shops and and got um and got New Zealand hops into the market up there. Um, at the same time we changed some of the names because they had um, you know, like one of the big varieties we grow currently is called Motuaka. Um, its previous name was Bisa. and one of our one of our agents in Europe said, um, you know, you're probably not gonna do that well trying to sell a SART

hop into Europe. Um, you should call it something different. So um we did. We we went through and we renamed some of the varieties to give them local place names. Um, which was a good strategy at the time. And um And so we got into the craft into the home brew market into the States and of course um I was fully aware that if we were to start to become popular in home brew then it wouldn't take long before it would flow on.

And um one thing led to another and that was in two thousand and eight and by two thousand and ten we had other distributors in the US and other brewers in the US coming to us saying we want to buy your hop

And it turned out that the reason it happened was because a lot of those home brewers that were using them had actually progressed into commercial brewing and had started breweries and were using um New Zealand hops and they they wanted to they wanted to continue to purchase them. So It's sort of just all boiled up um out of that until a a point um up until in recent times where we've really struggled to meet anywhere near the demand there has been for certain varieties.

That's a a a fairly long term sales strategy though, isn't it? Uh sort of targeting home brewers hoping that there'll be sort of a demand led drive for for for beer and then having that secondary flow on of the home brewers going pro. Um And it w was that an intended plan or was it just a like a happy uh accident or a serend serendipitous uh result?

I had thought that that would work. Um it was it it was um it was actually a mapped out strategy. Um d the the the beauty of it was Um where we were going into was into um the warehouse was in Portland in Oregon. Um and there was uh you know there's just a massive amount of activity and chatter around there at anything that was new and and I knew that once we started some chatter

Because you know, the hops speak for themselves. Um, they are really quite extraordinary and they are different. Um, they're they're a completely different offering than anything you'll get anywhere else and that's what we had to That's what we had to sell. And the best way to to get the chatter and to get that up and and people talking about it was to actually um

what was to to hit a market like that. And um it didn't take long. We we had homebrew shops on the east coast, um, taking them Um and then the moment the moment we had one or two of the bigger distributors take an interest, um, we knew then that we would be able to start writing contracts and that's all you really need. Get some forward contracts in place, um, get your pricing set.

get get people i interested and once it and once it it all started it was just it just all snowballed then. And you know, a lot of people said, Well, that was lucky and I said, Well, you know, w a lot of the luck um we made ourselves. So

Um yeah. But it's been it's it it has actually been um quite a successful um story for the hop industry here. And and and what has that meant for the New Zealand brewing scene and the the the New Zealand hop growing scene? Up until fairly recently, um the the industry was just ticking along. Um, there wasn't a huge amount of growth. Um, but in a in a very short period of time, um, the the industry itself

uh has developed, it's had new entrants come in, it's not just the cooperative anymore. There's um there's other there's overseas investment has come in, other investment companies have come in and and um and and other private equity guys have come in. So there's um there's a whole lot more uh there's been a whole lot more money has been um sunk into the industry, a whole lot more land has been converted to hot

Um a lot of equipment has been has been imported, picking and harvesting. There's been a it's it's been um a massive um increase. So it's it's it's almost doubled in size in the last four years.

What are the exciting uh develop what are the developments that we should look forward to in New Zealand hops over the coming years? Uh we we've we've seen a rapid increase in

Yeah, uh breeding programs for example. What's what are the ex uh the exciting hops that are coming out of those? Well the you know, the the whole thing has always been um has always been based in in the breeding program. Um And so it's almost in it's almost impossible to to be in this business and and not have and not have a breeding program. Um and so d d there will be n there are new varieties coming down th the the pipeline. One of the things we did with the breeding program, um

in our in our last round um of the programme was we installed a um we installed a a small brewery um in i in the research station itself. So Uh what used to happen was that um you would you would brew hops and and you would look at agronomics and you'd there was a lot of things that you would sort of be be studying before you actually made beer with them. Um and what we did was we fast tracked that we would grow seedlings and we still do. Um the programme still does.

um grow seedlings and brew beer with the seedlings immediately. So you and then put'em through sensory and if if things stand out at that point then you can start looking at other things. But what it does is it it cuts it it cuts time out of it because a variety like um Nelson Sovern um was almost twenty years in the development. Um and what you wanna do is you you wanted to get your brooding program down or your brooding um lines down to

you know, ten to twelve years would be would be really good. Um And you can do that if you're if you're already convinced that that that the that the hops themselves um have that special thing that you're looking for um very early in the stage. Knowing that y what you're producing has got something that brewers want. early early in the process.

Um and then you can have a look to see um what its picking window is and what the agronomics are like and and all the other things that you have to look for um in a breeding programme. But you're starting you're starting with a view that y that's already it's already going to be something that you're going to be able to make some pretty interesting beer with or some great beers with. At least on the surface there are certain parallels between Nelson Sovin and Galaxy in terms of

having uh a breakthrough rock star hop that creates a lot of noise and attention and focus. for what else is happening. Is that a a a a a a fair observation? Yeah, and um it's interesting the the parallels um are uh very much the same because b both were initially bred to be um alpha varieties. So it wasn't it wasn't until people started brewing with them and and I know that when um when people first started brewing with Nelson Soven, um d there was a lot of people just didn't like it.

Because it was just too it was just too different. Um and so and that was back in say two thousand. So It's it's sort of only just hit its straps in the market probably around about two thousand and fourteen, two thousand and fifteen when people started to really stand up and take note.

And and Galaxy was very much the same. It was produced as a an an alpha variety in the breeding programme and it wasn't until they started brewing with it and then and they realised that it had this incredible um flavour and aroma um profile characteristic. Um and has now become um you know uh part of a uh of a whole new brand uh a whole new bear style. Um so It's been it's been pretty pretty amazing.

Looking at uh Doug Donald has stepped back from uh New Zealand hops, what's uh what what's next for Doug Donald? Um, well at the moment, um, I'm gonna take a break for a while and see um what retirement feels like. Um Will you break out the brew kit? I'm certainly going to break out my home brew kit. That's um that's one of the things I'm going to do.

Um, there's lots of things that that um I I like to do along those lines though. Um I like I like to make cider. Um I've got a bit of a thing for wine as well. So there'll b hopefully um as as my retirement progresses um I'll be able to turn my hand to more and more um, you know, making making my own beer and wine and and things. I'll probably do some cheese. as well. Um I'm I'm I hope to keep my hand in, um as also professionally, but um I'm not I I I'm I I don't have any real um wish

to get back into the hurly burly of um of corporate management. Um and uh and travel. I I've over the last twelve um almost thirteen years, um I've done a lot of travel. I've been away from home from three to four months in total every year. Um and although it's been great I've got to go to some great places and and and I I enjoy it. Um it loses its gloss quite a bit. Um and I just

really wanna spend some time around my house and do some do some restoration work around it. Um I like cars and motorbikes so I've got um I've got some ideas around some things that I wanna do there. Um Yeah. Fish. I live on a beach. So, um I've got access to I've got access to um to fishing any time I want to do that. So I just wanna I just wanna um

I I I I spoke with um you you would know Bill Taylor. Hm from Y Yeah, okay. So I was speaking to Bill um recently'cause I was up in I was up judging um in Japan. at um the International Beer Cup and Bill was there judging as well. And um he described that uh when he when he first um left line that um it was uh a recalibration So that's what that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to I'm going to calibrate, um or recalibrate and um and have a look at some things but

Um yeah, I'm I hope to keep my hand in um somewhere. Um even I could be in I could come back and be involved in hops again, um b or even uh in brewing but Um I'm I'm certainly uh want to take a more um relaxed approach. A lot of our listeners are aspiring brewers. They uh that they love beer, they love the industry, they've got dreams of opening a brewery.

Uh we we could take your thirty odd years of i experience. What advice would you give to somebody who is thinking of getting into the industry or starting up a brewery? Listen. Listen to other people. it's everything you know, you you're not born with with all this knowledge that you that you accumulate over the time. It's it all comes it all comes handed down from somebody else or you pick it up from somebody. Most of it comes from somebody else and um

Uh one of the things that um w I really love doing is I love to uh judge bear and I've been a member of um on on juries at the Wellbeer Cup um and to sit around a table With other brewing people or experts in their field on different beer styles and there's Uh you can you can share a lot of your own information, but one of the things one of the great things is to listen to what other people have have got and and know and and um y you know, uh um

Yeah, listening's listening's a a a skill that um I certainly didn't have when I was younger. Um but it's something that it um it's something that you can actually hone and develop and uh yeah, I've become a much better listener and I I think The sooner the people um learn to hone that skill, um, the more successful they're going to be. In in in in lots of different things, not just in not just in brewing but uh in business and in life.

Oh well, Doug Donald, that's as good a place as any to leave it. I could uh chat for a whole lot more, maybe we'll get you on uh a again very soon to pick up some of the uh the the other threads you've talked about. But

For this conversation. Thank you very much for joining us. Uh congratulations on a on a terrific career and thank you very much for this wonderful conversation. No, it was great talking to you, Matt. Thanks for thanks for reaching out and um and asking me to come on anyway. That was great. And that was Doug Donaldin. Don't forget if you like what we do at Radio Brews News, you can help us out in a number of ways.

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